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atha
04-07-2007, 12:07 AM
What If Iran Had Invaded Mexico?
Putting the Iran Crisis in Context

By Noam Chomsky

04/06/07 "ICH" -- - Unsurprisingly, George W. Bush's announcement of a "surge" in Iraq came despite the firm opposition to any such move of Americans and the even stronger opposition of the (thoroughly irrelevant) Iraqis. It was accompanied by ominous official leaks and statements -- from Washington and Baghdad -- about how Iranian intervention in Iraq was aimed at disrupting our mission to gain victory, an aim which is (by definition) noble. What then followed was a solemn debate about whether serial numbers on advanced roadside bombs (IEDs) were really traceable to Iran; and, if so, to that country's Revolutionary Guards or to some even higher authority.

This "debate" is a typical illustration of a primary principle of sophisticated propaganda. In crude and brutal societies, the Party Line is publicly proclaimed and must be obeyed -- or else. What you actually believe is your own business and of far less concern. In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line. It becomes beyond question, beyond thought itself, like the air we breathe.

The debate over Iranian interference in Iraq proceeds without ridicule on the assumption that the United States owns the world. We did not, for example, engage in a similar debate in the 1980s about whether the U.S. was interfering in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan, and I doubt that Pravda, probably recognizing the absurdity of the situation, sank to outrage about that fact (which American officials and our media, in any case, made no effort to conceal). Perhaps the official Nazi press also featured solemn debates about whether the Allies were interfering in sovereign Vichy France, though if so, sane people would then have collapsed in ridicule.

In this case, however, even ridicule -- notably absent -- would not suffice, because the charges against Iran are part of a drumbeat of pronouncements meant to mobilize support for escalation in Iraq and for an attack on Iran, the "source of the problem." The world is aghast at the possibility. Even in neighboring Sunni states, no friends of Iran, majorities, when asked, favor a nuclear-armed Iran over any military action against that country. From what limited information we have, it appears that significant parts of the U.S. military and intelligence communities are opposed to such an attack, along with almost the entire world, even more so than when the Bush administration and Tony Blair's Britain invaded Iraq, defying enormous popular opposition worldwide.

"The Iran Effect"

The results of an attack on Iran could be horrendous. After all, according to a recent study of "the Iraq effect" by terrorism specialists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, using government and Rand Corporation data, the Iraq invasion has already led to a seven-fold increase in terror. The "Iran effect" would probably be far more severe and long-lasting. British military historian Corelli Barnett speaks for many when he warns that "an attack on Iran would effectively launch World War III."

What are the plans of the increasingly desperate clique that narrowly holds political power in the U.S.? We cannot know. Such state planning is, of course, kept secret in the interests of "security." Review of the declassified record reveals that there is considerable merit in that claim -- though only if we understand "security" to mean the security of the Bush administration against their domestic enemy, the population in whose name they act.

Even if the White House clique is not planning war, naval deployments, support for secessionist movements and acts of terror within Iran, and other provocations could easily lead to an accidental war. Congressional resolutions would not provide much of a barrier. They invariably permit "national security" exemptions, opening holes wide enough for the several aircraft-carrier battle groups soon to be in the Persian Gulf to pass through -- as long as an unscrupulous leadership issues proclamations of doom (as Condoleezza Rice did with those "mushroom clouds" over American cities back in 2002). And the concocting of the sorts of incidents that "justify" such attacks is a familiar practice. Even the worst monsters feel the need for such justification and adopt the device: Hitler's defense of innocent Germany from the "wild terror" of the Poles in 1939, after they had rejected his wise and generous proposals for peace, is but one example.

The most effective barrier to a White House decision to launch a war is the kind of organized popular opposition that frightened the political-military leadership enough in 1968 that they were reluctant to send more troops to Vietnam -- fearing, we learned from the Pentagon Papers, that they might need them for civil-disorder control.

Doubtless Iran's government merits harsh condemnation, including for its recent actions that have inflamed the crisis. It is, however, useful to ask how we would act if Iran had invaded and occupied Canada and Mexico and was arresting U.S. government representatives there on the grounds that they were resisting the Iranian occupation (called "liberation," of course). Imagine as well that Iran was deploying massive naval forces in the Caribbean and issuing credible threats to launch a wave of attacks against a vast range of sites -- nuclear and otherwise -- in the United States, if the U.S. government did not immediately terminate all its nuclear energy programs (and, naturally, dismantle all its nuclear weapons). Suppose that all of this happened after Iran had overthrown the government of the U.S. and installed a vicious tyrant (as the US did to Iran in 1953), then later supported a Russian invasion of the U.S. that killed millions of people (just as the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran in 1980, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, a figure comparable to millions of Americans). Would we watch quietly?

It is easy to understand an observation by one of Israel's leading military historians, Martin van Creveld. After the U.S. invaded Iraq, knowing it to be defenseless, he noted, "Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy."

Surely no sane person wants Iran (or any nation) to develop nuclear weapons. A reasonable resolution of the present crisis would permit Iran to develop nuclear energy, in accord with its rights under the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but not nuclear weapons. Is that outcome feasible? It would be, given one condition: that the U.S. and Iran were functioning democratic societies in which public opinion had a significant impact on public policy.

As it happens, this solution has overwhelming support among Iranians and Americans, who generally are in agreement on nuclear issues. The Iranian-American consensus includes the complete elimination of nuclear weapons everywhere (82% of Americans); if that cannot yet be achieved because of elite opposition, then at least a "nuclear-weapons-free zone in the Middle East that would include both Islamic countries and Israel" (71% of Americans). Seventy-five percent of Americans prefer building better relations with Iran to threats of force. In brief, if public opinion were to have a significant influence on state policy in the U.S. and Iran, resolution of the crisis might be at hand, along with much more far-reaching solutions to the global nuclear conundrum.

Promoting Democracy -- at Home

These facts suggest a possible way to prevent the current crisis from exploding, perhaps even into some version of World War III. That awesome threat might be averted by pursuing a familiar proposal: democracy promotion -- this time at home, where it is badly needed. Democracy promotion at home is certainly feasible and, although we cannot carry out such a project directly in Iran, we could act to improve the prospects of the courageous reformers and oppositionists who are seeking to achieve just that. Among such figures who are, or should be, well-known, would be Saeed Hajjarian, Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi, and Akbar Ganji, as well as those who, as usual, remain nameless, among them labor activists about whom we hear very little; those who publish the Iranian Workers Bulletin may be a case in point.

We can best improve the prospects for democracy promotion in Iran by sharply reversing state policy here so that it reflects popular opinion. That would entail ceasing to make the regular threats that are a gift to Iranian hardliners. These are bitterly condemned by Iranians truly concerned with democracy promotion (unlike those "supporters" who flaunt democracy slogans in the West and are lauded as grand "idealists" despite their clear record of visceral hatred for democracy).

Democracy promotion in the United States could have far broader consequences. In Iraq, for instance, a firm timetable for withdrawal would be initiated at once, or very soon, in accord with the will of the overwhelming majority of Iraqis and a significant majority of Americans. Federal budget priorities would be virtually reversed. Where spending is rising, as in military supplemental bills to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would sharply decline. Where spending is steady or declining (health, education, job training, the promotion of energy conservation and renewable energy sources, veterans benefits, funding for the UN and UN peacekeeping operations, and so on), it would sharply increase. Bush's tax cuts for people with incomes over $200,000 a year would be immediately rescinded.

The U.S. would have adopted a national health-care system long ago, rejecting the privatized system that sports twice the per-capita costs found in similar societies and some of the worst outcomes in the industrial world. It would have rejected what is widely regarded by those who pay attention as a "fiscal train wreck" in-the-making. The U.S. would have ratified the Kyoto Protocol to reduce carbon-dioxide emissions and undertaken still stronger measures to protect the environment. It would allow the UN to take the lead in international crises, including in Iraq. After all, according to opinion polls, since shortly after the 2003 invasion, a large majority of Americans have wanted the UN to take charge of political transformation, economic reconstruction, and civil order in that land.

If public opinion mattered, the U.S. would accept UN Charter restrictions on the use of force, contrary to a bipartisan consensus that this country, alone, has the right to resort to violence in response to potential threats, real or imagined, including threats to our access to markets and resources. The U.S. (along with others) would abandon the Security Council veto and accept majority opinion even when in opposition to it. The UN would be allowed to regulate arms sales; while the U.S. would cut back on such sales and urge other countries to do so, which would be a major contribution to reducing large-scale violence in the world. Terror would be dealt with through diplomatic and economic measures, not force, in accord with the judgment of most specialists on the topic but again in diametric opposition to present-day policy.

Furthermore, if public opinion influenced policy, the U.S. would have diplomatic relations with Cuba, benefiting the people of both countries (and, incidentally, U.S. agribusiness, energy corporations, and others), instead of standing virtually alone in the world in imposing an embargo (joined only by Israel, the Republic of Palau, and the Marshall Islands). Washington would join the broad international consensus on a two-state settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, which (with Israel) it has blocked for 30 years -- with scattered and temporary exceptions -- and which it still blocks in word, and more importantly in deed, despite fraudulent claims of its commitment to diplomacy. The U.S. would also equalize aid to Israel and Palestine, cutting off aid to either party that rejected the international consensus.

Evidence on these matters is reviewed in my book Failed States as well as in The Foreign Policy Disconnect by Benjamin Page (with Marshall Bouton), which also provides extensive evidence that public opinion on foreign (and probably domestic) policy issues tends to be coherent and consistent over long periods. Studies of public opinion have to be regarded with caution, but they are certainly highly suggestive.

Democracy promotion at home, while no panacea, would be a useful step towards helping our own country become a "responsible stakeholder" in the international order (to adopt the term used for adversaries), instead of being an object of fear and dislike throughout much of the world. Apart from being a value in itself, functioning democracy at home holds real promise for dealing constructively with many current problems, international and domestic, including those that literally threaten the survival of our species.

Noam Chomsky is the author of Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy (Metropolitan Books), just published in paperback, among many other works.

Copyright 2007 Noam Chomsky

This article was first published at www.tomdispatch.com

Source: http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17491.htm
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Keltoi
04-07-2007, 12:17 AM
Gnome Chomksy is the king of moral relativism, but as always he has a knack for discussing the irrelevant.
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barney
04-07-2007, 12:21 AM
Noam Chomsky: Crazy name! Crazy guy!

I Love his work..its nuts
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NoName55
04-07-2007, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Gnome Chomksy is the king of moral relativism, but as always he has a knack for discussing the irrelevant.
I bet it would be a different story if he was to tow the official line. Instead of mocking his name pseudo-Intellectual racists would be worshiping him like they do so many of their other idols.
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 12:27 AM
I am all for an Iranian invasion of Mexico. They could probably run it better than the Mexicans do.

BTW....do the Iranians actually have any ships that are not wind powered. :)
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Keltoi
04-07-2007, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
I bet it would be a different story if he was to tow the official line. Instead of mocking his name pseudo-Intelectual racists would be worshiping him like they do so many of their other idols.
Are you calling me a racist? I don't care what "line" he tows. Perhaps if I agreed with you I wouldn't be called a racist?
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
I bet it would be a different story if he was to tow the official line. Instead of mocking his name pseudo-Intelectual racists would be worshiping him like they do so many of their other idols.
Chomsky already has his own, loyal worshipers...take Hugo Chavez for eg.

BTW....nice hit and run there, NoName. Spray a little "eau du racism" in the air...then off you are. Generally that technique is reserved until after you start losing the debate, isn't it?
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barney
04-07-2007, 12:36 AM
A change is as good as a rest
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Keltoi
04-07-2007, 12:50 AM
Since all the Iran threads were closed except for this one, I thought I would post an article in which the British sailors say outright that they were coerced into making the video "confessions".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070406/...a/iran_britain
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Chiteng
04-07-2007, 01:44 AM
And if the positions were reversed?

If Iran had all the power and nukes, and it was the USA that was trying
to obtain them?

What do you think, Iran would do about it?

Think very carefully about that answer.

It may be, that a truthfull evaluation, of that question, is what you
should expect.
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moujahid
04-07-2007, 07:05 AM
Noam Chomsky is the man. He is actully very sensible considering the part of the world he comes from. Because you know only closed minded bigots spend their life writing rubbish about how bad Muslims are. Lies will never get those people anywhere. Anyway, I enjoy chomsky's work. He is a truly intellectual political scientist. He should just accept Islam. Thats all he needs. InshaALLAH.
Everyone should read his Book "Hegemony or Survival" its about American imperialism.
These are the few people who see the truth to what it is.
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ACC
04-07-2007, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by moujahid
Noam Chomsky is the man. He is actully very sensible considering the part of the world he comes from. Because you know only closed minded bigots spend their life writing rubbish about how bad Muslims are. Lies will never get those people anywhere. Anyway, I enjoy chomsky's work. He is a truly intellectual political scientist. He should just accept Islam. Thats all he needs. InshaALLAH.
Everyone should read his Book "Hegemony or Survival" its about American imperialism.
These are the few people who see the truth to what it is.

Having read some of his work, I see him as one of the biggest haters of the West in the world. His ideas border on the absurd.
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Muezzin
04-07-2007, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ACC
Having read some of his work, I see him as one of the biggest haters of the West in the world. His ideas border on the absurd.
So basically, he's sitting on the other side of the seesaw that those crazy Israeli Muslim-haters are on?

Not all Israelis are Muslim-haters, just a silly few who write absurd articles.
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by moujahid
Noam Chomsky is the man. He is actully very sensible considering the part of the world he comes from. Because you know only closed minded bigots spend their life writing rubbish about how bad Muslims are. Lies will never get those people anywhere. Anyway, I enjoy chomsky's work. He is a truly intellectual political scientist. He should just accept Islam. Thats all he needs. InshaALLAH.
Everyone should read his Book "Hegemony or Survival" its about American imperialism.
These are the few people who see the truth to what it is.
Has it occured to you he might just be an anachronistic kook with a good command of the language?

His overriding theme is really a Marxist economic position combined with monolithic anti-Americansim. How do you feel about the treatment of Islam in Marxist states? Hmmmm? Can you say J-o-e S-t-a-l-i-n?

It is the anti-Americanism gig you like. It is the same reason Hugo Chavez likes him. Like most Marxists, he is an antitheist. The notion that he would embrace Islam is laughable. Here, he weighs in of agnosticism.

How do I define God? I don't. Divinities have been understood in various ways in the cultural traditions that we know. Take, say, the core of the established religions today: the Bible. It is basically polytheistic, with the warrior God demanding of his chosen people that they not worship the other Gods and destroy those who do -- in an extremely brutal way, in fact. It would be hard to find a more genocidal text in the literary canon, or a more violent and destructive character than the God who was to be worshipped. So that's one definition.

In the Prophets, one finds (sometimes) a different conception, much more humane. That's why the Prophets (the "dissident intellectuals" of their day) were persecuted, imprisoned, driven into the desert, etc. -- other reasons included their geopolitical analysis, unwelcome to power. The intellectuals who were honored and privileged were those who centuries later were called "false prophets." More or less a cultural universal. There were different conceptions of divinity associated with these tendencies, and Greek and Zoroastrian influences are probable causes for later monotheistic tendencies (how one evaluates these are a different matter).

Looking beyond, we find other conceptions, of many kinds. But I have nothing to propose. People who find such conceptions important for themselves have every right to frame them as they like. Personally, I don't. That's why you haven't found my "thoughts on this [for you] criticaI question." I have none, because I see no need for them (apart from the -- often extremely interesting and revealing -- inquiry into human culture an history).

From ZNet's ChomskyChat (www.lbbs.org): 1998 May 17: Reply from [Noam Chomsky], to Darrenn Bills, on "Definition of God."


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ACC
04-07-2007, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
So basically, he's sitting on the other side of the seesaw that those crazy Israeli Muslim-haters are on?

Not all Israelis are Muslim-haters, just a silly few who write absurd articles.
I would define chomsky as a kook. His religion is marxism.
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AmarFaisal
04-07-2007, 07:35 PM
Whatever abt Noam Chomsky...I am more concerned abt Iran and the MUslims who r going to suffer. Living so close to Iran ( in Kuwait) , I feel terrible, soo insecure abt our future in the gulf itself.:?
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
Whatever abt Noam Chomsky...I am more concerned abt Iran and the MUslims who r going to suffer. Living so close to Iran ( in Kuwait) , I feel terrible, soo insecure abt our future in the gulf itself.:?
I would like to tell you that there is nothing to worry about Amar, but it is not nice to lie. Let us hope Iran gets a unified message from the "West" and the Gulf Arab states...and Iraq doesnt fall into civil war. No need for despair, however. Every generation believes the world is in the worst state it has ever been in. We aren't even close at this time.
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AmarFaisal
04-07-2007, 08:52 PM
^^ Thank u so much for the kind words...in kwt whomever I ask abt the situation only says that the attack on Iran is coming..prepare to flee:cry:

Even during the US attack on Iraq, the Iraqis managed to throw a few misseles in Kwt. Iran being more pwerful will have no other choise but to attack American sites in kwt n these missles going astray. hitting wrong targets:exhausted

And the attack being said to come in late April....May Allah Protect us!:enough!:
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Cognescenti
04-08-2007, 05:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
^^ Thank u so much for the kind words...in kwt whomever I ask abt the situation only says that the attack on Iran is coming..prepare to flee:cry:

Even during the US attack on Iraq, the Iraqis managed to throw a few misseles in Kwt. Iran being more pwerful will have no other choise but to attack American sites in kwt n these missles going astray. hitting wrong targets:exhausted

And the attack being said to come in late April....May Allah Protect us!:enough!:
Amar;

You are asking the wrong people. The US is not going to attack Iran in the near future unless there is a surprise, overt, aggressive action from Iran.

1) There is no political will for it, here
2) The international community is finally acting more decisively
3) Amedinajad was put in his place by factions within Iran. They forced him to de-escalate the situation with the British hostages.

The US carrier actions in the Persian Gulf are for show. They are much closer to the Iranian coastline than they would have to be to launch an attack...they are purposely trying to be seen (and gathering intel on Iranian radar and weapons of course)

LAST week you should have been worried :) It is much better now.
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barney
04-08-2007, 05:28 AM
If The US attacks Iran without Iran first attacking a US ship, I'll eat my shorts.

Although I notice that the Iranians went for soft talking britain, to rattle our cage. try doing that with the Yanks.:enough!:
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-08-2007, 06:47 AM
US ain't ready to invade Iran, they could though, but atm that's gonna be too costly.
US needs second 9/11, the fear isn't enough yet for Iran, more needs to be done to make public go along, I think, unless a huge terrorist attack linked to Iran on US or Israel happens, there ain't gonna be a war, we'll see
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mahdisoldier19
04-08-2007, 07:32 AM
If only the Taliban had gone to war with Iran in 2000!
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Goku
04-08-2007, 02:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
If only the Taliban had gone to war with Iran in 2000!
How would that have helped?
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Cognescenti
04-08-2007, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Goku
How would that have helped?
Why, the Taliban 1st Armoured Corps would have swept aside all opposition and there wouldn't be such a pro-Western government in Iran, don't you knw.
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