Tolerance, acceptance of Islam a valuable lesson

[Uthman]

When I started college, I would have told you that head coverings worn by women from Middle Eastern countries were oppressive. I would have cited instances of women being killed by their families to preserve their honor. I would have told you I was an expert on the matter. I saw it on an episode of "Law and Order: SVU."

I saw oppression as a matter of not being able to live the way I do. It seemed apparent that any woman who didn't wear jeans and T-shirts or who sported the latest hairstyle in public must be the victim of brutality. I assumed women in the Middle East had no freedoms, men treated them like property and of course, they were all terrorists because their religion told them to be.

But I don't think that way anymore.

In fall 2006, Shirien Elmasraya began writing columns for The Daily Reveille, and during her time as a columnist, I have learned more from her words and actions than from some classes I have taken in three years as a student.

When I first met her, she seemed quiet and reserved. She sat silently poised in our often noisy and boisterous newsroom. But after reading her columns, I tried to draw her into conversation about her beliefs and experiences as a woman who chooses to wear a hijab, or head covering, on a campus.

I have come to realize that most Islamic women who chose to wear a hijab aren't being oppressed; they have made a choice to participate in a deeply rooted religious and cultural practice.

Feminists in this country fought for women's right to decide - the right to chose what job they wanted, who they wanted to represent them in government or whether they want to be married. Just as women gained the right to vote in elections, they gained the right for Islamic women to wear a head scarf. No one forces them to wear a head scarf or cover their faces; it's their choice. And that choice should be respected as much as a women's right to choose if she wants to pursue a career or be a homemaker instead.

But instead of seeing this as an example of the rights and privileges women have gained in this country, many claim it's a sign of oppression and hatred.

The e-mails Elmasraya receives on a weekly basis for vocalizing her views such as why she wears a head covering are unbelievable. The attacks she faces daily on The Daily Reveille Web site are overwhelming. Many of them don't meet publication standards to be printed.

In the fall, one reader became so overt in her threats of physical harm the police had to be contacted, and the reader was a woman.

I read these comments every week, and I am appalled at the statements some make in the name of "feminism" or "Christianity."

As both a feminist and a Catholic, I find the attacks to be the exact opposite of what both feminism and Christianity stand for.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should hate those of other religions. In fact, it says to love your enemy. And in attacking Elmasraya for her religion on the basis that Christianity is right and Islam is wrong, many Christians ignore the idea of love and tolerance that both Jesus and Mohammad taught.

When Elmasraya wrote about how Islam is not a religion of hate that encourages acts of violence, many responded angrily and cited the 9/11 terrorist attacks. An estimated 1.4 billion people practice Islam in the world. Those who have committed horrific acts of terrorism are only a small fraction of the Islamic population.

Denouncing all Muslims based on the acts of a few would be like judging all 300 million Americans based on how Paris Hilton and Kevin Federline act or assuming all Americans are like President George W. Bush.

A constant rant directed at Elmasraya and her supporters on our Web site is that if Muslims have complaints about this country to "go back to where they came from."

Complaining about this country is as American as apple pie. This country was founded upon the principles of dissent, and the First Amendment protects the right to do so. It ensures the right to vocalize unpopular opinions and beliefs.

Telling people to move to Middle Eastern countries because they expect to receive the same rights as other citizens cuts away at this country's founding principles of democracy. The founding fathers intended for rule by the majority with protection of the minority. Telling someone to leave who wants to live in America without being the victim of persecution and discrimination is the exact opposite of the ideas this country was founded upon.

In the past two semesters, I have come to realize a lot from Elmasraya. I now realize that head scarves aren't oppression; they are a symbol of independence. I realize that the Christian way to act toward someone who is of a different religion is with love, and the most American way to act is with tolerance and understanding of someone who is different from me.

http://media.www.lsureveille.com/med...60-page2.shtml

[Cognescenti]

Shouldn't this article be in French? I am not aware of any wide scale intolerance of the use of headscarves in the US.

I don't see a headscarf as oppressive. A burka maybe. Limted access to higher education...definitely. Unequal rights in divorce or child custody...yes. Sanctioned violence against wives....ummm..yes.

(note: I realize these aren't universally practiced among Muslims)

[Shirien]

Subhanallah! I came across this when searching my name. Alhamdulillah, Allah subhana wa ta'ala has blessed me greatly with that job. I love writing about Islam.

http://www.lsureveille.com/home/inde...aper&frombar=1

jazakum Allahu khairun for posting it, All praise is due to Allah subhana wa ta'ala alone.

Wassalam,
Shirien

[Uthman]

:sl:

Are you Shirien Elmasraya?

:w:

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[- Qatada -]

Shouldn't this article be in French? I am not aware of any wide scale intolerance of the use of headscarves in the US.

I don't see a headscarf as oppressive.

Kool.

A burka maybe.

Sisters who wear it seem to think otherwise.

Limted access to higher education...definitely.

The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said:

“Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.” (Related by Ibn ‘Adiyy, Al-Bayhaqi and Al-Tabarani).

Unequal rights in divorce or child custody...yes.

If a woman wants to ask for a divorce - she can ask for one.


Regarding child custody:

It was reported from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar that a woman said, “O Messenger of Allaah, my womb was a container for this son of mine and my lap was a haven for him, and he drank from my breast, but his father is claiming that he should take him from me.” The Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You have more right to him (to custody of him) so long as you do not remarry.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 2/182; Abu Dawood, 2276; al-Haakim, 2/225. Classed as Saheeh by al-Haakim).

Sanctioned violence against wives....ummm..yes.

The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said:

"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

[Authentically reported in Bukhari & Muslim]





Regards.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Subhanallah! I came across this when searching my name. Alhamdulillah, Allah subhana wa ta'ala has blessed me greatly with that job. I love writing about Islam.

http://www.lsureveille.com/home/inde...aper&frombar=1

jazakum Allahu khairun for posting it, All praise is due to Allah subhana wa ta'ala alone.

Wassalam,
Shirien

:sl:
Is that youuuuuuuuuu!
NEAT!

:w: :D

[Shirien]

lol yeah, I was just searching my name in google, sometimes i like to see which newspapers or online websites pick up my articles. CAIR puts them in their newsletter sometimes..

Aljazeerah picks them up from cair sometimes. lol

That girl is really nice the one i work with, i didnt know she was going to write that about me, I woke up one morning checked the campus newspaper, and saw it...lol it was nice mashaAllah. may Allah subhana wa ta'ala keep my intentions purely for His sake alone, ameen.

Jazakum Allahu khairun

[Shirien]

p.s. Elmasraya is not my real last name, it's just a name I use to avoid stalkers :)

which i get a lotttttttttt of hate mail, but alhamdulillah its all good.

[Uthman]

:sl:

But...but...you're like....famous!

Pleased to meet you!

:w:

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


May Allaah keep your intentions for His sake Alone, and may you be rewarded for that in this life and the next, ameen.


Sister, i urge you to read this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-stranger.html


Know that you will face alot of opposition if you follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, and that was the way of the prophets also since it is a trial from Allaah to raise that person in status in His Eyes, and in paradise ameen. So don't be put down by what the haters say, you are only conveying the truth inshaa Allaah. So glad tidings to the strangers as the Messenger of Allaah said.

[Shirien]

:sl:

But...but...you're like....famous!

Pleased to meet you!

:w:

haha, nahh.. i'm just a Columnist for LSU (louisiana state university) yeah my stuff gets picked up, but im a nobody :).

where did you come across this column by the way?

[Uthman]

:sl:

You're modest, I'll give you that. :D

Got the article from here: http://media.www.lsureveille.com/med...60-page2.shtml

I did link to the source at the bottom of the original post. :)

Hey, do stick around. This is a great place to be, you know.

And maybe it'll have more appeal to newcomers because we will have a famous person here.

:D

[Shirien]

:salamext:


May Allaah keep your intentions for His sake Alone, and may you be rewarded for that in this life and the next, ameen.


Sister, i urge you to read this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-stranger.html


Know that you will face alot of opposition if you follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, and that was the way of the prophets also since it is a trial from Allaah to raise that person in status in His Eyes, and in paradise ameen. So don't be put down by what the haters say, you are only conveying the truth inshaa Allaah. So glad tidings to the strangers as the Messenger of Allaah said.

ameen, thumma ameen. Yeah I've been through a lot the past year. At first it was tough dealing with all the hate mail. I had someone threaten my life, i her stalk me and send me so much hate mail, so I called the Police on her but didnt press charges..

It was difficult at first and distressing to see all the opposition, and it even scared me further that this was a blessing of Allah subahana wa ta'ala that I am able to write so I didnt want to abuse this blessing and ever saying anything incorrect in the deen or sugarcoat anything.

Alhamdulillah, through time it completely doesnt bother me that i get hate mail, because wallahi i've seen the fruits of my actions. I've had people email me appologizing to me and all the muslim in the world for their previous prejudices, I've had someone accept Islam, etc. even if it is just one person, wallahi it's worth it. our job is to convey the message , the true full message without it being watered down, The Hearts are with Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

anyway alhamdulillah again, wallahi ALLLL praise is due to Allah, I humble myself to him..

I just really recommend anyone in a university to apply to be on the opinion staff of their college paper. they are looking for diversity, and it's a chance in a lifetime to give such widescale dawah.

LSU alone has 40,000 students. 15,000 or so read the paper every day. wallahu alem. that's not including online stuff, and people who read it not in the university...

it's the golden opportunity for dawah. we just have to keep our intentions pure, and ask Allah to allow our words to penetrate their hearts.

wallahu ta'ala alem.

anyway im sorry for my rant... that's what you get for a mass comm. major :)

wassalamu alaikum

[Cognescenti]

The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said:

“Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.” (Related by Ibn ‘Adiyy, Al-Bayhaqi and Al-Tabarani).

Haven't you just undercut the educational positions of the Taliban (and the w*****s for that matter)?

You are going to make someone around here vewy, vewy angwy.

[Shirien]

:sl:

You're modest, I'll give you that. :D

Got the article from here: http://media.www.lsureveille.com/med...60-page2.shtml

I did link to the source at the bottom of the original post. :)

Hey, do stick around. This is a great place to be, you know.

And maybe it'll have more appeal to newcomers because we will have a famous person here.

:D

lol jazak Allah khair akhi, but again im really not famous.. it's just a college newspaper :). (although it was kinda funny earlier this week when a girl dropped her papers that were in her hand when she saw me.. and she was smiling.. (i dont put my picture next to my column for obvious reasons) anyway i was like what's wrong with this girl.. is she looking at me?, so i kept walking.. and she followed me asking me If someone had done a news story on me (someone in another class did a video news story ) anyway so after confirming we stood and talked about the paper and islam and such.) again, all blessings from Allah that He has allowed me to give dawah, may I only say that which is pleasing to him!!! ameen.. ya Allah, keep my intentions pure, ameen.

anyway, i think i should have rephrased that.. where did you come across our school newspaper website?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Maasha Allaah thats great, i think theres a hadith that if one person becomes muslim (submits to God/Allaah) through you, its better than all this world and whatever is in it. So may Allaah bless you for that, ameen.


Also be grateful that your articles really have a purpose whereas others who write articles either do it for a small personal benefit, to put their point across etc. and after a while they die out, whereas for a muslim - their reward lies with Allaah and Allaah never forgets the good that His servants do for His sake, so continue with that, and may Allaah continue making you successful in this life and the next.

It's also good to know that you're more confident and i'm sure you've gained more trust in Allaah now due to this. So remember to keep that constant relationship with Allaah throughout your good and bad since the hard times, and also the easy times are a trial from Him, and the real reward lies in the life to come.


We will keep you in our prayers sister, and also the whole muslim ummah. I'm happy we have a muslim voice which has a great impact, and may Allaah bring more good through it. ameen.

[- Qatada -]

Haven't you just undercut the educational positions of the Taliban (and the w*****s for that matter)?

You are going to make someone around here vewy, vewy angwy.

Who has more authority in the religion? God's Messenger or any other group of people? We get our religion off God's Messenger, and if others disagree with that - then we don't follow them.


Regards.

[Uthman]

:sl:

anyway, i think i should have rephrased that.. where did you come across our school newspaper website?

Well, I ermm...didn't.

See, I have this little RSS feed into my firefox bookmarks toolbar from Google News with the search term 'Islam'. So about a week ago, this article popped up from the link that I posted.

:w:

[Cognescenti]

Who has more authority in the religion? God's Messenger or any other group of people? We get our religion off God's Messenger, and if others disagree with that - then we don't follow them.


Regards.

You should run for something...seriously :)


Of course you would have to get your old, autocratic ways as board cop out of your system :)

[Cognescenti]

Shirien;

That must be very satisfying to write a column like that. From where (or whom) does the hate mail come?

If this is an example of your writing it seems quite sensible and is hardly hate-worthy.

[Muezzin]

You should run for something...seriously :)


Of course you would have to get your old, autocratic ways as board cop out of your system :)

You should get back on topic... seriously :)

Of course you would have to get your old, sarcastic ways as an evil clown out of your system :)

(note this smiley: :p)

:D

[Shirien]

Shirien;

That must be very satisfying to write a column like that. From where (or whom) does the hate mail come?

If this is an example of your writing it seems quite sensible and is hardly hate-worthy.

yeah it is alhamdulilllah, umm most just from college students on campus. In Louisiana there is a huge "republican bush supporter" crowd... so it's only natural....

It doesnt bother me at all anymore, i've written for more than a year now.. so now it's kind of just expected everytime i write.....

my next column for tomorrow.. i can smell the hate-mail now...

i'll post it tomorrow inshaAllah..

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It's seriously great to have u here with us sis, MashaAllah :) InshaAllah I'll get to reading more of ur stuff :D

[Cognescenti]

yeah it is alhamdulilllah, umm most just from college students on campus. In Louisiana there is a huge "republican bush supporter" crowd... so it's only natural....

It doesnt bother me at all anymore, i've written for more than a year now.. so now it's kind of just expected everytime i write.....

my next column for tomorrow.. i can smell the hate-mail now...

i'll post it tomorrow inshaAllah..

Ah...headscarves and personal religious freedoms are one thing...bashing foreign or domestic policies of the government when most of the people in the area voted for that government is quite a different matter. :omg:

Still, it is quite a unique situation for the same commentator to anger conservatives and radical feminists.

[guyabano]

The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said:

“Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim.” (Related by Ibn ‘Adiyy, Al-Bayhaqi and Al-Tabarani).

Ermmm, pardon me my ignorance, but how comes, under Taliban regime, Women in Afghanistan were NOT allowed to go to school ?
So the Taliban are unislamic??

I'm confused

[Malaikah]

Ermmm, pardon me my ignorance, but how comes, under Taliban regime, Women in Afghanistan were NOT allowed to go to school ?
So the Taliban are unislamic??

You know, back when I was a kid, my primary school got closed down. Does that mean my government is automatically anti-education? :?

Er, moral of story- the issue isn't whether or not women weren't allowed education, the issue is why. Political and cultural conditions of the time need to be taken into consideration (I would think war, lack of money, corrupt education curriculum and high rape/abduction rates would be worth considering? Not to mention validity of facts. Many news sources I have come across refer to this so called total ban of female education as lie).

[Muezzin]

This thread is not about the Taliban. If you wish to talk about them, either use the search function or make a new thread.

[Shirien]

Consider media terms in tragedy
YOU THINK YOU KNOW
by Shirien Elmasraya
Issue date: 4/24/07 Section: Opinion
Originally published: 4/23/07 at 11:41 PM MST Last update: 4/23/07 at 11:40

I opened the Yahoo! News page last Monday to find out that 32 people were murdered. At that point they hadn't released the identity of the gunman. All they said was officials were looking into whether this was a "terrorist attack."

Later the world learned the gunman was 23-year-old Seung Hui Cho, a South Korean native. Not only was I in total shock and felt horribly for those affected by this incident, but I was completely disgusted that officials did not label the gunman a "terrorist." How many people have to die for this to be called terrorist activity? From what part of the world does one have to be in order to be labeled a terrorist? To what religion must one ascribe in order to perform terrorism?

If this is not the perfect example of how the media uses propaganda, I don't know what is. Why do you think South Koreans were afraid of retaliation against them after the incident? It's because they see what popular opinion did to Muslims and Arabs after 9/11, not to mention, if we go back in history a little more, to the Japanese after World War II. Will the media not play the same game with the South Koreans as they did with Muslims, or is there a double standard here?

Better yet, why was he not called a Christian terrorist? He claimed in a letter written before the attack that he was trying to die "like Jesus Christ," and he committed suicide.

One can easily realize the double standards displayed so obviously by this incident.

As I have said over and over throughout the past year, you cannot classify a group according to the actions of few. The media this time were indeed correct to not classify someone as a "Christian terrorist" and to make an effort to dispel any ill feelings that some may have had toward native South Koreans. Ask yourself if there is a discrepancy here with Cho and the way people treat those of other religions.

The next time one hears the phrase "Islamic Terrorist," he should as, "Is the media classifying him as terrorist merely because he is Muslim?" If the answer is yes, and indeed it is yes, then Cho can only rightfully be called a "Christian terrorist."

Although the incident was indeed tragic, people need to understand that if 32 people died in one day in Iraq, that would be considered a pretty good day. People across America held ceremonies and vigils. Papers were filled with their faces and detailed their stories. But of the more than 600,000 people who have died in Iraq, most can't even name one of the innocent civilians who have died - not one. It seems American blood is more valuable than the blood of Iraqi civilians.

Early last week, as details of the Virginia Tech incident unfolded, a small headline came across the TV screen reading, "198 killed in Baghdad today." Imagine more than six Virginia Tech incidents in one day alone.

I am not trying to trivialize the incident that happened this past Monday, but people often fail to see the bigger picture. Just as we all felt distressed by the tragic shooting at Va. Tech, this happens on a much wider scale in Iraq and other parts of the world every day.

Considering Iraq is only a small portion of the size of America, one can only try to imagine the chaos that happens there daily. It's time we wake up and smell reality.


-----
Contact Shirien Elmasraya at
selmasraya@lsureveille.com

www.lsureveille.com

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

MashaAllah, nice article sis :D So truee. I was thinkin the same.

[Uthman]

:sl:

JazakAllahu Khayran for that sister Shirien. :) It's true of course and I enjoyed reading it.

:w:

[Cognescenti]

Consider media terms in tragedy
YOU THINK YOU KNOW
by Shirien Elmasraya
Issue date: 4/24/07 Section: Opinion
Originally published: 4/23/07 at 11:41 PM MST Last update: 4/23/07 at 11:40

I opened the Yahoo! News page last Monday to find out that 32 people were murdered. At that point they hadn't released the identity of the gunman. All they said was officials were looking into whether this was a "terrorist attack."

Later the world learned the gunman was 23-year-old Seung Hui Cho, a South Korean native. Not only was I in total shock and felt horribly for those affected by this incident, but I was completely disgusted that officials did not label the gunman a "terrorist." How many people have to die for this to be called terrorist activity? From what part of the world does one have to be in order to be labeled a terrorist? To what religion must one ascribe in order to perform terrorism?

If this is not the perfect example of how the media uses propaganda, I don't know what is. Why do you think South Koreans were afraid of retaliation against them after the incident? It's because they see what popular opinion did to Muslims and Arabs after 9/11, not to mention, if we go back in history a little more, to the Japanese after World War II. Will the media not play the same game with the South Koreans as they did with Muslims, or is there a double standard here?

Better yet, why was he not called a Christian terrorist? He claimed in a letter written before the attack that he was trying to die "like Jesus Christ," and he committed suicide.

One can easily realize the double standards displayed so obviously by this incident.

As I have said over and over throughout the past year, you cannot classify a group according to the actions of few. The media this time were indeed correct to not classify someone as a "Christian terrorist" and to make an effort to dispel any ill feelings that some may have had toward native South Koreans. Ask yourself if there is a discrepancy here with Cho and the way people treat those of other religions.

The next time one hears the phrase "Islamic Terrorist," he should as, "Is the media classifying him as terrorist merely because he is Muslim?" If the answer is yes, and indeed it is yes, then Cho can only rightfully be called a "Christian terrorist."

Although the incident was indeed tragic, people need to understand that if 32 people died in one day in Iraq, that would be considered a pretty good day. People across America held ceremonies and vigils. Papers were filled with their faces and detailed their stories. But of the more than 600,000 people who have died in Iraq, most can't even name one of the innocent civilians who have died - not one. It seems American blood is more valuable than the blood of Iraqi civilians.

Early last week, as details of the Virginia Tech incident unfolded, a small headline came across the TV screen reading, "198 killed in Baghdad today." Imagine more than six Virginia Tech incidents in one day alone.

I am not trying to trivialize the incident that happened this past Monday, but people often fail to see the bigger picture. Just as we all felt distressed by the tragic shooting at Va. Tech, this happens on a much wider scale in Iraq and other parts of the world every day.

Considering Iraq is only a small portion of the size of America, one can only try to imagine the chaos that happens there daily. It's time we wake up and smell reality.


-----
Contact Shirien Elmasraya at
selmasraya@lsureveille.com

www.lsureveille.com

Shirien;

Now I can see where the hate mail comes from :)

You will get it here because you have chosen to politicize a crime by a lone, mentally ill individual whose actions had no political inspiration. He wasn't funded by like-minded individuals. He wasn't smuggled in to his attack site by co-conspirators. Nobody helped load his weapons. Nobody picked his target for him, and there certainly wasn't anyone there to film his actions so it could later be spiced up with jingoistic music and appeals to the Almighty so it could be broadcast on Al-Jazeera to millions of enthusiastic spporters.

Is there suffering in Iaq? Of course there is. Is the scale bigger than Virginia Tech? Of course it is. Does the American public want to get out of Iraq? Certainly the majority does. Will that end the suffering there? Don't bet on it. It will almost certainly accelerate the process. Even the headline you mention about Iraq says nothing about Islam or terrorism. It is straight, objective, non-inflammatory reporting. Isn't that what you are calling for?

BTW..nobody with a modicum of objectivity is going to call Cho a "Christian terrorist". He most certainly wasn't a terrorist by any reasonable definition and I'm not sure it has even been established he considered himself a Christian. He limted reference to Jesus Christ seemed more to be about his manner of death than any sense of righting a wrong in his name.

Had he survived, the Captain of the Titanic would have likely. for the rest of his life, called any large, menacing moutain of ice ecnountered at sea an "iceberg"...and he would have been right.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

He had a weapon and he killed innocent people. Thats a perfect reason to call him a terrorist. If you think it's not then all I can say is double standards. He also did it in the name of religion. When a so called Muslim does it it's ok to attach an innocent religion to it. Its also assumed the person is Muslim. He said he was dong it in the name of Jesus. I dont think a non Christian would refer to Jesus. Your ignorance is so apparent, its sickening.

[MTAFFI]

He had a weapon and he killed innocent people. Thats a perfect reason to call him a terrorist. If you think it's not then all I can say is double standards. He also did it in the name of religion. When a so called Muslim does it it's ok to attach an innocent religion to it. Its also assumed the person is Muslim. He said he was dong it in the name of Jesus. I dont think a non Christian would refer to Jesus. Your ignorance is so apparent, its sickening.

ter·ror·ism
–noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

What was his political purpose?

[Uthman]

:sl:

Your ignorance is so apparent, its sickening.

Jazzy, I understand you are angry but this comment is unnecessary. This is not the way Muhammad (pbuh) would speak to the non-muslims. He always spoke with dignity and respect.

Furthermore, he is reported to have said: Speak a good word, or remain silent

I apologise for going on at you but this is a really important issue within the Ummah that needs to be addressed.

:w:

[Uthman]

Hi MTAFFI,

ter·ror·ism
–noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.

What was his political purpose?

What does esp. mean?

:w:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

there is more than one definition. Just because thats how its being used now, doesnt mean that exactly the definition. The definition is always changing when they want to fit it for a purpose.


Ex:

A 1988 study by the US Army counted 109 definitions of terrorism that covered a total of 22 different definitional elements. Terrorism expert Walter Laqueur in 1999 also has counted over 100 definitions and concludes that the "only general characteristic generally agreed upon is that terrorism involves violence and the threat of violence".

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:



Jazzy, I understand you are angry but this comment is unnecessary. This is not the way Muhammad (pbuh) would speak to the non-muslims. He always spoke with dignity and respect.

Furthermore, he is reported to have said: Speak a good word, or remain silent

I apologise for going on at you but this is a really important issue within the Ummah that needs to be addressed.

:w:

I'm very well aware of it bro, thank you..
Its not an insult, its a legal word. If it was a curse or a type of insult, I would get in trouble for using the word. It's our mentality where we seem to think its an insult. Ignorance means being uninformed about something or choosing to ignore whats right in your face.

[Uthman]

:sl: Jazzy,

Then would you imagine Muhammad (pbuh) saying such a thing to Cognescenti if he were in your place?

If you can, then that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

:w:

[MTAFFI]

Hi MTAFFI,



What does esp. mean?

:w:

especially

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I would never compare myself to our Beloved Prophet. Cuz I know I'll never be anywhere near him. SubhanAllah. And I feel more annoyed than what I'm showing. So think bout that for a sec.

[MTAFFI]

there is more than one definition. Just because thats how its being used now, doesnt mean that exactly the definition. The definition is always changing when they want to fit it for a purpose.


Ex:

so by your thoughts a terrorist is anyone who kills someone else? I think you are making this something it isnt, he wasnt a terrorist he was a cold blooded killer. Please tell me where he stated a purpose political, religious or otherwise. He was picked on, he didnt like people and he was delusional. Sorry he is just another wacko, although if you really need him to be, you can classify him however you wish.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I would take him to be just a blood thirsty killer if he hadnt brought religion into it, But thats not the case. Err but I think I've gone off topic. I apologise if i DID offend anyone...I get angry quick.
Peace

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Maasha Allaah kool article sis Shirein. :)


Sis jazzy, allow it. What they class as terrorist today will be a best friend tomorrow, so there's really no point arguing. It's common sense that anyone who instills terror into others is terrorising them, so yes - that guy could be classed as one.

[Uthman]

:sl:

I would never compare myself to our Beloved Prophet. Cuz I know I'll never be anywhere near him. SubhanAllah. And I feel more annoyed than what I'm showing. So think bout that for a sec.

Sister Jazzy, I know we disagree on this but I just want to clarify my position in case anyone misunderstands.

I never asked you to compare yourself to our beloved Prophet. Rather, I asked you to take his example. It is said after all in 33:21 that:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported to have said:

'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)

Anyway, do not worry for I was not offended and I do apologise for going off-topic.

:w:

Hi MTAFFI,



What does esp. mean?

:w:

especially

Then, from your definition, a political purpose is not required for an act to be labelled terrorism.

Regards

[MTAFFI]

:sl:



Sister Jazzy, I know we disagree on this but I just want to clarify my position in case anyone misunderstands.

I never asked you to compare yourself to our beloved Prophet. Rather, I asked you to take his example. It is said after all in 33:21 that:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported to have said:

'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)

Anyway, do not worry for I was not offended and I do apologise for going off-topic.

:w:



Then, from your definition, a political purpose is not required for an act to be labelled terrorism.

Regards

I suppose that could be true, but who was he intimidating or coercing? Anyone who could have been intimidated was eliminated and there was no coercing, he wanted nothing but people to die.

Also to Jazzy, did he say that he would do everything he did in the name of God or Jesus? Or did he simply mention Jesus?

Personally I dont care if he is a terrorist or a killer, it doesnt change the nature of his being, so anyone can label them whatever they want and in a certain light he could be either. However, I dont know what this has to do with Muslim terrorist or how it is supposed to change anything about them, they are equally as bad as this guy, in my opinion. So many people speaking out about this guy, wanting to label him, too bad no one wants to say anything about the ones in Iraq, Afghan or other places. Cant you see you are concentrating on the wrong thing here?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No, cuz unfortunately, its the topic of the century. Can't u tell? :X

[Cognescenti]

:sl: Jazzy,

Then would you imagine Muhammad (pbuh) saying such a thing to Cognescenti if he were in your place?

If you can, then that's fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

:w:

Not to worry, Osman. Even though I am not of the Muslim faith, I find the words of the Prophet you posted here so undeniably sensible and humane, I will, unilaterally, it seems, attempt to adhere to them in this thread.

As for the use of the word "ignorant", yes..it does mean one who is unaware or ill-informed or who does not know. Even though it might be misconstrued in less friendly environs as an insult, I do not take offence, for, in her heart, I'm sure that was not Jazzy's intent :X

Meanwhile I am going to think a bit over the delicious irony of the use of "cognescenti" and "ignorant" in such close proximity.

[MTAFFI]

No, cuz unfortunately, its the topic of the century. Can't u tell? :X

And I suppose you are referring to the VT incident, correct me if I am wrong..

[Shirien]

lol wow subhanallah, it's nice to see some discussion. if you want to know what i mean about hate mail, just go to the website and see all the comments people posted under my column :D

walhamdulillah. honestly if someone calls you moderate these days, that's an insult. You know you're on the truth when people think your "extreme" when all you're doing is following the way of the Salaf.

wallahu ta'ala alem.

anyway I could tell that you were non-muslim from your first couple of posts in this thread.

I'm not going to sugarcoat Islam or the reality of things. those who have a hatred in their hearts for Islam, those whom Allah has put a seal on their hearts will NEVER be pleased with Muslims, until muslims compromise their deen.

Nasrullah wa fathu kareeb.

We won't compromise, and the Victory of Allah is near.. walhamdulillah.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^:thumbs_up :D

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


2ryt, masha Allaah! :)

[Cognescenti]

..
anyway I could tell that you were non-muslim from your first couple of posts in this thread.

Alas! I am discovered!

I'm not going to sugarcoat Islam or the reality of things. those who have a hatred in their hearts for Islam, those whom Allah has put a seal on their hearts will NEVER be pleased with Muslims, until muslims compromise their deen.

Nasrullah wa fathu kareeb.

We won't compromise, and the Victory of Allah is near.. walhamdulillah.

Compromise? Who said anything about compromise? Want to dress according to hijab..fine with me. Let me tell you a story about cultural mistrust (because most of the problem is cultural..not religious when you get down to it). I am a pediatrician. I was assigned a newborn to see in the hospital. The nurses stop me beforehand and warn me the father is "very aggressive" and he is literally frighteneing the nurses and making all kinds of demands. He stands very close, speaks loudly and brusquely as if speaking to a servant. I look at the name on the chart and I begin to understand. I enter the room..it is semi private with a curtain separating the two beds. The baby is on the far side of the room..so I knock and introduce myself..a woman says "come in". I walk across the room and this really intense Syrian guy (the dad) literally jumps out of his chair and blocks my path like a linebacker and stands about 6 inches away staring me down with a scowl on his face a bunch of hair coming out of his shirt. He refuses my offer of a handshake. So I'm thinking "what a nutjob". I can see why he scared the nurses but I am bigger than him and I can see that he also has a look of uncertainty in his face. Then it occurs to me that he doesn't want me to get too close to his wife. So I stand back behind the curtain so I can only see him and direct him to bring the baby over. The whole scene is absurd because now I am standing on the side of the curtain with an unrelated Mexican American mom. While Mr. Syria is getting the baby, I make the universal crazy sign and quietly say "loco" and by her laughter I can see I have permission to check the other mom's baby on her side of the room. He asks me when it is safe to fly the baby back to Syria and I say about 30 days and he tells me it is 40 days (IIRC) according to his custom (Syrian or Islam I'm not sure). I think he was relieved to deduce from my name I wasn't Jewish too. Now we are best buds :rollseyes

The point of the story is, he didn't need to "compromise" his beliefs. He could have saved himself and the staff grief had he simply clearly expressed his wishes ahead of time (and paid the extra $100 for a private room ..the cheapskate). Who was at fault here for the is lack of understanding? Did the nurses have "Hatred in their hearts"? These were educated American women. They are not accustomed to being treated like servants and they resented it...and they were physically afraid of him. He may, however. well go home and tell his family about the "hatred" of Americans toward Islam. They will likely accept the claim because it fits their existing template.

As 90% of the deaths in Iraq are now do to intersectarian hatred, I would suggest to you an unpleasant reality. Most of the "hatred towad Islam" comes from within. On this forum, Jews and Americans are routinely savaged with shockingly anit-Semitic or anti-American rants based largely on propaganda...but when one types in the name of a certain 19th century Saudi the very word is blocked by the software as if it were an obsenity.

There is a lot of work to do and it isn't, as you imply with George Bush supporters at LSU.

BTW...I think I know what you mean with language like "Victory of Allah is near"...but I would suggest you be careful with the use of that phrase. We wouldn't want to promote any more Islam-haters..would we?

[Shirien]

thanks for trying to give me advice. however, i must decline. perhaps you didnt see that you were the perfect example of what I was saying when you said "perhaps you should avoid using words like...."

You're asking me to compromise :D.

who said anything about Compromise, Allah The Al-Mighty did in his Noble book, in the Chapter called "Al-Qalam" or "the Pen":

7. Verily, your Lord knows better, who (among men) has gone astray from His Path, and He knows better those who are guided.

8. So (O Muhammad SAW) obey not the deniers [(of Islâmic Monotheism those who belie the Verses of Allâh), the Oneness of Allâh, and the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad SAW), etc.][]

9. They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so they (too) would compromise with you.

[MTAFFI]

thanks for trying to give me advice. however, i must decline. perhaps you didnt see that you were the perfect example of what I was saying when you said "perhaps you should avoid using words like...."

You're asking me to compromise :D.

who said anything about Compromise, Allah The Al-Mighty did in his Noble book, in the Chapter called "Al-Qalam" or "the Pen":

7. Verily, your Lord knows better, who (among men) has gone astray from His Path, and He knows better those who are guided.

8. So (O Muhammad SAW) obey not the deniers [(of Islâmic Monotheism those who belie the Verses of Allâh), the Oneness of Allâh, and the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad SAW), etc.][]

9. They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so they (too) would compromise with you.

so it is your way or the highway huh?

[- Qatada -]

so it is your way or the highway huh?

Doesn't she have the right to her opinions either?

[King Solomon]

Doesn't she have the right to her opinions either?

Yeah she does but MT was just expressing his

[MTAFFI]

Doesn't she have the right to her opinions either?

I never indicated, suggested or otherwise to that, just asking a simple question, is it her way or the highway, she is saying there is no compromise

[skhalid]

Subhanallah..alhamdulillah..walailahailallah allahuakbar!!!!

Our Lord! Take us not to task if we forget or fall into error. (2:286)

[Cognescenti]

thanks for trying to give me advice. however, i must decline. perhaps you didnt see that you were the perfect example of what I was saying when you said "perhaps you should avoid using words like...."

You're asking me to compromise :D.

I most certainly am not asking you to compromise on your religious beliefs. Is there some type of Quranic order that you purposely use the phrase "Victory of Allah is near" when the tensions between Muslims and essentially everyone else in the world are at the highest levels in 1000 yrs??? You can't pretend you are being persecuted when you purposely choose to confront non-Muslims for no more apparent reason than the joy of confrontation. Do you imagine this will win converts? Do you think this will gain you sympathy with the media? Political support? How do expect a non-Muslim to view a provocative phrase like that? If you choose to pull the tiger's tail then don't whine when you get bit...(and there is no small measure of whining in your column).

who said anything about Compromise, Allah The Al-Mighty did in his Noble book, in the Chapter called "Al-Qalam" or "the Pen":

7. Verily, your Lord knows better, who (among men) has gone astray from His Path, and He knows better those who are guided.

8. So (O Muhammad SAW) obey not the deniers [(of Islâmic Monotheism those who belie the Verses of Allâh), the Oneness of Allâh, and the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad SAW), etc.][]

9. They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so they (too) would compromise with you.

Fine. Don't compromise. Show your intolerance of the dominant culture in which you are living, and you can expect reciprocity. Why not reject the kuffar ways altogether? Reject roads which are constructed by kuffars with the taxes of non-believers. Reject the buildings of LSU or the newspaper which are funded with taxes on cigarettes and alcohol. Oops...look...you ARE compromising! :-[ Perhaps you should declare a philosophical objection to paying kuffar taxes which are funding a war to exterminate all Muslims (we are told).

I'll look forward to a small notice in the LSU newspaper when you are led away to <insert name of favorite US prison where torture is routinely practiced on the direct order of Alberto Gonzalez> because of your tax protest. You want to be the Muslim equivalent of Patrick Henry then do something about it and quit whining.

[Muezzin]

And I thought Muslims had chips on their shoulders...

The truth is, everyone is hypersensitive. 'Victory of Allah is near' means 'God will be victorious'. It's not a threat. It's a statement of fact for people who believe in a deity. If you think it is a threat, you are either woefully uninformed or simply acting like a jumpy idiot. Cho was not a terrorist, he had no political aims, and if you think he is, you are also either woefully uninformed or acting like a jumpy idiot.

I don't agree with whining for whining's sake, but I also don't agree with justifying my obvious bias against a certain group because of an altercation with a hairy Syrian ambassador from said group.

Stop acting like children, everyone. No more taking people's words absurdly out of context to further juvenile agendas. No more caustic sarcasm solely calculated to cause offence. Grow up.

[Shirien]

is my way the right way?

The way of The Quran and Sunnah and the way of the first 3 generations is the right way.

I ask Allah subhana wa ta'ala to guide me to the straight path, ameen.

Cognescenti, your logic is flawed, and hardly worth my time in replying. Compromising in religion is not an option.

it's obligitory for us to covey the message, and it's also obligitory for those who receive the message to accept the message before they die. However, with that said the hearts belong to Allah. He guides whom he wills.

If you actually read my writing, I never once said im "anti-american" or anything of that sort. I simply tell it how it is and reveal the injustices done to Muslims in the west through media propoganda.

I convey what Islam TRUELY teaches, rather than what CNN teaches Islam teaches.

yes, it is true the Victory of Allah is near.. because Allah 'az wa jal says so in The Quran, and everything in the Quran is truth.

so in essence, the statements that you had a problem with me about, were in reality Statements Allah made in His book. you openly declare you're disbelief in Islam(may Allah guide you, ameen).

So in that case it's really not worth my time to argue back and forth with you. especially because you have a problem with the words of the One who created you...

have a nice day, and i ask Allah sincerely from my heart to guide you and to show you the truth, ameen.

Shirien

[Muezzin]

I believe the resentment against Cho not being labelled a terrorist was completely misplaced. By that logic, the boys at Columbine are terrrorists, as was the psycho at Dunblane. The absence of any political motive precludes the label's use.

I'll look forward to a small notice in the LSU newspaper when you are led away to <insert name of favorite US prison where torture is routinely practiced on the direct order of Alberto Gonzalez> because of your tax protest. You want to be the Muslim equivalent of Patrick Henry then do something about it and quit whining.

This sort of bitterness was completely unjustified and is instead indicative of a bias on your part. To use your own logic: You want people to stop thinking Americans are a bunch of right-wing gung-ho arrogant stereotypes who shout down any form of disagreement? Stop acting like one.

[Uthman]

:sl: brother Muezzin,

The absence of any political motive precludes the label's use.

I disagree with this. The definitions of terrorism are many, but even the ones that I have seen do not claim that terrorism is comprised solely of political motives. They could be religious, ideological e.t.c.

But in all honesty, I don't think a dictionary is even required to define terrorism. The term is pretty self-explanatory.

:w:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^It is..

[Cognescenti]

And I thought Muslims had chips on their shoulders...

Perhaps you are right..this idea that all problems Southwest of the Dardenelles are magically the fault of some Western governmental or media cabal is tiresome.

The truth is, everyone is hypersensitive. 'Victory of Allah is near' means 'God will be victorious'. It's not a threat. It's a statement of fact for people who believe in a deity. If you think it is a threat, you are either woefully uninformed or simply acting like a jumpy idiot.

Look...I assumed it was some statement of the rightness of one's belief...I merely suggested (politely at that point) it could easily be misperceived. I was not so politely told to go jump in a lake (with a few Quranic citations thrown in for good measure)

I don't agree with whining for whining's sake, but I also don't agree with justifying my obvious bias against a certain group because of an altercation with a hairy Syrian ambassador from said group.

"hairy Syrian Ambassador"...that is pretty funny.

"obvious bias against a certain group"????...completely unfair characterization! Dang that makes me angry. Did I make any generalizations except my premise that cultural misunderstanding are perceived differently by those on opposite sides?

No more caustic sarcasm solely calculated to cause offence. Grow up.

Not fair either. You are perhaps right about the causticity but it wasn't calculated to cause offence and was certainly not more so than the shot acorss my bow.

Why is it than any non-Muslim who makes a vigorous argument against the claim of systematic maltreatment of Muslims by the media or the US Government or <insert name of Western entity here> is a racist or Islamophobe?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Why is it than any non-Muslim who makes a vigorous argument against the claim of systematic maltreatment of Muslims by the media or the US Government or <insert name of Western entity here> is a racist or Islamophobe?

You know we could ask u the same.

[Cognescenti]

You know we could ask u the same.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

When we do the same, do some of you not almost die trying to prove us wrong and claim we dont know anything? If you really want to be treated that way, it's best to start with yourself, then bother trying to tell someone else what is true/false, right/wrong according to your "book."

Elaborate enough I hope?

Now I'm off to do some calculus hw...

Peace.

[Cognescenti]

When we do the same, do some of you not almost die trying to prove us wrong and claim we dont know anything? If you really want to be treated that way, it's best to start with yourself, then bother trying to tell someone else what is true/false, right/wrong according to your "book."

Elaborate enough I hope?

Now I'm off to do some calculus hw...

Peace.

I think it is quite natural for an American or a Brit to take offense when someone makes what they feel is an incorrect generalization or insulting claim about their country. That is a bit different from making the charge that the speaker is racist. I have yet to see a non-Muslim say..."oh..you just hate white people"

If you figure out how delta-epsilon proofs work, let me know.

[Khan-Ghalgha]

is my way the right way?

The way of The Quran and Sunnah and the way of the first 3 generations is the right way.

I ask Allah subhana wa ta'ala to guide me to the straight path, ameen.

Cognescenti, your logic is flawed, and hardly worth my time in replying. Compromising in religion is not an option.

it's obligitory for us to covey the message, and it's also obligitory for those who receive the message to accept the message before they die. However, with that said the hearts belong to Allah. He guides whom he wills.

If you actually read my writing, I never once said im "anti-american" or anything of that sort. I simply tell it how it is and reveal the injustices done to Muslims in the west through media propoganda.

I convey what Islam TRUELY teaches, rather than what CNN teaches Islam teaches.

yes, it is true the Victory of Allah is near.. because Allah 'az wa jal says so in The Quran, and everything in the Quran is truth.

so in essence, the statements that you had a problem with me about, were in reality Statements Allah made in His book. you openly declare you're disbelief in Islam(may Allah guide you, ameen).

So in that case it's really not worth my time to argue back and forth with you. especially because you have a problem with the words of the One who created you...

have a nice day, and i ask Allah sincerely from my heart to guide you and to show you the truth, ameen.

What would you think if some jehova witness comes up to you and says that if you won't accept jehova as the true God then you will not be resurrected after you die and vanish forever? Thought about it? That what Cognesti thinks(I think so) reading your posts, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I think it is quite natural for an American or a Brit to take offense when someone makes what they feel is an incorrect generalization or insulting claim about their country.

Its naturally ok for an American or Brit to feel insulted about a a piece of land, but it's not ok for a Muslim to feel insulted when their identity is being degraded to the point of emotional stress?

That is a bit different from making the charge that the speaker is racist.

How so? Your still attacking something someone finds close to them.

I have yet to see a non-Muslim say..."oh..you just hate white people"

YOU have yet to see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. You need to escape the mentality of Utopia sometimes and hit gear back to reality.

If you figure out how delta-epsilon proofs work, let me know.

I'm past delta-epsilon proofs. I'm taking calc 2 rite now. Got an A :D

Peace

[Shirien]

What would you think if some jehova witness comes up to you and says that if you won't accept jehova as the true God then you will not be resurrected after you die and vanish forever? Thought about it? That what Cognesti thinks(I think so) reading your posts, correct me if I'm wrong.

again, i dont need to say so because Allah subhana wa ta'ala says so in the Quran itself, which was revealed to all mankind.

surely i wouldnt approach anyone with dawah in this way, but seeing as though they already received the message and still rejects it, makes it different.

wallahu ta'ala alem.

[snakelegs]

:sl: brother Muezzin,

I disagree with this. The definitions of terrorism are many, but even the ones that I have seen do not claim that terrorism is comprised solely of political motives. They could be religious, ideological e.t.c.

But in all honesty, I don't think a dictionary is even required to define terrorism. The term is pretty self-explanatory.

:w:

i agree with muezzin. "terrorist" in my mind is someone who attacks innocents in the name of a cause - an ideology, a religion whatever. and "christian terrorist" in this case is even more far-fetched. i do not think he did it in the name of religion. he was simply a nut case.
you have a valid point about the portrayal of muslims in the media, but i don't think this case was a good example to make your case at all.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^It being in the name of an ideology or political agenda is not the only definition. This is something many fail to grasp. So i dont agree with Muezzins statement. Terrorism isnt confined to one definition, let alone even 2. Its chosn to be the main definition because thats the context its always used in.

[Muezzin]

Perhaps you are right..this idea that all problems Southwest of the Dardenelles are magically the fault of some Western governmental or media cabal is tiresome.

Tell me about it.

Look...I assumed it was some statement of the rightness of one's belief...I merely suggested (politely at that point) it could easily be misperceived. I was not so politely told to go jump in a lake (with a few Quranic citations thrown in for good measure)

Yes, you were polite at first, but I don't think that her reply was impolite (though it could have been phrased more clearly), I think you simply took it the wrong way.

But I apologise if you feel I treated you unfairly.

"hairy Syrian Ambassador"...that is pretty funny.

Only with your set up :p

"obvious bias against a certain group"????...completely unfair characterization! Dang that makes me angry. Did I make any generalizations except my premise that cultural misunderstanding are perceived differently by those on opposite sides?

Funny. One line in your post really made me angry as I felt it was unfair.

Fine. Don't compromise. Show your intolerance of the dominant culture in which you are living, and you can expect reciprocity.

Seriously, what the hell? All she said was, in religion, there is no compromise. As in, 'I'm not going to go drinking just because someone asked me to, since it's against my religion'. You seemed to interpret it as some sort of sign of extremism, and then used it as a basis to justify reprisals ('expect reciprocity').

Look, when Muslims say stuff like 'there is no compromise in Islam', it's not to spite others, it's just a statement of fact. You then distorted her words into some absurd notion that Muslims should object to 'kuffar taxes' and kuffar this and that... By that logic, simply living in a non-Muslim country would be compromising, which is ludicrous!

In this case, however, I concede that there was misunderstanding on all sides (including mine), so I apologise if my generalisation was so inaccurate as to be offensive. It was improper of me.

Not fair either. You are perhaps right about the causticity but it wasn't calculated to cause offence and was certainly not more so than the shot acorss my bow.

Well, it does cause offence. I apologise if I treated you unfairly if it was not your intention to cause offence, but there it is. There are way too many caustic remarks in this section (some of which I have just made come to think of it), and it just worsens things.

Why is it than any non-Muslim who makes a vigorous argument against the claim of systematic maltreatment of Muslims by the media or the US Government or <insert name of Western entity here> is a racist or Islamophobe?

In your case, can you really blame me? Take a look at many of your posts - all you seem to do is crack wise about Muslims, Islam, or Iran with little to no regard for the sensitivity of the areas you are probing with your ironic machete.

Also, that logic goes both ways: I've seen certain Americans cry 'Anti-American' every time someone makes a valid criticism of the government's policies. Surely, if I was posting on a forum about America (and it is clear that particular forum is pro-America) you'd come to the conclusion that I was anti-American if the majority of my messages were making caustic remarks about the American way of life or its government.

And I don't play the 'Islamaphobe' card 'any time' non-Muslims refute notions of media mistreatment. I argue against the systematic maltreatment of Muslims by the media, (and the US Government for that matter) because the notion is patently absurd. There's no worldwide master plan to make Muslims suffer, but there are bad things happening to Muslims and non-Muslims worldwide.

If I have treated you or other members unfairly or harshly, I apologise.

[Uthman]

Snakelegs,

i agree with muezzin. "terrorist" in my mind is someone who attacks innocents in the name of a cause - an ideology, a religion whatever. and "christian terrorist" in this case is even moreI far-fetched. i do not think he did it in the name of religion. he was simply a nut case.
you have a valid point about the portrayal of muslims in the media, but i don't think this case was a good example to make your case at all.

I think you misunderstood me. :) I do not claim that he was a 'Christian terrorist', but he was simply a 'terrorist'. Why? He caused terror. I seriously think we are going into too much depth trying to define terrorism when all we really need is an understanding of the English language. I think sister Jazzy summed it up perfectly:

Terrorism isnt confined to one definition, let alone even 2. Its chosn to be the main definition because thats the context its always used in.

So I'm with Jazzy with this one. Or rather Jazzy is with me. Hmmm...

Regards

[Muezzin]

The word 'terrorism' has political connotations nowadays though, and it's not just causing terror that invokes the label, it's intending to cause terror. If a guy falls asleep at the wheel, he might cause terror to other motorists, but he's not a terrorist (just an irresponsible idiot). In Virginia Tech, he had no political motives, and no intent to cause fear so much as to just release all the aggression he had built up for some unknown reason. Don't get me wrong, his actions are morally repugnant, and a massacre, and criminal, and if he hadn't killed himself he should have been punished. But I've seen no evidence to say they were terrorist as the word is generally understood.

Terrorism is a very hard word to define, however, since it's such an inflammatory label.

[Cognescenti]

Snakelegs,



I think you misunderstood me. :) I do not claim that he was a 'Christian terrorist', but he was simply a 'terrorist'. Why? He caused terror. I seriously think we are going into too much depth trying to define terrorism when all we really need is an understanding of the English language. I think sister Jazzy summed it up perfectly:



So I'm with Jazzy with this one. Or rather Jazzy is with me. Hmmm...

Regards

If the definition of terrorism is the infliction of terror on the victim during an act of murder then almost every act of murder would be an act of terrorism as the victim almost always has some warning or foreboding about the events to come. We already have a word for that...such an individual is called a "murderer". New words come into the language because there is a need to elaborate or distinguish between concepts. Pretending, later, that that divergent words mean the same thing doesn't make the original motivation for the new word go away.

There is also the point that the "ism" suffix is perceived by most to represent the doctrine or philosophy or motivation behind an act or practice

[Uthman]

:sl: brother Muezzin,

The word 'terrorism' has political connotations nowadays though

Agreed

it's not just causing terror that invokes the label, it's intending to cause terror. If a guy falls asleep at the wheel, he might cause terror to other motorists, but he's not a terrorist (just an irresponsible idiot).

That is true. I hadn't thought of this.

In Virginia Tech, he had no political motives, and no intent to cause fear so much as to just release all the aggression he had built up for some unknown reason. Don't get me wrong, his actions are morally repugnant, and a massacre, and criminal, and if he hadn't killed himself he should have been punished. But I've seen no evidence to say they were terrorist as the word is generally understood.

(emphasis mine)

That's the thing. Understanding of certain terms change as times change. In this day and age, terrorism is, as you say, 'generally understood' in a political context. But because a word is understood in a certain way, doesn't mean to say that it can no longer be defined in any other context.

Terrorism is a very hard word to define, however, since it's such an inflammatory label.

With respect, I don't think that's necessarily true. The word does get thrown around a lot, but not unjustifiably from what I've seen.

:w:

[Uthman]

Cognescenti,

New words come into the language because there is a need to elaborate or distinguish between concepts. Pretending, later, that that divergent words mean the same thing doesn't make the original motivation for the new word go away.

I'm not contradicting or disagreeing necessarily with you here, but is there historical evidence to say that the word terrorism was created to distinguish between murder and another concept?

Also, is it then possible that the word was created to, as you mentioned, elaborate on the concept of murder in some way?

There is also the point that the "ism" suffix is perceived by most to represent the doctrine or philosophy or motivation behind an act or practice

I apologise but the mind boggles. :-[ Is it possible to explain this in simpler terms so that I can understand properly.

From what I understood, this would imply that a word like terrorism would be the doctrine, philosphy or motivation behind a practice like, for example, murder. Something like that?

Regards

[Cognescenti]

....
From what I understood, this would imply that a word like terrorism would be the doctrine, philosphy or motivation behind a practice like, for example, murder. Something like that?

Regards

Well..more generally, the suffix "ism" can be added to a verb to make a noun of it...like "ostracize" and "ostracism" and doesn't always apply to a philosphy or common goal but it has certainly acquired that meaning more strongly in the 20th century.....eg., Nazism, Communism, Capitalism

Just like "genocide" was coined to express a particular type of organized, systematic murder, terrorism has come to mean the willful causation of terror (particularly among the helpless and innocent) to achieve some kind of political goal. So, I think in the common understanding, terrorism is understood to include a degree of planning to achieve a goal, which to be gained by causing widespread human suffering. In that sense it is a way of thinking or a belief system because it requires the adherent to dispense with the antiquated notion that innocents should not be murdered. It is more than simply sawing off a reporter's head. It requires that the act by publicized (Cho did that here too but there is nobody to credibly take up his cause..because he didn't really have one...except inside his own crazy head)

BTW, it is even possible to commit terrorism without murdering anyone (hijackings).

Bah...bad explanation..too many words :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The word 'terrorism' has political connotations nowadays though, and it's not just causing terror that invokes the label, it's intending to cause terror.

I think I'm possibly starting to agree with u but you mentioned its intending to cause terror. Was he also not doing that? He even made a video of himself with threats to everyone, holding a gun to himself (yes a nutcase lol), then he purposely goes in the school randomly shooting.

But you know i have to agree. It IS a difficult word to define. So I guess I could say I agree with that, partially. The reason why u cant call him a terrorist is cuz he was basically mentally disturbed. In other words, a psycho. That jus gets me to raise another question. How do we know other "terrorists" are not psychos? But I guess thats not for this thread.


:sl:

[Cognescenti]

...In your case, can you really blame me? Take a look at many of your posts - all you seem to do is crack wise about Muslims, Islam, or Iran with little to no regard for the sensitivity of the areas you are probing with your ironic machete.

I have certainly made fun of Iran. That is true. I have not purposely lampooned Islam or Muslims in general.

Also, that logic goes both ways: I've seen certain Americans cry 'Anti-American' every time someone makes a valid criticism of the government's policies. Surely, if I was posting on a forum about America (and it is clear that particular forum is pro-America) you'd come to the conclusion that I was anti-American if the majority of my messages were making caustic remarks about the American way of life or its government.

Still, the claim of anti-Americanism doesn't have quite the baggage that a claim of racism or Islamophobia has. In fact, overt anti-Americanism is good for street cred in many parts of the world.

One day, the Americans (except the inveterate anti-American Americans) will pick up their marbles and go home.....and then you will all be sorry :)

[Muezzin]

I have certainly made fun of Iran. That is true. I have not purposely lampooned Islam or Muslims in general.

Then I have slandered you. I'm sorry.

Still, the claim of anti-Americanism doesn't have quite the baggage that a claim of racism or Islamophobia has. In fact, overt anti-Americanism is good for street cred in many parts of the world.

True, but you see my point, right?

One day, the Americans (except the inveterate anti-American Americans) will pick up their marbles and go home.....and then you will all be sorry :)

Nah, I actually don't want them to leave Iraq until they've cleaned up the mess that I believe wouldn't be there (or at least be so bad) if they had stayed out in the first place, but that's a debate/fight for another thread in this warzone. :p :)

And just to be clear, I'm not anti-American. The country and what it stands for are great. It's the current administration that I dislike.

[Cognescenti]

Then I have slandered you. I'm sorry.

Nah.."slander" is way to harsh. It was more that you hurt my feelings and made me want to cry. :laugh:

Nah, I actually don't want them to leave Iraq until they've cleaned up the mess that I believe wouldn't be there (or at least be so bad) if they had stayed out in the first place, but that's a debate/fight for another thread in this warzone. :p :)

And just to be clear, I'm not anti-American. The country and what it stands for are great. It's the current administration that I dislike.

No..I was talking about Americans leaving the forum..not Iraq :D

Bush will be out of office on January 20, 2009...then all those who dislike "current American policy" will annoint themselves with rosewater, addorn themselves in red, white and blue, march on the nearest US Embassy, join hands and sing "God Bless America" and the "Star Spangled Banner" until they are hoarse. :) :thumbs_up

[جوري]

Shirien; That must be very satisfying to write a column like that. From where (or whom) does the hate mail come? If this is an example of your writing it seems quite sensible and is hardly hate-worthy.

I'd imagine it would come from folks such as yourself.. good riddance and may Hugo soon follow in your footsteps of good riddance..

on a different note.. why doesn't shirin write here anymore?

:w:

[GuestFellow]

How old is this topic? o_o

[جوري]

I am a pediatrician.

and it shows..

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...tml#post900138

an angry syrian would have been the least of your problems in that case me thinkus, you'd be better off with an 'ignorant' angry syrian than someone who sues your behind for being remiss with diagnosis or worse feigning to be something you are not like more NP's out there!

all the best

[جوري]

How old is this topic? o_o

so old but I can't believe I have missed it!

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

How old is this topic? o_o

Apparently there are not enough posts to currently hate on, so we have taken to looking back three years to find missed opportunities. Hilarious ain't it?

[جوري]

to currently hate on

and isn't it amazing that in contrast to the note of love, tolerance and abridging of differences as is in the original article of the editor and her supporter we get such a stark contrast of hate/ anger disharmony from our former resident troll and now out current ones!
It seems to upset you for one to point out the obvious.. if the forum here upsets your delicate balance then perhaps you are best suited for the dawkins one.. no hate or F words exist there from my understanding!

all the best

[Uthman]

LOL! You guys crack me up. This place hasn't changed one bit. :D

[GuestFellow]

Shouldn't this article be in French?

Bonjour.

Pourquoi devrait-il être en français?

A burka maybe. Limted access to higher education...definitely.

How? I seen loads of women wearing the Niqaab going to University. o_o

[Pygoscelis]

Prof, I don't think he/she is going to answer you, given she left the forum years ago and that post you're replying to is 3 years old :p

[GuestFellow]

^ Oh...I didn't spot that. -_-;;