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SoldierOfChrist
03-26-2007, 07:00 AM
Is Jesus the Messiah? Why do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

Muslims, answer the above.
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khushnood
03-26-2007, 07:40 AM
Thats the main point of difference between the christians and the muslims. the former believe that jesus(pbuh) is the messiah mentioned in the jewish scriptures,and the muslims believe that muhammad(pbuh) is that messiah.further, the christians believe that jesus is the son of god and a person can attain salvation if he believes in jesus.we muslims believe that jesus was a prophet of Allah(swt) and no divinity is attributed to him.as for the jews, they are still waiting for their messiah.
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Malaikah
03-26-2007, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by khushnood
no,muslims don't believe that jesus is the messiah.thats the main point of difference between the christians and the muslims. the former believe that jesus(pbuh) is the messiah mentioned in the jewish scriptures,and the muslims believe that muhammad(pbuh) is that messiah.
:sl:

Huh? I'm pretty sure we believe Jesus is the messiah sis...

(What does messiah mean anyway?)
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north_malaysian
03-26-2007, 08:28 AM
We called Jesus as "Isa Al Masih"...

according to wikipedia Al Masih means "the anointed one" ... it's also being said as Arabic term for "Messiah"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih
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Muslim Woman
03-26-2007, 08:32 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)



&&&



format_quote Originally Posted by khushnood
no,muslims don't believe that jesus is the messiah.thats the main point of difference between the christians and the muslims.
well sis , I think , the main difference between Christians & Muslims is we believe in One God only & don't associate partner with Him. Christians worship 2 more dieties besides God.

to my knowledge , Muslims do believe that Jesus (p) is Messiah.......i m almost 100 % sure that it is mentioned in Quran. May be , it's not the same meaning that Christians believe but Jesus (p) permorfed many miracles includeing cured sick persons by touching them.......the word Messiah came from that .......Insha Allah , i will try to find more info later :)


i found some info :p

pl. visit the site.....interesting for both Muslims & Chrsitians

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

Jesus, the Prophet and Messiah, is alive and will return to the Earth in the near future.


We are Muslims who love Jesus, believe in all his miracles and noble morality, know that he will come back to the world again to save humanity and we are eagerly waiting for this great and blessed event to happen.


We believe that Jesus would come back to the earth miraculously in the last days and bring peace, justice and happiness by uniting Christians and Muslims in a common religion and morality.

Come, let us prepare together for the second coming of Jesus.

IN the translation of Quran , chapter 4 , verse 171 , Yusuf Ali
used the word Christ , PICKTHAL used Messiah.


O People of the Scripture!

Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him.

So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah.

Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender


4:172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him

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north_malaysian
03-26-2007, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
, Muslims do believe that Jesus (p) is Messiah.......i m almost 100 % sure that it is mentioned in Quran.
Me too... I believe that Jesus is the Messiah... if the term "Al Masih" means the same thing with "Messiah":D
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YusufNoor
03-26-2007, 12:10 PM
A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu


gee, i wonder what the Qur'an says:

The Family of Imran
[3.45] When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

The Women
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

[4.172] The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.


The Dinner Table
[5.17] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He pleases; and Allah has power over all things,

[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

[5.75] The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.


The Immunity
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

[9.31] They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

just in case anyone had any doubts...

:w:
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Muslim Knight
03-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Muslims believe Jesus as as the Messiah, Al-Masih, the one Chosen by Allah, to kill the Antichrist, the False Messiah (Al-Masih Dajjal). We do not believe Jesus Messiah as Son of God.
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Muslim Knight
03-26-2007, 01:29 PM
:sl:
Woodrow described him best as chipmunk.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Often exhibits turd-like characteristics
Turd can be cool. Or not
Reply

Woodrow
03-26-2007, 06:59 PM
Quite simply the original Hebrew/Arabic/Aramaic definition of Messiah is the anointed one. That does not equate to the modern Christian concept of savior.

So yes we do believe that Isa(as) was one of the anointed ones. He was a very special Prophet(PBUH) and there were many signs given that he was given the true Injil to share with the people. Sadly, at the first council of Ephesus in 437 the Early catholic church elevated him to the role of savior and son of god. Later in the Nicene councils the concept of a trinity was finalized.

As a Result of the Catholic Church, only translations of the early scriptures that can be twisted to support that dogma have been retained.

the Early Christians considered themselves Jews and the concept of a Prophet being a savior or a god would never have been considered Jewish thought and the early Christians would not have seen themselves as Jews if that was their belief.
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NoName55
03-26-2007, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by khushnood
no,muslims don't believe that jesus is the messiah.thats the main point of difference between the christians and the muslims. the former believe that jesus(pbuh) is the messiah mentioned in the jewish scriptures,and the muslims believe that muhammad(pbuh) is that messiah.further, the christians believe that jesus is the son of god and a person can attain salvation if he believes in jesus.we muslims believe that jesus was a prophet of Allah(swt) and no divinity is attributed to him.as for the jews, they are still waiting for their messiah.
where did you get that from?
Is Jesus the Messiah?
yes,Muslims believe that but ahmadis don't
Why do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
Because Quraan and Ahdith tell me

:w:
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جوري
03-26-2007, 08:36 PM
here are a number of versed where Jesus PBUH is refred to as the Messiah just follow the verse and chapter number
Page 1/1
Al-i-'Imran 3 Verse 45 1/11


Surah Name Surah Verse
Al-i-'Imran 3 45
An-Nisaa 4 157
An-Nisaa 4 171
An-Nisaa 4 172
Al-Maidah 5 17
Al-Maidah 5 72
Al-Maidah 5 75
Al-An'am 6 86
At-Tauba 9 30
At-Tauba 9 31
Sad 38 48

Recitation Al-Husari Al-Hudhaifi





Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;


I have posted a whole thread here before of what it means to be (almaseeh) annoinnted.. to wash with fragrant oil as they did kings...
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جوري
03-26-2007, 08:39 PM

Jesus as the Messiah by Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Deedat

The word CHRIST is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic-Masih. Root word m-a-s-a-h-a, meaning to rub, to massage, to anoint. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated, Grecian form "CHRIST", it seems unique:befitting Jesus only. The Christian has a knack of transmuting baser metals into shining gold. What he is wont to do is to translate names into his own language like "cephas" to Peter, "messiah" to Christ. How does he do that? Very easily MESSIAH in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is "christos". Just lop off the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ. Now change the little 'c' to a capital 'C', and "hey, presto!" he has created a unique (?) name! Christos means ANOINTED, and anointed means APPOINTED in its religious connotation. Jesus (pbuh) was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger.Every Prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew - made a "messiah". Let us keep to the English translation - "anointed." Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (christos-ed), but borns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....

Genesis 31:13

If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....

Leviticus 4:3

And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...

Leviticus 8:10

...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED

1 Samuel 2:10

Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....

Isaiah 45:1

Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....

Ezekiel 28:14




There are a hundred more such references in the Holy Bible. Everytime you come across the word ANOINTED in your English Bible, you can take it that that word would be christos in the Greek translations, and if you take the same liberty with the word that the Christians have done, you will have - Christ Cherub, Christ Cyrus, Christ Priest and Christ Pillar, etc.

SOME TITLES EXCLUSIVE
Although, every prophet of God is an ANOINTED one of God - a Messiah, the title "Masih" or "Messiah" or its translation "CHRIST" is exclusively reserved for Jesus, the son of Mary, in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific title which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage: like "Rasul-lullah", meaning Messenger of God, which title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Holy Quran. Yet "Rasul-lullah" has become synonymous only with the Prophet of Islam among Muslims.

Every prophet is indeed a FRIEND OF GOD, but its Arabic equivalent "Kha- lil-lullah" is exclusively associated with Father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God's friends. "Kalimul-lah" (One who spoke with God) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His Messengers, including Jesus and Muhummed (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon all His servants). Associating certain titles with certain personages only, does not make them exclusive or unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.
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snakelegs
03-26-2007, 10:29 PM
i'm confused by this thread. i know messiah means annointed.
my question is why is jesus "the" messiah?
how is he different from other prophets, aside from being one of the more important ones?
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جوري
03-26-2007, 10:33 PM
He was anointed by John the Baptist... it isn't exclusive to Jesus (PBUH) as you can see several other places in the bible where the term "anointed" was mentioned! Basically he was the awaited prophet... and I believe he was in fact related to John the Baptist (yahaya) -- so it seems natural that he would anoint him like they did kings during that time...

peace
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snakelegs
03-26-2007, 10:47 PM
oh, ok - thanks. it was the use of the word "the" messiah that made me wonder. (because it implies exclusivity.)
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جوري
03-26-2007, 10:50 PM
Well he was THE one to be annointed at the time and not some other impostor.. if that makes the word more exclusive?... but as you can see the term is mentioned in several other places in the bible ---

I am the God of Beth-el, where you ANOINTED a pillar.....

Genesis 31:13

If the priest that is ANOINTED do sin....

Leviticus 4:3

And Moses....ANOINTED the tabernacle and all things that was therein...

Leviticus 8:10

...THE LORD SHALL....EXALT THE HORN OF HIS ANOINTED

1 Samuel 2:10

Thus saith the Lord to his ANOINTED to Cyrus....

Isaiah 45:1

Thou art the ANOINTED cherub....

Ezekiel 28:14
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snakelegs
03-26-2007, 10:55 PM
i know the word and how it is used in the bible. when you say "the" messiah, it seems as though there were many annointed ones but jesus was "the" annointed one. (something special and different from all the others.)
if i don't shut up i am soon going to get even more confused.
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جوري
03-26-2007, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i know the word and how it is used in the bible. when you say "the" messiah, it seems as though there were many annointed ones but jesus was "the" annointed one. (something special and different from all the others.)
if i don't shut up i am soon going to get even more confused.
Well.. if you consider that the anointed ones at the time were all just regular kings--- but Jesus came with the gospel to rule by G-D's law-- you can see why there is exclusivity in that from any other anointed king... I don't see the harm of asking?... I know you are not asking out of malice, but to learn... I learned about this very topic because I too one day asked!

peace
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snakelegs
03-26-2007, 11:02 PM
thanks, purest! :statisfie
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جوري
03-26-2007, 11:03 PM
my pleasure.. wanted to reply to you in a repute but it just won't let me for some reason... I really believe there is a mal-function in the system?:enough!:
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جوري
03-26-2007, 11:42 PM
I don't know if this is a dead topic by now but also wanted to share these if you were interested?:-[

During the times of Biblical history, both the Hebrews and some of the non-Hebrews ceremonially anointed rulers.
This constituted the confirmation of their official appointment to office.
( See Judges 9:8, 15; 1Samuel 9:16; 2 Samuel 19:10) Samuel anointed Saul as king after God had designated Saul as his choice. (1 Samuel 10:1) David was anointed as king on three different occasions: once by Samuel, later by the men of Judah, and finally by all the tribes. (1Sa 16:13; 2Sa 2:4; 5:3) Aaron was anointed after his appointment to the office of high priest. (Le 8:12) Afterward, Aaron and his sons had some of the anointing oil along with the blood of the sacrifices spattered upon their garments, but Aaron was the only one who had the oil poured over his head.—Le 8:30.

In the Law Jehovah gave to Moses, he prescribed a formula for the anointing oil. It was of a special composition of the choicest ingredients—myrrh, sweet cinnamon, sweet calamus, cassia, and olive oil. (Ex 30:22-25) It was a capital offense for anyone to compound this mixture and to use it for any common or unauthorized purpose. (Ex 30:31-33)
Things dedicated as sacred were also anointed. Jacob took the stone on which he rested his head when he had an inspired dream, set it up as a pillar, and anointed it, thus marking that place as sacred; and he called the place Bethel, meaning “House of God.” (Ge 28:18, 19)
A short time later Jehovah acknowledged that this stone had been anointed. (Ge 31:13)
In the wilderness of Sinai, at Jehovah’s command, Moses anointed the tabernacle and its furnishings, indicating that they were dedicated, holy things.—Ex 30:26-28.
So I believe it was very common practice at the time. Especially for kings, and prophets...
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Hemoo
03-29-2007, 05:39 PM
i have some things to share .here are two hadith of the prophet (peace be upon him)

1-what is mentioned about both the mesiah(jesus) and about the false mesiah(Dajjal) ..

in the book of authintic Sahih Muslim:-
Chapter : Account of the Dajjal and his features and what would be along with.

An-Nawwas b. Sam'an reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made a mention of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him to be insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant and we felt as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) in our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Messenger, you made a mention of the Dajjal in the morning (sometimes describing him) to be insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think as if he were present in some (near) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. Thereupon he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among on, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not amongst you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah would take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's Messenger, how quickly would he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He would come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion) and they would affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He would then give command to the sky and there would be rainfall upon the earth and it would grow crops. Then in the evening, their posturing animals would come to them with their humps very high and their udders full of milk and their flanks stretched. He would then come to another people and invite them. But they would reject him and he would go away from them and there would be drought for them and nothing would be left with them in the form of wealth. He would then walk through the waste, land and say to it: Bring forth your treasures, and the treasures would come out and collect (themselves) before him like the swarm of bees. He would then call a person brimming with youth and strike him with the sword and cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at a distance which is generally) between the archer and his target. He would then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness) and it would at this very time that Allah would send Christ, son of Mary, and he will descend at the white minaret in the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he would lower his head, there would fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he would raise it up, beads like pearls would scatter from it. Every non-believer who would smell the odour of his self would die and his breath would reach as far as he would be able to see. He would then search for him (Dajjal) until he would catch hold of him at the gate of Ludd and would kill him. Then a people whom Allah had protected would come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he would wipe their faces and would inform them of their ranks in Paradise and it would be under such conditions that Allah would reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from amongst My servants such people against whom none would be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah would send Gog and Magog and they would swarm down from every slope. The first of them would pass the lake of Tibering and drink out of it. And when the last of them would pass, he would say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions would then be besieged here (at Tur, and they would be so much hard pressed) that the head of the ox would be dearer to them than one hundred dinirs and Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would supplicate Allah, Who would send to them insects (which would attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish like one single person. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then come down to the earth and they would not find in the earth as much space as a single span which is not filled with their putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle, Jesus, and his companions would then again beseech Allah, Who would send birds whose necks would be like those of camels and they would carry them and throw them where God would will. Then Allah would send rain which no house of clay or (the tent of) camels' hairs would keep out and it would wash away the earth until it could appear to be a mirror. Then the earth would be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there would grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of persons would be able to eat that, and seek shelter under its skin and milch cow would give so much milk that a whole party would be able to drink it. And the milch camel would give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe would be able to drink out of that and the milch sheep would give so much milk that the whole family would be able to drink out of that and at that time Allah would send a pleasant wind which would soothe (people) even under their armpits, and would take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked would survive who would commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.

-----------------------------------------

2-what is mentioned about the False mesiah..

in authintic Sahih Bukhary:-

Narated By Ibn Umar : We were talking about Hajjat-ul-Wada, while the Prophet was amongst us. We did not know what Hajjat-ul-Wada' signified. The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal and described him extensively, saying, "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He will appear amongst you (O Muhammad's followers), and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he (i.e. Ad-Dajjal) is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out (of its cluster). No doubt,! Allah has made your blood and your properties sacred to one another like the sanctity of this day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours." The Prophet added: No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you? " They replied, "Yes," The Prophet said thrice, "O Allah! Be witness for it."

and i hope that what i mentioned here is usefull

salam
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King David
03-29-2007, 06:11 PM
1) mashiah doest mean annointed as something that is annointed. Mashiah means the one that will be send at end of days he will be the beginning of the world to come ! Also i read annointed by jhon the baptist before do christians have another g*d called jhon the baptist now? He has to be annointed (chosen) by g*d.


2)
Messiah : The Criteria
Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Israelite
- "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Certainly NOT Jesus.
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 06:20 PM
That is your own interpretation of anointed means... but volumes of books speak differently --- as (john the Baptist) who was Yahya (AS)--- the son of Zechariah-- you know the one that spoke against the incestuous relationship between Salome and her uncle-- and as wedding gift she decided it was his head (yaha (John the Baptist') that she wanted on a plate....

you are however free to believe what you wish otherwise...

peace!
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:20 PM


The Laws Concerning Moshiach

Chapters 11 & 12 of Hilchos Melachim from the Mishneh Torah of the Rambam


Maimonides(Rambam) (March 30, 1135 or 1138–December 13, 1204) was a Jewish rabbi, physician, and philosopher in Spain, Morocco and Egypt during the Middle Ages. He was one of the various medieval Jewish philosophers who also influenced the non-Jewish world. Although his copious works on Jewish law and ethics were initially met with opposition during his lifetime, he was posthumously acknowledged to be one of the foremost rabbinical arbiters and philosophers in Jewish history. Today, his works and his views are considered a cornerstone of Orthodox Jewish thought and study.
Maimonides' full name was Moshe ben Maimon (Hebrew: משה בן מימון) and his Arabic name was أبو عمران موسى بن ميمون بن عبد الله القرطبي الإسرائي 04;ي (Abu Imran Mussa bin Maimun ibn Abdallah al-Qurtubi al-Israili). However, he is most commonly known by his Greek name, Moses Maimonides (Μωυσής Μαϊμονίδης ), which literally means, "Moses, son of Maimon", like his name in Hebrew and Arabic. Several Jewish works call him Maimoni, מימוני. However, more Jewish works refer to him by the Hebrew acronym of his title and name — Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon — calling him the RaMBaM or the Rambam (רמב"ם).
He was physician of the Grand Vizier Alfadhil and Sultan Saladin of Egypt as well, and considered to be the greatest physician of his time. He composed most of his oeuvre in this last locale, including the Mishneh Torah.
CHAPTER ELEVEN

1. In future time, the King Moshiach [1] will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will rebuild the [Beis Ha]Mikdash and gather in the dispersed remnant of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will be reinstituted as in former times. We will offer sacrifices and observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars set forth in the Torah.
Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating: [Devarim 30:3-5]
And the Lord your G-d will bring back your captivity and have compassion upon you. He will return and gather you [from among all the nations].... Even if your dispersed ones are in the furthest reaches of the heavens, [from there will G-d gather you in].... G-d will bring you [to the land]....
These explicit words of the Torah include all that was said [on the subject] by all the prophets.
There is also a reference [to Moshiach] in the passage concerning Bilaam, who prophesies about the two anointed [kings]: the first anointed [king] [2], David, who saved Israel from her oppressors, and the final anointed [king] who will arise from among his descendants and save Israel [at the End of Days] [3]. The following [quoted] phrases are from that passage: [Bamidbar 24:17-18]
"I see it, but not now" - This refers to David; "I perceive it, but not in the near future" - This refers to King Moshiach.
"A star shall go forth from Yaakov" - This refers to David; "and a staff shall arise in Israel" - This refers to King Moshiach.
"He shall crush all of Moab's princes" - This refers to David, (as it is written [II Shmuel 8:2], "He smote Moab and measured them with a line"); "he shall break down all of Seth's descendants" - This refers to King Moshiach, (about whom it is written [Zechariah 9:10], "He will rule from sea to sea").
"Edom will be demolished" - This refers to David, (as it is written [Cf. II Shmuel 8:6 and 8:14], "Edom became the servants of David"); "his enemy, Seir, will be destroyed" - This refers to Moshiach, (as it is written [Ovadiah 1:21], "Saviors will ascend Mount Zion [to judge the mountain of Esau....]").
2. Similarly, in regard to the cities of refuge, it is stated [Devarim 19:8-9], "When G-d will expand your borders... you shall add three more cities." This command has never been fulfilled. [Surely,] G-d did not give this command in vain, [and thus the intent was that it be fulfilled after the coming of Moshiach]. There is no need to cite prooftexts on the concept [of the Moshiach] from the words of the prophets, for all [their] books are filled with it.
3. One should not entertain the notion that the King Moshiach must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena within the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is [definitely] not true.
[A proof can be brought from the fact that] that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Ben Koziva, and would describe him as the King Moshiach. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the King Moshiach until he was killed because of [his] sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not [the Moshiach]. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders.
[Rather,] this is the main thrust of the matter: This Torah, with its statutes and laws, is everlasting. We may neither add to them nor detract from them. [4]
4. If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply into the study of the Torah and, like David his ancestor, observes its mitzvos as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law; if he will compel all of Israel to walk in [the way of the Torah] and repair the breaches [in its observance]; and if he will fight the wars of G-d; - we may, with assurance, consider him Moshiach.
If he succeeds in the above, builds the [Beis Ha]Mikdash on its site, and gathers in the dispersed remnant of Israel, he is definitely the Moshiach. [5]
He will then perfect the entire world, [motivating all the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah, 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."
CHAPTER TWELVE

1. One should not entertain the notion that in the Era of Moshiach any element of the natural order will be nullified, or that there will be any innovation in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.
Although Yeshayahu [Yeshayahu 11:6] states, "The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat," these [words] are an allegory and a riddle. They mean that Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to wolves and leopards, as in the verse [Yirmeyahu 5:6], "A wolf of the deserts despoils them, a leopard watches over their cities." [In this era, all nations] will return to the true faith and no longer plunder or destroy. Instead, at peace with Israel, they will eat that which is permitted, as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:7], "The lion shall eat straw like the ox."
Similarly, other prophecies of this nature concerning Moshiach are analogies. In the Era of the King Moshiach, everyone will realize what was implied by these metaphors and allusions.
2. Our Sages taught: [Berachos 34b] "There will be no difference between the current age and the Era of Moshiach except [our emancipation from] subjugation to the [gentile] kingdoms."
The simple meaning of the words of the prophets appears to imply that the war of Gog and Magog [Yechezkal ch. 38] will take place at the beginning of the Messianic age. Before the war of Gog and Magog, a prophet will arise to rectify Israel's conduct and prepare their hearts [for the Redemption], as it is written: [Malachi 3:23] "Behold, I am sending you Eliyah(u) [6] [before the advent of the great and awesome Day of G-d]."
He will not come [in order] to declare the pure, impure, nor to declare the impure, pure; nor [will he come in order] to disqualify the lineage of those presumed to be of flawless descent, nor to validate lineage which is presumed to be blemished. Rather, [he will come in order] to establish peace in the world; as [the above prophecy] continues [Malachi 3:24], "He will bring back the hearts of the fathers to the children."
Some of the Sages say that Eliyahu will appear [immediately] before the coming of Moshiach.
All these and similar matters cannot be [clearly] known by man until they occur, for they are undefined in the words of the prophets. Even the Sages have no established tradition regarding these matters, beyond what is implied by the verses; hence there is a divergence of opinion among them.
In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their precise details are among the fundamental principles of the faith. One should not occupy himself at length with the aggadot and midrashim that deal with these and similar matters, nor should he deem them of prime importance, for they bring one to neither the awe nor the love [of G-d].
Similarly, one should not try to calculate the appointed time [for the coming of Moshiach]. Our Sages declared: [Sanhedrin 97b] "May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Mashiach's coming] expire!" Rather, one should await [his coming] and believe in the general conception of the matter, as we have explained.
3. During the Era of the King Moshiach, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire [nation's] line of descent will be established on the basis of his words, through the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him. As it is written [Loc. cit., v. 3], "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier."
He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating that "This one is a priest of defined lineage" and "This one is a Levite of defined lineage." Those whose lineage he does not recognize will be relegated to the status of Israelites. This is implied by the following verse: [Ezra 2:63] "The governor said to them, '[They shall not eat of the most holy things] until a priest arises [who will wear] the Urim and Tumim.'" From this verse one can infer that the genealogy of those presumed to be of unquestioned [priestly and levitical] lineage will be traced by means of the prophetic spirit, and those found to be of such lineage will be made known.
He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone; i.e., he will make known each person's tribal origin, stating that "This one is from this tribe" and "This one is from another tribe." However, concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage, he will not state that "He is illegitimate," or "He is of slave lineage," for the law rules that once a family has become intermingled [within the entire Jewish people], they may remain intermingled.
4. The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them, nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free Ito involve themselves] in Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in Hilchos Teshuvah.
5. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of human potential; as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:9], "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed."
FOOTNOTES

  1. In the original Hebrew, HaMelech HaMoshiach (lit., "the anointed king"); i.e., the Messianic King.]
  2. In the original Hebrew, the word here translated "anointed [king]" is simply HaMoshiach (lit. "the anointed one"); i.e., the Messiah. It is used interchangeably with the earlier phrase.]
  3. At this point, before being censored by medieval Christian authorities, the Rambam's original text continued: "...and save Israel from the hand's of Esav's descendants. This and two other such deletions have been copied verbatim in these footnotes from the celebrated Yemenite manuscript in the hands of Chacham Yosef Kapach of Jerusalem. (See footnotes 4 and 5, below.)]
  4. At this point, the uncensored original text continued as follows: "Whoever adds to [the mitzvoth] or detracts from them, or misinterprets the the Torah, implying that the mitzvos are not intended to be understood literally, is surely a wicked imposter and a heretic."
  5. The whole of the following passage was deleted from most of the editions published since the Venice edition of 1574. "If he did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah. [Rather,] he should be considered as all the other proper and legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. G-d only caused him to arise in order to test the multitude. As it is written [Daniel 11:35], "Some of the wise men will stumble, to purge, to refine, and to clarify, until the appointed time, for it is yet to come."
    "Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel's prophecies [Daniel 11:14], "The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble."
    "Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."
    "Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."
    "How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them."
    "When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err."
  6. The name of the prophet is occasionally spelled, as in this verse, without the final letter vav.
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 06:26 PM
I don't put much stock on Maimondes... here is someone who was rejected from Spain and ended up in Muslim lands only to write scrolls cussing Muslims -- which was fine-- and he was so allowed... but to me he isn't above Jesus (PBUH)-- if Jesus didn't fulfil what you or he were/are awaiting-- it is your prerogative to practice and believe what you will... But Jesus was the anointed one... so it says in the Quran which you sometimes quote as a source.......

peace!
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:26 PM
Some Quotes from the Torah



You will cross the Jordan and settle the land which G-d is giving you as an inheritance. He will give you rest from all your enemies which surround you, and you will dwell secure. Then there shall be a place which G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell therein...

There you shall seek Him...

- Deuteronomy 12:10-11; 12:5

"You will return to the L-rd your G-d...

And the L-rd your G-d shall return with your returnees... and He will return and gather you from all the nations amongst whom the L-rd your G-d has scattered you..."

"If your outcasts shall be at the ends of the heavens, from there will the L-rd your G-d gather you, from there He will take you... [He] will bring you into the Land which your fathers have possessed and you will possess it, and he will do you good and multiply you, more than your fathers...

[He] will circumcise your heart (remove its coarse covering, make it receptive to G-dliness) ... to love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul...

G-d will again rejoice over you... for you shall hearken to the voice of G-d... to keep His commandments and statues which are written in this book of the Torah...

- Deuteronomy 30:2-10

It shall come to pass in the last days, that the mount of the house of G-d shall be established atop the mountains, and be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall stream to it.

And many nations will go, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of G-d, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he (Moshiach) will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths." For from Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of G-d from Jerusalem.

And he (Moshiach) will judge between nations, and decide among the peoples.

And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword upon nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

- Isaiah 2:2-4

There shall come forth a shoot out of the stem of Yishai, a branch shall grow from his roots. The spirit of G-d shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of G-d... Righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his reins.

The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the kid... the cow and the bear will graze... the lion will eat straw as the ox... the suckling child will play on the cobra's hole...

For the earth shall be filed with the knowledge of G-d, as the waters cover the sea.

- Isaiah 11:1-9

No longer shall your Master be cloaked; your eyes will behold your Master.

The glory of G-d will be revealed. And all flesh will see that the mouth of G-d has spoken.

- Isaiah 30:20; 40:5

I have given you a national covenant: to be a light unto the nations.

- Isaiah 42:6

I will set my Torah in their innards and write it upon their hearts...

- Jeremiah 31:32

I will take you from the nations, gather you from the countries and bring you to your land... From all your contaminations, from all your idols, I will cleanse you.

I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will place within you. I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will place My spirit within you.

- Ezekiel 36:24-27

I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant... and I shall set My dwelling in their midst for evermore.

- Ezekiel 37:26

I will no longer hide my face from them.

- Ezekiel 39:29

I shall pour forth my spirit upon all flesh.

- Joel 3:1

Behold, days are coming, says G-d, when I will send a famine upon the earth; not a famine for bread, nor a thirst for water, but to hear the word of G-d.

- Amos 8:11

For then I shall turn to the nations a pure tongue, that all shall call upon the name of G-d to serve Him as one.

- Zephaniah 3:9

I shall remove evil from the world.

- Zechariah 13:2

And G-d shall be king over the entire world; on that day, G-d will be one, and His name, one.

- Zechariah 14:9

Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet, before the great and awesome day of G-d will come. He will restore the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers.

- Malachi 3:23-24

I am sleeping but my heart is awake.

- Song of Songs 5:2

(This refers to the state of galut. -Midrash Rabbah)

The voice of my beloved, behold he has come, leaping over the mountains, skipping over the hills... Behold, he is standing behind our wall, watching through the windows, peering through the cracks... Arise my loved one, my fair one, and go forth! For behold, the winter is over, the rain is over and gone. The blossoms have appeared on earth, the time of singing has arrived, and the voice of the guide is heard in the land!"

- Song of Songs 2:8-12

From the Supernal One cannot emerge both evil and good.

Lamentations 3:38

(Thus the "evil" we encounter is but the concealment of good. -Chassidic teaching)
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:28 PM
Mashiach: The Messiah

I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the mashiach, and though he may tarry, still I await him every day.
--a popular paraphrase of Principle 12 of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith
The Messianic Idea in Torah

Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, commonly recited daily as brought above. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles, restoration of the Torah-based system of justice, an end to the apostates and heretics, reward for the righteous, rebuilding of Jerusalem, restoration of the kingdom of the descendants of King David, and restoration of Temple service.
Many modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced far after the beginning of the Jewish people at Mount Sinai, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not clearly mentioned anywhere in the Written Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of the Torah. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all the people could then understand, and the abstract concept of a distant future reward was then beyond the comprehension of many of the people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the Latter Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is considered the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means the anointed one, and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the Latter Days. He will be the very real king of a very real Torah government in the Land of Israel: not some "spiritual" or "symbolic" king in Israel, as some have mistakenly thought (especially Christians), and certainly not some gifted Jewish spiritual leader outside the Land of Israel, as others have mistakenly thought (including thousands of Jews in our generation as well as the followers of earlier false Jewish "mashiachs" in generations past). It should be mentioned that while it is not forbidden to foolishly believe that one is the mashiach despite that he is not, it is certainly not the sign of a good grasp of the Torah to be mislead as to his nature and role, described more fully below.
The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior". The notion of an innocent, semi-divine (let alone fully divine) human being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in normal Jewish thought, though it seems to have been invented or adopted by Jewish apostates in the early Church. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word should probably no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. Thus, we prefer to use the less familiar word "mashiach" throughout this page.
The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended by a pure male line from King David (Jeremiah 23,5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (The Mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11,2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military figure who will win battles for Israel, freeing the Jews of foreign domination and establishing a Torah-based kingdom in Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33,15). But above all, he will be a fully normal human being, not a god, demi-god, or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach; thus, even if one could say that some historial Jewish figure was worthy of being the mashiach, since he did not reestablish a Torah kingdom in Israel, he could not possibly have been the real mashiach we wait for.
What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there will be war and great suffering (Ezekiel 38,16). Then the mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing all Jews outside Israel back to Israel, and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11,11-12; Jeremiah 23,8; 30,3; Hosea 3,4-5). He will establish a Torah government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and Gentiles (Isaiah 2,2-4; 11,10; 42,1). He will rebuild the Temple and reestablish its worship (Jeremiah 33,18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel, if it had not already been reestablished before him, and establish the Torah as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33,15).
The Messianic Age

The messianic age will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2,4). Hatred, intolerance, and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11,6-9); others like Maimonides, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity. What is agreed on by all is a very optimistic picture of what real people can be like in this real world, the like of which has never been seen before.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11,11-12; Jeremiah 23,8; 30,3; Hosea 3,4-5), and the law of the Jubilee as well as the rest of the special agricultural laws in the Torah will be reinstated.
In the messianic age, the whole world will recognize YHWH, the LORD God of Israel, as the only true God, and the Torah will be seen as the only true religion (Isaiah 2,3; 11,10; Micah 4,2-3; Zechariah 14,9). There will be no more murder, robbery, competition, or jealousy.
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:30 PM
Genesis Chapter 49
10. The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.
The scepter shall not depart from Judah from David and thereafter. nor the student of the law from between his feet Students. These are the princes of the land of Israel. — [From Sanh. 5a]
nor the student of the law from between his feet Students. These are the princes of the land of Israel. — [From Sanh. 5a] until Shiloh comes [This refers to] the King Messiah, to whom the kingdom belongs (ùÑÆìåÉ) , and so did Onkelos render it: [until the Messiah comes, to whom the kingdom belongs]. According to the Midrash Aggadah, ["Shiloh" is a combination of] ùÑÇé ìåÉ, a gift to him, as it is said:"they will bring a gift to him who is to be feared" (Ps. 76:12). - [From Gen. Rabbah ed. Theodore-Albeck p. 1210 ]
Another translation is:
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 06:33 PM
Yup...he has come he has risen... he shall come back again--- you are welcome to await his second return-- but volumes of cuts and pastes won't do it for me I have already stated my reasons above... Maimondes --isn't above Jesus to me and he certainly isn't above what is written in the Quran...
and I can honestly respect your beliefs... but a large cut and paste won't convince me otherwise of what I know to be true...

peace!
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:35 PM
Koran 17:104: Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in the land. When the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled, We shall assemble you all together.'
Reply

King David
03-29-2007, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Yup...he has come he has risen... he shall come back again--- you are welcome to await his second return-- but volumes of cuts and pastes won't do it for me I have already stated my reasons above... Maimondes --isn't above Jesus to me and he certainly isn't above what is written in the Quran...
and I can honestly respect your beliefs... but a large cut and paste won't convince me otherwise of what I know to be true...

peace!
Those are studies wirth verses from the tanach of course maimonides isnt above the torah nor the Qur'an
Reply

جوري
03-29-2007, 06:37 PM
You should really read the beginning of that chapter as well!

peace!
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NoName55
03-29-2007, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by King David
Koran 17:104: Then We said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in the land. When the promise of the hereafter comes to be fulfilled, We shall assemble you all together.'
17:104. and we said to the Children of Israel after him: "Dwell In the land, then, when the final and the Last Promise comes near [the Day of Resurrection or the descent of Christ ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) on the earth]. we shall bring You altogether as mixed crowd (gathered out of various nations).[Tafsir Al-Qurtubî, Vol. 10, Page 338]

Wa-salaam Alaikum

did you not see these words (in bold)? BTW does "and" not mean that it is a continuation of a previous verse?

and we said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely In the land ": but when the second of the warnings (first one when Christ was born, 2nd one when He returns) comes to pass, we shall gather you together In a mingled crowd.
وَقُلْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُوا الأرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا

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