Hostage-Taking - Is this Terrorism or a Legitimate Operation?

[Chechnya]

After months of having thousands of women and children being killed , tortured and raped - a group of fighters storm a hospital , take over a thousand hostages and threaten to blow it up if the war isnt stopped.

They get what they want from the hostage-taking which is a ceasefire and use it as a platform to end the brutal war a few months later.

Is the hostage-taking an act of terrorism??? Or a legitimate operation to end the murder of their people?

Keeping in mind that before the hostage-taking tens of thousands of women and children had been killed and raped - the hostage-taking stopped this mass-murder.

Before the hostage-taking a brutal war against a whole nation was happening - the hostage-taking stopped this too.

What do you think?

(I am referring to this one particular hostage-taking incident in the Russian town of Buddenyvosk)

[wilberhum]

the hostage-taking is an act of terrorism

Wrong does not justify wrong. The end does not justify the means.
Most, if not all the hostages had nothing to do with the problem.
Collectave punishment is wrong.

[Keltoi]

Absolutely, it is terrorism. People become desperate, they lose perspective, they hate, but that doesn't make what they do right or moral.

[جوري]

I think anyone that willingly, consciously and freely enlists with the army to go impinge on the rights of other people under any banner deserve whatever in hell they have coming to them.... Insha'Allah rabena yizedhoum khosara fi'almwal wal'anfous..... Don't send your boys over there if you want them to keep their head.

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[Chechnya]

Wrong does not justify wrong. The end does not justify the means.
Most, if not all the hostages had nothing to do with the problem.
Collectave punishment is wrong.

Absolutely, it is terrorism. People become desperate, they lose perspective, they hate, but that doesn't make what they do right or moral

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

[wilberhum]

I think anyone that willingly, consciously and freely enlists with the army to go impinge on the rights of other people under any banner deserve whatever in hell they have coming to them.... Insha'Allah rabena yizedhoum khosara fi'almwal wal'anfous..... Don't send your boys over there if you want them to keep their head.

I don't see how this relates to the question. :?

[wilberhum]

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

No I think every Chechen should be killed. That will solve the problem. :raging:

Da, You think killing inocent people will solve the problem. :skeleton:

[Keltoi]

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

Do you seriously believe kidnapping people is going to save the Chechen people? No, it will only bring more violence and death to them.

[Chechnya]

No I think every Chechen should be killed. That will solve the problem.

You may be trying to be silly but to many Russians that comment wouldnt raise an eyebrow - theyve tried it before - are you part Russian?.

Da, You think killing inocent people will solve the problem.

Chechens didnt blow up the hostages in Buddenyvosk so there was no killing of innocent people but there was tens of thousands of dead innocents in Chechnya which is why this hostage-taking was so crucial.

[Chechnya]

Do you seriously believe kidnapping people is going to save the Chechen people? No, it will only bring more violence and death to them.

Well you didnt answer my question - as for hostage-taking, it has saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Chechen and eventually led them to freedom.

I would have thought you would support that

[جوري]

I think the chechens should do whatever it takes to liberate themselves... All is fair in Love and war!.... there is no love lost there though........

[afriend]

:sl:

It's very disturbing as to how commonly the term 'terrorism' is used these days...Soon you'll have cats chasing mice an act of 'terrorism' too.

:w:

[جوري]

:sl:

It's very disturbing as to how commonly the term 'terrorism' is used these days...Soon you'll have cats chasing mice an act of 'terrorsm' too.

:w:

Only if a Muslim is doing it.....The rest are freedom fighters and lovers of democracy!:raging: :enough!:

[wilberhum]

Good old “Tribal Thinking”.
Since a member of your tribe harmed a member of my tribe, every member of my tribe can harm any member of your tribe.

Chechnya, I know you justify killing innocent people, you have been doing that since you started the forum, but Purest Ambrosia, I’m disappointed at your approval of violence toward innocent people.

[Chechnya]

Chechnya, I know you justify killing innocent people, you have been doing that since you started the forum, but Purest Ambrosia, I’m disappointed at your approval of violence toward innocent people.

Do I?

What are you basing that on?

And btw apart from showing a little sacrasm, you have avoided answering my question/

Ill ask it again:

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

[جوري]

I love justice.. and I didn't see it served -- I did however see a genocide of Chechnyans which was readily swept under the rug as usual..

eh they are only Muslims.. their blood is free for all!

The only people you truly have to fear are the ones who have lost everything...

[wilberhum]

Do I?

What are you basing that on?

And btw apart from showing a little sacrasm, you have avoided answering my question/

Ill ask it again:

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

If I remember right, you started out praising a “School Children Killer”.

When I say I do not supporting hostage-taking, I mean I do not support hostage-taking.

But since you support hostage-taking, I would assume that you would find it ok to rape, torture and murder hostages whose only crime is being Russian.

[wilberhum]

I love justice.. and I didn't see it served -- I did however see a genocide of Chechnyans which was readily swept under the rug as usual..

eh they are only Muslims.. their blood is free for all!

The only people you truly have to fear are the ones who have lost everything...

I too love justice.. and I didn't see it served. But I don't think you get justice by killing people whose only crime is being Russian.

[Muezzin]

The first post is based on hindsight. For one thing, just because it worked before, doesn't necessarily mean it would work again. I mean, a certain country dropped nuclear bombs on a certain other country to help end a certain war, but that does not mean that tactic would necessarily work today.

My own personal view on war is that it is ugly by nature and should be avoided at all costs, but if it is inevitable, civilians must not deliberately or recklessly be made to suffer.

[noodles]

Forgive me for sounding so mean, but how does that make sense?

You are saying that if a person came into your house, raped your mother, daughters and killed them later on, will you not go mad?

Infact, you'd be on the verge of suicide.

I support justice.

A crime is a crime. Whether you commit it here in canada, or you commit it in US or whether you commit it in russia, it is still a crime. (I do not mean all those sissy laws that the government issues to keep a leash on people)

Hostage crises is a direct cause of what happened to these people's pasts.

Do I blame them? ( I dont want to answer that)
You think on it yourself

[Muezzin]

Taking innocent people hostage is also a crime.

Freedom fighters attacking military targets in a war is not a crime. Well, it probably would be against the law of that country, but it's not morally reprehensible to fight a tyrant.

And I can understand why people do what they do, but understanding is not always approval.

[Chechnya]

f I remember right, you started out praising a “School Children Killer”.

No , i have never praised the Russians who - as many Beslan mothers themselves say -were the ones that killed the people

Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev for his 15 year military career against Russian forces and for leading the Chechen people to freedom and for defeating the genocidal Russian army in Chechnya

No, i dont agree with he did in Beslan and i have said that many times here

So your statement was incorrect and i am now tempted to call you a liar.

When I say I do not supporting hostage-taking, I mean I do not support hostage-taking.

So you think the Chechen people should have continued to be massacred and raped - yes?

I think your true colours are finally coming out...

But since you support hostage-taking, I would assume that you would find it ok to rape, torture and murder hostages whose only crime is being Russian.

Your assumption is incorrect - i dont think people raped or murder for being Russian

I do think the Russian people should take more responisibility over what the people they voted into power do in Chechnya and the North Caucaus

[wilberhum]

You are saying that if a person came into your house, raped your mother, daughters and killed them later on, will you not go mad?

No he is justifying making hostages of people that had nothing to do with raping your mother.
IE Collective Punishment.
You are Russian, therefore you are guilty and deserve punishment.

[جوري]

Hostage taking is usually about negotiations, and exchange not about raping women.. the only women thus far who have been raped and murdered were the chechnyans, or other Muslim women else where, Iraq, Palestine, not the Russians, not the Americans not the British!...

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter... I don't understand the mentality, that some are superior to others, their feelings and families some how account for more?... I just saw a news brief about that British woman that was taken hostage in Iran, as she reunited wither her daughter... Quite a moving human story... But it isn't human one it comes to one poor Iraqi woman who lost three of her sons one of them tied to an American tank, they sped by her, her son skinned before her very eyes, that it should even merit a mention-- G-D forbid this should echo any sort of sentiment. And your SOB of a president just with his same song and dance --911, terrorists, 911, terrorists... it is almost like a daily prayer, that he and his fellow Masonic Zionists orchestrated to puppeteer the rest of you! Wake up Americans!

[Muezzin]

No he is justifying making hostages of people that had nothing to do with raping your mother.
IE Collective Punishment.
You are Russian, therefore you are guilty and deserve punishment.

Exactly.

It's like, if a black guy attacked a white guy for no reason, I could understand why the white guy might suddenly become a racist serial killer - but it doesn't make his actions right, and he'd still belong behind bars.

[Chechnya]

Freedom fighters attacking military targets in a war is not a crime. Well, it probably would be against the law of that country, but it's not morally reprehensible to fight a tyrant.

The freedom fighters who took these people hostage had fought military targets for a long time - so thats not an accusation that can be levelled against them - and they even offered on many occasions to observe international law - so as to stop the murder and rape of their people through more "civlised" means.

When this didnt work, they tried a more brutal method and that did work and they became heroes

[wilberhum]

I think your true colours are finally coming out...

Only in your mind. Everyone else knows you are just twisting words.

Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev

As I said you praise a "School Children Killer". I think that shows your true colours and I don't even have to twist your words.

i dont think people raped or murder for being Russian

But it is ok to take them hostage.
You have made your point.

I will no longer participate in your justification of hate and terrorism.
But if you don't learn to control your hate, it will control you.

[Chechnya]

As I said you praise a "School Children Killer". I think that shows your true colours and I don't even have to twist your words.

I see you didnt quote my full quote - esp the bit where i mentioned specifically what he had done for Chechnya - nor the bit where i said i have never agreed with what he did in Beslan - and YOU accuse ME of twisting words looool :D :D

You would do Fox news proud :thumbs_up

Only in your mind. Everyone else knows you are just twisting words.

Your words spoke for themselves and people reading this thread will see themselves what you have said or what you have left unsaid...

But it is ok to take them hostage.
You have made your point.

I will no longer participate in your justification of hate and terrorism.
But if you don't learn to control your hate, it will control you.

Running away from questions you find difficult isnt the answer - i asked a simple question and from your answers i have percieved how low you hold the life and honour of our brothers and sisters in Chechnya

Throwing around words like "hate and "terrorism" in order to extract yourself from talking about this is a bit childish - but each to his own, i suppose.

[England]

Exactly.

It's like, if a black guy attacked a white guy for no reason, I could understand why the white guy might suddenly become a racist serial killer - but it doesn't make his actions right, and he'd still belong behind bars.

OR

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack :)

[Muezzin]

OR

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack :)

Yes, and I criticise that, too.

[Chechen]

The hostage-takers issued an ultimatum threatening to kill the hostages unless their demands, including an end to the Chechen war and beginning of direct negotiations with Chechen rebel leadership, were met. Russian President Boris Yeltsin immediately vowed to do everything possible to free the hostages, denouncing the attack as "unprecedented in cynicism and cruelty."

On June 15, Basayev demanded that journalists be let into the hospital building to conduct a press conference, but when Basayev found the Russian authorities to be too slow in granting his request, he ordered six hostages killed (three helicopter pilots, two police officers and an official of military registration and enlistment office). Only after this journalists were passed into the hospital. Fearing for their lives, the hospital staff helped other policemen and pilots disguise themselves in civilian clothes and to appear committed to the hospital by changing the hospital records.

Chechen commanders enforced firm discipline among their men and reported to hostages that they will strictly punish subordinates for the least attempt at any violence. A member of Chechen force who was found to be threatening the hostages while under influence of narcotics was immediately shot. The Russians attempted various tactics to break the standoff, from threatening to execute 2,000 Chechen civilians to using Basayev's brother to talk him out of it.
After several days of siege, the Russian MVD and FSB OSNAZ special forces tried to storm the hospital compound at dawn on the fourth day, meeting fierce resistance. A woman connected to artificial respiration apparatus died during the assault when the electricity to the hospital was disconnected. After many hours of fighting wherein more than 30 hostages were killed, unable to avoid the grenades the Russians were throwing in through the shot-out windows, a ceasefire was agreed on and 227 hostages were released.

A second Russian attempt to take control of the hospital few hours later also failed, resulting in more casualties. Russian authorities accused the Chechens of using the hostages as human shields
On June 18, negotiations between Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin and Shamil Basayev led to a compromise which became a turning point for the First Chechen War. In exchange for the hostages, the Russian government agreed to temporarily halt military actions in Chechnya and begin a series of negotiations.

The just-released hostages were especially angered by Boris Yeltsin's order to use force against the terrorists. Yeltsin meanwhile had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the summit of the Group of Seven was being held. After meeting with Yeltsin, the seven condemned violence on both sides of the Chechen conflict.

On June 19, most of the hostages were released, and Basayev's group, under cover of 120 volunteer hostages (including 16 journalists and 9 State Duma deputies), departed for, and uneventfully reached, the Chechen village of Zandak near Chechnya's border with Dagestan. After these hostages were released, Basayev, accompanied by some of the journalists, moved to village of Dargo, where he was welcomed as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonn...hostage_crisis

It was done for a good cause and if Budyonnovsk didn't happen thousands more of Chechen civilians would have died. And notice how the Russians storm the building, kill a bunch of people and then accuse the Chechens like always, and the worst part is that everyone believes them and nobody will listen to the Chechens when they say that they're not the ones to be blamed because people rather hear what they want to believe and refuse to to even open their eyes and see the truth because they think Chechens and all muslims are terrorists and it just has to stay that way.

[Cognescenti]

The hostage-takers issued an ultimatum threatening to kill the hostages unless their demands, including an end to the Chechen war and beginning of direct negotiations with Chechen rebel leadership, were met. Russian President Boris Yeltsin immediately vowed to do everything possible to free the hostages, denouncing the attack as "unprecedented in cynicism and cruelty."

On June 15, Basayev demanded that journalists be let into the hospital building to conduct a press conference, but when Basayev found the Russian authorities to be too slow in granting his request, he ordered six hostages killed (three helicopter pilots, two police officers and an official of military registration and enlistment office). Only after this journalists were passed into the hospital. Fearing for their lives, the hospital staff helped other policemen and pilots disguise themselves in civilian clothes and to appear committed to the hospital by changing the hospital records.

Chechen commanders enforced firm discipline among their men and reported to hostages that they will strictly punish subordinates for the least attempt at any violence. A member of Chechen force who was found to be threatening the hostages while under influence of narcotics was immediately shot. The Russians attempted various tactics to break the standoff, from threatening to execute 2,000 Chechen civilians to using Basayev's brother to talk him out of it.
After several days of siege, the Russian MVD and FSB OSNAZ special forces tried to storm the hospital compound at dawn on the fourth day, meeting fierce resistance. A woman connected to artificial respiration apparatus died during the assault when the electricity to the hospital was disconnected. After many hours of fighting wherein more than 30 hostages were killed, unable to avoid the grenades the Russians were throwing in through the shot-out windows, a ceasefire was agreed on and 227 hostages were released.

A second Russian attempt to take control of the hospital few hours later also failed, resulting in more casualties. Russian authorities accused the Chechens of using the hostages as human shields
On June 18, negotiations between Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin and Shamil Basayev led to a compromise which became a turning point for the First Chechen War. In exchange for the hostages, the Russian government agreed to temporarily halt military actions in Chechnya and begin a series of negotiations.

The just-released hostages were especially angered by Boris Yeltsin's order to use force against the terrorists. Yeltsin meanwhile had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the summit of the Group of Seven was being held. After meeting with Yeltsin, the seven condemned violence on both sides of the Chechen conflict.

On June 19, most of the hostages were released, and Basayev's group, under cover of 120 volunteer hostages (including 16 journalists and 9 State Duma deputies), departed for, and uneventfully reached, the Chechen village of Zandak near Chechnya's border with Dagestan. After these hostages were released, Basayev, accompanied by some of the journalists, moved to village of Dargo, where he was welcomed as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonn...hostage_crisis

It was done for a good cause and if Budyonnovsk didn't happen thousands more of Chechen civilians would have died. And notice how the Russians storm the building, kill a bunch of people and then accuse the Chechens like always, and the worst part is that everyone believes them and nobody will listen to the Chechens when they say that they're not the ones to be blamed because people rather hear what they want to believe and refuse to to even open their eyes and see the truth because they think Chechens and all muslims are terrorists and it just has to stay that way.

Wait a minute. are you seriously claiming that the Russians are responsible for the loss of life among hostages because they tried to rescue them (however inept the attempt)? That is preposterous.

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.


Would you support the SS killing French villagers because of the actions of the resistence?

[Chechen]

Wait a minute. are you seriously claiming that the Russians are responsible for the loss of life among hostages because they tried to rescue them (however inept the attempt)? That is preposterous.

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.


Would you support the SS killing French villagers because of the actions of the resistence?

LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.

[MTAFFI]

LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.

To me civilians should be at the very most a casualty of war. Casualty meaning, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and accidently being killed. I respect the Chechens, I think they have a valid right to their war with Russia and I support them in their fight for their land. However, by killing innocent people it furthers their cause none and makes them look no better than those they are fighting and the ideology they are fighting against. The second they took these hostages was a mistake, taking hostages and using them for ransom of any kind is criminal, and it definitely served in the interest of their enemy by presenting themselves as people who do not care for human life, murderers.

Now as far as hostage taking goes in war, I believe it is OK. I believe if a soldiers is captured, he can and should be used as collateral or to obtain an objective. Killing a captive on the other hand is senseless, and makes the captors look like the bad guys. Take Nick Berg for example, a civilian taken hostage and gruesomely beheaded. How is that an act of war? What does that show to the world? That you can kill someone without conscience, to me it gave insight to just exactly why we are in Iraq, not a reason to leave. Hostages are perfectly OK in war as long as they are taken and used in the proper manner, the minute civilians are involved or killing takes place it is no longer a hostage situation. Hostages are not taken to be killed, otherwise why not just kill them on the battlefield?

[Chechen]

To me civilians should be at the very most a casualty of war. Casualty meaning, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and accidently being killed. I respect the Chechens, I think they have a valid right to their war with Russia and I support them in their fight for their land. However, by killing innocent people it furthers their cause none and makes them look no better than those they are fighting and the ideology they are fighting against. The second they took these hostages was a mistake, taking hostages and using them for ransom of any kind is criminal, and it definitely served in the interest of their enemy by presenting themselves as people who do not care for human life, murderers.

Now as far as hostage taking goes in war, I believe it is OK. I believe if a soldiers is captured, he can and should be used as collateral or to obtain an objective. Killing a captive on the other hand is senseless, and makes the captors look like the bad guys. Take Nick Berg for example, a civilian taken hostage and gruesomely beheaded. How is that an act of war? What does that show to the world? That you can kill someone without conscience, to me it gave insight to just exactly why we are in Iraq, not a reason to leave. Hostages are perfectly OK in war as long as they are taken and used in the proper manner, the minute civilians are involved or killing takes place it is no longer a hostage situation. Hostages are not taken to be killed, otherwise why not just kill them on the battlefield?

I understand what you say and it seems correct to me. I never said I support hostage taking of civilians or anything I just said that in this particular situation the Chechens had no other choice. I understand if the Chechens took those people hostage and asked for money as ransom or something but that's not what they asked for, they just asked for the genocide to be stopped. They didn't do it for themselves they did it to save their countrymen and they've saved thousands of lives by doing that. I agree that from one side it's just wrong but if you look on the other hand they saved a lot of women and children by doing what they did. I mean we could sit here and keep saying yeah this and that but you have to realise that they didn't do it because they wanted to, I'm sure they didn't take pleasure in doing that but they saved thousands of human lives.

[Cognescenti]

LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.

Your hatred of the Russians has caused you to suspend all moral reasoning (if you ever possessed it). I can't believe you can dispense with the slaughter of 300 children willfully terrorized for hours and hours as "funny". You are seriously messed up, dude.

You aren't going to see me supporting Russian behavior but, really what do you expect me to do about it? What do you expect the US to do about it? The US defeated the Soviet Union which was the greatest historical tormenter of Muslim poeples of the 20th Century. A lot of bloody thanks we got for it too. The US protected the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo. Do you want us to invade Russian now? Where was the rest of the Muslim world when Stalin was murdering and deporting whole Muslim populations? Fight your own war and quit whining. Don't ask me to support the murder of 300 helpless children because you are all hyped up from propaganda videos.

BTW....can the racism charge bud.

[Chechen]

Your hatred of the Russians has caused you to suspend all moral reasoning (if you ever possessed it). I can't believe you can dispense with the slaughter of 300 children willfully terrorized for hours and hours as "funny". You are seriously messed up, dude.

You aren't going to see me supporting Russian behavior but, really what do you expect me to do about it? What do you expect the US to do about it? The US defeated the Soviet Union which was the greatest historical tormenter of Muslim poeples of the 20th Century. A lot of bloody thanks we got for it too. The US protected the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo. Do you want us to invade Russian now? Where was the rest of the Muslim world when Stalin was murdering and deporting whole Muslim populations? Fight your own war and quit whining. Don't ask me to support the murder of 300 helpless children because you are all hyped up from propaganda videos.

BTW....can the racism charge bud.

...When did I say the death of 300 children is funny? I feel sorry that those children got killed by their own people with no mercy. And when did I say I expect America to help us? I don't want America to come to Chechnya and then install their own puppet regime. I just want America and Europe to stop helping Russia in their genocide against the Chechen people. I think it's the muslim ummah that should be helping us.

[Cognescenti]

...When did I say the death of 300 children is funny? I feel sorry that those children got killed by their own people with no mercy. And when did I say I expect America to help us? I don't want America to come to Chechnya and then install their own puppet regime. I just want America and Europe to stop helping Russia in their genocide against the Chechen people. I think it's the muslim ummah that should be helping us.

Exactly how is the US supporting Russian actions in Chechnya?

[Chechen]

Exactly how is the US supporting Russian actions in Chechnya?

Well military aid for example. Like president Dudayev's death happened because of the Americans, they gave the Russians his location by using their satellites and the Russians threw a bomb on him and killed him. The Americans helped the Russians kill the leader of the Chechen people when they had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[snakelegs]

After months of having thousands of women and children being killed , tortured and raped - a group of fighters storm a hospital , take over a thousand hostages and threaten to blow it up if the war isnt stopped.

They get what they want from the hostage-taking which is a ceasefire and use it as a platform to end the brutal war a few months later.

Is the hostage-taking an act of terrorism??? Or a legitimate operation to end the murder of their people?

Keeping in mind that before the hostage-taking tens of thousands of women and children had been killed and raped - the hostage-taking stopped this mass-murder.

Before the hostage-taking a brutal war against a whole nation was happening - the hostage-taking stopped this too.

What do you think?

(I am referring to this one particular hostage-taking incident in the Russian town of Buddenyvosk)

your question makes sense in an abstract, theoretical sense - relating to this specific case - the result in innocent lives saved was a positive one.
what would your question have been if it had not worked, and instead the russians murdered even more chechens?
would you then condemn hostage taking? there was no guarantee that it would result in an overall saving of life.
i think it is wrong when innocent people are killed or terrorized - i don't care if it's done by governments or resistance fighters.
this case was apparently an unusual instance of violence (the taking of hostages, even if they were not harmed, is an act of violence) achieved a positive result.

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

this is one of those "either/or" questions that to my mind, are invalid.
do you really believe that hostage taking in general, is an effective method for bringing an end to violence? i don't think the record shows that at all.

[wilberhum]

I just saw thin on another thread and thought it was applicable to the situration.

“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”
(Quran 6:164)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

Isn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?
I would think sol

[Chechen]

I just saw thin on another thread and thought it was applicable to the situration.

Isn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?
I would think sol

What does this have to do with hostage taking? Hostages aren't been being punished for anything.. They're just being used to scare a certain person.

[wilberhum]

Hostages aren't been being punished for anything..

Hardly an accurate statement. Having your freedom taken away, having your life threatened, is not punishment?
Oh well!

[SATalha]

I am not a supporter of hosstage takings. In battle or war the only thing you should be doing is fighting the enemy who bears arms!

no way should civilians and childrens be harmed!

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

The humen mind is a fragile thing, it can break so easily and this will lead people to do extreme things that is wrong. But they feel that it is justice although we may not. Hope you understand what i am trying to say.

[wilberhum]

I am not a supporter of hosstage takings. In battle or war the only thing you should be doing is fighting the enemy who bears arms!

no way should civilians and childrens be harmed!

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

The humen mind is a fragile thing, it can break so easily and this will lead people to do extreme things that is wrong. But they feel that it is justice although we may not. Hope you understand what i am trying to say.

Well said. Chechnya has suffered more than most countries. I hope peace will come there way, but terrorism it not the right road.

[SATalha]

Well said. Chechnya has suffered more than most countries. I hope peace will come there way, but terrorism it not the right road.

I honestly think that the Islamic Militants that are in that region take part in warefare with the army and also pro-russian chechens. From what i have read most if not all of the fighting take place against the Russian army and also the pr-russian chechen militants.

[wilberhum]

I honestly think that the Islamic Militants that are in that region take part in warefare with the army and also pro-russian chechens. From what i have read most if not all of the fighting take place against the Russian army and also the pr-russian chechen militants.

I think that is a reasonably honest assement. But "most" it the key word and "if not all" obviously is not accurate.

[SATalha]

Yeah you are right, but one thing that i do know is that the Amirs (leaders) know that killing civilians and terrorsim is wrong. Its the ones below with not much Islamic knowledge that use certain parts of the Quran and Adith out of context for their own means. But they dont realise that it goes against their own beliefs. I cant stress how important it is for Muslims not to harm other people lives (expect in war with the enemy)it makes me cring when i see these kind of things.

[wilberhum]

SATalha,
You talk a lot of good sence. That is a nice change for this thread. :thumbs_up

[Chechnya]

our question makes sense in an abstract, theoretical sense - relating to this specific case - the result in innocent lives saved was a positive one.
what would your question have been if it had not worked, and instead the russians murdered even more chechens?
would you then condemn hostage taking? there was no guarantee that it would result in an overall saving of life.

no, there was no guarantee but as it happened they achieved what they set out to achieve - they save hundreds of thousands of lives, they started the beginning of the end - a praiseworthy deed, im sure you'd agree..

sn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?

you have inadvertently raised an interesting point - to what extent are the people responsible for the crimes of the people they support into power? Are they completely blameless?

I think i'll start another thread on that :thumbs_up

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

I dont know why you would want to condemn this - these men risked their lives and everything else to save their people from total destruction

I think its very easy to say " ok, people are suffering - its tragic but they shouldnt do anything "radical" to stop their own destruction - just die slowly"

no-one in the world was going to help the women and the children in chechnya who were being gang-raped, massacred, tortured - sure they had some sympathy - but what does sympathy get you?
does it stop the rape of a girl? or the destruction of a village?

even in shariah when things are at an extreme, shariah rules can be broken - basayev and his men after repeatedly offering to observe international law did things the hard way and achieved results

[Keltoi]

These sorts of debates are easy to have in the comfort of an office chair full of ideals and views on morality. While I do believe that taking non-combatants hostage for a political purpose is nothing less than terrorism, I'm a little hesitant to condemn the actions as monstrous and leave it at that. Chechnya, the poster not the country, has done a fairly good job at contrasting morality vs. reality. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but people who have faced terrors beyond description will resort to things they would never imagine doing in the past. If you look at other peoples faced with destruction, being American I think of the Native tribes, they will do unspeakable acts of violence because they feel they have nothing else to lose. It doesn't justify it, it is just the reality of the situation.

[Chechnya]

These sorts of debates are easy to have in the comfort of an office chair full of ideals and views on morality. While I do believe that taking non-combatants hostage for a political purpose is nothing less than terrorism, I'm a little hesitant to condemn the actions as monstrous and leave it at that. Chechnya, the poster not the country, has done a fairly good job at contrasting morality vs. reality. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but people who have faced terrors beyond description will resort to things they would never imagine doing in the past. If you look at other peoples faced with destruction, being American I think of the Native tribes, they will do unspeakable acts of violence because they feel they have nothing else to lose. It doesn't justify it, it is just the reality of the situation.

well said

though i may disagree with some of your points - at least you show understanding of the reality of the situation.

i think its also important to note that this was a last resort for the chechens - they tried every "peaceful" way to stop the slow genocide

they released hundreds of russian solders they had captured - shamil basayev, who was behind this hostage-taking operation, himself released over 400 russian soldiers by going out of his way to contact their mothers and telling them to collect their sons - that didnt stop the russians from mass-murdering and raping

the chechens also repeatedly offered to observe international law if russia did the same - that didnt work either as the russians just carried on with their mission

[Woodrow]

I have thought long and hard before posting here. I could not think of how to word it. It is paradoxol. I support the Chechens fully. My ancestors went through the same struggle and lost. I know recalling stories from my parents of the things desperation will drive good pious people to .

some times an act in itself may be an aberration, but there are times when there is no alternative. You can only do what can be done, it may often not seen as the best choice by others. but, unless we are there we are in no posistion to judge the morality of the act.

I read a bit more about that hostage situation. Yes, there were deaths, but all of the deaths were from the Russians "Rescuing" the hostages.

I would say that Bro.SATallah has come the closest to saying what I can not put into words.

[SATalha]

well said

though i may disagree with some of your points - at least you show understanding of the reality of the situation.

i think its also important to note that this was a last resort for the chechens - they tried every "peaceful" way to stop the slow genocide

they released hundreds of russian solders they had captured - shamil basayev, who was behind this hostage-taking operation, himself released over 400 russian soldiers by going out of his way to contact their mothers and telling them to collect their sons - that didnt stop the russians from mass-murdering and raping

the chechens also repeatedly offered to observe international law if russia did the same - that didnt work either as the russians just carried on with their mission

Salam, This is my point as well as bro woodrow has said it is a difficult issue. you know that iam for the our Chechen brothers and sisters all the way. The things that they have gone through because of the Russians is terrible and what the Russian guvernment have done to the chechen people is beyond terror. I can understand why people would resort to these mesures. Infact if i saw my family rippped to pieaces I can do pretty much anything for revenge. But will it find me peace? thats another question. Think about that. Wasalam

[Chechen]

Well this is what 400 years of terror leads to... They were extremely desperate and were ready to use any means because they knew everyone had turned their backs on them, the Chechens had no other way and they didn't want to just sit and watch how their nation is being slowly destroyed.

[Woodrow]

Well this is what 400 years of terror leads to... They were extremely desperate and were ready to use any means because they knew everyone had turned their backs on them, the Chechens had no other way and they didn't want to just sit and watch how their nation is being slowly destroyed.

Very true. Just so much abuse can be taken and then an escape from it has to be made. An abused people are very limited in what they can do to break free.

Thinking back, Colonial America was in a struggle with GB less then 300 years ago. The colonial fighters did many things that were considered horrible by the standards of the "civilized" world at that time. Yet, today they are glorified as courageous heros. I will not deny them the right of being heros as they were. But, the Chechens have been fighting for over 400 years. There have been many heros that came from the people of Chechnya but it is doubtful they will be recognized as such by the world, until after Chechnya wins it's freedom.

[MTAFFI]

What is really sad is that I fear the Chechens will never win their freedom unless someone steps in and stops Russia. Look at what they are up against, a neighboring world super power with unlimited resources and men to send in to take this land. It is almost as if the Russians are toying with them, rather then simply bombing and killing everyone and then taking the land, they send in people to rape and pillage, and kill and kill and kill. This still (I dont think) justifies killing innocent people on purpose, or taking innocent people as hostage. As someone said above, will that bring peace? I feel deeply for the Chechens, Russia has always been known to be a fairly brutal nation, to its own people and its neighbors. My prayers go out to these people

[Chechnya]

Salam, This is my point as well as bro woodrow has said it is a difficult issue. you know that iam for the our Chechen brothers and sisters all the way. The things that they have gone through because of the Russians is terrible and what the Russian guvernment have done to the chechen people is beyond terror. I can understand why people would resort to these mesures. Infact if i saw my family rippped to pieaces I can do pretty much anything for revenge. But will it find me peace? thats another question. Think about that. Wasalam

Bro this operation isnt about revenge - it never was

if they wanted revenge they would have just slaughtered everyone in the town - after the war was finished basayev offered to pay compensation to those who suffered in buddenyvosk and even apologised to them - revenge was the last thing on their mind

[Khan-Ghalgha]

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.

I guess you didn't hear about more 40.000 chechen children systematically killed over 10 years? as long as you don't hear I guess it's alright.

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack

what that could be? hmmm... *thinking*.... ..... ah right - 9/11! almost forgot, by the way not everyone believes official theory, you may cry - conspiracy as much as you want, the fact is a lot of people dont see it the same way you do, so you can stop bringing that up. Reminds me Bush, he brings it up every time he possibly can and have you noticed how his face lightens up, it's clearly his favourite subject, each time he has a tough question - he goes - but 9/11... terrorists... threat... bla bla bla... 9/11... terrorists... 9/11... terrorists.. terrorists...

[Keltoi]

what that could be? hmmm... *thinking*.... ..... ah right - 9/11! almost forgot, by the way not everyone believes official theory, you may cry - conspiracy as much as you want, the fact is a lot of people dont see it the same way you do, so you can stop bringing that up. Reminds me Bush, he brings it up every time he possibly can and have you noticed how his face lightens up, it's clearly his favourite subject, each time he has a tough question - he goes - but 9/11... terrorists... threat... bla bla bla... 9/11... terrorists... 9/11... terrorists.. terrorists...

Alot of people in the world are missing a few screws as well.

[Muezzin]

Just a reminder, this thread is about the legitimacy or non-legitimacy of hostage taking, with particular reference to Chechnya, and is not to be derailed into a discussion about 9/11.

[Chechnya]

Alot of people in the world are missing a few screws as well.

Im not a supporter of 9-11 conspiracy theories - however if we look at Russia we see that such an event wouldnt have been a first

most non-goverment analysts - russian and western- believe that it was the FSB that was behind the Russian apartment blasts in 1999 ( Russias own 9-11)

Russian FSB officers were actually caught by some local police officials planting bombs in more apartments and FSB officers who have since left the FSB have said the same - the blasts were used as a pre-text to re-invade Chechnya

Without the blasts, there was no way the Russians could whip up enough public support for another war having lost the previous one

[Keltoi]

Im not a supporter of 9-11 conspiracy theories - however if we look at Russia we see that such an event wouldnt have been a first

most non-goverment analysts - russian and western- believe that it was the FSB that was behind the Russian apartment blasts in 1999 ( Russias own 9-11)

Russian FSB officers were actually caught by some local police officials planting bombs in more apartments and FSB officers who have since left the FSB have said the same - the blasts were used as a pre-text to re-invade Chechnya

Without the blasts, there was no way the Russians could whip up enough public support for another war having lost the previous one

I don't know much about the Russian apartment bombings, but taking the current state of the Russian government into consideration, nothing would shock me.

[Muezzin]

I agree with what you're saying about the Russians trying to frame the Chechens two posts above this one, but it's not really pertaining to the topic. It would be an excellent separate thread.

[SATalha]

In my opinion Russia has done many things to justify the chechen war, they need it so that they can get public and international support. Islamic terrorism? It was non-existant, they have oil reserves in that region amongst other things.

[Pygoscelis]

Before "terrorism" loses all meaning, I think it's important to remember what it does in fact mean. Use of force against civilians to scare and terrorize them, usually for a political agenda.

Yes, any hostage taking is terrorism. So is the US shock and awe campaign.

It is also important to recognize that "Is this Terrorism" and "Is this wrong" are two separate questions.

[Chechnya]

It is also important to recognize that "Is this Terrorism" and "Is this wrong" are two separate questions.

Isnt all terrorism supposed to be wrong - at least in the west?

[barney]

Taking Innocents hostage. Check
Threatening their lives . Check
Political and Religious aims. Check

Just hit all the lights on Terrorist.

Its a no-brainer

[Keltoi]

Isnt all terrorism supposed to be wrong - at least in the west?

As a matter of principle, any intentional targeting of civilians to inspire terror is an act of terrorism and is considered a bad thing. I'm not sure what Pygo's point was, but I assume he was making a distinction between terrorism as a tactic and the morality that judges it. Not sure.

[snakelegs]

Isnt all terrorism supposed to be wrong - at least in the west?

as long as governments do it, it's not called that.

[barney]

I think you would have to have Tony Blair saying something like " OK, Go into the marketplaces and just gun anything that moves...more deaths the better"


OOhh...Wait a min...Thats the Jihadists....My bad

[Chechen]

Taking Innocents hostage. Check
Threatening their lives . Check
Political and Religious aims. Check

Just hit all the lights on Terrorist.

Its a no-brainer

No one ever threatened their lives and religion had nothing to do with it.. People seem to think that the rebels did what they did because they enjoy it. I'm sure they took no pleasure in doing what they did but they didn't have any other way, they didn't have the choice, it was either do that and stop the death of thousands of people or either not do it but have your whole nation wiped out aswell as yourself.

[Abdul Fattah]

It all depends on the situation I geuss. If it's a geurilla group abducting dhimmi's it's defenitly a sin. Obviously one can't take non-combatants as hostage either, that would be blackmail. But if it's two groups who are at war, then it's only natural for one group to take the other as hostage when they meet them. In fact taking the enemy as hostage as opposed to killing him is a sign of mercy then.

I don't know, and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best

[barney]

Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Taking Innocents hostage. Check
Threatening their lives . Check
Political and Religious aims. Check

Just hit all the lights on Terrorist.

Its a no-brainer


No one ever threatened their lives and religion had nothing to do with it.

fighters storm a hospital , take over a thousand hostages and threaten to blow it up if the war isnt stopped.

Ahh yeah, Sorry, I thought for a second blowing a hospital with 1000people in it up was dangerous. My mistake.

[جوري]

You are so full of feelings Barney!... we are humbled by your flood of emotions and concern... pls take a moment (or longer) of silence for all the victims of Virginia Tech.. and spare us your sardonic comments for a day... we are no longer in the 5th grade.. I doubt you are achieving anything with your comments... How about you run for a seat in the parliament where you can really put your two cents to work.

Peace!

[Chechen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Taking Innocents hostage. Check
Threatening their lives . Check
Political and Religious aims. Check

Just hit all the lights on Terrorist.

Its a no-brainer


No one ever threatened their lives and religion had nothing to do with it.




Ahh yeah, Sorry, I thought for a second blowing a hospital with 1000people in it up was dangerous. My mistake.

They never planned to blow up anyone they just said that to scare the Russians and force them to stop the war. If they really wanted to blow someone up they could just go in the street and do it, why take all the trouble to take over a hospital and stuff. They came to the hospital saying stop the genocide in Chechnya or we'll blow everyone up which they wouldn't do because they wouldn't have achieved anything by doing that but they had to say something to stress the Russians a little. Obviously Russians like killing women and children too much and weren't going to accept the Chechens' terms so easy so they began to storm the building during which they started to throw hand grenades into the building! Obviously that killed a lot of people in the hospital and the people were actually a lot more safer in the hospital before the Russians started their "rescue". So the Chechens aren't responsible for any of the deaths in the hospital because they're not responsible for the Russian's stupidity.

[doodlebug]

The Islamic position - does anyone know what religious leaders say on it?

If the hostage-takers were denied what they wanted and God-forbid, were 'forced' to do what they threatened, wouldn't that be haraam...seeing as you're not allowed to take the lives of innocents?

Has anyone answered this yet?

[barney]

They never planned to blow up anyone .

Then why carry explosives and weapons into the place? Did they mistake it for an arms fair where they were going to sell them on, or were they responding to a weapons amnesty and mistook the hospital for a police station.

To the Hospital Hijackers:
How about this for ending the war? Use the guns and explosives to attack military targets of the russian army. Then you can call yourself freedom fighters or rebels and nobody thinks of you as murdering terrorist pondlife.

Quick answer...because attacking people who can shoot back requires some guts, and the idea that a democracy will capitulate if it's people react in horror at the slaughter of it's innocents is one that all terrorists subscribe to.

The big problem is Russia isnt a real democracy. It's leaders dont really care about their own people. You could bomb them from january till christmas every year and it wont change a thing except make them dig their heels in further and react violently against it.

I beleive that you might try the diplomatic route (like northen Ireland did) or the Non-compliant route (like India). That works.

Or is it really that, (until 1990) the "Great Satan" was the USSR? And a dead infidel is a good infidel?

[SilentObserver]

Barney,
It is pointless to argue with the supporters of murderers in this thread. All the same arguements are presented as they were presented in support of the pigs that murdered the children of Beslan. It is best to abandon this fruitless discussion. They are irrational, and that seems unlikely to be changed.

[Chechnya]

To the Hospital Hijackers:
How about this for ending the war? Use the guns and explosives to attack military targets of the russian army. Then you can call yourself freedom fighters or rebels and nobody thinks of you as murdering terrorist pondlife.

Quick answer...because attacking people who can shoot back requires some guts, and the idea that a democracy will capitulate if it's people react in horror at the slaughter of it's innocents is one that all terrorists subscribe to.

Ah so much rubbish in the last two paragrapghs, i barely know where to start :rollseyes

Ok -"Use the guns and explosives to attack military targets of the russian army" - way ahead of you, after Buddenyvosk - the same guys used the ceasefire obtained from the hostage-taking to re-group, re-arm - and when hostilities started again - they attacked the three major cities in Chechnya, re-took them and defeated the Russians on the battlefield

So, yes military targets WERE targeted and the russian military WAS defeated and what they achieved in the hospital seige had a massive military benefit :thumbs_up


As far as the "attacking people who can shoot back requires some guts" arguement is concerned - the Russians themselves admit the guys who took the hospital were the best and most successful unit in the war and they were the ones who defeated the russains eventually

so when you defeat a former superpower in battle - like these guys did - then come back and talk about peoples "guts" lol :D

[Chechen]

Then why carry explosives and weapons into the place? Did they mistake it for an arms fair where they were going to sell them on, or were they responding to a weapons amnesty and mistook the hospital for a police station.

To the Hospital Hijackers:
How about this for ending the war? Use the guns and explosives to attack military targets of the russian army. Then you can call yourself freedom fighters or rebels and nobody thinks of you as murdering terrorist pondlife.

Quick answer...because attacking people who can shoot back requires some guts, and the idea that a democracy will capitulate if it's people react in horror at the slaughter of it's innocents is one that all terrorists subscribe to.

The big problem is Russia isnt a real democracy. It's leaders dont really care about their own people. You could bomb them from january till christmas every year and it wont change a thing except make them dig their heels in further and react violently against it.

I beleive that you might try the diplomatic route (like northen Ireland did) or the Non-compliant route (like India). That works.

Or is it really that, (until 1990) the "Great Satan" was the USSR? And a dead infidel is a good infidel?

Do you think that if they came with empty hands the Russians would feel threatened? Of course they had to bring weapons and show the Russians that they have them. And they have been attacking the Russian military for 10 years now but they're outnumbered and don't exactly have the same weapons as the Russians do. So it takes time to fight the enemy but time is something they don't have because while they're fighting, hundreds of people are getting killed everyday. They had no other choice. It was either that or just watch thousands of men, women and children being slaughtered.

[borboski]

Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?

Why on earth would that logically follow? This is simply a nonsense statement. What a ridiculous thing to say, as if that it is the only choice a person has - and as if hostage taking is the only (or even a likely) solution to the turmoil in Chechnya...!

[Chechnya]

Why on earth would that logically follow? This is simply a nonsense statement. What a ridiculous thing to say, as if that it is the only choice a person has - and as if hostage taking is the only (or even a likely) solution to the turmoil in Chechnya...!

IN this instance, these were the only options.

Before the hospital seige, the slaughter of the chechen people showed no signs of stopping - it was only when the resistance entered into Russia and literally forced Russia to negotiate that hope was bought to the chechen people - most western journalists and analysts share this view and see the hospital seige as the beginning of the end.

No hospital seige - no end of slaughter of the chechen people

[SilentObserver]

They had no other choice.

This is the making of the substance that is found to be expelled from the orifice just below the base of a bull's tail.

Taking innocent people hostage is never a justified solution. It can only be described as a lazy, cowardly way out. Any person that would employ the tactic of putting civilians in harms way to achieve a political goal, has no heart or soul, and should only be viewed with contempt.

[vpb]

wilberhum, keltoi,

maybe if someone would kill and masacree your wife and your children, you would think different :) wouldn't u?, so please don't speak of things which you have never tried. You are just people who don't know what is war, zero, nothing , you just think you know about war but u don't, cuz you have never experienced war, you've just seen couple of movies and documentaries. but as I said maybe if you would see your wife and children get masacred, I would like to see how you would behave in that case :) so don't be ignorants and making such foolish comments. you are either ignorants, or you don't have any mercy whatso ever for people's lives that are being taken everyday.

[thirdwatch512]

whoa.. this board has some real extremists doesn't it? so far, i have 21 marked down (yes, i keep tabs!)

let me just ask this..

so 9/11 happened right. it happened by OBL, a muslim.

does that give america the right to go to arabia, kill all the muslims, and all of a sudden "justice is served?"

you have to look at both sides here.

killing anyone, for any reason, is just totally wrong and immoral. there is nothing "justice" about it. and people have got to start understanding that.

[barney]

If the Russian army has deliberatly targeted civilians then they can be called terrorists.

The excuse that there is no other option, isnt a excuse. It's just murder. It's cold blooded evil murder, and the Heroic Martyers who threaten and kill women and kids dont deserve gloryfying/ supporting/ cheering/ excusing.

They need shooting. Through the head.

[vpb]

If the Russian army has deliberatly targeted civilians then they can be called terrorists.

no one is calling them terrorists, actually people are calling the chechens terrorists.

The excuse that there is no other option, isnt a excuse. It's just murder. It's cold blooded evil murder, and the Heroic Martyers who threaten and kill women and kids dont deserve gloryfying/ supporting/ cheering/ excusing.

did u read the first post, or u'r just posting without looking anywhere.
Cechens, stated that no killing was involved in the hostage-taking act.
and can you please propose the solution (an option) for the chechens? if you are saying that there is no excuse for saying 'no other option' ??

[vpb]

whoa.. this board has some real extremists doesn't it? so far, i have 21 marked down (yes, i keep tabs!)

keep counting. but I don't know who are the real extremists here, us or you. who have been giving votes to the biggest terrorist in the world who killed thousands of people.

let me just ask this..

so 9/11 happened right. it happened by OBL, a muslim.

does that give america the right to go to arabia, kill all the muslims, and all of a sudden "justice is served?"

you have to look at both sides here.

first, who said that OBL did 9/11?? we know nothing about 9/11,and who was behind it, so it's just a conspiracy theory.
so don't start drawing conclusions here.

and 9/11 is totally different issue comparing to Chechenya's issue. 9/11 is not a war, in Chechenya there is a war.
don't speak non-sense.

and it's the fact that you cannot comprehend, PEOPLE DO NOT THINK THE SAME AS YOU DO IN A STATE OF WAR, THEY DONT HAVE SAME WAY OF THINKING AS YOUR BRAIN DOES WITH YOU SITTING ON THAT CHAIR HAVE A CUP OF COFFE AND ENJOYING YOUR DAY. THEIR PHYSIC IS DIFFERENT DUE TO THE STATE OF WAR. CAN YOU COMPREHEND THIS?????

[duskiness]

What do you think?

The answer is simple.
Taking hostage is wrong. i doubt you expected any other answer.
For what ever reason you do it, it's evil.
I think (but I'm not sure...) that there are cases in life when you are facing two evils - bigger and smaller and all you probably can do is just to choose.
But when you do the "lesser evil", you should be full aware, that what you do is wrong. Period.
Without using justification. Just face it - it's wrong. And you should pay for it (confess, apologise, feel guilty, repent).
It's a bit similar to "civil disobedience" - for higher reasons you knowingly break law and you fully accept to bear all the consequences of this fact.
Taking hostage is braking the Law (in which we both believe)

[Malaikah]

whoa.. this board has some real extremists doesn't it? so far, i have 21 marked down (yes, i keep tabs!)

21? Now that's a big number. I've only counted 1 and half. :rollseyes

[vpb]

21? Now that's a big number. I've only counted 1 and half.

;D ;D;D, who's the half?

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Although I do not condone hostage taking, but, I do understand what the Chechen people have been & are going through.

1. I have read stories and I did see interviews on international news channels, where Chechens, Abkhazians and others have stated that Christians in those regions have also taken Muslim children hostage, and many times have murdered them.

It may not Just have been a military operation, but, revenge is a powerful motivator.

2. Regarding Beslan, Russian attorneys and some Parliamentarians have stated that the Russian troops are as much to blame for the childrens death as the hostage takers.

Afterall, they initiated the attacks while negotiations were being conducted. And, the initial attack was carried out with an RPG (I believe).

You don't rescue hostages with anti-tank weapons, and heavy machineguns.

You don't assault a school that has a 1,000 hostages. Some hostages will be killed.

3. All the Russians had to do in order to defuse the crisis, was to let the hostage takers go, and then track them down in Chechnya.

The primary goal of any hostage rescue is to save the hostages. The Russians allowed the Chechens to leave Russian territory, after they previously took hostages in one hospital. The hostages were subsequently freed.

4. Those operations (when successful) show the Russian authorities that they aren't immune from retaliation, and the Chechens have a long arm, also.

5. They also bring attention to the world, about the plight of the Chechen people (that's when the international media finally gets access to the Chechen/Russian conflict (other than that, Russia doesn't allow any coverage of Chechnya).

The following is an example of what the Russian do on a daily basis:

MASS RAPE OF CHECHEN MEN BY RUSSIAN FEDERAL FORCES

Courtesy Of: The JamesTown Foundation
CHECHNYA WEEKLY
Volume 2, Issue 28
(July 24, 2001)
http://jamestown.org

According to Andrei Mironov of the Russian human rights organization Memorial, as cited by Miriam Lanskoy of Boston University, Russian forces stationed in Chechnya recently committed an organized mass rape of Chechen civilian males.

During a fact-finding trip to the North Caucasus, Mironov learned of an incident which took place earlier this month:

"Over 700 men (I was given a list of 762 names) were taken to a field. They [the Russian soldiers] raped a woman in front of them."

The Russian troops, Mironov related, then taunted the Chechen men, calling on them to defend the woman's honor.

Those who intervened, sixty-two men, were themselves then "handcuffed to an armored personnel carrier, and publicly raped."

"Never before have I heard about public rape," Mironov commented, "Of course, people were systematically raped in prisons and detention centers, and [in] military units.

This was intended to break their character. But now this is being done in public."

Mironov added that many of the Chechen men who had been publicly raped vowed that they would now become suicide attackers (Eurasianet, July 19).

In the no. 49 (July 16) issue of Novaya Gazeta, award-winning war correspondent Anna Politkovskaya discussed the same incident and added some details. "Sixty-eight men," she wrote, "living in Sernovodsk, have announced that they were raped by [Russian] soldiers conducting a punitive action, but they have not found the necessary understanding [on the part of the pro-Moscow Chechen authorities].

Forty-eight of them then appealed to [separatist President] Aslan Maskhadov with a request that they be permitted to become kamikazes in order to exact recompense for these humiliations by committing terrorist acts. Maskhadov categorically refused to grant their request. Two of them then attempted to commit suicide. This took place on July 12 in Sernovodsk. One succeeded. The other was revived."

Link To Report:
http://www.jamestown.org/publication...&&issue_id=493


1983-2003 © The Jamestown Foundation

This is a good source on the Chechen Genocide. It has a wealth of information.

[Suomipoika]

PEOPLE DO NOT THINK THE SAME AS YOU DO IN A STATE OF WAR, THEY DONT HAVE SAME WAY OF THINKING AS YOUR BRAIN DOES WITH YOU SITTING ON THAT CHAIR HAVE A CUP OF COFFE AND ENJOYING YOUR DAY. THEIR PHYSIC IS DIFFERENT DUE TO THE STATE OF WAR. CAN YOU COMPREHEND THIS?????

So what? How does that justify taking hostakes or targetting civilians?

[Cognescenti]

Chechen;

Ask yourself who will be remembered as more courageous and honorable.....the murdering beasts responsible for Beslan...or the Zealots of Masada?

[Chechen]

Chechen;

Ask yourself who will be remembered as more courageous and honorable.....the murdering beasts responsible for Beslan...or the Zealots of Masada?

No Putin and his gang will definetely not be remembered as heroes.

[Cognescenti]

No Putin and his gang will definetely not be remembered as heroes.

Putin is very popular...in Russia. That is about the extent of his fan club.

[Chechen]

Putin is very popular...in Russia. That is about the extent of his fan club.

Well once his "fan club" finds out the truth then I don't think he'll have many fans left.

[vpb]

So what? How does that justify taking hostakes or targetting civilians?

I'm not saying wether it justifes or not.
but there is a difference between understanding the act and justifying it.

you have to understand what this people do, bc they Physic is different from us, they are in a state of war, they don't care wether you call them murder or terrorist or what, they are fed up with opression and the brutal regime of russians, and they try any possible way to stop that. so you can't expect them to think the same way you do. cuz you are living in peace and never been on war, but they have been on war for all their lives, and they don't care about what u say. they are fed up with these things. do u get what i'm saying?

[thirdwatch512]

ok, so i see people are justifying taking chldren hostage and killing them huh?

and they blame the russians for this.. because God Forbid the russians are the ones that went in the school, dragged the kids, and blew their heads off!

i too support a free checheyna.. but NEVER in a violent way. never in a way where i would say it's ok to kill innocent children to simply "prove a point."

and to VPB - yes, we do have different mindests. mine is peaceful, yours is violent. and yours shouldn't be tolerated under any curcumstances.

i'm sorry, but you just don't take innocent people as hostage. you don't bloame innocent people for the actions of the government. were these innocent people the ones who hurt the chechens? no.

and btw, before people make a racket saying "oH! america kills the iraqi citizens!" yeah, i know that. but i don't support the war in iraq. so i shouldn't be held accvountable and be blamed for something that i don't support. so don't try and do that here. it's happened too many times.. people on this board trying to blame all non muslim americans for the actions of our government. ridiculous.

just because someone does something wrong, that doesn't give anyone the right to do it to them in return. someone has to draw the line. because if they don't.. well, think about it. russians will freel that they have the right to hurt the chechens. the chechens feelthey have the right to hurt the russians. they will continue to do this, because it's "payback." if someone doesn't give up.. well, there will be never ending mass death.

and to the person who said "there have been reports of Christians killing muslim children." so because a few idiotic "Christians" do that, that gives the chechens the right to do it in return?

CPB, that kind of mindset shouldn't be toelrated. because it justifies terrorism. you might not think it's terrorism. but it is.

[vpb]

ok, so i see people are justifying taking chldren hostage and killing them huh?

don't judge, cuz you don't know wether people justify them or not. they haven't told u yet.

[barney]

Umm, yes they totally have. The whole threads full of excusing killing the innocent.

Is a orthodox Russians blood worth less than a muslims?

Actually...Dont answer that.... I can see it coming!

[thirdwatch512]

don't judge, cuz you don't know wether people justify them or not. they haven't told u yet.

like barney said - we know. it's totally noticable from a Western point of view.

[vpb]

like barney said - we know. it's totally noticable from a Western point of view.

ye, you know everything.

2:11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"


.

[Chechen]

What are you people talking about?? When have the Chechens killed innocent civilians?

[vpb]

What are you people talking about?? When have the Chechens killed innocent civilians?

dont worry bro, they have just switched the sides a little bit. they are themselves confused. can't you see?

[Malaikah]

like barney said - we know. it's totally noticable from a Western point of view.

So do you have special x-ray glasses or something that allow you to read peoples minds just by reading their posts on an internet forum?

I'm a westerner too, how come I haven't been informed of this new technology? :mmokay:

[vpb]

I'm a westerner too, how come I haven't been informed of this new technology?

don't u know??, barney is also an Islamic Scholar, he knows what muslims think. :p , and of course thirdwatch is his friend, so they are both very knowledgeable.

[HBot 5000]

Hostage taking is deplorable

[Muezzin]

I think just about everything that could be said about the original question of this thread (Is hostage taking terrorism or a legitimate operation?) has been said. Views representing the whole spectrum of opinion on the matter have been expressed.

Further, this thread is a lot older than three days, and, as per the limitations for World Affairs threads:

Threads over 3 days old are considered expired and are subject to closure without notice.

Click me

Thread closed.