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Bittersteel
07-30-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by CNN

PASADENA, California (CNN) -- A group of astronomers announced Friday that an object they discovered in the distant reaches of the solar system is large enough to be classified as the 10th planet -- a claim likely to reignite a debate over just how many objects should really have the title of planet.

The object -- located 96 times as far from the Earth as the Earth is from the sun, or nearly 9 billion miles away -- was first photographed in October 2003 by astronomers at the California Institute of Technology's Palomar Observatory, north of San Diego.

While researchers say they aren't yet sure of its actual size, they have determined the object is bigger than Pluto, currently the smallest planet and the one most distant from the sun.

"If Pluto is a planet, it seems reasonable that something that's bigger than Pluto, and further away than Pluto, should be called a planet, too," said Mike Brown, a Cal Tech planetary scientist who made the discovery with colleagues Chad Trujillo of the Gemini Observatory and David Rabinowitz of Yale University. However, a number of astronomers dispute whether Pluto, discovered in 1930, should really be classified as a planet, because it is so dissimilar from the other eight. Instead, they believe it should be classified only as a Kuiper Belt object, part of an array of icy debris in the outer reaches of the solar system. Thousands of Kuiper objects have been discovered, and more are being found all the time.

Brown concedes that both Pluto and his new planet are Kuiper objects -- but he argues they are also both big enough to be classified as planets. The International Astronomical Union, the official arbiter of such disputes, has classified Pluto as a planet and recently declined to demote it. Brown said resolving the argument over whether the object his team found is a planet will take years.

Brown's team has submitted a name for its proposed planet to the IAU, which won't be announced until the astronomy group hands down its ruling. While the object was first photographed in 2003, its motion was not detected until January because it was so far away. Since then, astronomers have been studying the object to estimate its size and motion. Brown said the planet-sized object probably wasn't discovered earlier because it was in a location where planets aren't expected.

"All of the planets are in a disc around the sun, and this object is 45 degrees out of that disc," he said. --CNN Producers Sara Weisfeldt and Kate Tobin contributed to this report.
well yes the above article talks about the 10 th planet but in the Quran its written that there are 11 planets in th solar system right?

was there any source about this dream of Joseph's pbuh other than the Quran?

I was confused by the translations:


012.004
YUSUFALI: Behold! Joseph said to his father: "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"

PICKTHAL: When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

SHAKIR: When Yusuf said to his father: O my father! surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon-- I saw them making obeisance to me.

help me on this topic guys.

Salam Alaikum.
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minaz
07-30-2005, 06:58 PM
Lol I don't give a toss if there's 10/11/12 or 100 planets in our solar system, Our planet aint one community and when it is then I might consider the other "planets" - i'll probs be well dead by then!
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Link
07-30-2005, 07:25 PM
Assalamu alaicom

the eleven stars or planets r refering to his brothers i think
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-30-2005, 07:46 PM
:sl:
With regards to the ayat from the Qur'an, it can be translated as eleven stars or planets, the word is the same.

With regards to the number of planets in our solar system, there are debates because we don't have a standard definition of a planet.

:w:
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Bittersteel
07-30-2005, 10:00 PM
With regards to the ayat from the Qur'an, it can be translated as eleven stars or planets, the word is the same.
4. Ith qala yoosufu li-abeehi ya abati innee raaytu ahada AAashara kawkaban waalshshamsa waalqamara raaytuhum lee sajideena

which word?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-30-2005, 11:38 PM
:sl:
kawkaban=planets/stars
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Nakisai
07-30-2005, 11:58 PM
well that nice to know I think?
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Bittersteel
07-31-2005, 08:52 AM
yes
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Bittersteel
07-31-2005, 08:52 AM
yes this is a miracle of the Quran then?
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minaz
07-31-2005, 08:55 AM
Well let's not forget this is coming from "a Zionist controlled media" :p
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Bittersteel
07-31-2005, 09:03 AM
this too?
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minaz
07-31-2005, 09:11 AM
lol seeing as people on this forum say the western media is a "conspirers" and apply double standards, i'm just fighting back :D
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Muhammad
07-31-2005, 10:14 AM
:sl:

[12.100] And he raised his parents upon the throne and they fell down in prostration before him, and he said: O my father! this is the significance of my vision of old; my Lord has indeed made it to be true; and He was indeed kind to me when He brought me forth from the prison and brought you from the desert after the Shaitan had sown dissensions between me and my brothers, surely my Lord is benignant to whom He pleases; surely He is the Knowing, the Wise.

The verse above indicates the interpretation of Prophet Yusuf (AS)'s dream, that is when his family prostrate to him when they reunite. You can see at Tafsir.com that:

Yusuf's Dream
Allah says, `Mention to your people, O Muhammad, among the stories that you narrate to them, the story of Yusuf.' Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) mentioned his dream to his father, Prophet Ya`qub (Jacob), son of Prophet Ishaq (Isaac), son of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), peace be upon them all. `Abdullah bin `Abbas stated that the dreams of Prophets are revelations from Allah. Scholars of Tafsir explained that in Yusuf's dream the eleven stars represent his brothers, who were eleven, and the sun and the moon represent his father and mother. This explanation was collected from Ibn `Abbas, Ad-Dahhak, Qatadah, Sufyan Ath-Thawri and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam. Yusuf's vision became a reality forty years later, or as some say, eighty years, when Yusuf raised his parents to the throne while his brothers were before him,

I hope that helps to clear it up Insha'Allaah,
:w:
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root
07-31-2005, 10:24 AM
Now I am confused..............
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Muhammad
07-31-2005, 10:40 AM
Greetings,

Well what I am saying is that the 11 stars and the sun and the moon mentioned in the verse are actually a vision in the dream of Prophet Yusuf (as) and as mentioned above, dreams of Prophets are revelations from God. Thus the vision is directly referring to the incident which happens later on the story:

(and they fell down before him prostrate. And he said: "O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream aforetime! My Lord has made it come true!'')

So the verse is not actually directly talking about how many planets there are in the solar system... and Allaah Knows best.
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root
07-31-2005, 11:06 AM
Well what I am saying is that the 11 stars and the sun and the moon mentioned in the verse are actually a vision in the dream of Prophet Yusuf (as) and as mentioned above, dreams of Prophets are revelations from God. Thus the vision is directly referring to the incident which happens later on the story:

(and they fell down before him prostrate. And he said: "O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream aforetime! My Lord has made it come true!'')

So the verse is not actually directly talking about how many planets there are in the solar system... and Allaah Knows best.
OK, cool. But what baffles me is that 11 stars and the sun is too confusing. Our sun is a Star and a moon is a sattelite. Either way their is either 11 planets or not. Exactly what is the point of this thread, I don't see it.
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minaz
07-31-2005, 11:13 AM
We were (well muhammed did!) just clarifying it to abdul aziz that in the Qu'ranic verse it doesn't mention how many planets they are in the solar sytem
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Bittersteel
07-31-2005, 11:14 AM
that's why I started this thread...to get the correct meaniong an d a betetr understanding of this verse.

The site where I got it from says it some sorta sceintiic miracle.I was not sure and came here.............
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minaz
07-31-2005, 11:16 AM
And you were very right to do so
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root
07-31-2005, 11:19 AM
I am well aware that the Koran defines miracles after the fact has deen discovered, however. 11 planets is one post fact that should definately be dropped as an implied scientific miracle.
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Bittersteel
07-31-2005, 11:30 AM
11 planets is one post fact that should definately be dropped as an implied scientific miracle.
that site stated its some kind of miracle.it has been dropped.
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Abu Zakariya
07-31-2005, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by root
I am well aware that the Koran defines miracles after the fact has deen discovered, however. 11 planets is one post fact that should definately be dropped as an implied scientific miracle.
The verse that talks about 11 planets/stars isn't mentioning the amount of planets in the solar system or anything. It just desrcribes the dream of Yusuf. So I don't see how it should be desrcibed as a verse that mentiones the number of planets or anything?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-31-2005, 02:55 PM
:sl:
Rather than trying to interpret the verse into a scientific statement, we have to accept what was most likely the reality. Remember, the Qur'an is not making a statement that there are 11 planets/stars, rather it was saying that Yusuf (as) dreamed of 11 planets/stars. We should interpret this in the way Yusuf (as) would most likely have seen it, because he is the one relating his dream.

Thus, he distinguished between stars and the sun because of how it appeared to him in the dream. He would have seen 11 small luminous stars, a large reflective orb, and a large shining fiery orb. Thus, 11 stars, 1 moon, and 1 sun. This is also why the same word is used for planets and stars because they would have appeared very similar in the night sky.

:w:
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root
07-31-2005, 06:36 PM
Out of interest, what would we have made of things if their were 11 planets?

I would probably have been debating that it was not (Yet another) scientific miracle stated by the Koran!

:-)
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Nakisai
07-31-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by root
Now I am confused..............
you too
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Khattab
07-31-2005, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by root
Out of interest, what would we have made of things if their were 11 planets?

I would probably have been debating that it was not (Yet another) scientific miracle stated by the Koran!

:-)
The fact is it is not referring to the 11 planets so it doesnt really matter, but in all fairness and no disrespect intended debating whether the Quran has scientific miracles you have not done a very good job thus far convincing us, as it seems to be the same old anti-islamic claims that have been refuted.

Peace
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Muezzin
07-31-2005, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Rather than trying to interpret the verse into a scientific statement, we have to accept what was most likely the reality. Remember, the Qur'an is not making a statement that there are 11 planets/stars, rather it was saying that Yusuf (as) dreamed of 11 planets/stars. We should interpret this in the way Yusuf (as) would most likely have seen it, because he is the one relating his dream.

Thus, he distinguished between stars and the sun because of how it appeared to him in the dream. He would have seen 11 small luminous stars, a large reflective orb, and a large shining fiery orb. Thus, 11 stars, 1 moon, and 1 sun. This is also why the same word is used for planets and stars because they would have appeared very similar in the night sky.

:w:
:sl:

Good post. I agree. People (no one in particular, just people generally) need to chill and take things into perspective and in context when reading the Quran.

:w:
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czgibson
07-31-2005, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
With regards to the ayat from the Qur'an, it can be translated as eleven stars or planets, the word is the same.

With regards to the number of planets in our solar system, there are debates because we don't have a standard definition of a planet.

:w:
This is an interesting debate, I think. Some people say that Pluto is not a planet, it is just a ball of ice. But of course, what is a planet anyway?!

I'm surprised that the word for planets is the same as the word for stars. Surely they are clearly different?
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Muhammad
07-31-2005, 11:44 PM
Greetings,

I am well aware that the Koran defines miracles after the fact has deen discovered
For the people living in the time during which the Qur'an was revealed, they would have accepted all aspects of the Qur'an without a question of a doubt. Now that we have technology and further understanding in science, scientific facts mentioned in the Qur'an are able to be proven and can thus be understood as miracles in light of current knowledge. I don't know why you keep bringing this claim up, when you know perfectly well that the Qur'an has been revealed over 1400 years ago and thus it is actually the other way round: the fact has been stated BEFORE it has been discovered by mankind!

Regards.
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Nakisai
07-31-2005, 11:51 PM
my head hurts i'm going to something i can understand
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-01-2005, 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm surprised that the word for planets is the same as the word for stars. Surely they are clearly different?
Well, in terms of the old arabic they were the same, because they appeared the same to people at that time. In fact, in english, the only reason for the distinction between "planet" and "star" was that planets were those stars that "wandered" across the night sky.

ps. welcome to the forum. :)
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Bittersteel
08-01-2005, 06:22 AM
so those eleven planets weren't actually planets?I have got it.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-01-2005, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
so those eleven planets weren't actually planets?I have got it.
It was a dream brother, not a scientific description. He dreamed of 11 tiny bright orbs, a large reflective one, and a large fiery one.

So those eleven planets/stars do not need to correspond to real planets/stars. Just like in the other dream mentioned in the Surah, the fat cows and the lean cows do not need to correspond to real cows, instead they were symbolic of the upcoming years for the kingdom.

:w:
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czgibson
08-01-2005, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Well, in terms of the old arabic they were the same, because they appeared the same to people at that time. In fact, in english, the only reason for the distinction between "planet" and "star" was that planets were those stars that "wandered" across the night sky.

ps. welcome to the forum. :)
Thank you for the welcome.

Ah, I see. I had somehow assumed that Arabic had not changed, like the way the Qu'ran has not changed. In modern Arabic there is surely a distinction, though, isn't there?

I had forgotten the point you mention about the distinction in English - I now remember that astronomers used to talk about "the morning star" and "the evening star". It was an important day for them when they discovered that they are in fact the same thing - the planet Venus.
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Muezzin
08-01-2005, 09:19 PM
Speaking of Venus, here's a random picture of a mutated Venus Flytrap to brighten up the mood.



'Feed me! Feed me!'
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Bittersteel
08-01-2005, 10:28 PM
hahaha very funny brother stop it!
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-02-2005, 12:15 AM
Hi Callum,
I had forgotten the point you mention about the distinction in English - I now remember that astronomers used to talk about "the morning star" and "the evening star". It was an important day for them when they discovered that they are in fact the same thing - the planet Venus.
Good point, nicely spotted.

peace.
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azim
10-10-2006, 07:57 PM
Asalaamu alaykum.

Wow, things have changed since I was in school. We now have two more planets!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6037844.stm


I've heard the Quran say there are 11 planets (from the verse regarding Yusuf and the prostration of the sun, moon and 11 'stars').

Another ayaah of Allah?
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bint_muhammed
10-10-2006, 08:07 PM
amazing init!
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Fishman
10-10-2006, 08:12 PM
:sl:
I count dwarf planets as proper planets anyway. And I count Ceres as an asteroid.
:w:
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azim
10-10-2006, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I count dwarf planets as proper planets anyway. And I count Ceres as an asteroid.
:w:
Asalaamu alaykum.

Any reason why?

Wsalam.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-10-2006, 10:13 PM
:sl:

I think Yusuf a.s. saw 11 stars and the Sun and the Moon bowing down to him:



12 4. (Remember) when Yusuf (Joseph) said to his father: "O my father! Verily, I saw (in a dream) eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves to me."

Unless the arabic word can be translated to mean planets as well.

:w:
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badrulhisyam
10-11-2006, 01:06 AM
if it's stated in quran,then 11 it is.words of allah is words of truth.
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 01:12 AM
Do you guys really care if it is accurate or not? I mean what difference does it make? Does it put food in the mouth of any hungry Muslim children? Does it pay for the school books, or sooth the hurt of poor neglected or abused persons? Seems kinda inconsequential whether or not he said there were 11, 47 or 39 given that most of his people continue to live below the poverty line, many cannot read, and many live life's of fear for crossing the ruling regime in their respective nations.
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akulion
10-11-2006, 01:20 AM
yes ofcourse it matters

things have to be investigated to find their truths and falsehoods

after all we dont all wana end up worshipping a fat statue do we? ;)
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by akulion
yes ofcourse it matters

things have to be investigated to find their truths and falsehoods

after all we dont all wana end up worshipping a fat statue do we? ;)
Well, perhaps we could worship the beauty of the human spirit and the human mind? Indeed, perhaps those "fat statues" you refer to were artistic renderings of these very characteristics as manifest in the gift of human maternity?
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akulion
10-11-2006, 01:26 AM
worship human spirits and human minds?

nah - thats too fickle because to be honest human beings are no less than germs in this universe

we live on a speck of dust - it would be vain to worship our ownselves or our own abilities
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by akulion
worship human spirits and human minds?

nah - thats too fickle because to be honest human beings are no less than germs in this universe

we live on a speck of dust - it would be vain to worship our ownselves or our own abilities
Can you prove a force with greater creativity, more compassion, greater force of will, or more caprice than the human? Will you ask an empiricist to close his eyes when they can reveal to him marvels which his ears cannot reveal? Perhaps there is some greater force in the universe than the human, but presuming to understand such a force as that which might "create" the universe, would be similar in hubris to an amoeba presuming to understand a human.
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akulion
10-11-2006, 01:42 AM
I think you need to go outside and look at the wonderous sky and see the reality of things

those little stars you see up there - each is a Sun on its own with planets revolving around it :)

just imagine how small u and I are

if even after that u wish to think humanity is "so great" then i guess you can continue to live in the illusion or vanity that humanity is the greatest

And when you look at the sky you will see all the proof you want of greater creativity
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azim
10-11-2006, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
Do you guys really care if it is accurate or not? I mean what difference does it make? Does it put food in the mouth of any hungry Muslim children? Does it pay for the school books, or sooth the hurt of poor neglected or abused persons? Seems kinda inconsequential whether or not he said there were 11, 47 or 39 given that most of his people continue to live below the poverty line, many cannot read, and many live life's of fear for crossing the ruling regime in their respective nations.
Hi,

Taking the logic you applied to this discussion, it is equally pointless and futile for you to even make the above post.

It is definately important to remember the humans who are suffering around the globe, and to keep in mind that the majority of humans live in conditions much worse than our own, but we are not single-minded, one dimensional creatures. Our endeavours are varied and our goals different.

Acts of charity are of great importance in Islam, and in this month of Ramadan we are asked to be place even more importance upon. Yet to shun any other debate or discussion of issues away from topics such as what you mentioned is in itself futile - do you spend every moment of your life dedicated to helping these people? Of course not, it's physically and mentally impossible. We seek enjoyment and leisure, work and commerce, intellectual learning and debate and discussion of issues we consider interesting or important.

I commend your concern for those who have less than us, but there is no reason why any other activity should be ignored or shunned.

Peace.
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azim
10-11-2006, 08:48 PM
Asalaamu alaykum.

In reference to worshiping human spirit etc...

The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind, yet most of mankind know not. Surah 40, Verse 57

Peace.
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جوري
10-11-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
Do you guys really care if it is accurate or not? I mean what difference does it make? Does it put food in the mouth of any hungry Muslim children? Does it pay for the school books, or sooth the hurt of poor neglected or abused persons? Seems kinda inconsequential whether or not he said there were 11, 47 or 39 given that most of his people continue to live below the poverty line, many cannot read, and many live life's of fear for crossing the ruling regime in their respective nations.
Yes... we try to put food in the mouths of hungry young Muslim children... frequently uncle sam decided whom we should give our charity to...."Help for the Poor & Needy
Action Against Hunger • Red Cross New York • 12 Tips
• GRF banned • BIF banned • HLF banned • If you donated your zakat in last three months to any of these organizations, ask your Congressperson and senator to get Uncle Sam to return your money back to you." I believe the above speaks for itself...........
moreover we spend the entirety of the holy month of Ramadan not only sympathizing but empathizing with what it means to be cold, hungry, tired and impoverished... Question is... do you? Altruism is nice on paper but nicer in real life....
peace
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Ulysses
10-12-2006, 05:56 PM
My friends, the point I sought to make was simply this: Ancient statements about this or that trivia, are not nearly so important as are actions and words in the here and now.

There was an ancient Greek who established using geometic principles and some simple measurements of the shadow cast by vertical fence posts in Athens and Alexandria an estimate of the Earth's circumference that was within 1% of being correct! Truly an impressive feat of insight to have been achieved some 2200 years ago.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~...tosthenes.html

I would suggest to you that, the lesson which this scholar should provoke in we contemporary cyber-dwellers, is one of INSPIRATION to think critically, to explore intrepidly, and to keep an open and peaceful mind, not to worship or venerate Eratosthenes. I eagerly follow Eratosthenes _method_, procedure, or principles for striving toward englithtenment. But I draw the line when someone might suggest to me that blind adherence strictly to the way of Eratosthenese and only to Eratosthenes, or some form of worshipping of the man himself as some sort of a diety, is requisite to be a meritorious human. There have been MANY great humans throughout our natural history, and to fixate one's appreciation on any single one of them is a slippery slope toward ethnocentrism, fear and hatred.
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جوري
10-12-2006, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
My friends, the point I sought to make was simply this: Ancient statements about this or that trivia, are not nearly so important as are actions and words in the here and now..
You have to give up this clangorous need for self-righteousness, and humbug ... It is almost as if you wish to proudly display your ignorance.... someone who is simply unread !...
Our book is transcendent.......
Its miracles are for all ages...... in fact from that very chapter..... someone sought to find out what it is exactly in Joseph's shirt that made Jacob regain his sight back ... an Egyptian doctor! And what do you know he has found a secret in sweat that might cure glaucoma! truly its wonders never cease!
The provided link just gives a glimpse at a few of the miracles from our "antique book" that weren't even appreciated in Shakespearean time, nor the height of renaissance!..... written by a former priest... Dr Gary Miller.
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=90

Originally Posted by Ulysses
There was an ancient Greek who established using geometic principles and some simple measurements of the shadow cast by vertical fence posts in Athens and Alexandria an estimate of the Earth's circumference that was within 1% of being correct! Truly an impressive feat of insight to have been achieved some 2200 years ago...
That doesn't sound nearly as impressive as the water clock given to Charlemagne. by Haroun al-Raschid in 802 that marked the hours by dropping bronze balls into a bowl, as mechanical knights — one for each hour — emerged from little doors which shut behind them. The presents were unprecedented in Western Europe and may have influenced Carolingian art. Sent Chalemagene's court men affright ... thinking it witch craft.... such as one of the many things the Muslim Empire gave the west which dwelled in the dark ages only to bite the hand that enlightened it later down the line...
that along with many other Islamic inventions can be found in
http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309

http://www.bsn.org.uk/view_all.php?id=11433


That plus the ancient Egyptians were still far more impressive than the Greeks... the Temple of abu symbul for example is so mathematically accurate as to allow the sun to shine on the face of the king only twice a year! So come impress with something.. well more impressive... I know you think we sit in a madrassa all day learning how to make bombs because we hate your "freedom".... it is good not to under estimate the intelligence of your cyber counterparts...from the wealth of abbasids empire, to Rimbaud's drunken boat, to Proust, to Rumi to Carrvagio, to Correggio, to Rothko, to Behcet's Disease, to the latest technique replacing fundoplication, to your own congenital adrenal hyperplasia..... I have never read anything, that has impressed me, touched my heart, or captured my soul..... as our Noble Quran!...No human life and achivement more impressive than God's messangers especially the seal of the prophet peace be upon all of them!

Originally Posted by Ulysses
I would suggest to you that, the lesson which this scholar should provoke in we contemporary cyber-dwellers, is one of INSPIRATION to think critically, to explore intrepidly, and to keep an open and peaceful mind, not to worship or venerate Eratosthenes. I eagerly follow Eratosthenes _method_, procedure, or principles for striving toward englithtenment. But I draw the line when someone might suggest to me that blind adherence strictly to the way of Eratosthenese and only to Eratosthenes, or some form of worshipping of the man himself as some sort of a diety, is requisite to be a meritorious human. There have been MANY great humans throughout our natural history, and to fixate one's appreciation on any single one of them is a slippery slope toward ethnocentrism, fear and hatred.
I would suggest you stop making suggestions.....read a little about islamic history, islamic science, civilization http://www.cyberistan.org/
.... Whom exactly we worship....whom we honor (messengers) wise before you strut your stuff with pompous vocabulary to hide the heaps of fluff that lurks beneath!.... There is that sliver of a chance we have seen and heard and read it all and still Muslim by choice!
Just because your current climate doesn't foster grounds to educate you on Islam the world's 2nd largest religion, and you deem yourself well learned man at the zenith of his craft with decorated words meant to deny us our achivements throughout history and our accolades.... don't think I don't read what is dished out there, but it doesn't mean that Islam wasn't a force to be reckoned with and Inshallah shall be again!.......
If the world has seen the mountains it is because they stood on the shoulders of Giants........
Before for instance suggesting to a woman to take off her head scarf as in your previous infamous posts..... because it is uncivilized or denying her right to self expression in nakedville....
suggest that same wisdom to
cancer patients
surgeons
Orthodox Jewish women
Nuns
people who take a dive into the pools
those who are making a fashion statement....because otherwise we would deem you a hypocrite....

Before you point out the ills of our culture or religion ... be well versed in yours...... and ours ..... and then again ... come here grab our primitive hands and lead us with your ever noble altruism, into the 21st century from the cesspools in which we collectively dwell.

in closure..... I leave you with this, from the noble Quran....
"And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE RED HIDE - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)"

Note: The Noble Verse in Arabic says: "Fa-itha inshaqqati alssamao fakanat wardatan kaalddihani" "Wardatan" is derived from the root word "Warda", which literally means "rose" or "flower".
our messanger wasn't an astronmer, nor was he a sea captain, nor was he a pulmonolgist, nor was he an embryologist.... yet all is mentioned in that book you deem primitive....... they accuse people on various blogs that we don't think for ourselves..... yet that is exactly what our noble book tell us to do..... contemplate our creation, the universe around, and seek knowledge, from the cradle to the grave! He Mohammed (PBUH) is the seal of the prophet and a mercy to mankind....... Islam isn't a monolithic religion.... and we don't worship men.... we worship God... creator of heaven and earth ...... that will stand ... even after the industrialized world bombs itself in a big mushroom cloud..... it will stand if this earth collapses upon itself...... it will stand when democracy gets replaced by a monarchy or an oligarchy, or whatever the pseudo- enlightened illuminati decide is hip for the century.....




peace
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-12-2006, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
My friends, the point I sought to make was simply this: Ancient statements about this or that trivia, are not nearly so important as are actions and words in the here and now.
6:25. And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."

26. And they prevent others from him (from following Prophet Muhammad ) and they themselves keep away from him, and (by doing so) they destroy not but their ownselves, yet they perceive (it) not.
Reply

Ulysses
10-17-2006, 09:31 PM
Evidently, the assertion being made is that, because I have not read (if not memorized) and do not quote the Qu'ran, I am unwise. Indeed, it would seem from the texts being quoted above, that it is being implied that I am a sacrilegious dissembler of your faith.

There are so many books which I have read, that I could suggest to you, not the least of which would be:

"The Art of Living" by Goenka

However, I would never resort to claims that any single book could possibly answer all questions, provide all guidance a person might need, or be the ultimate perfect source of wisdom. That it would seem to me, strikes very close to fetishistic idolatry.

My friends, the point I sought to make was simply this: Ancient statements about this or that trivia, are not nearly so important as are actions and words in the here and now.

6:25. And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."
There is a subtle distinction in what I have said and the message of the text from the Qu'ran which you have provided. Let us examine and compare these texts closely. I said:

"Ancient statements about this or that trivia, are not nearly so important as are actions and words in the here and now"

Your citation says:

"disbelievers say: 'These are nothing but tales of the men of old.'"

The difference in what I have said, and what you have quoted is critical to understand. I said "not nearly so important as are actions." Your quote says "nothing but tales."

In the instance of my statement, I have not resorted to an absolute defamation of ancient texts, but rather, I have stated that ancient texts are not relatively as important as are actions in the hear and now. This statment is not well-represented in the quoted passage which asserts that disbelievers will assert the utter refutation of the beliefs in question as being "nothing but tales."

It is not necessary to regard an ancient text as "nothing but tales" to appreciate the point I am making. My point is simply that, actions and words in the here and now are relatively MORE important than are ancient texts which make wide-open references which could be used to promote a wide range of interpretations.

Which brings me back to the original question I posted. Do any of these ancient proclamations stop Sunnis and Shia's from kiling each other in Baghdad, or in a myriad of ways prevent suffering of Muslims in the here and now?
Reply

جوري
10-17-2006, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
Evidently, the assertion being made is that, because I have not read (if not memorized) and do not quote the Qu'ran, I am unwise. Indeed, it would seem from the texts being quoted above, that it is being implied that I am a sacrilegious dissembler of your faith.
Important to read and discern before you memorize...... what is the point of memorizing if it falls on a deadened heart? I get more emotion from an Allan Cunningham poem than I do your bombastic words.....other than that I don't really care what you are being ... you do yourself a gross injustice when you venture into a sphere outside your area of expertise ... how can you critique that which you haven't read?

Originally Posted by Ulysses
There are so many books which I have read, that I could suggest to you, not the least of which would be:

"The Art of Living" by Goenka.
As could I really..........
Sacred Images and Sacred Power in Byzantium (Variorum Collected Studies Series, 778) by Gary Vikan.......exciting, as are his live lectures at the Walters...... but why be terribly presumptuous of me to guess as to where your interests lie?

Originally Posted by Ulysses
However, I would never resort to claims that any single book could possibly answer all questions, provide all guidance a person might need, or be the ultimate perfect source of wisdom. That it would seem to me, strikes very close to fetishistic idolatry..
I would.... as this is no ordinary book...... authored by God and is immaculate........
Reply

Ulysses
10-17-2006, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
That plus the ancient Egyptians were still far more impressive than the Greeks...
Is there some connection between ancient Egypt and Islam of which I am unaware? Indeed, Egypt was converted to Islam several hundred years ago, but I doubt that the Pyramids or other ancient Egyptian desiderati have much to do with a prophet who was borne hundreds of years later, eh? Or are you implying that ancient Egyptian mythos is actually a precursor of Islam?

I would suggest you stop making suggestions . . .
Why? Does it bother you that I make suggestions that are perhaps counter to certain dogma? Do the questions I ask make you uncomfortable? Do you dislike me because I have not read the same books as you? Do you judge me as being profane because I do not believe the same myths as you? Do you hate me because you imagine me to be of a different race, creed, or color than you? Or does it simply annoy you that I am free to be here along with you, an infidel posting next to a scion of perfection?

.. wise before you strut your stuff with pompous vocabulary to hide the heaps of fluff that lurks beneath!....
Pot? Kettle? :uuh:

don't think I don't read what is dished out there, but it doesn't mean that Islam wasn't a force to be reckoned with and Inshallah shall be again!.......
It always comes down to irredentist vindictiveness doesn't it? It would almost be humorous if not so macabre.

Before you point out the ills of our culture or religion ... be well versed in yours...... and ours
Are there any ills in your perfect cultures or religions of peace? That would seem to be an internal contradiction, no?

You seem so defensive about your beliefs? And yet, at the same time, so quick to state your self-assurance. It reminds me of the children who bullied the other one's when I was a little girl back in Cornwall.
Reply

Ulysses
10-17-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
how can you critique that which you haven't read?
Have I critiqued? I do not mean to critique the Qu'ran, which would indeed be rash of me given that I have not, and do not intend to read it any time in the near future (far too much else to read I am afraid). All I have sought to do is ask a simple rational question: is it as important what was written down several hundred years ago, as is what is done today?

but why be terribly presumptuous of me to guess as to where your interests lie?
And suggesting that I must read the Qu'ran in order to be wise is not presumptuous?

I would.... as this is no ordinary book...... authored by God and is immaculate........
That may be, but it is probably not possible to prove it to someone who does not believe it. Consequently, the asserted sacred origins of the text strikes me as being irrelevant for promoting a world of peace, compared to the potential value of the content and/or principles of the message, as well as the actions performed in reference to the message, putative or not.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-17-2006, 10:08 PM
:sl:

Are there any ills in your perfect cultures or religions of peace? That would seem to be an internal contradiction, no?
Nope, Islam is perfect, without one error and without a single contradiction.

Your fallacy is that you are judging a religion by a mere few followers. I wouldnt have expected that from someone like you who is seemingly educated. You are incapable of seperating the two.

My point is simply that, actions and words in the here and now are relatively MORE important than are ancient texts which make wide-open references which could be used to promote a wide range of interpretations.
False. This "text" has been used everyday by millions over a millinium and a half. You come here and tell us its not important. Go educate yourself, please.

You have no right to tell us what is important to us in our religion and what is not. Your attempts to teach us our religion is amusing.

Have I critiqued? I do not mean to critique the Qu'ran, which would indeed be rash of me given that I have not, and do not intend to read it any time in the near future (far too much else to read I am afraid). All I have sought to do is ask a simple rational question: is it as important what was written down several hundred years ago, as is what is done today?
Then you had better refrain from making comments on it from now until you do because that will just highlight your ignorance.

That may be, but it is probably not possible to prove it to someone who does not believe it.
Nope. Not possible to prove to someone whose heart is closed and comes to learn with a set agenda. They will never consider it even if the proofs are right in front of their eyes.
Reply

Ulysses
10-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Fascinating. So I am ignorant for asking questions, and the answers to all my questions are to be answere by reading the Qu'ran.

I'm curious is there a word in Arabic that corresponds to the following word in English?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogma

dog·ma (dôgm, dg-)
n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m-t)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present" Abraham Lincoln.
Reply

جوري
10-17-2006, 10:33 PM
Would really love to tackle your post(S) piece by piece ... but you dear sir have gotten the better of me ... as you seem to have lots more free time on your hands than I do.......

So will give you the disjointed version and you can pretty it up in your animated mind!

1- Why have I stuck the Egyptians in there?..... well, I guess for the same reason you stuck in the Greeks ... it wasn't tied in all that well in your argument..... left for the reader to decipher what he may! You seem to be a man who can put two and two together?! Draw your own conclusions!

2- Of your incessant confabulation in which you freely use the term "infidel" to describe yourself, it would be note worthy, for you to direct your thanks to Pope Urbane the II who evoked the notion in order to wage his crusades against Muslims. I'd feel a lot less cavalier about using it, to evoke some sour cord on how intolerant we are. lest God forbid one of us takes you back down history lane......

3- Our ancient text again is ver much relevant today, in fact I can't think of a situation that isn't covered in there..... from divorce to women's rights to inheritance to charity to the ethics of war...... and to answer your Q not only does Islam condemn sectarianism it condemns sectarian wars.... The more people turn away from the book in favor of "modern thinking" the likes which you sport, the more they end up divided, the more they want to get back to their tribal barbaric roots which were abolished by Islam.
On a total side note (4 out of every 5 converts are women) if it were a religion as oppressive and backward as you are painting it..... why would these seemingly intelligent women go with their own two feet into the abyss of oppression?

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm#Converts

4- You are not offering anything multidimentional to turn our heads, I'd be the first to jump on it gleefully ... neither are not counteracting any dogmas ... you'd do good to wage war against certain cultural ideologies which is the Achilles of the Arabic world and certainly the fall of many, but certainly not Islam, I maintain that it is immaculate and I can stand by it ... but from the looks of things you are not interested in our outdated text....

5- I have a couple of theories about you too ... and I am actually licensed to pass the diagnosis ...but since you didn't come crying for help, I will refrain as Islam has taught me better manners!
The Prophet said: 'Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not trouble his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should say what is good, or be silent.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim).

6-In no way am I suggesting that you read the Quran, What a joke... Your entire arguments seem to dance around our dated texts and its culpable dogma... I merely raise the point that if you wish to discuss its ills, that you'd at least get a clue, as to its content... wouldn't be wise of me to discuss your "Art of living" not knowing whether it is a cook book or a book on rare tropical disease, would it?
I mean seriousely what do you base your opinion on?

7- Lots of people have proven the Quran is the word of God ... why even the catholic encyclopedia thinks it is a conundrum ... not knowing exactly where it came from?........ couldn't have been the illitrate prophet Mohammed (PBUH)........ talk about your unbiased source...

8- The word in Arabic that corresponds to Dogma is 'Aqeedah .......

You can use the search feature to cover an array of wide topics here, before you venture into a new barrage of tasteless comments ... and I still maintain that you have this obstinate need for self-righteousness..... it is really embarrassing to go to class feigning a knowing satisfaction, when you have only read the cliff notes and heard the opinion of your fellow classmates......
Peace


With this post I hope to resign........ been wonderful being here... the forum has been a vortex as of late and I wish to take sometime off to reflect, to prostrate and to grow.........
Eid Mubarrak
fi aman illah to ikhwani and akhwati Almoslmeen.... ra7mat Allah wabrakato Alykoum ajma'een insh'Allah..........
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-17-2006, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
Fascinating. So I am ignorant for asking questions, and the answers to all my questions are to be answere by reading the Qu'ran.

I'm curious is there a word in Arabic that corresponds to the following word in English?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogma
No. You are ignorant for making comments of the Quran, for making comments of the religion, and for making comments of its people without a shred of evidence to prove your claims. You have never asked questions, except that it has been answered respectfully. See:
You asked respectfully: http://www.islamicboard.com/515346-post3.html
You were answered respectfully: http://www.islamicboard.com/515365-post4.html

You asked respectfully: http://www.islamicboard.com/515418-post19.html

You were answered respectfully: http://www.islamicboard.com/515547-post24.html

Its when you ignored those replies and started posting your views of Islam without asking if they were factually correct that you were called ignorant.

Please dont act like you're here to learn. That facade was over after 10 of your posts.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
12-07-2006, 07:19 AM
:sl:

This is a good Islamic article on the subject.
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=870

The Number of Planets in the Solar System
| Prepared by the Research Committee of IslamToday.net under the supervision of Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî|

In the Qur’ân, Joseph relates a dream to his father wherein he sees eleven planets, the Sun, and the Moon all prostrating themselves to him. Some Muslims have recently suggested taking this as evidence that our Solar System has eleven planets. This is especially the case after the recent discovery of Eris, and (as a consequence of that discovery) the International Astronomical Union re-designating planetary bodies in the Solar System so that it officially recognizes eight planets and three dwarf planets.

In this article, we will be discussing the claim that the Qur’ân suggests the existence of eleven planets in our Solar System.

Discussing the Verse
Allah says: “When Joseph said to his father: ‘O my father! I have seen eleven planets and the Sun and Moon. I have seen them prostrate themselves to me.’ Said (the father): ‘My small son! Do not relate your dream to your brothers, lest they concoct a plan against you, for Satan is to man an avowed enemy.” [Sûrah Yûsuf: 4-5]

This was a dream that Prophet Joseph (peace be upon him) had when he was a boy. The eleven planets represented his brothers. This is why Joseph’s father Jacob (peace be upon him), who understood the meaning of the dream, warned Joseph not to relate the dream to his brothers.

Indeed, the Qur’ân tells us the meaning of the dream in a later verse of the same chapter that depicts an event that took place much later in Joseph’s life. Allah says: “And he raised his parents high on the throne and they fell down in prostration before him. He said: ‘O my father! This is the fulfillment of my vision of old! Allah has made it come true!” [Sûrah Yûsuf: 100]

Ibn Kathîr writes:

In Joseph’s dream the eleven stars represent his brothers, who were eleven, and the Sun and the Moon represent his father and mother. This explanation was given by Ibn `Abbâs, al-Dahhâk, Qatâdah, Sufyân al-Thawrî and `Abd al-Rahmân b. Zayd b. Aslam. Joseph’s vision became a reality forty years later – or as some say, eighty years – when Yusuf raised his parents to the throne while his brothers were before him.

This is what the dream represented. It was in no way detailing a point of astronomy.

Moreover, even if we were to assume that the eleven planets that Joseph (peace be upon him) saw in his dream were the images of real heavenly bodies, Joseph mentions them in an absolute, unqualified sense. There is nothing in the verse to indicate that those eleven are the only planets in existence, or that those planets refer specifically to objects within our Solar System, or even that they refer to planets as astronomers define them today.

We must also realize that at the time the Qur’ân was reveled, the Arabic word used in the verse – kawkab – was used to refer to stars as well as to what we consider planets. Restricting the word kawkab to mean planets as opposed to stars was a much later development. In the dictionary al-Qamûs al-Muhît (131), al-Fayrûzabâdî defines a kawkab as a “star” (najm), and indeed the word kawkab was traditionally used interchangeably with najm.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that the verse is not at all addressing the question of how many planets are in the Solar System. The verse is simply referring to Joseph’s dream vision where his brothers appear as celestial bodies. Islam has no doctrinal stance on the matter.

The Number of Planets in the Solar System is a Question of Terminology
In the field of Astronomy, the number of planets in the Solar System is primarily a question of nomenclature. It depends on two things:

(1) What we observe in space and the discoveries that we make

(2) How we wish to define a planet.

In ancient times, people defined planets as: any celestial object that travels in a regularly repeating path through the Earth’s night sky. Indeed, in ancient Greek, the word planet means “wanderer”. Based on this definition, the ancients counted seven planets: the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

This definition suited the level of astronomical knowledge that the ancients had and also was in harmony with the idea that the Earth was the center of the universe, because a planet could just as easily be defined as “any object in orbit around the Earth”.

When the heliocentric (Sun-centered) model was adopted, astronomers felt that they needed to revise the definition of a planet. The name planet was retained, but it was redefined to mean: “any object in a regular orbit around the Sun”. Consequently, the Sun and Moon were no longer counted as planets. Earth was counted as a planet instead. This led to a total of six planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

When Uranus was discovered in 1781, the number of planets increased to seven. When Neptune was discovered in 1846, the number again increased to eight. These increases were the result of new discoveries, and not of a change in definition.

The definition of a planet as “any object in a regular orbit around the Sun” remained in force until the mid-1800s. Therefore, when the small object Ceres was discovered between Mars and Jupiter in the year 1801, it was considered a planet, which brought the total to nine. When more small objects (known as 2 Pallas, 3 Juno and 4 Vesta) were discovered in similar orbits, they brought the grand total of objects defined as planets to twelve. The twelve planets remained standard in astronomy books until the mid-1800s.

As more small bodies were discovered between Mars and Jupiter, astronomers became dissatisfied with referring to the members of this swarm of objects as planets. Instead, they reclassified all of these objects as asteroids in an “Asteroid Belt”, reducing the number of objects recognized as planets back down to eight.

Then, in 1930, Pluto was discovered beyond the orbit of Neptune, bringing the total of planets up to nine. This remained the case for the remainder of the twentieth century, throughout which schoolchildren all learned about the “nine planets”.

Certain discoveries were made that challenged Pluto’s status as a planet. For one thing, astronomers realized that Pluto is much smaller than originally assumed. It is smaller, in fact, than our Moon. However, this alone was not enough to challenge its status as a planet. Though Pluto is smaller than Earth’s Moon, it is still much larger than the largest asteroid, Ceres.

Then, starting in the late 20th century, other objects comparable in size to Pluto (but all at least somewhat smaller) were discovered beyond the orbit of Neptune. Astronomers recognized that there exists a belt of such objects, and referred to it as the Kuiper Belt. None of these new objects were regarded as planets, but as “Kuiper Belt objects”. Some astronomers began to argue that Pluto should not be classified as a planet either, but should rather be regarded as the largest known Kuiper Belt object.

This let to heated debates among astronomers as to whether Pluto should be considered a planet, and consequently whether there were eight or nine known planets in the Solar System. The debate came to a head in 2005 when Eris, an object larger and more distant than Pluto, was discovered.

The International Astronomical Union decided it was high time to come up with a precise definition of a planet. A number of proposed definitions were debated, and on August 24, 2006, the following resolutions were adopted:

1. A planet of our Solar System was redefined to mean a celestial body that

(a) is in orbit around the Sun

(b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (a nearly round) shape

(c) has cleared the neighborhood around its orbit

This definition disqualifies Pluto as a planet, since Pluto shares its orbital region with a number of similar objects.

2. A new term, dwarf planet, was adopted for objects like Pluto. A dwarf planet is defined as a celestial body that:

(a) is in orbit around the Sun

(b) has sufficient mass for its self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that it assumes a hydrostatic equilibrium (a nearly round) shape

(c) has not cleared the neighborhood around its orbit

This definition applies to a number of round objects orbiting beyond Neptune as well as to Ceres, the largest object in the Asteroid Belt. However, at present the International Astronomical Union has only officially classified three objects as dwarf planets: Ceres, Pluto, and Eris. Nevertheless, many other known objects are expected to be classified as dwarf planets in the near future.

Consequently, there are at present eight known planets according to the new definition. They are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

Also, there are a large number of known dwarf planets, three of which have already been officially declared as such and many others which are awaiting classification. Among the objects that are expected to be officially classified as dwarf planets in the near future are: Orcus, Quaoar, Sedna, Varuna, 2003 EL61, 2005 FY9, Ixion, and possibly Charon.

Therefore, the present grand total of eleven (planets + dwarf planets together) is only temporary, since the official classification of other known dwarf planets is simply a matter of procedure. Also, astronomers expect to discover many other large, round objects beyond Neptune’s orbit, since such discoveries have been considerable in recent years.

Conclusions
This shows us quite clearly how dangerous it is to try and interpret verses of the Qur’ân to express meanings that those verses do not express. Unfortunately, some people today have the habit of advancing such interpretations in hopes of establishing the existence of certain scientific facts or recent theories in the Qur’ân.

As we have seen, the number of planets in our Solar System is not only the result of discoveries, but is also a consequence of changing definitions of what a planet is. As other planets are discovered, the number of planets changes. Also, we have seen that whenever we have learned something new about the composition of our Solar System, astronomers have felt the need to revise the very definition of a planet.

Therefore, there is as yet no absolute and final answer regarding the number of planets in our solar system, since the very definition of a planet is something imprecise. There are many different types of celestial bodies in our solar system so that, regardless of what definition scientists might adopt, there will always be borderline cases that challenge our attempts at classification. Allah has created a universe of wondrous variety.
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