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Muslim Woman
03-31-2007, 08:33 AM



I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&

Is there any survey that showed how ignorant/knowledgeable Muslims are about Islam/Quran ? If anyone knows , pl. post it here.

I just saw a ' funny'(??) or pathetic survey about Americans on religion /holy books. U may visit the links to read the full report.



few funny lines: More than 10 percent think that Noah's wife was Joan of Arc. Only half can name even one of the four Gospels, and -- a finding that will surprise many -- evangelical Christians are only slightly more knowledgeable than their non-evangelical counterparts.





Widespread Ignorance About Religion Among Americans

USA Today


http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/ 2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm



Sometimes dumb sounds cute: Sixty percent of Americans can't name five of the Ten Commandments, and 50 percent of high school seniors think Sodom and Gomorrah were married.


Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University, isn't laughing. Americans' deep ignorance of world religions — their own, their neighbors' or the combatants in Iraq, Darfur or Kashmir — is dangerous, he says.


His new book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know — and Doesn't, argues that everyone needs to grasp Bible basics, as well as the core beliefs, stories, symbols and heroes of other faiths...


New Book Examines American Ignorance About Religion
The Washington Post


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/article/2007/03/01/AR2007030102073.html


The United States is the most religious nation in the developed world if religiosity is measured by belief in all things supernatural, from God and the Virgin Birth to the humbler workings of angels and demons.


Americans are also the most religiously ignorant people in the Western world. Fewer than half of us can identify Genesis as the first book of the Bible, and only one-third know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount.


These are just two of the depressing statistics in Stephen Prothero's provocative and timely Religious Literacy.


Americans get an 'F' in religion


TEST YOUR RELIGIOUS LITERACY


DIRECTIONS: Scroll over the question to see the answer. Tally your points and multiply by two to get your score out of 100.


1 point each: Name the Four Gospels.


MORE 1 POINT EACH

Answer: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John


Close X


1 point: Name a sacred text of Hinduism


MORE 1 POINT
Answer: Vedas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, Puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Yoga Sutras, Laws of Manu, or Kama Sutra


Close X


1 point: What is the name of the holy book of Islam?
MORE 1 POINT
Answer: Quran


Close X


1 point: Where according to the Bible was Jesus born?


1 point: President George W. Bush spoke in his first inaugural address of the Jericho road. What Bible story was he invoking?


1 point each: What are the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Old Testament?
1 point: What is the Golden Rule?


2 points: "God helps those who help themselves." Is this in the Bible? If so, where?



2 points: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God." Does this appear in the Bible?


10 points: Name the Ten Commandments.


4 points: Name the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism.


7 points: What are the Seven Sacraments of Catholicism?


1 point each: The First Amendment says two things about religion, each in its own "clause." What are its two religion clauses?



2 points: What is Ramadan? In what religion is it celebrated?


7 points: Match the Bible characters with the stories in which they appear. Some characters may be matched with more than one story or vice versa.



CHARACTERS: Adam and Eve, Noah, Paul, Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Serpent. STORIES: Exodus, Binding of Isaac, Olive Branch, Garden of Eden, Parting of the Red Sea, Road to Damascus, Garden of Gethsemane



MORE 7 POINTS


Answer: Adam and Eve + Garden of Eden; Serpent + Garden of Eden; Abraham + Binding of Isaac; Moses + Exodus or Parting of the Red Sea; Noah + Olive Branch; Jesus + Garden of Gethsemane; Paul + Road to Damascus



Close X
SOURCE: 'Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know' by Stephen Prothero, published by HarperSanFrancisco, March 2007.



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Woodrow
03-31-2007, 01:52 PM
:sl:

Naturally as Muslims we are much more knowledgeable in the Qur'an, than most Christians are in the Bible. The majority of us will read the Qur'an at least once a month. I believe most of us read at least one Juz a day, so in 30 days we have read the entire Qur'an and we read it 12 times a year. Even those of us who are too buzy to read a Juz a day will read 1 or 2 Surahs each day. We all recite at least one surah (al-Fatihah) 5 times a day. The Qur'an is a much more important part of our daily worship, then the Bible is for Christian Worship.


I would also say that more Muslims are knowledgeable in the Bible than the number of Christians. Several reasons for me to say that, because we are commanded to read and learn, many Muslims have read the Bible several times. Here in the US I would say that most Muslims do have at least one Bible in their home and many have several versions. One reason is because we know that at various times we will be appraoched by Evangelicals and we choose to understand what they are talking about. Also many Muslims in the US are reverts and have had exposure to the Bible. I would say that a Christian with good knowledge of the Bible is more likely to revert, than a person with little knowledge. Often You will hear Christian reverts say they met Jesus(as) in the Bible, but did not know or really Love him the way he should be loved, until they came to Islam. Many Muslim reverts will say that they are more of a true Christian in Islam than they were in Christianity.

Many reverts from Christianity were very devout Christians at one time, many were Evangelicals or ministers. But many of them will say that they never really understood the Bible until they accepted Islam.

So I would say more Muslims, have knowledge of the Bible than the number of Christians do. At least for here in the US.
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Trumble
03-31-2007, 04:14 PM
Hehe.. if that sums up the average level of knowledge regarding the Bible I wonder how much Americans know about Buddhism? They probably think the Buddha is alive and well in Nepal somewhere teaching movie and rock stars how to levitate! :D

I should add that I doubt my own country is any different. I should also add, in fairness, that a great many Christians are as just familiar with the Bible as devout muslims are with the Qur'an, and that as I discovered when I first started learning classical Greek there are many learning that language just to read the New Testament. You can never generalize.


P.S I'm delighted to say the only one I didn't know was the one about Dubya's speech! :statisfie
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Keltoi
03-31-2007, 04:15 PM
I remember my grandmother had a 60 year routine. She woke up at 5:30 every morning and read a large amount of the Bible for about 2 hours before the rest of us woke up. While it might be true that many Christians do not read the Bible on a routine basis, I think it would be a mistake to generalize. As for those with knowledge of Christianity being more likely to convert to Islam....don't know about that claim. All the devout Christians I've known during my life stayed Christian...that is sort of the point of being a Christian. Islam is not Christianity, obviously, and no true Christian would convert to Islam to have a better understanding of Jesus Christ. Just my opinion of course.
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Student1
04-01-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Hehe.. if that sums up the average level of knowledge regarding the Bible I wonder how much Americans know about Buddhism? They probably think the Buddha is alive and well in Nepal somewhere teaching movie and rock stars how to levitate! :D
You mean he isn't is Nepal teaching. Someone has been lieing to me. Just kidding BTW

Originally Posted by Trumble
I should add that I doubt my own country is any different. I should also add, in fairness, that a great many Christians are as just familiar with the Bible as devout muslims are with the Qur'an, and that as I discovered when I first started learning classical Greek there are many learning that language just to read the New Testament. You can never generalize.


P.S I'm delighted to say the only one I didn't know was the one about Dubya's speech! :statisfie
I will admit that I am not very knowleadgable about the bible right now, however lately I have been trying to learn and understand more. Will I get it overnight. Abosolutely not. But I will get there eventually. :thumbs_up
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Muslim Woman
04-01-2007, 03:22 PM


Salaam/peace;



Originally Posted by Trumble
.... I'm delighted to say the only one I didn't know was the one about Dubya's speech! :statisfie
---wooooww. how come they did not include u in the survey ? Poor Americans could have got D or E grade instead of F :)



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don532
04-01-2007, 10:08 PM
Please keep in mind "Americans" does not mean "Christians".

Many Americans are sadly lacking in many parts of a good education. It's sad when the puritans came to this country, they quickly founded colleges in which the curricula included philosophy, music and the sciences and now it no longer seems to mean much to so many. Specialization in a higher education can produce people extremely knowledgeable in one subject, but lacking in many basics of living.

Yes, also some Christians do not know much about what they believe. In some churches, there is much emphasis on the emotional parts of the Christian walk. The conversion of the mind, that was such a concern in earlier times is neglected in many churches. Church history, apologetics and other subjects can be lacking. Many Christians can be easy pickings for ideas and cults that preach enough truth to tickle the ears, but hidden inside is falsehood.

There are those of us though, that recognize this shortcoming.
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dougmusr
04-02-2007, 12:17 AM
Naturally as Muslims we are much more knowledgeable in the Qur'an, than most Christians are in the Bible. The majority of us will read the Qur'an at least once a month. I believe most of us read at least one Juz a day, so in 30 days we have read the entire Qur'an and we read it 12 times a year. Even those of us who are too buzy to read a Juz a day will read 1 or 2 Surahs each day. We all recite at least one surah (al-Fatihah) 5 times a day. The Qur'an is a much more important part of our daily worship, then the Bible is for Christian Worship.
Do you feel that the majority of Muslims you speak of could read the Quran in Arabic and give a reasonable translation of its meaning in their primary language?
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Muslim Woman
04-02-2007, 12:33 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by dougmusr
Do you feel that the majority of Muslims you speak of could read the Quran in Arabic and give a reasonable translation of its meaning in their primary language?

-- if u mean read Quran & understand the Arabic language , then no , as most Muslims are non-Arabs , they won't be able to understand the meaning unless s/he reads the translation.


As it is a must to recite few lines from Quran in our daily prayers, we memorised few lines since childhood.

There are many poor Muslims who never went to school & don't know how to read & write in their mother tonge but they can read Quran. We believe that to pronouce each alphabet of Quran , we will get rewards :statisfie


Many people are there who spent their lives without understanding the meaning of Quran but can recite verbatim from Quran . Some people think , it's not good to read the Quran in other languages as Quran came in to Arabic language.


Normally in a Muslim majority country , TV & Radio start with Quran recitation & meaning , regular programmes are there on religion , once a week (min) daily papers publish special page on religion.....so , willingly or unwillingly Muslims come to know about many religious issues in their daily lives.

A question came in to mind now , In the west , do newspapers publish religion page ?
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dougmusr
04-02-2007, 12:37 AM
A question came in to mind now , In the west , do newspapers publish religion page ?
Many newspapers have a religion page, and at times they may include an editorial, but in most cases they are advertisments by local churches pertaining to upcoming events, service times, etc.
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dougmusr
04-02-2007, 12:43 AM
Naturally as Muslims we are much more knowledgeable in the Qur'an, than most Christians are in the Bible. The majority of us will read the Qur'an at least once a month. I believe most of us read at least one Juz a day, so in 30 days we have read the entire Qur'an and we read it 12 times a year. Even those of us who are too buzy to read a Juz a day will read 1 or 2 Surahs each day. We all recite at least one surah (al-Fatihah) 5 times a day. The Qur'an is a much more important part of our daily worship, then the Bible is for Christian Worship.
-- if u mean read Quran & understand the Arabic language , then no , as most Muslims are non-Arabs , they won't be able to understand the meaning unless s/he reads the translation.
I would find these two statements to be contradictory if one takes knowledge to be understanding. If I am in an educational setting and a professor assigns readings from a textbook which he is unable to understand, I would question his knowledge of the material.
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dougmusr
04-02-2007, 12:49 AM
Many people are there who spent their lives without understanding the meaning of Quran but can recite verbatim from Quran . Some people think , it's not good to read the Quran in other languages as Quran came in to Arabic language.
I don't know how to say this without raising anger, but perhaps the fact that much of the world associates Islam with terrorism is due to the fact that a majority of Muslims don't speak Arabic and therefore don't have a clue what the Quran teaches. This makes them easy prey for teachers who freely twist the scriptures to support a radical agenda.
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Muslim Woman
04-02-2007, 01:13 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by dougmusr
I don't know how to say this without raising anger, but perhaps the fact that much of the world associates Islam with terrorism is due to the fact that a majority of Muslims don't speak Arabic and therefore don't have a clue what the Quran teaches. This makes them easy prey for teachers who freely twist the scriptures to support a radical agenda.


---i agree. I m 100 % sure that many if not most Muslims don't know that Quran orders us to escort enemies if they want to hear the words of God. I came to know about this wonderful teaching only few days back when listening to Dr. Zakir Naik.

I m happy that now a days , Muslims are becoming couscious to know what is in Quran & they have started reading the Quran with translation.

here is a fatwa:

Q. some say reciting the Qur'an without understanding the meaning is pointless. Can this be true?

Ans: Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqui
Profession President: Islamic Society of North America (ISNA)


The Qur’an is a book of ‘Ibadah (worship) and its reading, memorization, and listening is all worship. It should be done whether one understands the meaning or not. The Qur’an is also a book of guidance (hidayah). And you cannot get guidance without understanding it.


Therefore, it is very important that we understand the Qur’an. It is better to read a few verses with understanding rather than reading a lot without any understanding and reflection. However, it is important that you read the Qur’an in Arabic because the “Qur’an” is only in Arabic.

The translations of the Qur’an are basically interpretations. These interpretations are not The Qur’an. So, for the purpose of ‘Ibadah the Qur’an must be reciting in its original language in which Allah revealed it.

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...GuestID=HSLPUg
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MustafaMc
04-02-2007, 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
I would find these two statements to be contradictory if one takes knowledge to be understanding. If I am in an educational setting and a professor assigns readings from a textbook which he is unable to understand, I would question his knowledge of the material.
As in every religion, Muslims vary in their devotion to studying their holy book(s) - in this case the Holy Quran. I would say there is a continuum from those who read the Quran daily in Arabic with full understanding to those who have never read it all the way through (and some who can't read). I would expect a "bell-shaped curve" with most people being somewhere in the middle. For myself, I have read the English translation of the Quran only 3 times - perhaps on the low end of the curve.

Muslims learn to recite portions of the Quran in Arabic for their prayers. I believe that most Muslims know the meaning of the portions of the Quran they have memorized. There are some Muslims who have memorized the entire Quran in Arabic even though they don't speak the language. I venture to guess that some of these respected Muslims may not know the meaning of every verse they have memorized in Arabic. If you were to ask me to recite the English meaning of the Fatiha (that I recite in Arabic at least 17 times a day in my prayers) - well, I couldn't. However, I could recite each of the 7 verses in Arabic and then provide a rough translation of each in English. During my prayers, I recite in Arabic, but I think in English terms at the same time to maintain presence of mind.

Allah has willed that I have recently learned the rudiments of the Arabic language such that I can sound out a fair portion of the Quran in Arabic - albeit without understanding. Nearly all translations of the Quran have the corresponding Arabic right beside the translation. I have 5 translations of the Quran and each is a little bit different, but the Arabic is identical down to the last vowel stroke. Those more knowledgeable may correct me, but as far as I know there is only one Arabic version of the Quran.

The confusion is that the Quran was revealed in Arabic and, technically speaking, to read the Quran means to read it in Arabic. When one reads a translation, he is reading a "rendition of the meaning" of the Quran. In other words, I could coarsely read the Arabic without understanding and then read the English translation of the same passage and gather the meaning.
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Hemoo
04-02-2007, 02:34 AM
i wanted to add also

the fact that the Quran is being preserved by Allah (SW) from alteration as it's mentioned in the Quran

(three translations)
015.009
YUSUFALI: We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
PICKTHAL: Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
SHAKIR: Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.


and this saving can be understood clearly when:

1 - when any one learn how did the Quran been transmited to us now he will realize the brilliant thinking of those early muslims.

the early muslims invented many kind of sciences for preserving any kind of text from being alterated through time and used this sciences with Quran and Hadith .

the most important science is named the Hadith and "Sanad" science.

2- also there are many non-arab muslims who memorize the whole Quran ,all the 114 chapter (for example i have seen a video of a young Persian girl from iran and also there are many others in canada and in arab countries also) and this is also as Allah has told us in the Quran

here is three translation :

054.017
YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
PICKTHAL: And in truth We have made the Qur'an easy to remember; but is there any that remembereth?
SHAKIR: And certainly We have made the Quran easy for remembrance, but is there anyone who will mind?


so those two verses in the Quran is proving their truth every day.
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MustafaMc
04-02-2007, 03:29 AM
Yes, brother this is the enduring miracle of Islam that in the early days of Islam when there was no typewriter, printing press, computer word processor, or Xerox copy machine the Quran was preserved to this day intact. I might add that we Muslims believe that every word in the Quran is now verbatim as it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and literally the very Words of Allah that he spoke as revealed through the Angel Jibrael (Gabriel).
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Pygoscelis
04-06-2007, 07:35 PM
Before a young christian opens the bible to read it for themself (intead of listening about what it says from a preacher, like most do) they should be given some kind of warning that it may be dangerous to their faith to do so.

Most ex-christian atheists I know started on their trip to atheism because they opened that book and were shocked at what they found within.
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Muslim Woman
04-06-2007, 11:30 PM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
........Most ex-christian atheists I know started on their trip to atheism because they opened that book and were shocked at what they found within.

---I don't know what Christians found offensive in Bible. I can tell my experience as a Muslim.

I always heard criticism from media that Quran is a book of war , allowed polygamy ,slavery etc , etc. I never knew that or got any single hint from media that Bible has a lot of verses on war , allowed polygamy , slavery etc , etc.

I had no slightest idea about the story of Prophet Lot (p)......very shocking.



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Pygoscelis
04-07-2007, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
---I don't know what Christians found offensive in Bible. I can tell my experience as a Muslim.
There is more wrong than right with the Old testaent, to start. And since they put it at the front of the bible, guess where the average Christian whose never read it before first turns, yup, Genesis. Reads about Adam and Eve, the actual text, which is far less friendly than the stories they've been told re Adam and Eve.

Then they go on to muddle through a whole massive volume of "was born untos", they skip past that and then find themselves reading about all sorts of horrendous things people were commanded to do in the name of God and horrible things God did.

On a surface level reading, ie just reading the words and not having any kind of interpretation provided to you, you get some pretty sickening stuff.

Abraham agreeng to kill his child. God demanding it and then at the last moment changing his mind, like a mobster who tests your loyalty by commanding you t kill your brother with an unloaded gun (unbeknownst you you).

The Noah story. It truly is horrid if you think about it beyond children's songs. THe entire population of the earth, drowned. Notice those kids songs never talk about all the floating corpses and rotting flesh that would be all over the place after the flood. You also rarely hear the part about Noah naked in his tent after the flood and his son seeing him nude and being flogged for it.

And it goes on and on and on. I seriously can't think of more than a couple of old testament bible stories that are NOT horrible tales of immorality. God is depicted as a cruel tyrant, no way around it.

Many Christians reading this for the first time have become ex-Christians by the time they get to the new testament. Which is unfortunate, because that is where God seems to mellow out and where all the more positive messages are in the Bible.

If they manage to read beyond the gospels they then get right back into some of the horrendous stuff, just like the old testament stories. Nasty stuff abounds once more.

The vast majority of casual Christians have absolutely NO IDEA of the horrible things in the book they think is all about love and compassion (rather than murder, genocide, war, incest, slavery, genital mutilation (i don't think there's a more common theme in the bible than God's obession with foreskins), and the list goes on and on)

Casual Christians rarely read the bible theselves, instead listening to what a preacher tells them it says, and many of those who DO decide to read the actual book quickly become atheists.

I can think of no more common way a Christian becomes an Atheist than due to reading the Bible. I have seen countless examples of it (though I myself am not one of them - i was never a Christian to begin with).
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2007, 01:09 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
There is more wrong than right with the Old testaent....here the average Christian whose never read it before first turns, yup, Genesis......The Noah story.....


well , Quranic stories are different from the Bible. But that discussion will be off topic here.


but the question is why Christians don't read Bible ???
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don532
04-08-2007, 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;






well , Quranic stories are different from the Bible. But that discussion will be off topic here.


but the question is why Christians don't read Bible ???
Greetings.
I refer you back to my first post in this thread. The original post in this thread was talking about Americans and their lack of knowledge of the Bible. Do not ignore reality by assuming all Americans are Christians. The US has freedom of religion. There are many faiths here.
Many Christians do read their Bibles. It is a regular practice in my house, in the church I attend, and the churches my Christian friends attend.
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2007, 02:28 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by don532
.....Many Christians do read their Bibles. It is a regular practice in my house, in the church I attend, and the churches my Christian friends attend.

the above survery & from other sources , what i understood is many Chrisitians don't read Bible. Some Chuches don't encourage to read the whole Bible , some don't think it's a must.


take no offence , pl. it's not my intention to hurt Christians feelings .

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don532
04-08-2007, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;





the above survery & from other sources , what i understood is many Chrisitians don't read Bible. Some Chuches don't encourage to read the whole Bible , some don't think it's a must.


take no offence , pl. it's not my intention to hurt Christians feelings .
I understand. No offense taken. Many who call themselves Christians don't read the Bible regularly. Similarly, many who call themselves Muslim don't read the Qur'an regularly either. I have met both kinds of people.

I have never seen a church that doesn't encourage its congregation to read the Bible. If such a church exists, it is not following the Bible.

In my opinion, when describing America, one word sums it up best. That word is diverse.
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Pygoscelis
04-08-2007, 04:05 AM
I think it is fair to say that far more muslims read the quran than christians read the bible. I think it is even fair to say that the average muslim knows more of what is in the bible than the average christian does, odd as that may sound.

There are of course some christians who DO read the bible, but they are rare. Most depend on preachers to tell them what it says. Its an interesting phenomenon, and one that I think has helped Christianity survive and vary and adapt - it can say just about anything, all you need is the right preacher to read it that way and a flock who will follow.
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Keltoi
04-08-2007, 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think it is fair to say that far more muslims read the quran than christians read the bible. I think it is even fair to say that the average muslim knows more of what is in the bible than the average christian does, odd as that may sound.

There are of course some christians who DO read the bible, but they are rare. Most depend on preachers to tell them what it says. Its an interesting phenomenon, and one that I think has helped Christianity survive and vary and adapt - it can say just about anything, all you need is the right preacher to read it that way and a flock who will follow.
I wouldn't say Christians who read the Bible are "rare". Most of the Christians I know do read the Bible. Of course there are many Christians who do not or have not read the Bible, but that mostly depends on one's interest in reading literature of any kind, which is a different topic altogether.
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2007, 09:45 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by don532
.... Do not ignore reality by assuming all Americans are Christians. The US has freedom of religion. There are many faiths here.

I guess , the survery was done among Christians. Othewise , result came differntly ...i.e. Muslims know so & so , Christians know that much etc.

As the report only talks about US Christians , i m sure non-Christians were not included....well , i don't not remember the whole report now.



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Muslim Woman
04-08-2007, 10:11 AM
Salaam/peace

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think it is fair to say that far more muslims read the quran than christians read the bible.
--2 main reasons for Muslim to read Quran are : it's a must to recite few lines from Quran in daily prayers & we believe , for uttering even each alphabet from Quran , we will get rewards :statisfie


Do Christians have any such belief about Bible ?



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Pygoscelis
04-08-2007, 10:34 AM
Not that I'm aware of. If they do, then they keep it pretty secret.
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2007, 10:44 AM
Salaam/peace

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Not that I'm aware of. If they do, then they keep it pretty secret.
+o(



I have never seen a church that doesn't encourage its congregation to read the Bible. If such a church exists, it is not following the Bible.
I don't remember exactly now , most probably the author was a RC who wrote something like that his/her Church does not encourage to read other than Chuches own materials.

Any RC here ?

PS. i miss Sis Jayda , she was a good Catholic .


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MustafaMc
04-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I wouldn't say Christians who read the Bible are "rare". Most of the Christians I know do read the Bible. Of course there are many Christians who do not or have not read the Bible, but that mostly depends on one's interest in reading literature of any kind, which is a different topic altogether.
My observation as a former Christian (Baptist then Church of Christ) is that most devout Protestant Christians regularly read there Bible. There are of course gradations in devotion to one's religion - regardless of which religion is there's. I have less knowledge of Catholic Christians, but a Protestant convert to Catholicism has told me that her observation is that Catholics read the Bible much less on average than Protestants.

Another thing to remember is that when one accepts either the Bible or the Quran as the inspired or literal Word of God that s/he does not read it critically, but accepts what s/he doesn't understand. To question the legitimacy of one's "holy book" is to question the very foundation of one's religion. This is a very difficult thing to do because religion is a fundamental part of some people's self-identity.

There are things in every religion that we humans don't understand fully, but we chose to believe one way or another. To believe that belief in the Oneness of God as the critical component of salvation is almost as difficult for an non-believer to accept as the belief that Jesus was the "Son of God" and that he died on the cross for our sins. Of course these beliefs are diametrically opposed and one must choose to believe one way or the other, or to reject them both.

When a believer reads his or another's book, he reads it from his own personal prejudice as to whether or not it is the Word of God. When one reads his own book and comes across something he doesn't understand, then he decides to believe it anyway because it is the "Word of God". When one reads something in another's book that he doesn't understand or is contrary to his own beliefs, then he rejects it as not being from God, but being man-made or mis-guidance from Satan.
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Grace Seeker
04-24-2007, 11:38 PM
Muslim Woman, you posted this in another thread:

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;


when u have time , will u pl. visit this thread ? How-much-christians-know-about-bible>>?

I want to know why so many educated Christians don't read Bible ? Why Americans got an F on Bible ?


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post706774

yap :statisfie
Well, it took quite some time for me to get here, but I finally made it.

You've asked two different questions of me:
1) Why do so many educated Christians not read the Bible?
2) Why did Americans get an F on knowledge of the Bible?
(I've restated your questions slightly, but think I've left the essence of them unchanged.)

I would like to start with the second question first.
As a nation, Americans do poorly on most of these general knowledge tests done by the media. For example, not too many years ago, a geography test was given to students graduating from Texas high schools. (For those of you who don't live in the USA and don't know where the state of Texas is located, it is in the center of the country on our southern border with Mexico.) Over 50% of those students were unable to identify the country south of Texas on a map of North America. In another instance, a test was given to first year teachers in the state of Wisconsin, and over 30% could not name the three branches of government as specified by the US Constitution. For entertainment, late night comics will go out on the street asking random people simple questions of general knowledge and invariably they find that the common person knows more about the lives of celebrities than American history, government, literature, science or religion. You ask why American's got an F on the Bible, and the answer is relatively simply. Many simply don't care. They don't care about the Bible or, for that matter, many of the other subjects that one might think it would be important to have some working knowledge about.

Even among those who have completed high school and college, you will find many who focused more on simply getting through and on to other things in their life than on becoming an educated person. Thus, what they learned they learned only long enough to pass a test and then quickly forgot it. As a result, Americans may be among the most educated and at the same time paradoxically most ignorant citizenry in the world.


Now, to your first question, why do so many educated Christians not read the Bible? First, I am not sure why you speak specifically of educated Christians? If by that you are speaking of people who have enough education to be literate and able to read -- the literacy rate in the USA is at 98%. If by that you are speaking of people who have a higher education beyond say high school (also known as secondary) the graduation rates are 85% for a secondary school education and 27% for a post-secondary school (or univeristy) diploma or higher. Speaking as a pastor, I do not notice a significant differnce among members of my congregation who read their Bibles based on their level of education. Some read it daily. Some read it occassionaly. Some read it rarely. But one would not be able to make a generalization about their reading habits based on a knowledge of how much education they happen to have.

Also, I really do not have enough knowledge about Christians (educated or un-educated) in other places outside of the USA to address your question. So, I would rather consider a question you did not ask. That question being: Why do so many American Christians not read the Bible?

And the first response I have to that question is that I am not sure that it is true. Most American Christians do indeed read the Bible -- at least at some point in time or another. However, this is not the same as saying that large percentages of American Christians read their Bibles regularly, or that they understand what they read, or that they have read the entire Bible. In saying that most American Christians do indeed read the Bible, I mean only that most of them have either picked up a copy and read a few pages, or they have attend an event (usually worship, Sunday school, or some retreat/seminar) where they were introduced to readings from the Bible. This is far short of actually developing the habit of regularly studying the Bible for personal understanding and edification of their faith and life. So, why don't they do that? Well there are a number of reasons:

1) Many American Christians are nominal Christians. That is they are Christian in name only. They may have been baptized into the faith as a child, they may have even joined a church and have their names on a church roll someplace, but the truth is that they do not practice the Christian faith. I think that the actually rate of attendance among church members nationwide is probably somewhere around 30%. This means that more than 2/3 of all people who claim to be Christian, do some as a product of their culture more than of their personal beliefs. I'm sure you see this same thing in Islam. There are people who grow up in a predominately Muslim culture and call themselves Muslims. They may even celebrate Ramadan, and make a haj to Mecca, but they don't really practice Islam in a way that impacts their daily life. How common they are in Islam I don't know, but that they exist I know for a fact, for this is how some of my friends in Turkey and Iran describe themselves to me.

Well, when a person is a "Christian", but not practicing, they are not likely to read the Bible. They may have taken a cursory look at it at sometime, but they aren't likely to be able to answer what I would consider even the simplest of questions with respect to it.

Having said that, this would account for the vast majority of persons in the USA. According to some stats, the USA is about 78% Christian. If as much as 70% of that is only nominally Christian, then one has only about 23% of the population which might even be considered as having an interest in regular reading of the Bible.

2) While some churches do make a very heavy emphasis on use of the Bible, not all churches always have. I know that may sound strange to some -- it actually does to me; but I know it also is true. There might be many reasons that some churches have not emphasized the Bible, but the biggest one is pretty obvious and that is that they have emphasized something else.

One of those groups that would even confess to having given less attention to the Bible than they should have is the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church of course holds to the authority of the Bible, and they would tell you that they based their doctrine firmly on the teachings found in the Bible. But, that doesn't mean that the common layperson in the Roman Catholic Church was expected to read his/her Bible. The Church itself would distill the teachings of the Bible into something they called the Catechism. So, it was that many Roman Catholic Christians would read from their Catechism and not from their Bibles. Now, of course, the Catechism would quote from the Bible, but there is a difference in reading selected passages quoted in the context of discussing a particular church teaching and simply reading the Bible as a book. There are other reasons too, having to do with the liturgical nature of the Roman Catholic Church and the role of the clergy with the life of the Roman Catholic Church, but the net result of all of this was that many Roman Catholic Christians simply didn't feel an urge to read the Bible for themselves, but to let others do it for them and then tell them what it said.

Now, the Roman Catholic Church has acknowledged this as part of their history and today has a much greater emphasis on individual study of the scripture than they formally did. But habits take time to change. And so it is that there still isn't as much Bible reading in most Roman Catholic Churches as you will find in Protestant Churches.

3) But it is also true that many Protestant Churches may not be as big on Bible reading as they think they are. In my own church, we have three adult Sunday school classes, and each one of those classes sees itself as teaching from the Bible. Yet, in truth one of them teaches using a prepared curricula. Like with the Catholic Catechism, it does a lot of quoting from the Bible, but it is not the same as reading the Bible as a whole. In another, they actually do read the Bible -- that is when they get done with all of their other conversation about how people are doing and sharing stories of their past week. Often, out of an hour of class time, they will spend only about 15 minutes on actual Bible study. The third class spends much more of their time on the lesson and sees itself as using the Bible, but it is a teacher centered class, and one can sit through the whole hour and just listen without having to ever open and read the Bible for one's self. And I am not disparaging my lay people who teach these classes. Each was designed to meet a specific need. I also offer two other Bible studies during the week. And even one of these is a topical study, so that while we read the Bible in it, we don't simply sit and read through the whole of it. Rather in it we skip around from place to place picking up topics and themes and seeing how they run through the Bible, not simply reading in one place. So, of 5 different options for study offered to adults in my church, only one is actually a Bible study where the student reads from the Bible for him/herself in process that will result in reading the whole of the Bible. Of my active (i.e. non-nominal) membership, this means that there are only about 10% involved in group study of the Bible in a way that will eventually result in the reading of the entire Bible. Another 50% (for a total of 60%) are involved in other forms of group Bible study, but that still means as many as 40% of practicing Christians are not involved in group Bible study.

4) How about personal Bible study? This is where it gets frightening. My experience is that people who are willing to commit themselves to personal Bible study are almost always to be found as being participants in group Bible study also. So, I have little consolation that there are but a few rare individuals who practice personal Bible study on their own that are not already included in the 60% who are involved in group Bible study. Of course thare are a few of these individual, but they are, as I have already said, rare.

5) Why do those who truly seek to live as practicing Christians and attend churches where reading the Bible is encouraged, promoted, and even provided for not read it?

Now I am speculating, but I think the biggest reason is their philosophy of what is important in the Christian life. There are those who feel that worship or service or some other component of the Christian faith is what is primary to it. Thus, rather than having a balanced approach and doing a little of all, they focus on one aspect of it over others. Indeed there are those that focus on study over service. But there are also those who focus on worship over study. It is not that they don't read the Bible ever, but that reading of the Bible is not central or regular to their own personsal practice of the Christian faith. They get their teaching form sermons, or what they remember of attending Sunday school as a child. (Many adults attend Sunday school regularly as children, but quit doing so as adults, with a false -- in my opinion -- belief that they no longer need such instruction.) Though they may, as a consequence, be ignorant regarding many matters of the faith, they live in blissful ignorance of such a deficiency in their Christian walk.


So, there you have it, my analysis of why Christians don't read their Bibles. Please note, I am not saying that I support such a practice, because I don't. Can one be a Christian without reading the Bible? Sure, but one will not be as well-rounded and certainly not as well-versed as one who does.

I hope I have been able to answer the question you were asking of me. In some ways it is actually unanswerable.
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-25-2007, 12:08 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
....

I hope I have been able to answer the question you were asking of me. In some ways it is actually unanswerable.


u have so much patience , Masha Allah.

Insha Allah , i will read it when i go off line .

thanks :) for the reply



Reply

MustafaMc
04-25-2007, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So, I would rather consider a question you did not ask. That question being: Why do so many American Christians not read the Bible?

And the first response I have to that question is that I am not sure that it is true. Most American Christians do indeed read the Bible -- at least at some point in time or another. However, this is not the same as saying that large percentages of American Christians read their Bibles regularly, or that they understand what they read, or that they have read the entire Bible.

...

Now I am speculating, but I think the biggest reason is their philosophy of what is important in the Christian life. There are those who feel that worship or service or some other component of the Christian faith is what is primary to it. Thus, rather than having a balanced approach and doing a little of all, they focus on one aspect of it over others.
In my opinion, this was a thorough and honest evaluation of the situation. I believe that what was described by GraceSeeker is human nature and not particular to Christians.
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-25-2007, 03:45 AM
what we have to remember, is that many "christians" are christian by name, and NOTHING more.

i get so many text messages saying "if you're proud of ur faith, send this to everyone." i always respond to people saying "if u really know the Bible...." and then i ask a question. and they almost always get it wrong.

the vast, vast majority of americans are NOT practicing, true christians. they are christian by name, and no more.

as for muslims and their knowledge of the bible.. a very, VERY lack of the Bible, definetely. i can not tell you ignorant the vast majority of Muslims are on christianity. they read from islamic sources, and no more. they quote verses totally in correctly. for example, my muslim friend who we call Mimi.. she pasted this verse from this website, and she said it was from the Bible.. so i looked up the verse, and it said NOTHING of the sort! lol

of course, some muslims do have knowledge on the Bible in christianity. so please don't think i'm stereotyping all muslims.

as for Christians and their knowledge of the quran.. i think that religious, practicing christians know more about Islam then non practicing. like me for example.. I have read the qu'ran many times, and have read many of the hadiths. i listen to islamic sermons all the time. and many of my fellow christian friends do.

i still think that a religious muslim would know more about christianity then a religious christian would on islam. i think the reason why, is simply because the christians are obviously the majority here. but like christians in egypt.. hah, they prolly know MUCH more about islam then a muslim does about christianity. same with lebanon prolly.

One of those groups that would even confess to having given less attention to the Bible than they should have is the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church of course holds to the authority of the Bible, and they would tell you that they based their doctrine firmly on the teachings found in the Bible. But, that doesn't mean that the common layperson in the Roman Catholic Church was expected to read his/her Bible. The Church itself would distill the teachings of the Bible into something they called the Catechism. So, it was that many Roman Catholic Christians would read from their Catechism and not from their Bibles. Now, of course, the Catechism would quote from the Bible, but there is a difference in reading selected passages quoted in the context of discussing a particular church teaching and simply reading the Bible as a book. There are other reasons too, having to do with the liturgical nature of the Roman Catholic Church and the role of the clergy with the life of the Roman Catholic Church, but the net result of all of this was that many Roman Catholic Christians simply didn't feel an urge to read the Bible for themselves, but to let others do it for them and then tell them what it said.

Now, the Roman Catholic Church has acknowledged this as part of their history and today has a much greater emphasis on individual study of the scripture than they formally did. But habits take time to change. And so it is that there still isn't as much Bible reading in most Roman Catholic Churches as you will find in Protestant Churches.
what a LIE!!!!

go look at protestant majority nations, and what do you see? hmm, let's see...

you have the U.K., and the fall of the anglican church.
you have the netherlands, and.. do they even have protestant churches anymore??!!??
you have germany, and the few lutherans left.

then you have poland, and its religious Catholics. you have Mexico with most people going to Church weekly. you have Brazil, and religious people. you have the Catholic population just skyrocketting in China, Morocco, Egypt, and just all throughout asia and africa!

you have Catholic Churches in the U.K. on a MAJOR increase.. in fact, there are more Catholics in the U.K. then Anglicans!

RCC - more converts each year then any other protestant denominations.. even more then pentecostals! lol

the Catechism is just a book of our beliefs. but we NEVER use it over the Bible.

and look at any Catechism.. half of it is Scripture being quoted. the other half is what the Scripture has to do with the topic.

i read my Catechism daily.. but not nearly as much as my Bible!
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-25-2007, 04:23 AM
Thirdwatch, why do you call my statement a lie?

First, it was given totally as my analysis, i.e. an opinion, not as objective fact.

Second, I specifically made mention that I was righting with respect to Americcan Christianity, not other countries which you mentioned.

Third, some of the facts you give to substantiate your point of view would appear to me to not speak to it at all, and are true for other reasons, but are irrelevant to your point. Most notably among them that "RCC - more converts each year then any other protestant denominations.. even more then pentecostals! lol". Given that the RCC has 1.1 billion members of the total 2.1 billion Christians on the face of the earth, and the next closest Christian denomination in size is the Eastern Orthodox Church with less than a fifth of that, the Roman Catholic Church must add more members a year than many Protestant denominations have as members just to keep maintain itself. But none of that is relevant to the use of lack of use of the Bible.

Fourth, I don't believe I disparaged the Catholic Church. I reported on some of the historical practices of the church. I said that things had also changed in recent years. And I did not say that these general comments could be applied unilaterally to all Catholics or all Catholic Churches. I said that there isn't as much Bible reading in most Catholic Churches as in Protestant Churches. And I do think that is the case. If it isn't, it isn't a lie, it is something I must not be well-enough informed about.

I have a copy of the Catholic Cathecism. I reported that it was based on the Bible. I didn't say the degre that it quoted the Bible; I could have been more descriptive there. But I made comparison to my own church's use of some of our curricula which I also critiqued, and as I have both available to read I am able to say, as I did, that they are quite comparable. I don't think reading from the Catechism or from my denomination's curriculum is the same as actually reading from the Bible. I don't think you do either or you would not have made mention that you read from your Bible more.

I am glad to see you, and more and more Catholics, getting into their Bibles. I don't know how old you are, I am 50, but I can report to you that in my experience, this is a relatively new thing, since Pope John XXIII. It has taken more than a few years to catch on to the extent that it has, and I don't think yet matches the level of Bible study found in Protestant Churches in America. Again, I am talking about the USA, not Europe.

I am sorry if I have offended you. That, most certainly, was not my intent. You may even find my comments unfounded in your experience, but the best I can do is share my observations from more than a quarter century in ministry. What I have observed I have shared. I don't think it is a lie. But if it is contrary to the truth that you have experienced, please share with us where your experiences differs with what I have observed. You have in one point in saying that you read from your Bible more than your Catechism. What else is different in your experience and that of the majority of Catholics you know. Being Catholic, I am sure you can speak to the Catholic experience better than I.
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thirdwatch512
04-25-2007, 04:56 AM
oh bless, i'm sorry if i offended you! lol i know that i rather snapped. i'm just in a crabby mood today.

anyways, but if a Catholic goes to mass daily, like they should, they would read a lot more then protestants do, as protestants typically only have Church on Sunday lol.

the fact of the matter is though, is the Catholic Church is the Church of God. Matthew 16 says "and upon this rock i will build my Church." now Jesus is talking to Peter in this verse, as it's obvious lol.

some think that Jesus literally meant he was building a Church on a rock.. umm, ok... interesting!

but, one thing to note, is Peter, greek Petra, means "Little Rock." so jesus is telling peter that he will build his Church upon him.. basically, the Catholic Church was started by Peter, by the instruction of Jesus! lol, but that's just a Catholic perspective. i've yet to hear a protestant perspective on that lol
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-25-2007, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
the fact of the matter is though, is the Catholic Church is the Church of God. Matthew 16 says "and upon this rock i will build my Church." now Jesus is talking to Peter in this verse, as it's obvious lol.

some think that Jesus literally meant he was building a Church on a rock.. umm, ok... interesting!

but, one thing to note, is Peter, greek Petra, means "Little Rock." so jesus is telling peter that he will build his Church upon him.. basically, the Catholic Church was started by Peter, by the instruction of Jesus! lol, but that's just a Catholic perspective. i've yet to hear a protestant perspective on that lol

OK. I've certainly heard all of this before. But what does this have to do with Christians frequency, or lack thereof, in reading the Bible?


For a discussion (or rather argument) that included both Protestants and Catholics on this question, among others, check out this thread on Catholic Answers Forums: The Catholic Church is just another denomination.

And while reading the missal is one way to read scripture, it won't get you through the entire Bible. There are passages that the missal and the lectionaries never touch. Even on the Catholic forum I just referred you to, I read polls where in talking amongst one another, 100% of those Catholics who responded prayed everyday, but in some cases only 50% of them ever read the Bible apart from attending worship. In other cases up to 80% said they read the Bible daily -- I doubt if I could get that sort of response anywhere among Protestants, but I'm guessing that these figures are skewed by the sampling size and the type of individuals who would be in the group participating.
Reply

MustafaMc
04-25-2007, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
anyways, but if a Catholic goes to mass daily, like they should, they would read a lot more then protestants do, as protestants typically only have Church on Sunday lol.
I don't think the issue is reading a few select verses in congregation, rather comprehensive reading and studying from beginning to end. As a former Protestant I often read and studied my Bible as I see my more religous Christian relatives still do.
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-25-2007, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. I've certainly heard all of this before. But what does this have to do with Christians frequency, or lack thereof, in reading the Bible?


For a discussion (or rather argument) that included both Protestants and Catholics on this question, among others, check out this thread on Catholic Answers Forums: The Catholic Church is just another denomination.

And while reading the missal is one way to read scripture, it won't get you through the entire Bible. There are passages that the missal and the lectionaries never touch. Even on the Catholic forum I just referred you to, I read polls where in talking amongst one another, 100% of those Catholics who responded prayed everyday, but in some cases only 50% of them ever read the Bible apart from attending worship. In other cases up to 80% said they read the Bible daily -- I doubt if I could get that sort of response anywhere among Protestants, but I'm guessing that these figures are skewed by the sampling size and the type of individuals who would be in the group participating.

the missal just simply has all of ther readings, songs, and all of that in the one book, instead of having to open a Bible to like 20 different pages. it has all of the readings for like a month of something of that nature.

and yes, sadly, 50% of Catholics might not read the Bible daily, but i really don't see the number being any lower among protestants. most people now days feel that if they go to church, that's all they need. they go to Church for more of a social even rather then to Worship! others go to Church on Sunday, read at Church, but feel that Church is the only time they need to read the Word of the Lord. which, is obviously bogus.

but sadly, that's how people feel. but i have noticed a rise in Christianity, contray to what the news seems to portray. the Church i go to has 5 masses each Sunday, and it used to have 3. and a lot of younger people are going. and i think that more and more people are beginning to read the Word of the Lord, and get a sense of what Christianity really is, and not what the media protrays it to be!
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-25-2007, 10:38 PM
I think you might still be not understanding me.


Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
the missal just simply has all of ther readings, songs, and all of that in the one book, instead of having to open a Bible to like 20 different pages. it has all of the readings for like a month of something of that nature.
First, thank-you for explaining this for those who might not have known what I met by the missal. I do know what it is. It will have the day's readings from the Psalms, the Old Testament, the Epsitle, and the Gospel -- one from each. And as you said, by printing it in this fashion one does not have to flip through pages in a Bible to find the passage.

What I think you missed in my referencing of the missal, or maybe are not aware, is that even if one was to read the missal every day of one's life for 100 years, and read all of the scripture passages that are printed in it, one would still not have read the entire Bible. The reason is that neither the missal, nor any lectionary, even tries to present the entire Bible through the use of it. Rather, they present a significant portion of the Bible, they include what are generally considered all of the highpoints, but there are also stories and passages that one would never read if one only knew as much Bible as one read in the missal or heard proclaimed through lectionary based preaching. Check this website out to learn How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? Not as much as you might think, yet far more than was included in the Roman Missal before the Second Vatican Council!.

Just as this Roman Catholic Lectionary website states, "since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible." Thus, in my opinion, there really is no substitute for sitting down with the Bible itself and reading through it.




and yes, sadly, 50% of Catholics might not read the Bible daily, but i really don't see the number being any lower among protestants. most people now days feel that if they go to church, that's all they need. they go to Church for more of a social even rather then to Worship! others go to Church on Sunday, read at Church, but feel that Church is the only time they need to read the Word of the Lord. which, is obviously bogus.
I didn't use the figure of 50% to say that Catholics read the Bible less than Protestants. I can only report on what I know. I have not seen what I would call a scientifically valid survey on the frequency of Bible reading. Some years ago, I attended a seminar where it was said that only about 15% of any congregation are involved in any given activity beyond worship. But, they weren't speaking specifically of Bible study, and it was made as an off-hand comment that happened to catch my attention. So, I don't know if there was any real documentation done on arriving at it. But, in discussing it, to move from mere opinion to something that might be at least close to fact based, one must deal with actual numbers. You will note that I began with numbers based on my own experiences in churches, protestant churches. In doing so, I showed that less than 60% of my active worship attenders were involved in any form of group Bible study. And my active attenders represent less than 2/3 of my membership. So that translates to about 20% of my congregation involved in any form of group Bible study. And then I shared my experience as a pastor is that while not all those who are involved in group Bible study will do the "comprehensive reading and studying from beginning to end" that MustafaMc spoke of, that none who do not engage in the group Bible study will take the time to do the comprehensive persoanl study on their own. I have been a pastor at more than one church, and I find this trend is pretty consistent through-out, though perhaps a little higher at my present church than others I have served. The net result is that I am certain that well less than 50% of Protestant Christians, my guess, probably less than 10% of Protestant Christian take time to do the comprehensive beginning to end study that we are speaking of in elsewhere in this thread.

Now, do more Catholics than that do so. Based on what I have heard and experienced in life, I don't think so. But I did cite the only real numbers I had on Catholics, and in it as much as 80% said they did, and I said so. I also said that I doubted that I could find a Protestant group where the figure would be that high. I do find that figure high and don't think it really reflects the frequency of Bible reading among Catholics. Not that I think those individuals are lying, but rather that they represent a rather unique subset of Catholics, much like yourself, who are more active in practicing their faith than the average Catholic. That is an assumption of mine based on life. I may be right. I may be wrong. And I own that it is just an opinion, not a proven fact.

With respect to the actual 50% figure that I cited and you appear to have taken exception to. Again what that was in reference to is NOT whether or not Catholics read their Bible daily, but the self reporting of a different small group of Catholics who admitted to never reading their Bible at all, but who maintained their faith only through prayer and worship. I don't think we can extrapolate from either of these groups to all of Catholicism, but they are the only hard stats that I had.




but i have noticed a rise in Christianity, contray to what the news seems to portray. the Church i go to has 5 masses each Sunday, and it used to have 3. and a lot of younger people are going. and i think that more and more people are beginning to read the Word of the Lord, and get a sense of what Christianity really is, and not what the media protrays it to be!
That is great news!!! I too see in it some quarters this increased interests. In others I still see stagnation. But let us celebrate the vibrancy of faith and increase in seeking to nurture and express one's spiritual life that you are experiencing in your local congregation. Would that it were true everywhere.
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-26-2007, 01:16 AM
Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

.... You ask why American's got an F on the Bible, and the answer is relatively simply. Many simply don't care. .

--do Christians believe that if they read Bible , they will get rewards from God ?



They don't care about the Bible

---if Christians believe Bible is from God , why don't they care ?



what they learned they learned only long enough to pass a test and then quickly forgot it. As a result, Americans may be among the most educated and at the same time paradoxically most ignorant citizenry in the world.



---i guess , it's true about many of us.....we learnt to get good marks or good job. It reminds me of a hadith : ( not the exact words ) : one sign before the last day is people will learn not to get knowledge but to get earthy benifits only.



the literacy rate in the USA is at 98 %.

--:omg: who are those 2 % unfortunate people ? Must be Muslims :cry:

Many Muslims don't read Quran because they can't read +o(




But one would not be able to make a generalization about their reading habits based on a knowledge of how much education they happen to have.
---those who are highly educated , it's expected that they read outside their syllabus , too. If they read so many books , how come they don't their own holy books ?

I m not telling this about Christians only , many Muslims also read Quran occasionally. 2 reasons they give :

1- they recite from Quran ( it's a must ) in prayers .

2. accidently /unwillingly they don't want to show disrespect to Quran. So , they wraaped Quran in a beautiful cloth & put in the highest place in the room i.e top of the Almirah . LOL.



Why do so many American Christians not read the Bible?

...... that they understand what they read


--- i think, i asked this question earlier ...don't remember the answer. Why so many Christians use the story of Jesus's (p) forgiveness of a prostitute as an excuse to commit major sins like adultery & gayism ?


In minimum 3 forums , few Christians gave me that example . Even if it's true that Jesus (p) told people not to punish that sinner , he must not encourage her to continue the sin.

I feel sad that some or many Christians take this story to justify their sin. How they got that idea that hate the sin but not the sinners ( not the exact words ) mean Christians can commit sins intentionally day after day ? What role Churches play to remove this misconception ?

If this is off topic here , may be u can reply in the answer by Christian thread.


I will read rest of ur post Insha Allah later .

thanks for ur patience....u were learnt to be patient as a part of ur job ? :)



Reply

thirdwatch512
04-26-2007, 02:23 AM
muslim woman - i know you weren't asking me, but i suppose i can answer a few.

[quote]
--do Christians believe that if they read Bible , they will get rewards from God ?
[quote]
reading the Word of God is especially important! so i would say you would get rewards.




---if Christians believe Bible is from God , why don't they care ?
because the vast, vast majority aren't really Chrsitian. they are christian by name, and they want to believe that they are good Christians, but they aren't always. :(





---i guess , it's true about many of us.....we learnt to get good marks or good job. It reminds me of a hadith : ( not the exact words ) : one sign before the last day is people will learn not to get knowledge but to get earthy benifits only.
:)




--:omg: who are those 2 % unfortunate people ? Must be Muslims :cry:
lol no, it's prolly underprivalidged people who our goernment refuses to help. :(

Many Muslims don't read Quran because they can't read +o(
yeah, but the qu'ran isn't very hard to memorize.. and it actually is pretty short. so i don't think it's hard for most muslims to understand the message :-o




---those who are highly educated , it's expected that they read outside their syllabus , too. If they read so many books , how come they don't their own holy books ?
people just simply don't take their faith seriously anymore.

I m not telling this about Christians only , many Muslims also read Quran occasionally. 2 reasons they give :

1- they recite from Quran ( it's a must ) in prayers .

2. accidently /unwillingly they don't want to show disrespect to Quran. So , they wraaped Quran in a beautiful cloth & put in the highest place in the room i.e top of the Almirah . LOL.
lol





--- i think, i asked this question earlier ...don't remember the answer. Why so many Christians use the story of Jesus's (p) forgiveness of a prostitute as an excuse to commit major sins like adultery & gayism ?
adultery is never justified. but we, as Christians, are taught to forgive people, and give other changes. never did Jesus tell the adulteress that she could continue what she was doing. in fact, Jesus told her to NOT do it anymore, and to repent. but He still forgave her.

as for "gayism." not everyone sees homosexuality as a sin. i certainly don't.

In minimum 3 forums , few Christians gave me that example . Even if it's true that Jesus (p) told people not to punish that sinner , he must not encourage her to continue the sin.
Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."- john 8:11

I feel sad that some or many Christians take this story to justify their sin. How they got that idea that hate the sin but not the sinners ( not the exact words ) mean Christians can commit sins intentionally day after day ? What role Churches play to remove this misconception ?
i am sad that Christians take this story to justify their sin too. but to be honest, i don't know many Christians who do that.



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think you might still be not understanding me.


First, thank-you for explaining this for those who might not have known what I met by the missal. I do know what it is. It will have the day's readings from the Psalms, the Old Testament, the Epsitle, and the Gospel -- one from each. And as you said, by printing it in this fashion one does not have to flip through pages in a Bible to find the passage.

What I think you missed in my referencing of the missal, or maybe are not aware, is that even if one was to read the missal every day of one's life for 100 years, and read all of the scripture passages that are printed in it, one would still not have read the entire Bible. The reason is that neither the missal, nor any lectionary, even tries to present the entire Bible through the use of it. Rather, they present a significant portion of the Bible, they include what are generally considered all of the highpoints, but there are also stories and passages that one would never read if one only knew as much Bible as one read in the missal or heard proclaimed through lectionary based preaching. Check this website out to learn How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? Not as much as you might think, yet far more than was included in the Roman Missal before the Second Vatican Council!.

Just as this Roman Catholic Lectionary website states, "since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible." Thus, in my opinion, there really is no substitute for sitting down with the Bible itself and reading through it.




I didn't use the figure of 50% to say that Catholics read the Bible less than Protestants. I can only report on what I know. I have not seen what I would call a scientifically valid survey on the frequency of Bible reading. Some years ago, I attended a seminar where it was said that only about 15% of any congregation are involved in any given activity beyond worship. But, they weren't speaking specifically of Bible study, and it was made as an off-hand comment that happened to catch my attention. So, I don't know if there was any real documentation done on arriving at it. But, in discussing it, to move from mere opinion to something that might be at least close to fact based, one must deal with actual numbers. You will note that I began with numbers based on my own experiences in churches, protestant churches. In doing so, I showed that less than 60% of my active worship attenders were involved in any form of group Bible study. And my active attenders represent less than 2/3 of my membership. So that translates to about 20% of my congregation involved in any form of group Bible study. And then I shared my experience as a pastor is that while not all those who are involved in group Bible study will do the "comprehensive reading and studying from beginning to end" that MustafaMc spoke of, that none who do not engage in the group Bible study will take the time to do the comprehensive persoanl study on their own. I have been a pastor at more than one church, and I find this trend is pretty consistent through-out, though perhaps a little higher at my present church than others I have served. The net result is that I am certain that well less than 50% of Protestant Christians, my guess, probably less than 10% of Protestant Christian take time to do the comprehensive beginning to end study that we are speaking of in elsewhere in this thread.

Now, do more Catholics than that do so. Based on what I have heard and experienced in life, I don't think so. But I did cite the only real numbers I had on Catholics, and in it as much as 80% said they did, and I said so. I also said that I doubted that I could find a Protestant group where the figure would be that high. I do find that figure high and don't think it really reflects the frequency of Bible reading among Catholics. Not that I think those individuals are lying, but rather that they represent a rather unique subset of Catholics, much like yourself, who are more active in practicing their faith than the average Catholic. That is an assumption of mine based on life. I may be right. I may be wrong. And I own that it is just an opinion, not a proven fact.

With respect to the actual 50% figure that I cited and you appear to have taken exception to. Again what that was in reference to is NOT whether or not Catholics read their Bible daily, but the self reporting of a different small group of Catholics who admitted to never reading their Bible at all, but who maintained their faith only through prayer and worship. I don't think we can extrapolate from either of these groups to all of Catholicism, but they are the only hard stats that I had.






That is great news!!! I too see in it some quarters this increased interests. In others I still see stagnation. But let us celebrate the vibrancy of faith and increase in seeking to nurture and express one's spiritual life that you are experiencing in your local congregation. Would that it were true everywhere.
a typical Catholic is asked to have 4 things..

1. Bible
2. Catechism
3. Rosary
4. Crucifix

Church isn't the only time we Worship. Catholics are asked to Worship as much as possible.

i have seen protestant sermons that have been 2 hours long, dedicated entirely on one or two verses. and i can't think of a single Protestant Church that has read the entire Bible. it's no surprise that the same would be for the RCC :)
Reply

Hemoo
04-26-2007, 06:52 AM
okay a question to christians and jews :

how many people you know of your religion memorize the whole verses of the sacred Scripture of your religion?

so how many Jew you know memorize the torah in its original language ?

and how many christian you know memorize the whole Bible in its original revealed language ?
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-26-2007, 09:02 AM


Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
muslim woman - i know you weren't asking me, but i suppose i can answer a few.


--most welcome & thanks :statisfie






reading the Word of God is especially important! so i would say you would get rewards.
----are u talking about the English translation or Bible in its original language --Armanic (? ). Many Muslims believe rewards are only for reciting Quran ( in Arabic) & not the translation. Dad once told me when he was young & a translated book was published on Quran , many Muslims got angry .




people just simply don't take their faith seriously anymore.


-- I feel that at a same time , many people are becoming conscious about religion , what to know what is in a holy book .



as for "gayism." not everyone sees homosexuality as a sin. i certainly don't.
:omg: :rollseyes


why ? why ? why ?

can u give me a single reason based on ur holy book why u think so ?



i am sad that Christians take this story to justify their sin too. but to be honest, i don't know many Christians who do that.
-- what excuse they give then ?


a typical Catholic is asked to have 4 things..

1. Bible
2. Catechism
3. Rosary
4. Crucifix


---- I guess , rosary is like tasbee ? ( sorry don't know the English word ). Say , if i want to utter Allah 100 times , i will count that with the help of tasbee ....rasary is something like that ?
[/QUOTE]


Church isn't the only time we Worship. Catholics are asked to Worship as much as possible.


--how Catholics pray at home ?


i have seen protestant sermons that have been 2 hours long, dedicated entirely on one or two verses.

:rollseyes no wonder , many people fall asleep ....i read about it in Church Funnies ( take no offence , pl. I m sure , Christians wrote these ....Muslims are not supposed to know in details about all these inside the Church :) ).



about confession to Priest , i read that 2 people needs to confess to each other to remove the sin . But also heard that Priest don't confess to people who come to them . Can u explain the matter ? Thanks.
Reply

duskiness
04-26-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Why so many Christians use the story of Jesus's (p) forgiveness of a prostitute as an excuse to commit major sins like adultery & gayism ?


In minimum 3 forums , few Christians gave me that example . Even if it's true that Jesus (p) told people not to punish that sinner , he must not encourage her to continue the sin.

I feel sad that some or many Christians take this story to justify their sin. How they got that idea that hate the sin but not the sinners ( not the exact words ) mean Christians can commit sins intentionally day after day ? What role Churches play to remove this misconception ?
Hi Muslim Woman.
i never came across interpretation of this story as an excuse to commit sin. This story is not about justifying our sinful acts but about our relationship to other sinners. We usually quote this this whenever someone feels so good and so moral to pass judgements and punishment on others sinners. As Christians we believe that we are all sinners. There is the same weakness in us all, only the way it manifests itself is different. how can we condom others when we are (more or less) the same?
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Still we feel that we have right to say that some acts are good, some bad. But we can't "cast stones" on people who commit them. That is way we often quote St. Augustine saying: "Love the sinner and hate the sin". Notice that this is directive how we should behave towards sins of OTHERS and not ours.
Have mercy while speaking about shortcomings of others, be strict with yourself.
Reply

Malaikah
04-26-2007, 11:02 AM
yeah, but the qu'ran isn't very hard to memorize.. and it actually is pretty short. so i don't think it's hard for most muslims to understand the message :-o
500-600 pages is not hard to memorise?:eek: :rolleyes:
Reply

MustafaMc
04-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
500-600 pages is not hard to memorise?:eek: :rolleyes:
Yes, it is very difficult to do this. As a 46 year old American I find difficult to meomorize each Arabic verse of the Quran. I have computer programs whereby I can listen to a verse repeatedly, but I have to repeat it over and over again to get it to sink in. I have to also memorize the English translation so I will know what I am reciting in prayer.

If a Christian memorized a verse of the Bible most likely the words would be at least slightly different from someone else's memorization because there a so many translations into so many different languages. In contrast, when I recite the 7 verses of Al-Fatiha, any Muslim from anywhere in the world recites exactly the same.
Reply

duskiness
04-26-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
about confession to Priest , i read that 2 people needs to confess to each other to remove the sin . But also heard that Priest don't confess to people who come to them . Can u explain the matter ? Thanks.
Catholics believe we need confession to be absolved from sins. God is the only one who has power to forgive sins. We believe that in confession priests are there in place of God, that He is "using" them. Priests also confess themselves to other priests. Strictly speaking we don't confess to "normal" people. We are expected to ask for forgiveness also form people we did wrong (well everybody is....). When you say you are sorry, you usually confess something, don't you? We do the same.
Additionally we believe that our forgiveness is "based" on the fact that we forgive others -
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
if interested you can check:
wiki
if you are very, very interested:
catechism of RCC on confession
Reply

duskiness
04-26-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
500-600 pages is not hard to memorise?:eek: :rolleyes:
well compered to 1629 (with much smaller fonts and much more text per page) pages of prose :D
just joking :) Remembering Quran is impressive. I usually don't remember where i left my keys... :-[
Reply

Malaikah
04-26-2007, 01:06 PM
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
This reminds me of the verse in the Quran:

"...Let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you?..."
[24:22]
Reply

vpb
04-26-2007, 01:23 PM
I usually don't remember where i left my keys...
well, my friend when he started memorizing Qur'an, it would take long time to memorize a page in Qur'an, but now, it takes him 15 minutes to memorize a page of Qur'an, alhamdulilah. I want to say that the more you memorize the ability to memorize increases

well compered to 1629 (with much smaller fonts and much more text per page) pages of prose
just joking
well, 1629 pages in bible are different from 600 in Qur'an, bc in Qur'an u have also to remember how many tones you should keep when u say a word that has "vowels", then many rules over reading it and many other things, which makes it harder to memorize. but still people memorize it all. so it wouldn't be hard to memorize bible also.


Dr.Zakir naik knows by heart Quran, Bible, Hindism holy book ... :)
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-26-2007, 06:42 PM
[QUOTE=Muslim Woman;723334]


----are u talking about the English translation or Bible in its original language --Armanic (? ). Many Muslims believe rewards are only for reciting Quran ( in Arabic) & not the translation. Dad once told me when he was young & a translated book was published on Quran , many Muslims got angry .
well, the Bible never once states "if you read this you will be rewarded." but i'm assuming that anyone who does, reguardless of the language, as long as it's accurate, will be fine. the Bible isn't hard to translate though, like the qu'ran. arabic is still a baby language, and one word could mean 100 things, so it's very hard to translate th qu'ran, whereas the Bible.. not so much.

of course, any time you translate something you do loose some of the meaning, so it's definetely encouraged to learn the original languages. and at most Christian universities, they encourage you to take language classes and all.





-- I feel that at a same time , many people are becoming conscious about religion , what to know what is in a holy book .
yeah, that's definetely true.


:omg: :rollseyes


why ? why ? why ?

can u give me a single reason based on ur holy book why u think so ?
in my opinion, the Bible never condemns homosexuality. a lot of people say "well, what about God destroying Sodom?" and my response is from Ezeikel, where it clearly states WHY they destroyed the city..

49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

i tihink it's all about interperetation. and remember, not all Muslims think homosexuality is a sin either. i know a friend, very, very, very devout convert to islam. has the Bible and qu'ran memorized. knows like 12 different languages. so point being.. she's very smart. and she herself told me that she doesn't think homosexuality is a sin, but rather homosexual sex if it hurts society.





a typical Catholic is asked to have 4 things..

1. Bible
2. Catechism
3. Rosary
4. Crucifix


---- I guess , rosary is like tasbee ? ( sorry don't know the English word ). Say , if i want to utter Allah 100 times , i will count that with the help of tasbee ....rasary is something like that ?
as for is it like the tasbee.. in a way, yes. i think you will hear many Catholics say that they like the tasbee, and many Muslims say that they like the Rosary. they aren't similar at all, but nevertheless they are prayer beads.

as for how to prat the Rosary...
1. Make the Sign of the Cross and say the "Apostles' Creed."
2. Say the "Our Father."
3. Say three "Hail Marys."
4. Say the "Glory be to the Father."
5. Announce the First Mystery; then say the "Our Father."
6. Say ten "Hail Marys," while meditating on the Mystery.
7. Say the "Glory be to the Father."
8. Announce the Second Mystery; then say the "Our Father." Repeat 6 and 7 and continue with Third, Fourth and Fifth Mysteries in the same manner.

that's the traditional way of praying the rosary, and the most common. but many other prayers can be done with it too. :)




there are many different styles, designs, and so forth. there are rosary's made out of shells, rocks, beads, you name it. my rosary is blue, and it's really nice.

--how Catholics pray at home ?
it varies greatly. Catholics are usually supposed to pray when we wake up, go to sleep, the meals, and the Rosary every day, and also a reflection with God, where we mediate and talk to God for an hour or so lol. but most people don't do that.

i try and pray the Rosary every day, Pray before I go to sleep, pray whenever i have time and just meditate, show the sign of the cross before meals, and yeah.. lol


:rollseyes no wonder , many people fall asleep ....i read about it in Church Funnies ( take no offence , pl. I m sure , Christians wrote these ....Muslims are not supposed to know in details about all these inside the Church :) ).
lol i'm sure people do fall asleep lol

about confession to Priest , i read that 2 people needs to confess to each other to remove the sin . But also heard that Priest don't confess to people who come to them . Can u explain the matter ? Thanks.
i think that duskiness answered this well. We believe that only God has the power to forgive sins, but e believe that priests serve God and all.

Originally Posted by hemoo
okay a question to christians and jews :

how many people you know of your religion memorize the whole verses of the sacred Scripture of your religion?

so how many Jew you know memorize the torah in its original language ?

and how many christian you know memorize the whole Bible in its original revealed language ?

1. i know four or five people who have the Bible memorized.

i think that most Christians though don't have the Bible memorized, but know where to look for on issues and such. Like if you ask me "where does this talk about this" i could EASILY say verses right off my back and prolly sum them up, but i wouldn't know the exact verses work for word.

as for Jews.. well, i think that Jews take learning Hebrew more seriously then Muslims do about learning arabic. any religious Jew knows Hebrew. most Jewish sermons are in Hebrew too. and many Jews have the Torah memorized, and many others are like me, where we know where it talks about it and can sum it up, but we don't know the verses word for word.

as for Christians memorizing it in the original language.. prolly a few million. but certainly, most Christians don't. although many Christians are beginning to, including me :)
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-26-2007, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace ,
And peace to you as well.



--do Christians believe that if they read Bible , they will get rewards from God ?
I suppose some do. I think the knowledge we gain from reading the Bible is its own reward. The Bible makes only a few mentions of there being rewards in heaven, none of these (that I am aware of) have to do with memorizing scripture, but instead about how we live our lives in relationship with others.



---if Christians believe Bible is from God , why don't they care ?
I think Thirdwatch had it right. Not every who claims to be a Christian actually practices Christianity. Some are Christian in name only. I think all those who really are serious about their faith do care enough to read the Bible and learn what God wishes for them in their life. They may not all realize the importance of reading the whole of the scripture and may feel that that which they learn from simply attending worship and Sunday school is sufficient. That is probably because we in the church have not done our job well enough in challenging them to more serious study on their own, or they have tried, didn't understand much and gave up too quickly. Those are the two biggest reasons that I see that genuine Christians don't get into the word. Though I think maybe there is also a component of laziness, and think that it is something that only experts need to or can study -- though if they think the latter that would be false.



---i guess , it's true about many of us.....we learnt to get good marks or good job. It reminds me of a hadith : ( not the exact words ) : one sign before the last day is people will learn not to get knowledge but to get earthy benifits only.
Some things are common to human nature.



--:omg: who are those 2 % unfortunate people ? Must be Muslims :cry:
Having met a few of the 2%, they were people who came from socially & economically impoverished backgrounds. Often they had parents who had to work 2 & 3 jobs simply to keep food on the table, they got little parenting as a result, when in school were promoted even though they did not know the material, and often dropped out of school early and nobody followed-up on them. Star athletes have also been promoted like this and got all the way to college before someone realized they they couldn't read. Some had learning difficulties (like dyslexia) that were uncaught and yet they were smart enough to fake their way through school. And in a few cases they simply were raised in terrible conditions in isolated communities where they were the world just swept by their door and never made its way in, their parents kept away and kept them away from people so that it wasn't even known that there was a child who wasn't enrolled in school, at a young age they would enter adult society as a common laborer working for that day's pay in cash and thus no one ever realized that the person could not read.


Many Muslims don't read Quran because they can't read +o(
It's sad when anyone in a literate culture does not have the opportunity to learn to read. It is a key to knowledge and knowledge is a key to learning about God and success in life.



---those who are highly educated , it's expected that they read outside their syllabus , too. If they read so many books , how come they don't their own holy books ?

I m not telling this about Christians only , many Muslims also read Quran occasionally. 2 reasons they give :

1- they recite from Quran ( it's a must ) in prayers .

2. accidently /unwillingly they don't want to show disrespect to Quran. So , they wraaped Quran in a beautiful cloth & put in the highest place in the room i.e top of the Almirah . LOL.
I think that is basically the same question I already answered above: "-if Christians believe Bible is from God , why don't they care ?" But truthfully, in the USA, just because a person is literate, even highly educated, doesn't mean that he/she reads lots of books. I have a masters degree and then a little more, but I rarely sit down to just read a book --I spend too much time answering questions on the internet. :-[ The USA has the highest reading literacy rate of any nation in the world, but the vast majority of our society won't complete even 1 book this year. We've become a visual society.



--- i think, i asked this question earlier ...don't remember the answer. Why so many Christians use the story of Jesus's (p) forgiveness of a prostitute as an excuse to commit major sins like adultery & gayism ?


In minimum 3 forums , few Christians gave me that example . Even if it's true that Jesus (p) told people not to punish that sinner , he must not encourage her to continue the sin.

I feel sad that some or many Christians take this story to justify their sin. How they got that idea that hate the sin but not the sinners ( not the exact words ) mean Christians can commit sins intentionally day after day ? What role Churches play to remove this misconception ?

If this is off topic here , may be u can reply in the answer by Christian thread.
I think duskiness address this well. Though I would have to admit that I have heard a few people who used stories like this to excuse themselves to do that which they knew was a sin -- not necessarilu adultery, but one could apply it to virtually any sin. Still, when we in the church read the story, I am sure that everyone who reads it also reads the last line: "go and sin no more". The church does not tell this story to grant people permission to sin. We tell this story to remind people that forgiveness exists when one has sinned. Of course, there are always people who will hear what they want to hear in almost any conversation, even if that is not what was said.


I will read rest of ur post Insha Allah later .

thanks for ur patience....u were learnt to be patient as a part of ur job ? :)
If only my wife thought I was patient. :-[
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-26-2007, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by hemoo
okay a question to christians and jews :

how many people you know of your religion memorize the whole verses of the sacred Scripture of your religion?

so how many Jew you know memorize the torah in its original language ?

and how many christian you know memorize the whole Bible in its original revealed language ?

I don't personally know of, or even heard of anyone who has memorized the whole Bible in its original language. That would require knowing Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Also, unless one speaks those languages there really isn't much point to it.

Remember, for the Christian, it is generally considered sufficient for a person to study the Bible in their native tongue and trust the work of those who have done the work of translating. Of course, it is better if you have studied sufficiently to be able to read and interpret (not just recite) the scripture in the original languages, but few other than clergy and scholars would do this. I myself, a pastor, only speak Greek not Hebrew and while I may read and study the Bible (or the New Testament at least) in Greek, I do all of my memory work in English (and sometimes Spanish) because these are the languages I speak in normal conversation.

For the Christian, application is more important than recitation. So, memorizing the scriptures in their original languages merely to be able to say the words would seem pointless. One could easily pick up a book from which to read it, if that was all one wanted to do. But if one wants to meditate on the verse and consider how they apply to one's life, that seems best done in the language that one speaks and thinks in living out one's daily life. So, it is that all those who I know that take the time to memorize the Bible do so in their native tongues.
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, it is very difficult to do this [memorize the Quran]. As a 46 year old American I find difficult to meomorize each Arabic verse of the Quran. I have computer programs whereby I can listen to a verse repeatedly, but I have to repeat it over and over again to get it to sink in. I have to also memorize the English translation so I will know what I am reciting in prayer.

If a Christian memorized a verse of the Bible most likely the words would be at least slightly different from someone else's memorization because there a so many translations into so many different languages. In contrast, when I recite the 7 verses of Al-Fatiha, any Muslim from anywhere in the world recites exactly the same.
Personally, I applaude the efforts of Muslims to memorize their scriptures. Whether it was 4 pages or 1600 pages, easy or difficult, is not the point. The point to me seems to be that it is a declaration of how important they are to one in the living out of and the practicing of one's faith. I wish that more Christians would take the time to memorize more.

Yes, you are right that we might have use different words. Some would memorize in Spanish, some in English, some in Russian, and still others in Chinese. And as you said, even among English speakers, there might be anyone of several different translations used -- though I don't think of that as a big problem. I am slightly envious of you Muslims who can all cite the same verse in Arabic. Of course, that wouldn't do me any good even if I was a Muslim, as I don't speak Arabic. Nonetheless, I still applaude you for the willingness of so many to learn a language they do not know, simply so that you may have the one thing in common in your faith. Christians have only a few words that we all speak in common: maranatha, hallelujah, and amen.
Reply

Pygoscelis
04-27-2007, 12:24 AM
I agree that if I met a random muslim I'd expect them to have some parts of the Quran memorized, and certainly to have read the book. If I ran into a random christian I'd doubt that they'd have read more than the gospels, if that.

I am confident that I know more about the bible than the average Christian. ANd I don't think that is saying much at all.
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-27-2007, 02:35 AM


Salaam/peace ,



Originally Posted by duskiness
..... Priests also confess themselves to other priests.


--but that specific verse tells that confession should be 2 way. If priests don't confess to u , then how it fulfils the condition ?

while confession , do Christian need to promise that they won't repeat the sin ?

If one is not sorry about the sin & has intention to do the same sin/mistake again , will his/her confession will be accepted if the priest assures that God will forgive u ?

I read that in the past , Pope gave written guaranty that certain Christians will go to heaven ...is that true ?



if interested you can check:
wiki
if you are very, very interested:
catechism of RCC on confession[/QUOTE]


--thanks for the link , Insha Allah , i will visit :statisfie



Reply

MustafaMc
04-27-2007, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Nonetheless, I still applaude you for the willingness of so many to learn a language they do not know, simply so that you may have the one thing in common in your faith. Christians have only a few words that we all speak in common: maranatha, hallelujah, and amen.
Actually, we learn the Arabic because some of the meaning is lost in the translation to another language. To me the miracle of the Quran is that it has been preserved intact, word-for-word, letter-by-letter as recited by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Every Muslim recites the Surah Al-Fatiha exactly as recited by the Prophet. It is obvious that since Jesus (pbuh) did not speak English, he did not actually say, "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name...", even though he may have said something similar.
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-27-2007, 02:56 AM


Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Actually, we learn the Arabic because some of the meaning is lost in the translation....
want to add something : as it's a must to recite from Quran in daily prayers , we need to learn/memorised few chapters from Quran.

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Grace Seeker
04-27-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I agree that if I met a random muslim I'd expect them to have some parts of the Quran memorized, and certainly to have read the book. If I ran into a random christian I'd doubt that they'd have read more than the gospels, if that.

I am confident that I know more about the bible than the average Christian. ANd I don't think that is saying much at all.

I find it interesting how the average Christian becomes more and more likely to be not just nominal, but active and seriously involved in personal Bible study the farther south one goes in the USA. I see that you live in Canada, just from a cursory look based on a few visits to your lovely country, it seems that Canadians might (in general) be even less religious than folks in the northern parts of the USA. That might have a bearing on your experience in running into random Christians. Try the same experiment in Plains, Georgia and I think you would get a different result.
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Pygoscelis
04-27-2007, 06:59 PM
You are correct that Canada is in general less religious than northern USA

However, being an outspoken christian and having read the bible and knowing it are two differnt things.

I have done this experiment online, with people who claim to be southern baptists even, and have found them lacking in ther knowledge of their own holy book. They know the gospels, some highlights from the OT (like noah and adam and eve and job) and they know parts of revelations. They often don't know much else.
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thirdwatch512
04-27-2007, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
You are correct that Canada is in general less religious than northern USA

However, being an outspoken christian and having read the bible and knowing it are two differnt things.

I have done this experiment online, with people who claim to be southern baptists even, and have found them lacking in ther knowledge of their own holy book. They know the gospels, some highlights from the OT (like noah and adam and eve and job) and they know parts of revelations. They often don't know much else.
haha i know what you mean. on youtube, there was a member who recently converted to islam, and shared his story on audio. he said that he was formerly a very religious christian, and that he took his Faith very seriously. then, he said that he read the Bible, and changed his mind. so he says he took his Faith seriously, yet he hadn't even read the Bible!!!! what a double standard!!

and i tell fellow Christians all the time that I have read the Bible several times, and they're all like "the whole thing!" and these are people who I go to Church with, and who are religious people!! and they haven't even read the whole Bible!! ridiculous!!!! personally, I think that before any Catholic (that's my denomination) can be confirmed in the Church, they should have to read the entire Bible first. it is only understandable there are so many ignorant Christians lol

Jews typically read the Torah at least once a month, and read the entire Tanakh all the time. lots of muslims read the qu'ran once a month or something. yet my fellow Christian friends don't even read their Bible!! now reading the entire Bible.. yeah, it would be impossible to read that in an entire month. it would take at least a year. but someone could read Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John within a month. and it's not about reading the entire Bible in a certain time as much as it is about just simply reading the Bible, and at least striving to read the entire Book. then people say "it's too long for me to read" and i just simply say "if you won't read the Bible because it's too long, then you obviously don't love God enough, so why do you even call yourself a Christian? lol, but i typically don't tell them that, but i think it in my head. but only God can judge that.
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جوري
04-27-2007, 11:15 PM
there are 114 chapters 6236 verses in the Quran whilst there are 260 chapters 7958 verses in the NT... go ahead and confirm that for yourself... So I fail to see why it should take years to read the NT whereas the Quran or the OT can be covered in a shorter span of time say a (month)?... it is also one thing to read the book and a whole other thing to discern and understand what you are reading...

I can cover Marker a 672 page book by Robin Cook in as much time as it took me to board from London Heathrow to New York JFK, and it will be satisfactory read--whereas a comparable book in thickness--like Wheater's Functional Histology (413 pages) slightly less page wise ( would take me 3 months to read-- & a life time's experience to implement and become familiar with its contents as relates to my every day needs-- and maybe even supplement it with Robbins Review of Pathology) for the whole picture to be adequate! .... compare that analogy to reading the Quran before stating, look at the double standards of that convert :rollseyes

The Quran isn't about reading parables, and having a strict or loose interpretation every century as per whims; The Quran is about implementing morality into your every day, and supplementing with the hadiths.. it is in fact a way of life.. a Constant as it has been since first revealed. I will not turn this into another ugly debate... I am glad you love Christianity but stop these infantile & obscene comparisons ... You are not in every household to see who has learned what or who has converted due to what reasons.

Enough!...


peace
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-28-2007, 01:01 AM


Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
.... he says he took his Faith seriously, yet he hadn't even read the Bible!!!! what a double standard!!.

to be a Christian , it's not a must to read the whole Bible including OT. At least , that what i understood from various posts.

So , if a Christian goes to Church regularly , reads selected parts of Bible daily , does nt commit any major sins ......is it ok for him /her to claim that s/he took faith seriously ?
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Fr0mHim
04-28-2007, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace ,





to be a Christian , it's not a must to read the whole Bible including OT. At least , that what i understood from various posts.

So , if a Christian goes to Church regularly , reads selected parts of Bible daily , does nt commit any major sins ......is it ok for him /her to claim that s/he took faith seriously ?

I would say yeah/and no. it doesn't matter about how much you attend church or if you read the Bible regularly... its the heart that needs to be checked... I guess if you say he attends Church regularly and does not have the decipline to read the Bible and Pray as much as he probally should... then I would have to go with I can't tell... since I honestly dont know his heart.. but if the person you are describing is me... then I honestly still can't tell since its hard to recognize my heart and my perpose at times.. I take my faith very seriously... I just dont have the discipline to read the Bible all the time... though when I do I enjoy it a lot.. but its something that I have to force myself to read... I would call it a dose of APATHY... since life troubles has caused it.. but its still something that both I and the Lord is working..
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thirdwatch512
04-28-2007, 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace ,





to be a Christian , it's not a must to read the whole Bible including OT. At least , that what i understood from various posts.

So , if a Christian goes to Church regularly , reads selected parts of Bible daily , does nt commit any major sins ......is it ok for him /her to claim that s/he took faith seriously ?
there are some Churches out there that teach only the NT.. which is just ridiculous. how can someone call themselves a Christian and not read about the events at Sinai, the parting of the Red Sea, Noah's Ark, and so forth! if one doesn't read the OT, they miss sooo much.

if they go to Chruch regularly, and read those parts of the Bible at Church, then yes, that's great, and salut to them. but Worship doesn't stop after Church. people should read the Bible daily. God should be in our lives daily. not just for an hour a week! so yeah, one could be a Christian and jsut read the Bible at Church, but in my opinion, they seem to only go to Church because they feel they should or something, but not because they love God to a great extent.

that's one thing i like about the Catholic Church.. we have Mass daily. Church isn't just on one specific day. granted, Sunday is more important, and we have an extra reading on Sunday, but we still can go to Mass daily.
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
there are 114 chapters 6236 verses in the Quran whilst there are 260 chapters 7958 verses in the NT... go ahead and confirm that for yourself... So I fail to see why it should take years to read the NT whereas the Quran or the OT can be covered in a shorter span of time say a (month)?... it is also one thing to read the book and a whole other thing to discern and understand what you are reading...

I can cover Marker a 672 page book by Robin Cook in as much time as it took me to board from London Heathrow to New York JFK, and it will be satisfactory read--whereas a comparable book in thickness--like Wheater's Functional Histology (413 pages) slightly less page wise ( would take me 3 months to read-- & a life time's experience to implement and become familiar with its contents as relates to my every day needs-- and maybe even supplement it with Robbins Review of Pathology) for the whole picture to be adequate! .... compare that analogy to reading the Quran before stating, look at the double standards of that convert :rollseyes

The Quran isn't about reading parables, and having a strict or loose interpretation every century as per whims; The Quran is about implementing morality into your every day, and supplementing with the hadiths.. it is in fact a way of life.. a Constant as it has been since first revealed. I will not turn this into another ugly debate... I am glad you love Christianity but stop these infantile & obscene comparisons ... You are not in every household to see who has learned what or who has converted due to what reasons.

Enough!...


peace
i wasn't saying about just reading the entire NT.. because i could read all the NT in 2 days if i tried. I'm talking about the ENTIRE BIBLE. hah, i actually think Psalms alone is bigger then the NT, although i can't confirm that lol.

the views on the qu'ran has changed over time too btw.. islam used to be a much more spiritual religion rather then literal as it is today. although I think mohammad was literal (we can see that many times), Islam for a long, long period of time was a very spiritual, even mystial religion. not for nothing, but i would prefer the islam of the 11th century over the Islam today. but then again, i would prefer Christianity from the 1st or 2nd centuries then i would today too.
Reply

Grace Seeker
04-28-2007, 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
there are 114 chapters 6236 verses in the Quran whilst there are 260 chapters 7958 verses in the NT... go ahead and confirm that for yourself... So I fail to see why it should take years to read the NT whereas the Quran or the OT can be covered in a shorter span of time say a (month)?... it is also one thing to read the book and a whole other thing to discern and understand what you are reading...

I can cover Marker a 672 page book by Robin Cook in as much time as it took me to board from London Heathrow to New York JFK, and it will be satisfactory read--whereas a comparable book in thickness--like Wheater's Functional Histology (413 pages) slightly less page wise ( would take me 3 months to read-- & a life time's experience to implement and become familiar with its contents as relates to my every day needs-- and maybe even supplement it with Robbins Review of Pathology) for the whole picture to be adequate! .... compare that analogy to reading the Quran before stating, look at the double standards of that convert :rollseyes

The Quran isn't about reading parables, and having a strict or loose interpretation every century as per whims; The Quran is about implementing morality into your every day, and supplementing with the hadiths.. it is in fact a way of life.. a Constant as it has been since first revealed. I will not turn this into another ugly debate... I am glad you love Christianity but stop these infantile & obscene comparisons ... You are not in every household to see who has learned what or who has converted due to what reasons.

Enough!...


peace

As you say, different types of material will be read at different speeds. Also, comparing numbers of chapters really doesn't tell one much. Some chapters are but a few lines, others might be pages in length. So most of the ways people have suggested comparing what it takes to read the Bible vs. the Quran don't make much sense to me. However, I can say this. There isn't a book of the Bible which is so long that most people couldn't read the longest of them in less than two hours. I also understand that reading just 15 minutes a day for a year is considered enough to completely read the entire Bible in one year. I had a youth group do a Bible-read-a-thon as fund raiser once; as a group, they managed to completely read through the Bible in about 4 days.


Oh, and btw, the Christianity isn't about reading the Bible anymore than the Quran is about reading parables. Christianity is also about implementing morality from God into one's everyday life. That is what one is supposed to pick up on if one reads the Bible.
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Grace Seeker
04-28-2007, 04:38 PM
I got this article on Scripture Saturation in my mail today, and thought that some here might find it interesting.

A little-known monk living in the Egyptian desert at the end of the fourth century provided one of the most durable interpretive keys in the history of Bible study. The monk, named Nesteros, proposed that all of Holy Scripture is to be understood in four ways or "senses."

He explained this paradigm by examining the various meanings of "Jerusalem" in the Bible....
Some other thoughts taken from the article:

the ascetics of old, when they read the Bible, perceived it to be a divine word directed to them in the concrete circumstances of their relationship to the Lord. They would have been shocked to hear Scripture described in modern terms as a "record of God's word."


All Bible reading was perceived to be, of its very nature, a true proclamation of God's word.


Origen exhorted such Christians to go to the well of the Scriptures every day in order to draw the living water.


Without great ascetic effort, the Bible reader's understanding would remain at the level of the "letter," and we have it on good authority that "the letter kills" (Rom. 3:6). What was needed, then, was an ever deeper conversion of heart, a removal of the soul's veil, in order to disclose the inner Spirit of the Holy Scriptures (2 Cor. 3:12-4:6). Only the pure of heart could penetrate to this more profound level of biblical understanding, for only they can see God (Matt. 5:8).


Some monks literally learned the entire Bible "by heart," not only in the simple sense of memorizing it, but also in the richer sense of putting the whole content of the Scriptures into the treasury of his heart. Day by day, as he chanted the Psalms with his brothers in church, the monk's conversation with the Lord continued, employing God's own inspired expressions in order to speak to Him. Praying through the entire Book of Psalms in this way each week, as the Rule of St. Benedict required, the monk kneaded the leaven of the Psalter into his mind.



the monk of old avoided those dichotomies that have become such distractions in modern life, like the separation of worship from study (especially theological study!) and the alienation of prayer from moral striving. Such dichotomies are clearly neither necessary nor especially healthy.

Much has changed in the practice of Christians today from these monks of old. We might have lost more than we realize along the way.
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Hemoo
04-28-2007, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
1. i know four or five people who have the Bible memorized.

many Jews have the Torah memorized.

as for Christians memorizing it in the original language.. prolly a few million
do you have an evidence of what you said?

do you have recorded videos of those christians reciting the bible from their memorization?

or jews reciting the torah from their memorization?

or a contest between those memorizers?
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Muslim Woman
04-28-2007, 11:41 PM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by hemoo
[B].........or a contest
....

I never heard of Bible or Torah reciting contest from memory like we have on Quran each yr. .

I saw a video of 5 yrs. old Irani kid who is a Qurani Hafiz......Alhamdulillah .

It's really surprising how worldwide so many non-Arabs have Quran in hearts without even understanding the language .


I don't know if any non-Arab can recite the whole translation of the Quran in his/her own language.

It's hard to remember so many verses even in mother tongue while Allah made it possible for us to have Quran in memory :statisfie

so far , nobody posted any survey result about how much Muslims know about Quran ....eagerly waiting :)



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Muslim Woman
04-29-2007, 10:31 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by duskiness
Hi Muslim Woman.
i never came across interpretation of this story as an excuse to commit sin.

No , it was not the interpretation .....few gay Christians whom i met online mentioned this story to me.

i told them Bible does not approve of gayism & they must not take Jesus's (p) love as for granted & will expect that as Jesus (p) forgave that woman , all sinners if intentionally commit sins day after day will be forgiven.


This story is not about justifying our sinful acts but about our relationship to other sinners. We usually quote this this whenever someone feels so good and so moral to pass judgements and punishment on others sinners.


I know , it's up to God who will be forgiven but from our sides , should not we be careful not to commit sins ? If we don't punish sinners , then it will encourage them to spread the sins .


If Bible does not allow to punish the sinners , why so many punishments are mentioned there ?


As Christians we believe that we are all sinners. There is the same weakness in us all, only the way it manifests itself is different. how can we condom others when we are (more or less) the same?

-- those who commit sin intentionally & those who commit mistakes & repent sincerely......how these 2 people can be same ?


Have mercy while speaking about shortcomings of others, be strict with yourself.
--can u explain this comment , pl ?
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Grace Seeker
04-30-2007, 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

-- those who commit sin intentionally & those who commit mistakes & repent sincerely......how these 2 people can be same ?

They aren't. That is not what Duskiness was saying.
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yahia12
04-30-2007, 03:01 AM
Is it haram to read the bible?
Reply

thirdwatch512
04-30-2007, 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by Serdar
Is it haram to read the bible?
nope. i believe that Muslims are actually told to read the Injeel.
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Keltoi
04-30-2007, 03:50 AM
My grandmother read the Bible daily, for an hour or two each morning, and she could usually read the whole thing in less than a month.
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Muslim Woman
04-30-2007, 09:50 AM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Serdar
Is it haram to read the bible?

I don't think so . To get guidance , we will read Quran , for comparison purposes , I believe Muslims should read Torah , Bible , Hindus holy books .


If we don't read other holy books , how can we know about other religions or compare those with Quran ?

Media won't give u any clear idea ....I got ideas from media that only Quran has verses on war , polygamy , slavery etc.

So , after studying the Quran , i support Muslims reading other holy books.

P.S. it's not a fatwa......my personal opinion. :D




Reply

yahia12
04-30-2007, 02:14 PM
"you dont think so"? what if someone converts to christianity? :)

Any bible pages on interneT (the holy bible)?
Reply

Woodrow
04-30-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Serdar
"you dont think so"? what if someone converts to christianity? :)

Any bible pages on interneT (the holy bible)?
There are many. However most that I find are on sites that preach a doctrine contrary to Islam and for that reason as a mod I would delete the link to it. I would suggest to any Muslim desiring to read the Bible for reference and comparative purposes to either buy a copy at a book store or check it out at a local library.
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Muslim Woman
04-30-2007, 03:35 PM


Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Serdar
"you dont think so"? what if someone converts to christianity? :)
LOL , don't say that u r planning to do so +o(

That's why i suggested after reading/studying Quran , one will read other holy books.

In my case , reading other holy books strengthened my faith :statisfie .....Alhamdulillah.


I m sure , Insha Allah , it will happen to other Muslims , too.

Any bible pages on interneT (the holy bible)?[/QUOTE]

yes , a lot. It's better if Christians give u link. I don't know which one is a better translated one.



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Grace Seeker
04-30-2007, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
There are many. However most that I find are on sites that preach a doctrine contrary to Islam and for that reason as a mod I would delete the link to it. I would suggest to any Muslim desiring to read the Bible for reference and comparative purposes to either buy a copy at a book store or check it out at a local library.
http://www.biblegateway.com/ will give you access to the text of the Christian bible online without any commentary, and therefore without any articulated doctrine. Depending on your preference you can set it to search through bibles that do or do not include the deuterocanonical books that are included in Catholic and Greek Orthodox bibles, but are not included in Protestant bibles. In English you have access to dozens of different translations. You can also read the bible in the following languages:
العربية (AR)
Български (BG)
Kreyol (CPF)
Čeština (CS)
Dansk (DA)
Deutsch (DE)
English (EN)
Español (ES)
Français (FR)
Κοινη (GRC)
תירביע (HE)
Ilonggo (HIL)
Hrvatski (HR)
Magyar (HU)
Íslenska (IS)
Italiano (IT)
한국어 (KO)
Māori (MI)
Plautdietsch (NDS)
Nederlands (NL)
Norsk (NO)
Português (PT)
Română (RO)
Русский (RU)
Slovenčina (SK)
Shqip (SQ)
Svenska (SV)
Kiswahili (SW)
Tagalog (TL)
Tiêng Viêt (VI)
汉语 (ZH)

The interface language for the site is limited to either English or Spanish.


Now with so many choices available to you, you might be lost as to which one(s) you want to check out. I would give you some guidelines that I use in making my choice, but doing so might be seen as presenting doctrine, so I'll not put that on the open forum. Certainly PM me if you really have questions.
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Woodrow
04-30-2007, 03:52 PM
In addition to my statement above. Since many of our Members do not read English as their primary Language any Bible obtained in their own language will differ considerably from the English.

For example:

The First two lines of Genesis from the Arabic KJV Red letter version will read as:

1 في البدء خلق الله السموات والارض.
2 وكانت الارض خربة وخالية وعلى وجه الغمر ظلمة وروح الله يرف على وجه المياه.


The Arabic meaning of this translated back into English would be:

I start Allah created the heavens and the earth. 2 The land was in ruins and free immersion and in the bleak and the spirit of Allah blink in the water.

The KJV in English Reads:

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Different connotations will develop as a result of reading in different languages.

NOTE: I was busy writing my post and Grace Seeker got his post in before I finished. My post was not and is not intended to be a reply to his post.
Reply

Hemoo
05-08-2007, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I don't think so . To get guidance , we will read Quran , for comparison purposes , I believe Muslims should read Torah , Bible , Hindus holy books .

So , after studying the Quran , i support Muslims reading other holy books.

P.S. it's not a fatwa......my personal opinion. :D
here is the right Fatwa in this matter :
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22029&ln=eng

and the full text :

Ruling on reading the books of Ahl al-Kitaab and debating with them on the internet

Question:

My worry is the propogation of false notions about quran by some christians through internet.i even sent a mail to the so called muslim to christians about their fabricated stories.i want to know what should be our response regarding alkexander the great whom they say according to history died young at 33 and in koran it states that he died at a ripe old age.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to read the specious arguments that the Christians propagate on the internet or via other media, or to engage with them in religious disputes and debates, except for those who are qualified to do so, who have proof and evidence and who know how to present arguments. A number of scholars have stated that it is haraam to look at any of the books of the People of the Book, except for those who have deep knowledge, because we are commanded neither to believe nor disbelieve what they tell us about stories that are not present in our religion. There is no guarantee that the ordinary person who has no knowledge will not end up believing in falsehood and rejecting the truth. Moreover, man is weak and specious arguments may take root in the heart and it may be difficult to get rid of them. The following fatwa was issued by the Standing Committee:
“A great deal of distortion, addition and subtraction has befallen the previous divinely-revealed scriptures, as Allaah has stated, so it is not permissible for a Muslim to read them and study them, unless he is one who has deep knowledge and is seeking to explain the distortions and contradictions therein.” (3/311).
So whatever Christian books have come to you, you must hasten to get rid of them.
With regard to what you say about Alexander the Great, this is a specious argument which is indicative of the stupidity and ignorance of the Christians. We may respond to that from several angles, as follows:
1 – There is no mention in the Qur’aan of how long Dhu’l-Qarnayn (Alexander) lived, or of the era in which he lived.
2 – Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is not Alexander the Macedonian or Greek who built Alexandria. This Alexander is the one who died at the age of 33, as mentioned in the Christian books. He lived 323 years before the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan lived at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and it is said that he became Muslim at the hands of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and he went on pilgrimage to the Ka’bah walking. The scholars differed concerning him, as to whether he was a Prophet or a righteous slave and just king, but they agree that he was a Muslim, a monotheist (believer in Tawheed) and one who was obedient to Allaah.
The correct view is to refrain from stating what he was, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not know whether Tubba’ was a Prophet or not, and I do not know whether Dhu’l-Qarnayn was a Prophet or not.”
(Narrated by al-Haakim and al-Bayhaqi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5524).
3 – The difference between this righteous slave, and the Macedonian Alexander who was a kaafir, is well known to Muslim scholars. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Badaayah wa’l-Nahaayah (1/493):
“It was narrated that Qutaadah said: Alexander was Dhu’l-Qarnayn and his father was the first of the Caesars, and he was one of the descendants of Saam ibn Nooh (Shem the son of Noah). As for Dhu’l-Qarnayn, he was Alexander son of Philip… ibn Roomi ibn al-Asfar ibn Yaqaz ibn al-‘Ees ibn Ishaaq ibn Ibraaheem al-Khaleel. This is the genealogy of him given by al-Haafiz ibn ‘Asaakir in his Taareekh. (He is known as) the Macedonian, the Greek, the Egyptian, builder of Alexandria, on the events of whose life the Greeks based their calendar. He came much later than the first Alexander. This was approximately three hundred years before the Messiah. The philosopher Aristotle was his minister and he is the one who killed Daar ibn Daar (Darius) and humiliated the kings of Persia and invaded their land.
We have drawn attention to him because many people think that they are one and the same and that the one who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is the one whose minister was Aristotle, which has resulted in a lot of mistakes and far-reaching corruption. The former was a righteous believing slave and a just king, and the latter was a mushrik and his minister was a philosopher. There were more than two thousand years between the two, so what comparison can there be between them? They are not alike at all and they have nothing in common, except in the mind of a fool who does not know anything.”
4 – The Christians have no information in their holy book about the second Alexander, let alone the first. All they have is the story of the visions of Daniel, which they claim refer to the rule of this infidel Alexander, and the division of his kingdom after his death.
5 – If we assume that there is a difference between what the Qur’aan says and what their book says about a person or an event, why should that be regarded as strange? There are many such differences, especially in the stories of the Prophets such as Ibraaheem (Abraham), Nooh (Noah), Loot (Lot), Moosa (Moses), Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) (peace be upon them). The Christians have no reliable and continuous chain of narration for this book in which they believe, and they know nothing about those who translated it. Moreover it contains dozens of contradictions which effectively nullify any claim to infallibility or to have been written with inspiration from the Holy Spirit. It is sufficient to note the contradictions in the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him)!
So how can we take what is in these distorted books as a standard by which to judge the Holy Qur’aan which is preserved by Allaah?!
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Naturally as Muslims we are much more knowledgeable in the Qur'an, than most Christians are in the Bible. The majority of us will read the Qur'an at least once a month. I believe most of us read at least one Juz a day, so in 30 days we have read the entire Qur'an and we read it 12 times a year. Even those of us who are too buzy to read a Juz a day will read 1 or 2 Surahs each day. We all recite at least one surah (al-Fatihah) 5 times a day. The Qur'an is a much more important part of our daily worship, then the Bible is for Christian Worship.


I would also say that more Muslims are knowledgeable in the Bible than the number of Christians. Several reasons for me to say that, because we are commanded to read and learn, many Muslims have read the Bible several times. Here in the US I would say that most Muslims do have at least one Bible in their home and many have several versions. One reason is because we know that at various times we will be appraoched by Evangelicals and we choose to understand what they are talking about. Also many Muslims in the US are reverts and have had exposure to the Bible. I would say that a Christian with good knowledge of the Bible is more likely to revert, than a person with little knowledge. Often You will hear Christian reverts say they met Jesus(as) in the Bible, but did not know or really Love him the way he should be loved, until they came to Islam. Many Muslim reverts will say that they are more of a true Christian in Islam than they were in Christianity.

Many reverts from Christianity were very devout Christians at one time, many were Evangelicals or ministers. But many of them will say that they never really understood the Bible until they accepted Islam.

So I would say more Muslims, have knowledge of the Bible than the number of Christians do. At least for here in the US.
Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by hemoo
here is the right Fatwa in this matter :
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=22029&ln=eng

and the full text :

Ruling on reading the books of Ahl al-Kitaab and debating with them on the internet

Question:

My worry is the propogation of false notions about quran by some christians through internet.i even sent a mail to the so called muslim to christians about their fabricated stories.i want to know what should be our response regarding alkexander the great whom they say according to history died young at 33 and in koran it states that he died at a ripe old age.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to read the specious arguments that the Christians propagate on the internet or via other media, or to engage with them in religious disputes and debates, except for those who are qualified to do so, who have proof and evidence and who know how to present arguments. A number of scholars have stated that it is haraam to look at any of the books of the People of the Book, except for those who have deep knowledge, because we are commanded neither to believe nor disbelieve what they tell us about stories that are not present in our religion. There is no guarantee that the ordinary person who has no knowledge will not end up believing in falsehood and rejecting the truth. Moreover, man is weak and specious arguments may take root in the heart and it may be difficult to get rid of them. The following fatwa was issued by the Standing Committee:
“A great deal of distortion, addition and subtraction has befallen the previous divinely-revealed scriptures, as Allaah has stated, so it is not permissible for a Muslim to read them and study them, unless he is one who has deep knowledge and is seeking to explain the distortions and contradictions therein.” (3/311).
So whatever Christian books have come to you, you must hasten to get rid of them.
With regard to what you say about Alexander the Great, this is a specious argument which is indicative of the stupidity and ignorance of the Christians. We may respond to that from several angles, as follows:
1 – There is no mention in the Qur’aan of how long Dhu’l-Qarnayn (Alexander) lived, or of the era in which he lived.
2 – Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is not Alexander the Macedonian or Greek who built Alexandria. This Alexander is the one who died at the age of 33, as mentioned in the Christian books. He lived 323 years before the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him).
Dhu’l-Qarnayn who is mentioned in the Qur’aan lived at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and it is said that he became Muslim at the hands of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), and he went on pilgrimage to the Ka’bah walking. The scholars differed concerning him, as to whether he was a Prophet or a righteous slave and just king, but they agree that he was a Muslim, a monotheist (believer in Tawheed) and one who was obedient to Allaah.
The correct view is to refrain from stating what he was, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not know whether Tubba’ was a Prophet or not, and I do not know whether Dhu’l-Qarnayn was a Prophet or not.”
(Narrated by al-Haakim and al-Bayhaqi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5524).
3 – The difference between this righteous slave, and the Macedonian Alexander who was a kaafir, is well known to Muslim scholars. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Badaayah wa’l-Nahaayah (1/493):
“It was narrated that Qutaadah said: Alexander was Dhu’l-Qarnayn and his father was the first of the Caesars, and he was one of the descendants of Saam ibn Nooh (Shem the son of Noah). As for Dhu’l-Qarnayn, he was Alexander son of Philip… ibn Roomi ibn al-Asfar ibn Yaqaz ibn al-‘Ees ibn Ishaaq ibn Ibraaheem al-Khaleel. This is the genealogy of him given by al-Haafiz ibn ‘Asaakir in his Taareekh. (He is known as) the Macedonian, the Greek, the Egyptian, builder of Alexandria, on the events of whose life the Greeks based their calendar. He came much later than the first Alexander. This was approximately three hundred years before the Messiah. The philosopher Aristotle was his minister and he is the one who killed Daar ibn Daar (Darius) and humiliated the kings of Persia and invaded their land.
We have drawn attention to him because many people think that they are one and the same and that the one who is mentioned in the Qur’aan is the one whose minister was Aristotle, which has resulted in a lot of mistakes and far-reaching corruption. The former was a righteous believing slave and a just king, and the latter was a mushrik and his minister was a philosopher. There were more than two thousand years between the two, so what comparison can there be between them? They are not alike at all and they have nothing in common, except in the mind of a fool who does not know anything.”
4 – The Christians have no information in their holy book about the second Alexander, let alone the first. All they have is the story of the visions of Daniel, which they claim refer to the rule of this infidel Alexander, and the division of his kingdom after his death.
5 – If we assume that there is a difference between what the Qur’aan says and what their book says about a person or an event, why should that be regarded as strange? There are many such differences, especially in the stories of the Prophets such as Ibraaheem (Abraham), Nooh (Noah), Loot (Lot), Moosa (Moses), Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) (peace be upon them). The Christians have no reliable and continuous chain of narration for this book in which they believe, and they know nothing about those who translated it. Moreover it contains dozens of contradictions which effectively nullify any claim to infallibility or to have been written with inspiration from the Holy Spirit. It is sufficient to note the contradictions in the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him)!
So how can we take what is in these distorted books as a standard by which to judge the Holy Qur’aan which is preserved by Allaah?!
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to knowledge, and you shouldn't swear. God does not delight in that. Jesus is the one that said let your yes be just that (Yes) and your no be no anything more than that comes from evil.
Reply

Philosopher
05-10-2007, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

That's just two that came up in mind instantly.
Reply

Philosopher
05-10-2007, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to knowledge, and you shouldn't swear. God does not delight in that. Jesus is the one that said let your yes be just that (Yes) and your no be no anything more than that comes from evil.
Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.
I can understand your feeling like that. I can remember a time when I also felt like that and said very similar words either to or about people who left Christianity.

I do not love Christ(as) any less than I did as a Christian, I firmly believe it was the love of Christ(as) that helped lead me to Islam. As a Muslim I learned to love Christ(as) even more and learned to worship God(swt).

A true follower of Christ(as) and a True Christian worships God(as) alone and has no need for misconceptions.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
That is pretty impressive to say the least. It really blows my mind in a way, but not totally, because I sincerely believe that is possible to be a preacher and teacher of the Scriptures and not know the Lord. Look at those Jewish leaders during the time of Christ they were zealots who were a chosen people by God and didn't even know Him. People will one day say like Jesus said people will one day do: “But Lord didn't we do many great things in your name and He will respond, "I never knew you depart from ME."
It is written, “To know Him is to have eternal life” He that has the Son has life; He that has not the Son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on Him!!!!”
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can understand your feeling like that. I can remember a time when I also felt like that and said very similar words either to or about people who left Christianity.

I do not love Christ(as) any less than I did as a Christian, I firmly believe it was the love of Christ(as) that helped lead me to Islam. As a Muslim I learned to love Christ(as) even more and learned to worship God(swt).

A true follower of Christ(as) and a True Christian worships God(as) alone and has no need for misconceptions.
I can't gainsay your testimony, but I can tell you that you never knew Him the way I do now, and you don't know Him the way I do! We know two different Jesus' bro.
Peace
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.
OK, I have mentioned this in another thread, but it fits your statement.
It is not in tune with logic -- I'll give you that!!

BUT

I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do using logic. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor do I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth as His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. The Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ there are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is.
Reply

Hemoo
05-10-2007, 04:53 AM
alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:

In the new testament in John it says that jesus said :


017:003 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


and another verse states that the knowledge of jesus is not like the knowledge of God and this means that they are not the same person.

In the new testament in Mark it says that jesus said :


013:032 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

another translation :

(OF the Day none knows, no man, no Son but the Father.)


you know that the arabic language is similar to the aramia and hebrew because those languages has similar origins.

in arabic we say that Allah is the "RAB" means the lord but sometimes we also say for the father in a family he is the "RAB" of the Family because he is the one who get the money and food and clothes, etc

so it seems that the original meaning of the bible was lost in translation.

i hope you get what i mean.

After EDIT:

in the NT in Luke:

018:018 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

018:019 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


so this means that jesus is not GOD, the verses clearly shows that they are not the same person.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-10-2007, 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by hemoo
alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:
OK, the verse you are referencing is:
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)
If I may, I would like to comment on this verse a little bit.

First, the least important part, it says that Jesus Christ is sent by God. It doesn't say that he was sent as a messenger. Indeed, given that the title Christ is used, it is more likely to a reference to Jesus being sent as the Messiah. Messiah is one anointed by God for a special purpose. What special purpose was Jesus anointed by God for. He tells us himself:
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. (Luke 19:10)
Now the phrase "Son of Man" is also a title for the Messiah, so this explanation fits the question as to what purpose Christ came. He came not as a messenger, but as a Savior.

Second, in saying that eternal life is in knowing God and Jesus Christ, given that we have a single verb and a compound object, then the knowing must be applied to both God and to Jesus Christ in the same way.

The Greek word, "to know", used in this instance is ginosko. Now knowledge of God in scripture is always linked with self-revelation. And the special way that John (the author of the verse you quoted0 used the term was to express a personal relationship between the knower and the one known. So, in this prayer, Jesus is praying that those he is praying for would know both him and God in a personal way, one that involved a continuous relationship. Now, since this prayer was specifically prayed not just for Jesus' disciples, but those who would come to believe as they did (after Jesus was gone), how could Jesus expect these people who would never meet him to have this personal relationship with them unless he was going to still be around in some sort of way that they could have a real relationship with him. For this is not just to know information about Jesus. It is to be knowledge gained through personal contact and fellowship. That can only happen if still today Christ's new disciples can have the same sort of connection with him that his first disciples did. That means that Jesus must not only still be alive in heaven, but that he must still be in fellowship with his followers on earth. Now unless Jesus is God, the only way that we could still be in fellowship with Jesus in the same way that we are in fellowship with and know God would be if Jesus was a partner with God. Now, that obviously is not something that either Muslims nor Christians believe. Thus the only option left for us is for us to accept the belief that God and Jesus are one in the same. Then knowing Jesus would be knowing God and vice versa, and eliminating the problem presented by the verse as you originally presented it.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-10-2007, 10:57 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Philosopher

there are lots ...let me know if u want more :p




Biography Of Professor David Benjamin Keldani, B.D. (died 1940c) Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean

......And in 1904 he was sent by the British and Foreign Unitarian Association to carry on an educational and enlightening work among his country people.

On his way to Persia he visited Constantinople; and after several interviews with the Sheikhu 'I-Islam Jemalu 'd-Din Effendi and other Ulemas, he embraced the Holy Religion of Islam, meaning submission to God


http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/bio_keldani.html
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I have done this experiment online, with people who claim to be southern baptists even, and have found them lacking in ther knowledge of their own holy book. They know the gospels, some highlights from the OT (like noah and adam and eve and job) and they know parts of revelations. They often don't know much else.
That's the key message though, the story is clear whoever goes on the chat room or lives in a well populated christian area knows it.

Adam and Eve Sinned, God cursed them, he saved Noah and destroyed the sinners, (I dont know what Job has to do with it, I hardly hear it mentioned by them) but OT highlights include: The Bronze Serpent that Moses Lifted was a prediction of Jesus, or, al the blood sacrafises and lambs of God, or Psalms or Isaiah, and then finishing with the Gospels, although they probably quote paul from the begging 'The wages of sin is death' and 'for as sin entered through one man..'

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
nope. i believe that Muslims are actually told to read the Injeel.
Serious? Where?

News Flash:

I can save yall time in reading the Bible, if yall read the KJV then I think that there are about 37 duplicate verses in II Kings 19 and Isaiah 37.

2 Kings 19

1 When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the LORD.

Isaiah 37

1 When King Hezekiah heard this, he tore his clothes and put on sackcloth and went into the temple of the LORD.

2 Kings 19

2 He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz.

Isaiah 37

2 He sent Eliakim the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and the leading priests, all wearing sackcloth, to the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz.

2 Kings 19

3 They told him, "This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them.

Isaiah 37

3 They told him, "This is what Hezekiah says: This day is a day of distress and rebuke and disgrace, as when children come to the point of birth and there is no strength to deliver them.

And so forth.
Reply

Redeemed
05-11-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by hemoo
alapiana1

look to this verse in your book, it is really obvious that it says that there is only one God and Jesus is a messenger sent by God:

In the new testament in John it says that jesus said :


017:003 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

and another verse states that the knowledge of jesus is not like the knowledge of God and this means that they are not the same person.

In the new testament in Mark it says that jesus said :


013:032 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

another translation :

(OF the Day none knows, no man, no Son but the Father.)


you know that the arabic language is similar to the aramia and hebrew because those languages has similar origins.

in arabic we say that Allah is the "RAB" means the lord but sometimes we also say for the father in a family he is the "RAB" of the Family because he is the one who get the money and food and clothes, etc

so it seems that the original meaning of the bible was lost in translation.

i hope you get what i mean.
OK, You'll get no argument from me about there being one God!
Reply

thirdwatch512
05-20-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Serdar
"you dont think so"? what if someone converts to christianity? :)

Any bible pages on interneT (the holy bible)?
biblegateway.com is my favorite. or you can download e-Sword.. with e-Sword, you can customize it to show maps, have commentary, you can highlight, and download dozens of different versions, and in different languages.

as for if someone converts to Christianity.. many people leave islam! that's life. many people leave and join different religions all the time.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
Trust me them reverts you are talking about are the ones who don't study the Bible. They are the ones that know about Christ, but they don't know Him. When someone has a relationship (not religion) with Christ, they would never revert, but I wouldn't dare say that about any other religion reverting to being a follower of Christ.
i can agree with that 100%. any time i watch on youtube a story of a convert to islam, the vast majority of them say that they never were reluigious, or they never took their faith seriously.
Originally Posted by Philosopher
you know, there are some people who seemed devout, and who left Christianity. but there are also many former devout muslims that are Christians! Zakariah Boutous is one of them i can name off my back!

plus, the Bible addresses this..
Mark 13:22-23 - 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Mat 24:24 False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work spectacular, miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, even those whom God has chosen.

Originally Posted by Philosopher
Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.
here you go with the trinity rant again.. ugh..
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-20-2007, 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Unless you can prove how the Trinity is in tune with logic, I dont think it's fair to take your view on religion seriously.


To describe something that one observes is neither an attempt at logic or illogic. So the Trinity is not something that one proves anymore than one proves a sunset. One observes it. One describes what one sees. If you are standing on the other side of the earth and observe a sunrise and argue that it can't possibly be a sunset, well then that's your problem. I can't prove it to you, and can only describe what I observe. And I observe that God, though just one divine being, has indeed revealed himself in three persons. I can't explain how it works, I certainly can't prove it to one who doesn't even believe in the existence of God to begin with, but I can testify that this is what I have experienced to be true. Believe or don't believe me, that is your problem. My job is to testify to what I have observed and experienced, not to convince you or anyone else.
Reply

Redeemed
05-20-2007, 04:15 AM
The way I see it though is Jesus was born of a virgin not the prophet Muhammad; furthermore, Jesus died for my and your sin not Muhammad. It is explicitly stated by the spirit of God that some will depart from the faith and be deceived by lying spirits to abstain from eating certain things. I can infer that that would be Christians turning to other religions. The thing that I find annoying is that Muslims keep saying we Christians worship three Gods. I will not have to explain to God that I believe He is three, because I believe He is ONE. It is you who say I believe He is three not me. But if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (II Corn. 4) Jesus did die and rise again. To believe other than that is to believe a lie. Jesus is not an angel. He is exactly who He says He is (The I am). You don’t know if your saved, but I know that I am. The Jesus Muslims honor is not the same Jesus of the Bible. May you see Has God sees. I pray you do for a short time.
Reply

Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
The way I see it though is Jesus was born of a virgin not the prophet Muhammad; furthermore, Jesus died for my and your sin not Muhammad. It is explicitly stated by the spirit of God that some will depart from the faith and be deceived by lying spirits to abstain from eating certain things. I can infer that that would be Christians turning to other religions. The thing that I find annoying is that Muslims keep saying we Christians worship three Gods. I will not have to explain to God that I believe He is three, because I believe He is ONE. It is you who say I believe He is three not me. But if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (II Corn. 4) Jesus did die and rise again. To believe other than that is to believe a lie. Jesus is not an angel. He is exactly who He says He is (The I am). You don’t know if your saved, but I know that I am. The Jesus Muslims honor is not the same Jesus of the Bible. May you see Has God sees. I pray you do for a short time.
This is your belief and of course you are entitled to uphold such. But, it is not only the muslims that believe that christians believe in three gods, it is also the Jews and even Siks and Budists and even atheists. So such accusation is not only from the muslims. Saying that Jesus died for your sins is only your wishful thinking as there is nothing from the words of Jesus to back that up. Yes you will find the words of others to back that up but in any non christian faith their words bear no weight at all. You can not compare the miracles of prophets and decide who to follow as let's say for Moses the sea was opened up and such was not given to Jesus or any prophet. So what is the point of making such comparisons? Yes we do now that we are saved and your assumtion that we are not does not affect us at all even if this enrages you. And gues what: No one will ever enter paradise unless he is a muslim just like Jesus was and any other prophet. And yes Jesus did not die nor did he resurrect but was taken up in heaven and he will return and be with the muslims and marry and die and then be rresurrected just like everybody else. I only wish that you live long enough to see him come and then you will see who was right. Anyway even if you die, you will indeed see who will go to hell and who will go to paradise. So let's wait and see. To you your religion and to us our. If you do want to believe what you do then at least testify that we are muslims just like we testify that indeed you are christian.
Reply

Trumble
05-20-2007, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
But, it is not only the muslims that believe that christians believe in three gods, it is also the Jews and even Siks and Budists and even atheists. So such accusation is not only from the muslims.
Said on the basis of what? To me, as a non-Christian, the concept of the Trinity is both perfectly simple (three aspects of the same thing) and perfectly monotheistic. I was baffled once as to why muslims cannot understand it that way until realising it was just far more convenient for them not to bother to try.

If Christians believe they are worshipping one God then that is precisely what they are doing. What muslims, or anybody else, may think they are doing is totally irrelevant. It is as arrogant of muslims to lecture Christians on Christianity as it would be for Christians to lecture muslims on Islam.
Reply

Sunnih
05-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Said on the basis of what? To me, as a non-Christian, the concept of the Trinity is both perfectly simple (three aspects of the same thing) and perfectly monotheistic. I was baffled once as to why muslims cannot understand it that way until realising it was just far more convenient for them not to bother to try.

If Christians believe they are worshipping one God then that is precisely what they are doing. What muslims, or anybody else, may think they are doing is totally irrelevant. It is as arrogant of muslims to lecture Christians on Christianity as it would be for Christians to lecture muslims on Islam.
And also for Budhists to lecture both muslims and christians. Don't you see that you are just doing the same? Anyway as far as you perfectly understanding the trinity, then this shows that you too have no clue about monotheism.
Reply

Muslim Knight
05-20-2007, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Said on the basis of what? To me, as a non-Christian, the concept of the Trinity is both perfectly simple (three aspects of the same thing) and perfectly monotheistic. I was baffled once as to why muslims cannot understand it that way until realising it was just far more convenient for them not to bother to try.
I'll go tell my Hindu friends about this. They'd be happy at last their religion is now considered a monotheism by the Buddhists. When will you be sending the proposal to Muslim scholars to recognize them as People of the Book as well or should I?
Reply

Trumble
05-20-2007, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
And also for Budhists to lecture both muslims and christians. Don't you see that you are just doing the same?
No, because I am not. I neither 'lectured' Christians on Christianity or muslims on Islam. Please read more carefully.

Anyway as far as you perfectly understanding the trinity, then this shows that you too have no clue about monotheism.
I see, so because I disagree with you I "have no clue"? You see my point about arrogance? No doubt 2 billion or so Christians "have no clue" as to what they actually believe, either, whereas of course you do. BTW if you look again you will see that I said nothing about "perfectly understanding" anything, just that I find the Christian concept of the Trinity simple to understand in monotheistic terms.

Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
I'll go tell my Hindu friends about this. They'd be happy at last their religion is now considered a monotheism by the Buddhists. When will you be sending the proposal to Muslim scholars to recognize them as People of the Book as well or should I?
The Trinity is a particular theological concept unique to Christianity. It is not a general polytheistic catch-all and is not relevant to Hinduism.
Reply

Sunnih
05-20-2007, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
No, because I am not. I neither 'lectured' Christians on Christianity or muslims on Islam. Please read more carefully.



I see, so because I disagree with you I "have no clue"? You see my point about arrogance? No doubt 2 billion or so Christians "have no clue" as to what they actually believe, either, whereas of course you do. BTW if you look again you will I said nothing about "perfectly understanding" anything, just that I find the Christian concept of the Trinity simple to understand in monotheistic terms.



The Trinity is a particular theological concept unique to Christianity. It is not a general polytheistic catch-all and is not relevant to Hinduism.
As for your saying it is clear in your own words: "I was baffled once as to why muslims cannot understand it that way until realising it was just far more convenient for them not to bother to try". This is deffinitely a lecture in two parts: 1) Christians are on the right path 2) Muslims are wrong in their understanding and follow convenience not facts. Perhaps you might want to read your own words more carefully. Or write more carefully so that you will not be understood differently to what you intended?

as far as clues about monotheism, then you should know that this is claimed by Jews, Muslims and Christians alike, they have the same prophets and the same source of revelation and gues what: Both Jews and Muslims consider Christians polytheists.

Your say that you find the Christian concept of the Trinity simple to understand in monotheistic terms carries no value as you understand polytheism only in terms of: "a general polytheistic catch-all and is not relevant to Hinduism". While this is wrong completely and uterly.
Reply

Keltoi
05-20-2007, 07:05 PM
As a Christian I can tell with 100% certainty that I am monotheistic. Those who use the word "Trinity" to point to three individual and unrelated entities are either very misinformed about what the Holy Trinity is or the concept it is attempting to convey, or they simply choose what they want to believe about the Trinitarian concept.
Reply

Amadeus85
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
Once muslims say that they believe in the same God as christians do, and then muslims say that christians believe in three gods. Lol!
Make your decision once for all, and not change it with every thread.
Reply

جوري
05-20-2007, 07:26 PM
I'll solve this problem for everyone--
Christians are henotheistic! -- that way they can worship the "one G-D" w/out denying Jesus as a G-D, or the holy spirit ( as another G-D) or even Mary should the need arise...
Reply

Keltoi
05-20-2007, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I'll solve this problem for everyone--
Christians are henotheistic! -- that way they can worship the "one G-D" w/out denying Jesus as a G-D, or the holy spirit ( as another G-D) or even Mary should the need arise...
That is very cute but of course completely absurd.
Reply

جوري
05-20-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That is very cute but of course completely absurd.
I am glad you liked it--- I don't see absurdity-- I see complete sanity!... no point in proclaiming "Monotheism" When to the naked eye, it appears anything but! Henotheism, you can worship the "one G-D" and not deny the others as G-D to, and everyone is happy, and others are less confused about "trinity" or sub-expansion such as in Catholicism-- where every day someone is made divine through some unusual man-made rituals.. !

peace!
Reply

Keltoi
05-20-2007, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am glad you liked it--- I don't see absurdity-- I see complete sanity!... no point in proclaiming "Monotheism" When to the naked eye, it appears anything but! Henotheism, you can worship the "one G-D" and not deny the others as G-D to, and everyone is happy, and others are less confused about "trinity" or sub-expansion such as in Catholicism-- where every day someone is made divine through some unusual man-made rituals.. !

peace!
What "unusual man-made rituals" are you referring to? Doesn't matter anyway really. Christians know what they believe.
Reply

جوري
05-20-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What "unusual man-made rituals" are you referring to? Doesn't matter anyway really. Christians know what they believe.
You are right-- Christians know whom or what they are praying to when they sanctify men who lay in carcasses to G-D like status and ask them to intercede for them-- as if in fact ordained by G-D -- if that is satisfactory then we should "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie" !-- instead of making it an object for a debate with punches and counter punches... to us Muslims that is the very definition of shirk !-- to Christians, it is a form of worship and on the day of judgment shall be the decider-- as is in the Quran

"For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. "-- 5:48


peace!
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Amadeus85
05-20-2007, 07:54 PM
For me this discussion is pointless, because majority of muslim scholars agree that christians worship one God.
Reply

جوري
05-20-2007, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
For me this discussion is pointless, because majority of muslim scholars agree that christians worship one God.
Early Christians such as mentioned in Chapter 18 in the Quran were true (Monotheists) and are not the same as modern day Christians! So no, not all Muslim scholars would agree that modern day Christians are monotheists but will agree in fact that Christianity started off that way and meandered over the ages!-- And, you are right again about the topic.. it is useless at this point, we don't agree or see eye to eye-- and we can't amicably debate... once it gets to that stage a topic should be closed as it is neither informative not bridging of the gaps.

peace!
Reply

Keltoi
05-20-2007, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Early Christians such as mentioned in Chapter 18 in the Quran were true (Monotheists) and are not the same as modern day Christians! So no, not all Muslim scholars would agree that modern day Christians are monotheists but will agree in fact that Christianity started off that way and meandered over the ages!-- And, you are right again about the topic.. it is useless at this point, we don't agree or see eye to eye-- and we can't amicably debate... once it gets to that stage a topic should be closed as it is neither informative not bridging of the gaps.

peace!
The topic doesn't need to be closed as long as we can actually discuss things without throwing out accusations and insults.

As for your characterization of Catholicism praying to saints, that is partly correct and partly false. Catholics obviously believe in an afterlife. They also believe that when a person dies that doesn't mean your relationship with that person is over for all time. With the issue of saints, it isn't about praying to that saint as a god, but praying with the saint to intercede on their behalf or pray for them. Just as Christians will pray to God on behalf of other people, Catholics believe that one can ask a saint to pray for them. It isn't about holding up saints to the same level as God, but asking saints to "put a good word in", so to speak.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
As a Christian I can tell with 100% certainty that I am monotheistic. Those who use the word "Trinity" to point to three individual and unrelated entities are either very misinformed about what the Holy Trinity is or the concept it is attempting to convey, or they simply choose what they want to believe about the Trinitarian concept.
No doubt that you might believe that what you believe is monotheism, however in the view of both Jews and Muslims you are a polytheist.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Once muslims say that they believe in the same God as christians do, and then muslims say that christians believe in three gods. Lol!
Make your decision once for all, and not change it with every thread.
There is a big difference in the God that Jesus believed and those who followed his pure teachings and the God you believe in. He was a monotheist you are a polytheist. We worship the same God that Jesus worshiped. This is the truth.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
For me this discussion is pointless, because majority of muslim scholars agree that christians worship one God.
No statement can be further from the truth. No two muslims differ that the christians are polytheists.
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No doubt that you might believe that what you believe is monotheism, however in the view of both Jews and Muslims you are a polytheist.
Of course in my view Jews and Muslims are wrong.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Of course in my view Jews and Muslims are wrong.
I agree. So are the Jews and Christians in my view. So let's wait and see.:thumbs_up
Reply

Amadeus85
05-20-2007, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Early Christians such as mentioned in Chapter 18 in the Quran were true (Monotheists) and are not the same as modern day Christians! So no, not all Muslim scholars would agree that modern day Christians are monotheists but will agree in fact that Christianity started off that way and meandered over the ages!-- And, you are right again about the topic.. it is useless at this point, we don't agree or see eye to eye-- and we can't amicably debate... once it gets to that stage a topic should be closed as it is neither informative not bridging of the gaps.

peace!
Its funny how you know better about christianity than me. You probably think that you are some kind of expert in my religion. But you have to learn much more to make such opinions, like for example what early christians believe.
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Amadeus85
05-20-2007, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No statement can be further from the truth. No two muslims differ that the christians are polytheists.
I spent many months on reading islamic websites, like for example islam.online, and i NOWHERE found such surrealistic statement that christians are politheists.
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Amadeus85
05-20-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
There is a big difference in the God that Jesus believed and those who followed his pure teachings and the God you believe in. He was a monotheist you are a polytheist. We worship the same God that Jesus worshiped. This is the truth.
Here comes our expert again. :D He knows everything - He knew what God Jesus worshipped, and what God i worship. Congratulations.

Its funny really because muslims always claim so hard that they believe in the same God that christians do.

I think that it would be easier just ask a christian - how many God he worships. He will tell you, whether he worships 3 gods, or 1 God. Dont think that you know more about christianity that christians LOL!
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I spent many months on reading islamic websites, like for example islam.online, and i NOWHERE found such surrealistic statement that christians are politheists.
Than you have wasted your time as you only needed to check what the Qur'an says about this thing and you would see that what you claim to know is wrong. I'll make it easy for you read:

"O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."(4:171)

"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (5:72)
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Here comes our expert again. :D He knows everything - He knew what God Jesus worshipped, and what God i worship. Congratulations.

Its funny really because muslims always claim so hard that they believe in the same God that christians do.

I think that it would be easier just ask a christian - how many God he worships. He will tell you, whether he worships 3 gods, or 1 God. Dont think that you know more about christianity that christians LOL!
As for what Jesus is then nowhere in the bible it says that he is God, or son of God or that he endorses trinity for that mater. Bring his own words if you wish proving me wrong. His words not those of others.
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
As for what Jesus is then nowhere in the bible it says that he is God, or son of God or that he endorses trinity for that mater. Bring his own words if you wish proving me wrong. His words not those of others.

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)

All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)

Will that suffice?
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
Let's take it one at a time shall we? So the one that sent him is different than him. We are seeing two entities. Are they both Gods?
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جوري
05-20-2007, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Its funny how you know better about christianity than me. You probably think that you are some kind of expert in my religion. But you have to learn much more to make such opinions, like for example what early christians believe.
??? It doesn't concern me what you as a Christian believe -- I care only in accordance with Islamic teachings as well as early historical and Anthropological accounts of Arius and Athanasius.

I can still however, pick up a bible and read it in original tongue and understand it better than you, just by virtue that I speak Arabic which is very close to Aramaic, I have also spent a number of my years attending catholic school, taking religion classes and attending mass along with the rest, so I have a good idea of what at least the (catholic concepts in Christianity) is -- (attending religion classes, I believe outweighs a debate on comparative religion.

at the end of the day, Your understanding of Christianly is utterly inconsequential to me one way or the other. So I am not sure what point you are making here? If I accept the Quran as the word of G-D (which I do) then according to it, those who spent yrs in the cave were monotheists... According to the Quran as well current Christians are Moshriks ( those attributing partners to Allah) That is NOT an opinion!--- Again whether or not you consider that the truth, is inconsequential to me, I don't subscribe to your religion or to your understanding of it-- I don't care to hand you terminology in kid glove as to not arouse feelings of discord. It is what it is.. and you are free to worship as you see fit... but by same token don't come explaining to us what a Monotheist is-- the Worship of Jesus, or holy Ghost or Mary or whomever else of saints or family members, isn't monotheism!
peace!
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Let's take it one at a time shall we? So the one that sent him is different than him. We are seeing two entities. Are they both Gods?
You are "seeing" two aspects of the one God. Jesus Christ, who was of the flesh but also of the Father, or divine. That is why Christ repeatedly makes reference to the fact that those who see Him see the One who sent Him, or God.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
So is he and the father the same one? If yes then do not say in the name of the father and the son and the holy gost but choose one between the father and the son then add holy ghost.

Also did Moses see Jesus when it says:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend Exodus 33:11

And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses "And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts . . . " EXODUS 33:23
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
You are "seeing" two aspects of the one God. Jesus Christ, who was of the flesh but also of the Father, or divine. That is why Christ repeatedly makes reference to the fact that those who see Him see the One who sent Him, or God.
So you can see the flash but not the spirit? Are you composed also by two persons but are one? Lol. Who am I talking to now your flesh or your spirit? :?
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
So is he and the father the same one? If yes then do not say in the name of the father and the son and the holy gost but choose one between the father and the son then add holy ghost.

Also did Moses see Jesus when it says:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend Exodus 33:11

And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses "And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts . . . " EXODUS 33:23
The reason for the Trinity concept is that God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all aspects of how God makes His will and presence known. They are all aspects of God and not separate from Him.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:52 PM
"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

So who has got the power then?
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
So you can see the flash but not the spirit? Are you composed also by two persons but are one? Lol. Who am I talking to now your flesh or your spirit? :?
Since I'm not God you're asking the wrong person. I'm not really sure I understand your question though.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Since I'm not God you're asking the wrong person. I'm not really sure I understand your question though.
read it again as it has nothing to do with God but with you. Try to grasp the point.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:54 PM
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father " MARK 13:32

So is the father more exalted then?
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
"I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30

So who has got the power then?
Christ is speaking of His will, or in other words, that Christ has no will other than the will of He who sent Him.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:55 PM
Can God be tempted by evil?

"Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan" MARK 1:13
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
read it again as it has nothing to do with God but with you. Try to grasp the point.
What do I personally have to do with the nature of Jesus Christ? I am not Christ, so comparing me to Christ is a pointless pursuit...surely you understand that.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:57 PM
Still you can not see that he is speaking of two entities. He said he who sent me. If it was aas you claim then it should have been it is me who sent me.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What do I personally have to do with the nature of Jesus Christ? I am not Christ, so comparing me to Christ is a pointless pursuit...surely you understand that.
surely you can read better than that. I said: So you can see the flash but not the spirit? Are you composed also by two persons but are one? Lol. Who am I talking to now your flesh or your spirit? Read it in the context of what was said before.
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جوري
05-20-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Can God be tempted by evil?

"Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan" MARK 1:13
Good Question-- there was a passage I read in the bible as well, where he (Jesus) PBUH, came upon a palm tree looking for dates and couldn't find it and cursed-- Why would G-D create the universe and not know whether the tree has dates or not? A tangled web (Christianity) -- I wouldn't know heads from "tales" ..
:w:
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:00 PM
perhaps it still goes to say that you still are under the influence of paul's cunning?!

"But be it so, I did not burden you nevertheless, being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Good Question-- there was a passage I read in the bible as well, where he (Jesus) PBUH, came upon a palm tree looking for dates and couldn't find it and cursed-- Why would G-D create the universe and not know whether the tree has dates or not? A tangled web (Christianity) -- I wouldn't know heads from "tales" ..
:w:
He must have cursed himself then. lol
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Can God be tempted by evil?

"Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan" MARK 1:13
Jesus Christ, as the God-Man, was sinless in nature. That doesn't mean that He couldn't grasp the concept of temptation. If one fully digests the passage in question, it becomes clear that Christ could not be tempted to sin.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:03 PM
did Moses see Jesus when it says:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend Exodus 33:11

And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses "And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts . . . " EXODUS 33:23
Reply

Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Jesus Christ, as the God-Man, was sinless in nature. That doesn't mean that He couldn't grasp the concept of temptation. If one fully digests the passage in question, it becomes clear that Christ could not be tempted to sin.
God -man. This is the very belief of the romans and greeks. Read about the Mythra and see.
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
did Moses see Jesus when it says:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend Exodus 33:11

And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses "And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts . . . " EXODUS 33:23
If you truly read this passage in context it is apparent that Moses did not actually speak to God "face to face", but was describing the intimate nature of his conversation with God.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:06 PM
was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
If you truly read this passage in context it is apparent that Moses did not actually speak to God "face to face", but was describing the intimate nature of his conversation with God.
by seeing his back part?
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
God -man. This is the very belief of the romans and greeks. Read about the Mythra and see.
The phrase "God-Man" is simply a way ministers and priests describe the nature of Christ, as being both flesh and divine.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:08 PM
tell me: was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:09 PM
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved GENESIS 32:30

Did Jacob see Jesus too?
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:11 PM
as for temptation:

'Let no man say he is tempted, I am TEMPTED of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTETH he any man" JAMES 1:13

while Jesus was tempted with evil.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 11:13 PM
think it over and we talk again as I do have to sleep. Have a good night.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 11:14 PM




Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by Keltoi
Christ has no will other than the will of He who sent Him.

Can we say that God has / had no will other than the will of Jesus (p) ?

Jesus (p) did not know when will be the last hour , .....no , not only Quran says so , ur Bible also tells u that. So , if Jesus (p) does not know when he needs to be appeared on the court , how can he judge ?

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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved GENESIS 32:30

Did Jacob see Jesus too?
If I'm not mistaken, Jacob is referring to the angel who wrestled with him?
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman




Salaam/peace ,





Can we say that God has / had no will other than the will of Jesus (p) ?

Jesus (p) did not know when will be the last hour , .....no , not only Quran says so , ur Bible also tells u that. So , if Jesus (p) does not know when he needs to be appeared on the court , how can he judge ?
A better way of saying it would be that Christ's will and God's will are one in the same.

How can Christ judge what exactly? Salvation?
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 11:30 PM


Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by Keltoi
A better way of saying it would be that Christ's will and God's will are one in the same.

-- God will ask Christ (May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon him) when he wants to have the last hour ?

If yes , then why can't u see that it's the will of God Almighty that is always taking place & not the will of any human being ?


How can Christ judge what exactly? Salvation?
well , Christ (p) is not supposed to judge anyone because all power belong to God only . Salvation depends on God's will & mercy , Christ (p) worshippers will be told , u evil doers , go away from me , i don't even know u .


Reply

Keltoi
05-21-2007, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace ,




-- God will ask Christ (May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon him) when he wants to have the last hour ?

If yes , then why can't u see that it's the will of God Almighty that is always taking place & not the will of any human being ?




well , Christ (p) is not supposed to judge anyone because all power belong to God only . Salvation depends on God's will & mercy , Christ (p) worshippers will be told , u evil doers , go away from me , i don't even know u .

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Christians don't believe Christ to be simply "a human being", so that line of thought doesn't really pertain to Christian belief.

I understand where you are coming from, since you don't think of Christ in the same way that we do. However, I can't really respond the way you want me to because I do not differentiate between the will of God and the will of Christ.
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Muslim Woman
05-21-2007, 03:33 AM




Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by Keltoi
If I'm not mistaken, Jacob is referring to the angel who wrestled with him?

If I'm not mistaken , the Prophet (p) fought with God ---not with angel . How logical is this to believe that God fought with a human being & lost ???????



God Almighty , the Most Powerful , our Creator -----He lost a fight to a human being ???? How this is NOT mocking God ?



I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.
I m trying to say that it's God's will that is always be done. Jesus (p) has no power over the last day ...he does not even know when it will happen. God will decide it.

Pl. think about this matter ........if Jesus (p) is God , how come he does not know about the Last Hour ? How he can decide ur fate when he does not know on which day it will be decided ?


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MustafaMc
05-21-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
As a Christian I can tell with 100% certainty that I am monotheistic. Those who use the word "Trinity" to point to three individual and unrelated entities are either very misinformed about what the Holy Trinity is or the concept it is attempting to convey, or they simply choose what they want to believe about the Trinitarian concept.
If Jesus and the Father are "One", how is it possible for Jesus to pray to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane "...Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:39 and how is it possible for Jesus to sit at the right hand of Himself?
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MustafaMc
05-21-2007, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Once muslims say that they believe in the same God as christians do, and then muslims say that christians believe in three gods. Lol!
Make your decision once for all, and not change it with every thread.
I don't say that the Christian concept of God is the same as what I have. To imply that Allah and "the Father" are the same thing is incorrect, because the title Father implies having a son or daughter which ALL Muslims will deny most vehemently! Muslims pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to.
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MustafaMc
05-21-2007, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Of course in my view Jews and Muslims are wrong.
..but, of course. Every one believes those of differing beliefs (or no belief) are wrong. If two people are saying contradictory things, then they can't both be right.
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
If Jesus and the Father are "One", how is it possible for Jesus to pray to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane "...Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:39 and how is it possible for Jesus to sit at the right hand of Himself?
Here you have to look at the nature of Christ as being both of the flesh and of God. The Almighty power that is God was not present within Christ during His time on Earth. He was of the flesh. With all that brings with it. When Christ is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, He is doing so knowing full well that He is taking upon Himself the sins of the world. As a consequence, Christ did not have the intimate communion with God. Simply imagine what it would be like to have that kind of intimate connection with God, only to have that string cut so that sinners might achieve salvation.

I think the confusion here is the lack of understanding about who and what Christians believe Christ to be. I think many non-Christians mistakenly assume that since Christ is the essence of God in the flesh that means there was no God in Heaven during Christ's years on Earth. Of course there was. Jesus was fully man, but His essence was divine. When the intimate communion with God was no longer there for Him, Christ felt fear and doubt, as He was of the flesh.

No doubt it is a complicated concept to get one's head around. Someone much more knowledgable than me on the subject could probably find the words to explain it more clearly. Perhaps Grace Seeker might like to add something to the discussion.
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I don't say that the Christian concept of God is the same as what I have. To imply that Allah and "the Father" are the same thing is incorrect, because the title Father implies having a son or daughter which ALL Muslims will deny most vehemently! Muslims pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to.
In general, the name of Father applied to deity signifies that he is the origin of what is subject to him, a supreme and powerful authority, a patriarch, and protecter.

The Jewish people also referred to God as the "Father".
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:41 PM
I will keep it simple for you and one question I will ask (although I asked yesturday e few times and got no reply).

tell me: was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
I will keep it simple for you and one question I will ask (although I asked yesturday e few times and got no reply).

tell me: was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
From what I understand this passage is referring to Moses and his interaction with the Pharaoh, who believed himself to be a god. By giving Moses the power to perform "god-like" miracles, Moses appeared as a fellow "god" to the Pharoah. Aaron served as the mouthpiece of Moses to the Pharaoh, which I suppose is the reason for the allusion to a "prophet", as Moses was a prophet to the true God.

So the obvious answer is no. Moses is not God.
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
From what I understand this passage is referring to Moses and his interaction with the Pharaoh, who believed himself to be a god. By giving Moses the power to perform "god-like" miracles, Moses appeared as a fellow "god" to the Pharoah. Aaron served as the mouthpiece of Moses to the Pharaoh, which I suppose is the reason for the allusion to a "prophet", as Moses was a prophet to the true God.

So the obvious answer is no. Moses is not God.
So the bible says God for Moses but you say no God. For Jesus bible says nowhere God, but you say God. How marvelous. Why do you not use the same explanation for Jesus? Do you not see how messed up your beliefs and principles are?
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
So the bible says God for Moses but you say no God. For Jesus bible says nowhere God, but you say God. How marvelous. Why do you not use the same explanation for Jesus? Do you not see how messed up your beliefs and principles are?
No I don't see how "messed up" my beliefs and principles are. The passage you posted is easily understood in context. It is in no way stating that Moses is God. The fact that you believe it does leads me to believe you didn't really read the passage, only took that quote from a source of your own.
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No I don't see how "messed up" my beliefs and principles are. The passage you posted is easily understood in context. It is in no way stating that Moses is God. The fact that you believe it does leads me to believe you didn't really read the passage, only took that quote from a source of your own.
When talking about Jesus, the passage dictates the context in your eyes. When talking about others the context dictates the meaning of the passage. This is your messed up principles. Anyway you can not see such as you are already indictrinated by these principles. Just do yourself a favor. Read the bible again with your eyes open and think for yourself. You might be surprised what you will find. Do yourself at least this justice. Or you can choose to stay the way you are. It is up to you. As I said before, you have your religion and I have mine.
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
When talking about Jesus, the passage dictates the context in your eyes. When talking about others the context dictates the meaning of the passage. This is your messed up principles. Anyway you can not see such as you are already indictrinated by these principles. Just do yourself a favor. Read the bible again with your eyes open and think for yourself. You might be surprised what you will find. Do yourself at least this justice. Or you can choose to stay the way you are. It is up to you. As I said before, you have your religion and I have mine.
No offense, but I don't need your advice as to my own faith. The one thing we can agree on though is your last sentence.
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No offense, but I don't need your advice as to my own faith. The one thing we can agree on though is your last sentence.
Yes indeed. Let's leave it at that then shall we?
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Keltoi
05-21-2007, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes indeed. Let's leave it at that then shall we?
I don't mind answering productive questions if the question is posed in the spirit of understanding and worthwhile communication, but something tells me you are interested in neither. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I don't mind answering productive questions if the question is posed in the spirit of understanding and worthwhile communication, but something tells me you are interested in neither. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
I forgive you.
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Redeemed
05-21-2007, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I'll solve this problem for everyone--
Christians are henotheistic! -- that way they can worship the "one G-D" w/out denying Jesus as a G-D, or the holy spirit ( as another G-D) or even Mary should the need arise...
You are confusing Christians with Catholics. Many Catholics do not consider themsleves Christians, because they believe that Mary is the mother of God. In fact, they even pray to her. Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. I know that must sound confusing, but actually it is not. She is the mother of the biological Part of Christ - not the mother of His divinity. He is true man from true man and true God from true God. Catholics, however, believe this too. I was born and raise Catholic. My family doesn't understand why I don't identify with being Catholic. They pray to Mary, they confess their sins to a priest whom they call father. Jesus said, "Call no man your father on earth for one is your Father in heaven." There are many other points that I don't agree with being Catholic. Nevertheless, I agree with Keloti. Those who choose to say we believe in 3 God's are just wanting to believe their own ideas of the trinity concept and not what ours is. I believe there is only one God.
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Redeemed
05-21-2007, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
I will keep it simple for you and one question I will ask (although I asked yesturday e few times and got no reply).

tell me: was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
Moses was a type of Christ because he was Israel's savior. He was a shadow of the power of the law that faded, and we have become dead to the law through the death of Jesus who is the King of Kings! The devils hate to hear that. If the law of Moses was glorious, then how much greater is the fulfillment of the the law (Jesus). Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." When Moses held up the serpent in the wilderness, that represented Jesus Christ, because Christ became sin for us so that we could be healed like the children of God were when they looked at the snake lifted high. Our sin went of Christ and His righteousness came on us. I would rather stand before a Holy, awesome, powerful, and terrible God hidden in the righteous spirit of Christ than my own righteous, which are filthy rages.:-[
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Woodrow
05-21-2007, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
You are confusing Christians with Catholics. Many Catholics do not consider themsleves Christians, because they believe that Mary is the mother of God. In fact, they even pray to her. Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. I know that must sound confusing, but actually it is not. She is the mother of the biological Part of Christ - not the mother of His divinity. He is true man from true man and true God from true God. Catholics, however, believe this too. I was born and raise Catholic. My family doesn't understand why I don't identify with being Catholic. They pray to Mary, they confess their sins to a priest whom they call father. Jesus said, "Call no man your father on earth for one is your Father in heaven." There are many other points that I don't agree with being Catholic. Nevertheless, I agree with Keloti. Those who choose to say we believe in 3 God's are just wanting to believe their own ideas of the trinity concept and not what ours is. I believe there is only one God.
I think you may have just answered what many of us Muslims (Especialy us reverts) mean when we belive Christians are now worshiping more than one God(swt) It is very similar to your concept of the way Catholics will pray to Saints and Mary and confess their sins to a man, yet still honestly believe they are worshiping only one God(swt). Now it is true that in your heart you view the trinity as being one God(swt) however, looking from the outside in ward the appearance is quite different and the fact is many Christians no longer even pray directly to God(swt) and address all of their prayers to Jesus(as) To some of us we see this as very similar to the Catholic concept of throwing in a middle man.
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جوري
05-21-2007, 10:51 PM
alapiana1 says--You are confusing Christians with Catholics.
I am not confused at all... I can see with incredible LUCIDITY-- that which for you, unfortunately; should you continue along this path, will never know!
Al7mdlilah 3la ni3mat Al-Islam--
012.101 ---" Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protecting Guardian in the world and the Hereafter. Make me to die Muslim (unto Thee), and join me to the righteous."


Amên
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Redeemed
05-21-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think you may have just answered what many of us Muslims (Especialy us reverts) mean when we belive Christians are now worshiping more than one God(swt) It is very similar to your concept of the way Catholics will pray to Saints and Mary and confess their sins to a man, yet still honestly believe they are worshiping only one God(swt). Now it is true that in your heart you view the trinity as being one God(swt) however, looking from the outside in ward the appearance is quite different and the fact is many Christians no longer even pray directly to God(swt) and address all of their prayers to Jesus(as) To some of us we see this as very similar to the Catholic concept of throwing in a middle man.
Yes, you're coming across crystal, but it seems like we have come full circle back to were we originally started. I thought you should understand being that you used to be Christian. We believe in only one God. Jesus said pray this way "Our Father who hart in Heaven...", but we find nothing wrong with doing it in His name. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name I will do it."
I just believe that Jesus is the Word of God made into flesh and blood. Don't you believe that God has the power to do that???:?
Peace
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Redeemed
05-21-2007, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am not confused at all... I can see with incredible LUCIDITY-- that which for you, unfortunately; should you continue along this path, will never know!
Al7mdlilah 3la ni3mat Al-Islam--
012.101 ---" Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protecting Guardian in the world and the Hereafter. Make me to die Muslim (unto Thee), and join me to the righteous."


Amên
Point taken!
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Amadeus85
05-21-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
You are confusing Christians with Catholics. Many Catholics do not consider themsleves Christians, because they believe that Mary is the mother of God. In fact, they even pray to her. Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. I know that must sound confusing, but actually it is not. She is the mother of the biological Part of Christ - not the mother of His divinity. He is true man from true man and true God from true God. Catholics, however, believe this too. I was born and raise Catholic. My family doesn't understand why I don't identify with being Catholic. They pray to Mary, they confess their sins to a priest whom they call father. Jesus said, "Call no man your father on earth for one is your Father in heaven." There are many other points that I don't agree with being Catholic. Nevertheless, I agree with Keloti. Those who choose to say we believe in 3 God's are just wanting to believe their own ideas of the trinity concept and not what ours is. I believe there is only one God.

I am christian who belongs to Roman- Catholic Church. And yes i believe in one God, i believe in Bible, Trinity, and accept Jesus Christ as Son of God. I dont pray to Holy Mary as i pray to God. I just ask Holy Mary to intercede for me before God. And yes i believe that Holy Mary was special, as she was chosen by God to be mother for Son of God. And yes i am proud to be member of church that Jesus Christ built and Peter was its first head.
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Woodrow
05-21-2007, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Yes, you're coming across crystal, but it seems like we have come full circle back to were we originally started. I thought you should understand being that you used to be Christian. We believe in only one God. Jesus said pray this way "Our Father who hart in Heaven...", but we find nothing wrong with doing it in His name. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name I will do it."
I just believe that Jesus is the Word of God made into flesh and blood. Don't you believe that God has the power to do that???:?
Peace
Allah(swt) has the ability to do what ever he desires. We were created to worship him alone, that is our purpose. We were not created to worship any one but Allah(swt). There is no evidence that Allah(swt) has created another for us to worship and there is no reason to believe that Allah(swt) no longer has the ability to forgive sins.

Allah(swt) is above all of his creation and there was no need in Him to lower himself to the level of his creation. This is simply man's own conceit and our desire to believe we are so great that Allah(swt) has to act in accordance with our desires and feelings. We can not imagine the full glory of Allah(swt) so by altering the image of Isa(as) we have made a vain attempt to reduce Allah(swt) to human terms.

It is this false image that we have created that has become a substitute for the true nature of Allah(swt) and that is what many now worship and "feel" they are worshiping Allah(swt) but in truth are basking in their own concept of what they want Allah(swt) to be.
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
??? It doesn't concern me what you as a Christian believe -- I care only in accordance with Islamic teachings as well as early historical and Anthropological accounts of Arius and Athanasius.

I can still however, pick up a bible and read it in original tongue and understand it better than you, just by virtue that I speak Arabic which is very close to Aramaic, I have also spent a number of my years attending catholic school, taking religion classes and attending mass along with the rest, so I have a good idea of what at least the (catholic concepts in Christianity) is -- (attending religion classes, I believe outweighs a debate on comparative religion.

at the end of the day, Your understanding of Christianly is utterly inconsequential to me one way or the other. So I am not sure what point you are making here? If I accept the Quran as the word of G-D (which I do) then according to it, those who spent yrs in the cave were monotheists... According to the Quran as well current Christians are Moshriks ( those attributing partners to Allah) That is NOT an opinion!--- Again whether or not you consider that the truth, is inconsequential to me, I don't subscribe to your religion or to your understanding of it-- I don't care to hand you terminology in kid glove as to not arouse feelings of discord. It is what it is.. and you are free to worship as you see fit... but by same token don't come explaining to us what a Monotheist is-- the Worship of Jesus, or holy Ghost or Mary or whomever else of saints or family members, isn't monotheism!
peace!


LOL!! You guys are funny. 5 pages of posts in one day, and this (that I have highlighted) is the only one of the lot of them that had anything to do with what Christians or Muslims know about the Bible. The rest of it was all the perpetual conversation on this board regarding contrasting beliefs, descriptions, and definitions about God. 320,000 other threads to discuss that in and you ALL want to discuss it here in this one. We're a sad lot.


As to PurestAmbrosia's comment. I realize that there is some legitmate question about whether or not the Gospel of Matthew might have had an Aramaic forerunner, but beyond that particular book, there is no evidence that any of the rest of the New Testament was originally written in anything but Greek.

I know you are already aware that the New Testament is a collection of documents written by several different people over an extended period of time, my best guess about 40 years (50 AD - 90 AD).

1) Some of Paul's letters would have been the first of those documents that became part of the New Testament. As Paul was known as the "Apostle to the Gentiles", he was not writing to Aramaic speakers, but Greek speakers in Greek (and Roman) communities, not Jewish communities. Given that we also know his Jewish names was Saul, and he still wrote as Paul, his Greek name, it seems rather obvious that Paul wrote all of his letters in Greek, not in Aramaic.

2) The earliest of the gospels is the Gospel of Mark. Earliest church tradition is that it was written by Mark in Italy, perhaps even Rome and that it's intended audience were Gentile believers, probably those in Rome. There are both Latinisms and Aramaicisms within the book. If the presence of these Aramaicism is "proof" for its writing in Aramaic, then the presence of these Latinisms would be equal "proof" for its writing in Latin. Obviously both cannot be true at the same time. Another answer to why they are present is that Mark was communicating Jewish customs and experiences from the life and teachings of Jesus that would have been unfamiliar to his Roman-Gentile audience and explaining them for them.

Commentator A.E.J. Rawlinson likens Mark's rough, ungrammatical Greek to that spoken by the lower classes in Rome, especially those who might have come from Palesitne or Syria and spoke Aramaic as their mother tongue. So, I can see why one might see a strong Aramaic influence in the writing, just like my Spanish speaking friends see a strong American influence in my writing, even when I write them in Spanish. It's there, because even writing in Spanish, I still think American, (And I likewise can tell the difference between an English letter written by one of my Chilean friends and one of my Mexican friends.)

3) The Gospel of John, the letters of John, and the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) are all fairly late writings, around 90 AD, maybe even a little later for Revelation. John was the pastor of the church Paul founded at Ephesus and from there was exiled to the island of Patmos at the end of his life. It was during this period of his life that these various writings were all written. Again, just as was the case for Paul, these people are going to be Greek speakers (and readers). The language of the Gospel's prolouge (John 1:1-18) especially with its heavy emphasis of using the Greek idea of logos to speak of Jesus and his direct allusion to the interest of visiting Greeks in meeting with Jesus (John 12:20-22) is another indication that the Gospel was probably written wit an eye on the Gentile world. Again, as with Mark, we see a great deal of explaining and translating Jewish practices and names, something that would be unnecessary if written to a Aramaic community, but very pertinent for a Gentile church outside of Palestine.

4) The letters of Peter have some problem with proving their authorship by Peter. Although the letters claim to have been written by Peter within the text, there are those who think that someone other author simply made that claim in writing them in order that they might be more generally accepted. Especially since it is not till 135 AD that we have undeniable proof that the early church is using these letters by quoting them in their own writings, this has to be given some consideration. But, one of the main arguments against Peter writing it is the quality of the Greek with which it is written, and many simply don't believe that a Jewish fisherman would have been that well versed in Greek. But this problem would not prove that they were written in Aramaic, but only that Peter was not the real author. Certainly it is possible that Peter (raised in a multilingual part of the country) could have been able to communicate in both Greek and Aramaic.. Even if Peter was the author and unable to speak good Greek, he simply could have dicated his letter to another who actually penned it to paper for him using proper grammar. Given that the intended audience of the first letter is "strangers in the world scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia" (1:1), places in norther Asia Mino (modern day Turkey), Peter's audience too, like those before him, is Greek-speaking. We don't have as clear of an audience for the second letter, but the vices that Peter warns against were more typical of Gentiles than Jews, so again this argues for a Greek-speaking audience.

5) James. This letter is addressed to "the twelve tribes scattered among the nations". At last we have one intended for Jewish Christians. We also find Hebrew titles that while translated into Greek (in what I think are the Greek originals) they are not explained. Thus also indicated that the recipients have a good working knowledge of Hebrew. There is little doubt that the intended readers of this letter are Jews-Christians, and probably ones who understand Hebrew. (Not all Jews were able to speak Hebrew because of the Jewish diaspora, but these probably were, or at least the writer was able to.)

So, why do I still think that James was probably written in Greek and not Aramaic? First the letter is written to thosew ho are "scattered among the nations", and Jews who had scattered eventually took Hebrew as their second language not their native language. Jewish visitors to Jerusalem would speak another langauge as their first language. We have unintended testimony of this in the book of Acts when the miracle of Pentecost takes place:
Acts 2
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
And also recall that when Pilate had the sign made for Jesus' cross (or whoever you believe was on it) that he had the sign written in Aramaic, Latin, and Greek.

Why Aramaic? Because it was the local language, the language of Jesus. Why Latin? Because it was the language of the Romans, the people staging the execution.
Why Greek? Because Greek was the common language of the day, nearly everyone spoke Greek even if they did not speak the local language. So, when in doubt, write what you want people to understand in Greek.
As this last point applies to the sign Pilate had placed over the cross in the middle of Jerusalem, it applies even more when sending a letter to people "scattered among the nations".

6) Jude. Pretty much everything that has been said about James could be said for Jude.

7) Luke and Acts were written by the Gentile Christian Luke. They are so obviously Greek in nature that it is hardly worth discussing them unless you have specific questions.

8) Hebrews. This letter is officially titled "To the Hebrews". This title is in the oldest manuscripts, though there are some who say that it is not original. That may be true, but we have no other claim for another title for it. If the title is accurate it follows that it was written to a group of Jews. The material in the book presupposes intitmate knowledge of Jewish worship, witihout any explanation. However, the oldest manuscript copies we have of it are in Greek. So, either it was written to a Jewish community (either Jewish-Christians or as an evangelistic tool to try and convert Jews to Chrsitians) of the diaspora (and thus Greek-speaking Jews), or it was written to Aramaic-speaking Jews in Palestine and then translated to Greek with the original Aramaic version of the letter lost. The quality of the Greek in the oldest manuscripts is elegant. The Old Testament passages that are quoted appear to be quoted from the Septuagint. The Septuagint was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Tanakh. If the letter was originally written in Aramaic, then the Old Testament passage would have been written in Hebrew and the translator would have been translating from Hebrew to Greek. But what we see are quotes taken directly from the Septuagint, not translations from Hebrew Tanakh. Why do I make the distinction? Because our Jewish friends on this forum, repudiate the Septuagint as a good translation of the Hebrew Tanakh into Greek. They despise the way that the New Testament makes use of the Hebrew Tanakh scriptures. Whoever translated the letter so elegantly from Aramaic to Greek, could have done the same for translating the Hebrew Tanakh to Greek. But Jews don't like the rendering of the Old Testament passages in the letter anymore than they like the rendering of the Hebrew Tanakh to Greek in the Septuagint. So, it seems to me that this letter must have simply used the Septuagint for the Old Testament passages that it quotes. That only makes sense if the letter was written in Greek to begin with.

9) Matthew. Unquestionably, the best case for an original in Aramaic vs Greek can be made for this of all the writings of the New Testament. Yet some supposed "scholars" suggest there is an antipathy exhibited toward Jesus in the Gospel and an ignorance of Jewish life so deep that the writer must have been a Gentile Christian.

Probable location of composition is Antioch (in modern day Syria). Now, while Syriac and Aramaic are closely related and one might thing that this alone makes the case for it being written in Aramaic, Antioch was actually a Greek-speaking city in the first century. However, Jerome, writing in the 5th centure, and best known for translating the Bible from Greek and Hebrew to Latin used a Greek edition of Matthew for his translation, but reports a belief that "it was first written in Hebrew (not Aramaic), but that who translated it into Greek is not known." Origen (a 2nd century church father) reports much the same thing, but only quotes it in Greek. Indeed, Matthew was the most quoted of all the Gospels by the early church, and not once is it quoted in Hebrew, only Greek. Now this could be because the early church fathers were all writing to Greek speaking audiences. It is also suggested that it was Matthew himself who having written an early version of his gospel in Hebrew (or Aramaic) then himself rewrote it in Greek. Personally, I am most likely to believe this. And the reason is simple, there are no Hebrew or Aramaic copies in existence. The closest that we can come to an Aramaic copy of Matthew (or any New Testament writing) are 4th-7th century Syriac translations. All of the older copies of manuscripts that we can put our hands on are in Greek. Accepting the rumor as true, if Matthew had oriignally written his Gospel in either Hebrew or Aramaic, I do not think the early church would have disposed of them unless Matthew himself had provided another version of the Gospel.



Now, there are those who will argue against some of the traditional authorship and dating that I have provided here. They will say that it wasn't really the disciples John or Matthew or Peter who wrote any of these items, that others did it in a later century. One just has to understand that if those arguments are true, then it really means that the NT could not have been written in Aramaic. The Jewish branches of the Christian church were pretty much decimated as a result of Rome's response to the Jewish revolt of 70 A.D. After that date, the church basically no longer existed in the land where it was born. Almost all subsequent addition to the Chrisitan community after the fall of Jerusalem was among Gentile converts. A late date for the writing of any NT document would presuppose not only that the documents were not written by the original band of Aramaic speaking disciples, but that there was no need to write in Aramaic, as there were few Aramaic speakers remaining in the church to either write or read it.

Lastly, there is the pattern of other Jewish writers of the time, Philo and Josephus. Both wrote in Greek. Also, today the examination of non-literary papyri, items that were of the nature of business or personal notes, the Greek of the home and the market place, are similar in construction to the Greek of the New Testament. These non-literary papyri written in Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament, are found even in Galilee, the region of Israel from which Jesus recruited his disciples and in which he spent most of his ministry. The Aramaicisms that are found in it are to be expected of people who would have been bilingual, just as in Texas today people speak a type of Spanglish.
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Keltoi
05-22-2007, 12:10 AM
That is alot of information. Thanks for the effort.
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Balthasar21
05-22-2007, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
tell me: was Moses a God-man too?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1



Yes according to the above verse ,
Reply

Keltoi
05-22-2007, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by Balthasar21
Yes according to the above verse ,
No it doesn't....

It states that Moses would be as a god to Pharaoh.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-22-2007, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
You are confusing Christians with Catholics. Many Catholics do not consider themsleves Christians, because they believe that Mary is the mother of God. In fact, they even pray to her. Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. I know that must sound confusing, but actually it is not. She is the mother of the biological Part of Christ - not the mother of His divinity. He is true man from true man and true God from true God. Catholics, however, believe this too. I was born and raise Catholic. My family doesn't understand why I don't identify with being Catholic. They pray to Mary, they confess their sins to a priest whom they call father. Jesus said, "Call no man your father on earth for one is your Father in heaven." There are many other points that I don't agree with being Catholic. Nevertheless, I agree with Keloti. Those who choose to say we believe in 3 God's are just wanting to believe their own ideas of the trinity concept and not what ours is. I believe there is only one God.
It is quite amazing to see you say "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". How ironic for a Protestant (I suppose) to deny a Catholic being a Christian. Don't you consider Jesus to be Son of God and at the same time fully God? Then clearly Mary must be the Mother of God as the Catholics claim and you must be confused.

You don't see that the same logic that you use against the Catholics, that Muslims use the same logic against Christians in general. Again how ironic.
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
It is quite amazing to see you say "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". How ironic for a Protestant (I suppose) to deny a Catholic being a Christian. Don't you consider Jesus to be Son of God and at the same time fully God? Then clearly Mary must be the Mother of God as the Catholics claim and you must be confused.

You don't see that the same logic that you use against the Catholics, that Muslims use the same logic against Christians in general. Again how ironic.

I was taken aback by the statement myself at first. And I don't think he means what at first glance it seemed to say to me. Finally, after reading it a few times, I think I understood what alapiana1 was trying say by "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". I don't really think that he was sayig that Catholics are not Christians. (Though, if I am wrong, alapiana1 will I hope correct me.)

It seems like he was saying, don't confuse what is specifically Catholic theology and practice as being representative of all of Christian teaching in general. Some of what people here say is true of Christian thinking is true only of Catholic Christianity -- for example, instance while no Chistians actually worship Mary as herself a divine being, some Christians (Catholic Christians) venerate her to such a high degree that it seems like worship to many non-Catholics (be they non-Catholic Christians or non-Catholic Muslims).

So, don't get confused thinking of Catholicism as representative of all Christianity. Some Christian beliefs are held by all Christians in common (Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the World) and others are held more strongly by some Christians than others: Catholics like to speak of Mary as the theokotes, literally the "God-bearer"; Lutherans like to talk about the consubstantiation of the Eucharist; Assemblies of God (and some others) like to talk about the Bible as the infallible, inerrant, literal Word of God; Methodist like to talk about Sanctification of the believer; Pentecostals like to talk about the rapture. Now, of course, Methodists and Assemblies of God may also talk about the rapture or Pentecostals and Catholics may talk about sanctification, but each group does sort of have those things that are particularly important to them.

While that may seem strange to an outsider, I sort of see some of the same stuff in Isalm. Certain groups within Islam have their special emphases, there are not just Sunni and Shi'a, there are 4 different schools of jurispridence thought within Isalm; there are Muslims who consider music haraam and say that all true Muslims know that music is haraam and there are Muslims who consider themselves true Muslims who say that this is not the teaching of Islam but of just a few "enthusiats" (that was the word shared with me a couple of times). And there are other differences of interpretation or emphasis that I find from time to time and curiously I find that people sort of naturally gravitate to other Muslims who agree with htem. So while there are not denominations in Islam like in Christianity, there are still differences that have developed and, at least in my observation, Islam is not the same every place one goes -- though on the whole I think that Islam is probably a little more homogenous than Christianity.
Reply

Balthasar21
05-22-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No it doesn't....

It states that Moses would be as a god to Pharaoh.


Maybe you can give the overstanding of the verse without your adding own words to it .
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Redeemed
05-22-2007, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I am christian who belongs to Roman- Catholic Church. And yes i believe in one God, i believe in Bible, Trinity, and accept Jesus Christ as Son of God. I dont pray to Holy Mary as i pray to God. I just ask Holy Mary to intercede for me before God. And yes i believe that Holy Mary was special, as she was chosen by God to be mother for Son of God. And yes i am proud to be member of church that Jesus Christ built and Peter was its first head.
OK, hang on bro, no offense intended to you. I believe there are many Catholics that are heaven bound, but I see things a little different than you in the sense that I am not proud of my denominational tag. It is not religious affiliation that saves me it is relationship with God. Those denominational tags will fall off in heaven and burn off in hell. So being Catholic or Protestant is not what this is about. My family is stanch Catholics. They believe in praying to Mary and for the dead and to the saints. I just don’t receive any teachings in doctrine that can’t be backed up Scripturally from the Bible. We are on the wrong forum for this discussion. But if you would like to discuss it further, you can e-mail me through the forum’s back office. The Lord bless :)
Reply

Redeemed
05-22-2007, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I was taken aback by the statement myself at first. And I don't think he means what at first glance it seemed to say to me. Finally, after reading it a few times, I think I understood what alapiana1 was trying say by "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". I don't really think that he was sayig that Catholics are not Christians. (Though, if I am wrong, alapiana1 will I hope correct me.)

It seems like he was saying, don't confuse what is specifically Catholic theology and practice as being representative of all of Christian teaching in general. Some of what people here say is true of Christian thinking is true only of Catholic Christianity -- for example, instance while no Chistians actually worship Mary as herself a divine being, some Christians (Catholic Christians) venerate her to such a high degree that it seems like worship to many non-Catholics (be they non-Catholic Christians or non-Catholic Muslims).

So, don't get confused thinking of Catholicism as representative of all Christianity. Some Christian beliefs are held by all Christians in common (Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the World) and others are held more strongly by some Christians than others: Catholics like to speak of Mary as the theokotes, literally the "God-bearer"; Lutherans like to talk about the consubstantiation of the Eucharist; Assemblies of God (and some others) like to talk about the Bible as the infallible, inerrant, literal Word of God; Methodist like to talk about Sanctification of the believer; Pentecostals like to talk about the rapture. Now, of course, Methodists and Assemblies of God may also talk about the rapture or Pentecostals and Catholics may talk about sanctification, but each group does sort of have those things that are particularly important to them.

While that may seem strange to an outsider, I sort of see some of the same stuff in Isalm. Certain groups within Islam have their special emphases, there are not just Sunni and Shi'a, there are 4 different schools of jurispridence thought within Isalm; there are Muslims who consider music haraam and say that all true Muslims know that music is haraam and there are Muslims who consider themselves true Muslims who say that this is not the teaching of Islam but of just a few "enthusiats" (that was the word shared with me a couple of times). And there are other differences of interpretation or emphasis that I find from time to time and curiously I find that people sort of naturally gravitate to other Muslims who agree with htem. So while there are not denominations in Islam like in Christianity, there are still differences that have developed and, at least in my observation, Islam is not the same every place one goes -- though on the whole I think that Islam is probably a little more homogenous than Christianity.
Yes, that is not far from what I was trying to say!
Reply

Redeemed
05-22-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
It is quite amazing to see you say "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". How ironic for a Protestant (I suppose) to deny a Catholic being a Christian. Don't you consider Jesus to be Son of God and at the same time fully God? Then clearly Mary must be the Mother of God as the Catholics claim and you must be confused.

You don't see that the same logic that you use against the Catholics, that Muslims use the same logic against Christians in general. Again how ironic.
I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor to I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth has His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. The Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ there are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no knows the Father except the son and whom He reveals Him to. Blessed are those who see this.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-22-2007, 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor to I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth has His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. The Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ there are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no knows the Father except the son and whom He reveals Him to. Blessed are those who see this .
See also the VERBATIM post below even with spelling mistakes repeated. The only deviations are in black and blue font. Post # 178 of "Are we gods?"

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-gods-12.html

Good qestion. Remember that God is a Spirit, and He can be at more than one place at a time. He is onmipresent (not the devil). However, His ways are past finding out. I don't know much, but I'll share what I know. I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is, and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor to I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth has His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ. There are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is.

Did you even write the original post? This is a repeating problem with you. You must have a set of canned points that you want to repeat again and again - thinking that if you repeat it enough times someone will be misled into believing this falsehood. Your intent has been crystal clear to me from the 2nd or 3rd post and your evangelizing is not appreciated in the least!
Reply

Redeemed
05-22-2007, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
See also the VERBATIM post below even with spelling mistakes repeated. The only deviations are in black and blue font. Post # 178 of "Are we gods?"

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-gods-12.html

Good qestion. Remember that God is a Spirit, and He can be at more than one place at a time. He is onmipresent (not the devil). However, His ways are past finding out. I don't know much, but I'll share what I know. I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is, and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor to I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth has His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ. There are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is.

Did you even write the original post? This is a repeating problem with you. You must have a set of canned points that you want to repeat again and again - thinking that if you repeat it enough times someone will be misled into believing this falsehood. Your intent has been crystal clear to me from the 2nd or 3rd post and your evangelizing is not appreciated in the least!
To you it is clear but not to everyone. I am asked the same questions, so I give the same answers. I would like this done to me when I don't remember someone's response, if they repeat, it helps jar my memory. I guess I am getting old:laugh:
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MustafaMc
05-22-2007, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
While that may seem strange to an outsider, I sort of see some of the same stuff in Isalm. Certain groups within Islam have their special emphases, there are not just Sunni and Shi'a, there are 4 different schools of jurispridence thought within Isalm; there are Muslims who consider music haraam and say that all true Muslims know that music is haraam and there are Muslims who consider themselves true Muslims who say that this is not the teaching of Islam but of just a few "enthusiats" (that was the word shared with me a couple of times). And there are other differences of interpretation or emphasis that I find from time to time and curiously I find that people sort of naturally gravitate to other Muslims who agree with htem. So while there are not denominations in Islam like in Christianity, there are still differences that have developed and, at least in my observation, Islam is not the same every place one goes -- though on the whole I think that Islam is probably a little more homogenous than Christianity.
Thank you for your explanation. Yes, there are divisions within Islam just like in Christianity. There are Shi'a and Sunni Muslims killing each other every day in Iraq just like the Protestants and Catholics were recently doing in Ireland. The issue is when the one labels the other as a non-believer, then they seem to think that fighting and killing can be justified. However, I consider both as Muslims who believe in the Oneness of Allah and acccept Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Messenger of Allah.

Islam teaches that it is absolutely wrong for Muslims to fight each other. There is an hadith to the effect that if 2 Muslims were fighting and one killed the other then both would be sent to Hell - the one for the actual killing and the other for the intention and striving to kill. Clearly, some Muslims are not living by Islam.
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skhalid
05-22-2007, 01:04 PM
The Quran is a combination of all the holy books in the main religions..therefore I would say muslims who read it know a lot about their religion as well as others!!!!
Reply

Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by skhalid
The Quran is a combination of all the holy books in the main religions..therefore I would say muslims who read it know a lot about their religion as well as others!!!!
I don't understand how this works.

The Qur'an teaches as true things that other religions teach as false and vice versa. So, Muslims who only read the Qur'an would believe things of other religions that those religions do not actually believe for themselves.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Moses was a type of Christ because he was Israel's savior. He was a shadow of the power of the law that faded, and we have become dead to the law through the death of Jesus who is the King of Kings! The devils hate to hear that. If the law of Moses was glorious, then how much greater is the fulfillment of the the law (Jesus). Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." When Moses held up the serpent in the wilderness, that represented Jesus Christ, because Christ became sin for us so that we could be healed like the children of God were when they looked at the snake lifted high. Our sin went of Christ and His righteousness came on us. I would rather stand before a Holy, awesome, powerful, and terrible God hidden in the righteous spirit of Christ than my own righteous, which are filthy rages.:-[
You do not have any idea whatsoever of what you are talking about. Why don't you let those who have more knowledge than you talk about these things?
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Yes, you're coming across crystal, but it seems like we have come full circle back to were we originally started. I thought you should understand being that you used to be Christian. We believe in only one God. Jesus said pray this way "Our Father who hart in Heaven...", but we find nothing wrong with doing it in His name. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name I will do it."
I just believe that Jesus is the Word of God made into flesh and blood. Don't you believe that God has the power to do that???:?
Peace
God will never divide or share in His authority. God will never do such. The rest of the idolators will ask you the same question. If God can make what you claim, why can He not create all these God's that they worship as well?!
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I am christian who belongs to Roman- Catholic Church. And yes i believe in one God, i believe in Bible, Trinity, and accept Jesus Christ as Son of God. I dont pray to Holy Mary as i pray to God. I just ask Holy Mary to intercede for me before God. And yes i believe that Holy Mary was special, as she was chosen by God to be mother for Son of God. And yes i am proud to be member of church that Jesus Christ built and Peter was its first head.
Well it seems that catholics seem to be doomed although they too believe in Jesus and accept him. How amazing.
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skhalid
05-22-2007, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't understand how this works.

The Qur'an teaches as true things that other religions teach as false and vice versa. So, Muslims who only read the Qur'an would believe things of other religions that those religions do not actually believe for themselves.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?
The Quran is a mixture of what is found in the Bible and other holy books, yes it is not always the same things said, some things relate to others and some contrast and are completely different.
What I meant is that the Quran teaches about other religions as well but in the way which shows agreement as well as disagreement within certain aspects.
I hope that helps! :D
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No it doesn't....

It states that Moses would be as a god to Pharaoh.
Whatever you may decide.:thumbs_up
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
It is quite amazing to see you say "You are confusing Christians with Catholics". How ironic for a Protestant (I suppose) to deny a Catholic being a Christian. Don't you consider Jesus to be Son of God and at the same time fully God? Then clearly Mary must be the Mother of God as the Catholics claim and you must be confused.

You don't see that the same logic that you use against the Catholics, that Muslims use the same logic against Christians in general. Again how ironic.
Indeed. I have only one word for them:

Matthew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
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Trumble
05-22-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Well it seems that catholics seem to be doomed although they too believe in Jesus and accept him. How amazing.
No doubt they think you are equally 'doomed'. I guess it comes down to whether or not God actually has this 'mercy' that is ascribed to Him or not. 'Doomed' seems just a little excessive to me as a punishment for taking the wrong side in minor theological difference of opinion.
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Amadeus85
05-22-2007, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Well it seems that catholics seem to be doomed although they too believe in Jesus and accept him. How amazing.
Yes and you are the person who knows who is going to be doomed and who not. :D
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker





While that may seem strange to an outsider, I sort of see some of the same stuff in Isalm. Certain groups within Islam have their special emphases, there are not just Sunni and Shi'a, there are 4 different schools of jurispridence thought within Isalm; there are Muslims who consider music haraam and say that all true Muslims know that music is haraam and there are Muslims who consider themselves true Muslims who say that this is not the teaching of Islam but of just a few "enthusiats" (that was the word shared with me a couple of times). And there are other differences of interpretation or emphasis that I find from time to time and curiously I find that people sort of naturally gravitate to other Muslims who agree with htem. So while there are not denominations in Islam like in Christianity, there are still differences that have developed and, at least in my observation, Islam is not the same every place one goes -- though on the whole I think that Islam is probably a little more homogenous than Christianity.
You are missrepresenting the facts (although I think because of the lack of information you might have on this topic). This is because the four schools that you mention, those represent what Islam is and never will you find within them anything in which they differ in regards to creed. The differences are in jurisprudence not in the fundamentals of creed. While the protestants, catholics and other than them in Christianity, differ in creed. This is the core of the religion. If they were to differ in jurisprudence then ok, you might say that they are the same but not when they differ on the fundamentals of their creed.
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
OK, hang on bro, no offense intended to you. I believe there are many Catholics that are heaven bound, but I see things a little different than you in the sense that I am not proud of my denominational tag. It is not religious affiliation that saves me it is relationship with God. Those denominational tags will fall off in heaven and burn off in hell. So being Catholic or Protestant is not what this is about. My family is stanch Catholics. They believe in praying to Mary and for the dead and to the saints. I just don’t receive any teachings in doctrine that can’t be backed up Scripturally from the Bible. We are on the wrong forum for this discussion. But if you would like to discuss it further, you can e-mail me through the forum’s back office. The Lord bless :)
Yes. It is not convenient to show to "these muslims" how divided you are. :thumbs_up
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I believe that God is a Spirit; in fact, the Bible says that He is and that those who worship Him must do it in spirit and in truth. I, however, have no problem believing that God can inhabit a human person or be in more that more place at a single moment in time. We do not limit what God can do. We do not look at God as if He is limited to the confines of time and space, as we know it. I have no problem believing that God's word could be made flesh, nor to I have a problem seeing God as all wise, merciful and Holy. Since He is Holy and a Spirit, I have no problem as seeing Him as the Holy Spirit and yet the same one true God. To try to understand the essence of God in terms of human dimensions only leads to horrible heresies of which Muslims think us guilty of. I look at Jesus who was the only prophet (Son of Man) to be sinless and conceived of a virgin (Son of Mary). That alone should be a sign and I hint as to the true nature of Jesus Christ. Since He did not have an earthly father, it only confirms that through the prophets and even Jesus Himself the Bible speaks absolute truth has His Father being God. It is written in the Scriptures, "He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son, as not life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I do not want the wrath of God abiding on me. I would have to be spiritually dead to believe that He is not who He says. The Bible is the inerrant word of God to the true believers and follows of Christ there are no mistakes in it pertaining to who Jesus really is. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no knows the Father except the son and whom He reveals Him to. Blessed are those who see this.
You forget the example of Adam. If this is your standard then Adam has more right to be worshiped then Jesus.
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't understand how this works.

The Qur'an teaches as true things that other religions teach as false and vice versa. So, Muslims who only read the Qur'an would believe things of other religions that those religions do not actually believe for themselves.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?
What he means is the true books, in reference to the book of Jesus, he means the Injeel not the new testament.

Anyway, let us see this principle you raised. Does not the new testament contradict the old testament in multiple places and verdicts? You know this more than well and there is no need for me to present verses. Would you say that the principle stands for the New Testament?

I say no. It neither stands for the New Testament, nor for the Qur'an.
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by skhalid
The Quran is a mixture of what is found in the Bible and other holy books, yes it is not always the same things said, some things relate to others and some contrast and are completely different.
What I meant is that the Quran teaches about other religions as well but in the way which shows agreement as well as disagreement within certain aspects.
I hope that helps! :D
It would have been more clear to say: Clarification and abrogation. This also aplies to previous laws in relation to what came before it, in general.
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
No doubt they think you are equally 'doomed'. I guess it comes down to whether or not God actually has this 'mercy' that is ascribed to Him or not. 'Doomed' seems just a little excessive to me as a punishment for taking the wrong side in minor theological difference of opinion.
Both me and you are "doomed" in their view. Anyway:the difference is not minor but major. As for the Mercy of God, yes it is one of His attributes but so is justice and other than it. So judgement is not based only on mercy.
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
You are missrepresenting the facts (although I think because of the lack of information you might have on this topic). This is because the four schools that you mention, those represent what Islam is and never will you find within them anything in which they differ in regards to creed. The differences are in jurisprudence not in the fundamentals of creed. While the protestants, catholics and other than them in Christianity, differ in creed. This is the core of the religion. If they were to differ in jurisprudence then ok, you might say that they are the same but not when they differ on the fundamentals of their creed.

Muslims have as the core of what it means to be Muslim a desire to follow the will of God, and yet as I mentioned above there are Muslims (I will point them out to you if need be) that disagree with other Muslims as to whether or not it is haraam to listen to music. This sounds like a difference of creed to me, it is about what is and is not within the will of Allah for a person to do and be submissive to him.

The differences in theology among Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic are not so large as to disagree about what it takes to be saved. We all recognize that salvation is in Christ Jesus, his death and resurrection and our faith placed in him, but ultimately it is about his grace which comes to us in faith and to which we then respond in thankfulness with good works done to bring glory to Christ's name. I dare say you will be hard pressed to find a Christian that will disagree with that immediate preceeding statement. They may want to improve upon it, but they won't summarily reject it out of hand as Muslims will with one another over views as to whether something as simple as music is or is not consistent with a life of Islam.
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Yes and you are the person who knows who is going to be doomed and who not. :D
We will see about that.:thumbs_up
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Muslims have as the core of what it means to be Muslim a desire to follow the will of God, and yet as I mentioned above there are Muslims (I will point them out to you if need be) that disagree with other Muslims as to whether or not it is haraam to listen to music. This sounds like a difference of creed to me, it is about what is and is not within the will of Allah for a person to do and be submissive to him.

The differences in theology among Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic are not so large as to disagree about what it takes to be saved. We all recognize that salvation is in Christ Jesus, his death and resurrection and our faith placed in him, but ultimately it is about his grace which comes to us in faith and to which we then respond in thankfulness with good works done to bring glory to Christ's name. I dare say you will be hard pressed to find a Christian that will disagree with that immediate preceeding statement. They may want to improve upon it, but they won't summarily reject it out of hand as Muslims will with one another over views as to whether something as simple as music is or is not consistent with a life of Islam.
No. You are missinformed about what is Islam, the creed and the fiqh issues. You also missunderstand the submission in islamic terms. I advice you to read on it if indeed it is the correct information you are after.
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No. You are missinformed about what is Islam, the creed and the fiqh issues. You also missunderstand the submission in islamic terms. I advice you to read on it if indeed it is the correct information you are after.
Taking your advice, I will seek out further information and clarification from others. I pray that you will also understand why I say that it seems you may similarly misunderstand the differences between what appear as conflicting Christian theologies.
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Sunnih
05-22-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Taking your advice, I will seek out further information and clarification from others. I pray that you will also understand why I say that it seems you may similarly misunderstand the differences between what appear as conflicting Christian theologies.
I am not disputing that we dissagre about the Christian theologies and you see it the way you see it. Fair enough. But what I am saying is that the differences in Christian theology are in fundamentals while those of the four schools in Islam are not in fundamentals. Yes you might say that the differences between sunnihs and shias are fundamental. To this I would say yes they are. Do you see the point I am making?

Thanks.
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Grace Seeker
05-22-2007, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
I am not disputing that we dissagre about the Christian theologies and you see it the way you see it. Fair enough. But what I am saying is that the differences in Christian theology are in fundamentals while those of the four schools in Islam are not in fundamentals. Yes you might say that the differences between sunnihs and shias are fundamental. To this I would say yes they are. Do you see the point I am making?

Thanks.
Yeah, I got that the last time, and even the time before.
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MustafaMc
05-23-2007, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Muslims have as the core of what it means to be Muslim a desire to follow the will of God, and yet as I mentioned above there are Muslims (I will point them out to you if need be) that disagree with other Muslims as to whether or not it is haraam to listen to music. This sounds like a difference of creed to me, it is about what is and is not within the will of Allah for a person to do and be submissive to him.

The differences in theology among Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic are not so large as to disagree about what it takes to be saved. We all recognize that salvation is in Christ Jesus, his death and resurrection and our faith placed in him, but ultimately it is about his grace which comes to us in faith and to which we then respond in thankfulness with good works done to bring glory to Christ's name. I dare say you will be hard pressed to find a Christian that will disagree with that immediate preceeding statement. They may want to improve upon it, but they won't summarily reject it out of hand as Muslims will with one another over views as to whether something as simple as music is or is not consistent with a life of Islam.
Excuse me, but it seems that you are nit picking to magnify differences between the 4 Sunni schools of thought and painting with a large brush to minimize doctrinal differences between Catholic, Protestant etc. To my knowledge no Muslim following the Hanafi shool of thought will say that one following the Shafi one is going to Hell. As in all religions there are those who are more conservative in interpreation of what is right and wrong on relatively minor issues as you say about music. Additional ones are shaking hands with opposite sex, having pictures in the home, men wearing a beard, etc. There are Muslims that take a more liberal approach, but as far as I know the conservative ones are inclined to say that they are sinning rather than being a dis-believer.

Issues such as music are not part of the creed of Islam. I have 2 small books, "The Muslim Creed" and "Islamic Creed" that do not mention the minor points such as music.
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Muslim Woman
05-23-2007, 12:50 AM




Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by MustafaMc
...To my knowledge no Muslim following the Hanafi shool of thought will say that one following the Shafi one is going to Hell. .

yap, i never heard of it . I just wrote to sis glo that fortuanately all Muslims ( Shia , Sunni ) do believe that God is one---that's the most imp matter in Islam.

I love to listen to Islamic songs of Yusuf Islam , Dawud Ali & others . I m 100 % sure that those who are against Music won't say that i will be in hell forever. Maximum few yrs may be but not permanantly as i don't associate partner with God & did not kill any innocent persons......2 major sins in Islam.


take 1 example of Gay marriage ......no Imam will say that it's legal / ok but Christians differ about a major sin like it . Not only gay marriage is ok to them , Christians religious leaders can remain in their position in the Church.......that will be impossible in a Muslim society if any Imam by any chance declares that he is a gay .

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Redeemed
05-23-2007, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by skhalid
The Quran is a combination of all the holy books in the main religions..therefore I would say muslims who read it know a lot about their religion as well as others!!!!
That may be true, but it doesn't contain the most important message that is in the books of the Bible. In fact, it contradicts the Bible.
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Grace Seeker
05-23-2007, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Excuse me, but it seems that you are nit picking to magnify differences between the 4 Sunni schools of thought and painting with a large brush to minimize doctrinal differences between Catholic, Protestant etc. To my knowledge no Muslim following the Hanafi shool of thought will say that one following the Shafi one is going to Hell. As in all religions there are those who are more conservative in interpreation of what is right and wrong on relatively minor issues as you say about music. Additional ones are shaking hands with opposite sex, having pictures in the home, men wearing a beard, etc. There are Muslims that take a more liberal approach, but as far as I know the conservative ones are inclined to say that they are sinning rather than being a dis-believer.
OK. Point well taken. We need to use brushes of the same size in both cases.

And except for a very few reactionary type personalities, disputes within Christianity between Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic are not about who is and isn't going to heaven either. We may have differences on some of what we believe, but we all accept that there is one Lord, Jesus, who is Lord of and over all of us.

I think the following would be afrirmed by all Christians regardless of denominational background: a music video "Creed (Credo)" by Rich Mullins.
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MustafaMc
05-23-2007, 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. Point well taken. We need to use brushes of the same size in both cases.

And except for a very few reactionary type personalities, disputes within Christianity between Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic are not about who is and isn't going to heaven either. We may have differences on some of what we believe, but we all accept that there is one Lord, Jesus, who is Lord of and over all of us.

I think the following would be afrirmed by all Christians regardless of denominational background: a music video "Creed (Credo)" by Rich Mullins.
It is difficult to make broad generalizations, but some Christian denominations do believe that even the other Christian denominations, much less other religions, are going to Hell. This is particularly true regarding Catholic - Protestant points of view. Likewise, some Muslims groups consider themselves to be "the saved sect" and all other Muslims will go to Hell. I think this points to human nature for each to believe he is right and he is the one on the "staight and narrow". I also think it is best for each of us to strive the best that we can in the Way of God and to leave the judging to Allah.
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Trumble
05-23-2007, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This is particularly true regarding Catholic - Protestant points of view.
That's a very broad - and unjustified - generalization. It is not true of the majority of either denomination.
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glo
05-23-2007, 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think the following would be afrirmed by all Christians regardless of denominational background: a music video "Creed (Credo)" by Rich Mullins.
That music video was awesome, Grace Seeker. Thank you for posting the link. :)
I watched some of Rich Mullen's other videos too. What is that instrument he is playing?
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
That may be true, but it doesn't contain the most important message that is in the books of the Bible. In fact, it contradicts the Bible.
Yes. It contradicts all the forms of polytheism.
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Keltoi
05-23-2007, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes. It contradicts all the forms of polytheism.
What a coincidence...so does Christianity.
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Grace Seeker
05-23-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What a coincidence...so does Christianity.
Very truly said. :D
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What a coincidence...so does Christianity.
1+1+1=1 very true indeed.:omg:
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Keltoi
05-23-2007, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
1+1+1=1 very true indeed.:omg:
Of course God isn't a set of numbers.
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Of course God isn't a set of numbers.
He is not a multiple diety either.
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Grace Seeker
05-23-2007, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
He is not a multiple diety either.
Really? 1X1X1=??

I don't know why you don't get that we Christians are only talking about 1 God. Just one God to the power of 3 is still one.
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Really? 1X1X1=??

I don't know why you don't get that we Christians are only talking about 1 God. Just one God to the power of 3 is still one.
Yes really as you say In the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost.

and does not mean x but +.

Why I can't get that Christians believe in one god? Because this God is suposed to be the same God of the children of Israel. Ask the Jews if they recognize this one God you talk about. So both Jews and Muslims both consider the Christians as polytheists. That is why.

Just one God to the power of three? Why not 4, 5, 6, 7....etc as any other polytheists believe apart from the christians? You can claim that there is only one God but not what you take as God. What you take is three gods. No one except the christians will accept that when you say the father the son and the holy ghost this means one. Now as I have said before this is your belief and you can choose to keep it or not (this is your choice). But as for any Jew or Muslim, they will never accept that you worship only one God for as long as you stay with this belief.
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Keltoi
05-23-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes really as you say In the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost.

and does not mean x but +.

Why I can't get that Christians believe in one god? Because this God is suposed to be the same God of the children of Israel. Ask the Jews if they recognize this one God you talk about. So both Jews and Muslims both consider the Christians as polytheists. That is why.

Just one God to the power of three? Why not 4, 5, 6, 7....etc as any other polytheists believe apart from the christians? You can claim that there is only one God but not what you take as God. What you take is three gods. No one except the christians will accept that when you say the father the son and the holy ghost this means one. Now as I have said before this is your belief and you can choose to keep it or not (this is your choice). But as for any Jew or Muslim, they will never accept that you worship only one God for as long as you stay with this belief.
Somehow I don't think you speak for all Jews or Muslims. Christians understand very well that they worship the One God. That fact that some Jews or Muslims disagree doesn't really phase me, and shouldn't phase any believing Christian. We as Christians understand our faith, and the fact that others do not...well, that is unfortunate. However, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. The Christians on this forum have explained in great detail what the Trinity concept is about many, many times. There is only so much one can do to counter this false accusation.
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Grace Seeker
05-23-2007, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No one except the christians will accept that when you say the father the son and the holy ghost this means one. Now as I have said before this is your belief and you can choose to keep it or not (this is your choice). But as for any Jew or Muslim, they will never accept that you worship only one God for as long as you stay with this belief.

Then you must also think that we worship a different God than do you. And I do not just mean those you call partners (Jesus and the Holy Spirit), based on what you said, even our understanding of God the Father is different than your understanding of Allah.
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Somehow I don't think you speak for all Jews or Muslims. Christians understand very well that they worship the One God. That fact that some Jews or Muslims disagree doesn't really phase me, and shouldn't phase any believing Christian. We as Christians understand our faith, and the fact that others do not...well, that is unfortunate. However, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. The Christians on this forum have explained in great detail what the Trinity concept is about many, many times. There is only so much one can do to counter this false accusation.
As for the muslims I showed to you what the Qur'an says about your belief. As for the Jews, you also have here in this forum Jews who quote from their Rabis and anyone of them will confirm what I say whether or not you like it. False accusation? We will see indeed.
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Keltoi
05-23-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
As for the muslims I showed to you what the Qur'an says about your belief. As for the Jews, you also have here in this forum Jews who quote from their Rabis and anyone of them will confirm what I say whether or not you like it. False accusation? We will see indeed.
Yes, we will see in the end. I'm quite comfortable with that.
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Redeemed
05-23-2007, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes. It contradicts all the forms of polytheism.
If it contradicts polythesim, I am in agreement with that truth. There is a lot of truth in the Quran!
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Yes, we will see in the end. I'm quite comfortable with that.
As I have said time and again in these posts: You have your religion and I have mine.
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Sunnih
05-23-2007, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
If it contradicts polythesim, I am in agreement with that truth. There is a lot of truth in the Quran!
No one said that all the bible is wrong too you see. We too as muslims testify that bible has truth in it but also we testify that it contains falsehood as well. Take note please that we do not describe this falsehood to be comming from Jesus. Whatever Jesus said is true. However he did not say everything that you have in the bible (our position of course). That is why we say:

"O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
(3:64)

This is our position on this. I hope this helps.
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Grace Seeker
05-23-2007, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No one said that all the bible is wrong too you see. We too as muslims testify that bible has truth in it but also we testify that it contains falsehood as well. Take note please that we do not describe this falsehood to be comming from Jesus. Whatever Jesus said is true. However he did not say everything that you have in the bible (our position of course). That is why we say:

"O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
(3:64)

This is our position on this. I hope this helps.
Part of the problem with what you have said, though not the only one, is that while you recognize that what Jesus said is truth, you do not recognize what his own disciples record and passed on to us as what he said as being what he actually said. Rather than taking the word of those who were there -- a message that can be verified against other stories -- you trust instead the story from one who tells you that God told him different. And there is no way to verify his story, for no one else heard what he heard, they can only affirm that this is what they all heard that he said God said and also contend together that he could not have made it up on his own.

A second problem is, even in agreeing that part of the Bible is true, you will only rarely, if ever, say which parts. So you (not you personally, but those in general who sometimes practice what you have described here) pick and choose what you want when it is convenient for you and reject what you want when it is convenient for you. I prefer those who simply say that even if some of it may be accurate you are sure which part would be which and so they don't trust altogether.
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Redeemed
05-23-2007, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
No one said that all the bible is wrong too you see. We too as muslims testify that bible has truth in it but also we testify that it contains falsehood as well. Take note please that we do not describe this falsehood to be comming from Jesus. Whatever Jesus said is true. However he did not say everything that you have in the bible (our position of course). That is why we say:

"O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."
(3:64)

This is our position on this. I hope this helps.
We feel the same way about the Qur'an that you do about the Bible, but that goes without saying.
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Redeemed
05-23-2007, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Really? 1X1X1=??

I don't know why you don't get that we Christians are only talking about 1 God. Just one God to the power of 3 is still one.
You just proved that God is one using the art of science, cool!
:thumbs_up
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Redeemed
05-23-2007, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes really as you say In the name of the father and the son and the holy ghost.

and does not mean x but +.

Why I can't get that Christians believe in one god? Because this God is suposed to be the same God of the children of Israel. Ask the Jews if they recognize this one God you talk about. So both Jews and Muslims both consider the Christians as polytheists. That is why.

Just one God to the power of three? Why not 4, 5, 6, 7....etc as any other polytheists believe apart from the christians? You can claim that there is only one God but not what you take as God. What you take is three gods. No one except the christians will accept that when you say the father the son and the holy ghost this means one. Now as I have said before this is your belief and you can choose to keep it or not (this is your choice). But as for any Jew or Muslim, they will never accept that you worship only one God for as long as you stay with this belief.
Maybe this will help clarify it. We really don't need your advice about what we Christians believe. We don't tell you what you believe. We accept what you tell us you believe. Being on this Islamic forum for us non-Muslims (Christians) is like being in a Muslim state. Are you not going against the Qur'an by dishonoring us non-Muslims? You may ask how? Polytheism is idolatry and an abomination to God and Christian alike. If we say we believe in one true God, you have no right before God, man, Bible or the Qur'an to say otherwise. It is written, Judge not lest you be judged. Allah himself will judge and be against any Muslim who disrespects a non- Muslim in a Muslim state. Qur’an, 2:256. I find it disrespectful and dishonoring to keep coming against what we say we believe about God being ONE. You can believe that the Bible teaches there are three Gods, but you can’t tell us what we believe about God without being very disrespectful and very accountable to God for your words. :enough!:
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Grace Seeker
05-24-2007, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Sunnih
Just one God to the power of three? Why not 4, 5, 6, 7....etc as any other polytheists believe apart from the christians?

Is that what those others you call polytheists say? Or do they actually say that they do have more than one God? Maybe I haven't listened to Hindu descriptions of God well enough. I haven't heard them say that there is only one God.

Of course, I found 99 names for God in the Qur'an, maybe you aren't really a monotheist either. Who are all those other gods besides Allah?
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Muslim Knight
05-24-2007, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Of course, I found 99 names for God in the Qur'an, maybe you aren't really a monotheist either. Who are all those other gods besides Allah?
99 names of God, not gods. Those are the names by which God's creatures can know about His attributes.

Just like Grace Seeker, does this mean that there's two of you over there? Grace and Seeker? Of course not.
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Keltoi
05-24-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
99 names of God, not gods. Those are the names by which God's creatures can know about His attributes.

Just like Grace Seeker, does this mean that there's two of you over there? Grace and Seeker? Of course not.
I'm sure Grace Seeker was well aware of that. The point he was trying to make is that some people choose to believe what they want to believe. If you want Christians to be polytheists, or you get some satisfaction from saying that, you will believe it or pretend to believe it. Just as the Christians who participate in this sub-forum have explained in detail that the Trinity concept has nothing to do with three gods, but some people choose to believe what they wish to believe.
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Grace Seeker
05-24-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
99 names of God, not gods. Those are the names by which God's creatures can know about His attributes.

Just like Grace Seeker, does this mean that there's two of you over there? Grace and Seeker? Of course not.

Hey and when God is known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, how many gods are we talking about? Just one. Note I said "when God is known" --- that is all in the singular. Three names, three persons even, but not three beings -- just one God. Find any place in the Bible where it says that Christians believe in 3 gods. It can't be done.
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Muslim Knight
05-24-2007, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hey and when God is known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, how many gods are we talking about? Just one. Note I said "when God is known" --- that is all in the singular. Three names, three persons even, but not three beings -- just one God. Find any place in the Bible where it says that Christians believe in 3 gods. It can't be done.

Pak Ali, Muthusamy Karuppiah and Ah Chong are three separate persons. However, Anwar Ibrahim is just only one person with two names.



Find any place in the Bible where it says that Christians believe in 3 gods.
Hey you are right. The Trinity is just erudition by Paul! Let us just worship one God, then.

His Name is Allah.
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Grace Seeker
05-24-2007, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Pak Ali, Muthusamy Karuppiah and Ah Chong are three separate persons. However, Anwar Ibrahim is just only one person with two names.





Hey you are right. The Trinity is just erudition by Paul! Let us just worship one God, then.

His Name is Allah.
OK. We'll do away with the Trinity. I don't need that descriptor. But be aware that while the Bible says there is just one God, that the Bible also does call the Father God, the Bible does call the Son God, and the Bible does call the Holy Spirit God.

So, as a Muslim you can just say the Bible is wrong if you want. Fine. Go ahead. But I'm not going to change my belief that Jesus is God. It wasn't Paul who came up with that. It was the disciples who first acknowledged.

If you think that Paul invented it, I guess that just shows how little you know about the Bible. He actually says relatively little about it compared to the rest of the New Testament.
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Muslim Woman
05-24-2007, 04:41 AM
:sl:


Originally Posted by alapiana1


.....it doesn't contain the most important message that is in the books of the Bible. In fact, it contradicts the Bible.

Originally Posted by Sunnih
Yes. It contradicts all the forms of polytheism.
:haha:


:giggling:


if we want to give a serious ans , then all major holy books do give the most imp message : God is one , God does not have any equal partner god .
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