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Ghira
04-16-2007, 10:30 PM
Angel VS. Pious Huma

Made from light Made from clay.
No Mistakes. Makes mistakes All the time.
Cannot do bad only good. Does sins continously.
They don't have desire (hawa). Everyone has desire.
Always worshipping Allah. Worships Allah sometimes.
Always submitted to Allah's will. Deficient in submission.


From the above it may be clear that the Angels won...But think again

Lets look at ayat of Qur'an.

Imam Ahmad says man can do bad or good and he has a free choice. We have desire (hawa) and fight desire to follow commands of Allah. To overpower that hawa and submit the commands of Allah makes us better than Angels so humans are better.

Sura Al-Mu'minun ayah 5-7.

Also look at Sura Al-Baqqarah ayah 34.
"And (remember) when We said to the Angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers." (2:34).

Man is better than Angels because of this ayah...right

There is another opinion that refutes this opinion.
We as humans have to bow down facing the Kaaba. Obviously no human is better then the Kaaba a stone. We bow down towards to Kaaba to symbolize obedience to Allah commands just like the angels, not because it is better than us. So it does not mean Kaaba is better than Adam. And so Humans are not better than Angels because of prostration alone.

Look at Sura Isra 61:
"And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate unto Adam." They postrated except Iblis (Satan). He said: "Shall I prostrate to one whom you created from clay?"

Obviously Adam is better since Iblis 'slogic of material creation being better is meaningless.

Another look at how Adam was created and How Angels were created.
Allah created Angels from words (Kun faya Kun..Be and it is). But Allah created Adam with his own two hands (SubhanAllah) and gave Adam a soul.

"So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Surah Sad:72)

So Adam is better because of how he was created. Word vs. Hands of Allah Ta'ala.

The debate b/w scholars will continue...There is more but what do you guys think so far..... I thought it is one of the most interesting things ever. I will finish later.
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Muhammad
04-16-2007, 10:45 PM
:sl:

It is an interesting discussion... may I ask if you have any sources for those opinions?

Regarding this point:

Another look at how Adam was created and How Angels were created.
Allah created Angels from words (Kun faya Kun..Be and it is). But Allah created Adam with his own two hands (SubhanAllah) and gave Adam a soul.

"So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Surah Sad:72)

So Adam is better because of how he was created. Word vs. Hands of Allah Ta'ala.
We also have the following verse to consider:

Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. [3:59]
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FBI
04-16-2007, 10:48 PM
Angels don't have free will, we do, I'd say the pious amongst us are the best but then again allah knows best.
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Ghira
04-16-2007, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

It is an interesting discussion... may I ask if you have any sources for those opinions?

Regarding this point:

We also have the following verse to consider:

Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. [3:59]
:sl:
The evidence can be found in Tafsir Ibn Kathir in the famous debate with Musa and Adam. Musa supplicated to Allah to meet Adam..."O my Lord! Show me Adam who caused us and himself to be thrown out of Paradise.'' When Musa met Adam, he said to him, "Are you Adam whom Allah created with His Own Hands, blew life into and commanded the angels to prostrate before''

The debate continued:
"'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.' Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Are you blaming me for a matter which was decreed before I was created? "

The Prophet (saw) said Adam won the debate.

I will continue the debate....soon
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Keltoi
04-16-2007, 11:44 PM
If angels were superior to humans, would God have created us to begin with?
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Ghira
04-17-2007, 12:04 AM
Next argument that Man is better is that man is Khalifa on earth not angels
As stated in Al-Baqarah:30
"Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth."

Angels were not given this special Khalifa status.


When Allah created angles did Allah teach them the names of everything under the heavens or did Allah teach Adam the names of everything under the heavens. Allah taught Adam the names. Angels thought they were the most learned of Allah's creation as stated in. It was not stated with their tongues but was kept inside their hearts. Allah revealed that it was what they were thinking if you read Al-Baqarah: 31-33

"And He taught Adam all the names (of everything), then He showed them to the Angels and said "Tell me the names of these things if you are truthful."
They (angels) said: "Subhanaka, we have no knowledge except what you taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"


When it comes to knowledge who is better one with more knowledge or one without or less knowledge. Obviously one with more knowledge as rhetorically stated in Quran.

Surah Az-Zumar:9
"...Say 'Are those who know equal to those who know not...?'"

And the winner is the Humans...

No says Ibn Taymiyah he states that "Angels are better in this life and human beings are better in the next life." The reason being is because angels do not make any mistakes in this present world and humans do. In the next life, the day of recompense of deeds, muttaqeen will be better than the angels because they will be rewarded with eternal paradise. The angels will not have this unique reward.

Surah An-Naba:30
"Verily, the Muttaqun, there will be success (Paradise).

That concludes the debate...What do you think?

Moral of debate:
Lets us all be amongst the Mutaqeen who will enjoy paradise and be the best creation of Allah (swt). Wouldn't we all love that...To be the best creation of The Creator of Everything.

:D

:sl:
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Khayal
04-17-2007, 12:14 AM
:sl:

Moral of debate:
Lets us all be amongst the Mutaqeen who will enjoy paradise and be the best creation of Allah (swt). InshaAllah! Wouldn't we all love that, Sure! ...To be the best creation of The Creator of Everything. Alhamdulilah!
Nice sharing Brother, jazakAllah khair.

:w:
Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-17-2007, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Ghira
Moral of debate:
Lets us all be amongst the Mutaqeen who will enjoy paradise and be the best creation of Allah (swt). Wouldn't we all love that...To be the best creation of The Creator of Everything.
Moral of debate
Let us be the amongst the men who try to understand their unique duty on this earth. Let's behave like the deputies of Allah and look after his earth as long as we're here. Let's enjoy the blessings of Allah and make this world a happy and cheerful place to live for everyone. Allah would be happy if he sees us happy and making positive use of his blessings.

Never try to lower your status and never try to behave like angels. It's like getting the salary of a high class engineer but doing the job of a machine operator.
Reply

Muslim Woman
04-17-2007, 12:57 AM


I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&


Originally Posted by Ghira
..... Word vs. Hands of Allah Ta'ala.

Do we literally believe that Allah made Adam (P) by His own hands ?

Allah ordered Jinn & Angels to bow down to Adam (P). It's a clear proof that human being are better /more respected :) :p than angels & jinn



Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-17-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman







Do we literally believe that Allah made Adam (P) by His own hands ?

Allah ordered Jinn & Angels to bow down to Adam (P). It's a clear proof that human being are better /more respected :) :p than angels & jinn


I think every Muslim knows this point very well but still they're mislead by some people who try to prove that angels are superior to man. Any man who tries to look like an angel is not better than a man who acts or walks like a real man.
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Ghira
04-17-2007, 02:15 AM
Do we literally believe that Allah made Adam (P) by His own hands ?

Allah ordered Jinn & Angels to bow down to Adam (P). It's a clear proof that human being are better /more respected than angels & jinn
:sl:
Yes read the 4th post.

The evidence can be found in Tafsir Ibn Kathir in the famous debate with Musa and Adam. Musa supplicated to Allah to meet Adam..."O my Lord! Show me Adam who caused us and himself to be thrown out of Paradise.'' When Musa met Adam, he said to him, "Are you Adam whom Allah created with His Own Hands, blew life into and commanded the angels to prostrate before''
Ibn Taymiyah said "Angels are better in this life and human beings are better in the next life." Read my other post to get the full debate...It is so interesting.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
04-17-2007, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Ghira
:sl:




Ibn Taymiyah said "Angels are better in this life and human beings are better in the next life." Read my other post to get the full debate...It is so interesting.
Give evidence from Quran or Hadith. If there's no clear cut evidence, then use the simple logic and common sense.
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Allah-creation
04-17-2007, 02:27 AM
prophet Muhammed(SAW) is a human being and his the best of all Allah's(SW) creation.
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Ghira
04-17-2007, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Give evidence from Quran or Hadith. If there's no clear cut evidence, then use the simple logic and common sense.


:sl:

Obviously you need to read the whole post...All the evidence is from Quran and Sunnah.

The reason being is because angels do not make any mistakes in this present world and humans do. In the next life, the day of recompense of deeds, muttaqeen will be better than the angels because they will be rewarded with eternal paradise. The angels will not have this unique reward.
Let me explain further...In the day of Judgement you cannot buy your way to paradise or out of hell-fire, and if you backbite, slander, hit some Muslim in this world then you pay with your good deeds (yamul deen = day of recompense). There is evidence from Sunnah for that statement I just made if you want I can look it up for you. After Allah has either forgiven us for our mistakes and/or we pay others with our good deeds then in after life we become the best of Allah's creation. The angels are the best of Allah's creation in this present world because they make no mistakes and are completely sinless. As Allah said in

Sura An-Nahl:49-50
"And to Allah prostrate all that is the heavens and all that is in the earth, of the living creatures and the angels, and they are not proud. They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded."

Hope that helps...
Reply

Ghira
04-17-2007, 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by Allah-creation
prophet Muhammed(SAW) is a human being and his the best of all Allah's(SW) creation.
:sl:
Ooohh Nice... I did not think of that. No questions there. :D
But we are not talking about Prophets/Messengers we are talking about the Angel (vs) Normal Mutaqi.
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FBI
04-17-2007, 06:33 PM
:sl:

Whats the point of this whole debate, angels havn't got free will we have, they can't disobey allah, we have a choice to, so them not disobeying allah doesn't make them better then us.
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...
04-17-2007, 06:42 PM
^ thats what i was thinking- angels dont have a free will and they always obey Allah. However humans have a free will and the opportunity to disobey Allah's commands, so if they remain on the straight path and obey Allah then they are better than the angels.
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------
04-17-2007, 06:49 PM
:salamext:

Pointless debate... Allaahu Aalim :-\
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iqbal_soofi
04-17-2007, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
^ thats what i was thinking- angels dont have a free will and they always obey Allah. However humans have a free will and the opportunity to disobey Allah's commands, so if they remain on the straight path and obey Allah then they are better than the angels.
That's right. Only those who follow Allah path are better than angels. But the question is that who knows about Allah's path? Mullahs claim that it's only they who know everthing about Allah's path. On the other hand scientists are doing a lot of research to find what different paths and patterns the forces of nature follow. They're doing a lot of research on social sciences also to find out which is the normal human bahiour or path. Most of their findings are different than those of mullahs. Mullahs always object when they hear about new scientific findings, then later on when the scientific findings are confirmed and become popular in Muslims, then the Mullahs also change their stand and make a U-turn by attempting to prove that those facts were already described in Quran. They not only differ with new findings of the scientists, they differ a lot with each other too. Every mullah claims that his point of view or his interpretation of Quran about Allah's path is 100% correct, and terms every other finding as 100% wrong. There's nothing between these two extremes. Every mullah claims that only his true followers are on the right path of Allah and every other mullah's followers or the scientists are on the wrong path.
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Ghira
04-17-2007, 08:29 PM
If you guys read the whole debate without your assumptions you would really enjoy it. I myself loved the conclusion of the debate and was amazed with what Ibn Taymiyah rahmatuallahi alay said. This is great debate in who is better Human or Angel. Before I heard this I though angels were better creation of Allah. Now I agree with Ibn Taymiyah's point of view.

Iqbal soofi saab....What are you talking about "propoganda forum"?? Your idea of "mullahs" students starting forum is bogus. You just need to chill out. I think your just mad because a mod. deleted your post...don't put your anger out on this forum. I think some you had some bad experiences with the 'mullahs' in your country.
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- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 09:19 PM
:salamext:


Akhi ghira, the main issue is that if someone is saying something which contradicts the Qur'an - then we should delete it right? If someone is saying that a disbeliever is better than someone who is a muttaqi [someone who has taqwa of Allaah] - then that's plainly contradicting the Qur'an, because Allaah Almighty says:

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware. [Qur'an Hujuraat 49:13]

Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.

We've stated many times over that one shouldn't say anything unless you have proof for it from the Qur'an and Sunnah. And this is against forum rules - infact we've given bro iqbaal many chances yet he continues saying things and then blaming the 'mullahs' - when in reality it is the mullah's who explain with evidence. This religion isn't simply opinions, but it depends upon evidences, from Allaah, His Messenger, or the understanding of the companions of Allaah's Messenger.


This is what it says in the forum rules:
Do not say "Islam says X" unless your position is based upon sound evidence - which means the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Always cite your sources. If quoting the Qur'an, give soorah (chapter) and ayah (verse) number. For ahadeeth, you must the name of the collection, volume/book number and hadeeth number. Unless you quoting from an agreed-upon authenthic collection (i.e. Bukharee, Muslim) you must also provide authenthic information. 3% warning


We aren't against people posting their views, so long as they don't start saying that something is a part of Islaam when it clearly contradicts what Allaah or His Messenger (peace be upon him) has said.






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Ghira
04-17-2007, 11:07 PM
Akhi ghira, the main issue is that if someone is saying something which contradicts the Qur'an - then we should delete it right? If someone is saying that a disbeliever is better than someone who is a muttaqi [someone who has taqwa of Allaah] - then that's plainly contradicting the Qur'an, because Allaah Almighty says:
:sl:
You have a point... I guess the brother just has to understand that. You can have your own opinions on how many years of education a person should have, how many stars are in the milky way galaxy, but when it comes to religion of Islam you cannot say something without having your proof. This is how our deen works and this is how it stays intact without corruption. We do take it seriously just like in America they take racial slurs made by popular figures seriously. That is not allowed in their country. In the real Islam that Muslims should pracitice there is no such thing as racism because we are all one big family as the Quran states. We cling onto the Quran and Sunnah and that is our base, our foundation, our identity and anyone who says something by making a statement about Islam that is false we take that as a big offense. Just like the racial slurs made by the popular figures in America.
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- Qatada -
04-17-2007, 11:11 PM
:salamext:


Jazaak Allaah khayr for understanding :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-17-2007, 11:13 PM
:salamext:

our the prophets excluded in this comparison?

well im pretty sure the likes of the four great imaams/sahabi/tabieen is better then the angels.

but Allah knows best....
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-17-2007, 11:19 PM
:sl:

Quran: (2:25): "And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise)---.and they will be given these things in resemblance (i.e., in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Muhtahharatun (purified mates and wives) and that they will have abide therein forever".

A Muslim believes that human beings enjoy an especially high ranking status in the hierarchy of all known creatures. Man and woman occupy this distinguished position because they alone are gifted with rational faculties and spiritual aspirations as well as powers of action. Man and woman are not a condemned race from birth to death, but dignified beings potentially capable of good and noble achievements.

A Muslim also believes that every person is born Muslim. Every person is endowed by Allah with the spiritual potential and intellectual inclination that can make him a good Muslim. Every person's birth takes place according to the will of Allah in realization of His plans and in submission to His commands. Every person is born FREE FROM SIN. When the person reaches the age of maturity and if he is sane, he becomes accountable for all his deeds and intentions. Man is free from sin until he commits sin. There is no inherited sin, and no original sin. Adam committed the first sin, but he prayed to Allah for pardon and Allah granted Adam pardon.

:w:
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islamirama
04-17-2007, 11:21 PM
Who has the right to decide who is better?

by what criteria are you judgeing?

Who gives you the authority to judge?

Better leave such things that do not benefit you in this duniya nor the Hereafter!
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NoName55
04-17-2007, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Who has the right to decide who is better?

by what criteria are you judgeing?

Who gives you the authority to judge?

Better leave such things that do not benefit you in this duniya nor the Hereafter!
:sl:

Then where would the drama be?
This is not the only useles time wasting thread here, the whole site is full of idle gossip and time wasting threads, which many people find entertaining.

If that was not the case Kuffaar, trolls and internet educated self styled googling ulema would not be allowed to desecrate every possible thread.

pupose of "debate" could easily be served in one specific forum while Q& A from the genuine enquirer could be dealt with in an other.

Ma'asalaama
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NobleMuslimUK
04-18-2007, 12:28 AM
:sl:
I dont entirely see how this debate can help people. Angel or human our only purpose is to worship Allah SWT and obey His commands. In our every living moment we must stay in obedience, remembrance and in worship of Allah SWT.
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Ghira
04-18-2007, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
:sl:
I dont entirely see how this debate can help people. Angel or human our only purpose is to worship Allah SWT and obey His commands. In our every living moment we must stay in obedience, remembrance and in worship of Allah SWT.

If the likes of Ibn Taymiyah and Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal spoke about it I feel no reason why we should not disperse the knowledge and why we should not speak about it. Just maybe if some of you could read the whole thing then make your comments it will enlighten you a little. I feel Allah wanted us to know the supriority of bani Adam over his other creations that is why he commanded them to prostrate... Then again who is better now angels or humans..I would say angels in this world and humans in the next...I think this forum should be CLOSED for discussion...It served its purpose.
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- Qatada -
04-18-2007, 01:17 PM
:salamext:


I think it should be closed too. :) Allaah knows best.
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