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England
04-21-2007, 03:08 PM
Seperate thread as requested.

Anyone who sins does it out of their own freedom of choice, so the guy who does a homosexual act knows that it is wrong if they refer to the Guidance which Allaah revealed to His servants, however - they have the freedom of choice whether they want to go along with it or not. If they sin - they do it for their own loss, but if they obey and are grateful - they do it for their own benefit in this world and the hereafter.
Gays are BORN gays. Why did God create gays if it's not permissable? I don't particularly like homosexuals myself. Gays don't like the opposite sex therefore they are only interested in the same sex. Is it not fair that heterosexuals can choose a partner they are attracted to yet these gays were BORN gay yet they're not allowed to choose the people they're attracted to? Some gays say that they are "women in a man's body."
Say if a guy was born gay but wanted to be muslim and do everything right by God. No matter how hard he tries he will be gay therefore no matter how hard he tries he's going to hell.
Is this "Allah's" fault?

If none of the this makes sense then it is only because I have questions but I'm struggling on how to put them...
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FBI
04-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Scientists are really idiots, first they chat about evolution this and that, so if evolution is true why would people be born gay, isn't this genetic suicide wouldn't our genetics want to survive.
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- Qatada -
04-21-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey.

Originally Posted by England
Seperate thread as requested.
Thanks.


Gays are BORN gays. Why did God create gays if it's not permissable?
No-one is born gay. Allaah created the children of Adam in a way that males desire females, and females desire males. The first people to perform the act of homosexuality were the people who were at the time of Prophet Lut [Lot] - and these people were utterly destroyed for rejecting the Messenger sent to them. Therefore they couldn't have inherited it since the people who did that act were destroyed totally.


I don't particularly like homosexuals myself. Gays don't like the opposite sex therefore they are only interested in the same sex. Is it not fair that heterosexuals can choose a partner they are attracted to yet these gays were BORN gay yet they're not allowed to choose the people they're attracted to? Some gays say that they are "women in a man's body."
Say if a guy was born gay but wanted to be muslim and do everything right by God. No matter how hard he tries he will be gay therefore no matter how hard he tries he's going to hell.

Who said he'll go hell? This person is a sinner, and since it's not natural for the person to be gay - then if the person is sincere, Allaah may place the person back on the original fitrah due to their sincerety [fitrah - natural disposition which Allaah has created us all in] and allow them to use the permissible or even rewardable act of intimacy with ones wife.

And anyway Allaah may choose to forgive this person if they are sincere in their repentance.


Is this "Allah's" fault?
Man is blameworthy for his/her own actions since they had the freedom of choice on performing the act of evil/good.


If none of the this makes sense then it is only because I have questions but I'm struggling on how to put them...

Nah, it's ok. I understand you. :)
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vpb
04-21-2007, 03:23 PM
lol, the world has become full of philosophies. these scientists are killing us with them .
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England
04-21-2007, 03:26 PM
Gays are born gays. They don't CHOOSE to be gay, they just are.

It has found that homosexuals often act differently from heterosexuals in early childhood, before they have even heard of sex. A recent study by Simon LeVay, a neurobiologist at the Salk Institute, reported a difference in the hypothalamus, a part of the brain that develops at a young age, between homosexual and heterosexual men.

Source with plenty more info
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...y-pillard.html
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vpb
04-21-2007, 03:33 PM
how do they test a child that has never heard of sex that he is homosexual?
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FBI
04-21-2007, 03:34 PM
:sl:

It has found that homosexuals often act differently from heterosexuals in early childhood, before they have even heard of sex. A recent study by Simon LeVay, a neurobiologist at the Salk Institute, reported a difference in the hypothalamus, a part of the brain that develops at a young age, between homosexual and heterosexual men.
nonsense one of my mate used to know this lad who he went to school with, he was one of the gang then suddenly he has a boyfriend, they guy was normal average guy but decided to play for the wrong team.
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Muhammad
04-21-2007, 03:36 PM
Greetings,

The topic of homosexuality has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread (as well as others): http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ng-gay-14.html

Okay, so let's suppose that view 1 (genetic) is the correct view. So why did Allah swt create them with homosexual tendencies? The answer is simple - it is a test for them. They must not act on these desires but must bear patiently and restrain themselves. Just as people born with the desire to commit fornication and must restrain their desires. Disabled people may have to restrain their desires for their whole lives and bear their condition patiently.
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- Qatada -
04-21-2007, 03:43 PM
Allaah Almighty says in the Qur'an:

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-81]
No-one before the people of Prophet Lut commited that act, and there were many centuries and/or milleniums before that when men and women lived and had perfectly normal relationships, yet they never commited that sin.


Anyway, this is what brother Ansar said in another thread:

Homosexuality - including both gays and lesbians - is seen as a perversion of the natural order which God has instituted for humanity. It is in conflict with the nature of humanity, as a creation that procreates. Hence, it is wrong from a natural perspective. Homosexuality entails many dangerous practices that have disastrous medical consequences. Hence, it is wrong from a medical perspective. Homosexuality negates the basic block of society, a family, thus it demolishes social order at the grass roots level, as children are no longer raised with the compassion of a mother and guardianship of a father. Homosexuals consume from society yet contribute nothing in return. Hence, it is wrong from a societal perspective.
http://www.islamicboard.com/97335-post198.html


He also said something related to this issue of genetic v environmental:


Again, as I already pointed out, there is much support from the scientific community to suggest that homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, not genetic. I don't have a problem if you want to believe that its genetic, since it makes no difference to my argument, but you have to recognize that there is another scientific view on this as well. The two views:
1. genetic- people are born either homo or hetrosexual
2. environmental - homosexuality is a condition which develops in someone due to external influence

Therefore even if you linked that site using the argument that it's genetic, and even if we were to 'believe' that it is genetic, there are many other scientists who disagree and say that its purely environmental.


Now the Question might come up:


"If that's the way they were born, why did Allah make them that way?"

Okay, so let's suppose that view 1 (genetic) is the correct view. So why did Allah swt create them with homosexual tendencies? The answer is simple - it is a test for them. They must not act on these desires but must bear patiently and restrain themselves. Just as people born with the desire to commit fornication and must restrain their desires. Disabled people may have to restrain their desires for their whole lives and bear their condition patiently.
http://www.islamicboard.com/98510-post206.html


More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/524452-post23.html



And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Regards.
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جوري
04-21-2007, 04:26 PM
No one is taught that gays are born gays by convention. I challenge the person who says that they are as taught that homosexuality is due to genetics by a scientist-- unless it is a part of your philosophy class.

Stop passing everything on a scientist saying so, I don't know who these mysterious scientists are that people speak of are. Not every scientist is an evolutionist, or an Atheist. Quite a few on board with PhD's and MD's perhaps they can step forward and defend their profession!

Homosexuality was considered an act of sexual deviance up to 1973 in the (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).. only after heavy lobbying that it made it out of that book.
if you are going to say a scientist said so, then I'd like the report from an esteemed journal
i.e one of the journals provided at the bottom of this page!. I want the article to be addressed toward the medical and scientific community, not the articles disseminated to the public. I want to know the pattern of transmission, the name of the gene, how it is being passed down.. etc etc.. don't pls don't speak with such conviction out of something you read in your Sunday papers...

I have a subscription to the NEJM and I am yet to read about this "Gay-Gene"-- it is a choice, a psychological inclination ( no different than Necrophilia)... but not genetics!


http://www.thelancet.com/

http://content.nejm.org/

http://jama.ama-assn.org/

http://www.uptodate.com/

peace!
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Pk_#2
04-21-2007, 05:27 PM
Allah (Swt) says in the Qur'an:

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

(al-A’raaf 7:80-81)

:happy:
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aamirsaab
04-21-2007, 07:38 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by England
Gays are born gays. They don't CHOOSE to be gay, they just are.
I beg to differ. I studied psychology at As/A level - no evidence suggested that homosexuality was genetic. Factors that did play a huge part in it were environmental and cognitive.


It has found that homosexuals often act differently from heterosexuals in early childhood, before they have even heard of sex. A recent study by Simon LeVay, a neurobiologist at the Salk Institute, reported a difference in the hypothalamus, a part of the brain that develops at a young age, between homosexual and heterosexual men.
A reported difference does not equal cause and affect - there is a possibility that the differences has been caused by external factors or could be a by-product.

I am short on time at the minute since it is maghrib salat, but I will look at that link and give my thoughts on when I return.
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Pk_#2
04-21-2007, 07:59 PM
Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds (in disbelief and evil deed, etc.)
Because he considers himself self-sufficient. (surah Alaq)

The first surah revealed, where Allah (Swt) mentions such ignorant people who believe they are self sufficient and totally independant in all that they do.

:statisfie
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-21-2007, 08:02 PM
a thread started with no sourcing or evidence

nice lol, u lil geezah :p
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aamirsaab
04-21-2007, 08:19 PM
:sl:
Ok it's flame grilling time!

Article says:

Our own research has shown that male sexual orientation is substantially genetic. Over the last two years, we have studied the rates of homosexuality in identical and non-identical twin brothers of gay men, as well as adoptive brothers of gay men. Fifty-two percent of the identical twin brothers were gay, as against 22 percent of non-identical twins and 11 percent of the adoptive, genetically unrelated brothers.
Reason for percentage link with idential twins: both share same environment, similar treatment etc etc. Genetical link is a possibility (to the extent that both members share same dna) however environment is more so since this is what crucially develops a child.

The other two percentage links: the fact that they are not 100% indicates that it is not genetic. Reasons for there being any percentage is not down to genetics either since the number is too insignificant. Additionally, these percentages could merely be a sign of the times - were this experiment/survey taken 100 years ago the percentages would have been far less. Counter arguments are that in those times, society was suppressing homosexual behaviour - fair point but the question that is begging to be asked is to what extent?


In contrast, research on social factors has been fruitless. [:-)...rjw] Despite many attempts, there has been no clear demonstration that parental behavior, even a parent's homosexuality, affects children's sexual orientation.
Children learn from a variety of sources.

Cultures tolerant of homosexuals do not appear to raise more of them than do less permissive societies.
Culture/social norms play huge amounts. Since no evidence was given however (and this information was taken from an article and not from direct source where evidence may have been given), I will set this as even.

The rest of the article says nothing to support that homosexuality is biological.

By all means bring on the info - I enjoy reading :).
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