/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Ghosts Of Abu Gharib-yet Another Cover Up Story



atha
03-28-2007, 05:42 PM
Assalam-u-Alaikum

Check this article and the "sworn testimony" of Sgt. Provonce with regards to the torture in Abu Gharib. Its interesting how the officials have changed their position from "America does not torture" to "Torture works". Just a bunch of hypocrites.


First check out Sgt. Provonce's "sworn testimony"

http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06214...ce-statment.pdf

The American Ghosts of Abu Ghraib

By Sam Provance

Editor’s Note: Former Army Sgt. Sam Provance was one of the heroes of the Abu Ghraib scandal, the only uniformed military intelligence officer at the Iraqi prison to testify about the abuses during the internal Army investigation. When he recognized that the Pentagon was scapegoating low-level personnel, he also gave an interview to ABC News.

For refusing to play along with the cover-up, Provance was punished and pushed out of the U.S. military. The Pentagon went forward with its plan to pin the blame for the sadistic treatment of Iraqi detainees on a handful of poorly trained MPs, not on the higher-ups who brought the lessons of “alternative interrogation techniques” from the Guatanamo Bay prison to Abu Ghraib.

The Congress, which was then controlled by the Republicans, promised a fuller investigation. Provance submitted a sworn statement. But Congress never followed through, leaving Provance hanging out to dry. Then, in February 2007, he went to a special screening of the documentary, “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib,” and learned more than he expected about why the scandal died:

03/27/07 "Consortium News" For those of you who have not heard of me, I am Sam Provance. My career as an Army sergeant came to a premature end at age 32 after eight years of decorated service, because I refused to remain silent about Abu Ghraib, where I served for five months in 2004 at the height of the abuses.
A noncommissioned officer specializing in intelligence analysis, my job at Abu Ghraib was systems administrator (“the computer guy”). But I had the misfortune of being on the night shift, saw detainees dragged in for interrogation, heard the screams, and saw many of them dragged out. I was sent back to my parent unit in Germany shortly after the Army began the first of its many self-investigations.

In Germany, I had the surreal experience of being interrogated by one of the Army-General-Grand-Inquisitors, Major General George Fay, who showed himself singularly uninterested in what went on at Abu Ghraib.

I had to insist that he listen to my eyewitness account, whereupon he threatened punitive actions against me for not coming forward sooner and even tried to hold me personally responsible for the scandal itself.

The Army then demoted me, suspended my Top Secret clearance, and threatened me with ten years in a military prison if I asked for a court martial. I was even given a gag order, the only one I know to have been issued to those whom Gen. Fay interviewed.

But the fact that most Americans know nothing of what I saw at Abu Ghraib, and that my career became collateral damage, so to speak, has nothing to do with the gag order, which turned out to be the straw that broke this sergeant’s back.

After seeing first-hand that the investigation wasn't going to go anywhere and that no one else I knew from the intelligence community was being candid, I allowed myself to be interviewed by American and German journalists. Sadly, you would have had to know German to learn the details of what I had to say at that time about the abuses at Abu Ghraib.

Later, Republican Congressman Christopher Shays, who was then chair of the House Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats, and International Relations, invited me to testify on Feb. 14, 2006, so my sworn testimony is on the public record. [See: http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf...-statment.pdf]

On June 30, 2006, dissatisfied with the Pentagon’s non-responsiveness to requests for information on my situation, the Committee on Government Reform issued a subpoena requiring then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to produce the requested documents by July 14. I heard nothing further. I guess he forgot. I guess Congress forgot, too.

Thanks largely to a keen sense of justice and a good dose of courage on the part of pro bono lawyers and congressional aides, I made it through the next two and a half years of professional limbo, applying my computer skills to picking up trash and performing guard duty. Instead of a prison sentence, I was honorably discharged on Oct. 13, 2006 and began my still-continuing search for a place back in the civilian world.

Producers for Rory Kennedy’s documentary “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib” were among the journalists who interviewed me—discreetly—in Germany. On Feb. 12, 2007 I attended a screening of that documentary. What happened there bears telling.

Surreal Event

Walking into the fancy government building to see the documentary proved to be a bizarre experience. Hardly in the door, I saw a one of the guests shaking his head, saying in some wonderment, “The young woman at the front desk greeted me with a cheerful smile; Abu Ghraib? she said. Right this way, please.”

The atmosphere did seem more appropriate for an art show than a documentary on torture. People were dressed to the nines, heartily laughing, and servers with white gloves were walking about with wine and hors d’oeuvres.

I managed to find one other person who was also in the film, former Gen. Janis Karpinski, with whom I shared the distinction of having been reduced in rank because we refused to “go along to get along.”

I had wanted to talk to her ever since the abuses at Abu Ghraib came to light. We’ve been on the same page from the beginning. She seemed happy to meet me as well, but so many others wanted her attention that serious conversation was difficult.

Everyone shuffled into the theater and Gen. Karpinski’s and my presence there was announced briefly during the introductions. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the showing was to be followed by a discussion led by Sen. Edward Kennedy (who was there from the start) and Sen. Lindsey Graham (who arrived only after the introductions).

It was largely because of the interest that Sen. Kennedy took in the Army’s retaliation against me that I escaped the Army’s full wrath for truth telling. And Sen. Graham initially had approached me when he heard of my situation, not even realizing at the time that I was from South Carolina. So I was looking forward to what I expected would be an unusual bipartisan challenge to the practice of torture.

Flashback

When the lights dimmed and the documentary started, I began to be affected more emotionally than I had expected.

It was the words of the other soldiers that touched me most deeply, because I could relate to them; I knew those soldiers on one level or another. I got worried I might not make it through the screening, that I would break down right there.

Ironically, it was my anger at their plight that kept me composed. Everything in the film was all too familiar to me. The soldiers explaining they were just following the orders of their supervisors; the higher-ups vigorously shifting blame from themselves onto soldiers of lesser rank—the whole nine yards.

And to see those Iraqi faces again—the broken hearts and ruined lives of innocent Iraqi citizens detained, abused, tortured. And the systematic cover-up, with the Army investigating itself over and over again, giving the appearance of a “thorough” investigation.

After the film, Senators Kennedy and Graham took seats on the stage to begin their discussion. I was shocked to see it descend into heated debate.

Sen. Graham began saying things that I couldn’t believe I was hearing. He made a complete 180-degree turn on the issue of torture from when I had spoken to him on the phone not long after the Abu Ghraib scandal was exposed.

Now he was portraying Abu Ghraib as a place where only a handful of soldiers resided (you’ve heard of them, the so-called “rotten apples).” I felt betrayed.

Worse still, the only officer Graham saw fit to criticize (he assumed in absentia) was Gen. Karpinski. And he laid it on thick, asserting forcefully that she should have been court-martialed because she was the reason things went awry.

The senator argued that Karpinski (who was responsible for overseeing 17 prisons with military police, most of whom had not been trained in detention operations) should have driven from her headquarters to Abu Ghraib for random middle-of-the-night checks. He then saw fit to contrast her behavior with what Graham described the due diligence he exercised nightly as an Army lawyer in checking the “dormitory.” (sic)

...and sick. Anyone who knows much about Abu Ghraib knows that all kinds of Army brass lived and worked there, and that it was host to visits by former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, his deputy Paul Wolfowitz, U.S. pro-consul Paul Bremer, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, Gen. Geoffrey Miller (in charge of “Gitmo-izing Abu Ghraib), Gen. Barbara Fast, and even National Security Council functionary Frances Townsend.

They were all there. I don’t know how many, if any, saw fit to check the “dormitory.”

Torture Works?

During the discussion/debate, Sen. Graham seemed to be speaking in support of virtually everything that we opposed – and that had been exposed in the documentary – throwing all reason out the window. He dropped a bombshell when he began defending the practice of torture itself, using the torture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as an example. He cited the “good stuff” gleaned from treating him that way, as if to say, “it works!”

This raised again the question in my mind about just what kind of person professionally tortures somebody, and what kind of mentality would approve of it? (I found myself almost wishing such people could hear the screams—almost, because I would not wish that on my worst enemy.)

The obvious answer is: Sadists. Which is what the administration called the military police in the infamous photographs. And what was seen in them was small stuff compared to what else happened—and continued to happen even after the abuses at Abu Ghraib were exposed.

Benjamin Thompson, a former U.S. Army specialist at Abu Ghraib, has told Reuters that exposure of the scandal “basically diverted everyone’s attention away from anything that was not in the photographs... as long as we didn’t stack people and make pyramids, we were doing a great job.”

This reminds me of my wonderment at President George W. Bush’s public advocacy last fall of the “alternative” interrogation procedures in what clearly is one of his favorite CIA programs. Perhaps better than others I can imagine what has been tucked under the rubric of “alternative” techniques, the alleged success of which the President has advertised and has been picked up in the captive corporate media.

At one point Sen. Graham asked the audience who among us considered Army specialist Joe Darby a hero. Darby was the one who initially gave the Abu Ghraib photos to Army investigators. Pausing just a few seconds, Graham used the momentary silence as a cue to continue talking about how the American people really don’t care about torture.

For me, the worst part is that I have found this to be generally true. It is more convenient for people not to care. By and large, they are far more prepared to accept official explanations than to take the trouble to find out what is really going on. For, if they found out, their consciences might require them to do something about it.

Sen. Graham’s demeanor was downright eerie in the way he chose to relate to the crowd…beaming with a kind of delight and mocking the outrage that he must have seen building.

This reminded me of my experience in Iraq, where I would hear soldiers discussing their abuse of detainees. It was always cast as a humorous thing, and each recounting won the expected—sometimes forced—laugh.

But now I am in Washington, I thought. Has everyone been bitten by the torture bug? I was sickened to watch a senior senator and lawyer flippantly dismiss what happened at Abu Ghraib, and act as though he knew more about the abuses than the people, like me, who were there.

Sadly, Graham is not the first elected official who has become part of the problem rather than the solution.

Audience Unrest

Unrest was spreading in the audience to the point where some were threatened with ejection. People were yelling at Sen. Graham from all over the theater and for a moment I thought a riot might ensue.

But Sen. Kennedy’s response pierced the darkness with the white-hot light of truth. Clearly, he was just as uncomfortable as most of the rest of us at what we had just witnessed, and he spoke in a straightforward way against what is just plain wrong.

For me, his comments came in the nick of time. I was beginning to feel not only betrayed, but a little crazy. Was this really happening? Later, I was happy to be able to shake Sen. Kennedy’s hand as he left the theater.

At the end, producer Rory Kennedy brought a portable microphone to Gen. Karpinski where she sat in the audience and, directing her attention back to the stage, explained to Sen. Graham that Karpinski was present and that it seemed only fair to give her a chance to comment on his remarks about her.

She rose and, in quiet but no uncertain terms, accused Graham and the general officers involved in Abu Ghraib of “cowardice.” Then she noted that as a South Carolinian she intended to work very hard to ensure that he would not be the senior senator beyond January 2009.

As to the merits of his charges against her, Gen. Karpinski revealed that she had actually pressed hard to be court-martialed and to appear before a jury of her peers, to get the whole truth up and out. She explained that the Army refused her request, presumably because a court martial might jeopardize the Pentagon’s attempt to restrict blame to the “few bad apples.”

Graham was initially taken somewhat aback, but he recovered quickly. He offered no apology. Rather, he attempted to trivialize what had just happened with the jovial remark, “Well, I guess I lost your vote!” Smirk. Smirk.

Make that two votes.

Afterwards, it was back to high-society small talk and wine, while I looked for someone to really talk to. A reporter who has been covering the issue from the start sought me out and told me something that made me want to cry.

“You know we’ve talked over the years and I have followed your case, but I just want to tell you that I have found everything you’ve said to me all along to be true.”

For so long people have tried so hard to discredit either me or my testimony. Now the dust had settled for a moment; it was encouraging to know the truth can still stand tall.

I ended up hanging out with Janis Karpinski and later walking her to the Metro station. I gave her a big hug and told her I’d always be her soldier. Then, as she went down the escalator I saluted her, and she returned my salute.

“Thank you,” she said. “Anytime, General!” I replied. Anytime.

First published at www.Consortiumnews.com

Source: ICH
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Keltoi
03-29-2007, 03:29 AM
It is well established that when the commanding officer at Gitmo was reassigned to Abu Ghraib prison things changed dramatically. This man was known to promote interrogation techniques that were controversial to say the least. I think most objective observers have figured out that the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were given direct orders. Nobody knows exactly how far up the chain of command these interrogation techniques were ordered. The truth will come out eventually. Most point to Donald Rumsfeld, which might be accurate, but I have my doubts about that. I think the former Gitmo commander and military intelligence had an ongoing program of interrogation that started in Cuba and found its way to Abu Ghraib.
Reply

atha
03-29-2007, 01:30 PM
Assalam-u-alaikum

Just a note that these techniques we saw here were actually also applied in the past by israeli government to the palestinian civilians who have been detained. There is a possibility that the Isreali government gave some 'tips' to their friends.

kind regards
assalam-u-alaikum
Reply

Name
03-29-2007, 01:34 PM
cool
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
wilberhum
03-29-2007, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by atha
Assalam-u-alaikum

Just a note that these techniques we saw here were actually also applied in the past by israeli government to the palestinian civilians who have been detained. There is a possibility that the Isreali government gave some 'tips' to their friends.

kind regards
assalam-u-alaikum
I thought everyone knew that Israel and the US worked together to developed torture techniques. There is a whole department dedicated to it. It is well established, at least on this forum, all evil comes from the US and or Israel. :?
Well I shouldn't allow such stupid statements to detract from our disgrace. I don't think they will ever get to the bottom of whom and how high up it was approved. In that I think silence is consent, I think it goes a long way up.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-29-2007, 04:22 PM
I can understand frustration regarding this prison and gitmo, but what exactly is expected here? Do you think these people will be just handing out the information just because they are being held captive? I think a certain level of "coerciveness" is required to get the information needed for the greater good. Also I have to say the Muslim outrage about this is frankly quite ridiculous, especially since it is Muslims that are executing, cutting off heads, digging graves, blowing each other up, etc. Perhaps if as much concern was raised about this rather than the "torture" in Abu Gharib then no one would need to be interrogated in the first place.
Reply

wilberhum
03-29-2007, 05:14 PM
Mtaffi,
I do not agree with your “Greater Good” concept. Have you ever heard, “The end does not justify the means”?
the Muslim outrage about this is frankly quite ridiculous
How so? Because the torture is not the worst thing in this world, it is OK? Is that all part of your “Greater Good” excuse? So we should just pick out the “Worst Problem” and work on nothing else?
Don’t brush off and excuse the evil we do basted on the fact that it is not the most evil. :raging: :raging:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-29-2007, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I thought everyone knew that Israel and the US worked together to developed torture techniques.
Give me a day or so to go through my files, because I think the one I'm looking for is a couple of years old... but it does record a training program the Israeli government made available to members of the U.S. military and named several anti-terrorist experts in the field. Not sure if it covered "torture techniques" but we'll see if anyone at Abu Graib is connected in any way (eg: attended that course).

I don't want to minimize the plight of the prisoners who were victimized, because the word "torture" is a matter of perspective, but from what I had seen of Abu Graib, alot of this was college-style antics (hazing rituals). Mile high clubs and panty parties - very base, juvenile behavior, so I had trouble at first in believing any senior officers were involved.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

wilberhum
03-29-2007, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Give me a day or so to go through my files, because I think the one I'm looking for is a couple of years old... but it does record a training program the Israeli government made available to members of the U.S. military and named several anti-terrorist experts in the field. Not sure if it covered "torture techniques" but we'll see if anyone at Abu Graib is connected in any way (eg: attended that course).

Ninth Scribe
The training takes place at 1:00 PM every Thursday. Look under "Torture 101".

We really should not make light of these sick acts but I guess that it is OK since our humor shows our opposition. :skeleton:

I see you added some, so I will to. I was sad to see that you minimized the situation some. Our agreement stopped with that.

A man, standing on a box, with arms out, blindfolded, holding on to cords, is torture.
God only knows what was going through that poor man’s mind.

I see no relationship to “college-style antics”. I see torture.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-29-2007, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I can understand frustration regarding this prison and gitmo, but what exactly is expected here? Do you think these people will be just handing out the information just because they are being held captive? I think a certain level of "coerciveness" is required to get the information needed for the greater good. Also I have to say the Muslim outrage about this is frankly quite ridiculous, especially since it is Muslims that are executing, cutting off heads, digging graves, blowing each other up, etc. Perhaps if as much concern was raised about this rather than the "torture" in Abu Gharib then no one would need to be interrogated in the first place.
I understand that, but there are lines that should have been drawn. For instance, raping the women - what did that accomplish? It provoked Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and he beheaded Nick Berg! This was action-reaction. Or did you think they dressed him in the orange colored jumpsuit... just for fun?

Just remember this. In the United States, rape is not considered a serious offense (usually it means five years in the boyz club (prison), but that doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees with that. It doesn't mean I do either. I think if a man is guilty of rape, he should be turned into a Eunich! From what most men have told me, they would rather die first.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-29-2007, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Mtaffi,
I do not agree with your “Greater Good” concept. Have you ever heard, “The end does not justify the means”?

How so? Because the torture is not the worst thing in this world, it is OK? Is that all part of your “Greater Good” excuse? So we should just pick out the “Worst Problem” and work on nothing else?
Don’t brush off and excuse the evil we do basted on the fact that it is not the most evil. :raging: :raging:
I am just saying that the enemy is the enemy and unless you know a way to retrieve the information without the use of creative means then I say do what you have to do. I expected someone to get fired up about this so I say sorry to any of those that i have offended with this but as I have said before, extreme times call for extreme measures. If these people can get the necessary information using these tactics and it will provide safety for me, I say use them, the people that they are getting used on are out to hurt me anyways.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-29-2007, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I see no relationship to “college-style antics”. I see torture.
The hazing rituals have killed many students. It is sick behavior. You won't get any argument from me on that point and I'm not minimizing the scope by suggesting the "torture" seems connected to hazing rituals. It does! They make them do all kinds of dangerous and degrading things, hence the reason most states have banned them. As I said before in another thread, I would much rather be held prisoner by the Mujahideen, since they abide by a certain code of respect. Or to quote myself: Don't know about you, but I for one would not want to be photographed buck naked, hand-cuffed together in some twisted mile-high club, with twenty others!

I'm offering these links so you'll understand the connection I made in terms of hazing practices and Abu Graib:

http://www.stophazing.org/definition.html

http://hazing.hanknuwer.com

Ninth Scribe
Reply

wilberhum
03-29-2007, 06:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The hazing rituals have killed many students. It is sick behavior. You won't get any argument from me on that point. They make them do all kinds of dangerous and degrading things, hence the reason most states have banned them. As I said before in another thread, I would much rather be held prisoner by the Mujahideen, since they abide by a certain code of respect. Or as I put it:

Don't know about you, but I for one would not want to be photographed buck naked, hand-cuffed together in some twisted mile-high club, with twenty others!

Ninth Scribe
Well it looks like we are back on the same page. Maybe we always were. :skeleton:
I hope so.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-29-2007, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
As I said before in another thread, I would much rather be held prisoner by the Mujahideen, since they abide by a certain code of respect.

Right the Mujahideen, dont they just cut your head off or shoot you in the back? Real respectful people, I know I would just love to be the next person to be interrogated by them :phew
Reply

wilberhum
03-29-2007, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Right the Mujahideen, dont they just cut your head off or shoot you in the back? Real respectful people, I know I would just love to be the next person to be interrogated by them :phew
I don't think her implication was ALL Mujahideen.
But I think your implication is ALL Mujahideen.
ALL is wrong, which ever side you are taking.:raging:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-29-2007, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Right the Mujahideen, dont they just cut your head off or shoot you in the back? Real respectful people, I know I would just love to be the next person to be interrogated by them :phew
In warfare, I'm cool with dying. What I'm not cool with are the following:

Some Examples of Hazing:

Verbal abuse
Threats or implied threats
Asking new members to wear embarrassing or humiliating attire
Stunt or skit nights with degrading, crude, or humiliating acts
Sleep deprivation
Sexual simulations/sexual assaults
Expecting new members/rookies to be deprived of maintaining a normal schedule of bodily cleanliness.
Be expected to harass others

If the U.S. government intends to show the world how much better Americans are, this s--t is not helping their cause any.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-29-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don't think her implication was ALL Mujahideen.
But I think your implication is ALL Mujahideen.
ALL is wrong, which ever side you are taking.:raging:
Really? I didnt know you were the designated speaker for ninth scribe? Please tell me more about what she meant, and do tell how I was supposed to tell that she didnt mean all when she was very unspecific :)
Reply

MTAFFI
03-29-2007, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
In warfare, I'm cool with dying. What I'm not cool with are the following:
As you should be when you are going off to war

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Verbal abuse
Right, and I am sure the Mujahideen never say a cross word to those they kill
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Threats or implied threats
So you mean like the threats issued by Al-Qaeda, Mujahideen, etc
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Asking new members to wear embarrassing or humiliating attire
Like what Iran is doing making that navy women wear a headscarf
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Stunt or skit nights with degrading, crude, or humiliating acts
Do you think it is not degrading when those who are shot in the back are shot while they are digging their own graves?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Sleep deprivation
How much sleep do you get when you are held captive anyways?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Sexual simulations
This I agree with you, it is degrading, however most of those involved with such cases are prosecuted in military court. However, it is not exclusive to American forces either the Mujahideen have done the same
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Expecting new members/rookies to be deprived of maintaining a normal schedule of bodily cleanliness.
How many baths does a captive get with the Mujahideen?
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
If the U.S. government intends want to show the world how much better Americans are, this s--t is not helping their cause any.

Ninth Scribe
I think the American government is attempting to show the world that we are not going to put up with this type of s--t (ie blowing up our buildings, embassies, 100s of 1000s of buses, cars and people)
Reply

Keltoi
03-29-2007, 09:10 PM
The orange jumpsuit that Abu Murderqawi put on Nick Berg was intended to mimic the jumpsuits that prisoners at Gitmo were wearing, not Abu Ghraib.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The orange jumpsuit that Abu Murderqawi put on Nick Berg was intended to mimic the jumpsuits that prisoners at Gitmo were wearing, not Abu Ghraib.
Sorry, but according to all sources, Nick Berg was beheaded in response to abuses at Abu Ghraib... see links:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...eheading_x.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...prisoner_x.htm

Ninth Scribe
Reply

wilberhum
03-30-2007, 05:15 PM
Nick Berg was beheaded in response to abuses at Abu Ghraib
There are reasons and there are excuses.

Abu Ghraib was an excuse, terrorism was the reason.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don't think her implication was ALL Mujahideen.
But I think your implication is ALL Mujahideen.
ALL is wrong, which ever side you are taking.:raging:
Thank you for that. Yes, when Margaret Hassan was video-taped, her captives claimed to be Mujahideen. If they were, they were not led by Zarqawi because he got online and called for her immediate release, reminding her captors of their duty to Sharia. He also played a pivitol role in Jill Carroll's release. This wasn't a favor... it was merely because she was an innocent.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi did try to address the problem with renegade groups who used the name Mujahideen, but did not live up to the responsibilities that go with the name. This is why he formed the MSC. Killing him, in my humble opinion was an enormous mistake!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There are reasons and there are excuses.

Abu Ghraib was an excuse, terrorism was the reason.
I just watched the video on this, I must say I have a lot of hate right now towards some people. The man was a contractor and had nothing to do with the torture at Abu Gharib. People wonder why there is Islamophobia, gee maybe it is because people cut innocents heads off, broadcast the event, tell the parents bodies will continue to come back like this, and shout God is Great while they are doing it.

I was researching Islam and the Quran, but after witnessing this so help me God I will never touch that book again except to get rid of it :raging: :raging: :raging: :raging: :skeleton: :enough!:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There are reasons and there are excuses.

Abu Ghraib was an excuse, terrorism was the reason.
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi: One of the men behind Berg in the video read a statement that referred to the "satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners and said: "For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib, and they refused. Coffins will be arriving to you one after the other, slaughtered just like this."

Zarqawi's role in Iraq was defensive. Those Iraqis who requested his help in thwarting the U.S. invasion of Iraq were within their right. The invasion is illegal... a conclusion even King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia now agrees with.

I'm past caring about issues of pride or saving face. We should leave Iraq.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi: "For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib, and they refused. Coffins will be arriving to you one after the other, slaughtered just like this."

Zarqawi's role in Iraq was defensive. Those Iraqis who requested his help in thwarting the U.S. invasion of Iraq were within their right. The invasion is illegal... a conclusion even King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia now agrees with.

I'm past caring about issues of pride or saving face. We should leave Iraq.

Ninth Scribe
AND WHO IS ZARQAWI TO TELL ANYONE ANYTHING? IS HE THE ELECTED LEADER OF IRAQ? TELL ME OH GREAT SMART ONE, WHERE DOES HIS AUTHORITY COME FROM, CUTTING OFF THE HEADS OF INNOCENT CONTRACTORS! WHO IS HE NOW, NO ONE BECAUSE HE IS DEAD AND RIGHTFULLY SO, I HOPE HE ENJOYS HIS STAY IN HELL:raging:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I just watched the video on this, I must say I have a lot of hate right now towards some people. The man was a contractor and had nothing to do with the torture at Abu Gharib. People wonder why there is Islamophobia, gee maybe it is because people cut innocents heads off, broadcast the event, tell the parents bodies will continue to come back like this, and shout God is Great while they are doing it.

I was researching Islam and the Quran, but after witnessing this so help me God I will never touch that book again except to get rid of it :raging: :raging: :raging: :raging: :skeleton: :enough!:
Beheadings are an Arab tradition. The Saudis conduct public beheadings of prisoners who are found guilty of crimes that are punishable by death. President Bush was informed that civilians who helped support the invasion of Iraq would be considered in the same light as the soldiers who invaded the country... and knowing this, president Bush sent them in anyway!

Turn the tables dear one. If the republicans couldn't resolve their dispute with the democrats and resorted to selling our country out to invaders to solve their political issues, would we not fight the invasion? Would we not charge sell-outs with... treason?

What is the punishment here for... treason?

Ninth Scribe

By the way: "So Help Me God' = Calling for Azrael (just so you know).
Reply

wilberhum
03-30-2007, 06:02 PM
Zarqawi's role in Iraq was defensive.
Zarqawi was a murdering terrorist. Civil war was Zarqawi's main objective.
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Beheadings are an Arab tradition. The Saudis conduct public beheadings of prisoners who are found guilty of crimes that are punishable by death.
What was this mans crime? And I dont care what is an Arab tradition, Arabs are sick and need to move into this century

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Turn the tables dear one. If the republicans couldn't resolve their dispute with the democrats and resorted to selling our country out to invaders to solve their political issues, would we not fight the invasion? Would we not charge sell-outs with... treason?
What is the punishment here for... treason?
I am not going to make this about republicans and democrats, this is about uncivilized people that kill in the name of God. That hold a mans head in front of the world saying God is great. There is no turning the tables because the US will never be on that side of the table, there is only one group in the world on that side of the table, and whether it be on my hands or someone elses the mans death will be avenged 10 fold

SO HELP ME GOD
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Zarqawi was a murdering terrorist. Civil war was Zarqawi's main objective.
Well we are what we eat (laws of consumption), and now that we've subjected the Iraqis to a civil war, we're about to head into our own. I used to believe, much like you, that Zarqawi was a "murdering terrorist" but the people here weren't careful. Those who know me would warn you. I have an excellent memory and flawless comprehension so you have to be very careful what you say in my hearing. If a statement changes, even in a very subtle way, I'll catch it immediately. Like it or not, there has been an aweful lot of lying going on where the subject of Iraq is concerned... and especially where Zarqawi was concerned. I don't like liars. Had people not lied so much, I wouldn't have bothered to investigate. But, here we all are. One happy bunch, aren't we?

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Well we are what we eat (laws of consumption), and now that we've subjected the Iraqis to a civil war, we're about to head into our own. I used to believe, much like you, that Zarqawi was a "murdering terrorist" but the people here weren't careful. Those who know me would warn you. I have an excellent memory and flawless comprehension so you have to be very careful what you say in my hearing. If a statement changes, even in a very subtle way, I'll catch it immediately. Like it or not, there has been an aweful lot of lying going on where the subject of Iraq is concerned... and especially where Zarqawi was concerned. I don't like liars. Had people not lied so much, I wouldn't have bothered to investigate. But, here we all are. One happy bunch, aren't we?

Ninth Scribe
whatever so some people lied so Zarqawi is a hero and a saint. He never at all contributed to the state that Iraq is in today, it is all the US.... for someone who tries to project intelligence as you do you are sure ignorant
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am not going to make this about republicans and democrats, this is about uncivilized people that kill in the name of God. That hold a mans head in front of the world saying God is great. There is no turning the tables because the US will never be on that side of the table, there is only one group in the world on that side of the table, and whether it be on my hands or someone elses the mans death will be avenged 10 fold

SO HELP ME GOD
That is a very pretentious line... uncivilized people? You have no right to judge the Arab people.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
That is a very pretentious line... uncivilized people? You have no right to judge the Arab people.

Ninth Scribe
I can judge whomever I please, however in this case it is not judging, their actions speak for themselves it has nothing to do with judging
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I think the American government is attempting to show the world that we are not going to put up with this type of s--t (ie blowing up our buildings, embassies, 100s of 1000s of buses, cars and people)
We're going to show the world... by commiting this type of s--t? You're starting the story at the year 2001? That's the middle of the story, not it's beginning. These men (Arabs) weren't doing these things for fun! I've been digging at the pages of history and I've become ashamed of what my government has been up to behind our backs! Civilized??? OMG! We trusted them and they sold us out... for profit!

Those greedy, slimey little shrews are finished! So Help Me God!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
their actions speak for themselves it has nothing to do with judging
Defending their country is not a crime. It doesn't belong to the United States... and it never will. Abu Ghraib is a reminder of the reasons why.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
We're going to show the world... by commiting this type of s--t? You're starting the story at the year 2001? That's the middle of the story, not it's beginning. These men (Arabs) weren't doing these things for fun! I've been digging at the pages of history and I've become ashamed of what my government has been up to behind our backs! Civilized??? OMG! We trusted them and they sold us out... for profit!

Those greedy, slimey little shrews are finished!

Ninth Scribe
What are we commiting? I start this story long before 2001, which is why I mention embassy bombings. No one sold us out the arabs sell their people out for oil and wealth, our country protects us
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Defending their country is not a crime. It doesn't belong to the United States... and it never will.

Ninth Scribe
And the US never wanted it or tried to take it...
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
whatever so some people lied so Zarqawi is a hero and a saint. He never at all contributed to the state that Iraq is in today, it is all the US.... for someone who tries to project intelligence as you do you are sure ignorant
It is you who are defending liars. Deception is not Intelligence. To defend deception is to prefer ignorance.

This thread concerns the Abu Ghraib prison... and the deceptions I speak of have been made perfectly clear when the scandal was brought into the light of day for all to see. You can swear, curse and kick chairs all you like... it changes nothing!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
It is you who are defending liars. Deception is not Intelligence. To defend deception is to prefer ignorance.

Ninth Scribe

I am not defending liars, you have not provided any proof of any lies, I am defending freedom, I am defending all of the innocent Iraqis who had nothing to do with Zarqawi or the US but died anyways because of senseless violence, I am defending my right to live without worrying about what some extremist blowing themselves up at the marketplace with no real target. Zarqawi is a liar in the sense that he told people they were fighting against an occupation, when really he wanted war with the US before they even got to Iraq, it is you who is ignorant
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-30-2007, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
our country protects us
You're country has taken a course that will ensure war until American Supremecy is acheived across the whole of the Earth. It is a war over oil and influence and it is unjust and the leaders who envisioned it are twisted. They will not be able to defend this country because they are making too many enemies of other countries. Even those who were their allies have discovered the lies and depravity, which brings us back to Abu Ghraib: What is it they've learned about how great and civilized America is? Oh yes, hazings rituals!

You're a free soul and you may think what you like, but you will never gain my agreement on these issues and if you'll excuse me... I have some bigger fish to fry today.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

wilberhum
03-30-2007, 07:36 PM
has been an aweful lot of lying going on where the subject of Iraq is concerned... and especially where Zarqawi was concerned.
Truth is the first casuality of war. But when you stand up in front of a camra and cut someone's head off for working on reconstruction, you are a murdering terrorist.
Reply

Keltoi
03-30-2007, 07:44 PM
If there is such a lack of "heroes" on the side of "insurgents", and those that give them lip service, that Zarqawi is given praise, then that says alot about the state of the "insurgency".
Reply

MTAFFI
03-30-2007, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
You're country has taken a course that will ensure war until American Supremecy is acheived across the whole of the Earth. It is a war over oil and influence and it is unjust and the leaders who envisioned it are twisted. They will not be able to defend this country because they are making too many enemies of other countries. Even those who were their allies have discovered the lies and depravity, which brings us back to Abu Ghraib: What is it they've learned about how great and civilized America is? Oh yes, hazings rituals!

You're a free soul and you may think what you like, but you will never gain my agreement on these issues and if you'll excuse me... I have some bigger fish to fry today.

Ninth Scribe

Again your true ignorance shines through like the morning sun, America doesnt want to rule the world and doesnt want or need the oil in Iraq or the middle east for that matter. The US has the same enemies it had before the war. As far as your comment about hazing rituals, I suppose that is better than raping women that are found in public without men, better than beheading an innocent man, better than beheading anyone for that matter, better than our leader letting us live in poverty while he collects his oil check every month, better that state run television, better than blowing up women and children, better than publicized mass executions without knowing even the names of the people you are killing, better than killing children in car bombs, etc. You can concentrate on the flaws of the US, but at least the motives behind the flaws are for peace you cannot say the same for your friends behind the madness in Iraq, everyone makes mistakes it is how you correct the mistake that defines who you are or what you are, tell me how these people intend on correcting all of their mistakes. Fry that up with your big fish, I hope none of it is haram for you.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
03-31-2007, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Again your true ignorance shines through like the morning sun, America doesnt want to rule the world and doesnt want or need the oil in Iraq or the middle east for that matter. The US has the same enemies it had before the war. As far as your comment about hazing rituals, I suppose that is better than raping women that are found in public without men, better than beheading an innocent man, better than beheading anyone for that matter, better than our leader letting us live in poverty while he collects his oil check every month, better that state run television, better than blowing up women and children, better than publicized mass executions without knowing even the names of the people you are killing, better than killing children in car bombs, etc. You can concentrate on the flaws of the US, but at least the motives behind the flaws are for peace you cannot say the same for your friends behind the madness in Iraq, everyone makes mistakes it is how you correct the mistake that defines who you are or what you are, tell me how these people intend on correcting all of their mistakes. Fry that up with your big fish, I hope none of it is haram for you.
Wow! Well this is better than your religious rant about who is and isn't fit to live in the world. Not sure what you're ravaging on about here. The U.S. was the one who attacked Iraq, not the other way around, and any **** fool knows if you back a dog into a corner, you're going to get bit. No worries now though. The two lands are bound together now. Fair is fair. I'm a firm believer in this rule: You get what you give.

That said, we shall both have to see what the summer brings us~~~~

Ninth Scribe
Reply

snakelegs
03-31-2007, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am just saying that the enemy is the enemy and unless you know a way to retrieve the information without the use of creative means then I say do what you have to do. I expected someone to get fired up about this so I say sorry to any of those that i have offended with this but as I have said before, extreme times call for extreme measures. If these people can get the necessary information using these tactics and it will provide safety for me, I say use them, the people that they are getting used on are out to hurt me anyways.
from everything i have read torture doe not work as a way to get accurate information.
i think it is disgraceful and inexcusable that my country is involved in torturing human beings. i don't care what "the enemy" does - do we react by becoming the enemy?
Reply

Muezzin
03-31-2007, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I just watched the video on this, I must say I have a lot of hate right now towards some people. The man was a contractor and had nothing to do with the torture at Abu Gharib. People wonder why there is Islamophobia, gee maybe it is because people cut innocents heads off, broadcast the event, tell the parents bodies will continue to come back like this, and shout God is Great while they are doing it.

I was researching Islam and the Quran, but after witnessing this so help me God I will never touch that book again except to get rid of it :raging: :raging: :raging: :raging: :skeleton: :enough!:
You describe yourself as Christian but I'm not seeing much peace and love from that post.

In fact, everyone on this thread has to cool off. Go and sit on a whoopee cushion or something, eat a lollipop, take your kids to the park. Just make sure you calm down, everyone.
Reply

snakelegs
03-31-2007, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You describe yourself as Christian but I'm not seeing much peace and love from that post.

In fact, everyone on this thread has to cool off. Go and sit on a whoopee cushion or something, eat a lollipop, take your kids to the park. Just make sure you calm down, everyone.
i recommend blowing bubbles!
Reply

Khan-Ghalgha
04-01-2007, 01:10 AM
What are we commiting? I start this story long before 2001, which is why I mention embassy bombings. No one sold us out the arabs sell their people out for oil and wealth, our country protects us
Yes! Protection! WMD's! RUN for your lives!!!
Reply

snakelegs
04-01-2007, 03:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
our country protects us
do you really believe this? do you think u.s. policy has made us safer? do you think by causing more and more people (muslim and non-muslim) all over the world to hate us that we are more secure?
Reply

Khan-Ghalgha
04-01-2007, 04:06 AM
Protection(fear factor) coupled with revenge are the ground on which the support from the population for Iraqi war rests. Lofty promises and pompous words like Freedom, Democracy are only words.

Westerners don't want muslims to actually be democratic and free, in this case, they say - Saudi Arabia will choose Usama Bin Laden as their president.

They want us pacified and in-check, harmless and subdued - that's what population wants, rulers might have different things on their mind(the usual stuff - money,power,domination), but they are not mutually exclusive, so it works fine for everybody.:thumbs_up
Reply

snakelegs
04-01-2007, 04:23 AM
you do not speak for me and neither does my government.
Reply

Khan-Ghalgha
04-01-2007, 07:52 AM
I'm talking in general, didn't mean disrespect to people who might think differently, I'm sure there is a lot of open-minded people in the west, but the majority isn't immune to brainwashing, unfortunately.

As Josef Gebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister said in 1930, "Any lie, frequently repeated, will gradually gain acceptance."
Reply

Keltoi
04-01-2007, 03:05 PM
The goal of any government should be providing basic security for their people. That is the point of a social contract. However, unlike in the past, war doesn't always bring security. The means of killing mass amounts of people has become way too easy. In many ways our own freedom makes us, the U.S., U.K., Australia, etc, vulnerable. Unnecessary conflicts only make that danger more likely.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
04-01-2007, 06:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
from everything i have read torture does not work as a way to get accurate information.
Thank you! I thought we all got past the infamous Inquisition that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people - for the sake of acquiring land. We should all keep that in mind. I have collected too many reports like the following:



Ninth Scribe
Reply

Khan-Ghalgha
04-01-2007, 09:43 PM
The goal of any government should be providing basic security for their people. That is the point of a social contract. However, unlike in the past, war doesn't always bring security. The means of killing mass amounts of people has become way too easy. In many ways our own freedom makes us, the U.S., U.K., Australia, etc, vulnerable. Unnecessary conflicts only make that danger more likely.
Something we can agree on:). People support, tolerate it(or at least to a certain extant) because they are sure it's for their own security. As more muslims countries are under control as better you can sleep at night.
The problem is people think that Bush mishandled the pacification of Iraqis and might even worsened the situation, more muslims are ready to blow themselves up now than before the war they say.
Of course while bringing security to yourselves, looking like heroes wouldn't hurt either, that's why westerners keep talking about bringing democracy and freedom when in reality, if not the fear they wouldn't care if Iraqis live or die that is if they even knew that such a country exists.
Reply

MTAFFI
04-02-2007, 12:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Wow! Well this is better than your religious rant about who is and isn't fit to live in the world.
You mean the extermist who kill the innocents in senseless acts of violence? No they dont have a place in the world. (However if you would like to put a link to wherever I said that I am sure it will indicate that I am not speaking to a religious group but a group that uses religion to justify its means)

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Not sure what you're ravaging on about here. The U.S. was the one who attacked Iraq, not the other way around, and any **** fool knows if you back a dog into a corner, you're going to get bit. No worries now though. The two lands are bound together now. Fair is fair. I'm a firm believer in this rule: You get what you give.

That said, we shall both have to see what the summer brings us~~~~

Ninth Scribe
What I am ravaging on about here is in regards to the post I responded to, you speak of how no one likes the US, well go ahead give me the countries to feel this way. I am sure the countries you speak of are either ruled by a dictator (or something similar) or are in the middle east and are probably consumed in civil fighting. You speak of the US as if it is so evil, when the very countries you stick up for commit far more atrocites than the US could in a century, and the fact is if these atrocites were not commited in the first place you wouldnt be saying anything about the US, and if they were committed without US involvement you wouldnt say anything about the US or those commiting the acts. You advocate violence by justifying it
Reply

MTAFFI
04-02-2007, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
do you really believe this? do you think u.s. policy has made us safer? do you think by causing more and more people (muslim and non-muslim) all over the world to hate us that we are more secure?
Yes I do, I dont think the policy is the best but I think we are safer without Saddam Hussein around, we are safer without a state run by terrorist (Iraq if we pull out) and we are safer without a nuclear Iran, so yes I feel safer. Also I dont believe more people hate us, I believe the same people hate us as before just more people talk about it.
Reply

MTAFFI
04-02-2007, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You describe yourself as Christian but I'm not seeing much peace and love from that post.

In fact, everyone on this thread has to cool off. Go and sit on a whoopee cushion or something, eat a lollipop, take your kids to the park. Just make sure you calm down, everyone.

I am like a Christian in that I believe the bible to be the true word of God, however I am not a follower of all the beliefs of any one particular faith, especially one where people shout GOD IS GREAT while beheading a contractor.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
04-02-2007, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
You advocate violence by justifying it.
Yes, I do advocate violence. If someone invaded my country on a bogus mission and expected me to just bend over and take it up the -ss, just because they think they're better than us... there would be hell to pay. End of story.

As far as I can tell, it was't the Muslims who were running around like a bunch of wild dogs in heat. It takes a pretty sick mind to try to justify the deplorable state of misconduct at Abu Ghraib... that only served to add insult to injury, but you condone rape as much as you like. Zarqawi didn't, and Jill Carroll is living proof of that. When Sicily had to deal with the Bourbons, we answered that, Zarqawi-style and America loved us for it!

I expect any man who is a man to stand up against that type of crap! Or they don't deserve their women.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
04-02-2007, 08:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, I do advocate violence.
Well we agree on that then
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
If someone invaded my country on a bogus mission and expected me to just bend over and take it up the -ss, just because they think they're better than us... there would be hell to pay. End of story.
Here is the problem, you think it was a bogus mission when in fact it was not. I didnt see any Iraqis very angry when the US first came to town, they were happy to be rid of Saddam, there were hardly any attacks, that is until the "insurgency" came to town, people then had to take things into their own hands. It isnt the US's fault that Al-Qaeda came to Iraq to cause instability, it is Al-Qaedas fault. Just think if it wasnt for those who came into Iraq to fight the US, the US wouldnt be in Iraq today. Iraq may have even become and Islamic state by now. So you are wrong in that you say the US came thinking they were better, you are wrong they came for a bogus missions, and I doubt if anyone was asked to take it up the -ss
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
As far as I can tell, it was't the Muslims who were running around like a bunch of wild dogs in heat. It takes a pretty sick mind to try to justify the deplorable state of misconduct at Abu Ghraib... that only served to add insult to injury, but you condone rape as much as you like. It changes nothing. When Sicily had to deal with the Bourbons, we answered that, Zarqawi-style and America loved us! I expect any man (who is a man) to stand up against that type of crap! Iraq: Do not give hem your daughters or your wives.
Ninth Scribe
First off, I dont condone "all" the acts purportedly carried out at Abu Ghraib, however if they have a known terrorist in custody I expect whatever needs to be done to be done. He is a terrorist and deserves every last minute of it, rape of women on the other hand, well I would not say it hasnt been done and I definitely DO NOT condone such a heinous act, and the majority of those who commit such an act are often caught and punished accordingly. Many of the allegations I believe are false, rape isnt hard to prove... I would say the people that are tortured at Abu and those like them, probably have raped 100 of times more women than those raped by any of the coalition forces.

I find you pretty sick for thinking what happened to that innocent contractor as justifiable. I wonder what you would think if the US troops just started cutting off prisoners heads with kitchen knives, I wonder if that is justifiable.
Reply

wilberhum
04-02-2007, 08:29 PM
If someone invaded my country on a bogus mission and expected me to just bend over and take it up the -ss
I don't think Nick Berg Invaded your country.
How long have you lived In Iraq?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
04-02-2007, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don't think Nick Berg Invaded your country.
How long have you lived In Iraq?
If the situation were reversed (silly Christian lesson about the shoe being on the other man's foot), I wouldn't bend over and take it. If a foreign invader occupied my country, raped my daughters, they would provoke my wrath, and they would pay dearly for that until they could find a way to kill me. But, I don't see this as being a problem with the Arabs. They did invade Sicily, but they didn't rape the women. How bout that?

Nick Berg's own father knew who was to blame and investigations are coming up with the same results. Sorry guys, but I can't condemn these people. Your arguments are duly noted, but they have little substance to them.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

MTAFFI
04-02-2007, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
If the situation were reversed (silly Christian lesson about the shoe being on the other man's foot), I wouldn't bend over and take it. If a foreign invader occupied my country, raped my daughters, they would provoke my wrath, and they would pay dearly for that until they could find a way to kill me.

But, I don't see this as being a problem with the Arabs. They did invade Sicily, but they didn't rape the women. How bout that?

Ninth Scribe
First off you seem rather obsessed with bending over and taking things, 2nd your post had nothing to do with anything said, how many rapes have been proven in Iraq? When the US leaves and there is still all of the rapes, all of the executions, all of the beheadings and sectarian violence who will you blame then?
Reply

Keltoi
04-02-2007, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
First off you seem rather obsessed with bending over and taking things, 2nd your post had nothing to do with anything said, how many rapes have been proven in Iraq? When the US leaves and there is still all of the rapes, all of the executions, all of the beheadings and sectarian violence who will you blame then?
They will talk to Sistani and the spirit of Zarqawi and sort it out...JK
Reply

wilberhum
04-02-2007, 09:00 PM
Ninth Scribe

Did you miss my question?
How long have you lived In Iraq?
Reply

Muezzin
04-02-2007, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am like a Christian in that I believe the bible to be the true word of God, however I am not a follower of all the beliefs of any one particular faith, especially one where people shout GOD IS GREAT while beheading a contractor.
By that rationale, I should insult Christianity because certain of its followers put burning crosses on black people's lawns. Feeling angry towards a religion because of the actions some of its followers is not a very good attitude for religious tolerance, methinks.

Also (this is not directed at MTAFFI) this thread has gone out of control and has departed from the article being discussed in the first post. Thread closed.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-08-2015, 06:32 AM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-14-2012, 08:07 AM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-07-2010, 12:01 AM
  4. Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-30-2009, 10:27 AM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!