Gunman kills 30 at US university

[Muezzin]

Press Association
Monday April 16, 2007 8:03 PM

A gunman opened fire in a dormitory and classroom at a US university on Monday, killing at least 30 people.

The rampage at Virginia Tech University was the deadliest in US history, government officials said. The gunman was killed, bringing the death toll in Blacksburg, Virginia, to 31.

It is unclear if the gunman was shot by police or took his own life.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The name of the gunman was not immediately released, and investigators offered no motive for the attack. It was not clear if the gunman was a student.

The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus, with witnesses reporting students jumping out classroom windows to escape the gunfire. Students and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive. Police with flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed the campus.

The bloodbath took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7.15am (1215 GMT) at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dormitory when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.

After the first shots were fired, students were warned to stay indoors and away from the windows. But some students said they thought the precautions had been lifted by the time the second burst of gunfire was heard, and some bitterly questioned why the gunman was able to strike a second time, two hours after the bloodshed began.

Some of the dead were students. One student was killed in a dorm and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum said.

© Copyright Press Association Ltd 2007, All Rights Reserved

Source

[rebelishaulman]

Very sad.

[Muezzin]

In life, why does it always take only one nutter to completely ruin it for everyone?

It must be very difficult for the victims' families and friends. I hope they find the strength to cope with this tragedy.

[MTAFFI]

I saw this earlier, what a tragedy, you have to wonder What made this guy wake up this morning and decide today was the day he was going to kill 31 people, I wonder if these people were pre-picked or just killed at random. Crazy world

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[FBI]

Very Sad, Stupid terrorist.

[Ghira]

A student went on a shooting rampage and killing 32 classmates in one day.
Read full story. My best friend was at this campus..Alhumdulilah he is okay ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

[Keltoi]

This has replaced Columbine as the worst school shooting in American history. A sad day indeed.

[The_Prince]

crazy stuff, very bad university security as well as this lasted for 2 hours unlike other shootings which occured and ended in like 20 mins. this guy was walking the campus shooting ppl for 2 hours.

[England]

Do you not think it's time for the US to outlaw firearms?

[The_Prince]

Do you not think it's time for the US to outlaw firearms?

yup. but it will be useless, by the time they outlaw it guns will still be all over the place, its abit too late for that.

[England]

yup. but it will be useless, by the time they outlaw it guns will still be all over the place, its abit too late for that.

You can't just sit back and say "oh well." You have to at least try. They're debating this on Sky News. This type of incident has happened far too often...

[The_Prince]

guns seem to be appearin everywhere now, in london nearly everyweek someone is shot in south london, even in DUBAI there was an armed robbery yesterday on a jewelry store, over 50 million dhs (uae currency) worth of jewelry was stolen at gun point

[Keltoi]

Well, I take my gun rights very seriously. I own a fairly large arsenal. I wouldn't be against stronger gun laws though.

[Nyomi]

Oh no, thats awful, so sad :(

[England]

Apparently there are about 19 in a critical condition so the death toll could rise.

[KAding]

Do you not think it's time for the US to outlaw firearms?

No, I don't think it'll help much. It's more about culture than gun ownership.

Besides, despite these tragic school shootings we should also keep in mind that the murder rate has more than halved in the US in the last 15 years or so. Thats despite the increase in the number of firearms in circulation.

[Redeemed]

In 1962 prayer and Bibles were banned from the schools even the 10 commandments were taken out. I quess they were afraid the children might actually obey thou shalt not kill. Go figure, and they wonder why these shooting are taking place.

[Hashim_507]

Do you not think it's time for the US to outlaw firearms?

This is very sad news to hear really. I believe its time to outlaw the firearms; this event is excellent evidance. Fireams around is extremely hazardous and very dangerous.

[Redeemed]

This is very sad news to hear really. I believe its time to outlaw the firearms; this event is excellent evidance. Fireams around is extremely hazardous and very dangerous.

I don't think that. I think they should let prayer and the 10 commandments back in the schools

[Allah-creation]

Well, Allah Will Deal With Him In The Day Of Judgement And Obiously His Going To Hell.

[Keltoi]

Get ready for copycats too.

[Chiteng]

Supposedly there was a woman involved.
But it is all rumour.

I had freinds on that campus. I cant reach them because the phone lines are all jammed.

No solid information about anything.

[Muezzin]

Get ready for copycats too.

Copycats? You're probably right. I hope it doesn't bear too much resemblance to that series of school shootings a few months ago.

What the heck is going on down there?

[siFilam]

I don't think that. I think they should let prayer and the 10 commandments back in the schools

I'm all for it if at the same time Muslims get their prayer time along with a Islamic class.

-SI-

[enaya]

just gets to show the great american dream/way they go on about, i was very sad to hear this on the news when i switched on but i guess guns rule america even the president is funded by the gun companies

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:

just gets to show the great american dream/way they go on about

sis this isn't only a "American problem" since there are lunatics in every society. nothing to do with the American dream. this guy had issues and he decided to take it out on other people.

wasalam
-SI-

[Chiteng]

I think that one thing this points out is that the 'student visa' program
must be cancelled.

Too many foreign nationals, and no one is checking them.

Some guy in Chapel Hill, NC, tried to run over students in the
Duke commons, with a van.

These incidents will not stop, if security isnt tightened.
Get these people out of the country.

[MTAFFI]

I think this is a very tragic event, however I do not believe that the right to bear arms should be revoked. I own quite a few weapons myself and I have never harmed anyone with any of them. I also have a concealed weapons license and I carry two pistols on me at all times, neither of which have ever had to be drawn. The problem is not the right to bear arms, when you own a weapon legally you understand this as you have to go through a lot of classes and education to own such weapons. The problem here is you have a foreign student who illegally obtained a gun and killed these people. The problem is not the right to bear arms the problem is criminals who deal arms illegally. The DEA, ATF and the FBI need to crack down on gun runners and illegal arms so that these things dont happen. The sad fact is though it is hard to track these types of illegal arms. :unhappy:

[Cognescenti]

Very Sad, Stupid terrorist.

Can't really call him a terrorist as he had no clear political aim or motivation. Can't really call him an American either, because he wasn't.
Most likely he had an undiagnosed and untreated mental illness and was socially isolated.


Perhaps you can make the argument that he was influenced by American culture
and he very likely didn't bring the guns into the country, which means he bought them here. Very bad. Everyone who witnessed that, the surviviors and the families who lost someone on that campus will be scarred in some fashion.

[Chiteng]

However, if he had not had, a student visa, these people would still be alive.

That, no one can refute.

The student visa program, is the problem.

Get rid of it.

[ABWAN]

Every year thousands of the brightest students from different parts of the world come to usa to study. This is perhaps the only known incident of an international student committing crime. And one thing you missed out is that he was a permanent resident, so he was not even an international student, so to speak. Not every student gets to become a permanent resident while studying. I find your logic very naive and absurd. With the amount of high school dropouts among american citizens, if we kick out all the mexicans who do most of the low paid jobs that americans wouldnt want to do, and the internationals who do all the hi-tech jobs, I wonder how America would survive!!!

Also if I may add, some of the schools survive on international students

[Cognescenti]

just gets to show the great american dream/way they go on about, i was very sad to hear this on the news when i switched on but i guess guns rule america even the president is funded by the gun companies

The first part of your post is highly offensive (and stupifyingly ignorant). It displays an Anti-Americanism so ingrained and reflexive that you cannot even bring yourself to check your tongue with civilized decorum out of respect for 32 innocent victims. You appear to be dancing over the bodies of the innocents.

The second part is just stupifyingly ignorant, like a schoolyard taunt which can be ignored by the adults.

Overall; however, I found your input quite constructive. We Americans thank you for your advice. Maybe we could post a story about a big traffic accident or sports team being hit by lightning and you could offer your opinions on that?

[Cognescenti]

Every year thousands of the brightest students from different parts of the world come to usa to study. This is perhaps the only known incident of an international student committing crime. And one thing you missed out is that he was a permanent resident, so he was not even an international student, so to speak. Not every student gets to become a permanent resident while studying. I find your logic very naive and absurd. With the amount of high school dropouts among american citizens, if we kick out all the mexicans who do most of the low paid jobs that americans wouldnt want to do, and the internationals who do all the hi-tech jobs, I wonder how America would survive!!!

Also if I may add, some of the schools survive on international students

:rollseyes

This is perhaps the only known incident of an international student committing crime

Oh is it? From NPR...dated TODAY


Chapel Hill Graduate Faces Attempted Murder Charges

... by Rusty Jacobs

All Things Considered, March 7, 2006 · A University of North Carolina graduate is charged with attempted murder after driving an SUV into nine students in front of the university student center over the weekend. Mohammed Reza Teheri-azar says he did it because he is angry at the U.S. government for what it has done to Muslims. Rusty Jacobs of North Carolina Public Radio reports.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5250120


With the amount of high school dropouts among american citizens, if we kick out all the mexicans who do most of the low paid jobs that americans wouldnt want to do, and the internationals who do all the hi-tech jobs, I wonder how America would survive!!!


:rollseyes Guy..you do realize most of the high school dropouts in LA, for eg, ARE Mexican-American. Most of the low wage jobs in agriculture, for eg., are taken by those who dropped out of elementary school. (BTW .."Mexican" should be capitalized out of respect)

And the "internationals" do ALL the hi-tech jobs? Do you think that might be a little over the top?

NOTE: I am not saying international students should be banned. I do not agree with Chiteng on that. (With the possible exception of Chinese students in science and engineering fields)

[Chiteng]

Every year thousands of the brightest students from different parts of the world come to usa to study. This is perhaps the only known incident of an international student committing crime. And one thing you missed out is that he was a permanent resident, so he was not even an international student, so to speak. Not every student gets to become a permanent resident while studying. I find your logic very naive and absurd. With the amount of high school dropouts among american citizens, if we kick out all the mexicans who do most of the low paid jobs that americans wouldnt want to do, and the internationals who do all the hi-tech jobs, I wonder how America would survive!!!

Also if I may add, some of the schools survive on international students

I did not invite them, I owe them nothing.
I am not interested in your opinion of actual US citizens.
If the Universities need foreign students to survive, they dont deserve
to survive.

The rest of your post is pro-uncontrolled immigrant nonsence.

If this man, did not have a student visa, these people would still be alive.

Get rid of the program.

[Chiteng]

And one thing you missed out is that he was a permanent resident, so he was not even an international student, so to speak. Not every student gets to become a permanent resident while studying.

That is another flaw in the program. They should NOT, be granted such status. They should be allowed in ONLY, with the understanding that they
will eventually LEAVE.

It should not be used as a mechanism to evade normal immigration.

['Abd al-Baari]

:sl:

Heard about this at school today, very sad indeed :( :cry:

[barney]

Another senseless slaughter. :(

I listened to BBC radio 4 where one of the speakers equated the targeting of innocents and then suicide of the perpertrator with Suicide Bombing. Interesting perspective.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sad tragedy! God rest their souls! - To think these people have their lives ahead of them. God knows best. :(

[FBI]

That is another flaw in the program. They should NOT, be granted such status. They should be allowed in ONLY, with the understanding that they
will eventually LEAVE.

It should not be used as a mechanism to evade normal immigration.

Your just a bigot, The guy clearly had issues, I don't see what immigration has anything to do with it, I doubt you'd take the same stance towards columbine ect.

[Chiteng]

Your just a bigot, The guy clearly had issues, I don't see what immigration has anything to do with it, I doubt you'd take the same stance towards columbine ect.

Every person that posts on any board is a bigot.
Why not look up what the word means?

Columbine was a high school.

[FBI]

Every person that posts on any board is a bigot.
Why not look up what the word means?

Columbine was a high school.

speak for your self pal, It kind of shows a person's character when they just jump on the immigration bandwagon when any incident involving a person of colour occurs, what difference does columbine being a high school make people still died or is it since they where white Americans you won't apply the same conclusion?

[MTAFFI]

speak for your self pal, It kind of shows a person's character when they just jump on the immigration bandwagon when any incident involving a person of colour occurs, what difference does columbine being a high school make people still died or is it since they where white Americans you won't apply the same conclusion?

I think I can understand what Chiteng is saying, and I dont believe it is bigotry. I agree with him in that the student visa program is a joke and should be revoked because of obvious security reasons. However in this case the guy has been living in the US since the early 90's, so you cant really blame it on that, but you can blame it on slack immigration laws. I dont think anyone should just be allowed to live in the US, I think that there should be a very strict and intrusive procedure before anyone is allowed into any country. This unfortunately, will never happen so it is pointless to even discuss.

As far as the comment above about the US high school drop outs, I laugh in your face about this as it truly shows your ignorance. (ABWAN) The majority of high school drop outs are minorities if you take the time to look, and also take a look at our great nation, there isnt another in the world, right now, that is as powerful as the US and since our countries economy, government and technological and medicinal advances are not controlled or run by foreigners (the majority at least) then I would say our school systems are doing something right. Also I would like to point out the absolutely enormous number of smaller businesses in the US that lead our people to be the richest in the world, why arent other countries like this, what must their education be like that they have to send their kids here for college. Lets see your country pull 300,000,000 through quality education and see how well they do, the odds are against you with a number like that. I know it is off subject but I felt the need to stand up for the youth in my country.

[FBI]

^

That's rich since the Americas founding fathers were immigrants

[Goku]

What a senseless act of slaughter on people who had their whole lives ahead of them, how sad. :( May Allah bless those affected, Ameen.

[MTAFFI]

^

That's rich since the Americas founding fathers were immigrants

blah blah blah and so are the founding fathers of every country, I am so sick of hearing that, it is a paradox within itself. find a new line would you

[FBI]

blah blah blah and so are the founding fathers of every country, I am so sick of hearing that, it is a paradox within itself. find a new line would you

EXACTLY! but I aint the one who's got anti-immigration views am I?

[Fishman]

:sl:
The fact that this guy was a psychopath is nothing to do with his nationality. All the other school shootings involved white Americans, what makes this guy so special? Get a grip people.

Our school was once visisted by a survivor of the Rwanda genocide. She said that before the genocide, her people were called cockroaches and other things like that. Then she told us about how worried she was about how immigrants are called cockroaches by many people today. Its these anti-immigrant thoughts that fascism feeds on.
:w:

[MTAFFI]

EXACTLY! but I aint the one who's got anti-immigration views am I?

Things were a lot different when our founding fathers began working this land, people couldnt just fly in and out of the country at will. I think we know who founded this country and who makes this country run, and I think those people should have the right to decide who is allowed in and who is not. However this thread has nothing to do with this since the guy was a legal immigrant and he did not kill because of his ethnicity. He was a psychopath and he would have probably committed this disgusting act no matter where he was located and the event, to me, would have been just as tragic. I guess it hits a little harder at home when it is in your part of the country or really in your country at all.

[FBI]

:sl:

. However this thread has nothing to do with this since the guy was a legal immigrant and he did not kill because of his ethnicity. He was a psychopath and he would have probably committed this disgusting act no matter where he was located and the event, to me, would have been just as tragic. I

My point exactly, I didn't see why this issue was raised at all

[Muezzin]

So I take it all the immigration stuff is now ceasing to be discussed.

I mean, surely, everyone will just discuss the topic at hand rather than turning it into an immigration debate, which really belongs in another thread. Because, I mean, if anyone was to continue talking about something that doesn't really have much to do with the story in the first post, I guess I'd have to delete those posts.

And nobody likes it when big ugly Muzzy deletes their posts, do they?

[Talibatul Ilm]

This was a really sad event subhanAllah. the school was very unprepared for this as well. on CNN there was a palestinian [reknown for his video taken on campus] that mentioned he left the middle east escaping gun fire and death, thinking VA would be safe, only to witness a shootout at his school. subhanAllah

[afriend]

Here's a little anti terrorism the US should do in their own backyard!

:w:

[Muezzin]

Here's a little anti terrorism the US should do in their own backyard!

:w:

Wasn't terrorism. Apparently the guy had a problem with 'rich kids'. Who can blame him, but that's no excuse to go around shooting people.

But it wasn't terrorism as it wasn't politically motivated. The policing could have been better, to say the least.

Does anyone know how stringent gun laws are in the relevant state? I'm not saying ban them outright, as the right to bear arms is clearly ingrained into American culture because of the Constitution, but surely some redress is needed in the law?

[Keltoi]

Wasn't terrorism. Apparently the guy had a problem with 'rich kids'. Who can blame him, but that's no excuse to go around shooting people.

But it wasn't terrorism as it wasn't politically motivated. The policing could have been better, to say the least.

Does anyone know how stringent gun laws are in the relevant state? I'm not saying ban them outright, as the right to bear arms is clearly ingrained into American culture because of the Constitution, but surely some redress is needed in the law?

Unless one is convicted of a felony they can purchase a firearm. The waiting period doesn't really help if the person intends to use the firearm to kill people. School shootings are more shocking because they involve children in supposedly safe places, but overall gun violence in the U.S. has decreased.

[Redeemed]

I'm all for it if at the same time Muslims get their prayer time along with a Islamic class.

-SI-

I am all for that as long as they are presented with an opportunity to discriminate between an Islamic and Christian class.

[snakelegs]

No, I don't think it'll help much. It's more about culture than gun ownership.

Besides, despite these tragic school shootings we should also keep in mind that the murder rate has more than halved in the US in the last 15 years or so. Thats despite the increase in the number of firearms in circulation.

i agree.

[Keltoi]

At the University of Oklahoma, the campus was on lockdown for awhile because of a guy with an umbrella...just shows the kind of impact these incident have.

[Redeemed]

:sl:
The fact that this guy was a psychopath is nothing to do with his nationality. All the other school shootings involved white Americans, what makes this guy so special? Get a grip people.

Our school was once visisted by a survivor of the Rwanda genocide. She said that before the genocide, her people were called cockroaches and other things like that. Then she told us about how worried she was about how immigrants are called cockroaches by many people today. Its these anti-immigrant thoughts that fascism feeds on.
:w:

I like the name Fishman I wish I had thought of it. Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you a fisher of men."

[Chiteng]

speak for your self pal, It kind of shows a person's character when they just jump on the immigration bandwagon when any incident involving a person of colour occurs, what difference does columbine being a high school make people still died or is it since they where white Americans you won't apply the same conclusion?

big·ot (bĭg'ət) Pronunciation Key
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


I am speaking for myself, and I think you can get first in line.

And it matters not at all to me what color someone is. If they dont belong
here, they DONT belong here.

[nurul3eyn]

sad story subhanallah

there is a brother who has been confirmed dead.
http://www.islamicaweb.com/forums/ne...-62257/11.html
inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi rajioon
May Allah forgive his sins and have mercy on his soul

May Allah give sabr to his family and to all those whose loved ones died in this tragedy
:sl:

[AvarAllahNoor]

Tighter gun control required?? No. If a persons is gaga he'll kill regardless.

[MTAFFI]

Tighter gun control required?? No. If a persons is gaga he'll kill regardless.

I agree

[Muezzin]

Just deleted a bunch of posts about Iraq, since that subject has nothing to do with this thread. If members wish to 'compare and contrast', they can do so in a brand spanking new thread of their own creation.

[guyabano]

Do you not think it's time for the US to outlaw firearms?

The weapon lobby is too much powerful in USA, also, among the weapon owners and carriers are many influent people.
Even though, it is nearby only in USA, where such things happen, but still they will never change something on these laws.

[tomtomsmom]

I am deeply disturbed by this thread. To all of the families that had their children killed in this tradgedy, my heart goes out to them. May they all find peace.

I am not going to call anyone out specifically so this is a general statement that you can all take for what it is. I am a citizen of the United States of America and I am proud of that fact. Though our policies may not be to your liking (or mine for that matter) that does not make us as a whole evil or deserving of such horrible deaths. I am very hurt at many of the posts in this thread. To all of you that gave your prayers for these young lives that were cut short I thank you. But to those who want to turn this into a political debate of how bad the USA is and how all of the poor muslims in the world should be front page everyday in our country, shame on you. We are all people. And we all deserve a certain amount of respect. It saddens me that there are many people on this board that are so blinded by generations of hate that they can't see the forest through the trees. Yes there are people dying everywhere in the world everyday. That is something that people should be aware of. The troops should be pulled out of Iraq and the Palestinians should get theor country back. But that does not change the fact that my nation is in mourning over such a huge injustice that has been done on land that is supposed to be for learning and bettering ones self. They students were supposed to be safe. No, they may not have been muslim. They very well may have been drunk drug addicts that were having sex in the middle of class. But who are any of you to say that they are sub-human to the muslims of the world?? They are all going to hell say you. But none of you trully know who is going to hell and who gets a ticket to heaven. So here is an idea, get off your high horse and simply say "What a tradgedy. May God have mercy on their souls. My prayers are with their families." Is that so hard to do???


RANT OVER



PS: If I have offened you by this post then maybe you needed to be offended. I have been considering converting to Islam for some time now. It is threads like this that make me NOT want to be associated with thoughts and views of some of the muslim brothers and sisters.

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

... I have been considering converting to Islam for some time now. It is threads like this that make me NOT want to be associated with thoughts and views of some of the muslim brothers and sisters.

I did not read the whole thread ; don't know why u r so upset . Just want to tell that ur belief is releated with God Almighty ; not with other people.

U should consider reverting to Islam only when u truely believe that God is One , Islam is the Truth , Muhammed (p) is the last Prophet of God. If ALL Muslims become the most horrible people in this world , it should not stop u accepting the Truth. And if u don't believe that Islam is the right religion , does not matter how some or many or most or All Muslims are good , u must not accept Islam.

Anyway , hope u r not upset by my post ( this one or the earlier one) :)

[Redeemed]

I am deeply disturbed by this thread. To all of the families that had their children killed in this tradgedy, my heart goes out to them. May they all find peace.

I am not going to call anyone out specifically so this is a general statement that you can all take for what it is. I am a citizen of the United States of America and I am proud of that fact. Though our policies may not be to your liking (or mine for that matter) that does not make us as a whole evil or deserving of such horrible deaths. I am very hurt at many of the posts in this thread. To all of you that gave your prayers for these young lives that were cut short I thank you. But to those who want to turn this into a political debate of how bad the USA is and how all of the poor muslims in the world should be front page everyday in our country, shame on you. We are all people. And we all deserve a certain amount of respect. It saddens me that there are many people on this board that are so blinded by generations of hate that they can't see the forest through the trees. Yes there are people dying everywhere in the world everyday. That is something that people should be aware of. The troops should be pulled out of Iraq and the Palestinians should get theor country back. But that does not change the fact that my nation is in mourning over such a huge injustice that has been done on land that is supposed to be for learning and bettering ones self. They students were supposed to be safe. No, they may not have been muslim. They very well may have been drunk drug addicts that were having sex in the middle of class. But who are any of you to say that they are sub-human to the muslims of the world?? They are all going to hell say you. But none of you trully know who is going to hell and who gets a ticket to heaven. So here is an idea, get off your high horse and simply say "What a tradgedy. May God have mercy on their souls. My prayers are with their families." Is that so hard to do???


RANT OVER



PS: If I have offened you by this post then maybe you needed to be offended. I have been considering converting to Islam for some time now. It is threads like this that make me NOT want to be associated with thoughts and views of some of the muslim brothers and sisters.

For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too. Romans 14:17-18

These shootings were a terrible thing. People ask me where was God. I know that God will bring justice and get glory, but don’t forget in 1962 our country took the Bible, prayer and the 10 commandments out of the schools. In other words, they were saying that God is not allowed in here. If you take God out of our institutions the devil comes in. George Washington said, “ Don’t claim to be an American if you attempt to remove religion from our institutions.”
It would most definitely behoove you to study the Bible before you make that decision to become other religion than a follower of Christ. There are benefits from other religions, but salvation is not one of them. There is no other name given under the sun where we might be saved but Jesus. It is your choice. You have freedom to choose as you wish but you are not free from the consequences of your choices. Jesus loves you and wants to be Lord of your life. He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him." Rev. 3:20

[Umar001]

My two cents, here in the Uk we are not allowed guns, yet this does not stop people from carrying and using them, if someone is determined they can get a gun pretty easy.

The crucial difference is that here in the Uk we don't have people, well not as many, who are that determined to go school and kill everyone. That's something which is not really found here. Minds are changing though, people are more and more liking the idea of settling business yourself and that the police dont help with nothing. That's why there have been more shootings and so forth, in my view it's clear, its the attitudes not the availability of guns which is the problem.

PS: If I have offened you by this post then maybe you needed to be offended. I have been considering converting to Islam for some time now. It is threads like this that make me NOT want to be associated with thoughts and views of some of the muslim brothers and sisters.

In honesty, whether all muslims turn sour or sweet shouldnt make a differences to anything about reversion, thats if it has.

[England]

I think it's just a matter of time before it happens here. Britain is a mini-America. Whatever happens in America happens here in Britain. It was only America that had the gangs at one time and here it was unheard of. Now we have them. Obesity was a problem in America, now it's getting bad here, but thankfully something's being done about it. When the US was attacked on 9/11 we felt the effects here. When the US has hurricanes a couple of weeks or even days later we get tornadoes here.

We are a mini-America and whatever happens there happens here soon after.

Why? I don't know.

[Muezzin]

I think it's just a matter of time before it happens here.

It already did, in Dublane. :(

Britain is a mini-America. Whatever happens in America happens here in Britain. It was only America that had the gangs at one time and here it was unheard of. Now we have them. Obesity was a problem in America, now it's getting bad here, but thankfully something's being done about it.

Interesting notions.

When the US has hurricanes a couple of weeks or even days later we get tornadoes here.

That, however, is pushing it. :p

[Woodrow]

Although it seems to be an American problem, it is not unique to America and it is not always with guns.

December 1989, Canada: Marc Lepine, 25, stormed Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique, killing 14 women. Four men and eight other women were injured before Lepine turned the gun on himself.

March 1996, Britain: A gunman burst into an elementary school in Dunblane in Scotland and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.

March 1997, Yemen: A man with an assault rifle attacked hundreds of pupils at two schools in Sanaa, killing six children and two other people. He was sentenced to death the next day.

June 2001, Japan: Mamoru Takuma, armed with a kitchen knife, entered the Ikeda Elementary School near Osaka and killed eight children. Takuma was executed in September 2004.

February 2002, Germany: In Freising, in Bavaria, a former student thrown out of trade school shot three people before killing himself. Another teacher was injured.

April 26, 2002, Germany: In Erfurt, eastern Germany, a former student opened fire at a high school in revenge for being expelled. A total of 18 people died, including the assailant.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16...eut/index.html


It is always a very sad tragedy no matter where it happens.

But, the thing to keep in mind is it is terrorism. The mentality between each one is the same as the mentality of any terrorist no matter what weapon is used or who the targets are.

This is the problem with terrorism. The person committing it believes they are justified. But what ever the reason, all that comes from it is dead innocent people. No cause is served and no progress is made.

[Cognescenti]

Although it seems to be an American problem, it is not unique to America and it is not always with guns.

It is always a very sad tragedy no matter where it happens.

But, the thing to keep in mind is it is terrorism. The mentality between each one is the same as the mentality of any terrorist no matter what weapon is used or who the targets are.

This is the problem with terrorism. The person committing it believes they are justified. But what ever the reason, all that comes from it is dead innocent people. No cause is served and no progress is made.

I don't agree this is terrorism. He had no purpose other than revenge and self-glorification. Cho was crazy. As Kurt Vonnegut might have said, he had "bad chemicals". Chemicals in his disordered brain told him to do this. He was socially isolated and ostracized because others could tell he was different. Women rejected him because he didn't know how to relate to another human being properly. In interviews with his family show he was like this since early childhood. They did not seek professional help because it was not within their cultural background to do that. Mental illness was an embarrassment to be kept quiet. This kid should never have been sent to a dormatory setting where he lost whatever limited social contact he had.

As for gun control? He had two ordinary handguns that he bought weeks ahead of time. He had no high capacity ammo clips. He had no automatic weapon or bazooka or rpg. One of his guns was even an underpowered 22 caliber.

To me, the greater question is why he did not have some type of involuntary committment earlier? He had multiple contacts with campus police because of odd behavior yet because of privacy, they could not even tell his parents.

You want to control something? Think crazy control not gun control.

[Woodrow]

To me, the greater question is why he did not have some type of involuntary committment earlier? He had multiple contacts with campus police because of odd behavior yet because of privacy, they could not even tell his parents.

You want to control something? Think crazy control not gun control.

We agree very much on this much of it. It does seem there was sufficient documentation to get an emergency involuntary commitment, but people are so scared of law suits nobody acts until after the fact.

[Cognescenti]

We agree very much on this much of it. It does seem there was sufficient documentation to get an emergency involuntary commitment, but people are so scared of law suits nobody acts until after the fact.

Agreed. Fear of lawsuits and legitmate concern about not breeching statutory protections for the mentally ill.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

Just deleted a bunch of posts about Iraq, since that subject has nothing to do with this thread. If members wish to 'compare and contrast', they can do so in a brand spanking new thread of their own creation.

ok , i started it here

America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?



http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...tml#post720858

[Umar001]

I wonder what he musta been thinking though, I mean to just take your own life, I mean not that he was right int aking anyone else's life, but ok lets say he was angry at them or whatever he'd be able to justify it to himself some how, but your own? That sounds wierd. To just say 'Am gonna end everything myself'

[Cognescenti]

:sl:




ok , i started it here

America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?



http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...tml#post720858

Where exactly do you come up with the figure of 30 x 32? You do realize that is almost 1000?

I deplore the loss of innocent lives, wherever it may be.

Also, for your information, the tenor of your question shows that you don't understand the concept of empathy. Empathy doesn't come with conditionalities.

[snakelegs]

For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too. Romans 14:17-18

These shootings were a terrible thing. People ask me where was God. I know that God will bring justice and get glory, but don’t forget in 1962 our country took the Bible, prayer and the 10 commandments out of the schools. In other words, they were saying that God is not allowed in here. If you take God out of our institutions the devil comes in. George Washington said, “ Don’t claim to be an American if you attempt to remove religion from our institutions.”
It would most definitely behoove you to study the Bible before you make that decision to become other religion than a follower of Christ. There are benefits from other religions, but salvation is not one of them. There is no other name given under the sun where we might be saved but Jesus. It is your choice. You have freedom to choose as you wish but you are not free from the consequences of your choices. Jesus loves you and wants to be Lord of your life. He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him." Rev. 3:20

please don't use this tragedy as a platform from which to preach your religion. thankyou.
too many in this thread already have used it to make political statements such as yours.

[snakelegs]

I am deeply disturbed by this thread. To all of the families that had their children killed in this tradgedy, my heart goes out to them. May they all find peace.

I am not going to call anyone out specifically so this is a general statement that you can all take for what it is. I am a citizen of the United States of America and I am proud of that fact. Though our policies may not be to your liking (or mine for that matter) that does not make us as a whole evil or deserving of such horrible deaths. I am very hurt at many of the posts in this thread. To all of you that gave your prayers for these young lives that were cut short I thank you. But to those who want to turn this into a political debate of how bad the USA is and how all of the poor muslims in the world should be front page everyday in our country, shame on you. We are all people. And we all deserve a certain amount of respect. It saddens me that there are many people on this board that are so blinded by generations of hate that they can't see the forest through the trees. Yes there are people dying everywhere in the world everyday. That is something that people should be aware of. The troops should be pulled out of Iraq and the Palestinians should get theor country back. But that does not change the fact that my nation is in mourning over such a huge injustice that has been done on land that is supposed to be for learning and bettering ones self. They students were supposed to be safe. No, they may not have been muslim. They very well may have been drunk drug addicts that were having sex in the middle of class. But who are any of you to say that they are sub-human to the muslims of the world?? They are all going to hell say you. But none of you trully know who is going to hell and who gets a ticket to heaven. So here is an idea, get off your high horse and simply say "What a tradgedy. May God have mercy on their souls. My prayers are with their families." Is that so hard to do???


RANT OVER



PS: If I have offened you by this post then maybe you needed to be offended. I have been considering converting to Islam for some time now. It is threads like this that make me NOT want to be associated with thoughts and views of some of the muslim brothers and sisters.

thankyou for this very sincere and heartfelt post. i also think many of the posts were uncalled for and offensive.
why do people exploit things like this?
fortunately, you do not have to judge islam by the acts and words of its followers.

[Redeemed]

please don't use this tragedy as a platform from which to preach your religion. thankyou.
too many in this thread already have used it to make political statements such as yours.

You lost me on that one. Besides, part of that wasn't what I quoted. Or least I don't remember saying the top part.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Where exactly do you come up with the figure of 30 x 32? You do realize that is almost 1000?

--yap , that's what the author is trying to say.

Imagine if the Virginia Tech Shooting Were Thirty Times Larger


In Iraq today, 85 people were killed or found dead. The United States is more than ten times as large as Iraq.

The 85 dead among 26.7 million Iraqis is the equivalent of 955 killed in a population of 300 million Americans.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...t_b_46134.html

the tenor of your question shows that you don't understand the concept of empathy. Empathy doesn't come with conditionalities.

-- where did u find the condition ? Here is a statement & a Question : America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

[Grace Seeker]

I think that one thing this points out is that the 'student visa' program
must be cancelled.

Too many foreign nationals, and no one is checking them.

Some guy in Chapel Hill, NC, tried to run over students in the
Duke commons, with a van.

These incidents will not stop, if security isnt tightened.
Get these people out of the country.

However, if he had not had, a student visa, these people would still be alive.

That, no one can refute.

The student visa program, is the problem.

Get rid of it.

I did not invite them, I owe them nothing.
I am not interested in your opinion of actual US citizens.
If the Universities need foreign students to survive, they dont deserve
to survive.

The rest of your post is pro-uncontrolled immigrant nonsence.

If this man, did not have a student visa, these people would still be alive.

Get rid of the program.

That is another flaw in the program. They should NOT, be granted such status. They should be allowed in ONLY, with the understanding that they
will eventually LEAVE.

It should not be used as a mechanism to evade normal immigration.

There is so much that you obviously have missed. Now, part of this is because you posted in response to news that came out the first day. That should be the first lesson, get the facts before commenting. The news suspected an international student. Cho does was not an international student. He was a permament immigrant to this country who arrived here with his parents who legally immigrated when Cho was 9 years of age. He then grew up here. Whether or not he was treated well by others has come into question. So, how we respond to immigrants among us might be a pertinent thing to consider.

Your concerns with the international student and VISA programs are duly noted, but don't apply in this instance.

As to too many foreign nationals and no one check them out, or the view that many people are here uninvited. Well, that use to be true. Most Americans are descendants of people who came here uninvited. Certainly Pocohauntus and Squanto should have done a better job of checking out the foreign nationals they helped. But that is now ancient history. International students are actually sought after and definietly invited. Having hosted some, I can tell you that there definitely are checks made on them today. School administrators are accountable to the department of Homeland Security for keeping tabs on whether a person here on a student VISA is actually enrolled in and attending school. Schools that fail to do this can lose the privilege of accepting international students.

Universities don't need foreign students to survive. They recruit them because they bring the presence of different cultures to their campuses, and that experience is something most universities desire for their American students to experience as they are being educated to live in a global society not just for a particular degree. To fail to understand this is to fail to understand the purpose of higher education in this country.

Persons here on a Visa, all types of Visas are, just as you said it should be, allowed here only for a specified period of time. That specificiation varies wtih the purpose of the Visa. In general, if one seeks to apply for residency status or often even a change in visa status, it requires the individual to return to their country of origin in order to file for a change in status. So, all those things which you wish for are already in place in the program, it cannot be used as a means to avoid normal immigration accept by those who elect to remain illegally. That same problem could occur with any form of admission to the USA from student visa, to worker visa, to tourist or even diplomatic visa. Of these, the student visa is the most secure because it has the most follow-up built into the program.

If we want to eliminate the Cho's of this world, what we need to do is eliminate hate, start to accept outsiders, and provide better care for the mentally ill. His immigrant status is irrelevant to what happened.

[Keltoi]

I agree with Grace Seeker, Cho's immigrant status has nothing to do with this discussion. The truth is that Cho was as American as apple pie. He was mentally ill and obviously disturbed. That doesn't excuse his deeds obviously, but events like this can usually be stopped if proper action is taken by health professionals, teachers, and family.

[Chiteng]

There is so much that you obviously have missed. Now, part of this is because you posted in response to news that came out the first day. That should be the first lesson, get the facts before commenting. The news suspected an international student. Cho does was not an international student. He was a permament immigrant to this country who arrived here with his parents who legally immigrated when Cho was 9 years of age. He then grew up here. Whether or not he was treated well by others has come into question. So, how we respond to immigrants among us might be a pertinent thing to consider.

Your concerns with the international student and VISA programs are duly noted, but don't apply in this instance.

As to too many foreign nationals and no one check them out, or the view that many people are here uninvited. Well, that use to be true. Most Americans are descendants of people who came here uninvited. Certainly Pocohauntus and Squanto should have done a better job of checking out the foreign nationals they helped. But that is now ancient history. International students are actually sought after and definietly invited. Having hosted some, I can tell you that there definitely are checks made on them today. School administrators are accountable to the department of Homeland Security for keeping tabs on whether a person here on a student VISA is actually enrolled in and attending school. Schools that fail to do this can lose the privilege of accepting international students.

Universities don't need foreign students to survive. They recruit them because they bring the presence of different cultures to their campuses, and that experience is something most universities desire for their American students to experience as they are being educated to live in a global society not just for a particular degree. To fail to understand this is to fail to understand the purpose of higher education in this country.

Persons here on a Visa, all types of Visas are, just as you said it should be, allowed here only for a specified period of time. That specificiation varies wtih the purpose of the Visa. In general, if one seeks to apply for residency status or often even a change in visa status, it requires the individual to return to their country of origin in order to file for a change in status. So, all those things which you wish for are already in place in the program, it cannot be used as a means to avoid normal immigration accept by those who elect to remain illegally. That same problem could occur with any form of admission to the USA from student visa, to worker visa, to tourist or even diplomatic visa. Of these, the student visa is the most secure because it has the most follow-up built into the program.

If we want to eliminate the Cho's of this world, what we need to do is eliminate hate, start to accept outsiders, and provide better care for the mentally ill. His immigrant status is irrelevant to what happened.

If you confine the arugument to Cho, then you are correct.
The information released the first day was flawed.
However,
What type of visa was being used by 20+ people on 9/11?

There are flaws within the program. It should be eliminated.

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

I guess it is easy to suggest that 'other' people be tolerant.

The truth is that the student Visa program is used to bypass national
immigrant quotas. The 'students' come here with no intent to ever leave.
It is a polite myth. The home countries of these people will never benefit
from the educations.
I dont wish to irritate the forum mods so I will stop posting now.

[Agnostic]

The truth is that Cho was as American as apple pie. He was mentally ill and obviously disturbed.

LOL :giggling:
Sorry Keltoi I know it was out of context but it made me laugh.

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

a person openly denouncing Islam in downtown Tehran or any other Islamic cities would receive the same response as someone denouncing Democracy, liberty and freedom in the streets of America.
What is the difference between a American defending Democracy and a Muslim defending their religion?

-SI-

[Chiteng]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful



a person openly denouncing Islam in downtown Tehran or any other Islamic cities would receive the same response as someone denouncing Democracy, liberty and freedom in the streets of America.
What is the difference between a American defending Democracy and a Muslim defending their religion?

-SI-

In the United States, if I had a permit, I could stand on the street corner
all day, denouncing, democracy, liberty and freedom.
NOTHING would happen to me, and in fact the police would protect me
if needed.

Somehow I suspect that denouncing Islam publicly, violates the Sharia.
And I would quite likely die quickly.

[Keltoi]

LOL :giggling:
Sorry Keltoi I know it was out of context but it made me laugh.

lol...should have worded that better.

[siFilam]

In the United States, if I had a permit, I could stand on the street corner
all day, denouncing, democracy, liberty and freedom.
NOTHING would happen to me, and in fact the police would protect me
if needed.

Somehow I suspect that denouncing Islam publicly, violates the Sharia.
And I would quite likely die quickly.

I doubt you would be able to get such a permit.

-SI-

[Chiteng]

I doubt you would be able to get such a permit.

-SI-

And you would be wrong. All you need to do is file the application
at the courthouse.

example:

Nazis marching thru Jewish neighborhoods.
People burning flags
Anti-abortion Activists picketing hospitals

I do think you must pay a fee however.

The point being that you dont get stoned to death for it.

[Grace Seeker]

If you confine the arugument to Cho, then you are correct.
The information released the first day was flawed.
However,
What type of visa was being used by 20+ people on 9/11?

There are flaws within the program. It should be eliminated.

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does. Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws. Indeed, this is what has happened. Saddly we should have recognized and addressed some of these issues before 9/11, but we didn't. Since that time, nearly all of the concerns you have stated have been addressed. The program is no longer as flawed as you make it out to be.

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

I guess it is easy to suggest that 'other' people be tolerant.

Well, as I happen to have friends who live in Tehran (both Muslim and non-Muslim) I can answer this question with some degree of knowledge.

No, you cannot denounce Islam and you cannot proseltyze in the street in Tehran. They have a system of government that does not include some of the items that are granted to people in the US Constitution. But you can wear a Christian T-shirt on the street, carry and read from a Bible in public, and you can hold Bible studies in private homes with friends.

As for what you can do in the USA, what happens when Fred Phelps attends the graveside service of a soldier and spouts his hate filled messages? What happens when a person tries to burn a US Flag on the local county courthouse? Aren't there always people there who try to stop them. Those activities are not against the law, but doing them puts you at risk of injury from others in society. So, it seems like the level of intolerance is about equal worldwide.

As for your reply to the previous poster that all you would have to do is get a permit, that is true. It is not true that it would be granted. I lived near Skokie (a predominately Jewish community outside Chicago), when the Nazis desired to get a permit to parade though Skokie that request was denied. Eventually the ACLU stepped in and got them a permit elsewhere in Chicago. And you are again right, the police turned out to protect. Why? Because, the citizenry wanted to attack them; so the police were there to keep the peace.

The truth is that the student Visa program is used to bypass national
immigrant quotas. The 'students' come here with no intent to ever leave.
It is a polite myth. The home countries of these people will never benefit
from the educations.

To say "the students", as if it applies to all students, just is not true. Having hosted many exchange students over the years I know personally of both the desire of some of these students to stay and of others who desire to return to their home countries. My "son" from Chile lived with us in 2001 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He spent his year here and then returned to Chile. Last semester he was back in the USA to work on his masters. But again, just for that one semester. After spending time with us at Christmas, he flew home where he will complete his degree in the fall. Presently he is working on internships for his future employment in Chile.

I could repeat that story for you literally thousands of times recounting the stories and the goals and aspirations of student after student. Simply put, you are wrong. They really are students. Some come and find that they have opportunities here they never imagined before and of course want to stay and take advantage of them. And those that do, add to our country's strength. Some come and accomplish that which they came here for and return to continue to pursuing their dreams in their homelands. There is not one monolithic community which can be identified by the phrase "the students".

I have family from not only the USA, but also Chile, China, Thailand, Turkey, and Vietnam. It is only my son from Vietnam who desires to live here. And he does so because he was brought to this country as a refugee, by our own government, when still a child. This is where home is for him, he has lived here (as a citizen) for longer than he ever lived in Vietnam.

I dont wish to irritate the forum mods so I will stop posting now.

I think you should stop posting simply because you don't know whereof you speak.

[Chiteng]

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does. Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws. Indeed, this is what has happened. Saddly we should have recognized and addressed some of these issues before 9/11, but we didn't. Since that time, nearly all of the concerns you have stated have been addressed. The program is no longer as flawed as you make it out to be.




Well, as I happen to have friends who live in Tehran (both Muslim and non-Muslim) I can answer this question with some degree of knowledge.

No, you cannot denounce Islam and you cannot proseltyze in the street in Tehran. They have a system of government that does not include some of the items that are granted to people in the US Constitution. But you can wear a Christian T-shirt on the street, carry and read from a Bible in public, and you can hold Bible studies in private homes with friends.

As for what you can do in the USA, what happens when Fred Phelps attends the graveside service of a soldier and spouts his hate filled messages? What happens when a person tries to burn a US Flag on the local county courthouse? Aren't there always people there who try to stop them. Those activities are not against the law, but doing them puts you at risk of injury from others in society. So, it seems like the level of intolerance is about equal worldwide.

As for your reply to the previous poster that all you would have to do is get a permit, that is true. It is not true that it would be granted. I lived near Skokie (a predominately Jewish community outside Chicago), when the Nazis desired to get a permit to parade though Skokie that request was denied. Eventually the ACLU stepped in and got them a permit elsewhere in Chicago. And you are again right, the police turned out to protect. Why? Because, the citizenry wanted to attack them; so the police were there to keep the peace.






To say "the students", as if it applies to all students, just is not true. Having hosted many exchange students over the years I know personally of both the desire of some of these students to stay and of others who desire to return to their home countries. My "son" from Chile lived with us in 2001 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He spent his year here and then returned to Chile. Last semester he was back in the USA to work on his masters. But again, just for that one semester. After spending time with us at Christmas, he flew home where he will complete his degree in the fall. Presently he is working on internships for his future employment in Chile.

I could repeat that story for you literally thousands of times recounting the stories and the goals and aspirations of student after student. Simply put, you are wrong. They really are students. Some come and find that they have opportunities here they never imagined before and of course want to stay and take advantage of them. And those that do, add to our country's strength. Some come and accomplish that which they came here for and return to continue to pursuing their dreams in their homelands. There is not one monolithic community which can be identified by the phrase "the students".

I have family from not only the USA, but also Chile, China, Thailand, Turkey, and Vietnam. It is only my son from Vietnam who desires to live here. And he does so because he was brought to this country as a refugee, by our own government, when still a child. This is where home is for him, he has lived here (as a citizen) for longer than he ever lived in Vietnam.



I think you should stop posting simply because you don't know whereof you speak.

I know quite a bit more than you accept that I do.

For example:

Students that claim a wide variety of different types of persecutions
within their home country. In order to NOT be required to return to said
contry. A classic example is the Ba Hai religion and Iran.

I have personally know in excess of twentyfive such students that were
primarily concerned with qualifying for different types of visa, rather than
returning to their home country.

I can give the campus involved as well.

I asked them at length, and they responded unabashed, 'If you cant hold on to it, move over'

Also you suggestion that since 9/11 the student visa program has been
magicly repaired is simply silly.

Yes I am sure there are student that actually intend to return to the homeland. And they are outnumbered.

None of which matters. They should not have an option to do anything else.
AND Btw, it is my right as a citizen, to have that opinion.

[Grace Seeker]

Fine. You can have whatever opinion you want. And I'll gladly continue to engage in this discussion with you if you want. But, let's take it to another thread. I don't think we are on topic with the issues here anymore.

[Redeemed]

And you would be wrong. All you need to do is file the application
at the courthouse.

example:

Nazis marching thru Jewish neighborhoods.
People burning flags
Anti-abortion Activists picketing hospitals

I do think you must pay a fee however.

The point being that you dont get stoned to death for it.

I agree

[Cognescenti]

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does.

:thumbs_up

Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws.

Nah...I like the first idea better.

[Muezzin]

Someone somewhere along the line derailed this thread into thinly veiled Islam bashing/quasi-xenophobia. Hmm.

Please stay on topic everyone. Kudos to those who recognised what the subject of this thread is (and more importantly, what it isn't).

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam, I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

---is it a good taste to go to a counrty as a tourist & then start donounceing their religion openly ?

Are u sure , if i get US visa , Americans will greet me if i start bashing Jesus (p) openly after reaching there? If i go to any Jewish prayer place & say nasty things about Moses (p) , Jews will welcome me ?


In Thailand , u r not allowed to say anything against their king & u r asking if Muslims will greet if u openly denounce Islam ? I m not sure if there is any law against it in Iran but surely public will react negatively . But why r u asking this question ?


Raising question about US foreign policy or express concern about role of media ------ these are not same as condemning Islam or any other religion in a public place. Tolerance does not mean people will be allowed to do anything they want.

pl. read my 1st post carefully---- i never said that Americans must not feel sad about VT tragedy .


P.S. oooopssss , i just noticed that i mixed up this thread with America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

[Grace Seeker]

There are so many personal stories to be told. The information posted earlier about Waleed Shaalan reminds us that while some live only for themselves, others commit selfless acts. Indeed, if anything that story was repeated numerous times in the midst of the horror of that morning. Professor Liviu Librescu having survived the Holocaust sacrificed his life that his students might escape our a window. Other students took the risk to barricade doors as Cho tried to force his way in saving himself and all in the room. Some did these deeds even after being shot.

I found out the other day I have a 2nd degree connection with one of the victims. A friend of mine is pastor of the church Austin Cloyd attended. Two years ago went on a mission trip with her church's youth group to help repair homes of those who had no means to do so for themselves. The trip was to Appalachia, the part of the country Blacksburg, VA is located in. She was so moved and changed by the experience that upon her return home to Illinois, she made a life commitment to serve people there. Her father was so impressed by the change he saw in his daughter's life, that he actually changed jobs, taking a cut in pay to move to Blacksburg where he got a job at Virginiah Tech so that Austin could continue the ministry she found herself drawn to helping people in Appalachia.

Each one of the people had a story. We sometimes talk about it being a shame that there lives were cut so tragically short. And it is a tragedy. But let us not sell them short either. The more I read about the individuals and see them as persons not numbers that add up to 32, the more I recognize that each was already living a full and productive life. It would also be a tragedy to not acknowledge the contributions they had each already made.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Press Association
Monday April 16, 2007 8:03 PM

A gunman opened fire in a dormitory and classroom at a US university on Monday, killing at least 30 people.

The rampage at Virginia Tech University was the deadliest in US history, government officials said. The gunman was killed, bringing the death toll in Blacksburg, Virginia, to 31.

© Copyright Press Association Ltd 2007, All Rights Reserved

Source

The dude was emotionally and spiritually under-nourished, all the makings for typical case of possession. (eg: the one who actully committed the crimes was already dead):

You decided to spill my blood...

There's a lot of this sort of thing going on as of late. I know. I know. I'll shut up now.

Ninth Scribe

[Redeemed]

I can't help but notice that people keep their way of life undisclosed. From that I can tell they are not Muslims, but if they are Christians, I would find it disappointing that they would deep it undisclosed. It makes me think what is it they are trying to hide. Jesus said, if you are ashamed of me in this sinfull and adultress generation so will I be ashamed of you when I come in the glory of my Father with the holy angels.

[Chiteng]

I can't help but notice that people keep their way of life undisclosed. From that I can tell they are not Muslims, but if they are Christians, I would find it disappointing that they would deep it undisclosed. It makes me think what is it they are trying to hide. Jesus said, if you are ashamed of me in this sinfull and adultress generation so will I be ashamed of you when I come in the glory of my Father with the holy angels.

The problem is:

For a great many people, the word 'christian' assumes a whole set of presumed beliefs and attitudes. None of which may actually be true.

So you can avoid having to deal with such mindless bias, by simply
not answering that question.

Then again:

"way of life" does NOT equal the religion.
In fact in most people I know, they dont allow religion to dominate ANY
portion of their lives.

To allow religion to dominate someones life, is ALIEN to them.

[Muezzin]

This thread has been open for a week. Within that week, everybody seems to have contributed everything they could to the discussion. Now it has veered off on a tangent. Therefore, I am closing this thread.