Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist

[mohammed farah]

There's no such thing as al Qaeda, or al Qaida, or however you want to spell it. It's a fraud perpetrated on the British and American people by the governments to scare us into submission. This is a clip from the excellent three-part BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...48649&hl=en-GB

[NoName55]

thread title is a bit iffy but a good docu nonetheless

wasalaam

edit
full dvd available now at archives org

[Woodrow]

I had deleted this thread as being conspiracy theory. However I did some more checking. I did find out that the BBC did broadcast the movies this film clip came from as a documentary.

The Power of Nightmares, subtitled The Rise of the Politics of Fear, is a BBC series of documentary films, written and produced by Adam Curtis.

This documentary argues that during the 20th Century politicians lost the power to inspire the masses, and that the optimistic visions and ideologies they had offered were perceived to have failed. The film asserts that politicians consequently sought a new role that would restore their power and authority. Curtis, who also narrates the series, declares in the film's introduction that “Instead of delivering dreams, politicians now promise to protect us: from nightmares”. To illustrate this Curtis compares the rise of the American neoconservatives and radical Islamists, believing that both are closely connected; that some popular beliefs about these groups are inaccurate; and that both movements have benefited from exaggerating the scale of the terrorist threat.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares


I have reopened th thread on the basis that the film the clip came from did originate from a legitimate News source. At the moment I am downloading the entire original movies. That will take some time as I have a very slow connection and it is not reliable. Because a legitimate News agency did recognise it as a documentary. I feel I can not label it as a conspiracy theiory until I know more about it. At the moment I have to accept it as coming from a legitimate news source.

[mohammed farah]

OK thanks

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[Chechnya]

I have reopened th thread on the basis that the film the clip came from did originate from a legitimate News source. At the moment I am downloading the entire original movies. That will take some time as I have a very slow connection and it is not reliable. Because a legitimate News agency did recognise it as a documentary. I feel I can not label it as a conspiracy theiory until I know more about it. At the moment I have to accept it as coming from a legitimate news source.

Its a good docu, bro - i recommend it

its not really a conspiracy theory in that it doenst say Bin Laden wasnt behind 9-11 or anything like that - its main theme is that the supposed power of Bin Ladens organisaton has been blown out of all proportion in order to intimidate western populations into submission

it also charts the rise of the "Islamists" and the neo-cons and shows how together these two enemies have risen to change the world as we know it - interesting stuff :)

[DAWUD_adnan]

I Knew iT!!!, i told EverOne But No One Would BeliEve mE !!!

[snakelegs]

Its a good docu, bro - i recommend it

its not really a conspiracy theory in that it doenst say Bin Laden wasnt behind 9-11 or anything like that - its main theme is that the supposed power of Bin Ladens organisaton has been blown out of all proportion in order to intimidate western populations into submission

it also charts the rise of the "Islamists" and the neo-cons and shows how together these two enemies have risen to change the world as we know it - interesting stuff :)

unfortuneately i can't watch it, but it sounds good.
i have believed all along that the power of al-qaeda was greatly exaggerated. important people are raking in big bucks from this "war on terrorism".
politically, there are few things better for the powerful as a never-ending war.

[lavikor201]

There's no such thing as al Qaeda, or al Qaida, or however you want to spell it. It's a fraud perpetrated on the British and American people by the governments to scare us into submission. This is a clip from the excellent three-part BBC documentary "The Power of Nightmares".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...48649&hl=en-GB

I have never seen such ignorance, better yet, stupidity.

[NoName55]

I have never seen such ignorance, better yet, stupidity.

is this not personal abuse?:X:cry:

[mohammed farah]

I have never seen such ignorance, better yet, stupidity.

But where's the prove that AL Qaeda really does exists. because all I have seen is some videos with Osama bin laden declaring war on the west and a few pictures of men with guns In the background.

[lavikor201]

But where's the prove that AL Qaeda really does exists. because all I have seen is some videos with Osama bin laden declaring war on the west and a few pictures of men with guns In the background.

Maybe the fact that they have posted on websites that they have existed, and claimed responsibility for many attacks long before 9/11.


Maybe that the financial records of their activity and recruiting in various places has been known long before 9/11.

Did you see the interviews of Osama Bin Laden by Peter Bergen?

is this not personal abuse?:X:cry:

How so, I am not insulting the poster. I am insulting the idea of the video.

[Dahir]

Al Qaeda is something that has greatly stifled me.

To some extent I can see that they are Islamic revivalists who have been banned in their homelands, who are now banding to take back what's theirs. Sort of like international exiles with a little bit of power, who through money and sheer influence and propaganda, can do a lot of damage.

Another thing is that the Taliban, a purely legitimate group, have spoken much about protecting Al Qaeda, and how many Afghanis are very aware of Al Qaeda, sort of as second citizens in their country.


My belief has always been this:

Al Qaeda and Osama were great friends of the Reagan administration, during the age where the growing Islamic revival groups were combatting communism in Afghanistan and throughout the Muslim world. Then, in 1991, when the USSR broke, the US found no reason to continue supporting the Mujahideen. And things hit fever pitch when the US, as a show that the Islamists were flushed out, parked a chunk of its military next door to Mecca. That's when Al Qaeda and the collective community of other self-proclaimed Mujahideen broke from the US and became their own entity.

Just my theory on all of this...

[lavikor201]

Peter Bergen, a CNN journalist known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, refuted Cook's notion, stating on August 15 2006:

The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA did not understand who Osama was until 1996, when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...ers/index.html

[nurul3eyn]

I always beleived the whole al qaedah thing to be a propaganda just to degrade the muslims.
There is no such thing as al qaeda or usama bin laden it's just another movie
just like any other american movie.

[Keltoi]

This forum never ceases to amaze me.

[NoName55]

how about, once upon a time there lived three brothers in lands far apart.
big brother was called cia the middle one was known as mosad and the little one's name was isi. Then one day a big bad ogre who was named commie took over isi's neighbour's house and little brother was so afraid of the ogre that he called in his older 2 brothers for help.

since the three brothers did not want to be seen attacking the ogre lest the ogre be provoked into unleashing his arsenal of deadly radiation, so the brothers decide to hire idiots from around the world to front the fight while themselves got down to destroying the monster.

after the defeat of the monster the idiots of the world thought wow we iz great, if can destroy that big monster we can defy the brothers too, not realising that it was the brothers who actually fought the commie.

to be continued ...

[DAWUD_adnan]

Maybe the fact that they have posted on websites that they have existed, and claimed responsibility for many attacks long before 9/11.

Maybe that the financial records of their activity and recruiting in various places has been known long before 9/11.

Did you see the interviews of Osama Bin Laden by Peter Bergen?



How so, I am not insulting the poster. I am insulting the idea of the video.

they also claimed reponsibility for the spain bombings when it was clear that ETA was behind it....they said so them selves.

[wilberhum]

[B]


they also claimed reponsibility for the spain bombings when it was clear that ETA was behind it....they said so them selves.

How could ETA do it? They don't even exist. :?
The IRA doesn't either. :D
Come to think of it, I must not exist either. :skeleton:

[Hashim_507]

Al qaeda group is a boogeyman for the western world; just to scare people on daily life.

[mohammed farah]

How could ETA do it? They don't even exist. :?
The IRA doesn't either. :D
Come to think of it, I must not exist either. :skeleton:

ETA is a paramilitary Basque nationalist organization. ETA is classed as a terrorist group by the European Union,[1] the United States and the United Nations. ETA has committed approximately 900 killings and dozens of kidnappings. More than 500 ETA militants are held in prison in Spain and France.

IRA The Provisional IRA have killed more people than any other organisation since the Troubles began. In addition, they have killed more Roman Catholics, more Protestants, more civilians and more foreigners (those not from Northern Ireland) than any other organisation.

And I'm 100% sure that you exist.

[mohammed farah]

Maybe the fact that they have posted on websites that they have existed, and claimed responsibility for many attacks long before 9/11.


Maybe that the financial records of their activity and recruiting in various places has been known long before 9/11.

Did you see the interviews of Osama Bin Laden by Peter Bergen?



How so, I am not insulting the poster. I am insulting the idea of the video.

look at hezbollah its not run by al qaeda or funded, look at the ETA its not run by a al qaeda or funded, look at the IRA theyr not run by al qaeda or funded. and please tell me look at the bombing of the twin towers in 1994 i dont remember them saying al qaeda is behinded but it was osama bin laden, the only used the name al qaeda because it was givin to them by the U.S. after 9/11

And yes I have seen Peter Bergen documentary of osama bin laden.

[KAding]

Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist

This is not the opinion of any of the scholars and experts on the subject of Al-Qaeda I have read. I can't accept that they are all delusional and ignorant and that this documentary maker knows what he is talking about. "The power of nightmares" is trying to make a bigger point, in which Al-Qaeda is merely an example. I'd rather trust those who studied the subject for the sake of learning, rather than in search of material to make a documentary on the power of fear in politics.

To quote Gilles Kepel, who is a learned scholar on the international jihadist movement:

In 1986 Osama established several camps of his own within Afghanistan. His wealth and generosity, the simplicity of his behavior, his personal charm, and his bravery in battle soon became legendary. In 1988 he established a database of all the jihadists and other olunteers who had passed through his camps, and this gave birth to an organizational structure built around a computer file whose Arabic title Al Qaeda (The [Data]base) became famous only ten years later when it was portrayed by American Justice Department as the key to an ultra-secret terrorist network; this led to bin Laden's indictment for conspiracy.
<...>
[T]he attack on America meant that Al Qaeda and anyone suspected to be in touch with its network - which still remained fairly obscure - would be hunted down. Its infrastructure in Afghanistan, to the extend that is was known, was destroyed within a few months. Whether these search-and-destroy tactics will prove sufficient in the long run against a rather fluid network, whose very name refers to a world wide database of operatives, remains to be seen.

(Source: The Trail of Politcal Islam, Giles Kepel, 2002, p. 315 and 322)

Clearly Al Qaeda already existed before the US Justice Department indicted Bin Laden in the late 90s. The point one could make is that the media portrayal of Al Qaeda has been incorrect, since it is indeed a fairly loose network and not a bureaucratic organization with offices in downtown Kandahar. But I believe even the media - after all these years - has gotten the point now that Al Qaeda is not an organization like any other. It is indeed an fluid network of contacts, something Gilles Kepel and any expert I know understood, even back in 2002.

Besides, even if you insist on claiming Al Qaeda didn't exist before, surely you cannot claim it doesn't exist now, with all these organizations committing bombings and say they are "Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia" or "Al Qaeda in the Maghreb", etc. And if Al Qaeda doesn't exist, what to make of Bin Laden? Is his "Declaration of Jihad against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" a fraud as well? What is the point exactly? That he didn't have the means to fight such a jihad? That he never had the intention to fight it (ie. the declaration is a US invention)? Or that Bin Laden is on the US payroll? Read the declaration of jihad and tell me how American it sounds? Does it not include legitimate Muslim grievances?

None of this makes sense. If it is an American invention, it is a **** convincing one, fooling scholars and jihadist alike.

[KAding]

Al qaeda group is a boogeyman for the western world; just to scare people on daily life.

So does that mean it does not exist? That the organizations (in the UK, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, etc) that aligned themselves openly with Bin Laden and Zawahiri are:
1. Not part of "al-qaeda", but separate jihadist groups
2. Do not exist at all and did not commit any attacks

Does Al-Qaeda being a 'boogeyman' mean that there are no Muslim groups that are commiting terrorist attacks against Western interest? Or that they simply have nothing to do with al-qaeda? Could you clear that up a bit. Thanks :).

[Keltoi]

It is really disheartening that so many seem willing to defy logic and reason when it suits them. The media didn't invent Al-Qaeda, they invented themselves. They are fairly good at propoganda, spreading their message through videos and statements. By the way, it isn't the U.S. media who spreads these tapes and statements, it is Al-Jazeera. Pretending that Al-Qaeda doesn't exist might make some on this forum feel better, and I realize that self-imposed ignorance can be bliss, but thankfully there are many on this forum with a mind of their own and the ability to think rationally.

[NoName55]

any body and every body is alqaeda as long as you are in dispute with them.
does not really matter which country the rebellion is in it is alqaeda.

recently a British Police Chief described them as an international group of terrorists and sympathiser united by a common ideology but composed of independent cells without any central control and command centre.

in other words any Muslim anywhere can be accused of being one man alqaeda cell.

[Keltoi]

any body and every body is alqaeda as long as you are in dispute with them.
does not really matter which country the rebellion is in it is alqaeda.

recently a British Police Chief described them as an international group of terrorists and sympathiser united by a common ideology but composed of independent cells without any central control and command centre.

in other words any Muslim anywhere can be accused of being one man alqaeda cell.

That is why many refer to al-qaeda as a franchise. There are many groups who use the name because of the recognition it brings them.

[NoName55]

about 2 year ago a bearded old man of Pakistani appearance was robbed and beaten by a gang in Leeds England, he retaliated by going in to bruce li mode and used his walking stick on them.

when police arrived the muggers claimed that he was making a pro alqaeda speech at them and was swearing at them in arabic, they were merely trying to make a citizen's arrest. They were believed until it was discovered that he was not a Muslim But a Christian.

every brown person is alqaeda until proven otherwise

[DAWUD_adnan]

lol at racisim..

[KAding]

any body and every body is alqaeda as long as you are in dispute with them.
does not really matter which country the rebellion is in it is alqaeda.

recently a British Police Chief described them as an international group of terrorists and sympathiser united by a common ideology but composed of independent cells without any central control and command centre.

in other words any Muslim anywhere can be accused of being one man alqaeda cell.

There is a lot of truth in that. At least, any jihadist group who follows the ideology and tactics which resemble earlier actual al-qaeda attacks are often simply called 'al-qaeda' in the media. Sometimes they say stuff like 'inspired by al-qaeda'. In that sense it is a movement and not really an organization anymore. In a way these groupings are asking for it, since there are so many different groups in the Muslim world fighting for the same ideals, it is almost impossible to keep them all apart. There simply is no hierarchy or structure within the movement that encompasses all these different jihadist groups that fight the US and its allies. What makes it even harder for the Western media is that these groups don't bother too much with public relations. They hardly ever claim an attack and most of their messages are intended for Muslims. Neverthelsss, one should also not underestimate the networking within the jihadist movement, especially between veterans of the Afghanistan conflict in the 1980s.

In the end though, what does it matter if Al-Qaeda is one big group, loosely connected groups or only a 'movement' with very little interconnectedness? The end result is still that there are Muslims out there who are committed to fight a Jihad against the US and its interests and vise versa. The original author seemed to imply that 'Al Qaeda doesn't exist' would somehow mean that there is no enemy for the US, which is a falsehood IMHO.

[Muezzin]

The original author seemed to imply that 'Al Qaeda doesn't exist' would somehow mean that there is no enemy for the US, which is a falsehood IMHO.

That's not how I interpret the statement 'Al Qaeda doesn't exist'. It's foolish to say the US does not have an enemy. But it's just factually incorrect to say there is this super duper alliance of terrorists (which is how Al Qaeda is portrayed), when really, it's a bunch of loosely connected cells.

But then, I see a lot of things differently from other people. C'est la vie.

[Keltoi]

That's not how I interpret the statement 'Al Qaeda doesn't exist'. It's foolish to say the US does not have an enemy. But it's just factually incorrect to say there is this super duper alliance of terrorists (which is how Al Qaeda is portrayed), when really, it's a bunch of loosely connected cells.

But then, I see a lot of things differently from other people. C'est la vie.

The U.S. media, if they did, doesn't characterize Al-Qaeda as a "super duper alliance of terrorists". The news I watch and read constantly makes mention of the fact that Al-Qaeda has become a loosely centralized organization with many copycat groups who use the name, like a franchise. What makes the word Al-Qaeda so important to Americans is the fact that they are the group who brought down the Twin Towers and killed 3,000 people. They also, usually Zawahiri, release a fairly large amount of propoganda tapes and statements. It is true they aren't the big centralized terror group many thought they were back in 2001, but they still inspire acts of terrorism around the world, which makes the name and the group dangerous.

[KAding]

That's not how I interpret the statement 'Al Qaeda doesn't exist'. It's foolish to say the US does not have an enemy. But it's just factually incorrect to say there is this super duper alliance of terrorists (which is how Al Qaeda is portrayed), when really, it's a bunch of loosely connected cells.

But then, I see a lot of things differently from other people. C'est la vie.

Well, actually, thinking about it a bit more: an informal 'alliance' is exactly what best describes al-qaeda IMHO. Not an organization, that implies structure, which it hasn't anymore. Nor are these groupings operating completely separated from eachother. They often have contact with each other; they follow the same ideology; they are largely fighting the same war. I think they believe it is their duty to come to the help of their fellow Muslims in the fight against a hostile kafir. So an informal alliance, in defense of the Ummah. But than again, what do I know ;).

Wikipedia knows it all though! And behold, it agrees with me!

Al-Qaeda or Al-Qaida or Al-Qa'ida (Arabic: القاعدة al-qāʕida, trans. 'the base') is the name given to an international alliance of militant Islamist organizations established in 1988 by Osama bin Laden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qaeda

[Muezzin]

The U.S. media, if they did, doesn't characterize Al-Qaeda as a "super duper alliance of terrorists". The news I watch and read constantly makes mention of the fact that Al-Qaeda has become a loosely centralized organization with many copycat groups who use the name, like a franchise. What makes the word Al-Qaeda so important to Americans is the fact that they are the group who brought down the Twin Towers and killed 3,000 people. They also, usually Zawahiri, release a fairly large amount of propoganda tapes and statements. It is true they aren't the big centralized terror group many thought they were back in 2001, but they still inspire acts of terrorism around the world, which makes the name and the group dangerous.

I agree, you're right.

'Portrayed' was the wrong word. It's less the way they are portrayed than the way they are understood by the layman.

[NoName55]

people make things up as they go/as and when needed

last time I used or heard the word franchise it meant in context of a central controller/owner

like Mcdonald burgerking, every frachisee is answerable to the head honcho.

osama was never more than a front man for powers that be.

[Keltoi]

people make things up as they go/as and when needed

last time I used or heard the word franchise it meant in context of a central controller/owner

like Mcdonald burgerking, every frachisee is answerable to the head honcho.

osama was never more than a front man for powers that be.

A "front man" meaning what?

[anis_z24]

AA

You know the problem is that
some Muslims actually believe this.

they even become supporting something thats not there, but
makes so much trouble.
makes me mad.

WA

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Everything what you hear on MM about AQ is coming from US government.

AQ and 9/11 is neocons dream come true.

Remember the AQ base, under a mountain, super hideout of bad guys...?

perfect enemy.

[Keltoi]

Everything what you hear on MM about AQ is coming from US government.

AQ and 9/11 is neocons dream come true.

Remember the AQ base, under a mountain, super hideout of bad guys...?

perfect enemy.

Meaning what exactly? Oh yeah, a conspiracy.

[Khan-Ghalgha]

LOL, I meant exactly that, you obviously don't remember how some government officials were describing a hide out of AQ infamous Tora-Bora.

It was hilarious, even John Stewart made fun of it.

[Hashim_507]

So does that mean it does not exist? That the organizations (in the UK, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, etc) that aligned themselves openly with Bin Laden and Zawahiri are:
1. Not part of "al-qaeda", but separate jihadist groups
2. Do not exist at all and did not commit any attacks

Does Al-Qaeda being a 'boogeyman' mean that there are no Muslim groups that are commiting terrorist attacks against Western interest? Or that they simply have nothing to do with al-qaeda? Could you clear that up a bit. Thanks :).

This is a pchylogical war thats going; the identity is very hidden. Its about bush's interest not "American interest" i qouted. Its about brainwashing society from truth. I am strongly against al qaeda killing innocent people if they exist.Creating al qaeda means to have enemy around for every war and conflict that will get resources for a nation. Creating al qaeda is intellegent ideas to start never ending wars or conflicts. Creating al qaeda means to turn away from the truth and the boogeyman will go after western society. Also to conquer middle east for resources and power.

[KAding]

Everything what you hear on MM about AQ is coming from US government.

That does not make sense. Surely there are plenty of experts, institutes and scholars who investigate 'AQ' and who draw on a wide range of sources for their research? Heck, we know plenty of Al Qaeda based on its declaration of Jihad in the nineties and the frequent messages from OBL and Al-Zawahiri.

What exactly about the general portrayal of AQ in the media do you disagree with? Lets take the BBC as an example, its about as much 'MM' as possible:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1670089.stm

...
Unlike the tightly-knit groups of the past, such as the Red Brigades in Italy or the Abu Nidal group in the Middle East, al-Qaeda is loosely knit. It operates across continents as a chain of interlocking networks.

Individual groups or cells appear to have a high degree of autonomy, raising their own money, often through petty crime, and making contact with other groups only when necessary.

Defining al-Qaeda?

This loose connection between groups has raised a question of definition. When we talk about al-Qaeda do we refer to an actual organisation or are we now talking about something closer to an idea?

Attacks like the May 2003 bombings in Riyadh and the attack on Israeli tourists in Mombasa in 2002 are widely attributed to al-Qaeda. But were these attacks in any way planned or financed or organised by Bin Laden or the organisation he is still believed to lead?

Some analysts have suggested that the word al-Qaeda is now used to refer to a variety of groups connected by little more than shared aims, ideals and methods.

We do however know that several radical groups are or have been formally affiliated with al-Qaeda. The most important is the radical wing of the Egyptian group Islamic Jihad whose members took refuge in Afghanistan and merged with al-Qaeda.

What do you disagree with in this 'MM' definition? How would you define Al-Qaeda yourself? And based on what sources?

[KAding]

This is a pchylogical war thats going; the identity is very hidden. Its about bush's interest not "American interest" i qouted. Its about brainwashing society from truth. I am strongly against al qaeda killing innocent people if they exist.Creating al qaeda means to have enemy around for every war and conflict that will get resources for a nation. Creating al qaeda is intellegent ideas to start never ending wars or conflicts. Creating al qaeda means to turn away from the truth and the boogeyman will go after western society. Also to conquer middle east for resources and power.

I still don't understand you fully. Does this mean al qaeda does not exist at all? That OBL did not declare war on the US? That all that was fabricated? Or are you merely saying that it does exist but it is simply not as powerful as the US claims? If so, could you explain how you view al qaeda than. What did it do and what didn't it do, ie. which of the claims are fabrications?

[Keltoi]

LOL, I meant exactly that, you obviously don't remember how some government officials were describing a hide out of AQ infamous Tora-Bora.

It was hilarious, even John Stewart made fun of it.

"Even John Stewart made fun of it"......meaning John Stewart doesn't usually make fun of things? Do you actually believe John Stewart is a serious journalist or anchor? There is a reason he is on the Comedy Channel.

[wilberhum]

I always beleived the whole al qaedah thing to be a propaganda just to degrade the muslims.
There is no such thing as al qaeda or usama bin laden it's just another movie
just like any other american movie.

Where did the representatives from basically every country in the world gather to develop this propaganda? :rollseyes

How did they keep it a secret? :?

Or maybe there is a reasonable explanation? :skeleton:
But they you would have to face an unpleasant reality. :thumbs_up

[Muezzin]

This thread has lasted for 3 days. I say 'lasted' but it's actually just turned into discussion of conspiracy theories rather than the documentary in the first post.

The new rules for this section say after 3 days a thread is subject to closure; the old rules say conspiracy theories are not allowed.

Therefore, I'm closing this thread.