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michaelconvert
03-20-2007, 04:58 AM
i sent this to my principle because our administrators wont let us observe the prayer times during school
im not sure what to do


Hello I am a student at NLRHS West. My friend Aman and I have recently converted to Islam. We asked Ms Coleman one day before school if we would be allowed to pray during the school day. She said that it would be ok for us to pray if we got permission from our teachers. Aman and I did get permission and that day we went to pray at the required time. In all we probably missed about 5 minutes of class. The next day Aman spoke with Ms Coleman and she said that it was brought up at a meeting and she was told that we could not pray anymore. Her reasoning was that if we are allowed to pray, then the Christians will want to pray during school. Well this reasoning is completely illogical because the Christians are not required to pray very specific times of the day. One day I came to school and there was a huge wooden cross outside and people were signing it. We aren’t asking to erect a golden idol, we are simply asking for 5 minutes to observe the time. I hope that you can understand our situation. I have no want for this to be made into a spectacle that is why I am simply sending you an email. Please respond back to this email.

Thank you
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جوري
03-20-2007, 05:11 AM
Dear Bro. Michael.. is there a way you can make prayers on your own private time in school and not take away from class time so they won't give you grieve over this? You can make fajr prayer at home and maybe noon prayer during lunch time?... I think school would pretty much be over by Asr especially with the changes in day lights savings time?-- I don't see how they can forbid you from making prayers-- all you really need is a private room... There is such a thing as freedom of religion in this country or so we'd like to think.. and I don't see how they can forbid you from making your prayers if they can't find a good excuse.. for instance they can say it is taking away from class time but if you are doing it during lunch.. I don't see how they can stop you..... if all else fails there is some excellent parochial Islamic schools that you might want to transfer to... for instance the king Fahd Academy in England or
http://www.4islamicschools.org/
in united states
fi aman illah
May G-D guide you and help you stay the course
Reply

michaelconvert
03-20-2007, 05:19 AM
Yes the only prayer during school is Zhur
but i am not at lunch during this time
and transfer is simply not a possibility

i just dont see what i can do
i am almost certain that they will not accept this
i use to pray zhur during my lunch but because of the time change it is no longer during my lunch



but thanks for trying to help

the Qur'an tells us not to obey the unbelievers
i shouldn’t have to answer to them
with matters of prayer i should only have to answer to Allah
Reply

syilla
03-20-2007, 06:31 AM
^^^is there any muslims at your school?

what about any muslims society at your place? maybe you ask them for help.
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Ismahaan
03-20-2007, 07:27 PM
I hope the email convinces your principal to let you pray at school. If he/she doesn't let you, get in touch with one of your school governers because they could fight on your behalf. Every school holds a board meeting every month (I think), so you should make your views known then.

We all went through this at some stage I think. In high school we were allowed to pray only during Ramadan, at lunchtime only. May Allah help you.
Reply

siFilam
03-20-2007, 07:37 PM
:salamext:
wow, Masahallah brother. May Allah, The Exalted, make it easy for you. Inshallah I'll remember to keep in my Du'a.
-SI-
Reply

'Abd al-Baari
03-20-2007, 07:44 PM
:sl:

I understand your views bro, even though about 30% of my school population is muslim we are not allowed to pray during lesson times (probably because about 99% of the muslims aren't too bothered). Try talking to some of your R.E teachers who will know the importance of offering prayer, maybe they can help you. Or as Sister Sylia said try asking the school governors or maybe a local councilor who is muslim or the local muslim community

May Allah SWT make it easy for you......Ameen
Reply

H4RUN
03-20-2007, 08:42 PM
:sl: bro:)
Yeah best bet is to ask for permission to use a small room, even a sports hall or anything...After all you dont need much space if there aren't many of you praying....

Depending on how long your lunch break is maybe you can try to fit it into there much like myself... Although you may find you'll have a tad less time to 'socializzze' at lunch time..but atleast you'll get your zuhr prayers done:)

10 minutes out of an hour or so is quite reasonable:)
Good luck dude, and nicely written letter:D
:w:
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-20-2007, 08:47 PM
Michael,
You didn't say where you are from and if there are other Muslim students in your school, but I am thinking that perhaps you are from the USA and there are not. You didn't say the size of your school either. I know that is not relevant to your situation, but it could be pertinent to finding an effective way for getting you some relief.

Curiously, I am going to suggest to you that you seek the Christians of your school and community to lend you support. One of the things that Christians feel is very important, is the ability to freely practice their faith without interference. Whenever the school limits your freedom to practice Islam, it is also a threat to their freedom to practice Christianity. While not all people will be wise enough to see that, you will find some who will. Search them out and enlist their support.

As you do this, at the same time be wise yourself as to how you conduct yourself. For instance, if you tell a teacher or a prinicipal:

"the Qur'an tells us not to obey the unbelievers
i shouldn’t have to answer to them
with matters of prayer i should only have to answer to Allah"

You may find yourself making enemies of the very people you need to be your friends. No school administrator likes to be told by a student that you don't have to answer to them. They like to think that they are in charge within the building.

I think you did well in your first approach. That the answer you were first given was later reconsidered by others tells me that they are fearful primarily of something growing larger than their ability to handle it. Fear is always best overcome with education. Help them to see the difference you stated here, that Christians are not told that they must pray at a specific time, and thus such a request from Christians could be addressed differently. But in a secular world with school's trying to deal with many different religions, sometimes what they will do is simply say NO to all religions as the easiest way.

Also, every school I know has some time during the school year when they try to address diversity within the school. Often this is in the form of talking about ethnic diversity. I know that the foreign exchange students we have hosted were always sought by the various schools they attended to help by sharing about their resepctive cultures. But religious diveristy is also worthy studying. You might even go so far as to speak with the principal, dean of students, or guidance counselor (whoever has that responsibiltiy for planning this in your school) and volunteer to help educate the student body with respect to some of the key aspects of Islam. I can't imagine that they wouldn't take you up on this. And when they do, one of the things you can talk about is the importance of prayer in your daily life. Imagine that they would ask you to make a presentation to the entire student body, you shared this, but then were not allowed to actually practice it? They would change the rules that very day, I promise you.

But, also be patient. Try to understand as much as you can from the administration's perspective. If you engage in confrontation, you will teach them to erect barriers and defend themselves. But if you come alongside them, they will see in you someone with whom they can work toward mutually acceptable solutions. That is the way you want to go.

Also, a nicely worded letter. Though, if you haven't sent it yet, I might suggest not including the references to erecting a golden idol.
Reply

aamirsaab
03-20-2007, 10:51 PM
:sl:
It is actually permissible to join up dhur and asr prayer, so you could in effect pray these two namaz at home, after your classes have ended.

The email you have written up is good so far, but perhaps it would be best to speak to the principle in person?
Reply

Khalisah
03-21-2007, 01:58 AM
:sl:
I'm sorry to hear that your finding it difficult to pray at school, your email seems pretty good.. but would a letter have been better?.. as in more formal, or were trying to be casual? or maybe thats how things are done these days, and its just me who still prefers 'letters in envelopes' lol.. anyhow hope it works out for u InshaAllah..
Reply

michaelconvert
03-21-2007, 02:04 AM
Yeah ive spoken with a brother at the Masjid who works for the state. He said that if i could give him the info that he would call the school board. I just didnt want him to have to do that. I dont want to make a spectacle out of this.

and i love the line about erecting a golden idol
thats my favorite part
and i already sent it

she hasnt replied yet but i will post if and when she does


and how do you combine asr and zhur
Reply

Student1
03-21-2007, 07:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by michaelconvert
i sent this to my principle because our administrators wont let us observe the prayer times during school
im not sure what to do


Hello I am a student at NLRHS West. My friend Aman and I have recently converted to Islam. We asked Ms Coleman one day before school if we would be allowed to pray during the school day. She said that it would be ok for us to pray if we got permission from our teachers. Aman and I did get permission and that day we went to pray at the required time. In all we probably missed about 5 minutes of class. The next day Aman spoke with Ms Coleman and she said that it was brought up at a meeting and she was told that we could not pray anymore. Her reasoning was that if we are allowed to pray, then the Christians will want to pray during school. Well this reasoning is completely illogical because the Christians are not required to pray very specific times of the day. One day I came to school and there was a huge wooden cross outside and people were signing it. We aren’t asking to erect a golden idol, we are simply asking for 5 minutes to observe the time. I hope that you can understand our situation. I have no want for this to be made into a spectacle that is why I am simply sending you an email. Please respond back to this email.

Thank you
Hello everyone, as you can see I am new here.

My Friend,
I am assuming that you are going to a school in the U.S. and I hate to sound insensative, but even as a Christian I believe there should be absolutely no religion in the U.S. public school system. Whether its actual teaching about a particular religion or praying on public school grounds. None of that should be authorized at least in my opinion. That is why we have seperation of Church and State. However there is some usefull information that you might be able to use to convince your teachers to authorize time and space that you wish for so you can conduct your prayer. Hope this link helps. Make sure you also see page 2.

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org...-in-school.htm
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-21-2007, 08:42 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

Brother Michael and Aman, Your letter seems pretty good. I faced the same problems at college back in the days. I think you should ask him for a meeting. Maybe send him the letter but only stating briefly what you want to talk to him about.

Explain to him why it is important for Muslim to pray 5 times a day. Maybe put quotes from the Quran and Hadiths (Saying od the Prophet Muhammad pbuh).

Insha Allah it will go all well :)


aamirsaab

:sl: aamirsaab

It is actually permissible to join up dhur and asr prayer, so you could in effect pray these two namaz at home, after your classes have ended.
What is your dalil fot this Akhi? I've never heard that before. The whole earth is a prayer for the Muslim what is the need for him/her missing her salaah that it should be joined up at home? :?
Reply

aamirsaab
03-21-2007, 10:25 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
.....
:sl: aamirsaab



What is your dalil fot this Akhi? I've never heard that before.
I don't have specific dalil sorry, but this is what I was taught at mosque.

The whole earth is a prayer for the Muslim what is the need for him/her missing her salaah that it should be joined up at home? :?
The point I was trying to make was that should he not be able to pray in school, then by the time school finishes he could go home and pray his salah there. Infact, given that asr (in leicester at least) is at around quarter past 5 (that's like an hour and a bit after secondary schools close) , michael could indeed pray his full dhur (though late) and then be on time for asr at home (or of he lives close enough to a mosque he may perform his salah there).

To join up your dhur and asr, basically you just pray dhur namaz, and then pray your asr after it.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
03-21-2007, 11:24 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum


I don't know where the people of that Masjid got their dalil from but my reading
It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to delay an obligatory prayer beyond the proper time, rather every accountable Muslim man and woman is obliged to perform the prayers on time as much as they can.
If you're talking about delaying the prayer before its time has ended and before the time for the next prayer comes then thats a different issue.

More http://www.islammessage.com/htm/bb/17.htm

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=65605&ln=eng

It is not permissible for a Muslim to delay his prayer until after the time for it has ended, unless he has an excuse. Among the excuses which are acceptable according to sharee’ah are: sleeping and forgetting. Doing worldly tasks is not an excuse for not praying or for delaying the prayer until the time for it has passed. Rather one of the attributes of the sincere believers is that they do not led trade or selling distract them from remembering Allaah and establishing regular prayer.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“In houses (mosques) which Allaah has ordered to be raised (to be cleaned, and to be honoured), in them His Name is remembered [i.e. Adhaan, Iqaamah, Salaat (prayers), invocations, recitation of the Qur’aan]. Therein glorify Him (Allaah) in the mornings and in the afternoons or the evenings,

37. Men whom neither trade nor sale (business) diverts from the remembrance of Allaah (with heart and tongue) nor from performing As‑Salaat (Iqaamat‑as‑Salaat) nor from giving the Zakaat. They fear a Day when hearts and eyes will be overturned (out of the horror of the torment of the Day of Resurrection).

38. That Allaah may reward them according to the best of their deeds, and add even more for them out of His Grace. And Allaah provides without measure to whom He wills”

[al-Noor 24:36-38]

Allaah warns His slaves against letting their wealth and children distract them from obeying and remembering Him, and He tells them that whoever does that are the true losers, and it is not as those imagine who neglect their religious commitment for the sake of work, worldly interests and the desire for immediate gain.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Let not your properties or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allaah. And whosoever does that, then they are the losers”

[al-Munaafiqoon 63:9]

Will the losers in fact have any fate other than that of the leaders of kufr, who neglect religion for the sake of greed for worldly gains?

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned prayer one day and said: “Whoever observes it regularly, it will be light and a proof and salvation on the Day of Resurrection, and whoever does not observe it regularly, it will not be a light or a proof or salvation for him, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be with Qaroon, Pharaoh, Hamaan and Ubayy ibn Khalaf.” Narrated by Ahmad, 6540; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Mishkaat al-Masaabeeh.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

These four people are mentioned because they are the leaders of kufr. This makes an important point about the one who does not observe regular prayer, whether that is because he is distracted by his wealth, his power, his position of leadership or his business. The one who is distracted from it by his wealth will be with Qaroon; the one who is distracted by his power will be with Pharaoh; the one who is distracted by his position of leadership will be with Hamaan and the one who is distracted by his business will be with Ubayy ibn Khalaf.”

Al-Salaah wa Hukm Taarikuhu, 1/63.

What makes matters even worse is thinking of not fasting because of not praying.

Allaah indeed has spoken the truth when he said (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan), then, verily, he commands Al‑Fahsha’ [i.e. to commit indecency (illegal sexual intercourse)], and Al‑Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; and to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islam)]. And had it not been for the Grace of Allaah and His Mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins. But Allaah purifies (guides to Islam) whom He wills, and Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower”

[al-Noor 24:21]

Look at how the Shaytaan has tricked you into forsaking the foundation of faith, the second pillar of Islam after the Shahaadatayn, which is the prayer, then he has tricked you into forsaking another pillar, and another and another. There is no power and no strength except with Allaah.

It is your responsibility to find a way to re-build the religious commitment which you have destroyed by forsaking prayer, not to destroy an act of religious commitment that you are doing at present. How could any wise person think of such a thing?

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fulfil the Covenant of Allaah (Bai‘ah: pledge for Islam) when you have covenanted, and break not the oaths after you have confirmed them — and indeed you have appointed Allaah your surety. Verily, Allaah knows what you do.

92. And be not like her who undoes the thread which she has spun, after it has become strong, by taking your oaths as a means of deception among yourselves, lest a nation should be more numerous than another nation. Allaah only tests you by this (i.e. who obeys Allaah and fulfils Allaah’s Covenant and who disobeys Allaah and breaks Allaah’s Covenant). And on the Day of Resurrection, He will certainly make clear to you that wherein you used to differ (i.e. a believer confesses and believes in the Oneness of Allaah and in the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad which the disbeliever denies and that is their difference amongst them in the life of this world)”

[al-Nahl 16:91-92]

Shaykh al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This includes everything that a person has pledged to do of acts of worship, vows and oaths, because fulfilling them is an act of righteousness. “And be not” – in your breaking of your pledge – like the worst of examples, namely the woman who undoes her thread after making it strong.

Yes, as you say, prayer is more important than fasting, and it is the best of the deeds that Allaah has enjoined upon His slaves. Because of that we say: pray and remain steadfast in your fasting, and do not falter in that.

Your work may make it difficult, or you may lose your job because of it, but all that you should care about is your religion, your religion, your religion. It is more precious than your flesh and blood.

May Allaah help you and us to do that which He loves and which pleases Him.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.
Islam Q&A
http://islamqa.com/special/index.php...site=16&ln=eng
Reply

Duhaa
03-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Combining two prayers I heard is only allowed during Hajj.

That is Zuhr and Asar in Arafat (9th).
Then Maghrib and Isha in Muzdalifah (Same day).

Anyways, that was just a 'by the way' thing. What I got taught.... :)

About praying in school, I think its so great that so many Muslims do actually want to pray at school.
Talking from experience, at my secondary school, in England, so the equivalent of High School in America....there were majority Muslims but like someone else has mentioned, many of them weren't bothered so when we did ask, the teachers could say -well, what about the rest of the Muslims- basically, how come they're ALL not asking...?

Anyways, I'm sure you want to hear of successes :) so there is a good ending albeit kinda late for me coz it happened after I left....
Muslims raised money, can't remember how much but it was a lot, and with the permission of the head, governors, etc, a building was made with wudhu facilities and a separate area to pray for girls and boys....

So don't give up hope and well done for trying! :)
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-21-2007, 04:49 PM
The following appears to be the pertinent part of the law with respect to your case:

Prayer in School - Accommodation of Prayer During Instructional Time

It has long been established that schools have the discretion to dismiss students to off-premises religious instruction, provided that schools do not encourage or discourage participation in such instruction or penalize students for attending or not attending. Similarly, schools may excuse students from class to remove a significant burden on their religious exercise, where doing so would not impose material burdens on other students. For example, it would be lawful for schools to excuse Muslim students briefly from class to enable them to fulfill their religious obligations to pray during Ramadan.

Where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of nonreligious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment. In addition, in some circumstances, based on federal or state constitutional law or pursuant to state statutes, schools may be required to make accommodations that relieve substantial burdens on students' religious exercise. Schools officials are therefore encouraged to consult with their attorneys regarding such obligations.
Since you have the specific mention of the example of prayer during Ramadan, it seems you are halfway home. All that you need to do is show that the prayers that are specifically mentioned in the law with regard to Ramadan are obligatory throughout the year, not just during Ramadan. Thus the same provisions that the law stipulates could (and should) be made for you at that time also apply throughout the rest of the year.

Now, how do you make your case?
You've already sent an email to your principal, and are presently waiting a response. Give her about 2 weeks. If you still haven't heard, or if you hear negatively, then request a conference.
1) Go in person with your parents.
2) Take with you a copy of the law (not just this bit from a website, but try to find the actual law). If that wording of the law is unclear, then also take a copy of the article Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary & Secondary Schools (copyright, Jay Sekulow, www.ACLJ.org, February 7, 2003) and highlight the appropriate passages. Here is a link to it: Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary & Secondary Schools article on the American Center for Law and Justice website.
3) Take a letter from the Imam at your local mosque stating that the prayer AND the time of the prayer you are wanting to pray is obligatory.

In your conversation, be clear that you are not asking for special treatment. You are just wanting to exercise your rights to practice your faith without either the support nor the interference of the state. If they bring up other groups, don't even enter into that debate. You are not trying to write new policy, and you are not asking for the school to do or not do anything in regard to other groups, you are simply focused on the free exercise of your own religious faith. Mixing other groups in to a discussion of how they are going to deal with your request may seem reasonable, I am sure it really will to the school's administrators who know that if they grant this for you that they will get asked to do other things for others, but it really is irrelevant to the nature and proper disposition of your petition. Also irrelevant is whether or not they have had gatherings around crosses on the school grounds unless it was during the instructional time for students.

Remember that you are appealing to one who must exercise her authority according to statute. Thus your primary appeals need to be to the law that she must enforce, not to the Qur'an. Appeals to the Qur'an should be done not to prove that you have a right to something (remember you are not under sharia law in the USA), but that this is indeed an integral part of your faith and that school policies which either prohibit or inhibit you from practicing it are contrary to the US Constitutional provisions of the establishment clause for the free exercise of religion in the United States.

The law is on your side in this case. So, you don't have to make a spectacle at all. Just stand up for yourself and all should go well. If it doesn't, and here knowing a little bit about your local community's history would be very advisable, then you can literally make a federal case out of it by going to the supreme court.

The reason I cite your local community's history is that it is in Little Rock that the historic case ordering the desegregation of America's public schools took place in the 1950s. I imagine that people will be very senstitive to anyone who tries to demand their rights in your public schools. Some will be overly sensitive to do whatever to make sure that they never infringe on a student's rights again. Others will be just the opposite, looking for any fight they can not so much because they are against you, but 50 years laters still angry over what happened the first time.

Knowing the past, that's where you need to be careful about lines like the golden idol. It was cute. But by some it would be seen as being a smart-aleck and inflammatory. Such words said to the wrong person might be the equivalent of making a cute point, just to ultimately dig a hole for yourself. Perhaps you've heard the expressiion: "cut off your nose to spite your face"? Be careful to avoid saying anything that would produce that sort experience for you.
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michaelconvert
03-21-2007, 09:28 PM
Wow thats a lot of info......... but thanks. The problem is that my parents cant come. They dont know im a Muslim and i would be in a much worse position if they did. The principal (who is a she) hasnt responded yet. This next week will be spring break so if she doesnt reply by the end of spring break i will have a brother from the masjid contact them .

and again thanks a lot for the info

salaam
Reply

Grace Seeker
03-21-2007, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by michaelconvert
Wow thats a lot of info......... but thanks. The problem is that my parents cant come. They dont know im a Muslim and i would be in a much worse position if they did. The principal (who is a she) hasnt responded yet. This next week will be spring break so if she doesnt reply by the end of spring break i will have a brother from the masjid contact them .

and again thanks a lot for the info

salaam

Michael,
If your parents don't know, that is a red flag to me. Don't get me wrong, even though I would be upset if one of my children were to become Muslim (and by the way, one of my children is and I love her just the same), I can still respect that it is your decision and not your parent's decision to make in that regard. But Islam is not a purely private religion. One practices it in public. Imagine if you were a girl, would you not wear the Hijab at home, and only put it on after you left the house? Can you see how that would be duplicitous, and really miss the whole point of what being Islam is all about? So, to if you are willing to practice your faith in public at school because a good Muslim would not skip on the prayers, but at home you are not even willing to let it be known to your family that you believe it.

Not being versed in all things Muslim, I cannot refer you to the specifc verse, but I do believe it is written, that according to Muhammad, Allah has made it forbidden to disobey your mothers. Perhaps you feel that keeping a secret is not the same as disobedience. But if you have to hide it, I sense that you know your parents would disapprove. So, I don't see much difference.

Worse that than. What I see is one who wants to be a Muslim only where it is convenient for him. You may wonder why I accuse you of such a thing when you are obviously having to make some sacrifices with regard to school, but unless you are willing to live for Allah in all things, to me you might as well live for Allah in no thing. According to Muhammud after the age of 14 you are a man. You are responsible for your own decisions. If you want to be a Muslim be one. If you want to be a child, then listen to your parents.
Reply

michaelconvert
03-22-2007, 01:48 AM
Well im glad i dont have to wear hijab then. Ive never told my parents that i wasnt muslim. They have never asked. If they do ill probably try to change the subject but if it came down to that id tell them. But you dont really know my parents. I still pray in my room and hope that they dont try to come in while im doing it.

And yes you should respect your mother but let me refer you to the story of Mus'ab. His mother went crazy on him. If im remembering the story correctly.
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michaelconvert
04-06-2007, 10:01 PM
The principle gave me permission to do salat! Humdulilah

I was called to her office today and spoke with her about it. She told me that as long as i didnt make a big deal out of it everything would be fine with her.

thank Allah

salaam
Reply

'Abd al-Baari
04-06-2007, 10:04 PM
:sl:

Subhanallah :):)
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-06-2007, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by michaelconvert
The principle gave me permission to do salat! Humdulilah

I was called to her office today and spoke with her about it. She told me that as long as i didnt make a big deal out of it everything would be fine with her.

thank Allah

salaam

:sl:

Masha Allah!!!

That is good news Brother. Alhamdulilaah! Allah always opens a door/away for his slaves.
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