English schools allowed to ban full-face veils

[sonz]

Schools in England will be able to ban female Muslim students from wearing full-face veil, or Niqab, under new uniform guidelines to be published on Tuesday, officials said.

The guidance paper from the Department for Education and Skills (DFES) allows school head teachers to determine what pupils should and shouldn’t wear in class, a DEFS spokesman said.

Although the guidance paper states that efforts must be made to accommodate religious clothing, it stresses the importance of teachers and students being able to make eye contact.

"They should have regard to a range of religions and try to accommodate them where possible," the spokesman said. "But what we are saying in the guidance is that safety, security and the ability to learn is paramount."

The uniform guidelines come after a British Muslim girl, aged 12, lost a legal battle to be allowed to wear the full-face veil in school.

Correspondents say Shabina Begum's case has prompted the updated guidance.

Begum’s lawyers had argued that the veil ban violated her right to freedom of “thought, conscience and religion” under Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights. But her school said the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.

This position was upheld by the High Court, which refused to grant a judicial review, and is expected to form a key part of the new uniform guidance, which states that schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and spot intruders.

"If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.

The DEFS says it isn’t ordering head teachers to ban the Niqab, but confirming that they have the authority to do so if the wish. It also says schools should consult with parents, governors and the local community on uniform policy before making any decisions.

The guidance also reiterates the right of schools to discipline pupils for not wearing the proper uniform.

“Shocking”

The Islamic Human Rights Commission described the new guidance as "shocking".

"Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf,” said chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission Massoud Shadjareh.

“To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he added.

The Muslim Council of Britain has already urged schools to take into account Muslim pupils' needs to dress modestly and avoid tight-fitting or transparent garments.

Ayshah Ishmael, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the Niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC that wearing the veil promoted equality.

"You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue,” she said.

The Niqab has been a hot political debate in the UK since senior minister Jack Straw said last October that the veil makes community relations "more difficult."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair joined the debate by describing the Niqab as a “mark of separation”, and saying that veiled women make others feel “uncomfortable”.

The remarks prompted some Muslim groups to accuse the government of creating an atmosphere of Islamophobia.

Trevor Phillips, the head of Britain's race relations watchdog, the Commission for Racial Equality, warned at the time that the debate was growing ugly and could trigger riots.

He said Britons were becoming increasingly polarized along racial and religious lines, and risk fueling unrest if they don't discuss their differences respectfully.

-- AJP and Agencies

[Umar001]

I think they should just have Muslim schools, of course non Muslims wouldnt want a face veil. I mean, surely Muslims can understand that.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ yea cause their perverted.


But i agree, we should just have lots of islamic schools. Non-Muslim schools teach too many anti islamic thoughts anyway!

[siFilam]

British Prime Minister Tony Blair joined the debate by describing the Niqab as a “mark of separation”, and saying that veiled women make others feel “uncomfortable”.

:? Maybe they feel insecure about themselves thats why they feel uncomfortable.

Alhamdullilah, in the US they haven't tried anything against Niqab yet. But I'm sure in their heart they despise it and if they could do something about it they would. But I've been wearing the Niqab to my university for years now and I haven't received any negative reactions. Alhamdulilah.
-SI-

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[strider]

Sheesh, this isn't an attack on Islam rather a review of practical considerations within schools. I can't see many schools actually wanting to pay out a £££ lawsuit because a niqab caught fire during a chemistry experiment.

[aLiTTLeTiMe]

:? Maybe they feel insecure about themselves thats why they feel uncomfortable.

Alhamdullilah, in the US they haven't tried anything against Niqab yet. But I'm sure in their heart they despise it and if they could do something about it they would. But I've been wearing the Niqab to my university for years now and I haven't received any negative reactions. Alhamdulilah.
-SI-

Masallah it is so nice..but turkey is muslim country,but nobady is wearing th hijab.so bad :(

[vpb]

don't worry, the time will come when the people who support anti-niqab rule , will cry on the ground so they can send their kids to madrasa, even their kids are not muslims :)

[NoName55]

how much you all know on fiqh of hijaab?Any difference in hijaab and niqaab?

[vpb]

i know for sure that hijab is compulsory :)

[MTAFFI]

^ yea cause their perverted.


But i agree, we should just have lots of islamic schools. Non-Muslim schools teach too many anti islamic thoughts anyway!

We are perverted because we are trying to ensure our security?

Yes you should have more islamic schools, then you wouldnt have this issue

[DAWUD_adnan]

i heard they did it for security reasons, could perhaps be reasonable....

[siFilam]

how much you all know on fiqh of hijaab?Any difference in hijaab and niqaab?

Hijab is Fard and Niqab is wajib.

"Imam Abu-Hanifa (Rahmatullah alaih)- the face and palms is excluded from hijaab but the condition is there should be no fear of fitna. The Hanafi Jurists have said due to the immorality of times and weakness of resistance, it is compulsory for a female to cover her face which is the

focus of her beauty.

Imam Shaf’ie, Imam Malik and Imam Ahmed (Rahmatullah alaih) –It is not permissible for a lady to expose her face and palms whether there is danger of fitna or not. "
Askimam.com Fatwa # 13998

anyways, face is the focus of beauty so its necessary to wear niqab. I know I started wearing Niqab because I always receive compliments, especially about my simile. so i thought it would be appropriate to wear Niqab since I went to university.
-SI-

[MTAFFI]

don't worry, the time will come when the people who support anti-niqab rule , will cry on the ground so they can send their kids to madrasa, even their kids are not muslims :)

i seriously doubt that, although if this keeps up Muslims may see a day when they cry and wish their children could attend public schools

[NoName55]

^^^did not know there were squads of primary school niqaabis on osama payroll threatening your security

[MTAFFI]

^^^did not know there were squads of primary school niqaabis on osama payroll threatening your security

are you saying that terrorist wouldnt attack a school, or cant disguise themselves in a niqab?

[siFilam]

i seriously doubt that, although if this keeps up Muslims may see a day when they cry and wish their children could attend public schools

I highly doubt this. even many Americans in the US keep their kids away from public school. tell you the truth if I had to do everything over again, I would convince my dad not to send my brother and I to public school. Kids in the American public schools are behind, even compared to many third world countries. for example Bangladesh. My cousins in Bangladesh are learning things I've only came across in college. Public school students are concerned with the opposite gender, popularity and sports.
-SI-

[strider]

are you saying that terrorist wouldnt attack a school, or cant disguise themselves in a niqab?

This is a very real risk of allowing Niqabs to be worn in certain places as it masks ones identity. I think schools should reserve the right to ban the Niqab if they feel there is a risk to their security.

[Muezzin]

I expected these knee-jerk reactions...

It's not a wholesale ban, it's allowing headteachers a discretion to ban it if they so wish, which will differ from case to case. If it was a law saying 'veils may not be worn in any school in the UK', then I'd be getting ticked off. I'm sure headteachers can and will be pressured by certain parent groups not to ban the veil in certain schools anyhow.

Also, I fail to see any relevance whatsoever the American school system has to this news.

[wilberhum]

This is a very real risk of allowing Niqabs to be worn in certain places as it masks ones identity. I think schools should reserve the right to ban the Niqab if they feel there is a risk to their security.

There are lots of reasons for the ban other than security.

You can go down to the simplest points.

Who is attending class? Who is taking the test?

[Sami Zaatari]

typo say=see*

anyway if banning the niqab is for security then we should start banning the crosses in every single muslim country, why? well it poses a threat to, if we wanna be desperate like some others are then we can say crosses can be used to stab someone with and can be used as a weapon, hence it should be banned as it can be used as a weapon, fair is fair, security comes first right?

[vpb]

Sami Zatari, you realized that when u got the PM :p lolllll

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


If any arguments begin once again, then i think people will start getting banned since the same rule is broken continuously throughout the thread.


The only reason i'm re-opening it is because it will allow other brothers and sisters who have not shared their view to put their's forward. This isn't a fighting arena.


Thread Re-opened.

[strider]

Meh. There is little point in taking part in this discussion anymore. Anybody who remotely thinks these proposed guidelines hold some water, be careful in saying it otherwise you face being labelled as a 'sell-out'.

What a lovely world we live in. :)

[England]

typo say=see*

anyway if banning the niqab is for security then we should start banning the crosses in every single muslim country, why? well it poses a threat to, if we wanna be desperate like some others are then we can say crosses can be used to stab someone with and can be used as a weapon, hence it should be banned as it can be used as a weapon, fair is fair, security comes first right?

That's very unrealistic and you know. The threat of terrorism is real that exists today. The chance of a terrorist attack in any place in Britain is much higher than someone stabbing another with their crucifix :rollseyes

Besides in some Islamic countries the bible is banned and if any bible is found it is then burned.

I don't know why anyone's surprised with these measures. You all know how schools feel about the veil in their schools. We've had this discussion before.

[Muezzin]

What does this proposal have to do with preventing terrorism? It's more to do with communication, identification in general and the health and safety of the wearer.

[Keltoi]

I don't necessarily connect the issue with terrorism, more security and social interaction. If the girls or women involved feel that wearing the veil is too important to take it off during public school time, then they should seriously look at attending an all girl Islamic school.

[England]

What does this proposal have to do with preventing terrorism? It's more to do with communication, identification in general and the health and safety of the wearer.

It is mostly to do with communication and definately identification. Surely that's good enough reason..
But at the same time it also reduces the risk of a suicide bomber in a niqab or whatever from getting in the middle of the children and blowing them up... These suicide bombers are nutters... not all there...

By the way there are plenty of Islamic schools. I've seen plenty myself.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

There are lots of reasons for the ban other than security.

You can go down to the simplest points.

Who is attending class? Who is taking the test?

Good points.


Now i think we really do need islamic schools, we cant have our sisters that want to practise their religion properly be held back. SubhanAllah !

[Keltoi]

Just an honest question. Is it a widely held belief that all Muslim women should wear a veil to practice Islam properly?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Just an honest question. Is it a widely held belief that all Muslim women should wear a veil to practice Islam properly?

No its not a widely held belief, but depends on what you mean.

However there is vast proof in islam to show that the best women (those during the time of the prophet saws) use to wear the face veil, also there is much proof which i have posted in another thread to show that it was instructed.

However that all depends on the persons view, it seems clear cut commanded to me.


Thats all i have currently.

[Muezzin]

Just an honest question. Is it a widely held belief that all Muslim women should wear a veil to practice Islam properly?

Simple answer is no, it is not a widely held belief since the number of veiled Muslim women is in the vast minority.

Complicated answer is there are different schools of thought, but I'm not really qualified to go into them in much depth. Surely some searching for 'Niqab' in the 'Basics of Islam' section of this site may help in clearing up a few things to start with. :)

[Keltoi]

Simple answer is no, it is not a widely held belief since the number of veiled Muslim women is in the vast minority.

Complicated answer is there are different schools of thought, but I'm not really qualified to go into them in much depth. Surely some searching for 'Niqab' in the 'Basics of Islam' section of this site may help in clearing up a few things to start with. :)

Yeah, I was just being lazy and looking for a simple yes or no answer. I will take a look at more detailed threads for a fuller picture.

Back on topic. On thinking about this further, I think perhaps there might be a remedy to this problem. You know how you go to a club and get a stamp on your hand to prove you paid the cover charge?...just bear with me and pretend you have experienced it. Why not a similar situation with girls and women who wear the veil. Not a stamp, but some sort of ID given to them when they walk through the door which means this is indeed "Jane Doe". It might seem too much with all the negative thoughts about identifying marks given to people. I don't know, just a thought. This was meant primarily for a public school situation.

[Muezzin]

What, a UV stamp thing?

That might actually help to keep intruders in general out of schools.

[Keltoi]

What, a UV stamp thing?

That might actually help to keep intruders in general out of schools.

That is what I was thinking. Give all students some sort of identifying badge, mark, etc. That way everyone knows who is supposed to be there and who isn't. As a side-effect, the girls and women who choose to wear veils can be easily identified by this badge/stamp, and teachers and other students know who they are speaking to.

[England]

What, a UV stamp thing?

That might actually help to keep intruders in general out of schools.

That would cost money. Banning the niqab and identifying the pupils would be free. Besides it's not just about keeping intruders out. It's about communication.

[Keltoi]

That would cost money. Banning the niqab and identifying the pupils would be free. Besides it's not just about keeping intruders out. It's about communication.

How about hiring a veiled teacher who will teach veiled students if they so choose? I don't know, I just like to accomodate religious preferences if at all possible.

[England]

How about hiring a veiled teacher who will teach veiled students if they so choose? I don't know, I just like to accomodate religious preferences if at all possible.

Veiled teachers has already been discussed. The schools are against veiled teachers for the exact same reason why teachers can ban the students wearing niqabs. They have the option to go to an Islamic school.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
This banning of veils does not prevent a muslim women from practicing her religion so it shouldn't be a problem. It's not like they are saying dress like slags since the rest of the dress code is still allowed.

Female muslims are still muslims whether they wear a niqab or not, just as a male muslim is still a muslim whether he has a beard or not.

[England]

This also applies to Islamic schools I've just read....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007130147,00.html

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

This also applies to Islamic schools I've just read....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007130147,00.html

I think you may have posted the wrong article, since that one says nothing about Islamic schools banning the veil...

...Sort it aaat.

[England]

:sl:


I think you may have posted the wrong article, since that one says nothing about Islamic schools banning the veil...

...Sort it aaat.

"They will tell parents they CAN uphold religious traditions provided they do not put security and learning in jeopardy. The rules will also apply to faith schools."

[guyabano]

^ yea cause their perverted.


But i agree, we should just have lots of islamic schools. Non-Muslim schools teach too many anti islamic thoughts anyway!

In what world do you live?

So it means, you accuse me to be perverted ?

And then, people like you wonder, why more and more people hate Islam ?

tsk tsk tsk

[E'jaazi]

Simple answer is no, it is not a widely held belief since the number of veiled Muslim women is in the vast minority.

Complicated answer is there are different schools of thought, but I'm not really qualified to go into them in much depth. Surely some searching for 'Niqab' in the 'Basics of Islam' section of this site may help in clearing up a few things to start with. :)

That's not true! Niqab is obligatory. That's from the Scholars, not me.

[Malaikah]

That is what I was thinking. Give all students some sort of identifying badge, mark, etc. That way everyone knows who is supposed to be there and who isn't. As a side-effect, the girls and women who choose to wear veils can be easily identified by this badge/stamp, and teachers and other students know who they are speaking to.

Even easier would be to get the student to show her face to other female students or teachers for confirmation. We don't need to get so advanced. :)

Most women wear the niqaab that shows their eyes anyway, in those cases there is no issue with identification.

[sameer]

i think banning the veil doesn't really help with security or suicide bombers, simply because the veil doesn't make the bomb go of. I mean that a person can walk into the school with their face showing and still pull out a gun and shoot someone or blow up the place as is evident in multiple cases in recent times.
Security shouldnt be used to justify this ruling....... they should just stick with communication and learning problems as reasons for the rulings.

[England]

i think banning the veil doesn't really help with security or suicide bombers, simply because the veil doesn't make the bomb go of. I mean that a person can walk into the school with their face showing and still pull out a gun and shoot someone or blow up the place as is evident in multiple cases in recent times.
Security shouldnt be used to justify this ruling....... they should just stick with communication and learning problems as reasons for the rulings.

But the fact that it could pose a security risk it would strengthen their case. It was the issue of security that actually led the school to victory against a girl fighting to wear her hijab at school...

[Muezzin]

But the fact that it could pose a security risk it would strengthen their case. It was the issue of security that actually led the school to victory against a girl fighting to wear her hijab at school...

You mean Niqab, surely. You couldn't fit a cheeseburger in a headscarve, let alone a nail bomb.

[Al Amreeki]

A blog entry:

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatahu,


The Department for Eduction and Skills in the United Kingdom has issued its guidelines on proper school uniform, which allows individual schools to ban the niqaab in class.


See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6466221.stm

This is nothing more than a masked attack on modesty, piety, righteousness and religiousness and a blatant example of the hatred of Islam that is prevalent in British Politics and British Society that exposes the hypocrisy of their so-called multiculturalism.

To read the rest click here!

[England]

You mean Niqab, surely. You couldn't fit a cheeseburger in a headscarve, let alone a nail bomb.

Yeah niqab... same thing :D

[Skywalker]

I think the most convincing point here for me was that niqab would hinder the teachers from knowing who's attending class, an exam, etc. as these are routine things you have to check. A face veil would be a major obstacle in doing this.

Security is also an issue, but I see it as secondary after indentification.

I also agree that Muslim families should try their best to send their kids to Muslim schools, because they would have greater freedom to practice their religion, as well as getting proper Islamic education. The Muslim communty on the other hand should work hard in making more of these schools and more importantly, making them better.

If a public school does have a problem with niqab, they could do a quick check when a student is attending by getting a female teacher or supervisor to see her face. Yeah it's annoying, but they could make it work if they wanted.