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Redeemed
04-22-2007, 12:42 AM
There are that many preachers and or pastors preaching the gospel that are so unsettled in the faith that would revert to another religion. You are probably thinking that could happen to me. If you are, you are probably right. That is why I cannot tackle this thing on my own. I spent some time away getting prayed up. I plan on doing some more praying and getting prayer support, because this thing is stronger than I can imagine, but make no mistake about it. Islam is strengthening me to walk closer than ever before with Jesus. As I have mention, Jesus needs to tell me He doesn't want to be the object of my adoration. As it stands, I adore Him and worship Him with all my heart. He said that I am His gift from God. In other words, God gave me to Him. Jesus is actually holding my heart in His hand. But not only me, but also all who love His appearing. Jesus said, “I give eternal life.” (Jn.10) Only God can do that. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus for making Himself out to be God. Jesus response was, “Is it not written in your law that cannot be changed that I said (Jesus), ‘"You are gods"’ how can you then say of me whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world "You are blaspheming, because I said "I am the Son of God?" Believe my works if not me, so you will know that the Father is in me and I in Him. (John 10: 22-42)
Jesus admits that He was going to die. He said, “I lay down my life and take it back I have authority to do this.” According to His own words He was to die and did rise again. Even Isaiah 53 speaks of Jesus being offered up as a sacrifice for our sins and transgressions. This is very clear to me. Even when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildness the Israelites looked at it to be healed. That serpent represented Jesus who became sin for us and who would later on be lifted up as a sin offering like ancient Jewish custom. You know that. Even when God told Moses to strike the rock it represented Jesus who was to be smitten and out of Him would come living water. Later the Children of God got thirsty again and God told Moses to speak to the Rock, but he did not obey. God rebuked him for failing to sanctify Him before the congregation. He wanted Moses to speak and not smite the rock again, because the significance is that Jesus only needed to be smitten once on the cross; after that, we speak to the Rock of our salvation and living water. The Bible says He is the Rock and the Chief Corner Stone that the builders rejected. If I am mistaken for worshipping Jesus, the worse that could happen to me is that Jesus will tell me not to do that, but what will happen to those that say he is only a prophet that didn’t die and rise from the dead like He said would happen. That is tantamount to some one calling the President of a country a Private in the Army. In fact, it is much, much worse than that. `It was commanded that the angles who are greater that us worship the Son. Of the angles God says, He who makes his angels winds, and ministers a fiery flame, But to the Son, Thy throne O God is for ever and ever....” Allah is calling Jesus God. If Allah calls Him God who am I not too????? (Heb 1)
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Abdul Fattah
04-22-2007, 02:47 PM
HI alapiana1
You mind If I ask you out of curiosity, how does Islam strengthen you to walk closer to Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him).

As for what you said here:
If I am mistaken for worshipping Jesus, the worse that could happen to me is that Jesus will tell me not to do that
I thought I should warn you, according to the Islamic faith, worshipping others beside God is a braech of tawheed and a very big sin. So from that point of view, the worst that could happen is not that you're told not to do it. But the worst that could happen is hell. For apointing deitys besides God, which neither God, nor Jesus (peace be upon him) instructed us to do. This is off course from our point of view, and I understand if you disagree. Just thought I'd add my two cents.

May God, the most exalted and high guide you on the straight path, the pure religion, like the faith of Abraham (peace be upon him).
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Woodrow
04-22-2007, 02:56 PM
I can appreciate your views. I imagine this is a very trying time for you. All I can say is to follow the will of Allah(swt) His plans for you will be seen, I am certain you have strong love for Allah(swt) and all you can do is let that love guide you.

I would like to address a few of your comments as how I see them.

but make no mistake about it. Islam is strengthening me to walk closer than ever before with Jesus. As I have mention, Jesus needs to tell me He doesn't want to be the object of my adoration. As it stands, I adore Him and worship Him with all my heart. He said that I am His gift from God.
You will probably disagree with me on this. but as a Muslim I feel very close to Isa(as) and I do hope I walk on the same path he walked. Isa(as) was very much of a guide to show us the path and truth to Allah(swt) His Adoration of Allah(swt) is beyond reproach and we would do well to follow his guidance.

If I am mistaken for worshipping Jesus, the worse that could happen to me is that Jesus will tell me not to do that,
Isa(as) was a man and as a man he has no power to come and tell you not to do that. However, while he walked the Earth He instructed people to worship Allah(swt). The worse thing that can happen is that you will be placing a man as an equal to Allah(swt) and not worshiping Allah(swt) It may not be a nice task on judgement day to tell Allah(swt) that you did not worship him, but you did worship a man.
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MustafaMc
04-22-2007, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
There are that many preachers and or pastors preaching the gospel that are so unsettled in the faith that would revert to another religion. You are probably thinking that could happen to me. If you are, you are probably right.
Actually, you seem quite strong in your faith and very sincere. I admire you for that.

Islam is strengthening me to walk closer than ever before with Jesus.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I interpret this comment is due to the theological opposition from Muslims such as myself. Perhaps, the stronger the opposition, the more you rely upon your faith.

As I have mention, Jesus needs to tell me He doesn't want to be the object of my adoration. As it stands, I adore Him and worship Him with all my heart.
I agree with the comments from the previous 2 posts that this is a very serious comment. I am sure that the flip side for Muslims to deny the Sonship of Jesus is just as serious a comment to you.

If I am mistaken for worshipping Jesus, the worse that could happen to me is that Jesus will tell me not to do that, but what will happen to those that say he is only a prophet that didn’t die and rise from the dead like He said would happen.
I believe that you understand from the Islamic perspective the consequences for worshipping Jesus instead of, or along with the One God, Allah (swt) is most serious.

Peace and may God guide us to the Truth.
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Redeemed
04-22-2007, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
HI alapiana1
You mind If I ask you out of curiosity, how does Islam strengthen you to walk closer to Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him).

As for what you said here:

I thought I should warn you, according to the Islamic faith, worshipping others beside God is a braech of tawheed and a very big sin. So from that point of view, the worst that could happen is not that you're told not to do it. But the worst that could happen is hell. For apointing deitys besides God, which neither God, nor Jesus (peace be upon him) instructed us to do. This is off course from our point of view, and I understand if you disagree. Just thought I'd add my two cents.

May God, the most exalted and high guide you on the straight path, the pure religion, like the faith of Abraham (peace be upon him).
I can truly appreciate your heart felt concern. that is why this is so difficult for me. I pray to God like Jesus said to do, but I see Jesus as not another God but an extension of Him. What you say sounds very scary and dangerous. I do not to offend God, but I am a prisoner of Christ, and I can't set myself free of Him because I believe He is the way the truth and the life. If I didn't believe that, I would leave, but He is all I know of that has the words of eternal life.
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Woodrow
04-22-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I can truly appreciate your heart felt concern. that is why this is so difficult for me. I pray to God like Jesus said to do, but I see Jesus as not another God but an extension of Him. What you say sounds very scary and dangerous. I do not to offend God, but I am a prisoner of Christ, and I can't set myself free of Him because I believe He is the way the truth and the life. If I didn't believe that, I would leave, but He is all I know of that has the words of eternal life.
As Muslims we do believe he was given the words of eternal life and that he did all he could to share them with all of mankind. But, mankind did not listen and only saved the words of the witnesses, which were not the word of God(swt) nor inspired. We do not know what if any of those witness accounts are true without having the words of the Injil that was given to Isa(as). As Muslims we believe it would have been similar to the Qur'an, but written for the people of that time and location. Which is why we do accept as true that which does not contradict the Qur'an.
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Abdul Fattah
04-22-2007, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I can truly appreciate your heart felt concern. that is why this is so difficult for me. I pray to God like Jesus said to do, but I see Jesus as not another God but an extension of Him. What you say sounds very scary and dangerous. I do not to offend God, but I am a prisoner of Christ, and I can't set myself free of Him because I believe He is the way the truth and the life. If I didn't believe that, I would leave, but He is all I know of that has the words of eternal life.
I understand the difficulty of your dilemma. Ask your self this. Is it possible that every time a prayer of you got answered, that every time you were guided and helped, that it was God who did it "despite" your (from our opinion wrongfull) worship of Jesus (peace be upon him). Just because you interpreted it as being an answer from Jesus (peace be upon him) doesn't mean that it actually was such a case. You even call yourself a prisoner. But can you assert with certainty that these feelings and experiences of events that you have gathered aren't a wrongful interpretation of what really happened? We could go into a deep theological discussion about what jesus (peace be upon him) said and didn't said. We could talk about the different denominations about unitarians and about christian history. But I think that would do neither of us any good, would it?

No, the best advice I can give you, if you are in doubt:
Don't believe us. Don't believe your priest either. Go to the source yourself. Ask God the most exalted and praiseworthy. Ask to the one that created you and sustains you, pray and ask: "guide me". Ask God: "Whichever is best for me and most righteous to you, guide me to it."

Oh, and sorry if my answers come across as judgmental or "strong". It is not my intention to be condescending either. But then again, I think your previous post showed that you understand me quite well. May God guide us all.
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Redeemed
04-22-2007, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
I understand the difficulty of your dilemma. Ask your self this. Is it possible that every time a prayer of you got answered, that every time you were guided and helped, that it was God who did it "despite" your (from our opinion wrongfull) worship of Jesus (peace be upon him). Just because you interpreted it as being an answer from Jesus (peace be upon him) doesn't mean that it actually was such a case. You even call yourself a prisoner. But can you assert with certainty that these feelings and experiences of events that you have gathered aren't a wrongful interpretation of what really happened? We could go into a deep theological discussion about what jesus (peace be upon him) said and didn't said. We could talk about the different denominations about unitarians and about christian history. But I think that would do neither of us any good, would it?

No, the best advice I can give you, if you are in doubt:
Don't believe us. Don't believe your priest either. Go to the source yourself. Ask God the most exalted and praiseworthy. Ask to the one that created you and sustains you, pray and ask: "guide me". Ask God: "Whichever is best for me and most righteous to you, guide me to it."

Oh, and sorry if my answers come across as judgmental or "strong". It is not my intention to be condescending either. But then again, I think your previous post showed that you understand me quite well. May God guide us all.
If you only knew me before I gave my heart to God, you would see the change in my life now. My being a slave to Christ as made me free from the power of sin. It has also made me a friend of God. I am not a nominal Christian; I am a disciple of Christ. I follow Him and pray to God the way He says. The Jesus you know and speak of as a prophet is not the same one I follow. My Jesus is different. The one I follow and know holds all things together by the word of His power. Our God is a Spirit and our Creator is His word. He is a Spirit, and He is Holy that is why we Christians believe He is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is His Word. To man this is a hard saying and impossibility, but with God all things are possible. There is only one God. How could I become anything else when I believe that having Christ is to have life, and to know Him is to have eternal life. I care about you as a brother of humanity, and there isn't anything I wouldn't for you to see things the way I do or better yet the way that God does. I have cried out to God many times, and He has given me a heavenly vision of what it is like to be one with Him through His Son, but you will tell me that I am committing the unpardonable sin because I believe what Jesus said and not untruth about Him and what He said. I can read I know what He said. What will happen to those who reject His words, as not being truth when they find out they were God’s words. Will you still deny Him is honor as Son and says it is a lie when He tells you face-to-face "I am?"
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Abdul Fattah
04-22-2007, 11:41 PM
Well You do realise I could just as easely turn the tables on this? Most of the arguments you use are double cutting swords. I geuss the only thing left now is to agree to disagree.
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snakelegs
04-22-2007, 11:49 PM
i think muslims and christians will never agree on this - they simply cannot and, as abdul fattah says, you both will just have to accept this.
but i wanted to say that this is an unusual thread - i think the discussion has been very sincere on both sides, and refreshingly free of assault on each other's religion.
:thumbs_up
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Umar001
04-23-2007, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Jesus will tell me not to do that

Jesus will say this, whether you can hear it now or whether some other force is blocking your ears;

Never did I say to them aught except what You (The Main God) did command me to say: 'Worship Allāh (The Main God), my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

Jesus will say it, and on that day you will know it, and how sad shall the faces be of those who worked in vain in this world, praying and fasting but devoting those acts to the wrong authority, toiling hard whilst knowing that they are placing their faith in a place where it should not be placed.

And how clearly will you see and hear, the Day when you will appear before The God Jesus prayed to! woe unto those who hear but hear not and see but see not from the meeting of a great Day with their Lord.
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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think muslims and christians will never agree on this - they simply cannot and, as abdul fattah says, you both will just have to accept this.
but i wanted to say that this is an unusual thread - i think the discussion has been very sincere on both sides, and refreshingly free of assault on each other's religion.
:thumbs_up
I appreciate your comment, and I notice that too. It is great when that happens. Let's do continue to deep this spirit of dialogue.
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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Jesus will say this, whether you can hear it now or whether some other force is blocking your ears;

Never did I say to them aught except what You (The Main God) did command me to say: 'Worship Allāh (The Main God), my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

Jesus will say it, and on that day you will know it, and how sad shall the faces be of those who worked in vain in this world, praying and fasting but devoting those acts to the wrong authority, toiling hard whilst knowing that they are placing their faith in a place where it should not be placed.

And how clearly will you see and hear, the Day when you will appear before The God Jesus prayed to! woe unto those who hear but hear not and see but see not from the meeting of a great Day with their Lord.
I guess what it comes down to is what we believe. If I thought the Bible wasn't true to the spirit of what it states explicitly and implicitly or from what I can infer that Of course there would be no reason to follow it I would probably be agnostic in that case, but I have also believed in God and prayed fro Him to reveal Himself to me some how. What I got was the message I shared. I must have the faith to believe that when I pray to God for a fish that He is not going to give me a serpent and If I ask for bread He will not give me a rock. Jesus said I am the bread of life. If you eat of this bread you will not go hungry. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. That is why I do not hungry for anything else. It took faith on my part to experience this. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those that come to Him must believe that He is and is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him. I have experience those rewards. That is why I cannot be snatch out of His hand.
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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well You do realise I could just as easely turn the tables on this? Most of the arguments you use are double cutting swords. I geuss the only thing left now is to agree to disagree.
I can agree to disagree, but as long as there is life, there is hope. I will still always look for a way to share truth whether it is accepted or rejected. I care too much to stop trying to share what I consider to be very good news.
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Muslim Woman
04-23-2007, 01:26 AM


I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

useful links:


SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY

by Dr. Zakir Naik


http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm


CONCLUSION

(a) If Christian is a person who follows the teachings of Christ (pbuh) and not one who worships Christ (pbuh). (We are more Christian than the Christians themselves) :)



(b) Muslim is a person who submits his will to Allah ( God Almighty )

Jesus (pbuh) said, "not my will but thy will be done." i.e. Muslim. John 5:30


http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...milarities.htm



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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

useful links:


SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY

by Dr. Zakir Naik


http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm


CONCLUSION

(a) If Christian is a person who follows the teachings of Christ (pbuh) and not one who worships Christ (pbuh). (We are more Christian than the Christians themselves) :)



(b) Muslim is a person who submits his will to Allah ( God Almighty )

Jesus (pbuh) said, "not my will but thy will be done." i.e. Muslim. John 5:30


http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...milarities.htm


You believe that Jesus is a prophet. Will you follow his teachings? If you do, would that make you a Christian?
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Muslim Woman
04-23-2007, 01:57 AM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by alapiana1
You believe that Jesus is a prophet. Will you follow his teachings? If you do, would that make you a Christian?

JESUS (p) taught us to worship ONE God only . JESUS (p) declared that God is greater than all. YES , of course i believe in his teaching & that makes me a Muslim ( surrendered to One God ).

:)

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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;





JESUS (p) taught us to worship ONE God only . JESUS (p) declared that God is greater than all. YES , of course i believe in his teaching & that makes me a Muslim ( surrendered to One God ).

:)
I have no trouble agreeing with that!!
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Woodrow
04-23-2007, 02:44 AM
You will find many Christian reverts say that it was after reverting to Islam they became true Christians in the way Allah(swt) wanted. Muslims do have very deep love for Isa(as).

By understanding that he was a true prophet(PBUH), we come to discover that we can love him in the way we were intended to. The truth is so much more beautiful, than the errors. Isa(as) gave the word as to how people should follow Allah(swt), but the people failed to follow what he said and came to worship what was said about him while forgetting to worship Allah(swt)
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MustafaMc
04-23-2007, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I can agree to disagree, but as long as there is life, there is hope. I will still always look for a way to share truth whether it is accepted or rejected. I care too much to stop trying to share what I consider to be very good news.
This indicates that the flow of truth in this thread has been unidirectional and coming only from your posts. I think that each person in this thread could have written the exact same message with the Muslims implying that the flow of truth was actually in the reverse direction. But that is just my opinion.
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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
You will find many Christian reverts say that it was after reverting to Islam they became true Christians in the way Allah(swt) wanted. Muslims do have very deep love for Isa(as).

By understanding that he was a true prophet(PBUH), we come to discover that we can love him in the way we were intended to. The truth is so much more beautiful, than the errors. Isa(as) gave the word as to how people should follow Allah(swt), but the people failed to follow what he said and came to worship what was said about him while forgetting to worship Allah(swt)
I can sense a dead end here, because what you say is true according to the Qu'ran but not according to the Bible. We are in an impossible situation here, but with God all things are possible, and He will make a way where there seems to be no way.
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Umar001
04-23-2007, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I guess what it comes down to is what we believe. If I thought the Bible wasn't true to the spirit of what it states explicitly and implicitly or from what I can infer that Of course there would be no reason to follow it I would probably be agnostic in that case, but I have also believed in God and prayed fro Him to reveal Himself to me some how. What I got was the message I shared. I must have the faith to believe that when I pray to God for a fish that He is not going to give me a serpent and If I ask for bread He will not give me a rock. Jesus said I am the bread of life. If you eat of this bread you will not go hungry. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. That is why I do not hungry for anything else. It took faith on my part to experience this. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those that come to Him must believe that He is and is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him. I have experience those rewards. That is why I cannot be snatch out of His hand.
If someone wants something bad enough he can make it happen. You believe in the world of demons and spirits which can effect us, yet you rely on your feelings which could be effected, it's your choice to do so, and you can believe till you make yourself believe it's true, but the truth doesn't change.

One can keep drinking from a fountain but when asked why do you drink from that fountain say 'It just feels good' or one can test the fountain to see if it has any hidden defects which although make it taste good make the drinker's ending terrible.

Eesa.
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Woodrow
04-23-2007, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I can sense a dead end here, because what you say is true according to the Qu'ran but not according to the Bible. We are in an impossible situation here, but with God all things are possible, and He will make a way where there seems to be no way.
Here we see things with opposite views. to me the Bible is a Dead End. Isa(as) was a messenger(PBUH) who came with a beautiful message. But, people chose to ignore the message and came to worship the messenger. as time went on The love of the messenger became the religion and the message was lost.

but with God all things are possible, and He will make a way where there seems to be no way.
Prayer to find the right path is the best choice. We also need to remember that often the answer may not be what we expected or want it to be and may even be alien to our thought.

Sometimes it is hard to see we have found what we were seeking and it is only after we remove our own desires do we see what it is we need.
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Muslim Woman
04-23-2007, 04:22 PM


Salaam/peace;


Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have no trouble agreeing with that!!

pl. explain more . IF u agree that God is ONE and God is greater than all , then why do u worship JESUS (p) ?


If I am mistaken for worshipping Jesus, the worse that could happen to me is that Jesus will tell me not to do that,

----what about the revenge God will take regarding ur own holy Book ? REMEMBER , Bible tells u God is very jealous & WILL take revenge if u take other gods besides HIM>

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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
If someone wants something bad enough he can make it happen. You believe in the world of demons and spirits which can effect us, yet you rely on your feelings which could be effected, it's your choice to do so, and you can believe till you make yourself believe it's true, but the truth doesn't change.

One can keep drinking from a fountain but when asked why do you drink from that fountain say 'It just feels good' or one can test the fountain to see if it has any hidden defects which although make it taste good make the drinker's ending terrible.

Eesa.
With all due respect, you need to reread what I said. I mentionsed nothing about feelings. I mentioned faith and obedience to what is written in the Bible that says taste and see the the Lord is good. To taste takes faith. I said, "I must have faith that when I cry out to God for a fish and bread that He is not going to give me a serpent and rock." I also said, "without faith we cannot please God." I said nothing about feelings. It is written, "The just live by faith." When i go by faith, it is better than a known path. It is like flying a plane. An instrument rated pilot goes by his instruments not his feelings.
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Woodrow
04-23-2007, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
With all due respect, you need to reread what I said. I mentionsed nothing about feelings. I mentioned faith and obedience to what is written in the Bible that says taste and see the the Lord is good. To taste takes faith. I said, "I must have faith that when I cry out to God for a fish and bread that He is not going to give me a serpent and rock." I also said, "without faith we cannot please God." I said nothing about feelings. It is written, "The just live by faith." When i go by faith, it is better than a known path. It is like flying a plane. An instrument rated pilot goes by his instruments not his feelings.
To taste takes faith. I said, "I must have faith that when I cry out to God for a fish and bread that He is not going to give me a serpent and rock."
I somewhat agree with that. but, I believe Allah(swt) will give me what I need and that may not be what I want. If I ask for a fish and bread, but got a serpent and a rock instead. I would know he gave what was best for me and I would prostrate with gratitude.
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MustafaMc
04-23-2007, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Isa(as) was a messenger(PBUH) who came with a beautiful message. But, people chose to ignore the message and came to worship the messenger. as time went on The love of the messenger became the religion and the message was lost.
Isn't this what they call a red herring?

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary Main Entry: red herring
Function: noun
1 : a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color
2 [from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue
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Redeemed
04-23-2007, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I somewhat agree with that. but, I believe Allah(swt) will give me what I need and that may not be what I want. If I ask for a fish and bread, but got a serpent and a rock instead. I would know he gave what was best for me and I would prostrate with gratitude.
I somewhat agree with you as well. I think I see God in a different way than you. I think of how much my parents love me especially when I was a little baby. When I cried for milk, they wouldn't have given me poison. God loves me way more than my parents could ever do. From what your saying I wouldn't want to be your son. What I mean is receiving false doctrine from God is like getting poison from God. God won't do that. Whatever we get from God is good even if our flesh doesn't like it. The devil would give something evil. If we are not watching out like Jesus said for false prophets, they will definitely suck us in. If we are not praying that God deliver us from evil and lead us not into temptation, we will fall. I can do nothing in my own strength, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. All things work together for our good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose even the bad things that happen. What I am saying to you is I trust God, If I am not going in the right direction, He will intervene when He is ready. He will finish the work He started in me. Praise His name.

Peace
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Redeemed
04-24-2007, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Isa(as) was a messenger(PBUH) who came with a beautiful message. But, people chose to ignore the message and came to worship the messenger. as time went on The love of the messenger became the religion and the message was lost.

I understand why you say this. It is becasue that is what is taught in the Qur'an, but not in the Bible. We give heed to the Bible. And according to that, we are not worshiping a messenger; we are worshiping the message, which is the Word of God.
Reply

Redeemed
04-24-2007, 12:02 AM
We are much like Pilate. We are always
asking, "What is truth?" and then crucifying
the truth that stands before our very eyes.
Thomas Merton {1915-1968}
Reply

MustafaMc
04-24-2007, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
We give heed to the Bible. And according to that, we are not worshiping a messenger; we are worshiping the message, which is the Word of God.
I believe that you have said you worship Jesus. Note how the focus in Christianity is on Jesus (pbuh) and how the focus in Islam is on the One God (swt).
Reply

Umar001
04-24-2007, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
With all due respect, you need to reread what I said. I mentionsed nothing about feelings. I mentioned faith and obedience to what is written in the Bible that says taste and see the the Lord is good. To taste takes faith. I said, "I must have faith that when I cry out to God for a fish and bread that He is not going to give me a serpent and rock." I also said, "without faith we cannot please God." I said nothing about feelings. It is written, "The just live by faith." When i go by faith, it is better than a known path. It is like flying a plane. An instrument rated pilot goes by his instruments not his feelings.
I think you are misunderstanding me, you may not have spoken of the word feeling but your post was clear;

Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. That is why I do not hungry for anything else.
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have experience those rewards. That is why I cannot be snatch out of His hand.

The two above are plain examples of your feelings, you have tasted the bread and you cannot be snatched out of His hand, this is what you feel, who says that what you tasted was not something that another force at hand could have let you taste in fooling you.

You keep speaking of faith, but anyone says t hey have faith, rather, it is faith which is placed in something secure. A Christian places faith in his scriptures, a Muslim places faith in his scriptures, a Hindu places faith in his scriptures, to be the right ones and to help him understand, are all those people then right because they live by that faith? Certainly not, rather this word you keep using, faith, is only praise worthy when put into something secure.
Reply

Redeemed
04-24-2007, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I believe that you have said you worship Jesus. Note how the focus in Christianity is on Jesus (pbuh) and how the focus in Islam is on the One God (swt).
We believe that Jesus is the Word of God
Reply

Woodrow
04-24-2007, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
We believe that Jesus is the Word of God
I think I speak for many Muslims when I say "All of the Prophets(PBUT) are the Word of Allah(swt)" they were all used as the means for Allah(swt) to give mankind his clear Word on how to worship him and to stay on the path to Jannah.

the Prophets(PBUT) are all beautiful messengers and in their own right are models of how we should serve.

Serving and worshiping Allah(swt) is the only path to heaven. It is through the Prophets(PBUT) that we are told of how to reach Allah(swt). So in that sense it is very true it is through them we reach Allah(swt). However, it is not them as a person, it is the message that is the Key.

There is always a very strong temptation to praise the Prophets(PBUT) and if a person is not careful, that temptation will lead to worshiping them.

Isa(as) has lead many people to Islam. A strong true Christian often comes to the realization that Isa(as) was teaching mankind to become Muslims (Servants of Allah(swt))
Reply

poga
04-24-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can appreciate your views. I imagine this is a very trying time for you. All I can say is to follow the will of Allah(swt) His plans for you will be seen, I am certain you have strong love for Allah(swt) and all you can do is let that love guide you.

I would like to address a few of your comments as how I see them.



You will probably disagree with me on this. but as a Muslim I feel very close to Isa(as) and I do hope I walk on the same path he walked. Isa(as) was very much of a guide to show us the path and truth to Allah(swt) His Adoration of Allah(swt) is beyond reproach and we would do well to follow his guidance.



Isa(as) was a man and as a man he has no power to come and tell you not to do that. However, while he walked the Earth He instructed people to worship Allah(swt). The worse thing that can happen is that you will be placing a man as an equal to Allah(swt) and not worshiping Allah(swt) It may not be a nice task on judgement day to tell Allah(swt) that you did not worship him, but you did worship a man.

BISMILLAH

Mrs Be Aql : Sign of Jonah is he lived throughout his ordeal
And here healer of all could not him self heal
The doctor died on the cross for patients sake
Father the Jesus you speak is the Jesus the fake
Jesus son of Merry
The divine light the Godly glory
He is the light positive that exposes every negative darkness
Say Jesus is RUHALLAH the soul of unequal greatness
He is the man without the father begotten by virgin woman
He is the messenger of ALLAH the guidance for every human

Mr Barzakh : Jesus is the sneeze of Adam what GOD kept in the jar
The unmutilated test tube baby in this mutant SANSAR
He is the organic element from original heavenly Adam
He is the divinity made in the earthly womb
He was all peace so detached him self for hidden jihadic training
The day he returns is the day of rage and reckoning
With the full of fury anger and fear
He will punish the wicked and comfort the sufferer
That will be the day you will witness miracles of Christ
The day every wrong doers will be robbed by the very righteous heist

Dr Humayun : Buddhist Sutra and christian enigma
Hidden years of Jesus life in the land of Brahma
Even then and there
He fought Indian evil cast in the holy war
In the fitting jihad he fought like Muslim
He fought the evil race therefore Brahman and Kshatriya tried to kill him
But the poor Sudra's and rich bikkoos
Rightly guided Brahmans and just Jews
All loved him apart from hated Satan
And most loving heart is heart of an Indian
They sheltered him in the birth place of mother Ganga
There he learned the way of sat chit Sanga
From fourteen up toward his forty
He admired Indian ugliness and Indian beauty

Poga Say's in a foolington maze

Mariam flower the immortal bud
Mariam flower is the botanical mud
Mariam flower that relives the labour pain
Mariam flower that forever remain
Mariam flower which begets the Jesus fruit
The earthly tree with heavenly root
Jesus tree the evergreen
Jesus tree the immortal unseen
Jesus tree the masiha Mahabot
Jesus tree the divinity from earthly Mariam pot
Jesus tree the longest living man
Mentioned in the AL QURAN the divine pen
As Jesus son of marry daughter of Imran
As Jesus prophet of ALLAH the guide for human

:w:
Reply

Redeemed
04-24-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think I speak for many Muslims when I say "All of the Prophets(PBUT) are the Word of Allah(swt)" they were all used as the means for Allah(swt) to give mankind his clear Word on how to worship him and to stay on the path to Jannah.

the Prophets(PBUT) are all beautiful messengers and in their own right are models of how we should serve.

Serving and worshiping Allah(swt) is the only path to heaven. It is through the Prophets(PBUT) that we are told of how to reach Allah(swt). So in that sense it is very true it is through them we reach Allah(swt). However, it is not them as a person, it is the message that is the Key.

There is always a very strong temptation to praise the Prophets(PBUT) and if a person is not careful, that temptation will lead to worshiping them.

Isa(as) has lead many people to Islam. A strong true Christian often comes to the realization that Isa(as) was teaching mankind to become Muslims (Servants of Allah(swt))
There is a significant difference between being the Word of God that was made flesh and being a spokesman for God. If are saying that Muhammad fits the verse in the Bible that says, "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God." I believe that someone who is the Word of God would trump those who are just a spokesman for God. I want to go to the highest source. God wouldn't be anything without His Word. His Word is “Exalted above all His name.” This is why I say the teachings of Islam strengthen my Christianity. If you say you speak for all Muslims about all your prophets being the word of God, I would like you to quote from the Qur’an where. Muhammad didn't write all of it anyway. People wrote down what they remember him saying like the Bible was also written.
Peace
Reply

Umar001
04-24-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I want to go to the highest source.
The highest should equal the most reliable yet you have still to show that the Bible is reliable, a task you started a thread for a while back.


Originally Posted by alapiana1
Muhammad didn't write all of it anyway. People wrote down what they remember him saying like the Bible was also written.
Peace
I will ask you to refrain from making statements which have no basis at all.

I tried to engage with you in the other thread about the reliability of the Bible and its composition but you preached.

Now you state that the compilation of the Qu'ran and the compilation of the Bible is similar.

Have you read anything? I ask you to either back up your statement or retract it, please.

Eesa
Reply

Redeemed
04-25-2007, 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
The highest should equal the most reliable yet you have still to show that the Bible is reliable, a task you started a thread for a while back.




I will ask you to refrain from making statements which have no basis at all.

I tried to engage with you in the other thread about the reliability of the Bible and its composition but you preached.

Now you state that the compilation of the Qu'ran and the compilation of the Bible is similar.

Have you read anything? I ask you to either back up your statement or retract it, please.

Eesa
Yes, fair enough. I have been reading up on it. Your right I don't know much about Islam, but I have been learning a lot from you and others like you, but I don't want my information to come from one source mainly this forum. I have learned that the Qur’an is the word of God of Muslims just like the Bible is for the Christians. In modern times, however, "The Qur'an has faced many of the same dilemmas as the Bible (as I have already mentioned). A major issue is the inspiration of the Qur'an. Islamic scholars do not agree as a whole on how the Qur'an came to be true, although conservative Islamic scholars accept it all as literally true." If modern Muslims scholars don’t agree, you could imagine the doubts I would have. I have learned that the Qur'an was written and revealed in Arabic. And I believe that the Muslims as you have mentioned preserved it very carefully even to the point of not accepting any translation like is done to the Bible. Even though the Arabic language is rich and preserved and the reliability in my opinion is without question. In other words, to put it your way, it hasn’t been butcher like the Bible. I do believe this. So you'll get no argument from me there. However, the Qur’an must in my opinion be evaluated for it's validity not just its reliability. The Bible as I have mentioned might have transnational errors, but the spirit of what Jesus and the prophets say through it cannot be put out it is like trying to cover a candle with a box. It can only hide the light for a short time until the box bursts into flames. I believe although there is a night and day difference between the Bible and the Qur’an the Prophet Muhammad got a lot of things from the Old Testament. “The Qur’an came into writing form shortly after Muhammad’s death” (Handbook of today’s religions). All the surahs of the Qur’an had been recorded in writing before the Prophet’s death, and many Muslims had committed the whole Koran to memory. But when the surahs were dispersed among the people; and when in a battle which took place during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr- that is to say, within two years of the Prophet’s death- a large number of those who knew the whole Koran by heart were killed, a collection of the whole Koran was made and put in writing. ...The Koran has thus been very carefully preserved ) Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, trans., The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, New York: Mentor Books, n.d., p xxxviii).
On the origin of the Qur’an, Guillaume comments: from the books of tradition we learn that the prophet was subject to ecstatic seizures. He is reported to have said that when inspiration came to him he felt as it were the painful sounding of a bell. Even in cold weather his forehead was bathed in sweat (Guillaume, op. cit., p 56). The prophet would have his wife wrap him in a veil and he even got visions in his sleep. The veiling of the head and the use of rhymed prose were marks of Arabian soothsayer, while the feeling of physical violence and compulsion, and outward appearance of possession were sometimes recorded by, or observed in, the Hebrew prophets. The Qur’an as we have it now is a record of what Muhammad said while in the state or states just mentioned. It is beyond doubt that his hearers recognized the symptoms of revelation; otherwise his obiter dicta which the literature purports to record would be included in the Qur’an (Guillaume, op. cit., p 56). Mow I know that Jesus sweat drops of blood in Gethsemane the night before His crucifixion but that is understandable. The things that I have been reading about the origins of the Qur’an make me wonder if it is true. If it is, I want to stay in the arms of Christ more than ever. You wanted me to back up what I said, so I am trying to do that. I hope you don't get angry at me for sharing my research.
Reply

Woodrow
04-25-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
There is a significant difference between being the Word of God that was made flesh and being a spokesman for God. If are saying that Muhammad fits the verse in the Bible that says, "In the beginning was the word. The word was with God and the word was God." I believe that someone who is the Word of God would trump those who are just a spokesman for God. I want to go to the highest source. God wouldn't be anything without His Word. His Word is “Exalted above all His name.” This is why I say the teachings of Islam strengthen my Christianity. If you say you speak for all Muslims about all your prophets being the word of God, I would like you to quote from the Qur’an where. Muhammad didn't write all of it anyway. People wrote down what they remember him saying like the Bible was also written.
Peace
If you say you speak for all Muslims about all your prophets being the word of God, I would like you to quote from the Qur’an where.
Peace. I would like to clarify I did not say I speak for all Muslims, I said
I think I speak for many Muslims when I say
.

They are your prophets also, except you do not accept Muhammad.

To understand what I mean by "Word of God(swt)" You can not take it out of context from the rest of the comment.

the Prophets(PBUT) are all beautiful messengers and in their own right are models of how we should serve.

Serving and worshiping Allah(swt) is the only path to heaven. It is through the Prophets(PBUT) that we are told of how to reach Allah(swt). So in that sense it is very true it is through them we reach Allah(swt).
However, it is not them as a person, it is the message that is the Key.
We also want to go to the highest source as you stated you desire to.
I want to go to the highest source.
For that reason we worship who Isa(as) worshiped.
Reply

ummzayd
04-25-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
God wouldn't be anything without His Word.
Peace
I'm not sure how you are justifying or rationalising this statement to yourself but to a Muslim it seems pretty shocking to say "God wouldn't be anything without......".

May God guide those who sincerely seek truth to the truth ameen
Reply

poga
04-25-2007, 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace. I would like to clarify I did not say I speak for all Muslims, I said .

They are your prophets also, except you do not accept Muhammad.

To understand what I mean by "Word of God(swt)" You can not take it out of context from the rest of the comment.



We also want to go to the highest source as you stated you desire to.


For that reason we worship who Isa(as) worshiped.
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace. I would like to clarify I did not say I speak for all Muslims, I said .

They are your prophets also, except you do not accept Muhammad.

To understand what I mean by "Word of God(swt)" You can not take it out of context from the rest of the comment.



We also want to go to the highest source as you stated you desire to.


For that reason we worship who Isa(as) worshiped.
ASSALAMUALIKUM

Among the mountain of wothless stones there is a jem and jem is the word i ask and request you brother dig deeper search this connection between OM and AMEN there is two more source beside AL QURAN AND THORA one is egyptian hermetica other is indian AVIDIYA
this WORD also relates to your another question about science of creation from nothing
Everything is pulse all is viabration sound is the root element of this creaion
sound is from the speaker yet the echo is free from the speakers part portion or section :w:
Reply

MustafaMc
04-25-2007, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
For that reason we worship who Isa(as) worshiped.
This is a critical Truth that cannot be disputed. I think it is self evident who Christians worship and pray to. In the South there is a common saying among country people, "Lord, help me, Jesus!" and when something good happens they say, "Thank you, Jesus!"

In contrast, Jesus prayed to the One God - not to himself.
Matthew 14:23 And after he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into the mountain apart to pray: and when even was come, he was there alone.
Matthew 26:36-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go yonder and pray. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and sore troubled. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me. And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

There is no question but that Jesus (pbuh) saw "the Father" as greater than himself and prayed to Him. I and all Muslims worship and pray to the same God, the One God, that Jesus (pbuh) prayed to. We Muslims also strive to submit our wills to Allah's (swt) Will just as Jesus (pbuh) indicated.
Reply

Umar001
04-25-2007, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Yes, fair enough. I have been reading up on it. Your right I don't know much about Islam, but I have been learning a lot from you and others like you, but I don't want my information to come from one source mainly this forum. I have learned that the Qur’an is the word of God of Muslims just like the Bible is for the Christians. In modern times, however, "The Qur'an has faced many of the same dilemmas as the Bible (as I have already mentioned). A major issue is the inspiration of the Qur'an. Islamic scholars do not agree as a whole on how the Qur'an came to be true, although conservative Islamic scholars accept it all as literally true." If modern Muslims scholars don’t agree, you could imagine the doubts I would have.
A scholar is not be taken as infallible rather his status comes from his accuracy, if a person makes many mistakes and the likes then his scholarly status is disputed. These people you refer to making accusations on the Qu'ran if they are making mistakes time and time again beyond the scope of just human errors and so forth then they are not scholars.

Anyhow, bring forth your doubts, you know there are self proclaimed scholars in Christianity who preach about this world being hell, does this mean its true? No we have to asess their claims.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have learned that the Qur'an was written and revealed in Arabic. And I believe that the Muslims as you have mentioned preserved it very carefully even to the point of not accepting any translation like is done to the Bible. Even though the Arabic language is rich and preserved and the reliability in my opinion is without question. In other words, to put it your way, it hasn’t been butcher like the Bible. I do believe this. So you'll get no argument from me there.
Well then there's alot of difference between your earlier statement about the compilation being similar! People wrote down what they remember him saying like the Bible was also written. You can understand how fastruating it can be for people to see such statements made which devalue the truth of the compilation of the Qu'ranic Text.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
However, the Qur’an must in my opinion be evaluated for it's validity not just its reliability.
Of course, but part of the package of the validity is the reliability and retention of the text, we cant expect God to ask us to put trust in doubtful instructions.


Originally Posted by alapiana1
The Bible as I have mentioned might have transnational errors, but the spirit of what Jesus and the prophets say through it cannot be put out it is like trying to cover a candle with a box.
Well that's your assumption, you're assuming it cannot.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
It can only hide the light for a short time until the box bursts into flames. I believe although there is a night and day difference between the Bible and the Qur’an the Prophet Muhammad got a lot of things from the Old Testament. “The Qur’an came into writing form shortly after Muhammad’s death” (Handbook of today’s religions). All the surahs of the Qur’an had been recorded in writing before the Prophet’s death, and many Muslims had committed the whole Koran to memory. But when the surahs were dispersed among the people; and when in a battle which took place during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr- that is to say, within two years of the Prophet’s death- a large number of those who knew the whole Koran by heart were killed, a collection of the whole Koran was made and put in writing. ...The Koran has thus been very carefully preserved ) Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, trans., The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, New York: Mentor Books, n.d., p xxxviii).
What's your proof that he got stuff from the Old Testament?

Originally Posted by alapiana1
On the origin of the Qur’an, Guillaume comments: from the books of tradition we learn that the prophet was subject to ecstatic seizures. He is reported to have said that when inspiration came to him he felt as it were the painful sounding of a bell. Even in cold weather his forehead was bathed in sweat (Guillaume, op. cit., p 56). The prophet would have his wife wrap him in a veil and he even got visions in his sleep. The veiling of the head and the use of rhymed prose were marks of Arabian soothsayer, while the feeling of physical violence and compulsion, and outward appearance of possession were sometimes recorded by, or observed in, the Hebrew prophets. The Qur’an as we have it now is a record of what Muhammad said while in the state or states just mentioned. It is beyond doubt that his hearers recognized the symptoms of revelation; otherwise his obiter dicta which the literature purports to record would be included in the Qur’an (Guillaume, op. cit., p 56).
Lol do you know who you're quoting and what his sources are?

Originally Posted by alapiana1
Mow I know that Jesus sweat drops of blood in Gethsemane the night before His crucifixion but that is understandable. The things that I have been reading about the origins of the Qur’an make me wonder if it is true. If it is, I want to stay in the arms of Christ more than ever. You wanted me to back up what I said, so I am trying to do that. I hope you don't get angry at me for sharing my research.
I am not angry if you are sincere, this is the deal me and you are humans and we have a common goal, we both want to be close to God, we are both, if sincere, trying our best, I have no problem, but some people harden their hearts that's when the problem comes in.

Anyhow, some of the stuff you have been reading I wonder whether you know the reliability of. Anyhow, I'll leave it to you whether you feel comfortable in taking from random sources.

Eesa
Reply

Redeemed
04-25-2007, 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
I'm not sure how you are justifying or rationalising this statement to yourself but to a Muslim it seems pretty shocking to say "God wouldn't be anything without......".

May God guide those who sincerely seek truth to the truth ameen
What i mean is a person can only be as good as his word. Things wouldn't be different with God. I have a relationship with God He is my friend. I can talk this way.
Reply

Redeemed
04-25-2007, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
A scholar is not be taken as infallible rather his status comes from his accuracy, if a person makes many mistakes and the likes then his scholarly status is disputed. These people you refer to making accusations on the Qu'ran if they are making mistakes time and time again beyond the scope of just human errors and so forth then they are not scholars.

Anyhow, bring forth your doubts, you know there are self proclaimed scholars in Christianity who preach about this world being hell, does this mean its true? No we have to asess their claims.
That is true.



Well then there's alot of difference between your earlier statement about the compilation being similar! People wrote down what they remember him saying like the Bible was also written. You can understand how fastruating it can be for people to see such statements made which devalue the truth of the compilation of the Qu'ranic Text.
Yes, I can



Of course, but part of the package of the validity is the reliability and retention of the text, we cant expect God to ask us to put trust in doubtful instructions.
Not necessarily. Think about It.




Well that's your assumption, you're assuming it cannot.



What's your proof that he got stuff from the Old Testament?
Come on are you serious



Lol do you know who you're quoting and what his sources are?
Whose?



I am not angry if you are sincere, this is the deal me and you are humans and we have a common goal, we both want to be close to God, we are both, if sincere, trying our best, I have no problem, but some people harden their hearts that's when the problem comes in.

Anyhow, some of the stuff you have been reading I wonder whether you know the reliability of. Anyhow, I'll leave it to you whether you feel comfortable in taking from random sources.

Eesa
Yes, I am sincere
Reply

Redeemed
04-26-2007, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
This is a critical Truth that cannot be disputed. I think it is self evident who Christians worship and pray to. In the South there is a common saying among country people, "Lord, help me, Jesus!" and when something good happens they say, "Thank you, Jesus!"

In contrast, Jesus prayed to the One God - not to himself.
Matthew 14:23 And after he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into the mountain apart to pray: and when even was come, he was there alone.
Matthew 26:36-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go yonder and pray. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and sore troubled. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me. And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.

There is no question but that Jesus (pbuh) saw "the Father" as greater than himself and prayed to Him. I and all Muslims worship and pray to the same God, the One God, that Jesus (pbuh) prayed to. We Muslims also strive to submit our wills to Allah's (swt) Will just as Jesus (pbuh) indicated.
What would make you think that I don't pray to the God Jesus prayed to. Don't forget, He taught us how to pray "Our Father who hart in heaven..." If The Father I pray to is who Jesus told me to pray to, and the Father tells me to honor His son as Himself, because he that has seen Jesus as seen the Father, I am going to obey. What we do to Jesus we have done to the Father. God said this is my Son hear ye Him. We have been through this. Jesus is God's word. Man doesn't leave by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (that is Jesus). This is spiritual discerned teaching. You are trying to explain it in physical terms. It can't be reasoned out in the flesh. It takes faith to believe all the impossible things in the Qur’an as well. You certainly can’t explain how God always was and always will be. You can’t tell where the wind is coming from or where it is going. So is true of us flowerers of Jesus. We love the god that Jesus spoke of. If God can breath life into dust and create a human being, what is so hard to believe that Jesus is his word and that those who don’t receive it are rejecting truth. Truth is who Jesus is. We are so much like Pilot we ask what is truth and then we crucify it. We can infer from the Bible sthat to not receive Jesus as God's Son is to crucify Truth. There are non so blind as those who will not see.
Reply

Redeemed
04-26-2007, 02:53 AM
Spelling error Man doesn't live by bread alone... Jesu is the bread that has come down from heaven. Eat of this breas and you will live too.
Reply

Woodrow
04-26-2007, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
What would make you think that I don't pray to the God Jesus prayed to. Don't forget, He taught us how to pray "Our Father who hart in heaven..." If The Father I pray to is who Jesus told me to pray to, and the Father tells me to honor His son as Himself, because he that has seen Jesus as seen the Father, I am going to obey. What we do to Jesus we have done to the Father. God said this is my Son hear ye Him. We have been through this. Jesus is God's word. Man doesn't leave by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (that is Jesus). This is spiritual discerned teaching. You are trying to explain it in physical terms. It can't be reasoned out in the flesh. It takes faith to believe all the impossible things in the Qur’an as well. You certainly can’t explain how God always was and always will be. You can’t tell where the wind is coming from or where it is going. So is true of us flowerers of Jesus. We love the god that Jesus spoke of. If God can breath life into dust and create a human being, what is so hard to believe that Jesus is his word and that those who don’t receive it are rejecting truth. Truth is who Jesus is. We are so much like Pilot we ask what is truth and then we crucify it. We can infer from the Bible sthat to not receive Jesus as God's Son is to crucify Truth. There are non so blind as those who will not see.

There are non so blind as those who will not see.

That is true.

I can only hope that one day your Love of Isa(as) will set you free of the misguidance and allow you to Love Him(as) as we all should. The love of a wonderful thought is a barrier that will keep a person from worshiping the True Allah(swt). No matter how loving and how beautiful a prison is, if it stops a person from loving Allah(swt) and of putting all trust in Allah(swt) alone, it is still a cruel prison.

The Beauty, Justice and Mercy of Allah(swt) so Great that even the sin of shirk is forgiven when a person says the Shahadah and surrenders his life to serve Allah(swt). the greatest freedom and joy can only come when a person truly turns his life over to Allah(swt) and trusts the the will of Allah(swt) is all we need to follow.
Reply

Umar001
04-26-2007, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Yes, I am sincere
Just out of curiousity will you reply to any other part of the post?

:rollseyes
Reply

Umar001
05-03-2007, 10:48 PM
^upin incase it was forgotten.
Reply

Redeemed
05-04-2007, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Just out of curiousity will you reply to any other part of the post?

:rollseyes
I am not quite sure i know what you mean by this.
Reply

Redeemed
05-04-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
There are non so blind as those who will not see.

That is true.

I can only hope that one day your Love of Isa(as) will set you free of the misguidance and allow you to Love Him(as) as we all should. The love of a wonderful thought is a barrier that will keep a person from worshiping the True Allah(swt). No matter how loving and how beautiful a prison is, if it stops a person from loving Allah(swt) and of putting all trust in Allah(swt) alone, it is still a cruel prison.

The Beauty, Justice and Mercy of Allah(swt) so Great that even the sin of shirk is forgiven when a person says the Shahadah and surrenders his life to serve Allah(swt). the greatest freedom and joy can only come when a person truly turns his life over to Allah(swt) and trusts the the will of Allah(swt) is all we need to follow.
I am praying to the true Allah. I am praying to my Lord and God the way Jesus taught me too. Jesus knows better than me. I trust His leadership. Besides, The Spirit of the Lord bears witness with my spirit that I am saved. This is something I can't explain. It would be like trying to explain what a strawberry taste like to someone who as never had fruit in his life before. This is a poor analogy, because I can't think of anything better. Put it this way, I cannot deny the experience and witness in my spirit that my name is written in the book of life without denying God. There is no sin of shirk I need forgiveness for, especially when I am operating in all the light God has given me and living by faith in my creator. I am trying to reach those who don’t accept the atonement for sin that Allah has provided. Those are whom Jesus came to save. God has always sent a Savior for His people even before Jesus. Moses was a type of Savior that God sent to rescue His people from slavery. God had His people offer lambs as sin offering. There was a reason for that; it was a shadow of what was to come. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. It is written, “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin.”
As I said before, Jesus is not dead. He is ever making intercession for us now. If He doesn’t want me to believe this way, He will have to show me. So I will pray now: Oh Almighty God I beg you to reveal the truth about the prophet Jesus to us clearly so that we can see the vision clearly and run with it. I come against the spiritual wickedness in high places and bind every thought and imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I even do this through Jesus who leads us to the Lord of Lights and to the Almighty who is our creator who made heaven and earth. I say the Lord rebuke you Satan and your demon helpers because you are a liar and the Father of it. You can go to hell where you came from. Almighty God show yourself strong in the midst of this forum for this battle is not mine. This battle is yours and you are full of wisdom and mercy. Be exalted OH God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth and on this forum tonight.
Amen
Reply

Woodrow
05-04-2007, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I am praying to the true Allah. I am praying to my Lord and God the way Jesus taught me too. Jesus knows better than me. I trust His leadership. Besides, The Spirit of the Lord bears witness with my spirit that I am saved. This is something I can't explain. It would be like trying to explain what a strawberry taste like to someone who as never had fruit in his life before. This is a poor analogy, because I can't think of anything better. Put it this way, I cannot deny the experience and witness in my spirit that my name is written in the book of life without denying God. There is no sin of shirk I need forgiveness for, especially when I am operating in all the light God has given me and living by faith in my creator. I am trying to reach those who don’t accept the atonement for sin that Allah has provided. Those are whom Jesus came to save. God has always sent a Savior for His people even before Jesus. Moses was a type of Savior that God sent to rescue His people from slavery. God had His people offer lambs as sin offering. There was a reason for that; it was a shadow of what was to come. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. It is written, “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin.”
As I said before, Jesus is not dead. He is ever making intercession for us now. If He doesn’t want me to believe this way, He will have to show me. So I will pray now: Oh Almighty God I beg you to reveal the truth about the prophet Jesus to us clearly so that we can see the vision clearly and run with it. I come against the spiritual wickedness in high places and bind every thought and imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I even do this through Jesus who leads us to the Lord of Lights and to the Almighty who is our creator who made heaven and earth. I say the Lord rebuke you Satan and your demon helpers because you are a liar and the Father of it. You can go to hell where you came from. Almighty God show yourself strong in the midst of this forum for this battle is not mine. This battle is yours and you are full of wisdom and mercy. Be exalted OH God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth and on this forum tonight.
Amen
oodhu Billaah il-samee? il-?aleem min al-Shaytaan ir-rajeem

(I seek refuge with Allaah, the All-Hearing, All-Knowing, from the accursed Shaytaan).?

each and every Muslim feels very much the same towards Islam as the words you speak. Every muslim does feel the warm grasp of Allah(swt) a minimum of 5 times a day.

Here on this forum we fight shaytaan many times a day as people come and try to lead members away from the truth of Islam. We do know that Allah(swt) does protect us from those who would try to lead us to evil. The strength of Allah(swt) is infinitly greater than the evil forces of the cursed shaytaan.

We know in our hearts and in our prayers that Allah(swt) will keep Shaytaan from harming us Inshallah.

We trust with our entire hearts, minds and bodies that Allah(swt) shows us the straight path and by holding firm to the rope of Allah(swt) we will not stray.

alapiana1 your sincerity and your desire to serve Allah(swt) is not doubted.

May you one day open your eyes, come out of your sleep and truly love Isa(as) as you were meant to and discover the truth of worshiping only the one true Allah(swt)

to save yourselve from the Hellfire you must cast aside your sin of shirk and truly worship only the one God(swt)

You have been here and questioned enough to have seen the truth spoken to you, now it is your responsibility to follow through with what you have been shown.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-04-2007, 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
oodhu Billaah il-samee? il-?aleem min al-Shaytaan ir-rajeem

(I seek refuge with Allaah, the All-Hearing, All-Knowing, from the accursed Shaytaan).?

each and every Muslim feels very much the same towards Islam as the words you speak. Every muslim does feel the warm grasp of Allah(swt) a minimum of 5 times a day.

Here on this forum we fight shaytaan many times a day as people come and try to lead members away from the truth of Islam. We do know that Allah(swt) does protect us from those who would try to lead us to evil. The strength of Allah(swt) is infinitly greater than the evil forces of the cursed shaytaan.

We know in our hearts and in our prayers that Allah(swt) will keep Shaytaan from harming us Inshallah.
I agree with you, Br. Woodrow. It is a funny thing that those who try so hard to lead Muslims astray are at the same time witnessed to regarding the Oneness of Allah. To know the Truth and to reject it is worse than the initial ignorance.
Reply

Redeemed
05-04-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I agree with you, Br. Woodrow. It is a funny thing that those who try so hard to lead Muslims astray are at the same time witnessed to regarding the Oneness of Allah. To know the Truth and to reject it is worse than the initial ignorance.
If you cannot believe the way I do about the nature of Jesus, then believe in the works He did that you might know that He is in the Father and the Father in Him.
Reply

Woodrow
05-04-2007, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
If you cannot believe the way I do about the nature of Jesus, then believe in the works He did that you might know that He is in the Father and the Father in Him.
He is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUH). Allah(swt) did Miraculous works through all of the Prophets (PBUT) Isa(as) was a true servent of Allah(swt) and he is a wonderfull example of the things Allah(swt) does through His Prophets(PBUT)

In the Qur'an we list even more miracles Allah(swt) performed through Isa(as) than are named in the Bible. Remember Isa(as) is the most mentioned Prophet(PBUH) in the Qur'an and Many miracles were done through Him(as) by the Power of Allah(swt)
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
He is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUH). Allah(swt) did Miraculous works through all of the Prophets (PBUT) Isa(as) was a true servent of Allah(swt) and he is a wonderfull example of the things Allah(swt) does through His Prophets(PBUT)

In the Qur'an we list even more miracles Allah(swt) performed through Isa(as) than are named in the Bible. Remember Isa(as) is the most mentioned Prophet(PBUH) in the Qur'an and Many miracles were done through Him(as) by the Power of Allah(swt)
Are those extra miracles Jesus did you mentioned in the Qur'an? I don't know, but what you are saying sounds to me tantamount to a Captain of the ship or Admiral of the Military who is reduced to a first or second-class petty office then saying but he is no ordinary second-class petty officer. He is close to the captain and beloved among all on the ship; in fact, he is even over all the seaman apprentices and we have some of all the wonderful acts he has done to help others that no one else did. Oh, did I mention that the people refer to him more than any other second-class petty officer on board. Let me quote some things out of the Bible that you don't believe is valid, but at least you can't tell me or anyone else that I didn't share it with you. Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am he, you shall all likewise perish. It is written, ‘Kiss the Son lest His anger be kindle but a little and you perish from the way.”
Reply

Woodrow
05-05-2007, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Are those extra miracles Jesus did you mentioned in the Qur'an? I don't know, but what you are saying sounds to me tantamount to a Captain of the ship or Admiral of the Military who is reduced to a first or second-class petty office then saying but he is no ordinary second-class petty officer. He is close to the captain and beloved among all on the ship; in fact, he is even over all the seaman apprentices and we have some of all the wonderful acts he has done to help others that no one else did. Oh, did I mention that the people refer to him more than any other second-class petty officer on board. Let me quote some things out of the Bible that you don't believe is valid, but at least you can't tell me or anyone else that I didn't share it with you. Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am he, you shall all likewise perish. It is written, ‘Kiss the Son lest His anger be kindle but a little and you perish from the way.”
Are those extra miracles Jesus did you mentioned in the Qur'an?




Yes they are mentioned in the Qur'an.


Spoke when he was a Baby.

19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! S P C

19:28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" S P C
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" S P C
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; S P

19:31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; S P C
19:32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; S P C
19:33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! S P C

19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
A brief recount of some of the wonderous things He(as) did while on Earth.

5:109. One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." S P C
5:110. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' S P C

5:111. "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'". S P C
5:112. Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith." S P C

5:113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle." S P
5:114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." S P C

5:115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples." S P C
5:116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. S P C

5:117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. S P C
5:118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." S P C

5:119. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). S P C
5:120. To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things. S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am he, you shall all likewise perish. It is written, ‘Kiss the Son lest His anger be kindle but a little and you perish from the way.”


4:170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. S P C
4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
5:73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. S P
5:74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. S P
5:75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! S P C

5:76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." S P
5:77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
43:57. When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)! S P C

43:58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. S P
43:59. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. S P C
43:60. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth. S P C

43:61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. S P C
43:62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed. S P
43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. S P C

43:64. "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way." S P C
43:65. But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day! S P


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
5:114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)." S P C

5:115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples." S P C
5:116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. S P C

5:117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. S P C
5:118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." S P C

5:119. Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires). S P C
5:120. To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things. S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
It still is not too late for you to awaken and understand.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-05-2007, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Let me quote some things out of the Bible that you don't believe is valid, but at least you can't tell me or anyone else that I didn't share it with you. Jesus said, “Unless you believe that I am he, you shall all likewise perish. It is written, ‘Kiss the Son lest His anger be kindle but a little and you perish from the way.”
What book/chapter and verse? I would like to read the context.
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What book/chapter and verse? I would like to read the context.
Ps. 2:12
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What book/chapter and verse? I would like to read the context.
It is written, "You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall all die in your sins. Jn 8:23-24
Luke 13 "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish."
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow



Yes they are mentioned in the Qur'an.


Spoke when he was a Baby.



A brief recount of some of the wonderous things He(as) did while on Earth.













It still is not too late for you to awaken and understand.
Thank you for your kind words and for sharing the Qur'an with me. I too believe in my heart that it is not too late for either of us. I believe wherever there is life, there is hope. It is written, " I am the light of the worls; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Reply

Woodrow
05-05-2007, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Ps. 2:12
I must be doing something wrong. In my Bible I only find psalms 2 going up to verse 9


I'll look in another version:

OK found it on line in several versions

NASB: Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (NASB ©1995)

GWT: Kiss the Son, or he will become angry and you will die on your way because his anger will burst into flames. Blessed is everyone who takes refuge in him. (GOD'S WORD®)

KJV: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.



BBE: For fear that he may be angry, causing destruction to come on you, because he is quickly moved to wrath. Happy are all those who put their faith in him.



JPS: Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. Happy are all they that take refuge in Him.



WEB: Give sincere homage, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.

YLT: Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!


Interesting. Are all Bibles the Same? How did the first three manage to get it to refer to The Son? The last 4 versions seem to be referring to God(swt) which would be more in line with the Qur'an and appear to be closer to the truth.

It is differences like this that cause me to have doubt in the validity of the Bible. Those are not just translation errors. There had to be some manipulation going on to get Son out of the Hebrew.
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I must be doing something wrong. In my Bible I only find psalms 2 going up to verse 9
Good question I will have to look into that. If Ps 2 in your Bible only goes up to 9, you need a new Bible. To be honest with you some translations are better than others and obviously there is manipulation going on. That is why I trust some translations better than others. I will have to look that up in Hebrew.
Peace

I'll look in another version:

OK found it on line in several versions

NASB: Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (NASB ©1995)

GWT: Kiss the Son, or he will become angry and you will die on your way because his anger will burst into flames. Blessed is everyone who takes refuge in him. (GOD'S WORD®)

KJV: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.



BBE: For fear that he may be angry, causing destruction to come on you, because he is quickly moved to wrath. Happy are all those who put their faith in him.



JPS: Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. Happy are all they that take refuge in Him.



WEB: Give sincere homage, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.

YLT: Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!


Interesting. Are all Bibles the Same? How did the first three manage to get it to refer to The Son? The last 4 versions seem to be referring to God(swt) which would be more in line with the Qur'an and appear to be closer to the truth.

It is differences like this that cause me to have doubt in the validity of the Bible. Those are not just translation errors. There had to be some manipulation going on to get Son out of the Hebrew.
Good question I will have to look into that. If Ps 2 in your Bible only goes up to 9, you need a new Bible. To be honest with you some translations are better than others and obviously there is manipulation going on. That is why I trust some translations better than others. I will have to look that up in Hebrew.
Peace
Reply

Woodrow
05-05-2007, 06:12 AM
Peace to you also,

The many various translations of the Bible have caused much confusion. Translation really are not accurate. this is another reason I came to accept the authenticity of the Qur'an. It is always in the same language. there are translations that do serve as useful guides until one learns Arabic, but even the best translations are just approximations as to what the Arabic means.

remember most of the Bible was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. both of those are very similar to Arabic and like Arabic many of the words have no English Equivalents so all translations are just Approximations.

What is funny the KJV translated into Arabic has very little in common with the English KJV although I have seen non-arabic Evangelicals give the Arabic KJV to people in Mid Eastern countries, believing they were telling the people
the same thing the English KJV. It usually brings forth an outrage.

Here are the first few lines of the KJV Genesis 1 in Arabic:

في البدء خلق الله السموات والارض.
2 وكانت الارض خربة وخالية وعلى وجه الغمر ظلمة وروح الله يرف على وجه المياه.
3 وقال الله ليكن نور فكان نور.
4 وراى الله النور انه حسن.وفصل الله بين النور والظلمة.
5 ودعا الله النور نهارا والظلمة دعاها ليلا.وكان مساء وكان صباح يوما واحدا
6 وقال الله ليكن جلد في وسط المياه.وليكن فاصلا بين مياه ومياه.
7 فعمل الله الجلد وفصل بين المياه التي تحت الجلد والمياه التي فوق الجلد.وكان كذلك.
8 ودعا الله الجلد سماء.وكان مساء وكان صباح يوما ثانيا
9 وقال الله لتجتمع المياه تحت السماء الى مكان واحد ولتظهر اليابسة.وكان كذلك.
10 ودعا الله اليابسة ارضا.ومجتمع المياه دعاه بحارا.ورأى الله ذلك انه حسن.
11 وقال الله لتنبت الارض عشبا وبقلا يبزر بزرا وشجرا ذا ثمر يعمل ثمرا كجنسه بزره فيه على الارض.وكان كذلك.
12 فاخرجت الارض عشبا وبقلا يبزر بزرا كجنسه وشجرا يعمل ثمرا بزره فيه كجنسه.ورأى الله ذلك انه حسن.
وكان مساء وكان صباح يوما ثال13





Note that the word Allah(swt) is used quite often. ( الله )


Now look what happens if you translate the Arabic back into English:


You get this:

I start God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The land was in ruins and free immersion and in the bleak and the spirit of God blink in the water. 3, and God said not to Nour was Nour. 4, and felt that God Noor Hassan. God and the separation between light and darkness. 5 God called the light day and the darkness he called upon at night. The evening was the morning one day 6, and said God was flogged in the middle of the water. Let the dividing line between drinking and drinking. 7 The work of God skin and the separation between water under the skin and water over the skin. The well. 8 and called God skin sky. It was evening and the morning of the second day 9 and God said to meet the water under the sky into one place and the dry land appear. The well. 10 God called dry land. Community advocates and water sailors. And God, it felt good. 11 and God said to germinate and land Grassier Bagla Ibezer Bozora Hajra, a comrade Kjennseh Pumpkinseed fruitful working on the ground. The well. 12 pushed land Grassier and Bagla Ibezer Bozora Kjennseh Hajra and fruitful work which Kjennseh Pumpkinseed. And God, it felt good. 13 and the evening was the third day morning


Needless to say, it confuses most Arabic readers and makes very little sense.

I rest my case that the Bible in a translation is not The word of God(swt)
Reply

NoName55
05-05-2007, 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Good question I will have to look into that. If Ps 2 in your Bible only goes up to 9, you need a new Bible. To be honest with you some translations are better than others and obviously there is manipulation going on. That is why I trust some translations better than others. I will have to look that up in Hebrew.
Peace
I will have to look that up in Hebrew.
here you go!


נַשְּׁקוּ-בַר, פֶּן-יֶאֱנַף וְתֹאבְדוּ דֶרֶךְ-- כִּי-יִבְעַר כִּמְעַט אַפּוֹ:
אַשְׁרֵי, כָּל-חוֹסֵי בוֹ.
Reply

Kashnowe
05-05-2007, 02:25 PM
isn't it somewhat of a conundrum that certain languages can not translate into eachother....i mean say if i said and idiomatic expression in english like 'spill the beans' or 'let the cat out of the bag' i'm so sure someone educated and fluent in arabic could translate that, not word for word, but with arabic words conveying the same meaning.

so with the differences in grammar between languages and word usage it is still possible for someone bright enough to translate things clearly. now i understand that someone can't or might not know every idiomatic expression or the fact that a griddle cake is the same as a pan cake.....but nowadays i thin kit is more than possible for educated fluent arabic/english speakers to translate the quran into english without losing any of the meanings. there has got to be a way to express every emotion and name every thing on earth spoken about in arabic in some way in english.

anyways if you read all of the versions of the bible you would still get the same overall message.
Reply

Woodrow
05-05-2007, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
isn't it somewhat of a conundrum that certain languages can not translate into eachother....i mean say if i said and idiomatic expression in english like 'spill the beans' or 'let the cat out of the bag' i'm so sure someone educated and fluent in arabic could translate that, not word for word, but with arabic words conveying the same meaning.

so with the differences in grammar between languages and word usage it is still possible for someone bright enough to translate things clearly. now i understand that someone can't or might not know every idiomatic expression or the fact that a griddle cake is the same as a pan cake.....but nowadays i thin kit is more than possible for educated fluent arabic/english speakers to translate the quran into english without losing any of the meanings. there has got to be a way to express every emotion and name every thing on earth spoken about in arabic in some way in english.

anyways if you read all of the versions of the bible you would still get the same overall message.
This is going a little off topic, but I believe your question is related to the topic, as language is one of the things that are leading to all the confusion.

Language is very remarkable, but it is not as exact as we like to think it is. the English language contains so many connotations that in any English sentence it is doubtful that any 2 people ever see the same meaning.

English is best understood when the reader has verbal rather than visual connotations. Arabic on the other hand is a language of imagery and sound patterns.

Speaking Arabic is similar to drawing a picture of a landscape, English is trying to tell what the landscape looks like.

It is really a miracle that there is even any communication between people of different languages. translations are very inaccurate and the only way to get the true meaning is to understand the language it is wrtten in. The bible will never be understood until it is found in it's entirety in Hebrew and Aramaic and read by people that know the languages.

The Qur'an can not be properly understood except in Arabic
Reply

Trumble
05-05-2007, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The bible will never be understood until it is found in it's entirety in Hebrew and Aramaic and read by people that know the languages.
Which parts have not been 'found' in those languages, apart obviously from the majority of the NT that was written in Greek?
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
This is going a little off topic, but I believe your question is related to the topic, as language is one of the things that are leading to all the confusion.

Language is very remarkable, but it is not as exact as we like to think it is. the English language contains so many connotations that in any English sentence it is doubtful that any 2 people ever see the same meaning.

English is best understood when the reader has verbal rather than visual connotations. Arabic on the other hand is a language of imagery and sound patterns.

Speaking Arabic is similar to drawing a picture of a landscape, English is trying to tell what the landscape looks like.

It is really a miracle that there is even any communication between people of different languages. translations are very inaccurate and the only way to get the true meaning is to understand the language it is wrtten in. The bible will never be understood until it is found in it's entirety in Hebrew and Aramaic and read by people that know the languages.

The Qur'an can not be properly understood except in Arabic
While your on that note I might add that I did look up "Kiss the the Son lest ye perish..." in Hebrew and the word is meant to be son or heir to the throne.
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 04:36 PM
I agree with my pastor who said there are divine truths that cannot be fully understood within our time-space frame reference. In other words, our time-space use of logic cannot reduce God's oneness and threeness into rational terms. That is what Muslims try to do when they attempt to explain away the nature of God according to the Bible. They say it is impossible for Jesus to be the Mighty God and the Word of God or where even Jesus refers to himself as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit (Isa, 9:6, Gal.2:20, John 14:23). God has given us time-space logic for our wise use, but trying to force God into our framework has led to heresies such as the Jehovah's Witness that only acknowledge Jesus as God's Son and the Father as the only true God or the Muslims that say we worship three gods. God can defy logic. He does when there are miracles; moreover, we would be foolish to believe that the One who created time and space cannot function outside of that framework. Jesus was without sin. There has never been any body in this world in the past, present or future that that can be said about. Just because something comes from a reliable source, that in it self does not make it true, and just because some has been tempered with does mean that it can’t be used as evidence because there are always the original texts to compare these manipulations to. If it were just one or two verses in the Bible that say Jesus is the Son of God, then you would have something, But the Bible is replete with who Jesus is and constantly alludes to His deity. “If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink. He that believes in me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” Jn. 7:37 He also said, you neither know me, nor my Father: if you had known me, you should have known my Father also. It is clear to me according to the Bible. Jesus is saying that no one has a relationship with the Creator outside of Himself and no one can even come to Christ unless Allah draws him. For it is written all things were made by Him (JESUS) and for Him.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-05-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
It is written, "You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall all die in your sins. Jn 8:23-24
Luke 13 "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish."
Yes, I understand the Christian point of view on salvation which I rejected in 1982. My concept of God is different now than what it was then and I choose to believe what the Quran says about Jesus (pbuh) instead of the Christian doctrine of Jesus (pbuh) being at the same time God and the Son of God. Bottom line is that I reject the Bible and I accept the Quran as the Word of God. I am sure that you are of the opposing perspective.

The central figure in Christianity is obviously Jesus (pbuh). Even though I revere both Muhammad and Jesus along with all of the other prophets (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc.) the central being to me, and according to Islam, is Allah - the One God. This is the same God that talked to Adam in the Garden of Eden, talked to Moses in the burning bush, Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane, etc. Exodus 3:15-17 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, hath appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and [seen] that which is done to you in Egypt: and I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

It is a matter of faith. Christians put their faith in Jesus (pbuh) being the "Son of God", his supposed death on the cross and his resurrection for their salvation. Muslims put their faith in believing that there is One God (Allah) and worshipping Him alone. We follow Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the pattern for our lives and to know how to worship Allah.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-05-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Jesus is saying that no one has a relationship with the Creator outside of Himself and no one can even come to Christ unless Allah draws him. For it is written all things were made by Him (JESUS) and for Him.
For your purposes and according to Christianity, "The Father" should be substituted for "Allah" in this statement. Allah refers to the One God (without parent, or offspring, or equal or partner) Who created all that has been created - not Jesus!
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
For your purposes and according to Christianity, "The Father" should be substituted for "Allah" in this statement. Allah refers to the One God (without parent, or offspring, or equal or partner) Who created all that has been created - not Jesus!
If you read it a little more carefully, you will notice that am referring to the Father as Allah and not Jesus.
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 05:08 PM
Jesus said, "I know that you are Abraham's seed; but you seek to kill me, because my word has found no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father; and you do that which you have seen with your father."
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Redeemed
05-05-2007, 05:19 PM
Do not think, Jesus said, that I will accuse you to (Allah) Father: there is one that will accuse you even Moses... (and the true prophets) for he wrote of me. But if you don't believe his writings, how shall you believe mine? I am come in my Father's name and you receive me not: if another shall come, in his own name, him you will receive"
Reply

MustafaMc
05-05-2007, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
If you read it a little more carefully, you will notice that am referring to the Father as Allah and not Jesus.
You were referring to Jesus (pbuh) as the Creator and I was correcting your error because Allah is the Creator. As you said - "For it is written all things were made by Him (JESUS) and for Him."

I object to the title "The Father" being used synonymously for Allah. The reason being is that Father implies having a Son which Allah does not have as shown in Quran 112:1-4 Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient; He begets not, nor is He begotten; and there is none comparable to Him. So please do not disrespect Allah by using the term The Father - the two are not the same.
Reply

Woodrow
05-05-2007, 08:14 PM
Shirk is a very serious sin. Even tho you feel your intentions are just. Your words are seen as an attempt to mislead us into eternal hellfire.
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You were referring to Jesus (pbuh) as the Creator and I was correcting your error because Allah is the Creator. As you said - "For it is written all things were made by Him (JESUS) and for Him."

I object to the title "The Father" being used synonymously for Allah. The reason being is that Father implies having a Son which Allah does not have as shown in Quran 112:1-4 Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient; He begets not, nor is He begotten; and there is none comparable to Him. So please do not disrespect Allah by using the term The Father - the two are not the same.
Good point and point taken
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Shirk is a very serious sin. Even tho you feel your intentions are just. Your words are seen as an attempt to mislead us into eternal hellfire.
I am not really saying anything different than the first day I arrived on this website forum, and all Christians would agree with what I believe although they might have their own style of presenting it. The reason for this is because these are not my words. Jesus said, ""For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosever will lose his life for my sake, (and the gospel) the same shall save it." Your vision is not clear brother; it is the opposite of what you think. I am attempting to deliver from eternal ****ation and hellfire not lead to it. You are attempting to save your life by following or submitting to Islam, but Jesus said take up you cross and follow me and lose your life for me and you will save it. If we both continue till the end as is, one of us are going to be confronted with spiritual negligence. It is written, "We know our record is true." The whole point that Jesus was trying to make to His disciples was in what way you honor Him you honor God. I am not trying to shirk anyone, but if you hear and receive me; you receive Him who sent me (Jesus) to you. If you receive Him, you receive the Almighty. This is not me speaking; This is the Lord! If you persist in this, you will suddenly be destroyed and that without remedy. Walk in the light while it is day, because the night is coming...
Reply

NoName55
05-05-2007, 10:09 PM
You are delusional, I am trying my utmost not to post (to keep my word about taking a break from posting) but you keep tempting me.

None of your lying mistranslations and manipulations of The Psalms are going to convince any true believer to apostate.

So please help me keep my word by refraining from posting rubbish, for if you don't post it then there will be no need to refute it on the part of the Believers. Thanks!

Please note that there are people, on this forum, who actually know Hebrew so your lies will be found out, then what is the point in posting those here? Why not find someplace, entirely populated by ignorant people and be their chief scholar?
Reply

snakelegs
05-05-2007, 10:12 PM
alpiana,
i have a question for you.

אתה מדבר עברית????????
Reply

Redeemed
05-05-2007, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
here you go!


נַשְּׁקוּ-בַר, פֶּן-יֶאֱנַף וְתֹאבְדוּ דֶרֶךְ-- כִּי-יִבְעַר כִּמְעַט אַפּוֹ:
אַשְׁרֵי, כָּל-חוֹסֵי בוֹ.
I looked this up כָּל and I am not lying. I could be mistaken sometimes, but not lying. I have never lied on this forum or attacked your character, so Please don't do it to me. Treat people the way you want to be treated. כָּל This refers to the following: bar (Chald.), bar; corresp. to 1121; a son, grandson, etc.; -X old. son.
כָּל bar, bar; borrowed (as a title) from 1247; the heir (apparent to the throne);- son I also looked it up in Greek and son means deity there. I know this is not going cause you to shirk, but I simply won't shirk either.
peace
Reply

NoName55
05-05-2007, 10:54 PM
My appologies for my bad manners! (I was under the impression that I was being ignored therefore I formed the wrong opinion of you)
I could be mistaken sometimes, but not lying
I'll go along with this explanation for the mistranslations

Ma'asalaama
Reply

جوري
05-05-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
This is not me speaking; This is the Lord! ...
Hmmmmmmm.. this is very curious... and a bit disconcerting... People who think themselves the lord should either be working in a monastery or hermitage somehwere-- or receiving Seroquel in high dosages-- they shouldn't be on a forum or governing the free world for that matter-- (Bush)
Reply

snakelegs
05-05-2007, 11:00 PM
alapiana,

האם אתה יודע לקרוא עברית?
Reply

MustafaMc
05-05-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I am not trying to shirk anyone, but if you hear and receive me; you receive Him who sent me (Jesus) to you. If you receive Him, you receive the Almighty. This is not me speaking; This is the Lord! If you persist in this, you will suddenly be destroyed and that without remedy. Walk in the light while it is day, because the night is coming...
Shirk is polytheism and it is to worship others along with Allah (The Noble Quran glossary). Yes, from my perspective Christians commit shirk because they worship and equate Jesus (pbuh) with Allah. Their salvation is dependent upon believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died on the cross for their sins, and that he was raised from the dead. The focus of Christianity, as I stated before, is clearly on Jesus instead of on Allah - the very definition of shirk.

Allah knows best.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."
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Woodrow
05-05-2007, 11:15 PM
Going back to a week ago, Sister Muslim Woman summed up what our view of a Christian is. she said it the best of what i have seen. If a Person truly follows Isa(as) and his teachings the only logical end is they will become a Muslim. Islam is the Christianity that Isa(as) tried to show the people.

Muslims are those who do follow Isa(as) and do submit to the will of Allah(swt).




Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

useful links:


SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY

by Dr. Zakir Naik


http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm


CONCLUSION

(a) If Christian is a person who follows the teachings of Christ (pbuh) and not one who worships Christ (pbuh). (We are more Christian than the Christians themselves) :)



(b) Muslim is a person who submits his will to Allah ( God Almighty )

Jesus (pbuh) said, "not my will but thy will be done." i.e. Muslim. John 5:30


http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...milarities.htm


Reply

snakelegs
05-05-2007, 11:47 PM
i hope this will lay this idiot nonesense to its final resting place.
Kiss the Son lest His anger be kindle but a little and you perish from the way.”
While your on that note I might add that I did look up "Kiss the the Son lest ye perish..." in Hebrew and the word is meant to be son or heir to the throne
psalm 2:12
pay homage in good faith
last He be angered, and your way be doomed
in the mere flash of His anger
happy are all who take refuge in him.
-JPS hebrew-english tanakh

no "son". no "kiss".
good bye.
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i hope this will lay this idiot nonesense to its final resting place.




psalm 2:12
pay homage in good faith
last He be angered, and your way be doomed
in the mere flash of His anger
happy are all who take refuge in him.
-JPS hebrew-english tanakh

no "son". no "kiss".
good bye.
In defense of alapiana, I believe he made an honest error. It is very difficult to find any true Hebrew Versions of the Bible. Most of the translations are taken from books in the 1800s. many people translated the KJV into Hebrew in an attempt to show what the KJV would be like in Hebrew. Those old texts are now often used as being the Hebrew version. Since they were translated from the KJV it is only natural they would be similar to the KJV when translated back into English. Especially if the translator is looking to make them match the KJV

Most People use Strong's concordance, which was written in 1890. It is not from the Original Hebrew, It is of matching Hebrew and Greek Equivilants for the English words in the KJV.

Backwards engineering.

It is very doubtful anyone will find any actual Hebrew of the OT as it appears in the Bible. The closest will be the Tanakh of the Hebrews and in more than one place have our Jewish Members noted that the OT does not match the Tanakh.
Reply

snakelegs
05-06-2007, 01:14 AM
woodrow,
i will confess this person irritates me. :raging:
i think it's very arrogant to come to an islamic forum and try to convert muslims to christianity. he has done this from the beginning and is still blatantly doing this.
at one point he said he was going to look up the hebrew, which to me, implied that he knew hebrew. so i asked him in hebrew if he did and he did not have the decency to admit that he did not.
we have many christian members who believe strongly, but they have enough decency not to promote their religion and respect the rules of the forum. they explain their religion, and they correct mistakes and answer questions. (= they're cool).
end of rant. :enough!:
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
My appologies for my bad manners! (I was under the impression that I was being ignored therefore I formed the wrong opinion of you)
I'll go along with this explanation for the mistranslations

Ma'asalaama
Peace to you, I am not ignoring you, and thank you for your apology which is totally accepted.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
woodrow,
i will confess this person irritates me. :raging:
i think it's very arrogant to come to an islamic forum and try to convert muslims to christianity. he has done this from the beginning and is still blatantly doing this.
at one point he said he was going to look up the hebrew, which to me, implied that he knew hebrew. so i asked him in hebrew if he did and he did not have the decency to admit that he did not.
we have many christian members who believe strongly, but they have enough decency not to promote their religion and respect the rules of the forum. they explain their religion, and they correct mistakes and answer questions. (= they're cool).
end of rant. :enough!:
I never said that I knew Hebrew, and I did, however, look up the word in question from a dictionary. You are mad at me because you responded to me in Hebrew, and I didn't answer you. How could I, if I don't know Hebrew? I am not trying to promote any religion. Religion is what nailed Jesus to the cross. I want to see Jesus get the reward of His suffering. Besides, you don’t submit to Allah or Jesus. You are spiritually lost to both Christians and Muslims in your present state so why do you care so much about the way one promotes what he believes is truth?
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Hmmmmmmm.. this is very curious... and a bit disconcerting... People who think themselves the lord should either be working in a monastery or hermitage somehwere-- or receiving Seroquel in high dosages-- they shouldn't be on a forum or governing the free world for that matter-- (Bush)
What i meant was I was quoting Jesus words from the Bible. Nevertheless, God is not dead, and he can still speak through people today. By the way, you can tell more about a person from what they say about others than what others say about them.
Reply

جوري
05-06-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
What i meant was I was quoting Jesus words from the Bible. Nevertheless, God is not dead, and he can still speak through people today. By the way, you can tell more about a person from what they say about others than what others say about them.
Really MR. is your opinion a scientific fact?-- No G-D is not dead-- we agree on that much!


اللّهُ لاَ إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاء وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ {255}
[Pickthal 2:255] Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

That is G-D creator of heaven and earth as well as Jesus (PBUH) the man you take for a G-D!

peace
Reply

snakelegs
05-06-2007, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I never said that I knew Hebrew, and I did, however, look up the word in question from a dictionary. You are mad at me because you responded to me in Hebrew, and I didn't answer you. How could I, if I don't know Hebrew? I am not trying to promote any religion. Religion is what nailed Jesus to the cross. I want to see Jesus get the reward of His suffering. Besides, you don’t submit to Allah or Jesus. You are spiritually lost to both Christians and Muslims in your present state so why do you care so much about the way one promotes what he believes is truth?
no, i am irritated because you do nothing but preach.
i have a low tolerance for preaching. on an islamic site, i expect islamic preaching, so i accept that. if i was interested in christian preaching, why wouldn't i go to a christian forum? why would you come to an islamic forum strictly in order to try to convert muslims? don't you think they could find out about christianity easily enough on other sites?
how do you know that i do not believe in allah?
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, i am irritated because you do nothing but preach.
i have a low tolerance for preaching. on an islamic site, i expect islamic preaching, so i accept that. if i was interested in christian preaching, why wouldn't i go to a christian forum? why would you come to an islamic forum strictly in order to try to convert muslims? don't you think they could find out about christianity easily enough on other sites?
how do you know that i do not believe in allah?
Snakelegs it is interesting to see your views. Those that preach are seldom aware of the reverse effects preaching has. Yes, the pupose of this forum is to teach the truth of Islam and I will not deny that it is our desire to have people revert to Islam. But, that must always be a persons choice and after enough effort so that it is an informed choice and not based on the charisma of a person. we as Muslims will welcome anyone into our home and we will do our best to explain to them our beliefs. However, we will not enter into another persons home and speak against their belief nor express ours, unless asked to do so.


We do allow differences of opinion here. These differences and our willingness to allow them to be discussed on even an Islamic forum is one of the beauties of Islam.

Every Muslim is a Muslim and remains a Muslim because they do question and do seek verification of the truth.

We do have a responsibility to try to show the truth to those with erroneous beliefs. We do not know what a person's errors are until they say them. It is only then can we address the errors and present to them what we know to be the truth.

The choice is up to them to either accept what we say or to ignore it. But, the main issue is that we know the person is doing so out of their own choice and with awareness of what we believe to be true.

We will not compel anyone to accept Islam, we can only freely offer it as a gift.

Although we do not permit a person to try to proselytize there beliefs on this forum, it is a difficult line to define. Many people do not know how to express their words in a non invasive manner. some understanding has to be allowed for that and for that reason we do have this section. Hopefully we can always keep it as fair comparissions.

It is true this is an Islamic forum and people do come here to learn about Islam, if not to revert, at least to judge for themselves if the stereo types are true.

It is true that if a person does desire to learn about other belifs, there are many sites available for that.
Reply

snakelegs
05-06-2007, 03:31 AM
woodrow,
i will shut up on this subject, altho i think this person has crossed that line many times.
i could not resist sticking my nose in when he was twisting the psalm to prove the "truth" of his religion.
i am out of here. carry on. :hiding:
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
woodrow,
i will shut up on this subject, altho i think this person has crossed that line many times.
i could not resist sticking my nose in when he was twisting the psalm to prove the "truth" of his religion.
i am out of here. carry on. :hiding:
Your views are appreciated.


I do not agree with his interpretation of that particular psalm. but that is of no real concern as I do not view the source for the psalm to be valid and that we really do not know if it was a true revelation or a fabrication.
Reply

Kashnowe
05-06-2007, 04:47 AM
p1:the grass is green

p2:the grass is red

p1:clearly the grass is green. i know because i am see it.

p2: i am looking at the same grass and it is red.

p1: i know i am correct. you must be color blind!

p2:it is you who are colorblind. the grass is red.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, i am irritated because you do nothing but preach.
i have a low tolerance for preaching. on an islamic site, i expect islamic preaching, so i accept that. if i was interested in christian preaching, why wouldn't i go to a christian forum? why would you come to an islamic forum strictly in order to try to convert muslims? don't you think they could find out about christianity easily enough on other sites?
how do you know that i do not believe in allah?
I didn't say you didn't believe in Allah. It is written, "The devils believe in God; they fear and Tremble" too. Oh long will you halt between two opinions if you believe in God serve Him. Your having a low tolerance for preaching is not my problem. I am to obey and submit to God not man.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 05:53 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Your views are appreciated.


I do not agree with his interpretation of that particular psalm. but that is of no real concern as I do not view the source for the psalm to be valid and that we really do not know if it was a true revelation or a fabrication.
Hold on here. You mean to tell me you don't believe the Psalms are valid or you don't believe the part about kissing the son as being the Son or is it both? I thought it was one of your first prayers to confess that you would obey the books which include the Psalms.
PS. Remember, that Jesus didn't come to bring peace; He came to divide mother against daughter fathers against sons. He said a man's foes shall be they of his own house.
I have been accused of so many things, and I despise the stigma and shame that has been associated with me on this forum. It is written, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church of which I am a part of, and the violent take by force. I love the Almighty, and I am full of zeal for the things of God, and I want the best for everyone on this forum even if you consider me the enemy.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 06:10 AM
I would never come into your home and speak against your religion, as you seem to have implied I would. No one lives in or on this public forum. If I come across as preaching, just preach back. I believe that the word of God will not return void. If I get accused for sharing Scripture, it makes me think I am on to something, and it needs to be finished.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
p1:the grass is green

p2:the grass is red

p1:clearly the grass is green. i know because i am see it.

p2: i am looking at the same grass and it is red.

p1: i know i am correct. you must be color blind!

p2:it is you who are colorblind. the grass is red.
The grass is green on Earth
and red on Mars
Reply

Malaikah
05-06-2007, 07:29 AM
The grass has no colour- it is only green because our eyes see it that way.:rollseyes
Reply

MustafaMc
05-06-2007, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I thought it was one of your first prayers to confess that you would obey the books which include the Psalms.
You are badly mistaken here. There are certain fundamental beliefs in Islam - one of which is the Books of Allah, but we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 2:177 Righteousness is not whether you turn your face towards East or West; but the righteousness is to believe in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Books and the Prophets, and to spend wealth out of love for Him on relatives, orphans, helpless, needy travellers, those who ask for and on the redemption of captives; and to establish Salah (prayers), to pay Zakah (alms), to fulfill promises when made, to be steadfast in distress, in adversity, and at the time of war. These people are the truthful and these are the pious.

To define what those books are....

Quran 3:84 O Prophet, say: "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants; and in that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb; we do not discriminate any one of them, and to Allah do we submit in Islam."

We believe that the Books revealed to Prophets Moses, David, and Jesus (pbut) have been changed and are no longer valid sources of divine revelation and NO we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah.

Quran 3:187 When Allah made the covenant with those who were given the Book, they were asked to spread the teachings of the Book to mankind and not to conceal them; but they cast it behind their backs and sold them for a petty price. What a bad bargain they made!

Regarding my opinion of those engaged in proselytizing Muslims...

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quoting you from earlier, So I will pray now: Oh Almighty God I beg you to reveal the truth about the prophet ??? Jesus to us clearly so that we can see the vision clearly and run with it. I come against the spiritual wickedness in high places and bind every thought and imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I even do this through Jesus who leads us to the Lord of Lights and to the Almighty who is our creator who made heaven and earth. I say the Lord rebuke you Satan and your demon helpers because you are a liar and the Father of it. You can go to hell where you came from. Almighty God show yourself strong in the midst of this forum for this battle is not mine. This battle is yours and you are full of wisdom and mercy. Be exalted OH God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth and on this forum tonight.
Amen

Are you sure this was not a prayer by Pope Urban II in 1095 before the 1st Crusade?
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
The grass has no colour- it is only green because our eyes see it that way.:rollseyes
Grass is green because it is envious of trees which are much taller and don't get stepped on like grass does. Trees don't get mowed every week in the summertime and sprayed with Weed-be-gone. No, not really I think it is beacause it is filled with chlorophyll not cholroform. If God so clothes the grass which is here today and gone tomorrow, think of how much He cares for us.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You are badly mistaken here. There are certain fundamental beliefs in Islam - one of which is the Books of Allah, but we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 2:177 Righteousness is not whether you turn your face towards East or West; but the righteousness is to believe in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Books and the Prophets, and to spend wealth out of love for Him on relatives, orphans, helpless, needy travellers, those who ask for and on the redemption of captives; and to establish Salah (prayers), to pay Zakah (alms), to fulfill promises when made, to be steadfast in distress, in adversity, and at the time of war. These people are the truthful and these are the pious.

To define what those books are....

Quran 3:84 O Prophet, say: "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants; and in that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb; we do not discriminate any one of them, and to Allah do we submit in Islam."

We believe that the Books revealed to Prophets Moses, David, and Jesus (pbut) have been changed and are no longer valid sources of divine revelation and NO we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah.

Quran 3:187 When Allah made the covenant with those who were given the Book, they were asked to spread the teachings of the Book to mankind and not to conceal them; but they cast it behind their backs and sold them for a petty price. What a bad bargain they made!

Regarding my opinion of those engaged in proselytizing Muslims...

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quoting you from earlier, So I will pray now: Oh Almighty God I beg you to reveal the truth about the prophet ??? Jesus to us clearly so that we can see the vision clearly and run with it. I come against the spiritual wickedness in high places and bind every thought and imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I even do this through Jesus who leads us to the Lord of Lights and to the Almighty who is our creator who made heaven and earth. I say the Lord rebuke you Satan and your demon helpers because you are a liar and the Father of it. You can go to hell where you came from. Almighty God show yourself strong in the midst of this forum for this battle is not mine. This battle is yours and you are full of wisdom and mercy. Be exalted OH God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth and on this forum tonight.
Amen

Are you sure this was not a prayer by Pope Urban II in 1095 before the 1st Crusade?
I am talking about spiritual battles. Christians have to deal with that!
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Hold on here. You mean to tell me you don't believe the Psalms are valid or you don't believe the part about kissing the son as being the Son or is it both? I thought it was one of your first prayers to confess that you would obey the books which include the Psalms.
PS. Remember, that Jesus didn't come to bring peace; He came to divide mother against daughter fathers against sons. He said a man's foes shall be they of his own house.
I have been accused of so many things, and I despise the stigma and shame that has been associated with me on this forum. It is written, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church of which I am a part of, and the violent take by force. I love the Almighty, and I am full of zeal for the things of God, and I want the best for everyone on this forum even if you consider me the enemy.
The Zaboor is the original Psalms. The Book in the Bible called Psalms is a corrupted mistranslated version of the Zaboor. That is why we can not consider it to be true. Granted some parts may still have some truth remaining, but it is not possible to separate out that which is true and that which has been corrupted.

You have not been stigmatized. It is just that you are spreading falsehoods and blaspheming both Allah(swt) and Prophet Isa(as).


We all pray that you will see the errors and sin you are comitting and that you will stop spreading the falsehoods and come home to the truth. The door is open for you, but nobdy is going to push you into the door. You have to enter of your own free will and only when you have the knowledge and understanding to know it is the true path.

You came here seeking to see the path we follow. You have stated you love Allah(swt) and Isa(as) We have no doubt about that. But, you can not make your own path if you desire to follow the path Allah(swt) has shown us.
Reply

NoName55
05-06-2007, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Grass is green because it is envious of trees which are much taller and don't get stepped on like grass does. Trees don't get mowed every week in the summertime and sprayed with Weed-be-gone. No, not really I think it is beacause it is filled with chlorophyll not cholroform. If God so clothes the grass which is here today and gone tomorrow, think of how much He cares for us.
do you ever get an original idea or thought?

pinching from other's essays and from mistranslations from Bibles and blending them, making them look as you are saying it or God is saying it thru you is a bad idea.

when paraphrasing anything from anyone you should say so or you end up looking like a liar or delusional person.
Reply

aadil77
05-06-2007, 02:36 PM
:sl:

Its up to you what you want to believe, but you can't come to an islamic forum preaching beleifs that that we will never believe.

You worship Jesus as if he's a god, but he himself will tell you on the Day that he was simply a prophet and not supposed to be worshiped.

Your corrupted beliefs have lead you too far astray and thats why you will struggle to accept the truth.

Your Bible and its 'teachings' are inaccurate and have changed to become false.

Allah told us that the Qur'an and its teachings will never change. This is why no one can produce a verse anything like those of the Quran's. Our Quran has been memorised and recorded by plenty of muslims thats why it words will never change, it is the true and final book of God.

If you had any intention of finding the truth, you would have just picked up a Quran with english translation or asked god to 'guide' you and Allah would have guided you. But you have become corrupted by false beleifs and are too ignorant to even try.

May Allah guide you

:w:
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
do you ever get an original idea or thought?

pinching from other's essays and from mistranslations from Bibles and blending them, making them look as you are saying it or God is saying it thru you is a bad idea.

When paraphrasing anything from anyone you should say so or you end up looking like a liar or delusional person.
Are you referring to the grass statement or the Bible verse mixed with my words? I don't know who said this, this might be original, but the grass is greener on the other side. What are you talking about specifically and why are you making a big deal out the funny grass story or the encouraging word?
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
:sl:

Its up to you what you want to believe, but you can't come to an islamic forum preaching beleifs that that we will never believe. I don't think it is up to me. I can try to believe that the world is flat but no matter how hare I try I can't believe that. So what I believe isnot up to me. I is what I see and hear as truth that causes faith to arise in my soul and the Bible does that for me.

You worship Jesus as if he's a god, but he himself will tell you on the Day that he was simply a prophet and not supposed to be worshiped. Why can't He tell me now? He is not dead!

Your corrupted beliefs have lead you too far astray and thats why you will struggle to accept the truth. He is the one who said "No man comes to the Father but by me." I know that you don't associate Father with Allah because you believe contrary to what Jesus said that He is not God's Son

Your Bible and its 'teachings' are inaccurate and have changed to become false. Not to me.

Allah told us that the Qur'an and its teachings will never change. This is why no one can produce a verse anything like those of the Quran's. Our Quran has been memorised and recorded by plenty of muslims thats why it words will never change, it is the true and final book of God. Why can't I see this? I do see it in the Bible.

If you had any intention of finding the truth, you would have just picked up a Quran with english translation or asked god to 'guide' you and Allah would have guided you. But you have become corrupted by false beleifs and are too ignorant to even try. Who are you to judge me?

May Allah guide you

:w:
Even though I am a Christian, I still pray that God delivers me from deception because the human heart is desperately wicked who can know it.
Peace
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Even though I am a Christian, I still pray that God delivers me from deception because the human heart is desperately wicked who can know it.
Peace
I believe you do pray for God(swt) to deliver you from deception and that you are now on the path to be freed from it. You seem to be very close and are trying to cast aside the last few ropes that are keeping you emotionally bound to your errors.

Self pride is a difficult think to set aside. It takes much for a human to accept that he has been misguided.

But, you are now on the steps for rising above error and to accept the truth.
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I believe you do pray for God(swt) to deliver you from deception and that you are now on the path to be freed from it. You seem to be very close and are trying to cast aside the last few ropes that are keeping you emotionally bound to your errors.

Self pride is a difficult think to set aside. It takes much for a human to accept that he has been misguided.

But, you are now on the steps for rising above error and to accept the truth.
I agree with you about self-pride, but about my being very close to seeing that Islam is for me is about as far as east is from west, and never the twain shall meet. But this I am convinced of if we are both sincerely seeking God, one of us will come out from among them. Ironically, the things you say of me are what I believe about you.
Even though I am a Christian, I will continue to pray that God delivers me from deception because the human heart is desperately wicked who can know it? The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword. It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart; and it is piercing even to the dividing of the soul and spirit. I pray that God creates a clean heart and a right spirit in me.
Reply

Woodrow
05-06-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I agree with you about self-pride, but about my being very close to seeing that Islam is for me is about as far as east is from west, and never the twain shall meet. But this I am convinced of if we are both sincerely seeking God, one of us will come out from among them. Ironically, the things you say of me are what I believe about you.
Even though I am a Christian, I will continue to pray that God delivers me from deception because the human heart is desperately wicked who can know it? The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword. It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart; and it is piercing even to the dividing of the soul and spirit. I pray that God creates a clean heart and a right spirit in me.
I believe your intentions are admirable. I will be praying that you will become a true follower of Isa(as) and come to worship just one God(as)
Reply

Redeemed
05-06-2007, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
:sl:

Its up to you what you want to believe, but you can't come to an islamic forum preaching beleifs that that we will never believe.

You worship Jesus as if he's a god, but he himself will tell you on the Day that he was simply a prophet and not supposed to be worshiped.

Your corrupted beliefs have lead you too far astray and thats why you will struggle to accept the truth.

Your Bible and its 'teachings' are inaccurate and have changed to become false.

Allah told us that the Qur'an and its teachings will never change. This is why no one can produce a verse anything like those of the Quran's. Our Quran has been memorised and recorded by plenty of muslims thats why it words will never change, it is the true and final book of God.

If you had any intention of finding the truth, you would have just picked up a Quran with english translation or asked god to 'guide' you and Allah would have guided you. But you have become corrupted by false beleifs and are too ignorant to even try.

May Allah guide you

:w:
I know you're sincere, this won't get you anywhere. You need to share what God shows you. I have just gotten a Qur'an a few days ago. And I do pray about what the Lord wants me to see in it i think I did, well I will make sure I do that, but as things stand, I would say the same to you about you beliefs that you say about me. I believe you're sincere, but sincerely wrong.
Reply

Redeemed
05-07-2007, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Zaboor is the original Psalms. The Book in the Bible called Psalms is a corrupted mistranslated version of the Zaboor. That is why we can not consider it to be true. Granted some parts may still have some truth remaining, but it is not possible to separate out that which is true and that which has been corrupted.

You have not been stigmatized. It is just that you are spreading falsehoods and blaspheming both Allah(swt) and Prophet Isa(as).


We all pray that you will see the errors and sin you are comitting and that you will stop spreading the falsehoods and come home to the truth. The door is open for you, but nobdy is going to push you into the door. You have to enter of your own free will and only when you have the knowledge and understanding to know it is the true path.

You came here seeking to see the path we follow. You have stated you love Allah(swt) and Isa(as) We have no doubt about that. But, you can not make your own path if you desire to follow the path Allah(swt) has shown us.
It is not my path to Allah it is my faith in the work of Christ on the cross of calvary. I believe that Jesus died in my place. He died the death I deserved. He took my punishment. All my sin went on him, and His righteousness came on me. That is the only way or reason and terms that God will accept me. It was by the shedding of His blood I am now set free from the law of sin and death. I am free. I was lost and now I am found. I was blind and now I see. I do not care to be put back in bondage again. I am now forgetting as the apostle Paul said the things that are behind and pressing on to the high calling in Christ Jesus who is the only one that can lead me to the Father. Who is God to me.
Reply

Woodrow
05-07-2007, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
It is not my path to Allah it is my faith in the work of Christ on the cross of calvary. I believe that Jesus died in my place. He died the death I deserved. He took my punishment. All my sin went on him, and His righteousness came on me. That is the only way or reason and terms that God will accept me. It was by the shedding of His blood I am now set free from the law of sin and death. I am free. I was lost and now I am found. I was blind and now I see. I do not care to be put back in bondage again. I am now forgetting as the apostle Paul said the things that are behind and pressing on to the high calling in Christ Jesus who is the only one that can lead me to the Father. Who is God to me.
The choice is yours and yours alone. I respect your right to follow the path of your choosing. Please respect our right to live the truth.

Too many come here with the mistaken Idea that we have not been exposed to Christianity. Many of us here had been Christians and we have woken up and saw the error of our ways.

A large number of the members are also members on Christian forums. As Muslims we do accept our faith with a full understanding of why we accept it and know it is the Truth.

Your words here are words that have been investigated deeply by nearly every Muslim and we can not find any truth in them. we know that they are words that lead to eternal Hellfire.
Reply

Redeemed
05-07-2007, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You are badly mistaken here. There are certain fundamental beliefs in Islam - one of which is the Books of Allah, but we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 2:177 Righteousness is not whether you turn your face towards East or West; but the righteousness is to believe in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Books and the Prophets, and to spend wealth out of love for Him on relatives, orphans, helpless, needy travellers, those who ask for and on the redemption of captives; and to establish Salah (prayers), to pay Zakah (alms), to fulfill promises when made, to be steadfast in distress, in adversity, and at the time of war. These people are the truthful and these are the pious.

To define what those books are....

Quran 3:84 O Prophet, say: "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishaq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants; and in that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb; we do not discriminate any one of them, and to Allah do we submit in Islam."

We believe that the Books revealed to Prophets Moses, David, and Jesus (pbut) have been changed and are no longer valid sources of divine revelation and NO we are not commanded to obey them.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah.

Quran 3:187 When Allah made the covenant with those who were given the Book, they were asked to spread the teachings of the Book to mankind and not to conceal them; but they cast it behind their backs and sold them for a petty price. What a bad bargain they made!

Regarding my opinion of those engaged in proselytizing Muslims...

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quoting you from earlier, So I will pray now: Oh Almighty God I beg you to reveal the truth about the prophet ??? Jesus to us clearly so that we can see the vision clearly and run with it. I come against the spiritual wickedness in high places and bind every thought and imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. I even do this through Jesus who leads us to the Lord of Lights and to the Almighty who is our creator who made heaven and earth. I say the Lord rebuke you Satan and your demon helpers because you are a liar and the Father of it. You can go to hell where you came from. Almighty God show yourself strong in the midst of this forum for this battle is not mine. This battle is yours and you are full of wisdom and mercy. Be exalted OH God above the heavens and let your glory be over all the earth and on this forum tonight.
Amen

Are you sure this was not a prayer by Pope Urban II in 1095 before the 1st Crusade?
To us it makes no difference, which way we turn when we pray. We are free to pray anytime anywhere, and God hears us. I wouldn't want to restrict my pet much less my child from calling on me when anytime in need. If I can show that much love and concern, how much more loving and merciful is my God? We believe in God (Allah), but that is not enough the devils believe too.
We believe we are already living in the last days, which started with Jesus, but the last day is when Jesus returns. We believe also in the existence of angels. We believe the Books of the Bible and the messages of the Prophets. We believe in providing for our own families (relatives) orphans, helpless, needy travelers, and those who ask for and on freeing the captives. We believe in the power of prayer. We believe that it is important to keep our word because god does not delight in fools. But we do not put our faith in prophets, angels, any good works that we can do. We believe we are save by faith through grace and that is not of ourselves; it is a gift of God; otherwise, we would be able to boast and say I did. We believe that Jesus is born of a virgin and was sinless from birth till now. That is why He is much more important to us than any other prophet who lived.
Reply

Woodrow
05-07-2007, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
To us it makes no difference, which way we turn when we pray. We are free to pray anytime anywhere, and God hears us. I wouldn't want to restrict my pet much less my child from calling on me when anytime in need. If I can show that much love and concern, how much more loving and merciful is my God? We believe in God (Allah), but that is not enough the devils believe too.
We believe we are already living in the last days, which started with Jesus, but the last day is when Jesus returns. We believe also in the existence of angels. We believe the Books of the Bible and the messages of the Prophets. We believe in providing for our own families (relatives) orphans, helpless, needy travelers, and those who ask for and on freeing the captives. We believe in the power of prayer. We believe that it is important to keep our word because god does not delight in fools. But we do not put our faith in prophets, angels, any good works that we can do. We believe we are save by faith through grace and that is not of ourselves; it is a gift of God; otherwise, we would be able to boast and say I did. We believe that Jesus is born of a virgin and was sinless from birth till now. That is why He is much more important to us than any other prophet who lived.
When you are in a Church do you not face the pulpit or alter? to us the entire Earth is a Mosque so when we pray we all face towards the same alter or pulpit for the same reason you do when in church.

Yes we are free to pray anytime we choose. We just have 5 obligatory prayers that must be said at specific times. the restriction on not praying doing those 2 times simply means they are not the times we can say the obligatory prayers.

We also believe this:

We believe we are save by faith through grace and that is not of ourselves; it is a gift of God;
only we do believe it is through Allah(swt) alone with no intermediaries and no other person except through Allah(swt) alone. Only Allah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and it is only Him do we worship and ask for forgiveness.

It saddens me to see you do not believe Allah(swt) is powerful enough to forgive sins.
Reply

Redeemed
05-07-2007, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
When you are in a Church do you not face the pulpit or alter? to us the entire Earth is a Mosque so when we pray we all face towards the same alter or pulpit for the same reason you do when in church.

Yes we are free to pray anytime we choose. We just have 5 obligatory prayers that must be said at specific times. the restriction on not praying doing those 2 times simply means they are not the times we can say the obligatory prayers.

We also believe this:



only we do believe it is through Allah(swt) alone with no intermediaries and no other person except through Allah(swt) alone. Only Allah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and it is only Him do we worship and ask for forgiveness.

It saddens me to see you do not believe Allah(swt) is powerful enough to forgive sins.
Why should Allah forgive you or me for that matter? You might tell me because He is merciful. He is merciful; however, He is also just. We believe that His justice will not allow you or me to escape the punishment for our wickedness such as our sins in the past, present and future. “For the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God in hell forever), but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ.” Why such as a gift? Because God loves us He allowed Jesus to take our sentence of death so that He instead became the curse and sin for us so that we could have His righteousness before God. On the judgment day, I will stand before God in the same righteousness of Jesus, but you will stand in your own righteousness. Do not be saddened for me. My name as I write to you is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. “How can we hope to escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?” This is why I will not revert. We are free in Christ. There are no obligatory prayers or fasts for us we are free. That is bondage. We are free from religious tradition and formalities. We don't have religion we have a relationship with God in where He considers us friends, because our sins have been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. The angel of death will claim all who don't have their hearts covered by the blood of the Lamb (Jesus) just like the death angel claimed the first born of every home that didn't have the door post of their house marked with lamb's blood. Jesus said, “Behold I stand at the door and knock if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with him.”
Reply

Kashnowe
05-07-2007, 04:15 AM
Grass is green because it is envious of trees which are much taller and don't get stepped on like grass does. Trees don't get mowed every week in the summertime and sprayed with Weed-be-gone. No, not really I think it is beacause it is filled with chlorophyll not cholroform. If God so clothes the grass which is here today and gone tomorrow, think of how much He cares for us.
whoaaaaaa this is getting a little carried away. iwas just trying to show that the previous arguments over right and wrong were fruitless. each side firmly believes in their faith. (not trying to be mean but duh!) i think most of us are merely here to learn and share not to argue.

so yes grass is not r eally green. it is made up of particles that our eyes percieve to be green when the light reflects off of them.....but for some people when the light hits the grass they see red.

hrm whatever......

can't we all just get along :)))
Reply

Woodrow
05-07-2007, 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
whoaaaaaa this is getting a little carried away. iwas just trying to show that the previous arguments over right and wrong were fruitless. each side firmly believes in their faith. (not trying to be mean but duh!) i think most of us are merely here to learn and share not to argue.

so yes grass is not r eally green. it is made up of particles that our eyes percieve to be green when the light reflects off of them.....but for some people when the light hits the grass they see red.

hrm whatever......

can't we all just get along :)))
Actually it is because we do get along that we disagree so strongly. If I viewed alapiana as an enemy I would simply let him speak until he runs out of breath and ignore him. But, I see him as a person who does have a sincere desire to serve Allah(swt) and He is aware of the message of Islam. He is making a free choice and does not fully understand the consequences of his choice.

But, you are right it is a pointless arguement,
Reply

Woodrow
05-07-2007, 04:57 AM
After reviewing this thread very deeply and looking over some PMs I have recieved concrning this. I have to agree the thread is serving no purpose and is rapidly becoming offensive to both Muslim and Non-Muslim members.

Also the purpose of this forum is to promote and educate about Islam. This thread is doing neither. It is simply a "I'm right- You are wrong argument" that has no end.

Far better to let it end before it goes any further.
Reply

Umar001
05-07-2007, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I agree with my pastor who said there are divine truths that cannot be fully understood within our time-space frame reference. In other words, our time-space use of logic cannot reduce God's oneness and threeness into rational terms. That is what Muslims try to do when they attempt to explain away the nature of God according to the Bible. They say it is impossible for Jesus to be the Mighty God and the Word of God or where even Jesus refers to himself as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit (Isa, 9:6, Gal.2:20, John 14:23). God has given us time-space logic for our wise use, but trying to force God into our framework has led to heresies such as the Jehovah's Witness that only acknowledge Jesus as God's Son and the Father as the only true God or the Muslims that say we worship three gods. God can defy logic. He does when there are miracles; moreover, we would be foolish to believe that the One who created time and space cannot function outside of that framework. Jesus was without sin. There has never been any body in this world in the past, present or future that that can be said about. Just because something comes from a reliable source, that in it self does not make it true, and just because some has been tempered with does mean that it can’t be used as evidence because there are always the original texts to compare these manipulations to. If it were just one or two verses in the Bible that say Jesus is the Son of God, then you would have something, But the Bible is replete with who Jesus is and constantly alludes to His deity. “If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink. He that believes in me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” Jn. 7:37 He also said, you neither know me, nor my Father: if you had known me, you should have known my Father also. It is clear to me according to the Bible. Jesus is saying that no one has a relationship with the Creator outside of Himself and no one can even come to Christ unless Allah draws him. For it is written all things were made by Him (JESUS) and for Him.
If only you would take time to speak and establish proofs, for example, you claim:

Originally Posted by alapiana1
They say it is impossible for Jesus to be the Mighty God and the Word of God or where even Jesus refers to himself as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit (Isa, 9:6, Gal.2:20, John 14:23).
Noone of those verses show Jesus claiming to be the Father, Glory be to God, for many believe in him but associate others with him.

As for that whole speech, it misses the point. I as a muslim do not confine God, if you knew but the fundamentals of the islamic faith you'd know this is not for a Muslim to do, rather, just as we dont speak to kids in the 5th Grade with language used at a labatory at Nasa, because the kid's would not understand, it is only reasonable to expect God to make the basics clear to us.

Anyhow this is not of great importance.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
I didn't say you didn't believe in Allah. It is written, "The devils believe in God; they fear and Tremble" too. Oh long will you halt between two opinions if you believe in God serve Him. Your having a low tolerance for preaching is not my problem. I am to obey and submit to God not man.
You claim to submit to God, but instead of doing that you submit to scripture which there is no valid reason to submit to, rather, you submit to your feelings and desires!

Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. That is why I do not hungry for anything else.
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have experience those rewards. That is why I cannot be snatch out of His hand.
That is what you submit to, feelings which you have no proof are from God. They just keep you satisfied.

Originally Posted by Woodrow
I believe you do pray for God(swt) to deliver you from deception and that you are now on the path to be freed from it. You seem to be very close and are trying to cast aside the last few ropes that are keeping you emotionally bound to your errors.
Someone can pray for guidance night and day, but unless they use what God gave them they shall never be guided.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
We believe in God (Allah), but that is not enough the devils believe too.
We believe we are already living in the last days, which started with Jesus, but the last day is when Jesus returns. We believe also in the existence of angels. We believe the Books of the Bible and the messages of the Prophets. We believe in providing for our own families (relatives) orphans, helpless, needy travelers, and those who ask for and on freeing the captives. We believe in the power of prayer. We believe that it is important to keep our word because god does not delight in fools. But we do not put our faith in prophets, angels, any good works that we can do. We believe we are save by faith through grace and that is not of ourselves; it is a gift of God; otherwise, we would be able to boast and say I did. We believe that Jesus is born of a virgin and was sinless from birth till now. That is why He is much more important to us than any other prophet who lived.
The difference is that I use the mind that God gave me to place my faith, whilst I wonder if you do, and if you do not then you are not following the bible and loving God with all your mind.

And to finish that off, I wonder if you'll finally reply to me with regards to the reason I upped this thread;

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Just out of curiousity will you reply to any other part of the post?

:rollseyes
I posted this post:

http://www.islamicboard.com/722609-post43.html

To which you just said:

Originally Posted by alapiana1
Yes, I am sincere
Talk about sincere conversation. :X
Reply

Kashnowe
05-09-2007, 06:23 PM
what about this?

Isaiah 9
To Us a Child Is Born
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

"

it clearly saya a boy child will be Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Reply

Redeemed
05-09-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
what about this?

Isaiah 9
To Us a Child Is Born
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

"

it clearly saya a boy child will be Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
I put the part that is really interesting in red. It is so obvious that the Scriptures point to Jesus as Lord that the only way someone could attempt to get away from this fact is by saying the Bible is flawed, but it won't work because the Bible; in fact, is the inerrant word of God. Just because someone has a reliable and preserved book, that does not make it truth; it could be reliably wrong. In other words, you can count on it. Jeremiah the prophet spoke saying: “...the day will come when I raise up to David a righteous Branch and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment... in the earth...and His name shall be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is obviously Jesus. The devil is the deceiver and destroyer. His work is clear; he can only bruise the heel of those that follow Christ, while his head gets crushed.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
what about this?

Isaiah 9
To Us a Child Is Born
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

"

it clearly saya a boy child will be Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Does this mean you believe the Bible?
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I put the part that is really interesting in red. It is so obvious that the Scriptures point to Jesus as Lord that the only way someone could attempt to get away from this fact is by saying the Bible is flawed, but it won't work because the Bible; in fact, is the inerrant word of God.
Both the points of yours need evidence, unless you just believe.

If by Lord you mean Almighty God then I disagree and I also disagree with the Bible being inerrant.


Originally Posted by alapiana1
Just because someone has a reliable and preserved book, that does not make it truth; it could be reliably wrong.
Just like my other posts I dont expect a reply, but I have yet to meet anyone who claims that preservation or reliability alone make a book true.

Originally Posted by cooloonka
what about this?

Isaiah 9
To Us a Child Is Born
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

"

it clearly saya a boy child will be Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
I had answered this previously in an old thred, I will try to bring back the answer, in the meanwhile, do you know what Gabriel or Peniel mean? Also you've made a mistake, you said 'will be Wonderful Counselor...' rather the text says 'will be called Wonderful..'

Regards, Eesa.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
If only you would take time to speak and establish proofs, for example, you claim:



Noone of those verses show Jesus claiming to be the Father, Glory be to God, for many believe in him but associate others with him.

As for that whole speech, it misses the point. I as a muslim do not confine God, if you knew but the fundamentals of the islamic faith you'd know this is not for a Muslim to do, rather, just as we dont speak to kids in the 5th Grade with language used at a labatory at Nasa, because the kid's would not understand, it is only reasonable to expect God to make the basics clear to us.

Anyhow this is not of great importance.



You claim to submit to God, but instead of doing that you submit to scripture which there is no valid reason to submit to, rather, you submit to your feelings and desires!





That is what you submit to, feelings which you have no proof are from God. They just keep you satisfied.



Someone can pray for guidance night and day, but unless they use what God gave them they shall never be guided.



The difference is that I use the mind that God gave me to place my faith, whilst I wonder if you do, and if you do not then you are not following the bible and loving God with all your mind.

And to finish that off, I wonder if you'll finally reply to me with regards to the reason I upped this thread;



I posted this post:

http://www.islamicboard.com/722609-post43.html

To which you just said:



Talk about sincere conversation. :X
What ever do you mean? Is there something I said that is not sincere that you want to prove? The fact that I told you that the Bible has been manipulate and butchered in certain translations, I always maintained that they all, for the most part keep, their integrity in regards to the nature of Christ with the exception of the JW's Bible from the Watch Tower Society. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is a created being and not deity or they believe he is a god. They have taken the Bible and added certain articles inappropriately. Moreover, the fact that I said the Qur'an has been well preserved does not mean that I was siding against the Bible in favor of Islam. Like I said, you can have any piece of literature that is original and preserved carefully and comes from a reputable and reliable source, but that doesn't make it the word of God. I don’t appreciate you implying that I am not sincere. I hope I am mistaken here.
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 12:50 AM
Here:

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Peace be upon yall.

Just so we have some peace of mind from these statments we can take a look at 3 of them. This is from research and hardly anything is my own 'new work' so May The G-d of Abraham, Guide the Christians who have worked hard to get closer to truth and Bless both Christians and Muslims who have earnestly and honestly worked for only G-d.

Now it is stated:

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

Now there are many approaches that cane be taken, First and foremost we can for the sake of arguement agree this is Jesus, thought hardly much indicates that but a preconditioned mind.

One point, never did Jesus have a goverment, Jesus explictly said 'My kingdom is not of this world' and 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's' (John 18:36 and Matthew 22:21)

To go on, we see for some reason the words used are Might G-d and not Almighty G-d. I would advise you to read the Hebrew word for Mighty, from my research it is 'Gibbowr' people may thing its a little thing but in reality it isn't because..if you check what this word can be translated as it ranges from
1. strong, mighty n m
2. strong man, brave man, mighty man
"Source "

So this Gibbowr is a word which can be used for men, and we see now why Isaiah hasnt used ALMIGHTY which is only for G-d alone.

Also, lets look at the word here translated as G-d, El, this is famous, come on, this Refers to G-d but men too, you should know, any Christian knows what the Bible claims Jesus said on the Cross, Eli Eli... and people thought he was calling to a Man.
Also we see the bible uses this El, in single and plural to talk about Men.
Exodus 7:1 1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Here it is the plural used to show Moses' position over Pharoe.

1. (plural)
1. rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
1. god, goddess
2. godlike one
3. works or special possessions of God
4. the (true) God
5. God
Source

Also, In Psalsm 82:1 it says 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.' with the word El Source

This El aparently carries the meaning of:

1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power

Source

Now after all that we can also look at the other terms such as 'Everlasting Father'

Now some example of the term everlasting or forever used with regards to people in the Bible:

Ezekiel 37:25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

And the term father.

Genesis 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Job 29:16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

Again this is a simple mistake of people taking things out of a vacuum, the language used was clear to the Jews the recipients, Almighty to them was much more than just Mighty so with the world El and YHWH. It would be like me writing a letter saying, 'your an angel and a prince' and someone in another country centruies later reading it taking it in a vacuum without the understanding of my time and saying 'look, see his friend was an angel with wings from heaven and a prince of heaven' see what I mean?

Plus, I would like to state that this Prophecy says, "name shall be called" so these are names, not what the person is, There is a difference between someone being called, G-d's strenght and actually them being G-d's real strenght. This propechy was only saying this persons names, it doesn't say 'He WILL BE MIGHT GOD'.

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
What ever do you mean? Is there something I said that is not sincere that you want to prove? The fact that I told you that the Bible has been manipulate and butchered in certain translations, I always maintained that they all, for the most part keep, their integrity in regards to the nature of Christ with the exception of the JW's Bible from the Watch Tower Society. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is a created being and not deity or they believe he is a god. They have taken the Bible and added certain articles inappropriately. Moreover, the fact that I said the Qur'an has been well preserved does not mean that I was siding against the Bible in favor of Islam. Like I said, you can have any piece of literature that is original and preserved carefully and comes from a reputable and reliable source, but that doesn't make it the word of God. I don’t appreciate you implying that I am not sincere. I hope I am mistaken here.
As I said before, the pattern is becoming repetative, we start a conversation, and then you don't reply half way through and end up making a one line comment about things, hardly a conversation, I even left the link to the discussion I had replied to:

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Well that's your assumption, you're assuming it cannot.
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
What's your proof that he got stuff from the Old Testament?
Amongst other things.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Both the points of yours need evidence, unless you just believe.

If by Lord you mean Almighty God then I disagree and I also disagree with the Bible being inerrant.
I know you disagree, and like I had mentioned previously the Bible doesn't need a defense. I don't have to prove it just unlease it. It holds its own against any book. Just like my other posts I dont expect a reply, but I have yet to meet anyone who claims that preservation or reliability alone make a book true.



I had answered this previously in an old thred, I will try to bring back the answer, in the meanwhile, do you know what Gabriel or Peniel mean? Also you've made a mistake, you said 'will be Wonderful Counselor...' rather the text says 'will be called Wonderful..'

Regards, Eesa.
Forgive my mistake there, translational error on my part, but you didn't mention that He would be called mighty God.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:04 AM
By the way, you said, "Just like my other posts I dont expect a reply, but I have yet to meet anyone who claims that preservation or reliability alone make a book true." I thought that is part of the prove that the Qur'an was the word of Allah?
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 01:05 AM
I know you disagree, and like I had mentioned previously the Bible doesn't need a defense. I don't have to prove it just unlease it. It holds its own against any book.

So you just make claims and don't back them up? Ok.

Originally Posted by alapiana1
Forgive my mistake there, translational error on my part, but you didn't mention that He would be called mighty God.
That was not directed at you bro, it was directed at the person who quoted Isaiah. :)
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
As I said before, the pattern is becoming repetative, we start a conversation, and then you don't reply half way through and end up making a one line comment about things, hardly a conversation, I even left the link to the discussion I had replied to:





Amongst other things.
OK, I will try to address these.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I know you disagree, and like I had mentioned previously the Bible doesn't need a defense. I don't have to prove it just unlease it. It holds its own against any book.

So you just make claims and don't back them up? Ok.
OK, all right, You know as well as I not everything can be proved. We both believe in a Creator, but we cannot prove that to the unbelieving world. I take it by faith that it is not necessary to defend the Bible, because I believe it is tantamount to defending a roaring lion from a small goat.
That was not directed at you bro, it was directed at the person who quoted Isaiah. :)
OH, but you can still address the part about Him being called the mighty god. I know, you will say the Bible is flawed.
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 01:17 AM
OK, all right, You know as well as I not everything can be proved. We both believe in a Creator, but we cannot prove that to the unbelieving world. I take it by faith that it is not necessary to defend the Bible, because I believe it is tantamount to defending a roaring lion from a small goat.

So if you cant prove it why make that statement, also if you cant prove it and you dont have logical reasons then why do you follow it, why not another religion?

Originally Posted by alapiana1
OH, but you can still address the part about Him being called the mighty god. I know, you will say the Bible is flawed.
I have tried to address it. :)
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
OK, all right, You know as well as I not everything can be proved. We both believe in a Creator, but we cannot prove that to the unbelieving world. I take it by faith that it is not necessary to defend the Bible, because I believe it is tantamount to defending a roaring lion from a small goat.

So if you cant prove it why make that statement, also if you cant prove it and you dont have logical reasons then why do you follow it, why not another religion?



I have tried to address it. :)
Where?
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:20 AM
This is really funny, LOL, you accuse me of giving you a one liner then you start giving me one liners, and I respond with one word. Pretty soon you will give me one word and I'll respond in syllables
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 01:21 AM
http://www.islamicboard.com/734482-post132.html

Originally Posted by alapiana1
This is really funny, LOL, you accuse me of giving you a one liner then you start giving me one liners, and I respond with one word. Pretty soon you will give me one word and I'll respond in syllables
The thing was that I posted about 30 lines which composed of about 4 points and you just said 3 words or so in reply lol.
Reply

Kashnowe
05-10-2007, 01:25 AM
i'm sure this has been asked before but i can't seem to find it.

so what proof do muslims have that the quran is the word of God?

i think its a good point that just because the quran has remained unchanged that that means it is more reputable than the bible. i can write a book in english today and claim it is the word of God and in 1000 years it will remain unchanged and people will still be reading it.....this doesn't mean it is the word of God.

so that argument about the bible being wrong because it was translated is really a poor one.....
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
OK, all right, You know as well as I not everything can be proved. We both believe in a Creator, but we cannot prove that to the unbelieving world. I take it by faith that it is not necessary to defend the Bible, because I believe it is tantamount to defending a roaring lion from a small goat.

So if you cant prove it why make that statement, also if you cant prove it and you dont have logical reasons then why do you follow it, why not another religion?



I have tried to address it. :)
I follow it for the same reason you follow what you believe partly, but mostly, I go by faith. I do not depend on reason and logic or lean to my own understanding. I do not trust myself that way. I trust God in Jesus name. There is a way that seems right to a man, but that is the way that leads to death. That way is broad like the road to hell and many go that way, but the way to life is narrow and few find it. Jesus said, 'Blessed are those who believe and have not seen..." in relationship to who He is. The just shall live by faith. It is better than a known logical way.
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
i'm sure this has been asked before but i can't seem to find it.

so what proof do muslims have that the quran is the word of God?

i think its a good point that just because the quran has remained unchanged that that means it is more reputable than the bible. i can write a book in english today and claim it is the word of God and in 1000 years it will remain unchanged and people will still be reading it.....this doesn't mean it is the word of God.

so that argument about the bible being wrong because it was translated is really a poor one.....
I for one do not claim that translation means curroption.

Neither do I claim that preservation on it's own means it's God's word, but rather, preservation in my eyes is a prerequisite for God's Message to us.

If you like please create another thread about the Qu'ran.

I really would like not to diviate from the topic at hand.
Reply

Umar001
05-10-2007, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
I follow it for the same reason you follow what you believe partly, but mostly, I go by faith. I do not depend on reason and logic or lean to my own understanding. I do not trust myself that way.
You misunderstand, there's a difference between using our understanding as a tool to help us find the path and using it to understand God.


Originally Posted by alapiana1
I trust God in Jesus name.
Why? Why in Jesus' name? Why not believe in Hinduism or Buddism or Islam?
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by cooloonka
i'm sure this has been asked before but i can't seem to find it.

so what proof do muslims have that the quran is the word of God?

i think its a good point that just because the quran has remained unchanged that that means it is more reputable than the bible. i can write a book in english today and claim it is the word of God and in 1000 years it will remain unchanged and people will still be reading it.....this doesn't mean it is the word of God.

so that argument about the bible being wrong because it was translated is really a poor one.....

I believe many of us will agree with you. As a Muslim we are obligated to look for verification in all we read. Although we do accept the Qur'an on faith, we also have knowldge that it is true based on what we verify on our own.

that gets to be very individual as the amount and/or types of proof need to convince any of us will vary.

Some people the validation of the Scientific miracles is sufficient. For myself the Qur'anic challange is sufficient.

I will agree that the fact the Bible was translated is not proof that the Bible is in error, but it is evidence that it is not the same as the original and the differences between the different variations can be shocking.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I for one do not claim that translation means curroption.

Neither do I claim that preservation on it's own means it's God's word, but rather, preservation in my eyes is a prerequisite for God's Message to us.

If you like please create another thread about the Qu'ran.

I really would like not to diviate from the topic at hand.
I had already started a thread on it that was waiting for an OK
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 03:59 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I believe many of us will agree with you. As a Muslim we are obligated to look for verification in all we read. Although we do accept the Qur'an on faith, we also have knowldge that it is true based on what we verify on our own.

that gets to be very individual as the amount and/or types of proof need to convince any of us will vary.

Some people the validation of the Scientific miracles is sufficient. For myself the Qur'anic challange is sufficient.

I will agree that the fact the Bible was translated is not proof that the Bible is in error, but it is evidence that it is not the same as the original and the differences between the different variations can be shocking.
What would be so shocking for example?
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
http://www.islamicboard.com/734482-post132.html



The thing was that I posted about 30 lines which composed of about 4 points and you just said 3 words or so in reply lol.
Sorry about that:exhausted
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
What would be so shocking for example?
The 10 commandments for starters.

Q: What are the “Ten Commandments?

A: The Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament) contains lots of rules which developed over a millennium. Most of these were borrowed from earlier Near Eastern law codes, known to the Hebrews through cultural contact with Egypt and Babylonian civilization. Because of the complexity, redundancy, and inconsistency of these laws, early Judaism singled out a number of “statements”— called Aseret ha-Dvarîm, “the ten injunctions”— as a kind of summary. In the Greek translation of the Bible, used by Christians, the term employed is dekalogoi or “the ten words.”

There is no place in the Bible where the statements are called “commandments.” The phrase originates with God (in Exodus 34.11) “commanding” Moses to write them down.

There is only one place in the Bible where the number ten is given. In the single passage where the “ten words” are referred to (Exodus 34.28-29), the reference is to God “replacing” the original commandments, following Moses’ smashing the stone tablets ( in Exodus 32.19).

Literally, the Ten Commandments are the following:



I. Do not make deals with the Hivites, or other strange people: Demolish their altars.
II. Don’t marry their daughters or you’ll be encouraged to accept their gods. (34.11-16).
III. Don’t make gods out of cast metal (the way they do): 34.17
IV. Observe the feast of unleavened bread in the month of Abib to commemorate when you were taken out of Egypt (34.18)
V. Don’t come before me empty-handed, because the first born cattle, sheep, and even your firstborn sons belong to me. (34.19-20)
VI. Keep the seventh day for rest, even during harvest and ploughing time. Whoever works on the sabbath will be put to death (34.21; 35.2)
VII. Your males must keep the feast of “weeks” (Shavuot or Pentecost, originally a harvest festival) as a thanksgiving for God’s driving the inhabitants out of Canaan (Exodus 34.22-34)
VIII. Don’t offer leavened bread with the Passover lamb (34.25)
IX. Give God the best portion when you sacrifice. (34.26)
X. Don’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk (34.26)

Source: http://www.tenamendmentsday.org/10cfaq.php
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The 10 commandments for starters.




Source: http://www.tenamendmentsday.org/10cfaq.php
Somehow I can't believe that you find this shocking. It doesn't shock me. What would shock me is finding out Islam is what God intended for Christians:skeleton:
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
Somehow I can't believe that you find this shocking. It doesn't shock me. What would shock me is finding out Islam is what God intended for Christians:skeleton:
Islam means to serve God(swt) that is what the religion is. Isn't that what the Bible tries to teach Christians to do?

So yes, if followed correctly the intention of Christianity is to be Muslim.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Islam means to serve God(swt) that is what the religion is. Isn't that what the Bible tries to teach Christians to do?

So yes, if followed correctly the intention of Christianity is to be Muslim.
And then you woke up:blind:
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
And then you woke up:blind:
yep, I woke up. Many former Christians will tell you that Christ led them to Islam.

We have a number of them here on this forum.
Reply

Redeemed
05-10-2007, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
yep, I woke up. Many former Christians will tell you that Christ led them to Islam.

We have a number of them here on this forum.
From what your saying, it sounds like this forum is winning more Christians than the other way around.
I can only thank God up till now it didn't happen to me, and I do.:statisfie
Here is a little write up on the influences on Christianity.
So what? We celebrate birthdays on days that are convenient rather than the
specific date because nobody will come on the real day. Here's an article
that spells out the history pretty accurately.

Why December 25?
For the church's first three centuries, Christmas wasn't in December—or on
the calendar at all.

Elesha Coffman

It's very tough for us North Americans to imagine Mary and Joseph trudging
to Bethlehem in anything but, as Christina Rosetti memorably described it,
"the bleak mid-winter," surrounded by "snow on snow on snow." To us,
Christmas and December are inseparable. But for the first three centuries of
Christianity, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar anywhere.

If observed at all, the celebration of Christ's birth was usually lumped in
with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church's earliest established feasts.
Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen
(c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same
way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

Not all of Origen's contemporaries agreed that Christ's birthday shouldn't
be celebrated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were
apparently long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20
but noted that others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28.
Hippolytus (c.170-c.236) championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and
March 25 all had backers as well. A Latin treatise written around 243 pegged
March 21, because that was believed to be the date on which God created the
sun. Polycarp (c.69-c.155) had followed the same line of reasoning to
conclude that Christ's birth and baptism most likely occurred on Wednesday,
because the sun was created on the fourth day.

The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a
convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's
identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already
hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth
of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of
Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter
solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier.
Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the
true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a
new festival.

Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after
Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion.
Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's
birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25,
celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the
latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6.
Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but
as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.

Another wrinkle was added in the sixteenth century when Pope Gregory devised
a new calendar, which was unevenly adopted. The Eastern Orthodox and some
Protestants retained the Julian calendar, which meant they celebrated
Christmas 13 days later than their Gregorian counterparts. Most—but not
all—of the Christian world now agrees on the Gregorian calendar and the
December 25 date.

The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many
Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia;
greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various
foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the
holiday. "It's just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow," naysayers argue.
But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians,
the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including
holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day
holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of
him who made it."

Elesha can be reached at cheditor@ChristianityToday.com.
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by alapiana1
From what your saying, it sounds like this forum is winning more Christians than the other way around.
I can only thank God up till now it didn't happen to me, and I do.:statisfie
Here is a little write up on the influences on Christianity.
So what? We celebrate birthdays on days that are convenient rather than the
specific date because nobody will come on the real day. Here's an article
that spells out the history pretty accurately.

Why December 25?
For the church's first three centuries, Christmas wasn't in December—or on
the calendar at all.

Elesha Coffman

It's very tough for us North Americans to imagine Mary and Joseph trudging
to Bethlehem in anything but, as Christina Rosetti memorably described it,
"the bleak mid-winter," surrounded by "snow on snow on snow." To us,
Christmas and December are inseparable. But for the first three centuries of
Christianity, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar anywhere.

If observed at all, the celebration of Christ's birth was usually lumped in
with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church's earliest established feasts.
Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen
(c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same
way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

Not all of Origen's contemporaries agreed that Christ's birthday shouldn't
be celebrated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were
apparently long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20
but noted that others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28.
Hippolytus (c.170-c.236) championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and
March 25 all had backers as well. A Latin treatise written around 243 pegged
March 21, because that was believed to be the date on which God created the
sun. Polycarp (c.69-c.155) had followed the same line of reasoning to
conclude that Christ's birth and baptism most likely occurred on Wednesday,
because the sun was created on the fourth day.

The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a
convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's
identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already
hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth
of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of
Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter
solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier.
Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the
true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a
new festival.

Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after
Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion.
Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's
birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25,
celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the
latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6.
Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but
as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.

Another wrinkle was added in the sixteenth century when Pope Gregory devised
a new calendar, which was unevenly adopted. The Eastern Orthodox and some
Protestants retained the Julian calendar, which meant they celebrated
Christmas 13 days later than their Gregorian counterparts. Most—but not
all—of the Christian world now agrees on the Gregorian calendar and the
December 25 date.

The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many
Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia;
greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various
foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the
holiday. "It's just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow," naysayers argue.
But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians,
the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including
holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day
holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of
him who made it."

Elesha can be reached at cheditor@ChristianityToday.com.
In spite of my obvious enjoyment of arguing I really do believe there is no compulsion in religion. It is up to each of us to learn what we can and to have our decisions based upon our own findings.

Perhaps like with some others here the closest we will come in agreement is to agree to disagree, with respect.
Reply

MustafaMc
05-10-2007, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
yep, I woke up. Many former Christians will tell you that Christ led them to Islam.

We have a number of them here on this forum.
Yes, I woke up too. Each person's reversion to Islam is unique. For me it was more of what is called a "paradigm shift".

Wikipedia
"Paradigm shift is the term first used by Thomas Kuhn in his 1962 book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions to describe a change in basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. It has since become widely applied to many other realms of human experience as well even though Kuhn himself restricted the use of the term to the hard sciences. ... A scientist, however, once a paradigm shift is complete, is not allowed the luxury, for example, of positing the possibility that miasma causes the flu or that ether carries light ... Thus, paradigms, in the sense that Kuhn used them, do not exist in Humanities or social sciences. Nonetheless, the term has been adopted since the 1960s and applied in non-scientific contexts."

Just as I can no longer believe that the earth is flat, I can't return to believing that Jesus is either the Son of God or God. My basic underlying assumptions have changed away from what Christianity teaches.
Reply

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