reply to ranma1/2:New atheists in the woods....

[ajazz]

Assalamalikum!
This is my post from another froum

A reply to an atheist .I apologizes for the sarcasm and slang that I have used. It is used just to show the kind of attitude I faced when explaining Islam. My English is not very good I avoided making mistakes as much as possible but if you still find some just ignore it.


Dear brother mughal from what I could gather about you, You seem to be an intelligent and thinking man, but it seems you went so deep in thinking and finding answers That you have gone astray, there are many reverts to Islam who in their ignorance hated Islam with all their heart one such brother was “AbdAllah - Journey from Hinduism” – who said he would rather die than convert to Islam. You can download his video at http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/...p?name=Downloa ds&d_op=viewdownload&cid=61

I don’t have as much knowledge as you have, but, Allah thankfully has given me more intelligence and power of reasoning than some of the cousins of apes. (Darwin lovers)


I don’t know whether I will be able to convince you or not, its upto Allah, but anyway here we go….


Let’s leave religion aside for a movement and ask ourselves does god exist?

One way we can say every creation has a creator right?
Wrong!
Everything that is not man made has a creator and he is one and only, Allah. So man is also creator he/she has also created things like cars, planes, not to forget nuclear bombs and many other things right?
Wrong!

Man is not a creator he cannot create, he/she only has the power to convert (that also limited) one thing into another like taking things that already exist and making different types of things from it. Man cannot create a single atom. To create means to produce things out of nothing and it is only Allah that can do it. He just has to say be and it is. (word manipulators, twisters and truth benders please note god has no gender,” he “Is just used here for a reference and don’t ask me why not she unless you belong to the federation of feminist apes.)Even if we say that every creation has a creator, than who created god?
Please, from the colony of apes you must now cross over to the colony of humans, Allah honors us by saying that humans are the best of his creation. Because we have intelligence and logic, so if every creation has a creator we run around in a circle, like some apes do, stop!
Since creation like planets, humans and other things exist which cannot be denied the logical and rational Explanation is that there already exists some thing from which everything came and nobody created it
And that my fellow human beings and also some beings that are in process of crossing over to human race, is Allah the eternal god.

.Oh! I hear some apes growling, man they are after my blood, and they want to tear me apart Drink my blood, and they are shouting Evolution! Evolution! What is evolution anyway? Well! It is certainly not a strict Christian school where small little monkeys are evolved into big intelligent rational thinking apes. Well! Then what it is Mikey?
Evolution
is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations. So evolution has stages, so counting backwards From last stage then stages previous to the last one then again another stage previous to the last one… Come-on go on, go on….Man I’m tired this is it, this is the first stage. This tiny itsy bitsy cell organism or what ever it is this is where evolution started.

Well, who created this first stage, if it really happened this way? Dam!
Back to running in circle like apes.

Elementary my dear ape-son, elementary! Make a wild guess with your pea size intelligence its Allah the eternal god!
That’s right, and let me tell you what you didn’t win a twenty volume encyclopedia on monkey brain Also you have not won a years supply of free bananas that’s not all you have also not won a free trip to the planet of apes!

Knock! Knock! Whose there? Son you don’t know us? Who monkey brains?

We the scientist, the most intelligent of the species. We can prove anything; we have formulas, theories and assumptions And if we prove some things after sometime we go back to our thinking board And prove new things that proves that our earlier proof was not really sound proof You see we keep on discovering new evidence things changes so we also must not be Consistent We can prove that a^ 2 + b^2 = c ^2
You mean monkey brains ^ 2 + intelligence ^ 2 = moron ^2
What about god?
Son there is no god and we have no formula for god. We have proof for everything and what we cannot explain we have theories.

So sir how our earth came into being? Well, in the beginning there was a mass of gaseous state And then there was a big bang
You mean like a monkey fart when it has a sever case of indigestion Because it cannot digest the food of rational and logical thinking!
You just listen, boy!Ok.After the fart, err… we mean explosion, This matter was scattered and formed planets, sun and stars The earth began spinning and it cooled down and water was formed and by chance/accident That bloody tiny itsy bitsy cell organism or whatever came into existence And blah, blah, blah….


Ok, you said in the beginning, what was there before the beginning?
Dam!
You said by chance/accident life began. So? Well I have a collection of delicate and beautiful glasses, they are about a million trillion in numbers

Now, I am going to drop them one by one on the ground what will happen to them? Err... They will break into tiny pieces. You just wait! I am ready to drop all my collection but tell me when this glass instead of breaking into tiny pieces, when will they by chance/accident will be transformed into small pieces of beautiful glass with intricate design on them.

Hey you! Don’t run just wait! From where this gaseous matter came from?
Dam!

You know son we discover new things everyday and when we know where the gaseous matter came from we will contact you, say about in trillion years


.Move away you as***les let me enter I am the big daddy of all the monkey brains from the planet of apes, I am atheist the numb brain, let me first start with abusing, insulting, making fun, twisting facts
.Let me put on my brain numbing cap, before I show this ajazz the terrorist his right place Tell me how many people you Muslim terrorist killed

Let’s see, about three thousand on 9/11

You liar, you cheater, how can you include those there is no clear evidence that you Dimwit terrorist can carry out such a large and sophisticated plan you; you have no brains like us
.Ok let’s see we kill on daily basis the Iraqis dozens and dozens of them you! You small scale terrorist how can you take credit for such brilliant plan Don’t you know people question why Iraqis want to kill their own brothers and sisters and children? I will let you on a little secret; it’s our brother in arms the Israelis and CIA this is a beautiful plan to divide the country into smaller parts so we can rule it easily. Don’t you dare camper yourself with us? We have our George holy missile Bush he alone killed thousands and thousands of you in Iraq and Afghanistan, that to sitting in his comfortable office and while playing golf You see this is how things are done you can learn from us, but you are too dimwit. We the powerful nation we obliterated millions of Japanese Do you want more examples, take it Vietnam, Korea so don’t you dare compare yourself with us, You! You miniscule terrorist. We are the big daddy! Now bring on your freaking questions

Ok.
Something about god.

Who? WHO? WHO? WHO? WHO? WHO? WHO?

Err…just cool down ok, have a banana juice. You numskull, dip sh*t desert rat. (By the way I’m an Indian rat) Don’t you know we only believe when we see with our own eyes, hear with our own ears, feel with our own hands, and smell with our own nose?

When we fart the smell goes through our own nose and then enters our brain enlightening us. This is what we believe in, testing evidence.
You mean if I switch off your taste buds and put off lights and offer you Darwin sh*t instead of Jello beans and you know what Jello beans taste like. You will gladly eat it because you are hungry?

You want to see god, your freaking button eyes are unable to see the infrared rays that are emitted from the TV remote, but they exist and you freaking cannot deny it.
Dam!
You want to hear god, your freaking ears cannot hear the dog whistle because it is beyond you hearing range, but you cannot deny it
Dam!
You want to touch god, you cannot put your bloody hand in boiling water for few minutes
Dam! Dam! Dam! Don’t you worry we will come back let us think new ways to twist, manipulate, Invent lies and then we will come back to you, we never change we have our blinkers firmly fixed by superglue
.Knock! Knock!

Not again Who is it?
Peace and blessing!
Oh no! , Miniscule terrorist?
No, just a regular guy with average intelligence and logical mind. Who does not think toooo deep, just enough to be counted among human race


.The deeper you dive less the chances of you surfacing. Man,

You are, miniscule terrorist go away! You have a very bad reputation

Listen there are lies and dam lies and there are statistics
so you are goanna answer the questions?
I will try my best take it or leave it
Ok, is there a god?

Why there shouldn’t be god? All logical explanation and circumstantial evidence points towards him. Circumstantial what’s that?

First you must leave all your prejudice in your bag. You must reflect and wonder at the things god created the universe the stars, our earth, our surroundings. Allah says if you want proof why you don’t look at his creation just think about it.

Have you wondered how small the atom is there are millions of them on a pin head Even atoms are made of smaller parts know as electrons and neutrons and who knows there may be further division of them
. Now look at the sun. The Sun's diameter is 864,938 miles (1,391,980 km).It would take 109 earths to stretch across the sun, and it would take over one million earths to "fill up" the sun if it were hollow. The great star Betelgeuse is about 700 times bigger than our Sun (and roughly 50 times as massive). Betelgeuse is also about 14,000 times brighter than the Sun. Light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles a second or 700 million miles an hour The distance light can travel in a year is called a "light year." The light year is one of the basic measures of distance for astronomy. Light coming from the sun takes eight and one half minutes to hit Earth. (This means that if the sun were suddenly to go dark, it would take over eight minute for us to notice)Light from the nearest stars, other than the sun, takes four and a half years to get here. From the farthest stars in distant galaxies it can take billions of years for the light to arrive.

Allah challenges the humans to try and travel in space to reach to the end of the universe And Allah says you will only be able to do it with special power and permission from him

Everything in this world has a purpose right from an atom to the huge stars. And everything works according to the rules laid down by Allah. The purpose of the sun is to give energy to the earth so that life can be sustained on earth. The sun does its job without rebelling day in and day out. The earth is tilted towards its axis precisely as it should be and it rotates and travels precisely in an orbit as it should, so that life on earth can be supported. Imagine if earth suddenly slows down what will happen? But it does not because it cannot disobey the command of Allah. Allah has laid for it rules on how it should behave and it does just that. If you want to further enlightened yourself watch national geographic channel or better still visit the website www.harunyahya.com

Bloody nonsense! Crap! Go tell this to your mama. I don’t believe this mumbo jumbo

.Blinkers! Blinkers! Firmly placed by superglue

Man! All this reflect, enlighten, bullsh*t, I am no philosopher or great thinker man“Just think about it” just think about my ass.I want to see god plain and simple, got it?

Ok let me get down to your level of intelligence. Allah says in the holly Quran :( So I do call to witness what ye see* and what ye see not) (SURAH AL HAKAH:54)

Our eyes even though amazing piece of creation has a great limitation. There are many, many things that are going on around us which we are unable to notice because they are happening so fast or so slow. Only if we record it with special cameras and slow down or speed up the frame rate of the video we are able to see the wonders of Allah’s creation. The best part is if there is no light we can’t see a freaking thing!

Allah says that those he misguides he puts a veil over their eyes. Therefore for a believer the truth of Allah is a plain truth. But for the unbelievers it is the opposite that he sees. Today the scientists are trying to do what Allah does so flawlessly. (They will not succeed unless Allah wills)

Our eyes convert the visual image into electrical signals which are feed to the brain.So our brain actually sees and not our eyes!

Scientists today are trying to inject electrical signals directly to the brain bypassing the eye.Can you imagine the possibility of use and abuse that can take place if the scientists succeed.

So you see, when you reflect, think, ponder at the Allah’s creation you are actually seeing the god only you are using a part of your brain instead of your eyes.

Look man stop misguiding you are just twisting and playing with words. You know there are whole lots of questions that are still un-answered and they fry my brains when I think about them
Such as?
You say Allah is the most merciful, the just, the most powerful, Look around you we can abuse Allah, say filthy things about him and his prophet and still no lightning strikes us! And you say he is most powerful ha! Look around you there is so much injustice in this world; people are killing one another, and you say he is just? These are the most important and best questions to ask

Have you heard the word hierarchy?

Hierarchy: A structure that has a predetermined ordering from high to low

Lets take example of supposedly the best system of governance the us democracy Currently at the top sits George Holy Missile Bush And down the order follows his cronies Rice and cornflake Friendly friend shooter the dick And the rest of them. Suppose someone named jack who works as a clerk at a very low level in the government. And one day jack says GHMB is a figfart and not fit to be the president of USA, he is killer of innocent men women and children. What do you think? Will GHMB, on one fine morning descend on the front door of jack with his missiles, ring the bell and says I am GHMB and I am goanna fry your ass because you challenged and abused me. No man he will not descend, because jack is low down the Hierarchy, GHMB will personally not get involved if he is enough offended he may act indirectly and have jack dismissed from the job. Now

Lets imagine suppose the same words “GHMB is a fig art and not fit to be the president of USA, he is killer of innocent men women and children.” Are uttered by misuse Rice and cornflake What do you think will happen? Man at the first thing in the morning she will find at her door is GHMB with his nuclear arsenal and all the US army recalled from Iraq, GHMB will intervene directly. Because she is at a higher level in the Hierarchy And has the potential to cause damage to GHMB. Similarly the stars, the sun, the earth, even every atom, and we human beings are at different level in hierarchy. For example, the sun cannot say I had enough now I must take a break and stop producing heat. The sun cannot do this because if it does you know what will happen Therefore Allah has not given the permission to the sun to rebel It has no free will; same with the earth it cannot stop spinning unless Allah tells it to. They have to follow the rules strictly that Allah laid down for them. For us Allah has given free will, intelligence, rational and logical thinking and freedom to rebel. BUT HE HAS KEPT US AT A LOW LEVEL IN THE HIERAECHY Because of this no matter what we utter, how much we abuse, rebel, we cannot damage Allah or his system, he does not need to intervene directly. Sometimes Allah does intervene in-directly or even directly (it is up to him) When Prophet Moses (pbuh) insisted that he wanted to see Allah, Allah said you won’t be able to take it, but still Moses (pbuh) insisted so Allah showed just a fleeting glance and Moses (pbuh) fainted.

What about the most merciful part? Uh! Tell me! Tell me about it

Plain and simple! In spite people calling him filthy names, abusing his prophets, rebelling against him. He does not strike them with lightning instead he is ready to forgive if you repent and return to the true path of Islam. Tell me how many of you show mercy on the forum when someone abuses you and opposes your ideas? Since how long people are abusing and mocking Allah? But he is the most merciful that’s why he has kept the lightning for other purpose and not for striking infidels.

You are getting on my nerve man, justice! Justice!
Suppose a man shoots another man some where in New York Will justice be done immediately? First he will be arrested and then tried in the court of law and if found guilty he will be punished and this may take years. Allah has given us intelligence and power of reasoning that is why we are progressing In the field of science and technology but Allah has also attached a rider to his creation That my friend is time, which ages everything that has been created and everything that has a beginning has end and every soul shall taste death. Sun will not burn forever and earth will not rotate forever. Everything created is moving towards a final destination. And that is the day of repayment, and Allah says anyone who has done an atoms weight of good will be shown and anyone who has done an atoms weight of bad will be shown, on the day of repayment. Whether you are a Muslim or non-Muslim. So justice will be done no doubt about it but at its appointed time. Do I need to say anything about being powerful?If man can make nuclear bombs you can imagine the power of Allah! The creator of universe

.Err... nice argument but I have to think new ways to counter you,

[ajazz]

as of now, No one can prove if life exists on Jupiter or not BUT no one can deny that Jupiter exist!
Look around you, the trees, the mountain, human beings, planets, the whole universe they exist no one can deny it

there are only two possibilities either they always existed or someone created them, if there is any third possibility please let me know.



Using logic and circumstantial evidence

It can be proven that god exists.

[Kittygyal]

Salamualikum.
welcome dude have fun inshallah
Ma'assalama

[ajazz]

let’s define god first, since I am a Muslim I will define god according to Islam.

Allah describe himself in the holy Quran ,

Verily, I am Allah! There is no other god besides Me. (Quran, 20:14)

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him. (Quran,, 112)

Allah, there is none worthy of worship but He. The Ever-Living, The Self-Subsisting. Neither slumber nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and on Earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows the past and the future and they can encompass nothing of His Knowledge except what He wills. His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in guarding them. And He is The Highest, The Mighty. (Quran, 2:255)

There is nothing comparable to Him. And He is The All-Hearing, The All-Seeing. (Quran, 42:11)

Human beings have 5 basic senses but they have great limitations
Our eyes can detect only light that too in a limited range
We can hear sound which is limited to 20 Hz – 20 kHz frequency range
Our senses are just powerful enough to help us survive in this world
Therefore we cannot picture Allah in our mind.
Allah is unique; we cannot compare him with anything in the world or universe
He is beyond any imagination of human beings
Allah has 99 names, they are his attributes, and through these attributes we can know
Allah,
Here are some of his names:

As-Salaam
The Source of Peace, The One who is free from every imperfection.

Al-Quddoos
The Holy, The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries.

Al-Mutakabbir
The Majestic, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures and from resembling them.

Al-Khaaliq
The Creator, The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.
Al-Musawwir
The Fashioner, The One who forms His creatures in different pictures.

Al-Ghaffaar
The Great Forgiver, The Forgiver, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.

As-Samee^
The All-Hearing, The Hearer, The One who Hears all things that are heard by His Eternal Hearing without an ear, instrument or organ.

Al-Baseer
The All-Seeing, The One who Sees all things that are seen by His Eternal Seeing without a pupil or any other instrument.

Al-Haleem
The Forebearing, The Clement, The One who delays the punishment for those who deserve it and then He might forgive them.

Al-Kabeer
The Most Great, The Great, The One who is greater than everything in status.

Al-Haqq
The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

Al-Mateen
The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

Al-Mumeet
The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.

Al-Qayyoom
The Self-Subsisting, The One who remains and does not end.


Al-'Awwal
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Al-'Akhir
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

Az-Zaahir
The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

Al-Ghaniyy
The Self-Sufficient, The One who does not need the creation.



Al-Badi^
The Incomparable, The One who created the creation and formed it without any preceding example.

Al-Baaqi
The Everlasting, The One that the state of non-existence is impossible for Him.


As-Saboor
The Patient, The One who does not quickly punish the sinners.


This is the definition of god in Islam, does any other religion provides such a definite, clear, concise, precise and stunning description of god?

I hope u got the definition of god (actually Allah is more appropriate
Because the name Allah has no plural and no gender, it is a name which belongs to only one entity, were as god can become goddess or godfather or godmother…)


But, how do we know or prove that such a god exists?
Well, how do we prove that a thing exists?
One method is directly or it is obvious like a car, building or a tree.
But how do we prove a thing that exists which is not obvious or cannot be perceived.(by our senses)

Let’s take example of an atom, can we see it, feel it?


(Very good question. The answer is yes. And No. The reason
For No is that it is actually impossible for anybody to "see" an individual
Atom, since all atoms are thousands of times smaller than the smallest light
waves we can see using our eyes. The reason for Yes is that, even though they
cannot be seen directly with our eyes there is so much evidence for atoms, and
we know so much about them, that it is impossible to say they do not exist.)

: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton...ics/PHY118.HTM



(Ancient Greeks first predicted the existence of the atom around 500 BC. They named the predicted particle 'atomos,' meaning "indivisible." In 1803, John Dalton (1766-1844) proposed a systematic set of postulates to describe the atom. Dalton's work paved the way for modern day acceptance of the atom….. http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/A...oactivity.html)
Neither the Greeks nor John Dalton saw the atom!
And today scientists, thorough experiment, circumstantial evidence and logical conclusion have established the existence of atoms without seeing or feeling it!


So accepting the existence of god is becoming easier, or is it?


But how do we prove that god exists?
We can experiment, analyze circumstantial evidence and come to logical conclusion
We know time exist or do we?


Definition of time:
A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.
http://www.answers.com/topic/time


Let’s take an example of the car in your garage
It must have went through events in time
Before it was in the garage it must have been in the showroom, and before that in the factory and before that in the factory in a disassembled state of various parts and this parts must have had their own events in time through which they went, the engine must have been in state of raw metal, this metal must have gone through it own events in time, these events cannot go on indefinitely, logically it must have had a beginning, a starting point, but how this beginning came into existence? Logically there must be an entity that is free from these events in time limitations and was responsible for this starting point, so who can be this entity? Well! Why don’t you go back to the definition of god in Islam, you will realize that Allah fits the bill perfectly!


Lets take the big bang theory (will assume it is true) this theory which is widely accepted by the scientists
The theory states that in the beginning the universe was in a hot gaseous state and then there was a explosion, a big bang which scattered the gaseous matter all around, this matter started spinning and cooled down and earth, stars and other heavenly bodies were formed and then by chance / accident life was formed on earth.
When they say in the beginning it means the hot gaseous matter existed as it is. It had no previous event in time; time itself started at this point.



But was there anything before the beginning, they provide no answer.

But ( alhamdulillah ) the Quran provides the answer!

He only commands it to be and it is. (Ayah: 67-68)

If we assume the big bang to be true (Allah knows the best)
Allah only had to command be, and there it is the hot gaseous matter and the starting point of time!


if you are really looking for answers

here is a little experiment I want you to do
Everyday just say this little prayer
“ if there is a god a true god a god who truly exist and is most powerful and creator of all the things that exist Please help and guide me to right path please guide me to the true religion”

But you have to be sincere and really wanting to discover true god.
And please don’t expect result overnight

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[ajazz]

Every human being has ingrained concept of god consciously or unconsciously

{A 2004 survey by the CIA in the World Factbook estimates about 12.5% of the world's population are non-religious, and about 2.4% are atheists.

A 2005 poll by AP/Ipsos surveyed ten countries. Of the developed nations, people in the United States had most certainty about the existence of God or a higher power (2% atheist, 4% agnostic)}
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

The population of the world is more than 6 billion out of which only about 0.144 billion are atheist, the rest of them believe in god their concept of god may differ.
But why my athiest brothers differ from rest of the pack?


Have you ever misplaced your keys and started looking for it in weirdest of weird places
And then “oh my god! (For atheist: oh my nothing! or may be oh my Newton!)
The keys were right there in front of you, you just did not notice.


They have hearts they do not understand with. They have eyes they do not see with. They have ears they do not hear with. Such people are like cattle. No, they are even further astray! They are the unaware. (Surat al-A'raf: 179)

My athiest brother you have lost your keys find them as soon as possible!



Some people when they see a beautiful picture they say wow! Who painted (created) it.
Then they see a beautiful car and they say wow! Who manufactured (created).
Then they see beautiful building and they say wow! Who is the architect?

And then one day this bloke is sitting in front of TV watching national geographic channel and they are showing beautiful, stunning, captivating, amazing, pictures of stars and galaxies of unimaginable magnitude,
And this bloke goes WOW! Nobody created it.


Actually atheists are 33% Muslims,
????????????????????????????????

To be Muslim you need to recite these words

1) there is no god

2) But only one god

3) And Mohammad (saw) is the final and last messenger of god.

[ajazz]

According to Aristotle (atheist) logically Allah can exist


On Longevity and Shortness of Life
By Aristotle

Opposites destroy
each other, and hence accidentally, by their destruction, whatsoever
is attributed to them is destroyed. But no opposite in a real substance
is accidentally destroyed, because real substance is not predicated
of any subject. Hence a thing which has no opposite, or which is situated
where it has no opposite, cannot be destroyed.


Read full article here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/longev_short.1b.txt



Hence if something exists which has absolutely no opposition, then
Such thing cannot be destroyed and logically a thing which cannot be destroyed
Must have always existed.





Here again the definition of Allah in Islam.


Al-'Awwal
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Al-'Akhir
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.



Quote from above……

“a thing which has no opposite, or which is situated
where it has no opposite, cannot be destroyed.”



Az-Zaahir (The Manifest)

The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.

alhumdillah allahuakbar!!!


And there is none like unto Him. (Quran,, 112)

There is nothing comparable to Him. And He is The All-Hearing, The All-Seeing. (Quran, 42:11)




Allah is unique there is nothing like him, leave alone like him there is nothing
You can compare him with,
He is absolute and has no opposition



Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), they will be among the lowest (most humiliated).
( سورة المجادلة , Al-Mujadila, Chapter #58, Verse #20)




therefore I think if Aristotle was presented this definition of god he would have had no
problem accepting it.


We know universe exist and it also has opposition which is time
And scientist tells us the one day universe will be destroyed
Hence anything that has beginning and can end was created

And only an entity that has attributes which Allah has, is capable of creating universe
Now that we know the definition of Allah
You must acknowledge he is the creator and sustainer of the universe.


Physicists describe grim end of the world

The good news is that the end is not near. The bad news is that when it does come, it's not going to be pretty.


stars will begin to die off as they burn up their nuclear fuel and the firmament as we know it ceases to shine.

"If you wait long enough," Adams says, "all of the stars in the universe will eventually run out of fuel and burn out."


http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9701/15/end.universe/




when the heavens cleave asunder; and when the stars disappear and when the seas commingled; and when the graves be over-turned; Then shall every soul know what it hath sent forth and left behind.” (82:1-5). In Suras Al-e-Imran, The Cattle,



All the true information that I have posted on this forum and else where is from Allah
All the good explanation that I may have given is because of help from Allah
And any misinformation I may have unintentionally spread or any wrong explanation that I may have given is from me. I ask Allah to forgive me.
Amen.

[Camomilla]

:sl:
Thanx for da share bro, Jazakallah Khair!
peace!:thumbs_up
:w:

['Abd al-Baari]

:sl:

Welcome to the forums bro, Mashallah some great posts, Jazakallah for sharing

[ranma1/2]

as of now, No one can prove if life exists on Jupiter or not BUT no one can deny that Jupiter exist!
Look around you, the trees, the mountain, human beings, planets, the whole universe they exist no one can deny it

there are only two possibilities either they always existed or someone created them, if there is any third possibility please let me know.



Using logic and circumstantial evidence

It can be proven that god exists.

ill get to the first post later.
There are many possiblities. I could name off the thousands of gods as being creators to just begin with.

However
#1 the entire universe has always exitsted.
possible but unlikely in this incarnation since the current theory is that there was a big bang.
#2 Alah created it.
#3-#10000000093... so and so god created it.
#100000000094 that the universe is cycilic and it has always existed in one form or another going from one big bang to a big crunch repeatedly
#100000000095 the universe did have a begining at one point that came about by natural and explainable means "although currently not known"
there are many possiblities and not the false dichotomy you presented.

[ranma1/2]

Assalamalikum!
This is my post from another froum

....
Dear brother mughal
was this a cut and paste i take it?? Mugal? mongal empire ?
from what I ...
......
......

Let’s leave religion aside for a movement and ask ourselves does god exist?
Fair question. which one? What is it? Properties etc.. and so what if one or many do exists?

One way we can say every creation has a creator right?
Wrong!
Correct, of course i would say nothing has ever been created from nothing.

Everything that is not man made has a creator evidence?
and he is one and only, Allah.
wait i thought you wanted to get it away from religion.
So man is also creator he/she has also created things like cars, planes, not to forget nuclear bombs and many other things right?
Man has transformed material into different forms, correct, man has never created something from nothing.
Wrong!

Man is not a creator he cannot create, he/she only has the power to convert (that also limited) one thing into another like taking things that already exist and making different types of things from it.
Correct as long as you are using the word create in the exnihlo sense, nothing has ever been created exnihlo.

Man cannot create a single atom. To create means to produce things out of nothing and it is only Allah that can do it.
evidence?

He just has to say be and it is. evidence?

(word manipulators, twisters and truth benders please note god has no gender,” he “Is just used here for a reference and don’t ask me why not she unless you belong to the federation of feminist apes.)
lol at least you agree that god doesnt have to have a gender.
Even if we say that every creation has a creator,
i dont,
than who created god?
he did right? or he has always been.. then in that case why cant the universe all ways have been in one form or another? or why cant it just create itself?

Please, from the colony of apes you must now cross over to the colony of humans,
huh? I assume that was one your slang or insults from the post you pasted this from?
Allah honors us by saying that humans are the best of his creation.
And how are we best? we are quite horribly made and inferrior to other animals in many aspects. best? hardly? I would suggest you wrestling a lion and see who wins.

Because we have intelligence and logic, so if every creation has a creator we run around in a circle, like some apes do, stop!
So what , we are better in some aspects that have aided in our survival than animals , they too are better in other aspects that have aided them.

Since creation like planets, humans and other things exist which cannot be denied the logical and rational Explanation is that there already exists some thing from which everything came and nobody created it
ok im not sure i understood that.

And that my fellow human beings and also some beings that are in process of crossing over to human race, is Allah the eternal god.
evidence?

.Oh! I hear some apes growling,
sighing perhaps..
..... they are shouting Evolution! Evolution!

What is evolution anyway?
I would recommend you reading alot about it to find out.
....Evolution
is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.
that is a very rough explanation. Now do you understand it?
So evolution has stages, so counting backwards From last stage then stages previous to the last one then again another stage previous to the last one… Come-on go on, go on….Man I’m tired this is it, this is the first stage. This tiny itsy bitsy cell organism or what ever it is this is where evolution started.
Ok so now your going to abiogenisis. Those are seperate subjects. Evo just deals with what happened after life was formed.

Well, who created this first stage, if it really happened this way?
No one, abiogenisis is a seperate subject that has many theories .. IN general life probably started once the first self replicating molecules were formed.

Dam!
Back to running in circle like apes.
huh?
Elementary my dear ape-son, elementary! Make a wild guess with your pea size intelligence its Allah the eternal god!
evidence? You do know that Holmes did you evidence to support his conclusions.
...
...

We the scientist, the most intelligent of the species. We can prove anything;
actually proof is only for math and alchol.
Science covers what is likely and uses theories to do that.

......
Son there is no god and we have no formula for god.
god is not something for science.
God in science has not purpose. It does not explain things it only gives an excuse.
We have proof for everything um actually no we dont. We have evidence for many things but as i said before proof is only for math and beer...

and what we cannot explain we have theories.
Actually the majority of science is theory, evo, gravity... etc....


....a big bang
.......
..., what was there before the beginning?
many theories to that.

...

seriously i expected moreout of this long diatribe instead of many a strawman argument and insults...


....Let’s see, about three thousand on 9/11

.......

Everything in this world has a purpose
... so why do men have nipples?
...Hierarchy: A structure that has a predetermined ordering from high to low

..,

ok that was big waste of time. Why did i bother.
You have a point?

If all youa re going to do is paste and copy with no relevance what so ever please dont.

[Woodrow]

ill get to the first post later.
There are many possiblities. I could name off the thousands of gods as being creators to just begin with.

However
#1 the entire universe has always exitsted.
possible but unlikely in this incarnation since the current theory is that there was a big bang.
#2 Alah created it.
#3-#10000000093... so and so god created it.
#100000000094 that the universe is cycilic and it has always existed in one form or another going from one big bang to a big crunch repeatedly
#100000000095 the universe did have a begining at one point that came about by natural and explainable means "although currently not known"
there are many possiblities and not the false dichotomy you presented.

Let us just for a moment assume that all of the evolutionary theories are correct.

This means that given sufficient time matter will exist. In time that matter will form into living organisms and given the right combination intelligence will develope.

Considering that a somewhat remarkable level of intelligence(debatable) did form at least here on Earth. Knowledge is exchanged the very make-up of the universe is being understood(?).


Using that reasoning does it not make sense that besides matter, the basic forces of the universe would also take on the aspects of life and intelligence at least in one entity. Now, if those forces have alwys existed, would it not be logical that the entity would be eternal. Using the same logic that matter must exist, is no different then the conclusion that the entity must exist.

Since that entity is eternal and always was, would not the level of intelligence also be eternal and all knowing?

Would that not be simply 2 of the attributes of He who we call Allah(swt)?

The same logic that dictates matter and life must occur is also the same logic that dictates Allah(swt) must exist.

[Skavau]

I don’t have as much knowledge as you have, but, Allah thankfully has given me more intelligence and power of reasoning than some of the cousins of apes. (Darwin lovers)

You begin with a snidey remark. Not necessary.

Man is not a creator he cannot create, he/she only has the power to convert (that also limited) one thing into another like taking things that already exist and making different types of things from it. Man cannot create a single atom. To create means to produce things out of nothing and it is only Allah that can do it.

Unverifiable.

Please, from the colony of apes you must now cross over to the colony of humans, Allah honors us by saying that humans are the best of his creation. Because we have intelligence and logic, so if every creation has a creator we run around in a circle, like some apes do, stop!

So your argument for the exemptness of a creator needing a creator is that it runs around in circles? Yes, it does - but it does not eliminate the point. By installing a great designer in the existence of everything, you too must also explain the designer.

If you cannot, it is just an unverifiable assumption driven by faith.

Since creation like planets, humans and other things exist which cannot be denied the logical and rational Explanation is that there already exists some thing from which everything came and nobody created it

You are using logic, because you are using it to determine your outlook. This assumption could be true - we do not know, but regardless it is still an assumption which is unverifiable and meaningless.

.Oh! I hear some apes growling, man they are after my blood, and they want to tear me apart Drink my blood, and they are shouting Evolution! Evolution! What is evolution anyway? Well! It is certainly not a strict Christian school where small little monkeys are evolved into big intelligent rational thinking apes. Well! Then what it is Mikey?
Evolution
is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations. So evolution has stages, so counting backwards From last stage then stages previous to the last one then again another stage previous to the last one… Come-on go on, go on….Man I’m tired this is it, this is the first stage. This tiny itsy bitsy cell organism or what ever it is this is where evolution started.

Well, who created this first stage, if it really happened this way? Dam!
Back to running in circle like apes.

Evolution does not rule out the existence of a God. Your article would be a lot better if you ceased making immature remarks.

Elementary my dear ape-son, elementary! Make a wild guess with your pea size intelligence its Allah the eternal god!
That’s right, and let me tell you what you didn’t win a twenty volume encyclopedia on monkey brain Also you have not won a years supply of free bananas that’s not all you have also not won a free trip to the planet of apes!

Grow up.

We the scientist, the most intelligent of the species. We can prove anything; we have formulas, theories and assumptions And if we prove some things after sometime we go back to our thinking board And prove new things that proves that our earlier proof was not really sound proof You see we keep on discovering new evidence things changes so we also must not be Consistent We can prove that a^ 2 + b^2 = c ^2
You mean monkey brains ^ 2 + intelligence ^ 2 = moron ^2

Science is constantly searching for answers because we do not know everything. Nice to know you really understand what it is all about. ^o)

What about god?
Son there is no god and we have no formula for god. We have proof for everything and what we cannot explain we have theories.

That is correct. Science cannot test the univerifiable. So why should science jump to conclusions in what is not known?

So sir how our earth came into being? Well, in the beginning there was a mass of gaseous state And then there was a big bang
You mean like a monkey fart when it has a sever case of indigestion Because it cannot digest the food of rational and logical thinking!
You just listen, boy!Ok.After the fart, err… we mean explosion, This matter was scattered and formed planets, sun and stars The earth began spinning and it cooled down and water was formed and by chance/accident That bloody tiny itsy bitsy cell organism or whatever came into existence And blah, blah, blah….

Your immature drivel is not worth responding to here. Grow up.

Ok, you said in the beginning, what was there before the beginning?
Dam!
You said by chance/accident life began. So? Well I have a collection of delicate and beautiful glasses, they are about a million trillion in numbers

No. That is not is what said.

Now, I am going to drop them one by one on the ground what will happen to them? Err... They will break into tiny pieces. You just wait! I am ready to drop all my collection but tell me when this glass instead of breaking into tiny pieces, when will they by chance/accident will be transformed into small pieces of beautiful glass with intricate design on them.

Go on believing that the rules of physics are completely random and see what happens.

.Move away you as***les let me enter I am the big daddy of all the monkey brains from the planet of apes, I am atheist the numb brain, let me first start with abusing, insulting, making fun, twisting facts

I love how you accuse the person playing the role of being an atheist of abusing, insulting, making fun, twisting facts when you're doing all of that yourself.

I will let you on a little secret; it’s our brother in arms the Israelis and CIA this is a beautiful plan to divide the country into smaller parts so we can rule it easily. Don’t you dare camper yourself with us? We have our George holy missile Bush he alone killed thousands and thousands of you in Iraq and Afghanistan, that to sitting in his comfortable office and while playing golf You see this is how things are done you can learn from us, but you are too dimwit.

Rofl. Just rofl.

Have you wondered how small the atom is there are millions of them on a pin head Even atoms are made of smaller parts know as electrons and neutrons and who knows there may be further division of them
. Now look at the sun. The Sun's diameter is 864,938 miles (1,391,980 km).It would take 109 earths to stretch across the sun, and it would take over one million earths to "fill up" the sun if it were hollow. The great star Betelgeuse is about 700 times bigger than our Sun (and roughly 50 times as massive). Betelgeuse is also about 14,000 times brighter than the Sun. Light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles a second or 700 million miles an hour The distance light can travel in a year is called a "light year." The light year is one of the basic measures of distance for astronomy. Light coming from the sun takes eight and one half minutes to hit Earth. (This means that if the sun were suddenly to go dark, it would take over eight minute for us to notice)Light from the nearest stars, other than the sun, takes four and a half years to get here. From the farthest stars in distant galaxies it can take billions of years for the light to arrive.

Argument from design.

The rest of your argument has nothing to do with it and contains even more childish antics. I would advice you to present your arguments in a more mature way in future.

[ajazz]

ill get to the first post later.
There are many possiblities. I could name off the thousands of gods as being creators to just begin with.

Forget thousands just give one name and for Anthony flew's sake don't just give any xyzz name, you must describe what power and attribute that god has who is capable of creating the universe.

#1 the entire universe has always exitsted.
possible

please let me know if you have discovered any new laws of physics !!!!!
because if universe always existed then it has to be out side time
but we know that universe is aging

"researchers says the universe is between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...se_030103.html

and anything that ages, had a beginning, if you don't agree than prove it otherwise.

now if you agree the possibility of big bang then the universe had a beginning

so where this starting point came about?

either it was created by some one or it came out of nothing.

but according physics

In physics, the word nothing is not used in any technical sense. A region of space is called a vacuum if it does not contain any matter. But it can contain physical fields. In fact, it is practically impossible to construct a region of space which contains no matter or fields, since gravity cannot be blocked and all objects at a non-zero temperature radiate electromagnetically. However, supposing such a region existed, it would still not be "nothing", since it has properties and a measurable existence as part of the quantum-mechanical vacuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing



now the other possibility left is, universe was created by someone

but this someone has to be special
this someone has to have special powers and attributes
this someone has to be outside the time



i request you to go back to the post where i describe Allah in Islam

read it very carefully may be twice or thrice
reflect on it

now if you have a rational and logical mind

you may consider the possibility that yes only an entity such as Allah
can create the universe
and if Allah wills you might end up being a muslim

#100000000094 that the universe is cycilic and it has always existed in one form or another going from one big bang to a big crunch repeatedly

Appeal To Authority

#100000000095 the universe did have a begining at one point that came about by natural and explainable means "although currently not known

Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things that Allah has created, and that it may be that the end of their lives is near. In what message after this will they then believe?
( Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #185)

Do you not see that Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth? If He will, He can remove you and bring (in your place) a new creation!
( Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #19)

there are many possiblities and not the false dichotomy you presented.

There are only two possibility either it was created or it always existed

we Muslims believe universe was created by Allah and it was created out of nothing by Allah !!!.

Do they not think deeply (in their ownselves) about themselves (how Allah created them from nothing, and similarly He will resurrect them)? Allah has created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, except with truth and for an appointed term. And indeed many of mankind deny the Meeting with their Lord.
( Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #8)


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