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Re.TiReD
03-23-2007, 03:11 PM
:sl:

I've often heard people say....'Allah only tests those He loves' in fact I've said it myself many a time. However in Ibn Qayyim's book 'Sins and their Evil Effects' he says...

'When you see anyone in a difficulty, understand that he is being punished for a sin'

But doesnt that contradict the first part? Are the two compatible...Allah's love alongside punishment? :? :w:
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Re.TiReD
03-23-2007, 03:37 PM
aaj would be nice :p
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-23-2007, 04:53 PM
lol sis sabrun jameel ! ;D

but laa adree, im a lil confused as to why ibn al qayyim would say that. you sure he didnt mean it in another context? can i see the article :)
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-23-2007, 09:04 PM
:sl:

From what i understood:

The Hadith is:

Abu Hurayrah (radiallaahu 'anhu) reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Whenever Allah wills good for a person, He subjects him to adversity." [ Bukharee and others ]
'When you see anyone in a difficulty, understand that he is being punished for a sin'
That does not contradict the fact that Allaah tests those whom He loves. Since Allaah loves a person, He is punishing them in this life so that they will be free of sins in the Aakhirah and on the Day of Judgement. We know that for any suffering a Muslim goes through, some of his sins are expiated, and the reason he goes through the hardship in the first place is because of his sins. The following Ahadith explains it:
Anas (radiallaahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "When Allah wills good for a servant of His, He expedites his punishment in this life; and when He wills retribution for a servant of His, He holds his sins for Him to judge him by them on the Day of Resurrection."
[Tirmithee]

Abu Hurayrah (radiallaahu 'anhu) reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) said: "Hardships continue to befall a believing man and woman's body, family, and property, until they meet Allah (swt) burdened with no sins." [ Tirmithee ]

Abu Sa'eed al-Khudree (radiallaahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) said: "A muslim is not afflicted by hardship, sickness, sadness, worry, harm, or depression - even if pricked by a thorn, but Allah expiates his sins because of that. " [Bukharee and Muslim]

'Aishah (radiallaahu anhu) narrated that once some pain afflicted the Prophrt (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) causing him to suffer and turn about in his bed. She said: "Had one of us done this, you would have blamed him." He (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) replied: "An ailment is intensified for the righteous. whenever a believer is afflicted by a hardship, whether it is a thorn or more, a sin is taken off from him because of it, and he is elevated by one rank (in Jannah)." [ Ahmad ]
So because Allaah loves this person, He sends him trials and problems here, as a 'punishment' in this Life, so he won't be burdened with it on the Day of Qiyamah. If the person is patient for the sake of Allaah, then Insha'Allaah the above hadith apply to him.
"Indeed amazing are the affairs of a believer ! They are all for his benefit; If he is granted ease of living he is thankful; and this is best for him. And if he is afflicted with a hardship, he perseveres; and this is best or him." [ Muslim ]
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Umar001
03-24-2007, 11:26 PM
It's hardly a contradiction.
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deen_2007
03-24-2007, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
:sl:

That does not contradict the fact that Allaah tests those whom He loves. Since Allaah loves a person, He is punishing them in this life so that they will be free of sins in the Aakhirah and on the Day of Judgement. .[/B][/I]" [ Muslim ][/INDENT]
yeah thats what i was going to say when i read the 1st post of this thread. thats how ive understood it too. he loves us so much, that he puts us through so much in the world, so our sins get washed away. then we will have as little for the after life.
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- Qatada -
03-24-2007, 11:43 PM
:salamext:


Ask yourself - when did you start practising islaam? Was it when you faced a hardship in life? I know it was that way for me. Allaah tested me with that hardship and i had one of two options:

1) Become arrogant/angry at the decree of Allaah and go further into sin.

2) Turn to Allaah because i know i'm weak and helpless.


I chose option 2 alhamdulillaah, and that was my starting point to come closer to Allaah. That hardship inshaa Allaah removed some of my sins, and lead to a greater good - my submission to Allaah, alhamdulillah. :)
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iqbal_soofi
03-24-2007, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
It's hardly a contradiction.
If this is not a contradiction, then what's a contradiction?
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deen_2007
03-24-2007, 11:49 PM
its not a contradiction. how is it? can u elaborate then we can answer in detail to clarify how its not a contrdiction.
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-24-2007, 11:53 PM
after reading over and over again i just understood mashaAllah. Allah cleanses those he loves with punishment :)
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deen_2007
03-24-2007, 11:58 PM
^^ alhamdullilah. hope everyone else understands it too. (so guys if u havnt fallen ill for a while, be it cough or temperature....get worried!!! ...lol...that was a joke)....but saying that...i sometimes get worried...
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
after reading over and over again i just understood mashaAllah. Allah cleanses those he loves with punishment :)
So we're undergoing a cleansing process in Iraq?
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by deen_2007
^^ alhamdullilah. hope everyone else understands it too. (so guys if u havnt fallen ill for a while, be it cough or temperature....get worried!!! ...lol...that was a joke)....but saying that...i sometimes get worried...
:salamext:


I heard in a lecture that looking forward for trials isn't always a good thing, but once they come your way - then you should remain firm. Allaah knows best.
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-25-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
So we're undergoing a cleansing process in Iraq?
Allahu a'lam bro. Maybe i was wrong.


Laa Adree.

Why dont you explain what you understand?
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deen_2007
03-25-2007, 12:08 AM
(to fi_sabilillah)^^ thanks for that. i only sometimes feel that way...cnt help it, its in the bcak of my head. but now...i'll stop feeling that way.
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Malaikah
03-25-2007, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by deen_2007
^^ alhamdullilah. hope everyone else understands it too. (so guys if u havnt fallen ill for a while, be it cough or temperature....get worried!!! ...lol...that was a joke)....but saying that...i sometimes get worried...
:sl:

Nah, trust me, being physically sick isn't the only way Allah tests us!
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Umar001
03-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
If this is not a contradiction, then what's a contradiction?
Do you understand the background can play an effect on the meaning?

The simple matter that the statement comes from a book entitled; Sins and their Evil Effects gives us an understanding. Punishment and Test are not the same, does someone get a reward for being punished?

When you see someone in difficulty understand he is being punished for his sins, this is in a book apparently which talks about sinners and their problems, talking about a person who persistantly sins and does not repent aint the same as talking about someone who repents and trys not to sin.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-25-2007, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
So we're undergoing a cleansing process in Iraq?
Do you remember what happened in Bosnia? The Muslims were far from their religion. The serbs came and started to kill the Muslims. They were put into a trial. The Muslims realized that the only reason they were being killed was because of their religion. What happened? The Muslims started returning to their religion. Brothers started focusing on their religion. For example, Madinah University recieved so many applications from brothers in Bosnia during that time when before that they only used to get frm there rarely. Because of that trial, or punishment per say, many were guided back to Islam.
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
Do you remember what happened in Bosnia? The Muslims were far from their religion. The serbs came and started to kill the Muslims. They were put into a trial. The Muslims realized that the only reason they were being killed was because of their religion. What happened? The Muslims started returning to their religion. Brothers started focusing on their religion. For example, Madinah University recieved so many applications from brothers in Bosnia during that time when before that they only used to get frm there rarely. Because of that trial, or punishment per say, many were guided back to Islam.
Yes I remember this. I remember even more than this. Serbians took a revenge for what was done to their ancestors a long time ago when Bosanians conquered Serbia. Bosnians allied with any power that could help them supress Serbians. They were in a very good shape when they were under the Soviet protection. After the fall of Soviet shelter, Serbians got the chance to take the revenge. When Bosnians felt that there was no chance of getting the Soviet shelter then, they looked again towards the Muslim countries for millitant/political support.
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------
03-25-2007, 11:03 AM
:salamext:

This thread is very informative, Jazak Allah Khayr!
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 12:39 PM
:salamext:


I've noticed this happens sooo much subhaan Allaah!

It is an aspect of Man's Disbelief that He remembers Allah at times of difficulty then associates others with Him after He has been relieved of His Distress


[وَإِذَا مَسَّ الإِنسَـنَ ضُرٌّ دَعَا رَبَّهُ مُنِيباً إِلَيْهِ]

(And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord, turning to Him in repentance.) means, at times of need, he prays to Allah and seeks His help alone, not associating anything with Him. This is like the Ayah:


[وَإِذَا مَسَّكُمُ الْضُّرُّ فِى الْبَحْرِ ضَلَّ مَن تَدْعُونَ إِلاَ إِيَّاهُ فَلَمَّا نَجَّـكُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ أَعْرَضْتُمْ وَكَانَ الإِنْسَـنُ كَفُورًا ]

(And when harm touches you upon the sea, those that you call upon vanish from you except Him. But when He brings you safe to land, you turn away. And man is ever ungrateful.) (17:67). Allah says:


[ثُمَّ إِذَا خَوَّلَهُ نِعْمَةً مِّنْهُ نَسِىَ مَا كَانَ يَدْعُو إِلَيْهِ مِن قَبْلُ]

(But when He bestows a favor upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before,) means, at the time of ease, he forgets that supplication and prayer. This is like the Ayah:


[وَإِذَا مَسَّ الإِنسَـنَ الضُّرُّ دَعَانَا لِجَنبِهِ أَوْ قَاعِدًا أَوْ قَآئِمًا فَلَمَّا كَشَفْنَا عَنْهُ ضُرَّهُ مَرَّ كَأَن لَّمْ يَدْعُنَآ إِلَى ضُرٍّ مَّسَّهُ]

(And when harm touches man, he invokes Us, lying on his side, or sitting or standing. But when We have removed his harm from him, he passes on as if he had never invoked Us for a harm that touched him!) (10:12).


[وَجَعَلَ لِلَّهِ أَندَاداً لِّيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ]

(and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His path.) means, at times of ease, he associates others in worship with Allah and sets up rivals to Him.


[قُلْ تَمَتَّعْ بِكُفْرِكَ قَلِيلاً إِنَّكَ مِنْ أَصْحَـبِ النَّارِ]

(Say: "Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while, surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!'') means, say to those whose way this is, `enjoy your disbelief for a while!' This is a stern threat and solemn warning, as in the Ayat:


[قُلْ تَمَتَّعُواْ فَإِنَّ مَصِيرَكُمْ إِلَى النَّارِ]

(Say: "Enjoy! But certainly, your destination is the Fire!'') (14:30).


[نُمَتِّعُهُمْ قَلِيلاً ثُمَّ نَضْطَرُّهُمْ إِلَى عَذَابٍ غَلِيظٍ ]

(We let them enjoy for a little while, then in the end We shall oblige them to (enter) a great torment.) (31:24)



[أَمَّنْ هُوَ قَانِتٌ ءَانَآءَ الَّيْلِ سَـجِداً وَقَآئِماً يَحْذَرُ الاٌّخِرَةَ وَيَرْجُواْ رَحْمَةَ رَبِّهِ قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِى الَّذِينَ يَعْلَمُونَ وَالَّذِينَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ إِنَّمَا يَتَذَكَّرُ أُوْلُو الاٌّلْبَـبِ ]

(9. Is one who is obedient to Allah, Ana'a Al-Layl prostrating and standing fearing the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord Say: "Are those who know equal to those who know not'' It is only men of understanding who will remember.)


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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I've noticed this happens sooo much subhaan Allaah!

It is an aspect of Man's Disbelief that He remembers Allah at times of difficulty then associates others with Him after He has been relieved of His Distress
Some people like to cheat with themsleves and start begging for mercy in hard times. We should avoid this kind of cheating. When Allah puts you in test, then you should try to find the solutions using the abilities that Allah has installed in you. You know what I mean? For example when you make cars and put one of them to test, then you expect the car to withstand the pressures apllied on it. You'd reject the whole lot of cars if the car put on test doesn't withstand the pressure and starts begging for mercy.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 05:47 PM
:salamext:


We do whatever we have power over and we still turn to Allaah for sincere help, yes we beg of Him because we are weak and helpless, and we are dependant upon Him, the Almighty.
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


We do whatever we have power over and we still turn to Allaah for sincere help, yes we beg of Him because we are weak and helpless, and we are dependant upon Him, the Almighty.
It's your own fault if you're weak and helpless. Allah made you strong and powerful. You're one of His best creations. You disgrace Allah when you talk like losers and point out design defects in his best creation. Try to pass the test when you're put to test. I feel inspired when I watch some handicaped and crippled people doing many things like normal persons. When those people respond positively and face the test gracefully, they certainly make Allah proud of them. Follow their example and do the best you can and leave the rest to Allah. Don't disapoint Allah about you by asking for help during your test. That's a kind of unfairmeans even when you ask the help of the examiner in an examination.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 06:13 PM
:salamext:


Look iqbaal, look at the examples of the Prophets who would do all they have control over and then seek help from Allaah. That's exactly what i said we should do, and if you want to discuss it further - please create another thread.
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Look iqbaal, look at the examples of the Prophets who would do all they have control over and then seek help from Allaah. That's exactly what i said we should do, and if you want to discuss it further - please create another thread.
Prophets were the special people of Allah. Allah sent them for nothing but to spread His message. That was entirley a different kind of job which normal human beings are not made for. They couldn't fulfil this abnormal duty so easily. They had some complex problems during the course of their special duty which normal human beings don't have any experience. Therefore, there was no chance of learning from normal human beings. Prophets had to seek the guidance or instructions from Allah. Allah responded to them only and that too through Gibrael. He will not send any advice or instructions to normal human beings. Therefore, stop looking towards Allah for everything. Apply your brain and power to solve your problems. Do your best and leave the rest to Allah. He'll give grade you according to your performance. He might take some marks off if you still insisted on his help.
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Confucius
03-25-2007, 06:35 PM
salamualikum....
wow, this convo is veeery interesting....u've both confused me now...

when in times of difficulty u SHOULD'NT turn to Allah??? so who'dja turn to then? afterall there are some situations that are beyond our control....

but i do like the idea of staying strong...and not crippling under the pressure...and tru is true, we are the best of creations (not in an arrogant way)
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 06:36 PM
:salamext:


Bring your proof that Allaah dislikes us calling out to Him, if you're telling the truth. :)
The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

Indeed the supplication is the worship. [Recorded in Musnad Ahmad]

Then he recited,

And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''. [Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]


So praying is better than not praying since you're performing an act of worship. :)
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------
03-25-2007, 06:39 PM
:salamext:

From what I understand, we are weak, we don't have that much power, and therefore we should turn to Allaah Almighty for help.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 06:42 PM
:salamext:


Yeah ^ alhamdulillah.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
03-25-2007, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
salamualikum....
wow, this convo is veeery interesting....u've both confused me now...

when in times of difficulty u SHOULD'NT turn to Allah??? so who'dja turn to then? afterall there are some situations that are beyond our control....

but i do like the idea of staying strong...and not crippling under the pressure...and tru is true, we are the best of creations (not in an arrogant way)
:w:

You have to turn to Allaah. It is the ones who turn to Allaah and ask Him, call out to Him, and make Dua' to Him, they are the strong ones. The one who fears Allaah is indeed the brave one.
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
salamualikum....
wow, this convo is veeery interesting....u've both confused me now...

when in times of difficulty u SHOULD'NT turn to Allah??? so who'dja turn to then? afterall there are some situations that are beyond our control....

but i do like the idea of staying strong...and not crippling under the pressure...and tru is true, we are the best of creations (not in an arrogant way)
There's no situation which is beyond our control. A situation maybe beyond one person's control though. In these circumstances Allah has already given you the ability to team up with approperiate persons or experts. Apply all those skills and you'd be successful. Have full faith in Allah. He is merciful and never puts you in a test which you cannot withstand. If you find a test very hard, then don't say that Allah made an out of course question paper for you and request Allah to revise the test paper. Read the question carefully again and try to look around you for the answer. Allah has already put all the answers close to us. It's upto us how we look around the world to search the best answer for every situation.

For example if Allah doesn't send rain for a long time, then don't start crying for water. Allah has certainly provided other sources of water near you. Try to preserve them and think of ways how to make them available for your needs. If you don't find any water resources near you, then you must move close to other sources. It's the part of life. Maybe Allah wants you to move for your betterment that's he might have stopped sending the rain for some time.
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------
03-25-2007, 07:09 PM
:salamext:
You have to turn to Allaah. It is the ones who turn to Allaah and ask Him, call out to Him, and make Dua' to Him, they are the strong ones. The one who fears Allaah is indeed the brave one.
Indeed.

He is merciful and never puts you in a test which you cannot withstand.
Yep...

"On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear."
[Qur'an, 2:286]


In the end, Allah knows best and He is the Provider and Helper :D
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Confucius
03-25-2007, 07:13 PM
soooo.....is the implication that if u turn to Allah(SWT) in times of difficulty....it means uve failed ur test???????

personally i dont agree... in times of difficulty and distress we shud do both... pray and strive, lest we start thinking were invincible.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
soooo.....is the implication that if u turn to Allah(SWT) in times of difficulty....it means uve failed ur test???????

personally i dont agree... in times of difficulty and distress we shud do both... pray and strive, lest we start thinking were invincible.

:salamext:


Sister, we asked for proof but since brother iqbaal hasn't brought any from Qur'an or Sunnah, then we don't need to agree with it. Especially if it contradicts the way of the prophets of Allaah and the righteous.


Guess what Allaah says?


O ye who believe! seek help with patient perseverance and prayer; for Allah is with those who patiently persevere. [Qur'an 2:153]
The tafsir/explanation/interpretation of the verse can be found here inshaa Allaah:
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=1845
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
soooo.....is the implication that if u turn to Allah(SWT) in times of difficulty....it means uve failed ur test???????

personally i dont agree... in times of difficulty and distress we shud do both... pray and strive, lest we start thinking were invincible.
We must pray regularly anyway. That's not the issue here. But to commit irregulaties for praying especially in times of difficulty is not good. In times of difficulty we should adress the problem properly and gracefully.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
We must pray regularly anyway. That's not the issue here. But to commit irregulaties for praying especially in times of difficulty is not good. In times of difficulty we should adress the problem properly and gracefully.

:salamext:

Did the Prophet peace be upon him say that? Or is it just your own opinion? :)
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------
03-25-2007, 07:53 PM
:salamext:

Isn't it better to follow whats in the Qur'an brother Iqbaal, then to make up our own assumptions?
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:

Did the Prophet peace be upon him say that? Or is it just your own opinion? :)
Do you mean to say that Prophet peace be upon him forbid us from praying regularly or to commit irregularities or to start praying more than normal in times of difficulty and not to pay attention to resolve the problem properly?

If he said so then please give the proof from Quran and Hadidth as you always claim yourself to be a champion of Quran and Sunnah. You use this very often in order to knock out others when you run out of arguments.
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Confucius
03-25-2007, 08:00 PM
hey hey hey....guys im starting to sense some bad vibes!

nwy didnt Rasulallah (SAW) during the battle of Badr, do his best in arranging the army...and then he prayed and prayed and prayed (more than usual) until his cloak fell off his shoulders and then Abu Bakr (RA) came and told him to stop and rest and surley Allah will help them..

and Allah did reinforce them with a thousand angels..and then more.

correct me if im wrong...but that kinda proves we need to pray extra in times of hardship.
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Do you mean to say that Prophet peace be upon him forbid us from praying regularly or to commit irregularities or to start praying more than normal in times of difficulty and not to pay attention to resolve the problem properly?

If he said so then please give the proof from Quran and Hadidth as you always claim yourself to be a champion of Quran and Sunnah. You use this very often in order to knock out others when you run out of arguments.

:salamext:


I'm not a 'champion' bro :), all i want is evidence for your claim. Don't you know that our religion depends upon the evidences? To define what an act of worship is and what isn't? Therefore we need evidences from Qur'an or Sunnah to prove that what you said is true. If it's not - then it doesn't need to be accepted. The same applies to me - what i say doesn't hold any weight unless i back it with proofs.


And sister nuj, maasha Allaah yeah - that's a good example of how even the Prophets of Allaah prayed humbly to Allaah seeking His help.
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iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
hey hey hey....guys im starting to sense some bad vibes!

nwy didnt Rasulallah (SAW) during the battle of Badr, do his best in arranging the army...and then he prayed and prayed and prayed (more than usual) until his cloak fell off his shoulders and then Abu Bakr (RA) came and told him to stop and rest and surley Allah will help them..

and Allah did reinforce them with a thousand angels..and then more.

correct me if im wrong...but that kinda proves we need to pray extra in times of hardship.


Prophets worshiped more in times of hardship. They were successful in this way. *Read the history of successful prophets)

Normal people need to work harder in times of hardship. They're successful in this way. (Read the history of successful nations)
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- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 08:59 PM
:salamext:

Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much. [Qur'an Al-Ahzaab 33:21]

:)
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IbnAbdulHakim
03-25-2007, 09:00 PM
:salamext:


all good is from Allah and errors are from ourselves.

may Allah forgive imam ibn qayyim al jawziyyah rahimahullah if he made a mistake.

he remains one of the greatest imams with innumerable jewels, but he is not infallible.


now bro, we;ll take this question to a sheikh.

may Allah protect us from useless talk

Ameen


oh and may he protect us from Al-Kasl

Ameen!
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I'm not a 'champion' bro :), all i want is evidence for your claim. Don't you know that our religion depends upon the evidences? To define what an act of worship is and what isn't? Therefore we need evidences from Qur'an or Sunnah to prove that what you said is true. If it's not - then it doesn't need to be accepted. The same applies to me - what i say doesn't hold any weight unless i back it with proofs.


And sister nuj, maasha Allaah yeah - that's a good example of how even the Prophets of Allaah prayed humbly to Allaah seeking His help.
So give the evidence from Quran and Hadith that Prophet peace be upon him forbid Muslims to pray regularly and start performing abnormal rituals in times of difficulty. What gurantee did he give that angels will certainly come to help you if you prefer to do extra prayers and pay less attention to address your problem practically? Give your proof.
Reply

Confucius
03-25-2007, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:

Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much. [Qur'an Al-Ahzaab 33:21]


:)
i wanna gonna say that lol. As we are the ummah of rasuallah (SAW) we follow HIS path and HIS way...its the one's to go away from the sunnah of the prophet (SAW) that are led astray.

we see our Prophet (SAW) pray in times of distress....we do the same, we see him pray when the solar eclipse occured, we do the same, etc.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-25-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
So give the evidence from Quran and Hadith that Prophet peace be upon him forbid Muslims to pray regularly and start performing abnormal rituals in times of difficulty. What gurantee did he give that angels will certainly come to help you if you prefer to do extra prayers and pay less attention to address your problem practically? Give your proof.

Did i say he guaranteed angels would come to us if we prayed to Allaah?


I'll tell you some beneficial ahadith though related to dua':



The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"Caution will be of no benefit against divine decree, but du' a benefits all things, whether they come down or not. I therefore advise you to make du'a, O servants of Allah" (Ahmad, Abu Ya'la and al-Tabarani)!


"Nothing repels divine decree except du'a, and nothing increases one's lifespan except good deeds" (Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Hakim).


"There is no Muslim on the face of the earth that asks Allah for anything except that Allah gives it to him, or averts from him a similar evil, as long as he does not ask for something evil or for breaking the ties of kinship" (Al-Tirmidhi).


It is the Sunnah of the Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wa sallam to make the following du'a during the witr prayer:

"...Bless me in what You have given me. And avert and turn away from me the evil that has been decreed for me, for verily You decree (all things), and none can decree against You..."
(Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Nasa'i)
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...p-destiny.html
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Did i say he guaranteed angels would come to us if we prayed to Allaah?


I'll tell you some beneficial ahadith though related to dua':



The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"Caution will be of no benefit against divine decree, but du' a benefits all things, whether they come down or not. I therefore advise you to make du'a, O servants of Allah" (Ahmad, Abu Ya'la and al-Tabarani)!


Nothing repels divine decree except du'a, and nothing increases one's lifespan except good deeds" (Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Hakim).
"There is no Muslim on the face of the earth that asks Allah for anything except that Allah gives it to him, or averts from him a similar evil, as long as he does not ask for something evil or for breaking the ties of kinship" (Al-Tirmidhi).

It is the Sunnah of the Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wa sallam to make the following du'a during the witr prayer:
"...Bless me in what You have given me. And avert and turn away from me the evil that has been decreed for me, for verily You decree (all things), and none can decree against You..."(Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Nasa'i)
This is not the answer to my question. You may depend upon extra prayers only if you don't want to do anything practically to solve the problem. But in times of difficulty if you want to face the problem and to solve it gracefully, then you need more time to plan out approperiate strategy to handle the problem and then work physically to get through it step by step. An experience in successfully solving the problems makes you a more useful person than those who try to avoid their problems and try to get help from spiritualists. This kind of loser attitude gives opportunities for the professional spiritualists and other kinds of thugs to expand their business. Now let's see the results in our societies. In our countries professional spiritualists and religious scholars are making a great business, whereas our problems are not decreasing because we think that they're averted with dua. To solve our problems we get loans, aids and help from the developed countries. Many of us leave our own countries to work in the developed countries for jobs in order to solve the increasing financial problems. The developed countries are developed because people in those countries took the right path to solve their problems instead of making duas.
Reply

Confucius
03-25-2007, 10:25 PM
Salamualaikum,

i think this convo shud end here...im seeing that its like a dog chasing its own tail...its getting nowhere!

both parties are adamant on their own views....and personally the convo is being derived of its benefits because of the on going argument...

We shud keep following the sunnah of the prophet (SAW) and be sincere in our actions, for faults occur with insincerity.

and Allah knows best.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
i wanna gonna say that lol. As we are the ummah of rasuallah (SAW) we follow HIS path and HIS way...its the one's to go away from the sunnah of the prophet (SAW) that are led astray.

we see our Prophet (SAW) pray in times of distress....we do the same, we see him pray when the solar eclipse occured, we do the same, etc.
There's no disagreement on what the Prophet peace be upon said. Only disagreement is that whether he said it or not. There's no proof about the authencity of his sayings. We can verify it from the results in our day life. If something works and his name is used then it's possible that he said it; and something doesn't work but his name is used then it's possible he never said it.

The dua thing doesn't make you successful in your test. It's the right strategy and hard work that always works. That's why I gave you the example of failed nations that depend more on duas. The successful nations depend on right strategy and hard work. But since this hurts the business of religious people, therefore, they'd still keep on argumenting with real proof of success and logic. This is their way of fooling others
Reply

Confucius
03-25-2007, 10:50 PM
Allah Knows best! lol. im not saying aaaanything furthur.
Dead end. :)
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-25-2007, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by nuj
Allah Knows best! lol. im not saying aaaanything furthur.
Dead end. :)
It's not only Allah but everybody knows that you can't achieve success without doing something. Let's examine the power of dua and hardwork seperately.

Case 1: Dua You don't go to work and make dua that you'll get your salary.
Result: You'll not get any salary.

Case 2: Work You go to work and don't make any dua.
Result: You'll still get salary.

The same results apply for solving any other problem.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-26-2007, 01:32 PM
:salamext:


I've stated many times already that dua' should be performed when we have done all we have control over. :) There's no contradiction, and like the Messenger of Allaah himself said "Tie the camel, then place your trust in Allaah."
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I've stated many times already that dua' should be performed when we have done all we have control over. :) There's no contradiction, and like the Messenger of Allaah himself said "Tie the camel, then place your trust in Allaah."
So you agree that there's no magic in dua? Dua works only when something is done properly? The real magic is in doing the things propley in fact. If something is done properly, then it'll fix the problem. Dua is made to put your own mind on peace only. It has nothing to do with the problem. But if you don't do anything to fix the problem and just make a dua and go to sleep, then the problem may become a disaster. Am I right?

Now let me come to the current state of affairs of Ummah. Everyone who claims to be a champion of Islam teaches us just fundamentals of Islam and suggests all kinds of duas and wazeefas but gives us no clue on how to fix our growing prblems practically. The Ummah is just looking for the peace of mind in the middle of their growing economic and social problems. People put their minds to peace with all these duas. Our problems are becoming disasters for us. In these circumstances the thugs are shining their business more by selling all kinds of generic and patent duas. Ummah is revolving around the fundamentals whereas the disasters are revolving around Ummah. Nobody knows how to fix those problems. Everybody is begging from Allah without taking any positive measures to fix the issues.
Reply

Re.TiReD
03-26-2007, 02:12 PM
:sl: SubhanAllah, it's nice to see this thread opened up alotta discussion :) I don't have time to reply to all of the comments or answer the questions but I've learnt alot from it Alhamdulillah. JazakAllah Khayr :w:
Reply

- Qatada -
03-26-2007, 04:20 PM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
So you agree that there's no magic in dua? Dua works only when something is done properly? The real magic is in doing the things propley in fact. If something is done properly, then it'll fix the problem. Dua is made to put your own mind on peace only. It has nothing to do with the problem. But if you don't do anything to fix the problem and just make a dua and go to sleep, then the problem may become a disaster. Am I right?

No, dua' isn't simply to put your mind at ease. Our supplication to Allaah is showing Allaah that we are dependant upon Him, and it shows that we have placed our trust in Him. Two people might both do a similar action, but the one who prayed may gain success whereas the other one never, why? Because they relied on Allaah whereas the other never.

If you don't agree, bring your proof otherwise from something which we can both have common ground on.


Now let me come to the current state of affairs of Ummah. Everyone who claims to be a champion of Islam teaches us just fundamentals of Islam and suggests all kinds of duas and wazeefas but gives us no clue on how to fix our growing prblems practically. The Ummah is just looking for the peace of mind in the middle of their growing economic and social problems. People put their minds to peace with all these duas. Our problems are becoming disasters for us. In these circumstances the thugs are shining their business more by selling all kinds of generic and patent duas. Ummah is revolving around the fundamentals whereas the disasters are revolving around Ummah. Nobody knows how to fix those problems. Everybody is begging from Allah without taking any positive measures to fix the issues.
We take the positive measures, and follow the prophetic example - i.e. working hard and striving towards creating an islamic state etc. yet at the same time we place our trust in Allaah by praying to Him to make us successful.
Reply

Confucius
03-26-2007, 04:54 PM
salamunalikum...

i have to disagree..to u saying Dua isnt magic....it is MAGIC....remeber when Musa (AS) was confronted with the Sea, and the army of Firawn was behind him, and Bani Israel were pressurising him, what did he do??? He Prayed....i doubt the sea wud have split open for him for no reason....even if he got big buckets he cudnt have emptied out the sea in time to cross before the army reached him..

the dua was the magic...having tawaqul of Allah (SWT), and being sincere in seeking guidance and help. that was the magic.

Basically do both. Try ur best to solve situation, yet stay humble and call Allah to solve the problem, for a human with a atoms wight of arrogance in the heart will not enter jannah, and to think u can solve the trials Allah sets u, on ur own is arrogance.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-26-2007, 04:59 PM
:salamext:


The term 'magic/sihr' isn't really a good term to use for this, since magic is associated with illusions and something not being real.

The response to the dua' of Allaah is a blessing from Allaah to us, and magic is simply an illusion. Therefore they aren't alike and can't be termed as the same thing. :)

And Allaah knows best.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-26-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:




No, dua' isn't simply to put your mind at ease. Our supplication to Allaah is showing Allaah that we are dependant upon Him, and it shows that we have placed our trust in Him. Two people might both do a similar action, but the one who prayed may gain success whereas the other one never, why? Because they relied on Allaah whereas the other never. .
:salamext:

mashaAllah good stuff and i would just like to add that success isnt always what we percieve it to be. For example both of them may get exactly the same results and at the same time one may lose whislt the other may win. Why you might wonder well allow me to give an example

If two brothers participated in a jihad fi-sabilillah and both brothers lost lets think about how one could win whilst the other lose.

brother 1: Has sabr and trusts that Allah has done what is best and is pleased with the qadr of Allah so is thereful successful due to the imense reward that his patience at the strike of calamity has braught him !
The best life is attained by the blessed through patience, and they rise to the highest degrees through their gratitude. So they fly on the wings of patience and gratitude to gardens of delight (i.e., Paradise). That is the bounty of Allaah that He bestows upon whomsoever He will, and Allaah is the Owner of Great Bounty.
End quote from ‘Uddat al-Saabireen by Ibn al-Qayyim, p. 3-5.

brother 2: Is outraged and loses trust in Allah and thereby loses his imaan by reducing good works.



PS: I mainly done this to put in imam ibn al qayyims quote :p
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:




No, dua' isn't simply to put your mind at ease. Our supplication to Allaah is showing Allaah that we are dependant upon Him, and it shows that we have placed our trust in Him. Two people might both do a similar action, but the one who prayed may gain success whereas the other one never, why? Because they relied on Allaah whereas the other never.

If you don't agree, bring your proof otherwise from something which we can both have common ground on.
Let me give the proof from the example quoted by yourself:

A person came to the Prophet peace be upon him he didn't tie his camel but made the dua and slept but the camel was gone when he woke up.

So the dua made the person on ease only and didn't work on the camel. And that's whole purpose of dua. It doesn't solve any real problem. You've to fix the problem yourself and then do the dua. Dua only makes you at ease so that you stop worrying about any other potential dangers which are not in your immediate knowledge but could harm you.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 04:42 PM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I've stated many times already that dua' should be performed when we have done all we have control over. :) There's no contradiction, and like the Messenger of Allaah himself said "Tie the camel, then place your trust in Allaah."

Alhamdulillah i've already stated that, however - dua' is an important factor after you have done all you have control over. I might have took all the medicines needed - but they won't cure me until Allaah wills it. So i pray to Allaah to make this medicines a means to my cure. :)
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:




Alhamdulillah i've already stated that, however - dua' is an important factor after you have done all you have control over. I might have took all the medicines needed - but they won't cure me until Allaah wills it. So i pray to Allaah to make this medicines a means to my cure. :)
Medicines sometimes don't cure even when you make a lot of dua. Maybe the doctor failed to diagnose properly or he didn't give proper medicine or the patient didn't follow the advice properly. If given the right medicine then those who don't believe in dua are also cured.

Let me give the proof from the example quoted by yourself earlier:

A person came to the Prophet peace be upon him he didn't tie his camel but made the dua and slept but the camel was gone when he woke up.

So the dua made the person on ease only and didn't work on the camel. And that's whole purpose of dua. It doesn't solve any real problem. You've to fix the problem yourself and then do the dua. Dua only makes you at ease so that you stop worrying about any other potential dangers which are not in your immediate knowledge but could harm you.
__________________
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Medicines sometimes don't cure even when you make a lot of dua. Maybe the doctor failed to diagnose properly or he didn't give proper medicine or the patient didn't follow the advice properly. If given the right medicine then those who don't believe in dua are also cured.

Let me give the proof from the example quoted by yourself earlier:

A person came to the Prophet peace be upon him he didn't tie his camel but made the dua and slept but the camel was gone when he woke up.

So the dua made the person on ease only and didn't work on the camel. And that's whole purpose of dua. It doesn't solve any real problem. You've to fix the problem yourself and then do the dua. Dua only makes you at ease so that you stop worrying about any other potential dangers which are not in your immediate knowledge but could harm you.
__________________

Nope, first of all we need a source for that statement. So please provide that. And second - we've already stated that the Messenger of Allaah himself stated that we have to tie it first, then put our trust in Allaah.

One day Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?" The Bedouin answered, "I put my trust in Allah." The Prophet then said, "Tie your camel first, then put your trust in Allah" (Recorded in Tirmidhi).
We place our trust in Allaah and make dua' to Him which shows our reliance upon Him, otherwise we would be exactly like the non muslims by doing what we have control over and then doing nothing at all. So instead we follow the Prophetic example and the way of the muslims who followed his way and the way of his companions, these people were the ones who were successful.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Nope, first of all we need a source for that statement. So please provide that. And second - we've already stated that the Messenger of Allaah himself stated that we have to tie it first, then put our trust in Allaah.

One day Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?" The Bedouin answered, "I put my trust in Allah." The Prophet then said, "Tie your camel first, then put your trust in Allah" (Recorded in Tirmidhi).
We place our trust in Allaah and make dua' to Him which shows our reliance upon Him, otherwise we would be exactly like the non muslims by doing what we have control over and then doing nothing at all. So instead we follow the Prophetic example and the way of the muslims who followed his way and the way of his companions, these people were the ones who were successful.


So you say almost the same thing which I'm saying. That you do the things properly to fix a problem. The dua doesn't fix the problem. It's only necessary to make sure you're a Muslim. A non Muslim doesn't need to make a dua to show his trust in Allah, but a Muslim must make a dua to show his trust in Allah.
Reply

...
03-27-2007, 05:21 PM
Remember that no matter what you do it won't work unless Allah wants it to, which is why we pray to Him.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
Remember that no matter what you do it won't work unless Allah wants it to, which is why we pray to Him.
Well that's a different matter. We pray to Allah because we're ordered to. Allah does whatever he wants. We cannot change his decision with our prayers. He is almighty. He always makes the best decisions. We cannot stop Him from sending floods or other natural disasters with dua or prayers. However, we can save ourselves or minimize our damages by acting properly and timely.
Reply

...
03-27-2007, 05:44 PM
One of the two things that can change your destiny is prayer. :)
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 05:44 PM
:salamext:


It does though ^ :) that's why the Messenger of Allaah himself said:

"Caution will be of no benefit against divine decree, but du' a benefits all things, whether they come down or not. I therefore advise you to make du'a, O servants of Allah" (Ahmad, Abu Ya'la and al-Tabarani)!


"Nothing repels divine decree except du'a, and nothing increases one's lifespan except good deeds" (Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Hakim).


"There is no Muslim on the face of the earth that asks Allah for anything except that Allah gives it to him, or averts from him a similar evil, as long as he does not ask for something evil or for breaking the ties of kinship" (Al-Tirmidhi).


It is the Sunnah of the Prophet sal Allaahu alayhi wa sallam to make the following du'a during the witr prayer:

"...Bless me in what You have given me. And avert and turn away from me the evil that has been decreed for me, for verily You decree (all things), and none can decree against You..."
(Al-Tirmidhi and Al-Nasa'i)
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...p-destiny.html (Du'a (supplication) and Its Relationship With Destiny*)


:) Allaah asks us to pray for a reason, the same way He will continously ask the people of paradise to ask Him for anything they desire - so He may grant it to them out of His Mercy. May Allaah make us the dwellers of His jannah, ameen.
Reply

...
03-27-2007, 05:48 PM
Allah says in the Qur’an:

“Your Lord says, ‘pray to Me, and I will answer you.’” (40: 60)
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
Allah says in the Qur’an:

“Your Lord says, ‘pray to Me, and I will answer you.’” (40: 60)

:salamext:


The verse doesn't finish there sister ^ :


The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

Indeed the supplication is the worship. [Musnad Ahmad]

Then he recited,

And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''.
[Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]
Reply

...
03-27-2007, 05:56 PM
Jazakallah khair
Reply

------
03-27-2007, 06:15 PM
And your Lord said: "Call upon Me, I will answer you. Verily, those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!''.

[Qur'an Ghaafir 40:60]
:salamext:

Indeed, which is referring to praying 5 times a day, right?
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 06:26 PM
:salamext:


I think it's referring to dua' in that context ^ and Allaah knows best.


Here's the tafsir/explanation of that verse inshaa Allaah:
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=40&tid=46226


And we know that even most of our 5 daily salawaat mainly involve supplications to Allaah azawajal.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
One of the two things that can change your destiny is prayer. :)
Which is the second thing?

And what exactly do you mean by destiny here? We're discussing about fixing our problems.

I and Fi_Sabilillah already agreed that problems could be fixed only by working properly on them. Saying prayer is another issue which is a mandatory ritual for you to prove that you're a Muslim. Muslims have to say their prayers in addition to working properly on the problems. Non Muslims get their job done only by working on the related problem. They change their destiny in this world by simply working. Everybody's destiny for the next world, however, is already determined.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 06:48 PM
:salamext:


Bro iqbaal, i never said that. I said we have to do what we have control over, then pray - which shows that we are placing our trust in Allaah. And then i gave the example of two guys taking the same medicine with the same illness, at the same time - and only one getting cured, therefore prayer is really important also. :)
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-27-2007, 07:17 PM
:salamext:

There's a difference between salah and du'a. So maybe people should make it clear what they mean by 'prayer'?

Oh, and, please use evidences for your claims or your post may be deleted due to rule 18.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-27-2007, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Bro iqbaal, i never said that. I said we have to do what we have control over, then pray - which shows that we are placing our trust in Allaah. And then i gave the example of two guys taking the same medicine with the same illness, at the same time - and only one getting cured, therefore prayer is really important also. :)
How could you say that nobody could be cured by just taking the medicince? I can prove that many people get cured by just taking proper medication without any prayer or dua. I fell sick many times in my life and got well with just medicines. I even survived Lymphoma (one of the dealy cancers) only with chemo and radiation therapy. I can give you examples of people who died of the same disease even when they took the medication and said more prayers and duas than usual. The reason may be they were much too afraid of the disease and in addition to that they were afraid of Allah. I was able to survive because I had full confidence that my doctors were giving me proper medication (which I verified through different sources during the course of my treatment) and that I believed that Allah is with me. I had no reason to be afraid of Him. I always believed that He is merciful and beneficient. He wants us not to be afraid of Him especially in our hard times and to stop worrying unnecessarily for Him.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-27-2007, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
How could you say that nobody could be cured by just taking the medicince? I can prove that many people get cured by just taking proper medication without any prayer or dua. I fell sick many times in my life and got well with just medicines. I even survived Lymphoma (one of the dealy cancers) only with chemo and radiation therapy. I can give you examples of people who died of the same disease even when they took the medication and said more prayers and duas than usual. The reason may be they were much too afraid of the disease and in addition to that they were afraid of Allah. I was able to survive because I had full confidence that my doctors were giving me proper medication (which I verified through different sources during the course of my treatment) and that I believed that Allah is with me. I had no reason to be afraid of Him. I always believed that He is merciful and beneficient. He wants us not to be afraid of Him especially in our hard times and to stop worrying unnecessarily for Him.
:salamext:

Maybe you should consider that it was Allah who cured you through the medicine? No one accomplishes anything on their own. It is through the blessings and mercy of Allah. Remember what you were created from, and be grateful to Allah.
Reply

Woodrow
03-27-2007, 07:48 PM
This thread is starting to go down hill and appears to be in violation of forum rule 18.
Reply

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