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Phoenix CG
03-27-2007, 04:10 PM
I made this post on another forum but feel free to reply here.

If there are no organisation that does not represent Muslims, for example, MPAC or MCB or BMF, many muslims will say these organisations do not represent us Muslims, so is there a need for a "democratic" (people powered) organisation which listens to all of its members of the Muslim community to bring a better solution, by ignoring areas of the Muslim community, the organisations are creating not only divisions, but encouraging a lack of communications and lack of education for the whole muslim community.

Would Masjidi not be the perfect candidate for this sort of system? Where individuals can put through there concerns on the forum and people can use dialogue to communicate and find solutions.

Masjidi will be developing sites for all masjids in the uk and possibly USA, so doesn't this mean we would have a higher level of communication?

I would like to see your input.

http://member.masjidi.org/index.php?...&st=0&#entry23
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Phoenix CG
I made this post on another forum but feel free to reply here.

Currently Muslims have nobdoy to represent them.
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siFilam
03-28-2007, 06:50 PM
:salamext:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Currently Muslims have nobdoy to represent them.
thats not true...the respected Scholars of Islam who follow the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat represent us. May Allah, The Most Exlated, have mercy on them and increase their number. AMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNN.

Wasalam
-SI-
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
:salamext:


thats not true...the respected Scholars of Islam who follow the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat represent us. May Allah, The Most Exlated, have mercy on them and increase their number. AMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNN.

Wasalam
-SI-
The job of the scholars is to do reaserach. The scholars of Islam update the knowledge of Islam for us. They don't have adequate knowledge of Muslims. They don't know what problems Muslims are facing in their daily lives. They also don't have approperiate knowledge or resources to get the Muslims out of their growing problems.

In fact Muslims are facing the worst leadership crisis in their history. All those who don't posses enough leadership qualities wish to lead Muslims; and those who have some leadership abilities don't wish to represent Muslims.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-28-2007, 08:02 PM
How can they not know problems Muslims are facing when they themselves ARE Muslims? They too are human beings who face trials. They are more learned than ordinary Muslims.
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Umar001
03-28-2007, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
The job of the scholars is to do reaserach. The scholars of Islam update the knowledge of Islam for us. They don't have adequate knowledge of Muslims. They don't know what problems Muslims are facing in their daily lives. They also don't have approperiate knowledge or resources to get the Muslims out of their growing problems.

In fact Muslims are facing the worst leadership crisis in their history. All those who don't posses enough leadership qualities wish to lead Muslims; and those who have some leadership abilities don't wish to represent Muslims.
Maybe you are speaking of scholars you know of.

For us there are chances, we can be better Muslims, what do you want the scholar to do set up an islamic state on their own? Come on, Scholars have done what they can, scholars who listen to the cries of the Muslims, who study and put time aside during their daily routine to listen to the news of all around the world.

But they are not super humans.

If you ask the Muslims in the Uk what are their priorities, let me tell you what I see here, in my college, in my area, I see muslims, looking to make money, looking to buy a house to settle down, I see Muslims shaving, wearing tight clothes OUT OF CHOICE, I see sisters uncovered, is that the scholar's fault?

Muslim leaders don't come out of nowhere they are a reflection of their society.
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siFilam
03-28-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
The job of the scholars is to do reaserach. The scholars of Islam update the knowledge of Islam for us. They don't have adequate knowledge of Muslims. They don't know what problems Muslims are facing in their daily lives. They also don't have approperiate knowledge or resources to get the Muslims out of their growing problems.

In fact Muslims are facing the worst leadership crisis in their history. All those who don't posses enough leadership qualities wish to lead Muslims; and those who have some leadership abilities don't wish to represent Muslims.
Its true that Muslims are facing leadership crisis. This is due to the fact that the head of every Muslim countries are corrupt, backward Muslims who abandoned the Shariah and Sunnah and are following their polytheists counterparts. This is not our Scholars fault (May Allah have Mercy on them). The Scholars job is not limited to do research. Your idea of a scholar is similar to the western academics working in universities. Islamic Scholars preserve and propagate our religion. Thus they are the inheritors of the Prophets (peace be upon them). They are the best among our Ummah.
May Allah have mercy on them and increase their number.
AAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNN :D

*note that I am only referring the scholars who follow Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat. not the deviated ones.
and Allah knows best.
wasalam
-SI-
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
How can they not know problems Muslims are facing when they themselves ARE Muslims? They too are human beings who face trials. They are more learned than ordinary Muslims.
The biggest problem for the majority of Muslims is job problem. They don't find good jobs in their own countries. They've to leave their homeland to find jobs in other countries as second class citizens.

Do the relgious scholars know this?

If yes, then what program they have with which they'd solve our problems?
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Umar001
03-28-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
The biggest problem for the majority of Muslims is job problem. They don't find good jobs in their own countries. They've to leave their homeland to find jobs in other countries as second class citizens.

Do the relgious scholars know this?

If yes, then what program they have with which they'd solve our problems?
what are good jobs? A job where you can afford a Mercs? maybe people want good jobs at the expense of other things.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-28-2007, 08:17 PM
Why are u limiting problems to just jobs? Its not just job problems we as Muslims face. Are you somehow stuck on the idea of jobs? Cuz you kinda always bring it up in posts like these. Dont you think they have family or friends who cant find jobs? And jobs isnt the biggest problem. Some have BIGGER problems than just that my friend. If you at least have food, transportation or means of communication and a roof over your head, id say its good enough. Anymore is a plain waste of money.
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*charisma*
03-28-2007, 08:26 PM
They don't know what problems Muslims are facing in their daily lives. They also don't have approperiate knowledge or resources to get the Muslims out of their growing problems. All those who don't posses enough leadership qualities wish to lead Muslims; and those who have some leadership abilities don't wish to represent Muslims.
Wrong. I could even tell you what problems Muslims are facing and I don't even need to be a Muslim nor a Muslim scholar. I could also tell you how to get the Muslims out of their growing problems without being a Muslim or a Muslim scholar. The problems facing Muslims today is not an issue that can be resolved by just one person or a few. The best leader needs followers. If the Muslims themselves don't care about following, then the problem doesn't lie within the scholars/leaders but the Muslims themselves. Each individual is responsible for his part in the destruction of the Ummah's unity. You can't put the blame on just one person because they are knowledgable enough to do their righteous part while the rest of group is unwilling to reach and pass their potential.

The biggest problem for the majority of Muslims is job problem. They don't find good jobs in their own countries. They've to leave their homeland to find jobs in other countries as second class citizens.

Do the relgious scholars know this?

If yes, then what program they have with which they'd solve our problems?
Before hitting the issue of wealth (jobs and money), hit the issue of education, both religious and secular. Its their lack of education that isn't giving them the wealth they need. He who has knowledge can find a job anywhere in the world. The uneducated seek physical labor and that can only get them so far.
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Why are u limiting problems to just jobs? Its not just job problems we as Muslims face. Are you somehow stuck on the idea of jobs? Cuz you kinda always bring it up in posts like these. Dont you think they have family or friends who cant find jobs? And jobs isnt the biggest problem. Some have BIGGER problems than just that my friend. If you at least have food, transportation or means of communication and a roof over your head, id say its good enough. Anymore is a plain waste of money.
Job is just one problem to give you an example. Muslims are facing many political, economic and social problems. They need somebody to represent them for these serious problems. Religious scholars have no clue about what to do for these problems. It's not their job either.
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Umar001
03-28-2007, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Job is just one problem to give you an example. Muslims are facing many political, economic and social problems. They need somebody to represent them for these serious problems. Religious scholars have no clue about what to do for these problems.
Are you so unaware?

Where do you live? Because what your saying is amazing, you see, you claim all this but the Muslims are themselves not sticking to the basics of their religion.

They move for better jobs? For better lives? But when they get here they dont cover? They dont adhere to the Islamic rules?

Akhi your making mistakes.
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Are you so unaware?

Where do you live? Because what your saying is amazing, you see, you claim all this but the Muslims are themselves not sticking to the basics of their religion.

They move for better jobs? For better lives? But when they get here they dont cover? They dont adhere to the Islamic rules?

Akhi your making mistakes.
Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why. Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower. Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars. The religious schlars have made their followers do all kinds of destructions in and outside their homelands; but they could not make the Muslims do a single contructive job other than constructing mosques and madrisas for themselves.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-28-2007, 08:47 PM
Edit
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-28-2007, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why. Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower. Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars. The religious schlars have made their followers do all kinds of destructions in and outside their homelands; but they could not make the Muslims do a single contructive job other than constructing mosques and madrisas for themselves.
Now your just generalizing. "How low can you go...":rollseyes

Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?
Can u contradict yourself anymore akhi??
The Scholars are Muslims too!
Do you want to put all the blame on scholars?
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Now your just generalizing. "How low can you go...":rollseyes



Can u contradict yourself anymore akhi??
The Scholars are Muslims too!
Do you want to put all the blame on scholars?
Here, I'm not putting the blame on scholars. You're confusing scholars with the representatives. Representatives are like ordinary Muslims but have some leadership skills. They represent them in different departments like the lawyers represent their clients in the courts of law.

Muslims respect their religious schloars but they don't consider them as good candidates for leadership. Or you may say that no religious scholar has impressed the Muslims as a leader. Try to find out the reason behind this. People want their leadership to devise some strategies in order to solve their problems. They don't somebody to keep them busy in creating more problems for themselves with hollow slogans. When they destroy their own public property or transport, it doesn't decrease any of their problems. It only increases their problems. This is what religious activist leaders do. A non-activist religious scholar is just a scholar. He doesn't present himself to be a leader at all. Then how do you think Muslims would choose him as their leader.
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siFilam
03-28-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Muslims respect their religious schloars but they don't consider them as good candidates for leadership.
You should have said "I, Iqbal soofi, don't consider them (muslim scholars) as good candidates for leadership." Who made you the spokesperson for the Muslims because I would definitely like to see our Scholars rule those so called Islamic countries based on the true ways of the Shariah and Sunnah.

-SI-
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Phoenix CG
03-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
You should have said "I, Iqbal soofi, don't consider them (muslim scholars) as good candidates for leadership." Who made you the spokesperson for the Muslims because I would definitely like to see our Scholars rule those so called Islamic countries based on the true ways of the Shariah and Sunnah.

-SI-
Agree - Denying sharia and the rule of Islam if there is the chance is obviously not a good thing. The scholars should be at the top of the hierarchy.
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
You should have said "I, Iqbal soofi, don't consider them (muslim scholars) as good candidates for leadership." Who made you the spokesperson for the Muslims because I would definitely like to see our Scholars rule those so called Islamic countries based on the true ways of the Shariah and Sunnah.
I'm not the spokesman of Muslims. I'm telling you what I observed. Muslims do all kinds of things on the motivation of religious scholars but only a few fanatics vote for them.


Originally Posted by Phoenix CG
The scholars should be at the top of the hierarchy.
Only their fans think like that. Majority thinks otherwise. Majority may or maynot be always right, but opinion of majority is always better than the opinion of a few fanatics.
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siFilam
03-28-2007, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
I'm not the spokesman of Muslims. I'm telling you what I observed. Muslims do all kinds of things on the motivation of religious scholars but only a few fanatics vote for them.
I think you are generalizing too much here. Sure there are many who received training similar to the real Scholars of Islam and now they are involved in politics. Their actions contradict Sunnah and Qur'an and their aims are to acquire power and status in this world. I can give many examples from my own country, Bangladesh. These people are not considered Scholars of Islam regardless what they may claim. May Allah expose their hypocrisy. Ameen.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Only their fans think like that. Majority thinks otherwise. Majority may or maynot be always right, but opinion of majority is always better than the opinion of a few fanatics.
majority meaning the progressive Muslims. Your so called majority are too weak to practice Islam according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. That is why they try to discredit our respected Scholars.

May Allah bless our Scholars, have mercy on them and increase their number.
AAAAAAMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNN.

-SI-
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
I think you are generalizing too much here. Sure there are many who received training similar to the real Scholars of Islam and now they are involved in politics. Their actions contradict Sunnah and Qur'an and their aims are to acquire power and status in this world. I can give many examples from my own country, Bangladesh. These people are not considered Scholars of Islam regardless what they may claim. May Allah expose their hypocrisy. Ameen.



majority meaning the progressive Muslims. Your so called majority are too weak to practice Islam according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. That is why they try to discredit our respected Scholars.

May Allah bless our Scholars, have mercy on them and increase their number.
AAAAAAMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNN.

-SI-


You are a little too much sentimental about the religious scholars. Majority also becomes sentimental sometimes after listening to sentimental speeches of the religious scholars. But when it comes to the practial life Muslim majority is very wise and rational. They don't make sentimental decisions while choosing their leadership. You may call the Muslim majority as bad or whatever, but they make the right decision.

Religious scholars may be knowing a lot of Islam these days, rather more than anybody ever knew about it in history. But they hardly know about the political issues and their solutions. People elect only those to represent who know not only about their issues, but also know the ways and means to fulfil the aspirations and demands of the people of a nation. Do the religious scholars know the capabilites, talents, aspirations and demands of Muslims? and do they have any program or plan how to make these work for the benefit of Muslims? The answer is that the religious scholars don't have any clue of any of these import requirments. Therefore, only some fool will condiser them as a candidate.
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Umar001
03-28-2007, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

Akhi, who do you want to blame? Scholars have spoken on what we need to do. A person sins it's their fault. True we don't have a Khalifa, ok, a scholar cannot bring a khalifa, the Muslims need to bring one as a community.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why.
Scholars are humans, they can call a person to pray, they can quote hadith and tell the person of the importance, but its not their job to push you physically into praying. Furthermore, there are some reasons that cannot be helped, arrogance is one.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower.
Oh yes, I can see the multitude of Muslims who willingly shave, uncover, sell haram, use interest, and pray only when they can, I can see them moving to Muslim countries and sacrifising a day without food, can you see that? Come on, let alone see those Muslims standing up for justice in the name of Islam.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars. The religious schlars have made their followers do all kinds of destructions in and outside their homelands; but they could not make the Muslims do a single contructive job other than constructing mosques and madrisas for themselves.
I don't know what scholars your on about, knowledge is what we need, brother let me ask you how many Muslim parents here in the Uk make their children memorise Qu'ran? How many parents make their children cover, or even themselves cover properly? How many Muslims in the uk contradict the prophet is simple things like not shaving?

I've seen it, even if we had the plan set out 100% I doubt most muslims here would follow it.
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iqbal_soofi
03-28-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Akhi, who do you want to blame? Scholars have spoken on what we need to do. A person sins it's their fault. True we don't have a Khalifa, ok, a scholar cannot bring a khalifa, the Muslims need to bring one as a community.
That's very right. It's Muslims job to bring a leader for themselves. They'll bring the one who they think is useful to them. They always do the right kind of shopping. They'd buy a horse on which they can ride. They'll not buy a horse which they know they will have to carry on their shoulders.


Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Scholars are humans, they can call a person to pray, they can quote hadith and tell the person of the importance, but its not their job to push you physically into praying. Furthermore, there are some reasons that cannot be helped, arrogance is one.
You're agian right. Nothing can be done about their arrogance. That's why people don't consider religious scholars for their representation.

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Oh yes, I can see the multitude of Muslims who willingly shave, uncover, sell haram, use interest, and pray only when they can, I can see them moving to Muslim countries and sacrifising a day without food, can you see that? Come on, let alone see those Muslims standing up for justice in the name of Islam.
Muslims want justice anyway. It's very hard for them to bring religious scholars to justice. A religious scholars could never be convicted under the Islamic laws even when some are caught red handed in madrisas. They exploit the name of Islam to protect each other in such situations. You'll say that only a few religious scholars are bad and we cannot generalise them. My question is that how many good scholars come forward to bring the bad ones to justice when they're caught? They become silent or passive on such occassions. The same scholars become furiously activist when some innocent young couple is seen dating.

People don't like to make representatives out of the people who have double standards.
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siFilam
03-29-2007, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
You are a little too much sentimental about the religious scholars.
yes I am. They are ones preserving our Deen from the muslim hypocrites and disbelievers. Not to mention they are the inheritors of the Prophets (peace be upon them). It hurts when arrogant fools make offensive comments regarding their intelligence.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Religious scholars may be knowing a lot of Islam these days, rather more than anybody ever knew about it in history. But they hardly know about the political issues and their solutions.
Your problem is that your life will become uncomfortable if the Islamic Scholars lead the Muslims because their solutions for the modern social and political issues will be based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. Not deviated ways based on the desires of the majority.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Do the religious scholars know the capabilites, talents, aspirations and demands of Muslims?
unfortunately majority of Muslims demand the ways of the disbelievers.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
The answer is that the religious scholars don't have any clue of any of these import requirments. Therefore, only some fool will condiser them as a candidate.
The ones u call "fool" are the ones who are not afraid to live according the Shariah.

-SI-
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-29-2007, 04:11 PM
^^:thumbs_up
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noodles
03-29-2007, 04:48 PM
You know, the problem isn't with the scholars.

Think of it this way, there is a classroom full of students and there is a teacher. If the teachers explains various science concepts and only SOME of the students don't understand, you can't very well blame the teacher for not explaining properly, because if the other students understand, then it should be true for all. For the students who don't understand, it is their own fault for not doing homework and studying the pre-class work at home.

Similarly, you can't blame the scholars for not teaching the Muslims, or for not looking at the problems of muslims today. If you must know, most scholars have the knowledge of the problems muslims face in this day and age.

The problem lies with the muslims themselves; the muslims aren't willing to follow the scholars and opt to find a easier route to practice their religion. The scholars CANNOT deviate the religion.

Muslims are told to be steadfast in their prayers, give zakat and be a model for those around them. How many muslims do you see now-a-days who are willing to call for prayer when there are non-muslims around them? They fear becoming an outcast in his circle of friends.

The scholars lay down the foundation rules for us, and what do the muslims do?, muslims do 'pick-and-take' method. They find the easiest rules from each scholar and use it to represent themselves.



As far as politics go, this is an issue not worth getting into. There are the sheikhs who have their pride and honor, then there are other countries and their nationalist attitudes. If the scholars were left todo the political bidding, then you wouldn't see much sectarian issues. (Anyway, thats a topic for another forum)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-29-2007, 04:54 PM
^^Precisely!
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queenmuslimah
03-29-2007, 04:56 PM
i think that the rightous muslims represent muslims............
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doodlebug
03-29-2007, 05:06 PM
I thought Al Ahzar was the head of all muslims.
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جوري
03-29-2007, 05:44 PM
oh pls...sheikh Al-azhar is no better than "Mubarak" as he does his bidding...a good Muslim is the best representative for Muslims... every where you go...you are a walking representative of your Muslims-- so be the best Muslim you can be!
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InToTheRain
03-29-2007, 06:14 PM
Well the Qur'an and Sunnah have always represented the Muslims, I we had a Khilfah it would be the Khalif who would lead us according to Qur'an and Sunnah. But since there isn't a Khilafah it is our scholars that best represent Qur'an and Sunnah hence represent the Muslims.
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iqbal_soofi
03-29-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam


unfortunately majority of Muslims demand the ways of the disbelievers.






-SI-
I heard a religious scholar quoting a hadith that the opinion of two is better than one, opinion of three is better than two, opinion of four is better than three and so on.

In this way the opinion of the majority of Muslims is better than a few (senti)mental Muslims. The opinion of majority of Muslims about the religious scholars is not good. Instead of improving themselves to change the opinion of majority, they call the majority of Muslims as disbelievers. I havn't seen a single Muslim who is a disbeliever of Allah, Quran or Hadith. Themajority of Muslims however doesn't believe blindly in the controversial interpretations made by the religious scholars.

Originally Posted by siFilam
The ones u call "fool" are the ones who are not afraid to live according the Shariah.
These fools are not really fools in their practical life. They only talk like fools. They claim that they're not afraid to live according to Sharia. Practically, they are the ones who oppose to try them under Sharia when some of their favorite religious scholas are caught red handed.

They want to impose Sharia only on others, not on themselves. If they really want to live according toSharia, then who is stopping them. Collectively, they've plenty of resources and funds with which they can easily buy thousands of acres of lands in deserts or barren lands similar to the ones surrounding Mecca in any country. They can set up an islamic society and make anyone their favorite religious scholars as their representative and then live according to Sharia. Many other Muslims will join them if they really form a successful society there. So give it a try for yourself instead of proposing to others. I am sure you'll not do it because you really don't want to live according to Sharia. I can bet my life on it.
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siFilam
03-29-2007, 11:26 PM
iqbal_soofi,
I honestly don't know why I keep answering you. Your arrogant ideas will not leave your head. But in honor and respect of our Scholars (may Allah have mercy on them), I, the sentimental Muslim, will continue to reply in hope that Allah will guide you and keep others from being misguided by your comments.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
I heard a religious scholar quoting a hadith that the opinion of two is better than one, opinion of three is better than two, opinion of four is better than three and so on.

In this way the opinion of the majority of Muslims is better than a few (senti)mental Muslims. The opinion of majority of Muslims about the religious scholars is not good. Instead of improving themselves to change the opinion of majority, they call the majority of Muslims as disbelievers. I havn't seen a single Muslim who is a disbeliever of Allah, Quran or Hadith. Themajority of Muslims however doesn't believe blindly in the controversial interpretations made by the religious scholars.
I also heard a similar Hadith. But you can't just use Hadith in attempt to prove your fallacious argument. Lets say you lived in a pagan society like the Hindu. Now the majority of the people around you worship idol, would this Hadtih apply here. What if you lived in the US in the 1950s and 1960s when racism and racist actions were permissible in society, can you still apply the same Hadith. My point is you have do practice Islam according to the Shariah regardless of what the majority may think or do. Alhamdulilah that our respected Scholars are against the majority. Why? Because majority of the Muslims lack proper knowledge of Islam and they are satisfied with their ignorance. They follow their desires which leads them to follow the footsteps of Christian, Jews and polytheists. If our Scholars try to satisfy the majority they will be misguided. they would fall into the deceptions of Shaytan as the majority did. It would be a grave error.
May Allah keep our Scholars firmly on His Religion. Ameen.
We are getting close to the Day of Judgment and these are some of the signs.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
These fools are not really fools in their practical life. They only talk like fools. They claim that they're not afraid to live according to Sharia. Practically, they are the ones who oppose to try them under Sharia when some of their favorite religious scholas are caught red handed.

They want to impose Sharia only on others, not on themselves. If they really want to live according to Sharia, then who is stopping them. Collectively, they've plenty of resources and funds with which they can easily buy thousands of acres of lands in deserts or barren lands similar to the ones surrounding Mecca in any country. They can set up an islamic society and make anyone their favorite religious scholars as their representative and then live according to Sharia. Many other Muslims will join them if they really form a successful society there. So give it a try for yourself instead of proposing to others. I am sure you'll not do it because you really don't want to live according to Sharia. I can bet my life on it.
You lack knowledge of the Shari'ah so I will not bother arguing with you about how to apply the Shariah. I fear I may say something wrong. May Allah forgive me. and you too, may Allah forgive you too. :exhausted
But I'll say this, our respected Scholars already live their life according to the Shari'ah. Their life is based on the revelations from Allah and the Sunnah of our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him). The only thing missing is that there is no collective state to impose Shari’ah. People like you along with the disbelievers are stopping them from building such states.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
I am sure you'll not do it because you really don't want to live according to Sharia. I can bet my life on it.
And don't rush to bet your life on it. May Allah give me and other Muslims the ability to obey Him, to submit to Him as His Messenger (saw) did. Ameen.

May Allah, The Most Exalted, honor His Scholars, have mercy on them, increase their number and humiliate those who continuously disrespect them.
AAAAAAAAMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEENNN!

-SI-
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-29-2007, 11:31 PM
^^Ameen Ameen!!!!!!!! Dont bet your life on it bro. Cuz u just lost already!!!
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-30-2007, 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by siFilam
iqbal_soofi,
The only thing missing is that there is no collective state to impose Shari’ah. People like you along with the disbelievers are stopping them from building such states.

Why is that thing missing. How many Muslims in the world want to live according to Sharia? If they're more than 100 thousand then don't you think that number is too small to start an independent state by buying a seperate peiece of land somewhere in the deserts or even in Saudi Arabia to make a state of their dreams? The fact is otherwise. They want to impose sharia only on others and not on themselves. Have you heard a single case in which sharia laws were impemented on a relgious scholar when a lot of them are caught on regular basis in cheap crimes that are punishable under the hudood laws.
Reply

noodles
03-30-2007, 04:19 AM
Once again you target the radicals here and are generalizing by saying that all scholars commit 'cheap crimes'. You don't hear about the muslims scholars on the Media because the media wants to feed what is interesting to you. If some scholars seek attention then they receive it. Just don't be selfish as to think that all scholars commit those same crimes.

As far as shariah goes, there is nothing wrong with it. It's the sectarian issues that you need to worry about. (thats for another day)

A hadith mentions, there will be 73 sects in Islam before the end of times. It is unaviodable.


May Allah SWT forgive me if I've said anything wrong.
Reply

i_m_tipu
03-30-2007, 04:39 AM
Re: Who represents Muslims?

Those who submit their will into Allah (SWT)[All mighty God] represent Allah (SWT).
Those who represent Allah (SWT) represent Islam.
Those who represent Islam represent Muslim.

They have nothing to gain except the pleasure of Allah (SWT).
Reply

atha
03-30-2007, 05:02 AM
Assalam-u-alaikum

Did you notice how divided you all sounded??

kind regards
assalam-u-alaikum
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-30-2007, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by noodles
Once again you target the radicals here and are generalizing by saying that all scholars commit 'cheap crimes'. You don't hear about the muslims scholars on the Media because the media wants to feed what is interesting to you. If some scholars seek attention then they receive it. Just don't be selfish as to think that all scholars commit those same crimes.
First of all, let me make it clear to you that I never blamed all the religious scholars for cheap crimes. Most of them look very pious and religious from outside. I don't how they're from inside. Therefore I don't blame them. I only blame those who are caught red handed for the cheap crimes. The crime of the pious looking religious scholars is that they remain silent or passive when they hear about the cheap crimes of their coleagues. Otherwise the same pious looking religious scholars make a hell out of the things when they hear about a similar crime committed by an ordinary person.

Originally Posted by noodles
As far as shariah goes, there is nothing wrong with it. It's the sectarian issues that you need to worry about. (thats for another day)




May Allah SWT forgive me if I've said anything wrong.
Of course there's nothing wrong with the sharia. The only thing is that you and your favorite religious scholars don't want to apply it on yourselves. Have you or any of your favorite religious scholar ever demanded to apply sharia on any religious scholar when caught red handed?

I've already challenged you that you'd never like to live a life 100% according to sharia. Try it for a few months. You can continue it for the rest of your life if you think it's the best way of living. Who is stopping you?


Originally Posted by noodles
A hadith mentions, there will be 73 sects in Islam before the end of times. It is unaviodable.
What dou want to prove? Why it is unavoidable? You mean to say that there's no solution to secterianism in Islam? On one hand you claim that Islam has solution to every problem of the world and on the other you tell us that Islam has no solution to the problems created by religious scholars.

When you know that it's the religious scholars who created and promoted the sectarian problems and it's them who don't let us resolve these problems. You also know that they never solved any real problem for Muslims in history, then how do you even think of making them the representatives. You may make these dividers of Muslims as your representaives, but the majority of Muslims is not foolish.
Reply

siFilam
03-30-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Why is that thing missing. How many Muslims in the world want to live according to Sharia? If they're more than 100 thousand then don't you think that number is too small to start an independent state by buying a seperate peiece of land somewhere in the deserts or even in Saudi Arabia to make a state of their dreams? The fact is otherwise. They want to impose sharia only on others and not on themselves. Have you heard a single case in which sharia laws were impemented on a relgious scholar when a lot of them are caught on regular basis in cheap crimes that are punishable under the hudood laws.
Do u honestly think that the Saudi government would allow such thing to happen. You're right, not too many Muslims would be willing to live according to the Shariah. Why? This is not due to the faults of the Scholars (may Allah have mercy on them and raise their status Ameen). Yes, they are human being just like us but they are favored by Allah, The Most Exlated because in a Hadith it was said that when Allah wants to favor someone He grants them knowledge of Deen. The fact is the majority of the Muslims today are weak when it comes to practicing Islam. (May Allah forgive us Ameen.) Shariah would demand life according to Allah's ways not according to the desires of the majority of Muslims. That is why unfortunately too many Muslims oppose Shariah law in their own country. I’ve already told you that the respected Scholars who fear Allah live their life according to Shariah. They prefer Allah’s pleasure above their own comfort. Also, I’ve already stated that I will not argue with you about how to apply the Shariah because I lack knowledge regarding such topics. And you should do the same. Fear Allah and don’t speak out of your desire.

-SI-
Reply

siFilam
03-30-2007, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
First of all, let me make it clear to you that I never blamed all the religious scholars for cheap crimes. Most of them look very pious and religious from outside. I don't how they're from inside. Therefore I don't blame them. I only blame those who are caught red handed for the cheap crimes. The crime of the pious looking religious scholars is that they remain silent or passive when they hear about the cheap crimes of their coleagues. Otherwise the same pious looking religious scholars make a hell out of the things when they hear about a similar crime committed by an ordinary person.
You contradict yourself too much...from the very beginning of our discussion you inaccurately generalized against all the scholars and blamed them for their lack of knowledge. :astagfiru May Allah forgive you


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Of course there's nothing wrong with the sharia. The only thing is that you and your favorite religious scholars don't want to apply it on yourselves. Have you or any of your favorite religious scholar ever demanded to apply sharia on any religious scholar when caught red handed?

I've already challenged you that you'd never like to live a life 100% according to sharia. Try it for a few months. You can continue it for the rest of your life if you think it's the best way of living. Who is stopping you?
u keep repeating this question. and I've lost count of how many time I asnwered you. I'll say it again: people like you and hypocrite among the mulsims along with the disbelievers are stopping us.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
What dou want to prove? Why it is unavoidable? You mean to say that there's no solution to secterianism in Islam? On one hand you claim that Islam has solution to every problem of the world and on the other you tell us that Islam has no solution to the problems created by religious scholars.

When you know that it's the religious scholars who created and promoted the sectarian problems and it's them who don't let us resolve these problems. You also know that they never solved any real problem for Muslims in history, then how do you even think of making them the representatives. You may make these dividers of Muslims as your representaives, but the majority of Muslims is not foolish.
Islam is perfect and it does have all the solutions. The problem is that the weak Muslims and hypocrites won't seek an Islamic solution. And if they are aware of the Islamic solution they don't apply it. Religious scholars didn't create sectarian problems. The ignorant who follow their evil desires creates such problems.

-SI-
Reply

SirZubair
03-30-2007, 08:57 PM
I represent myself.
Reply

SirZubair
03-30-2007, 09:02 PM
Speaking of the Shariah Laws...

... It cannot be applied until a khalifa has been established.

And in this time and age, there is no chance of a Khalifa being established. If you think there is a chance,... all i am going to say is 'open your eyes, take a look around'. Inorder for a khalifa to be established, muslims need to unite.

Muslim Unity?

There is no such thing.

So,... as lovely as it would be to live under Shariah laws,... its a dream which will remain nothing more than a dream during my lifetime.

So i am sticking to representing myself. I will go as far as to say that my teacher ( Afroz Ali ) represents me, but thats as far as i go.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-30-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
You contradict yourself too much...from the very beginning of our discussion you inaccurately generalized against all the scholars and blamed them for their lack of knowledge. :astagfiru May Allah forgive you
Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it. However, I've time and again said that they've a plenty of knowledge about Islam, rather more than anybody knew about Islam in history.

Allah may or may not forgive me but I'm sure He'll never forgive the liars like you and your so called scholars who put their own words into others mouths.


Originally Posted by siFilam

u keep repeating this question. and I've lost count of how many time I asnwered you. I'll say it again: people like you and hypocrite among the mulsims along with the disbelievers are stopping us.
This is another lie. When did I stop you? I only stop you and other fanatics not to force your opinion on others. You're free to do whatever you want to do with your own life, but you're not allowed to play with other people's lives. All sensible people will stop you. You call them as hypocrites.

You put the blame on others only because you yourself don't want to follow sharia for yourself. You only wish to see others following it. When others tell you the genuine reasons for their inability to follow an outdated law which nobody had ever followed, then you call them disbelievers.

Originally Posted by siFilam
Islam is perfect and it does have all the solutions. The problem is that the weak Muslims and hypocrites won't seek an Islamic solution. And if they are aware of the Islamic solution they don't apply it. Religious scholars didn't create sectarian problems. The ignorant who follow their evil desires creates such problems.
Yes I know Islam is perfect and have all the solutions. You don't need to tell me that. Religious scholars must be knowing that too. They're not just the religious scholars, but they're your representatives and leaders. So why don't you ask them to apply their knowledge of Islam and solve this problem. As far as I can understand, this problem of secterianism is not established or supported by less knowledgable people like myself. There're are very highly learned and powerful religious scholars behind as well as in the forefront of every sect. There may be a solution to every problem in Islam, but man, I tell you there's no solution for these people.
Reply

SirZubair
03-30-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it.
Not true.

Do a google search on scholars named :

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf ( Zaytuna institute ) ( Teacher and good friend of Afroz Ali )



Imam Zaid Shakir ( Zaytuna institute )



Afroz Ali ( Al Ghazzali Centre ) ( My teacher and good friend )



Shaykh Nuh Keller ( Masud )

[ No Pic's Available ]

Times are changing.

Not all the scholars out there have welcomed the 21st century into their lives as they should have done, but like i said, times are changing.. slowly.

These men,... ONE of them can out do you in your knowledge of the 'real world' over and over and over.
Reply

noodles
03-31-2007, 02:13 AM
Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it. However, I've time and again said that they've a plenty of knowledge about Islam, rather more than anybody knew about Islam in history.
Just so you know, Islam is a Way of Life. Scholars studied the lives of the prophet and his companions you can be sure of that. So much intense study has been done on the companions such that there have been volumes written by many authors on them.

You keep saying they have no "real world" knowledge, however, if you go to these volumes and pour over them looking for your specific problem, you're surely to find it. In 98-99% cases there are apprehendable solutions to your problems. However, when the majority of the muslims population is ignorant of all these books, who is to blame? Surely not the scholars, as they have already presented the population with the solution.

I've said this before and I'll say this again, many Muslims try to find an alternate solution just because the solution present to them is not liked.

Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why. Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower. Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars.
You posted earlier on and I thought I should reply to this.

Of course I want to put the blame on muslims, as for scholars knowing why the Muslims arent following them, its obvious as I've stated earlier on, its because they opt to find easier and questionable routes to solve their problems.

You keep asking the same questions. Stand back and look at the issue from a broader perspective.
Reply

Darkseid
03-31-2007, 04:21 AM
If it counts for anything you do have a muslim in the United States House of Representatives.
Reply

siFilam
03-31-2007, 05:09 AM
:salamext:
Originally Posted by Darkseid
If it counts for anything you do have a muslim in the United States House of Representatives.
yeah but he is very liberal. for example he supports gay marriage. This is not Islamic.

wasalam
-SI-
Reply

iqbal_soofi
03-31-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by noodles
Just so you know, Islam is a Way of Life. Scholars studied the lives of the prophet and his companions you can be sure of that. So much intense study has been done on the companions such that there have been volumes written by many authors on them.

You keep saying they have no "real world" knowledge, however, if you go to these volumes and pour over them looking for your specific problem, you're surely to find it. In 98-99% cases there are apprehendable solutions to your problems. However, when the majority of the muslims population is ignorant of all these books, who is to blame? Surely not the scholars, as they have already presented the population with the solution.

I've said this before and I'll say this again, many Muslims try to find an alternate solution just because the solution present to them is not liked.



You posted earlier on and I thought I should reply to this.

Of course I want to put the blame on muslims, as for scholars knowing why the Muslims arent following them, its obvious as I've stated earlier on, its because they opt to find easier and questionable routes to solve their problems.

You keep asking the same questions. Stand back and look at the issue from a broader perspective.

You made two contradictory statements in just one post.

First you said that Islam is a way of life. Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully. Then you said that Muslims don't want to follow the religious scholars because they opt find easeir routes to solve their problems.

Now if they could find their solutions easily if Islam then why they look to other routes? Because those are easier than Islam. Is that what you said?

Now pay some attention to your two comments and think over it for some time. You'll then yourself know why Muslims don't make these religious scholars as their representatives.

You're totally confused and standing on the brink of a dark well thinking all of the your problems would be solved for ever at once if all of the Muslims jump into this well because there's solution for every problem in this dark well.

Why don't you and your religious scholars jump into it and solve your problems at least. Why are you spending money and time on the websites and other propaganda techniques to push innocent Muslims into this well by force. You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.
Reply

SirZubair
03-31-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.
Yeah,... seems like the minority found its way to the internet.
Reply

noodles
03-31-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
You made two contradictory statements in just one post.

First you said that Islam is a way of life. Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully. Then you said that Muslims don't want to follow the religious scholars because they opt find easeir routes to solve their problems.

Now if they could find their solutions easily if Islam then why they look to other routes? Because those are easier than Islam. Is that what you said?

Now pay some attention to your two comments and think over it for some time. You'll then yourself know why Muslims don't make these religious scholars as their representatives.
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem- I hope Allah grants me patience because clearly I'm running out.

Let me just clarify something. When you state "Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully" that is incorrect.

Every religion has its own kind of practice. Moreover, many participants of that religion will find it difficult to adhere to its guidelines fully. (ie, Sikhism demands you to be in constant remembrance of their gurus, likewise, christianity demands its participants to visit the church every sunday among other things) Islam likely demands many things from its participants. If the simple commands of Allah are not undergone, then how do you expect the bigger commands to take place? Yes, it's the necessity of EVERY muslim to follow the given set of rules. However, muslims now-a-days try to weasel out of the most simplests tasks by making petty excuses and finding alternate rules to accomplish it. (I admit, I try not to. But it happens)

Yes, its easy to not wear the Hijab, but are you suggesting the scholars Fatwa it and make it unnecessary just because it doesn't sit will with present day muslims? Scholars know their obligations and that is to spread the word of islam and help the muslims with their problems. If the muslims aren't paying heed, then it is their own fault.

You're totally confused and standing on the brink of a dark well thinking all of the your problems would be solved for ever at once if all of the Muslims jump into this well because there's solution for every problem in this dark well.

Why don't you and your religious scholars jump into it and solve your problems at least. Why are you spending money and time on the websites and other propaganda techniques to push innocent Muslims into this well by force. You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.
I never said the Hadeeth and the Qur'an has a solution to every complication that a muslims faces. I did say that most of problems found today are there present in those volumes.



Here it has been repeated about 10 times now in this same thread. Here is an example from the previous page, that you didn't understand properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

Akhi, who do you want to blame? Scholars have spoken on what we need to do. A person sins it's their fault. True we don't have a Khalifa, ok, a scholar cannot bring a khalifa, the Muslims need to bring one as a community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why.
Scholars are humans, they can call a person to pray, they can quote hadith and tell the person of the importance, but its not their job to push you physically into praying. Furthermore, there are some reasons that cannot be helped, arrogance is one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower.
Oh yes, I can see the multitude of Muslims who willingly shave, uncover, sell haram, use interest, and pray only when they can, I can see them moving to Muslim countries and sacrifising a day without food, can you see that? Come on, let alone see those Muslims standing up for justice in the name of Islam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars. The religious schlars have made their followers do all kinds of destructions in and outside their homelands; but they could not make the Muslims do a single contructive job other than constructing mosques and madrisas for themselves.
I don't know what scholars your on about, knowledge is what we need, brother let me ask you how many Muslim parents here in the Uk make their children memorise Qu'ran? How many parents make their children cover, or even themselves cover properly? How many Muslims in the uk contradict the prophet is simple things like not shaving?

I've seen it, even if we had the plan set out 100% I doubt most muslims here would follow it.
Reply

siFilam
04-01-2007, 03:48 AM
:salamext:
Brother Noodles,
It’s no use arguing with Iqbal_soofi. Some people seek guidance and a chance to examine their own views through discussions. This is not the case here. So I figured its best not to answer him and argue for the sake of arguing. This is useless.
wasalam
-SI-
Reply

Talha777
04-01-2007, 03:55 AM
A common myth people have about Islam is that there is no "church" or organized leadership. That may be the contemporary situation, but it is not the ideal one. After the death of our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am), Allah Taala gave us the khilafat as our spiritual and political guidance. Khilafat is a guiding light. Now we need to work to restore this institution with the Help of Allah, which will come once we have united sincerely ourselves in this virtuous cause. The Muslims should be an organized Jama'at (Congregation/Church), with organized and effective leadership, just like in the days of Rasoolullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) and his companions. Sooner we are organized and have the institution of khilafat the sooner we will be able to propogate our religion more effectively and facilitate taqwa among the masses. Our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) forbade that even three people should venture on a journey without one being appointed an ameer over the other.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-02-2007, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by siFilam
:salamext:
Brother Noodles,
It’s no use arguing with Iqbal_soofi. Some people seek guidance and a chance to examine their own views through discussions. This is not the case here. So I figured its best not to answer him and argue for the sake of arguing. This is useless.
wasalam
-SI-
For me a right is right even if it's done by a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and a wrong is wrong even if it's done by a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Therefore, the fanatics cannot convince me otherwise with stupid kind of illogical arguments.

The fans of religious scholars have double standards. They've a different standard for the common people and a different one for the religious scholars. They wish to apply the sharia only on the common people but not on the religious scholars. They blindly believe that the religious scholaras are angels who always live their lives according to the Sharia. They close their eyes when any of the religious scholars is caught red handed. If somebody wants to try a religious scholar for a crime, they create a lot of nuaisance and start shouting that Islam is in danger. They're actually mentaly sick people. They fail to understand the simeple reason why majority of Muslims don't like the relgious scholars.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-02-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
A common myth people have about Islam is that there is no "church" or organized leadership. That may be the contemporary situation, but it is not the ideal one. After the death of our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am), Allah Taala gave us the khilafat as our spiritual and political guidance. Khilafat is a guiding light. Now we need to work to restore this institution with the Help of Allah, which will come once we have united sincerely ourselves in this virtuous cause. The Muslims should be an organized Jama'at (Congregation/Church), with organized and effective leadership, just like in the days of Rasoolullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) and his companions. Sooner we are organized and have the institution of khilafat the sooner we will be able to propogate our religion more effectively and facilitate taqwa among the masses. Our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) forbade that even three people should venture on a journey without one being appointed an ameer over the other.


Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks. It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.
Reply

Talha777
04-03-2007, 12:16 PM
Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks. It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.
Khilafat is a divinely established institution, and insha Allah it will work for all times until Day of Judgment. First of all, khilafat is primarily a spiritual leadership, and khilafat can exist without a government or Islamic state. Muslims can still take bayath to the Khalifa without him being in charge of a government. It is more ideal, however, that all the Muslim majority states are united under the federal government of a Khalifa. In that case, political governance will require departments and councils, which did exist during the time of khulafa rashideen (Razi Allah Taala Anhum).
Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-03-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Khilafat is a divinely established institution, and insha Allah it will work for all times until Day of Judgment. First of all, khilafat is primarily a spiritual leadership, and khilafat can exist without a government or Islamic state. Muslims can still take bayath to the Khalifa without him being in charge of a government. It is more ideal, however, that all the Muslim majority states are united under the federal government of a Khalifa. In that case, political governance will require departments and councils, which did exist during the time of khulafa rashideen (Razi Allah Taala Anhum).
You don't know what you're talking. Totally confused and lost in idealism. The religious scholars who teach spirtualism to you could be the representatives of the confused and misguided people like yourself. But majority of Muslims is still sensible and wise. They don't like the relgious scholars or spirtual thugs to represent them.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-03-2007, 05:33 PM
What are you talking about? Islam is spiritual and intellectual.
Reply

siFilam
04-03-2007, 06:41 PM
:salamext:
I had made up my mind before not to answer you. But I couldn't resist. Your ignorance is very misleading and alluring to Muslims with little knowledge of Islam. I'm not implying that I am very smart and knowledgeable about Islam but Alhamdulilah that Allah gave me ability to understand and accept the Shair'ah as the only way to live.

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks.
In Surah Al-Maeda Allah said that He completed and perfected this religion. This means that the Shari'ah is compatible with every single human society until the Day of Judgment. There is no exception and it doesn’t make any difference whether the lifestyle is simple or complex. He perfected it for the human race until Resurrection.
You said “small societies”, u think the companions of Prophet (peace of upon him) ruled small societies. They controlled vast empires with people of different culture and society. But they all came under one Way of Life, Islam.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.
No, modern religious scholars do not have more knowledge of Islam compared to the four rightly guided Khalifah (may Allah be pleased with them) and the other Companions (may Allah be pleased with them).
Your problem is that you place more value on mundane knowledge than religious knowledge. And your view on religion is very narrow. You restrict it only to spiritual concerns when Islam is literally “A WAY OF LIFE”. It’s a way to execute every action necessary for our survival whether it’s political, social or economic issue. So don’t u think a religious scholar, the expert in Islam, would be able to carry out duties regarding the “modern departments of life”.

wasalam
-SI-
Reply

siFilam
04-03-2007, 06:45 PM
:salamext:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
You don't know what you're talking. Totally confused and lost in idealism. The religious scholars who teach spirtualism to you could be the representatives of the confused and misguided people like yourself.
May Allah forgive you for speaking out your desire and ignorance. Ameen.


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
But majority of Muslims is still sensible and wise. They don't like the relgious scholars or spirtual thugs to represent them.
can u give me an example of your majority, like is there any particular organization or group who represent the majority you always refer to.

wasalam
-SI-
Reply

aamirsaab
04-03-2007, 07:00 PM
:sl:
Every man and woman is responsible for representing themselves. Certain members of society however like to have a representative because it removes the weight off their shoulders by reducing responsibility.

There is no single individual who represents muslims and nor should there be.
Reply

noodles
04-03-2007, 07:03 PM
But majority of Muslims is still sensible and wise. They don't like the relgious scholars or spirtual thugs to represent them.
I wonder why you are voicing your opinion as 'majority'. From you're advice and the number of opposition you are receiving here, you neither represent a 'majority' nor are even in a position to represent a minority. Therefore, if you fully do not understand the religion, you have no right to say which scholars are rogues or thugs.

Once again I'm clearly sorry if I sound very rude, but you keep bringing up the same points.
Reply

siFilam
04-03-2007, 07:12 PM
:wasalamex
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Every man and woman is responsible for representing themselves. Certain members of society however like to have a representative because it removes the weight off their shoulders by reducing responsibility.
I disagree. A representative doesn’t eliminate personal responsibilities. To have a collective unity you need a representative. It doesn't reduce anyone's responsibility. It simply places the greater responsibility of establishing a true society on the shoulders of righteous individuals.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
There is no single individual who represents muslims and nor should there be.
In these days we may not have a single individual representative, but we did have in the past and we will in the future when Imam Mehdi appears. There is wisdom behind having an individual representative. Every nation was sent a Prophet (peace be upon them) to lead them, to guide them and to organize their society and to perform many other duties. There won't be any more Prophet (peace be upon them) but as Muslims we have to follow our last Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to establish a representative according to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

And Allah knows best.

Wasalam
-SI-
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Woodrow
04-03-2007, 07:18 PM
To squabble among ourselves makes as much sense trying to decide which pebble is the beach. Just like no 2 pebbles on the beach are the same, and no one pebbles represents all of the pebbles, so it is with us.

Many pebbles, each different, but together forming one beach. many muslims each different but together forming one Ummah. It is only when one of us claims to speak for all of the ummah, does the ummah forget to stay together.
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