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barney
04-03-2007, 01:40 AM
Adam & Eve were the first humans.
They had two kids Caine & Abel.

Caine killed Abel and was cast out into the world, then lay with his wife and Gave birth to Enoch.

Slight flaw here...tell me if you spot it.
Where the galloping jimminys did Caines wife spring from? :D
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 01:55 AM
That's why the FSM is so logical.
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Philosopher
04-03-2007, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
That's why the FSM is so logical.
Thats why Judaism and Christianity is illogical.
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barney
04-03-2007, 02:05 AM
And indeed why I'm agnostic-monothist:D

Anything in the Quran to explain this by the way?
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Pygoscelis
04-03-2007, 04:00 AM
Well, does the bible actually explicitly state that Adam was the only man created out of mud? And that Eve was the only woman made from a rib?

Could it be that Adam and Eve were just one of many couples in God's project?
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snakelegs
04-03-2007, 04:01 AM
what's FSM?
all i can think of is "free speech movement" and i know we're not talking about that!
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barney
04-03-2007, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well, does the bible actually explicitly state that Adam was the only man created out of mud? And that Eve was the only woman made from a rib?

Could it be that Adam and Eve were just one of many couples in God's project?

Not mentioned though. Also definitly against the teachings of the major religions. It would nessesitate the simultanious creation of hundreds of humans and cain just bumping into one. Nahh, it just adds to the origin of the species arguement.

Actually it knocks the whole of Judism (and all derivertives of that faith) into a hat.
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Umu 'Isa
04-03-2007, 05:07 AM
From the Tafsir Ibn Kathir of Surah Al-Ma'idah

Several scholars among the Salaf and the later generations said that Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons because of the necessity of such action. They also said that in every pregnancy, Adam was given a twin, a male and a female, and he used to give the female of one twin, to the male of the other twin, in marriage. Habil's sister was not beautiful while Qabil's sister was beautiful, resulting in Qabil wanting her for himself, instead of his brother. Adam refused unless they both offer a sacrifice, and he whose sacrifice was accepted, would marry Qabil's sister. Habil's sacrifice was accepted, while Qabil's sacrifice was rejected, and thus what Allah told us about them occurred. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said -- that during the time of Adam -- "The woman was not allowed in marriage for her male twin, but Adam was commanded to marry her to any of her other brothers. In each pregnancy, Adam was given a twin, a male and a female. A beautiful daughter was once born for Adam and another one that was not beautiful. So the twin brother of the ugly daughter said, `Marry your sister to me and I will marry my sister to you.' He said, `No, for I have more right to my sister.' So they both offered a sacrifice. The sacrifice of the one who offered the sheep was accepted while the sacrifice of the other [the twin brother of the beautiful daughter], which consisted of some produce, was not accepted. So the latter killed his brother.''

You can read The Story of Habil (Abel) and Qabil (Cain) here
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barney
04-03-2007, 05:11 AM
So scholars decided. It's not Quranic or Bibalic?

Thanks by the way for the link.
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Umu 'Isa
04-03-2007, 05:14 AM
That is from the tafsir (explanation) of Surah Ma'idah (Surah 5:27-32) of the Qur'an
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Angelzz
04-03-2007, 05:18 AM
Its quranic - the scholars are explaining the chapter of the quran for you. but its Surah Al-Ma'idah in the Holy Quran
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barney
04-03-2007, 05:22 AM
[5.27] And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).
[5.28] If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds:
[5.29] Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and this is the recompense of the unjust.
[5.30] Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers
[5.31] Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.
[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


Cheers. but I cant see anything about Caine's wife in here. how did the Scholar see anything in it about twins or permission for effectively incest? theres nothing there at all. Nothing in the Bible either.

She just came out of nowhere?

Just noticed this from the scholar: (And recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam in truth;) meaning, tell these envious, unjust people, the brothers of swine and apes from the Jews and their likes among mankind, the story of the two sons of Adam, Habil and Qabil, )
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Pygoscelis
04-03-2007, 05:39 AM
Accordingto the bible, Man was made from dirt, and Woman was made from ribs.

This explains why women taste so much nicer than men.
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barney
04-03-2007, 05:40 AM
Yum.:D
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Umu 'Isa
04-03-2007, 05:52 AM
This is how the scholars explain the Qur'an in detail.

If you ask what is the best method of tafseer, the answer is that the best way is to explain the Qur’aan through the Qur’aan. For, what the Qur’aan alludes to at one place is explained at the other, and what it says in brief on one occasion is elaborated upon at the other. But if this does not help you, you should turn to the sunnah, because the sunnah explains and elucidates the Qur’aan.
When you do not get any help from the Qur’aan or the Sunnah, turn to the words of the companions. For they know the Qur'’an better: they have witnessed its revelation, and passed through the situations in which it was revealed: and know it and understand it fully.
source
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Keltoi
04-03-2007, 01:09 PM
The Christian perspective is that Adam and Eve gave birth to many offspring, since their life span was something like 930 years I believe. Cain married one of these offspring. While that sounds strange to us today because of the mistakes in DNA issue, the explanation would be that God did not forbid this type of marriage until the time of Moses, when humans were punished with imperfections. To Christians and Jews, and I assume Muslims too, all mankind are considered "brothers and sisters" since we all come from the same original source.
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Joe98
04-03-2007, 01:20 PM
None of the story makes sense.

Further proof there are no gods!
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- Qatada -
04-03-2007, 01:35 PM
:salamext:


We know that every prophet comes to his people and all the prophets call to the worship/obedience of our Creator according to the way He wants to be worshipped, the prophet comes with signs which no-one could ever replicate. There have been a total of 124,000 prophets who have come to mankind, as recorded authentically in Musnad Ahmad. All came to their people speaking in their tongue, making the message clear to them. Then some were guided while others were misled. And Allaah is the Almighty, All Wise. [Qur'an 14:4]


Every prophet had different laws according to their time, yet the goal was the same - be grateful to your Creator, and submit [islaam means submission.] Those who obeyed died, and those who rejected obedience to their Creator also died. Then Allaah replaced these people by others who would dwell in the same lands, and go through a similar experience for a temporary amount of time, then they too would die.

This world will last until a certain time appointed - the trumpet will be blown by an angel - by the command of Allaah, and the whole universe will be destroyed. Then the trumpet will be blown once again, and we will be brought back to life again by God - the One who created us out of nothing in the first place. The One who brings the dead land back to life by sending down rain. On that day every soul will be questioned about what it did, those who believed in God's Messenger, obeyed Him will be successful and be rewarded for the good they did to please God, those who rejected God and His message will be punished for their disbelief, taking God's message in jest and saying that it is 'stories of old.' Since that is exactly what the people of old said about the people before them.


We are created for a purpose in this life, and God did not create all this for no purpose. Mankind took the covenant with God; that if you do good to please Him - you will be rewarded, but if you reject God and turn away - then He is not in need of you, and you will be punished. If anyone is in doubt of this, then wait, we too are waiting.
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جوري
04-03-2007, 02:39 PM
Adam and Eve were fertile -- they went on to have many other kids... in fact the name lulwah was given to one of their daughters..
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 08:12 PM
This sits well with my “God Drops in Theory”. When knowledge contradicts faith, god drops in and suspends problems.

When problems occurred that there where no explanations for “god’s laws” were created to stop the problem.

Incest creates biological problems. Since the cause was unknown it just became one of god’s laws. That way god can “Drop In” and make it un-sinful for a while. Later he can “Drop In” and make it sinful again.

I heard once that you need at least 12 unrelated pairs to create a viable population that could survive the problems associated with inbreeding.

But of course god could have “Dropped In” and suspended the problems of inbreeding,
Or may be we evolved just like all other creatures.
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- Qatada -
04-03-2007, 08:30 PM
Kinda confusing how you say being created from nothing is much more believable than being created, then this same Creator sending different laws to different people at different times?
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Kinda confusing how you say being created from nothing is much more believable than being created, then this same Creator sending different laws to different people at different times?
Kinda confusing? How about silly? “God Drops in Theory”? :D :D
Oh well, that's just me being me. :skeleton:
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- Qatada -
04-03-2007, 08:57 PM
It's much more believable, and logical compared to being created from nothing. :)
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It's much more believable, and logical. :)
Well feel free to use my “God Drops in Theory” any time you want. :thumbs_up

You can use it to plug up the dozen holes in any creation myth. :-[

I only ask that you don't use it to disprove the FSM theory. :D :D
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- Qatada -
04-03-2007, 09:13 PM
Sure will, it makes much more sense. :p And i'll quote again:


It's much more believable, and logical compared to being created from nothing.

:)
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Hayate
04-03-2007, 09:14 PM
At different times in history and for different people, several things were allowed and several things were prohibited. These changed as time went on and different Prophets were sent by Allah.

I don't see the logic behind questioning the existence of Cain's wife. It's kinda obvious that in the very early days, brothers and sisters would beget with each other.
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hayate
At different times in history and for different people, several things were allowed and several things were prohibited. These changed as time went on and different Prophets were sent by Allah.

I don't see the logic behind questioning the existence of Cain's wife. It's kinda obvious that in the very early days, brothers and sisters would beget with each other.
Well you need to use my “God Drops in Theory” or some other Theory to eliminate the problems caused by inbreeding. :skeleton:
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barney
04-03-2007, 09:39 PM
We dont know how we were made. we have faith or no faith. those with faith can follow set stories eons ago. Those with no faith can ...well...just not know...but follow the ever developing knowlage on the matter.
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
We dont know how we were made. we have faith or no faith. those with faith can follow set stories eons ago. Those with no faith can ...well...just not know...but follow the ever developing knowlage on the matter.
Guess the value of X.

1 – 2 – 4 – 8 – X – 32 – 64

Well since we are guessing, 48 is a guess.

But it surly isn’t a good guess. :skeleton:

(May be god dropped in and changed the logic)
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aamirsaab
04-03-2007, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
(May be god dropped in and changed the logic)
Or maybe, evolution came in and changed the value of X to 69?!

:statisfie
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Hayate
04-03-2007, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Well you need to use my “God Drops in Theory” or some other Theory to eliminate the problems caused by inbreeding. :skeleton:
From what I understand, there are genetic problems caused by inbreeding because of the emergence of certain recessive genes (correct me if I'm wrong). Were there necessarily such genetic problems in the earliest days of human history?
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Pygoscelis
04-03-2007, 10:08 PM
I still say the best coherent explanation would be that Adam and Eve were not created alone, and that they were but one of many couples created by God. I haven't seen where the bible specifically states that God created only Adam and Eve and didn't keep at it.
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hayate
From what I understand, there are genetic problems caused by inbreeding because of the emergence of certain recessive genes (correct me if I'm wrong). Were there necessarily such genetic problems in the earliest days of human history?
It is not a human only problem. It is a problem every species can have.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
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noodles
04-03-2007, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I still say the best coherent explanation would be that Adam and Eve were not created alone, and that they were but one of many couples created by God. I haven't seen where the bible specifically states that God created only Adam and Eve and didn't keep at it.
Of course they weren't created alone. After they were created, Allah created twins for them. Then another set of twins.

Just like he created you and he created me.

Thats it innit(Note: I'm very opposed to using slang, but I couldn't help it) :statisfie
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Hayate
04-03-2007, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is not a human only problem. It is a problem every species can have.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
That may be true but there is no GUARANTEE that a problem will occur, is there?
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hayate
That may be true but there is no GUARANTEE that a problem will occur, is there?
Look at nature. Every species has found a way to stop inbreeding.
Gee I wonder why? :-[
But feel free to use my “God Drops in Theory”. :D

If you want a guarantee you need to go to the original manufacture. :laugh:
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Hayate
04-03-2007, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Look at nature. Every species has found a way to stop inbreeding.
Gee I wonder why? :-[
But feel free to use my “God Drops in Theory”. :D

If you want a guarantee you need to go to the original manufacture. :laugh:
Every species also does its best to survive and reproduce.
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wilberhum
04-03-2007, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hayate
Every species also does its best to survive and reproduce.
And one of the ways they survive is by developing methods that stop inbreeding. :thumbs_up

Those that didn't are no longer with us. :D Guess what, they don't get to reproduce any more. :laugh: :laugh: :skeleton:
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Hayate
04-03-2007, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
And one of the ways they survive is by developing methods that stop inbreeding. :thumbs_up

Those that didn't are no longer with us. :D Guess what, they don't get to reproduce any more. :laugh: :laugh: :skeleton:
And so did we. Once the need for inbreeding stopped, it was prohibited.
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wilberhum
04-04-2007, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hayate
And so did we. Once the need for inbreeding stopped, it was prohibited.
Or maybe an even simpler answer.
There never was a need.

I find it impossible to have an intelligent conversation about Adam and Eve.
It would be more fun to debate the Easter Bunny.
But then you don’t believe in Easter, so that don’t work either. :?

You can lead a horse to water
But some will never see the obvious. :laugh:

Keep your “Faith Blinders” handy.
You will need them the rest of your life. :D

I’m off this thread.
Enjoy :)
Wilber
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Hayate
04-04-2007, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Or maybe an even simpler answer.
There never was a need.

I find it impossible to have an intelligent conversation about Adam and Eve.
It would be more fun to debate the Easter Bunny.
But then you don’t believe in Easter, so that don’t work either. :?

You can lead a horse to water
But some will never see the obvious. :laugh:

Keep your “Faith Blinders” handy.
You will need them the rest of your life. :D

I’m off this thread.
Enjoy :)
Wilber
I've tried to decently reason with you, but you've been making jokes in pretty much every reply. I don't think you've been trying to understand this issue but are rather trying to disprove and insult our beliefs. If you ever want to seriously approach this issue, you're welcome to come back and discuss it.
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snakelegs
04-04-2007, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Look at nature. Every species has found a way to stop inbreeding.
not true - some have. many have not.
i am not knowledgeable in this area, but i think the problem with inbreeding depends on the gene pool. i think there is only a problem if there is a defect in the line.
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wilberhum
04-04-2007, 12:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
not true - some have. many have not.
i am not knowledgeable in this area, but i think the problem with inbreeding depends on the gene pool. i think there is only a problem if there is a defect in the line.
Can you name some that have not?
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snakelegs
04-04-2007, 12:58 AM
snakes and rats for sure, but there are many others. even dogs - say, siblings who are not raised together, will mate if given the chance.
myself, i avoid it (not personally, but in the animals i raise) to be on the safe side.
even humans - if they didn't know that they were closely related - there is no alarm that goes off if they mate.
of course, many species have indeed, found many and ingenious ways to prevent it, but many have not.
another example would be the parsees (zoroastrians) in india - they are forbidden to marry outside the religion and they are not allowed to convert people. i'm sure they follow the usual taboos about parents/kids, and siblings.
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wilberhum
04-04-2007, 02:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
snakes and rats for sure, but there are many others. even dogs - say, siblings who are not raised together, will mate if given the chance.
myself, i avoid it (not personally, but in the animals i raise) to be on the safe side.
even humans - if they didn't know that they were closely related - there is no alarm that goes off if they mate.
of course, many species have indeed, found many and ingenious ways to prevent it, but many have not.
another example would be the parsees (zoroastrians) in india - they are forbidden to marry outside the religion and they are not allowed to convert people. i'm sure they follow the usual taboos about parents/kids, and siblings.
First of all I have no inclination to tell you anything about snakes. :D

But Rats, that different. Boy was it fun looking up information about rat mating. :?
My wife thinks I have lost it. :skeleton:
Have a look at this:
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...nt/full/11/1/7
A preference by reproductively active females for unfamiliar males is interpreted as inbreeding avoidance.

As far as dogs, well if you are talking about domestic dogs, you are talking about a man created situation. Domestication is a process where humans, not nature, control breeding.
With wild dogs, when young males are chased out of the pack at maturity. Breeding is limited to the dominate male. The dominance cycle of the male is usually two generations or less which limits the inbreeding between father and daughters.

No matter how you cut the cake, inbreeding is a problem. In world of survival of the fittest, (or rat race:D (sorry I just had to do that)) inbreeding can spell the end.
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snakelegs
04-04-2007, 02:44 AM
naked mole rats are fascinating, but they are not really rats. they are very different.
btw, i saw some at living desert museum - they're cool to watch! much better than cain's wife!
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