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SunnahSeeker
03-26-2007, 10:27 PM
A Mufti (muslim scholar) sat next to a Reverend on a flight.

The Rev asked the Mufti, What is your occupation?
Mufti: I'm into big business

Rev: But what business exactly?
Mufti: I deal with God

Rev: Ah, so you're a Muslim religious leader. I have one problem with you Muslims: you oppress your women.
Mufti: How do we oppress women?

Rev: You make your women cover up completely and you keep them in the homes.
Mufti: Ah. I have a problem with you people: you oppress MONEY.

Rev: What? How can one oppress money?
Mufti: You keep your money hidden away, in wallets, banks and safes.. You keep it covered up. Why don't you display it in public if it's a beautiful thing?

Rev: It will get stolen, obviously.
Mufti: You keep your money hidden because it is so valuable. We value the true worth of women far, far more. Therefore, these precious jewels are not on display to one and all. They are kept in honour and dignity....


:thumbs_up
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NobleMuslimUK
03-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Subhanallah nice answer to kuffar about women opression, and the narrow minded muslims.
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Muezzin
03-26-2007, 10:40 PM
Food > Women + Money
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unknown_JJ
03-26-2007, 10:41 PM
innit bruv nice post
although i hav herd it b4
kool kool
tc
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Khayal
03-26-2007, 10:44 PM
wow!!! mashaAllah so true!

JazaakAllah khair.
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Pk_#2
03-26-2007, 11:02 PM
aww mashaAllah

Nice one :)

jazakAllah!

AsalamuAlaykum!!!!!!!!
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M2A^AKIB^
03-26-2007, 11:11 PM
u tell em mufti saheb!!:thumbs_up
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wilberhum
03-26-2007, 11:25 PM
What I see is equating women to a possession. :raging:

My money has no rights
My wife has the same rights as I do.

Protecting an adult that does now want protection is not protection, it is oppression. :?

But then that is only my opinion. :skeleton:
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nevesirth
03-26-2007, 11:33 PM
no comment
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Pk_#2
03-26-2007, 11:37 PM
Mr.Wilburhum a majority of wives out there would like there hubby's to protect them...nah?

Ok ......* opinion mate
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wilberhum
03-26-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by |)431)M1
Mr.Wilburhum a majority of wives out there would like there hubby's to protect them...nah?

Ok ......* opinion mate
Some times my wife wants protection. When she does, she gets it.
Some times she dosn't and I respect her wishes.
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Skavau
03-26-2007, 11:48 PM
Terrible example.
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SATalha
03-26-2007, 11:57 PM
Hey wilber. I think this is a point that most westernerz dont understand. Its not ur fualt. When i get married i will treat my wife like the way a diomond merchant treats a diomond. I will keep her close 2 me i will not allow other men to think nasty things about her due 2 the clothing she wearz. And i will protect her dignity, modesty n freedom. Is that oppression and if she wishes 2 da same to me, than she can.
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wilberhum
03-27-2007, 12:03 AM
i will treat my wife like the way a diomond merchant treats a diomond
You are right. I will never understand describing my wife as a material possession. :? :?
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SATalha
03-27-2007, 12:05 AM
Material not. Preciouse person yes.
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Skavau
03-27-2007, 12:12 AM
The example ignores the fact that money is material possession with no will to speak of. This cannot be compared to the advocation of keeping women behind closed doors. Women are autonomous and are able to make conscious decisions. Granting them the ability to dress how they wish and valuing their own autonomy is a method of granting them dignity and respect.
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Al_Imaan
03-27-2007, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by SunnahSeeker
A Mufti (muslim scholar) sat next to a Reverend on a flight.

The Rev asked the Mufti, What is your occupation?
Mufti: I'm into big business

Rev: But what business exactly?
Mufti: I deal with God

Rev: Ah, so you're a Muslim religious leader. I have one problem with you Muslims: you oppress your women.
Mufti: How do we oppress women?

Rev: You make your women cover up completely and you keep them in the homes.
Mufti: Ah. I have a problem with you people: you oppress MONEY.

Rev: What? How can one oppress money?
Mufti: You keep your money hidden away, in wallets, banks and safes.. You keep it covered up. Why don't you display it in public if it's a beautiful thing?

Rev: It will get stolen, obviously.
Mufti: You keep your money hidden because it is so valuable. We value the true worth of women far, far more. Therefore, these precious jewels are not on display to one and all. They are kept in honour and dignity....


:thumbs_up
:thumbs_up ...Jazak Allah for sharing...
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SATalha
03-27-2007, 12:20 AM
We know this, our sisterz hav the freedom 2 do wat they want. So long as it complies with islam. Iam jus glad a rapist wud much rather choose a lady who is wearing a skirt rather than a sister who is wearing a jilbab. Coz u c the parts that a rapist desires r visable 4 him, so he choses the easy target. Not 2 say all rape victims wanted 2 get raped. It is men who Commit these sins, and this type of clothing is protection i the sisterz and protection 4 men who can not control their thoughts and actions.
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Khalisah
03-27-2007, 12:29 AM
:sl: wow, nice analogy mashaAllah
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SATalha
03-27-2007, 12:32 AM
Jazakallah, and sunnahseeker this is a great thread thanks 4 sharing
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barney
03-27-2007, 12:39 AM
Money cant think. it's not a free, sentinent entity with thoughts and feelings.


As to whats more precious: Women or Money...
The wife kind of spends all my money so it's difficult to tell. :)
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nevesirth
03-27-2007, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by SATalha
Hey wilber. I think this is a point that most westernerz dont understand. Its not ur fualt. When i get married i will treat my wife like the way a diomond merchant treats a diomond. I will keep her close 2 me i will not allow other men to think nasty things about her due 2 the clothing she wearz. And i will protect her dignity, modesty n freedom. Is that oppression and if she wishes 2 da same to me, than she can.
nice one, shukran
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SATalha
03-27-2007, 12:45 AM
Joker id like 2 c ur bank balance. £0.00
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Muezzin
03-27-2007, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
The example ignores the fact that money is material possession with no will to speak of. This cannot be compared to the advocation of keeping women behind closed doors. Women are autonomous and are able to make conscious decisions. Granting them the ability to dress how they wish and valuing their own autonomy is a method of granting them dignity and respect.
A lot of Muslim women choose to 'cover up' and stay at home of their own volition.

I don't like the example in the first post, but I'm not fond of the ensuing swipes at Islamic practices either.

Anyway, like I said, food is better than women and money put together.

*burp*
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barney
03-27-2007, 01:20 AM
To Women who choose to cover up and stay at home, more power to them. Great.

To those who are forced to cover up, I feel great sympathy with.

But i've always had a problem with male control and subdigation of women. A woman who chooses to wear Hijab is not disrespected by men.
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جوري
03-27-2007, 01:44 AM
We women don't want to be treated equal to you... we want to be treated better!.... I am yet to meet with an opressed Muslim woman-- if they exist-- it is more of a cultural thing than an Islamic thing... just go ask Yvone Ridley

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...46509315492036
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Muezzin
03-27-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
We women don't want to be treated equal to you... we want to be treated better
Therein lies the rub! :p
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جوري
03-27-2007, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Therein lies the rub! :p
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come..........
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barney
03-27-2007, 02:00 AM
Back onto topic!

What passages in the Quaran and in reliable Hadith relate to equality between the sexes?

Regards
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جوري
03-27-2007, 02:07 AM
I can't take credit for any of this... it is all Bros. Ansar Al' Adl's work

The Qur'an clarifies that piety alone, not gender or ethnicity, determines one's status with God:
Qur'an 49:13. O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most noble among you in the sight of Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

And the Qur'an further says about the rewards for men and women:
Qur'an 3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other

Qur'an 4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

Qur'an 16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

Qur'an 40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and the greatest reward.


Islam raises the status of the parents and places specific emphasis on one's mother:

Qur'an 31:14 And [God says:] ‘We have enjoined upon man goodness towards his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his utter dependence on her lasted two years: [hence, O man,] be grateful towards Me and towards thy parents, [and remember that] with Me is all journeys’ end.”

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) asking “ O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man said “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man asked, “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied “Your mother” When the man asked for the fourth time, only then did the Prophet (peace be upon him) say, “Your father” ( Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

Shaykh Muhammad Ali Hashimi comments:
“This hadith confirms that the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave precedence to kind treatment of one’s mother over one’s father and the companions of the Prophet used to remind the Muslims of this after the death of the Prophet (peace be upon him)”
The famous companion of the Prophet, Abdullah ibn Abbas said, I know of no other deed that brings people closer to Allah more than kind treatment and respect towards ones mother.

Read the following incident from another famous companion, Abdullah Ibn Umar.
Abdullah Ibn Umar saw a Yemeni man performing pilgrimage carrying his mother on his back then the man said to Ibn Umar “ I am like a tame camel for her, I have carried her more than she has carried me! Do you think I have paid her back Ibn Umar?”
Ibn Umar said, “No, not even one contraction!” (Bukhari, Book of Manners)

And we all know the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) “Paradise lies at the feet of your mother” (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan An-Nasaa’i, Sunan Ibn Majah)

Islam has also elevated the status of daughters. The following hadith establishes the unsurpassable reward for kind treatment of one's daugters.

Aisha, wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), said: “A poor woman came to me carrying her two daughters. I gave her three dates to eat. She gave each child a date, and raised the third to her own mouth to eat it. Her daughters asked her to give it to them, so she split the date that she had wanted to eat between them. I was impressed by what she had done, and told the Messenger of Allah P about it. He said, “Allah has decreed Paradise for her because of it”. (Sahih Muslim)

And the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Anyone who cares for three daughters, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them with compassion, he/she will enter paradise.” A man asked, “What if one only has two, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has two.” Another man asked, “What if one only has one, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has one”. (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

And the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever has a daughter born to him, and he did not prefer his son over him, Allah will admit him to Paradise because of her” (Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

And he also specified sisters:
“There is no one who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he treats them well, but Allah will admit him/her to Paradise.” (Bukhari, Book of Manners)

And further:
“There is no one among my ummah who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he supports them until they are grown up, but he will be with me in Paradise like this” – and he held up his index and middle fingers together. (Tabaraani)

As for marriage, the Qur'an clarifies that is is a bond of love:
Qur'an 30:21 And among His signs is that He created mates from among yourselves that you may live in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts

Read what the Prophet (peace be upon him) has said in this matter:

“The best of you is the one who is best to his wife” (Sahih Ibn Hibban)

“None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully” (Sunan At-Tirmidhi)

“I command you to be kind to women” (Sahih Bukhari)

The renowned scholar of hadith, Imam Ad-Dhahabi (d. 1358CE) writes:
Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)
The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk[*]:
According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)
I could continue to quote more evidences and information, but instead I'll just refer you to some links for more info:
http://magic-city-news.com/article_2694.shtml
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...&main_cat_id=2
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Th...omen_in_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Li...through_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Ve...Not_Oppresive/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Ar..._Men_In_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Rights_In_Islam/
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/Islam_Degrades_Women/


Br. Iqram has provided the article found here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34
Another helpful site is found here:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/I...ng/index.shtml

I hope this helps. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.
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barney
03-27-2007, 02:14 AM
Thanks Ambrosia. I've a few questions relating to the interpretation.

Probably take a while to type out. I'm a 10 word a minuite bloke.:-[
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جوري
03-27-2007, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Thanks Ambrosia. I've a few questions relating to the interpretation.

Probably take a while to type out. I'm a 10 word a minuite bloke.:-[
I am a 10 second cut and paste gal...;D ;D

I hope I can be of help... but if your q's are beyond my sphere of expertise, I'll have to reference you to one of our more scholarly members... so take your time typing

peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-27-2007, 02:32 AM
Good post, could be better tho. If women want to flaunt, not my problem. But then id better not here them complain and cry of harassment, which i do constantly. But hey, what can u do about stupidity.
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.:Umniyah:.
03-27-2007, 03:03 AM
:sl: loved the post. very nicely put. Its so much more to say, but thats a good way to say alot in little words
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barney
03-27-2007, 04:28 AM
Hi. One of my reasons for joining this site is to find out about islam.
I have read the koran for many years and the Hadiths in some detail. i have read the teachings of several Imams and one of the areas I have great confusion about is a womans place in Islam. i'm told by Muslims, that it is "lofty" and "Treasured" I'm told by Islamaphobics that It is oppressive and restrictive. Heres my comments:


The translation of the Koran that I am familiar with is here.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

The Qur'an clarifies that piety alone, not gender or ethnicity, determines one's status with God:

Qur'an 49:13. O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most noble among you in the sight of Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.
This sets out as far as I see that the creator created Men & women. That’s fair enough, cant argue with that!

And the Qur'an further says about the rewards for men and women:
Qur'an 3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other


My translation says:

[3.195] So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other; they, therefore, who fled and were turned out of their homes and persecuted in My way and who fought and were slain, I will most certainly cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.

This misses out the Each of you is equal to the other. I suppose it could be taken as that. Here also, those who are persecuted or fight and die will receive paradise.


Qur'an 4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

Qur'an 16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.



Qur'an 40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.


That’s nice and clear. My translation adds in “and they are a believer. then they will enter heaven”, which again is fair enough. The three verses are in effect saying the same thing. Righteousness will grant access to heaven. (for both sexes).


33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and the greatest reward.So Allah’s reward is for both genders equally and this would support equality.


Islam raises the status of the parents and places specific emphasis on one's mother:

Qur'an 31:14 And [God says:] ‘We have enjoined upon man goodness towards his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his utter dependence on her lasted two years: [hence, O man,] be grateful towards Me and towards thy parents, [and remember that] with Me is all journeys’ end.”

That’s a nice passage.

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) asking “ O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man said “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said “Your mother”. The man asked, “then who else?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied “Your mother” When the man asked for the fourth time, only then did the Prophet (peace be upon him) say, “Your father” ( Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
Hmm. Dads are to be ¼ as respected as Mums. That’s not equality. I’m a Dad and whilst my wifes a great mother, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as only deserving 25% of my kids time. Modern perspective no doubt, but I don’t think that makes it wrong. (Im a Monotheist B.T.W not a Muslim)


Read the following incident from another famous companion, Abdullah Ibn Umar.
Abdullah Ibn Umar saw a Yemeni man performing pilgrimage carrying his mother on his back then the man said to Ibn Umar “ I am like a tame camel for her, I have carried her more than she has carried me! Do you think I have paid her back Ibn Umar?”
Ibn Umar said, “No, not even one contraction!” (Bukhari, Book of Manners)


Funny and true! It’s not to do with equality of women however.


Islam has also elevated the status of daughters. The following hadith establishes the unsurpassable reward for kind treatment of one's daugters.

Aisha, wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), said: “A poor woman came to me carrying her two daughters. I gave her three dates to eat. She gave each child a date, and raised the third to her own mouth to eat it. Her daughters asked her to give it to them, so she split the date that she had wanted to eat between them. I was impressed by what she had done, and told the Messenger of Allah P about it. He said, “Allah has decreed Paradise for her because of it”. (Sahih Muslim)

It’s doing a good deed. But if they had been sons, would have it been different? It’s not about equality of the sexes, it’s about being a selfless parent.

And the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Anyone who cares for three daughters, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them with compassion, he/she will enter paradise.” A man asked, “What if one only has two, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has two.” Another man asked, “What if one only has one, O’ Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Even if one only has one”. (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

Mohammed specifically mentioned daughters here and the need for good parenting (excepting the bit about marrying them off, which is a whole subject in itself to do with lack of choice and freedom in relationships) So Daughters are to be treated well. Sons?


“I command you to be kind to women” (Sahih Bukhari)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 114:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

In summary, I can see that all the above verses and Hadith indeed relate to kind treatment of women. Abilit the perspective is weighted from that of a man, but the society of that time, as today is a patriarchal one.
So, if all these are adhered to then where is the conception of Islam as being a oppressive religion towards women coming from?
The most commonly quoted allegations are as follows.

This Is a compalation of my own findings & the commentries of others. Some of them are minor points (theres not much slavery left these days)...some I feel a lot more major.

1) Women are to cover themselves to protect themselves from men. To look subserviently downwards and not rattle their jewelry.
24.31
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

2) That women are to have half the inheritance of men
004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

3) That a womans word is worth less and is less reliable than a mans
002.282
O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions ….. get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

4)Men have an advantage over women.
002.228
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

5) That men should wash after touching women before prayer
005.006
O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, ….Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

6) That captives or slaves can be married
004.003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

7) Angels cant be women. Admittedly the Bible doesn’t name any female angels, but it dosnt actually say they CANT be! Out of all the allegations levelled at Islam’s treatment of women, this is the daftest.
053.027
Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.

8) No sex with women outside marriage except for Slaves.
It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.

9) Women are Thick, Nagging, Ungrateful and lead men astray, they have cant pray during menses and are therefore deficient.

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
(sorry this is taking a long time..theres a fair bit to get through)
10) Women are mostly going to hell.
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."
11) Women can in certain conditions, ruin prayer as much as an animal. (although ibn abbas dosnt sound very certain about this)

Abu dawud Book 2, Number 0704:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw.
12) That women can be handed out as slaves
Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another."
From Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 447:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The people of (Banu) Quraiza agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Mu'adh. So the Prophet sent for Sad, and the latter came (riding) a donkey and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said to the Ansar, "Get up for your chief or for the best among you." Then the Prophet said (to Sad)." These (i.e. Banu Quraiza) have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "Kill their (men) warriors and take their offspring as captives, "On that the Prophet said, "You have judged according to Allah's Judgment,"

13). Men excel over women & Beating a wife is permitted, if she wont obay, (but only after other methods have failed)You must stop beating if the wife then obeys the man.
Surah 4:34- "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"
Book 004, Number 2127:
Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain,
14) Women have to obay men
Men are in charge (maintainers) of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
15) Wives must be available for men
002.223
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
16) Women are to be submissive.
[66.5] Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.
17) Women can’t lead very well.
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 219:
Narrated Abu Bakra:
During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

Anyway…I could ramble on there, but that’s a few of the reasons kuffer, like myself, look at verses and hadith and think…..whats going on here?
Everyone , including many muslim women, says that islam is equality and just towards women. There are of course thousands of letters books and Documetries from Islamic women who complain about their position.
I would like to point out here that I’m DEFINATLY NOT trying to just Attack Islam here. I accept all the verses that the Ambrosia above quoted as indeed being worthy and fair. My issue is that there is a lot of verses here that are being used to stifle womens rights.
What do you think?

Many thanks if you have read all this…. Right , I’m off for a drink!
Reply

siFilam
03-27-2007, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
What I see is equating women to a possession. :raging:
another excuse not to believe in Islam. The money and women argument was an analogy used to explain how people treat their valuables.
By the way, Western beliefs and action are always contradicting one another. You don’t equate women with possession yet there is no problem using women to acquire your possessions (ex money). If you don’t believe me, look at advertisement on billboards or commercials on TV. All most always women are used to sell the products or attract customers. I would post an advertisement I saw on a bus to prove my point but since this is an Islamic site the picture would be inappropriate.

-SI-
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 05:36 AM
Dear Barney... I am not ignoring your post!... I have in fact glanced over most of it just now... some of it can be easily refuted... some admittedly I have never come across before --nor is it concert with what I have learned and I have spent quite a few yrs of my life learning Islam in Saudi Arabia--... possible that due to it being way past my bed time and things aren't registering with me as well--

however I have forwarded your request to someone much more scholarly than I am and Insha'Allah he will have answers to your queries... just a tiny remark-- I can't let it go-- ( a woman thing) -- Women also heavily populate heaven as they populate hell... we just happen to outnumber men! --- as for the thousands of letters of oppressed women-- There is no doubt in my mind they exist...

I believe you can be battered woman in the U.S as you are in an Arabic country... being a wife of an atheist as you are of a Muslim... You can register at (uptodate.com) now and browse some research articles that will enable you to see that 10-15% of the population suffers from personality disorders... and that will be 10-15% in Saskatchewan or Kabul... it is a phenomenon happening independent of religion! So I'd stay away from generalization as they don't tend to give an accurate account or a complete picture of the truth...
until you get a more expansive reply to all your queries, then have a great evening.

peace
Reply

barney
03-27-2007, 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by siFilam
another excuse not to believe in Islam. The money and women argument was an analogy used to explain how people treat their valuables.
By the way, Western beliefs and action are always contradicting one another. You don’t equate women with possession yet there is no problem using women to acquire your possessions (ex money). If you don’t believe me, look at advertisement on billboards or commercials on TV. All most always women are used to sell the products or attract customers. I would post an advertisement I saw on a bus to prove my point but since this is an Islamic site the picture would be inappropriate.

-SI-

Valuables relates to possessions.

Images of Men and Women sell products equally. But that's got nothing to do with possession. That arguement dosnt actually make any sense.
Reply

barney
03-27-2007, 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Dear Barney... I am not ignoring your post!... I
peace

Thanks Ambrosia for forwarding it.

i'm just finishing a night shift here, so I'm off to sleep myself now.

Regards
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 05:51 AM
I'd have to argue against men selling products equally--- I have never seen a man gyrate his body to sell me beer.... but I have seen women gyrate to sell anything from shampoo to hard liquor ... hmmmmmmn

peace
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-27-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
But then that is only my opinion. :skeleton:
hehe :p


:)


i love the mufti's come back, nothin more precious to a man then his wife :)
Reply

Helena
03-27-2007, 09:38 AM
jazaks for the intresting article....

i've posted this thread long time ago......(hope am ruining ur thread)

heres the link...

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...-inshalah.html
Reply

Snowflake
03-27-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I'd have to argue against men selling products equally--- I have never seen a man gyrate his body to sell me beer.... but I have seen women gyrate to sell anything from shampoo to hard liquor ... hmmmmmmn

peace
lololol well said sis.. ;D ;D ;D

that says it all!
Reply

SATalha
03-27-2007, 11:30 AM
Ur post was great purestambrosia
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 02:47 PM
Eh... until he gets a reply back-- I am going to address another thing in his post (which he indicated as a whole other topic) concerning ("marrying your daughters off")... it is a woman's choice to whom she wishes to be wed... if she is to be wed against her will.. the marriage would be null and void by Islamic law.... as evidenced in this hadith...... Now I feel like it would take me all day to study and refute this post point by point... but I really have to work on more pressing projects today-- So hopefully with a little more patience all will be addressed and thoroughly insha'Allah......

Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Originally Posted by barney

Mohammed specifically mentioned daughters here and the need for good parenting (excepting the bit about marrying them off, which is a whole subject in itself to do with lack of choice and freedom in relationships) So Daughters are to be treated well. Sons?

[/B]
addendum: Well I hope I have answered the bit about good parenting up to and including your parenthesis portion... however I am not sure I understand why you are brining the "sons" part into it-- if you had originally requested Quranic verses and Hadiths as per regard to women?



:w:
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 03:32 PM
A lot of Muslim women choose to 'cover up' and stay at home of their own volition.
The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect.

I don't like the example in the first post, but I'm not fond of the ensuing swipes at Islamic practices either.
I was pointing at what the analogy was implying rather than Islamic practices as a whole.

another excuse not to believe in Islam.
What if someone just doesn't want to believe in Islam full stop?

don’t equate women with possession yet there is no problem using women to acquire your possessions (ex money).
1. Not all Westerners feel this way.
2. Western Women who are half-naked on television, billboards to advertise a product do it out of their own free-will. That is not oppression, nor is it a degradation to them being a material possession.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect..
Does implying one automatically invalidate the other? In other words --is the fact that he states some women like to stay at home on their own volition without loss of dignity and respect automatically mean your non-Muslim woman who chooses to work has in fact lost her dignity and respect? I personally didn't read that into it... Considering most Muslim women I know are respectful professionals.


Originally Posted by Skavau
What if someone just doesn't want to believe in Islam full stop?
Then they don't--

Originally Posted by Skavau
2. Western Women who are half-naked on television, billboards to advertise a product do it out of their own free-will. That is not oppression, nor is it a degradation to them being a material possession.
How can you make that assumption? Any form of objectifying women thereby reducing them to nothing more than an instrument to please men or sell a product or tantalize you on a late Saturday night is a form of oppression!

I don't really think you can speak for all women who choose to work questionable professions-- Go ahead and run a double blinded randomized trial requesting an honest reply from half naked women --if they would accept the same amount they would have otherwise, to run on TV or a billboard in their panties for a more dignified option-- and then can we label it as the (free will in action) or the pay check screaming!....

Any form of taking your clothes off for money is a form of prostitution! -- albeit a more socially acceptable form than the street workers! Any woman who does it because she likes it would be classified in DSM-IV as a Narcissist or an Exhibitionist -- both are serious personality disorders!

peace!
Reply

Muezzin
03-27-2007, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
The same applies with Non-Islamic women. They choose to not cover up and leave the house. Non-Islamic women doing that has nothing to do with a loss of dignity and respect.
I was not implying otherwise.

I was pointing at what the analogy was implying rather than Islamic practices as a whole.
Okay.
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 04:38 PM
How can you make that assumption? Any form of objectifying women thereby reducing them to nothing more than an instrument to please men or sell a product or tantalize you on a late Saturday night is a form of oppression!
Oppression:
to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism. Courtesy of dictionary.com

As long as the women are doing it out of their own free-will, then it is not oppression.

I don't really think you can speak for all women who choose to work questionable professions
Correct, I can't - but they choose to do the professions - do they not?

if they would accept the same amount they would have otherwise, to run on TV or a billboard in their panties for a more dignified option-- and then can we label it as the (free will in action) or the pay check screaming!....
Their reasons for doing it is irrelevent. It is not a forced profession in any developed country and if they do it for the money, then they are still doing it out of free-choice.
Reply

Muezzin
03-27-2007, 04:43 PM
In male-dominated cultures, women will always be objectified. Systems, such as religion, or law, can be put into place to either eliminate or restrict such objectification, but it's a constant problem with many cultures, sadly.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Oppression:
to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism. Courtesy of dictionary.com.
please don't patronize me...I am not going to sit here and argue semantics with you--- here is another definition courtesy of meriam webster since you are so big on words...
oppress
One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1

To do something that is physically or emotionally unacceptable for financial reasons would therefore be a form of oppression!... what is your point?



Originally Posted by Skavau
As long as the women are doing it out of their own free-will, then it is not oppression.
As long as perverts pay big for it... the desperate will do it-- making it a form of prostitution-- if oppression is linguistically unappealing to you!
Originally Posted by Skavau
Correct, I can't -
Agreed... so don't speak on their behalf!


Originally Posted by Skavau
Their reasons for doing it is irrelevent. It is not a forced profession in any developed country and if they do it for the money, then they are still doing it out of free-choice.
Yes... people are certainly free to be degenerates! and the reasons are very relevant it is the crux of this topic...
Reply

edil
03-27-2007, 05:19 PM
Masha'allah that was a really nice metaphor it describes something to something else when it really means something else. Masha'allah that mufti was really wise at first I didnt get where he was coming from then I understood.....May Allah reward those who take the right path.
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 05:57 PM
One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1
Prove that all women who engage in modelling and other jobs related to it are overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed.

And that is a poor definition of oppress.

To do something that is physically or emotionally unacceptable for financial reasons would therefore be a form of oppression!... what is your point?
Not everyone who does that feels that way.

Agreed... so don't speak on their behalf!
I'm not speaking on their behalf. You yourself are unwittingly speaking on their behalf by making the enormous generalisation that everyone who does it is overwhelmed and emotionally distressed.

Yes... people are certainly free to be degenerates! and the reasons are very relevant it is the crux of this topic...
And what is your opinion of Women in a Western Society, may I ask? And your opinion on the Hijab?

Rev: It will get stolen, obviously.
Mufti: You keep your money hidden because it is so valuable. We value the true worth of women far, far more. Therefore, these precious jewels are not on display to one and all. They are kept in honour and dignity....
This is an assumption of paranoia. If Mufti agrees with Rev's statement that money is kept locked away because it will get stolen, and then equates to women - he is not only implying women are a material possession - to be kept safe and secure, he is also implying that there is a risk of women being stolen and my only conclusion is that is the case is the fear of rape.

Honour and dignity too does not equal the support of one being behind closed doors. It equals the position of freedom. Women are safe in a Western Society. They are not second class citizens and they are not treated as sex objects all the time as some of you like to assume (or give the impression of such).
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Prove that all women who engage in modelling and other jobs related to it are overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed.

And that is a poor definition of oppress.
The burden of proof isn't on me to validate anything... You have come here leaving statements of disenchantment to the original post...To which we have pointed serious flaws! As for your like or dislike of the definition -- take it out with Meriam- webster.. a word can be used to mean many different things... are we arguing women' rights or your dislike of poor definitions?

Originally Posted by Skavau
Not everyone who does that feels that way.

Have you modeled half naked on a billboard?
Originally Posted by Skavau
I'm not speaking on their behalf. You yourself are unwittingly speaking on their behalf by making the enormous generalisation that everyone who does it is overwhelmed and emotionally distressed.
I am making an enormous generalization that everyone who engages in that life style is committing a form of acceptable prostitution... and rightfully so.. without regard to your definitions or their feelings of how politically incorrect it is....

Originally Posted by Skavau
And what is your opinion of Women in a Western Society, may I ask? And your opinion on the Hijab?
None of your business what my opinion is of western women or Hijab...
Originally Posted by Skavau
This is an assumption of paranoia. If Mufti agrees with Rev's statement that money is kept locked away because it will get stolen, and then equates to women - he is not only implying women are a material possession - to be kept safe and secure, he is also implying that there is a risk of women being stolen and my only conclusion is that is the case is the fear of rape.

Honour and dignity too does not equal the support of one being behind closed doors. It equals the position of freedom. Women are safe in a Western Society. They are not second class citizens and they are not treated as sex objects all the time as some of you like to assume (or give the impression of such).
Nothing in Islam prohibits a woman from becoming educated or "locked away" Hind RA during the time of the prophet had even requested to take from the state fund to start her own business and was allowed... the prophet worked for his first wife... women went out there in the battle field along side men-- such as (Om 'omara), women were allowed to vote during the time time of the Prophet-- Women were/are granted rights in Islam that weren't even heard of during the mid half of last century in your civilized west-- tell me how long ago was it that a black woman was asked to be move to the back of the bus for a white man? or how still in modern day women don't make equal pay to men for doing the same job!

Go ahead and browse the "How educated are you thread" to keep from further humiliating yourself with false assumptions... There are more women doctors in Egypt than there are women doctors in the united states... there are more women sitting in the Iranian parliament than there are women in the house of representatives in the united states.... How many Muslims countries have you traveled to and how many Muslim women have you interviewed to come up with your erroneous analogies?
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 06:25 PM
The burden of proof isn't on me to validate anything...
Yes it is, you made a claim that women who model and engage in similar jobs become overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed. Please prove?

You have come here leaving statements of disenchantment to the original post
Yes I did. Although we've gone from that to women's rights since then.

take it out with Meriam- webster.. a word can be used to mean many different things... are we arguing women' rights or your dislike of poor definitions?
Women's rights. I was just pointing out that it was a poor definition.

Have you modeled half naked on a billboard?
No. But I'm not making swooping statements encompassing every woman that does model half naked on billboards.

I am making an enormous generalization that everyone who engages in that life style is committing a form of acceptable prostitution... and rightfully so.. without regard to your definitions or their feelings of how politically incorrect it is....
Exactly, so you're doing exactly what you accuse me of. Speaking on their behalf.

None of your business what my opinion is of western women or Hijab...
I was just asking, as it would allow me to gain more insight on exactly what position you stand on.

Nothing in Islam prohibits a woman from becoming educated or "locked away
I never said it did. I was referring to the article's idea.

go ahead and browse the "How educated are you thread" to keep from further humiliating yourself with false assumptions... There are more women doctors in Egypt than there are women doctors in the united states... there are more women sitting in the Iranian parliament than there are women in the house of representatives in the united states.... How many Muslims countries have you traveled to and how many Muslim women have you interviewed to come up with your erroneous analogies?
I was referring to what the ARTICLE was saying. It was not a swooping statement on Islamic beliefs.

And I would not recommend using Egypt as a pinnacle of human rights.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Yes it is, you made a claim that women who model and engage in similar jobs become overwhelmed, depressed and emotionally distressed. Please prove?.
you bore me like a child with a tantrum... Who reads and concludes what he wants in between the lines.......


Originally Posted by Skavau
Yes I did. Although we've gone from that to women's rights since then..
Then stop going off on tangential topics......
Originally Posted by Skavau
Women's rights. I was just pointing out that it was a poor definition..
And I stated-- take it out with Meriam-Webster...

Originally Posted by Skavau
No. But I'm not making swooping statements encompassing every woman that does model half naked on billboards..
I stand by the statements... is every hooker also a prostitute? I think it is safe to make that assumption! It doesn't matter where on the spectrum of taking your clothes off and how much money in exchange...


Originally Posted by Skavau
I was just asking, as it would allow me to gain more insight on exactly what position you stand on. .
Pls don't try to analyze my Psyche with your half baked deep insights using an "esteemed" third party form of psycho- analysis

Originally Posted by Skavau
I never said it did. I was referring to the article's idea..
Oh sorry -- my bad!

Originally Posted by Skavau
I was referring to what the ARTICLE was saying. It was not a swooping statement on Islamic beliefs.

And I would not recommend using Egypt as a pinnacle of human rights.
Are we speaking of women's rights in Islam or human rights in a so-called Islamic country? try to focus on one task at a time, and don't suggest to me recommendations!

peace!
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 06:50 PM
you bore me like a child with a tantrum... Who reads and concludes what he wants in between the lines.......
So what have I misinterpeted then? You claimed a few posts back, or at least made links from modelling to depression and emotional distress. If you are making the claim that those fields cause such, then you must prove that this is the case.

If you make a swooping statement, you must prove it.

Pls don't try to analyze my Psyche with your half baked deep insights using an "esteemed" third party form of psycho- analysis
Uhm... what? That is not my motivation. I just wanted to know what your opinion on two topics are:
1. Women in Western World.
2. The Hijab.

That was it. And you have to take it as a personal attack? I think you've got some problems with me as every post by you is coming off as aggressive. Although if I asked what that was, you'd probably act offended.

Are we speaking of women's rights in Islam or human rights in a so-called Islamic country? try to focus on one task at a time, and don't suggest to me recommendations!
Human rights.

And excuse me? You seem to get angry whenever I make a suggestion to anything. Why shouldn't I point out my view? I'm not allowed to ask you your opinion on topics, and now I'm not allowed to put across my view of using Egypt as an example?

I think this is gone as free discussion.
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- Qatada -
03-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Hey Barney.


If you're still checking this thread, i'd like you to check this link out as it clears many of those misconceptions which have - praise is for Allaah - been refuted by brother Ansar on this forum. You can access them here:

http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2


When he comes on, inshaa Allaah he will discuss it with you.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
So what have I misinterpeted then? You claimed a few posts back, or at least made links from modelling to depression and emotional distress. If you are making the claim that those fields cause such, then you must prove that this is the case..
I have stated that objectifying women is a form of oppression to which you have included your own definition of what oppression is.. and we have included a different one... and then you have made all sorts of conclusions since...



Originally Posted by Skavau
Uhm... what? That is not my motivation. I just wanted to know what your opinion on two topics are:
1. Women in Western World.
2. The Hijab.

And you have to take it as a personal attack? I think you've got some problems with me as every post by you is coming off as aggressive. Although if I asked what that was, you'd probably act offended.
You have a speech impediment-- for I don't recognize (uhm) as a viable word with a meaning-- and by same token certainly wouldn't want you making more jaded conclusions and false assumptions... Suffice it to say, if I wanted a rational opinion of my beliefs, yours wouldn't be the ones I seek!


Originally Posted by Skavau
And excuse me? You seem to get angry whenever I make a suggestion to anything. Why shouldn't I point out my view? I'm not allowed to ask you your opinion on topics, and now I'm not allowed to put across my view of using Egypt as an example?

I think this is gone as free discussion.

You are indeed excused! for three wrong conclusions...
I am far from angry-- simply mildy amused on how long you wish to keep this up?
2-You should most certainly share your views as pertains to the topic at hand and not branch out all over the place...
3-I am not sure what your definition is of a "free discussion" are we free to discuss guillain barre in this section?


peace!
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 07:18 PM
I have stated that objectifying women is a form of oppression to which you have included your own definition of what oppression is.. and we have included a different one... and then you have made all sorts of conclusions since...
One entry found for oppress.

Entry Word: oppress
Text: 1 to make sad <this gloomy weather is oppressing all of us> -- see DEPRESS 1
2 to subject to incapacitating emotional or mental stress <I'm simply oppressed by the demands of my job and schoolwork> -- see OVERWHELM 1
Oh. It looks like I misread the post. I was under the assumption you typed 'OVERWHELM' and 'DEPRESS' in order to make a point about those in modelling. I apologise.

You have a speech impediment
No I don't.

for I don't recognize (uhm) as a viable word with a meaning
What has that got to do with anything? It isn't a word, so what? You're just trying to make personal attacks.

and by same token certainly wouldn't want you making more jaded conclusions and false assumptions
Jaded conclusions and false assumptions about what?

Suffice it to say, if I wanted a rational opinion of my beliefs, yours wouldn't be the ones I seek!
I only asked for your beliefs on the matter for the sake of discussion. When two people discuss a topic, it is helpful to know each others beliefs on certain matters on the topic. You seemed to act offended when I asked out of curiousity what your opinions on the matter were.

2-You should most certainly share your views as pertains to the topic at hand and not branch out all over the place...
I have generally kept to the topic at hand. I've only made a comment about Egypt's human rights.

3-I am not sure what your definition is of a "free discussion" are we free to discuss guillain barre in this section?
Well this example isn't a free discussion:

Person A: I think children should be disciplined harsher.
Person B: I disagree! Too much discipline is bad.
Person A: What are your opinions on spanking children?
Person B: That's none of your business!
Person A: ...

Or

Person B: That's not true! X is very good in achieving Y!
Person A: I don't think X is a good example to be using in relation to Y.
Person B: Don't make recommendations to me!
Person A: ...

See what I mean? You're limiting the discussion. I can't force you to do anything and I wouldn't want to even try, but when you act aggressive and hostile to me (and despite your claims of amusement - I am getting this impression) as well as refuse to talk about certain parts of the topic, it no longer becomes a discussion.
Reply

.:Umniyah:.
03-27-2007, 07:29 PM
umm wow okay i think a mod could step in at anytime now and close this thread. Because i highly doubt that this was the intention of the post. and Conversations are starting to really get out of hand here.:omg:
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Oh. It looks like I misread the post. I was under the assumption you typed 'OVERWHELM' and 'DEPRESS' in order to make a point about those in modelling. I apologise..
This is what was found under Oppress in meriam webster-- you are free to look it up yourself.. it was certainly nothing I have typed but a mere defintion such as the one you so generousely included http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/thesaurus?boo...rus&va=oppress



Originally Posted by Skavau
I only asked for your beliefs on the matter for the sake of discussion. When two people discuss a topic, it is helpful to know each others beliefs on certain matters on the topic. You seemed to act offended when I asked out of curiousity what your opinions on the matter were. .
It doesn't come across for the sake of discussion-- more for the sake of vain discourse.. to which I refuse to partake-- Again I am not offended!

Originally Posted by Skavau
Person B: That's not true! X is very good in achieving Y!
Person A: I don't think X is a good example to be using in relation to Y.
Person B: Don't make recommendations to me!
Person A: ...

See what I mean-- this is the ? You're limiting the discussion. I can't force you to do anything and I wouldn't want to even try, but when you act aggressive and hostile to me (and despite your claims of amusement - I am getting this impression) as well as refuse to talk about certain parts of the topic, it no longer becomes a discussion.
No, I don't see what you mean-- this is the strangest assimilation I have come across thus far...& I think hostility can be mutually found in your posts... as for refusing to talk about certain parts... if/when you stick to the topic at hand can we then discuss it in details. I will not branch out to every interjecting whim you choose to bring in because you somehow think it is relevant!...

peace!
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 07:34 PM
It doesn't come across for the sake of discussion-- more for the sake of vain discourse.. to which I refuse to partake-- Again I am not offended!
How so? We're talking about Women's Rights? So I ask you of your opinions of women in the western world and the hijab.

No, I don't see what you mean-- this is the strangest assimilation I have come across thus far...& I think hostility can be mutually found in your posts... as for refusing to talk about certain parts... if/when you stick to the topic at hand can we then discuss it in details. I will not branch out to every interjecting whim you choose to bring in...
I've only asked you your opinions on women in the western world and the hijab.

Anyway, I'm out for a bit now. May not respond until later.


See ya.
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
How so? We're talking about Women's Rights? So I ask you of your opinions of women in the western world and the hijab.

I've only asked you your opinions on women in the western world and the hijab.

See ya.
If a Muslim woman wishes to wear a head scarf... it is her right to do so
if the west boasts of freedom --I take it to mean (freedom of )not freedom from...
Freedom of religion not freedom from religion
Freedom of speech not freedom from speech that speaks of values and ethics different than what you reckon they ought to be --

freedom and tolerance applies not only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, as to not be making mockery of tolerance, and freedom-- which is by definition is readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values and who worship or dress differently from you...

What western women do or don't do-- doesn't bother me in the least unless it affects me personally.... If I see a naked woman on TV, I'll switch the channel hoping that the young ones in the house didn't see it--I can't unfortunately do the same with a billboard... so it becomes incumbent upon me to enforce lowering ones gaze whilst driving... on some level I feel sorry for women who opt for that life style...

As for my colleagues at work who are western -- they are the respectful sort and do share greatly in my value system...So I can't make a statement that all western women are such or all Muslim women are such... that takes away from the value and the individual self!...

I, still however maintain that anyone who favors the porn, modeling or street walking, acting in lewd movies is objectified-- and that is something that Islam prohibits .. and in that regard a woman is protected as the Mufti states.. a Precious Jewel not a flaunted object for gawking men!

peace!
Reply

Camomilla
03-27-2007, 08:13 PM
very nice post!
thanx for the share, Jazakallah Khair!
Reply

جوري
03-27-2007, 09:55 PM
I just want to add that Women of the west who I assume are predominantly Christian... surely there are 2 billion Christians in the world distributed mostly in the west? should they honor their own scriptures.. it would be incumbent upon them as well to wear a head scarf... so what do you know-- when it comes right down to it-- we should all be equally matched........ Muslims for the most part choose to observe their religion, I believe some Jews do as well! so what is wrong with the rest of the free west?

(1 Corinthians 11:3-12)

The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
Reply

Skavau
03-27-2007, 10:18 PM
I just want to add that Women of the west who I assume are predominantly Christian... surely there are 2 billion Christians in the world distributed mostly in the west?
Not really. On paper most people in western countries are Christian, but in certain countries - ( especially UK, Most of Scandinavia, Czech Republic, Balkan States) I would not be surprised if non-religious individuals were the majority.

is wrong with the rest of the free west?
A good proportion of the west just isn't religious, especially Europe.

And in reference to your (PurestAmbrosias) beliefs about what I asked, I agree on these points:
- Women have the right to wear (if they choose) the hijab.
- I agree about your dislike of billboards and I think that billboards need a certain degree of restrictions imposed on them.
- I agree that women are over-objectified in many Western States to a degree.

However, I disagree with your statements:
- I take freedom to mean Freedom of religion and freedom from religion (although this isn't currently the topic)
- I can't imagine seeing a naked person on mainstream television unless you're watching a late-night program, or are on a dodgy television channel.
-
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جوري
03-27-2007, 10:33 PM
Yes agreed Christian on paper!--- but if they were to follow... they would find themselves in no different a situation than most observing Muslim women!

I don't know if you have seen any of the dove ads running on day time TV?... Would love to share them here but I can't as it is against forum rules!

peace!
Reply

Muezzin
03-27-2007, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by .:Umniyah:.
umm wow okay i think a mod could step in at anytime now and close this thread. Because i highly doubt that this was the intention of the post. and Conversations are starting to really get out of hand here.:omg:
Very true.

What started as a few stray posts in this thread have now resulted in this thread mutating into one about women's rights.

There are many 'Women's Rights In Islam'-type threads that are just a search function away.

I am closing this thread because it has strayed too far from the original post.
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