America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

yak , i wanted to write the following reply but accidently deleted the original post.

Mod , anything u can do ?

**


Salaam/peace ,


---opppsss , someone is objecting against peace greetings but i want to continue , pl. don't object or just overlook ......easy solution :giggling:

so what is this thread about again????? Some Muslims feel the pain of america, but yet feel an injustice that America apparently doesnt give as much coverage to them?

--almost got the point :thumbs_up

may be reading few lines of the 1st post will help u to understand fully :)

....While mournig over 32 deaths , do u think Americans should also remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation ? Or is it mean to ask them to do so ?

......Think about it one last time. Thirty different Virginia Tech size shootings in one day. Day after day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...t_b_46134.html


---u may also add these while understanding the purpose of the thread :

say if any Iraqi asks u , how more innocent people including kids should die in Iraq to get the same media coverage like VT tragedy ..... What will be ur answer ?



While mourning over 31 or 32 dead persons , how many Americans thought of the pain of Iraqi people who lost .......only God knows how many actually died there , we can guess :

Number Of Iraqi Civilians Slaughtered In America's War On Iraq - At Least 655,000 + +

http://tinyurl.com/usq4x


How many Americans while feeling pain & sorrow for Iraqi people also thought '' we are not doing anything/much to stop the war '' ? Only feel pain of others is not enough , we must do something etc , etc.

[Abdul Fattah]

Mashaallah good post sister
this is so true. When they talk about Iraq, all they do is speak of numbers and body counts, when it happens at home, they show pictures, mourning families, broken dreams. Media isn't balanced.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

.....When they talk about Iraq, all they do is speak of numbers and body counts, when it happens at home, they show pictures, mourning families, broken dreams.

--a very good point. Yes , when media will understand that the dead Iraqi people are not numbers only but they are human being ?

Media isn't balanced.

--media is religiously biased. There is a good joke in joke section on US media reportining. Really funny & pathetic ,too.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;


A Hierarchy of Death



By Roy Greenslade

Why do 32 deaths in Virginia receive blanket coverage while nearly 200 fatalities in Iraq are barely reported?


replies:

Human Souls have different rates/values in the Wester Free Media Market...


We all know by now that humans' souls in the Western Media Free Markets have different Rates or Values. The coverage depends on which souls we're talking...



An American Soul or an Israeli Soul or a British or a French or a Canadian soul or a Swiss Soul have always been of a higher "value" than any other useless Third World human soul hence the degree of coverage by the Western "Free" Media...


http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/1...jc_allComments

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[Joe98]

……..do u think Americans should also remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation ?

When a US soldier shoots an innocent, all America feels bad.

When a US soldier shoots a bomber who has just killed 100 Iraqi women and children, America rejoices.

When Sunni and Shiia kill each other by the hundreds, it’s not the fault of Americans!

-

[Keltoi]

When you say "ours" what do you mean? Muslims? If I'm not mistaken one or two of the victims at Virginia Tech were Muslims. Do you mean "our" pain referring to Arabs? Same story as the first. When terrorists blow up 100 innocent people in an Iraqi marketplace everyone feels disgust and sorrow for those whose lives are destroyed because of it. Americans have a hard time understanding the senseless slaughter of innocent Iraqis by other Iraqis and outside groups, and we have an even harder time understanding senseless violence in our own backyard, especially a school.

[Abdul Fattah]

Actually if you take a step back from the whole situation and look at history you will find that American governmental and military agency's have influenced the political landscape tremendously and have even encouraged the sunni-shia split to come to this point. They set up a shia-puppet-government in Iran and a sunni-puppet-government in Iraq. They provide both with weapons and dreams of power. And let nature take it course. It's not divide and conquer, but more like devide and take the oil trough the back door while everybody's looking at (or for) the WMD's.

So did "the Americans" provide that idiot with a bomb and told 'm to push the button on a market? No they didn't.
Can they wash their hands in innocence and claim to have no involvement? not quite either. They probably didn't expect it to escalate to this point, I'll grant you that, but there was malevolence involved at some time.

[Keltoi]

Actually if you take a step back from the whole situation and look at history you will find that American governmental and military agency's have influenced the political landscape tremendously and have even encouraged the sunni-shia split to come to this point. They set up a shia-puppet-government in Iran and a sunni-puppet-government in Iraq. They provide both with weapons and dreams of power. And let nature take it course. It's not divide and conquer, but more like devide and take the oil trough the back door while everybody's looking at (or for) the WMD's.

So did "the Americans" provide that idiot with a bomb and told 'm to push the button on a market? No they didn't.
Can they wash their hands in innocence and claim to have no involvement? not quite either. They probably didn't expect it to escalate to this point, I'll grant you that, but there was malevolence involved at some time.

This conspiracy might actually make sense if any oil was actually being shipped to the U.S. out of Iraq, which it isn't. Not to mention that it has nothing to do with the topic.

[Abdul Fattah]

LOL, I c what you did there, you took my "take trough the back door" as literal whereas I meant it metaphorically. It's not a conspiracy theory when the things I'm saying is public knowledge and well documented.

[Keltoi]

LOL, I c what you did there, you took my "take trough the back door" as literal whereas I meant it metaphorically. It's not a conspiracy theory when the things I'm saying is public knowledge and well documented.

What is well documented? Oil, which is always a factor in foreign policy for every country, has little to nothing to do with the situation we find ourselves in now. Like I said though, this has nothing to do with the topic.

[Abdul Fattah]

What is well documented? Oil, which is always a factor in foreign policy for every country, has little to nothing to do with the situation we find ourselves in now. Like I said though, this has nothing to do with the topic.

Yes it's off topic, my apologies. If you didn't want me to answer it here then maybe you shouldn't have asked in the first place.
As for documented, it refered to almost everything I said about the political influence. I've done my homework, have you done yours?

[Keltoi]

Yes it's off topic, my apologies. If you didn't want me to answer it here then maybe you shouldn't have asked in the first place.
As for documented, it refered to almost everything I said about the political influence. I've done my homework, have you done yours?

Your "homework" is the Google search engine? Okay. Anyway, back on topic.

[.:Umniyah:.]

When you say "ours" what do you mean? Muslims? If I'm not mistaken one or two of the victims at Virginia Tech were Muslims. Do you mean "our" pain referring to Arabs? Same story as the first. When terrorists blow up 100 innocent people in an Iraqi marketplace everyone feels disgust and sorrow for those whose lives are destroyed because of it. Americans have a hard time understanding the senseless slaughter of innocent Iraqis by other Iraqis and outside groups, and we have an even harder time understanding senseless violence in our own backyard, especially a school.

When it says "ours" it quit obviously mean the bled shed going on amongst WHOEVER lives in Iraq and goes thru it. Rather it be Muslim christian or jew. Rather it be Arab, chinese, or American. WHOEVER. Just as how everyone in america isnt american, nor is everyone one religion its the same thing everywhere else in the world. So dont try to be so technical. Thats half the problem with people now a days, they pay such GREAT attention to foolish details which concerns nothing at all. Try paying attention to the BIGGER picture, instead of taking words and trying to make them fit the bill. Its clear english and an even clearer concept. IM MUSLIM. IM AMERICAN. now tell me which pain should i feel? tell me which "our" could possibly apply to me? Which side could i possibly take? Which BACKYARD belongs to me and the likes of me??? Since foolish technicalities seems to be prevalent now a days.

AND PLEASE! America hasnt had a hard time understand didly swat , they UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY! HOWWWWWWWWW SUCH THINGS ARE POSSIBLE! Dont try to so easily wash the blood off of their oh so BLOOD stained hands, CORRUPT FROM the flithy core and covered in shameless sin. A goverment who shall burn in the deepest walls of hell if not guided by Allah before they die. YOu want to talk about disgusted? LOOK in your own backyard, STUDY YOUR OWN BACKYARD...or should i say OUR backyard seeing how AMERICAN i so unproudly happen to be. HOw easily they destort the truth and bury their crimes beneath the belt of innocent minds. HOw DISGUSTING a country who makes its own laws and try to run the rest of the world by the own laws and thought pattern because they feel like it.

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

So yeah keep trying to figure out the crimes of the innocent, and beware of the one who runs his mouth from everything he HEARS!

Praise Be to Allah Lord of the Aalamin, The bestower of light and mercy, The Forgiver THE ONE! And may the Salaat and Salaams be upon The prophet Muhammad!!

[Keltoi]

When it says "ours" it quit obviously mean the bled shed going on amongst WHOEVER lives in Iraq and goes thru it. Rather it be Muslim christian or jew. Rather it be Arab, chinese, or American. WHOEVER. Just as how everyone in america isnt american, nor is everyone one religion its the same thing everywhere else in the world. So dont try to be so technical. Thats half the problem with people now a days, they pay such GREAT attention to foolish details which concerns nothing at all. Try paying attention to the BIGGER picture, instead of taking words and trying to make them fit the bill. Its clear english and an even clearer concept. IM MUSLIM. IM AMERICAN. now tell me which pain should i feel? tell me which "our" could possibly apply to me? Which side could i possibly take? Which BACKYARD belongs to me and the likes of me??? Since foolish technicalities seems to be prevalent now a days.

AND PLEASE! America hasnt had a hard time understand didly swat , they UNDERSTAND PERFECTLY! HOWWWWWWWWW SUCH THINGS ARE POSSIBLE! Dont try to so easily wash the blood off of their oh so BLOOD stained hands, CORRUPT FROM the flithy core and covered in shameless sin. A goverment who shall burn in the deepest walls of hell if not guided by Allah before they die. YOu want to talk about disgusted? LOOK in your own backyard, STUDY YOUR OWN BACKYARD...or should i say OUR backyard seeing how AMERICAN i so unproudly happen to be. HOw easily they destort the truth and bury their crimes beneath the belt of innocent minds. HOw DISGUSTING a country who makes its own laws and try to run the rest of the world by the own laws and thought pattern because they feel like it.

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

So yeah keep trying to figure out the crimes of the innocent, and beware of the one who runs his mouth from everything he HEARS!

Praise Be to Allah Lord of the Aalamin, The bestower of light and mercy, The Forgiver THE ONE! And may the Salaat and Salaams be upon The prophet Muhammad!!

Well well. Quite a little tirade there. First of all, you used the word "our" not me, so you are the one who turned into "us" and "them" so to speak. As for the rest of this hateful post, it isn't worth responding to.

[.:Umniyah:.]

Well well. Quite a little tirade there. First of all, you used the word "our" not me, so you are the one who turned into "us" and "them" so to speak. As for the rest of this hateful post, it isn't worth responding to.

which is what most americans do when the tables are turned, its okay to say the world against anyone else, and any other country but whenever someone turns the tables, no one wants to speak and address it. Thats right follow the root of your leder " God bless america"...oh yeah tell us bush.

and as for trying to undermind me, you can save it, dont repsond because you have nothing to say, which is the case often with your kind, your whole theory is just "believe" anyway isnt it? dont put your foot in a door which swings both ways, your bound to get hit on the way out. IM content with my life, i have no hate against ANYONE or ANYthing, lifes too short and my prays arent long enough to feel i have time for such foolishness. I have a goal, and its not this. My Lord set me on this earth for a purpose, and thats to serve him, which i intend to do. But every now and then i must speak out on such rubbish and set the record.

Call it hate. But its actually called speaking the truth, take or leave it my dear.

[Keltoi]

which is what most americans do when the tables are turned, its okay to say the world against anyone else, and any other country but whenever someone turns the tables, no one wants to speak and address it. Thats right follow the root of your leder " God bless america"...oh yeah tell us bush.

and as for trying to undermind me, you can save it, dont repsond because you have nothing to say, which is the case often with your kind, your whole theory is just "believe" anyway isnt it? dont put your foot in a door which swings both ways, your bound to get hit on the way out. IM content with my life, i have no hate against ANYONE or ANYthing, lifes too short and my prays arent long enough to feel i have time for such foolishness. I have a goal, and its not this. My Lord set me on this earth for a purpose, and thats to serve him, which i intend to do. But every now and then i must speak out on such rubbish and set the record.

Call it hate. But its actually called speaking the truth, take or leave it my dear.

My "kind"? Please, you are entitled to your opinion, regardless of what I think about it. I'm not sure what "tables" you are trying to turn though. I can feel bad about 32 college kids dying and still feel bad about Iraqis butchering each other every day. If you want to start a thread about how much you hate Bush and Americans, fine, do it somewhere else. However, there is no reason to bring 32 dead college kids into your political theater.

[.:Umniyah:.]

My "kind"? Please, you are entitled to your opinion, regardless of what I think about it. I'm not sure what "tables" you are trying to turn though. I can feel bad about 32 college kids dying and still feel bad about Iraqis butchering each other every day. If you want to start a thread about how much you hate Bush and Americans, fine, do it somewhere else. However, there is no reason to bring 32 dead college kids into your political theater.

1st of all keltoi im very aware of what i can and cant do, thanks for the reminder though. and secondly, know that i have no need to hat Bush nor americans, if you take the time and read up I AM american. I would BE the same thing im speaking agaisnt if i ever thought that the whole of america deserved to be hated or disliked or whatever, understand correctly. I feel sorry for ANY race, religion, color, naitoinalty, or WHATEVER of people who die in the name of nothing, no one cares who they were or where they lived, that doesnt make any difference in the way they were killed, so its sad anywhere in the world. But what irritates me , is how you continou to say " iraqis killing iraqis" just because thats all the media chosing to show you or tell you doesnt mean thats the case. The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there. Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

So in the end my problem is how brianwashed people seem to be, and how no one even took notice how easily they brushed "choy" off as a murder rather than terriost and how never once did his religion come in to play, and how they so QUICKLY went right into he had some sort of mental disorder, or was DEPRESSED. So, dont mix around my words, no one is saying that i dont care about the 31 students killed ( and yes 31 because choy was the 32nd person) because thats untrue. But the original poster only posted something to show how the people in iraq feel that way EVERY moment of their lives since america decided to be so "helpful" im sorry but the last time i checked, when a people says they dont want your help, you should kind of not give it.

and regrdeless of what you and i think, their reality stands, and the same anger and sadness the families of those 31 victims feel, is how iraqis feel against america for raping and killing their people , just because they can.

And ive failed to see the objective of them even being over there, originally it was for some weapons of massive destruction, then it was for Usama bin laden, then it was for Saddam Hussein...6 years later and neither of the 3 turn up EXCEPT saddam whom was hung....so no whats the story? one mintue usama is dead, the next he isnt,the next he is, the next he isnt? What kind of joke is this?

but nonetheless this is Goodnight because it is late. To you be your way and to me be mine.
:)

[shible]

:sl:

A real good Post


Masha Allah


:w:

[guyabano]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

....

hmmmm, imagine 30 times bigger...hmm.. ya know, there come the Twin Towers in USA to my mind. All what I saw on Al Jazeera were people in Bagdad cheering on the streets for the thousands, who have been killed. Is that the way, 'YOU' feel the pain ? oh well...

[Knahlidge]

As Salaamu Alaikum Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu to my Ummah! Greetings to All others. Alright, I have "Carefully" read through each reply and have come to the conclusion that this recent WAKE UP CALL for our Nation has jarred many emotions on EVERY SCALE. What perplexes me however since the day this senselessness happened is "WHY" this tragedy has been used and "Clearly Manipulated" to give voice to the undercurrents of the "Religious Unrest" in this Country. Let us FOCUS on the FACTS shall we?

FACT 1. Mr. Cho had "personal issues" he decided to "unload" (no pun intended) on anyone in his path being too much of a COWARD to go by himself.

FACT 2. The WORST FACT of ALL.....His parents DESPERATELY tried to check him into a facility for help. They were involved they saw the signs and DID NOT just LET this happen. The "Doctors" signed him out against the PLEAS of his parents and NUMEROUS recommendations for psychiatric help from the counselors and even complaints from some of the parents of the late students and a teacher. Please let us also remember the shooters parent who "desperately" tried to save their son and "prevent" harm to himself and others.

Cause: DWINDLING Governmental Morality. Effect: Catastrophic LOSS OF LIFE and atrocities of monstrous proportions in EVERY city and EVERY "Occupied" Country.REGARDLESS of their choice of Faith.Walallahu Alim (And ALLAH knows Best!) "EARTH! I Feel YOUR pain...Do you feel MINE?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Dua's : Our Lord(Ya Rabbi)! And grant us that which you have promised to us by Your messengers and save us from shame on the Day of Judgement. Verily You never fail to fulfill Your promise. (3:194)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

When you say "ours" what do you mean? Muslims?

Ummm, I mean thousands & thousands of innocent lives who died because of America.



If a fish is dying in the ocean or any animal is trapped somewhere , so many people get worried , try to save the valuable life of that fish /animal…..ya , that’s good . They have rights to live in this world , too.

But when hundreds peoples death go almost unnoticed in the mainstream media , don’t u feel it’s inhumane ?

Compare the news coverage of the media about 32 death vs thousands death caused by US ……hopefully u will understand what I m trying to say.

When Sunni and Shiia  kill each other  by the hundreds, it's not the fault of Americans!

---read the article of Robert Fisk . Americans were in charge of the Shia mosque ; only when they left , bomb blasted & innocent people died.

It was impossible for any Sunni/Shia or criminals to put the bombs inside the mosque when it was totally under US control.


UK soldiers were caught with bombs & Brit units snatched them away from police station breaking their walls. LOL. I gave these examples more than once …don’t have patience to write in details now.


other replies of the article : imagine if the Virginia Tech Shooting Were Thirty Times Larger



I was DEEPLY offened at Bush's ordering of the U.S. Flag to be flown at half mast for the VT massacre.



If loosing 32 18-22 year olds in Virginia is worthy of the flag being flown at half mast -- how about 3,000 18-42 year olds in Iraq and Afghanistan?



Personally I think we should fly the flag at half mast until this war is over. Maybe it will help remind people of the CONSTANT sacrifice that is being made.


&&



I cant thank you enough for this post. Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Millions displaced or homeless. This is unprovoked, premeditated murder on a grand scale.


If the people of Iraq were cattle Americans would be appalled.



How do you explain this callas indifference to human suffering. Is it just because Iraqis are brown? Are all people around the world as cold and uncaring as Americans?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...t_b_46134.html

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

hmmmm, imagine 30 times bigger...hmm.. ya know, there come the Twin Towers in USA to my mind. All what I saw on Al Jazeera were people in Bagdad cheering on the streets for the thousands, who have been killed. Is that the way, 'YOU' feel the pain ? oh well...

i have heard that CNN showed some cheerful Muslims after the 9/11 tragedy. I guess , they did that to show solidarity with Palestine Muslims who are suffering under zionists ( with the help of US ) since decades.

May be , they thought now it will be possible for Americans to understand the pain of the opressed Muslims. The cevere pain their thousands of Muslims brothers & sisters went / are going through .

anyway , No Muslim should feel happy at other people's sorrow ......it's un-Islamic .

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....

---ya , a very good point. Media ALWAYS relate crime with religion when even the accused person is a Muslim. Media don't do the same when the proved criminal is a non-Muslim. LOL

[tomtomsmom]

I can not speak for every American. I can only speak for myself.

Yes the school shootings here were terrible. I feel sorry for all of the people affected. And I am outraged that it happened.

Just as I am outraged from the killings in Iraq. The starving citizens of Africa and the refugees in Darfur, the homeless, the victims, the hated, the blacks, the whites, the browns, the pink with purple polka-dots. Any person that is being dealt an unjust life.

As far as the media coverage goes, I was having this same conversation with my mother the other day. I get very.......upset with what is going on in the world as a whole. She is completely oblivious. She only watches the news long enough to see the weather and then it is something else. I told her that as a whole Americans have to demand to know what is really going on and then do something about it. She simply shook her head and said that if we knew what was going in then it would shatter the illusion that everything is going to be OK.


I am a mother. My number one job in this world is to protect my child. I do not want him to grow up in this world. I do not want him to see the hate and evil that I have seen. So my answer to the question is, YES sister I feel the pain of the world and it scares me to death. My concern is how can it be stopped so my little boy doesn't have to grow up and feel it too?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

... YES sister I feel the pain of the world and it scares me to death. My concern is how can it be stopped so my little boy doesn't have to grow up and feel it too?

--hope , many more Americans will start thinking like u & also do something to stop evil Bush.
( is it possible for devil to come in to this world as human form ?? )


An American mom Cindy Seehan is calling other moms to join her in a protest rally on ( I forgot now …..13 or 14 May 2007 ). I WISH HER ALL THE BEST.

[Keltoi]

This thread seems more like another in a long list of threads dedicated to blaming the U.S. for Iraqis slaughtering themselves, with a few statements about how wrong it is for Americans to mourn 32 dead college kids because there is a war going on. Oh, and somebody was "offended" that the American flag is at half mast. God forbid Americans have a reaction when Americans die.

[tomtomsmom]

This thread seems more like another in a long list of threads dedicated to blaming the U.S. for Iraqis slaughtering themselves, with a few statements about how wrong it is for Americans to mourn 32 dead college kids because there is a war going on. Oh, and somebody was "offended" that the American flag is at half mast. God forbid Americans have a reaction when Americans die.

I agree that the flag should be flown at half mast for the VT students. HOWEVER it should also be flown at half mast for every American that dies fighting in any war.

[Keltoi]

I agree that the flag should be flown at half mast for the VT students. HOWEVER it should also be flown at half mast for every American that dies fighting in any war.

Well, flying the flag at half mast is largely reserved for national tragedies and the death of leaders. When a soldier dies you fly the flag high. Yes, it is a tragedy for the family and friends of the deceased soldier, but the expected action of the U.S. government and people is not to lower the flag, but to fly it high and support those who are still in harms way. It is a way to honor the dead. Military and American tradition, in other words.

[tomtomsmom]

Well, flying the flag at half mast is largely reserved for national tragedies and the death of leaders. When a soldier dies you fly the flag high. Yes, it is a tragedy for the family and friends of the deceased soldier, but the expected action of the U.S. government and people is not to lower the flag, but to fly it high and support those who are still in harms way. It is a way to honor the dead. Military and American tradition, in other words.

No offense but I know all about the military traditions with flags. A week ago today I sat and watched my grandfather's flag get folded and handed to me right before they put him in the ground.

My point is-every soldier that dies in battle should be a national tragedy. Not a 3 second blip on the evening news.

[Keltoi]

No offense but I know all about the military traditions with flags. A week ago today I sat and watched my grandfather's flag get folded and handed to me right before they put him in the ground.

My point is-every soldier that dies in battle should be a national tragedy. Not a 3 second blip on the evening news.

I wasn't suggesting it wasn't a national tragedy. My family has a large collection of folded American flags dating back to World War I. I understand what you mean, don't think I don't. The nation should be thankful for your grandfather's service, and thankful for all those who gave their most prized possession in service to their country.

[.:Umniyah:.]

This thread seems more like another in a long list of threads dedicated to blaming the U.S. for Iraqis slaughtering themselves, with a few statements about how wrong it is for Americans to mourn 32 dead college kids because there is a war going on. Oh, and somebody was "offended" that the American flag is at half mast. God forbid Americans have a reaction when Americans die.

And this seems to be your very obviously wrong preception. When you seem to think american is scott free of any crimes in Iraq....If in so this is the case then for the 2nd time WHAT ON EARTH ARE THEY DOING OVER THERE!! People refuse, namely americans, to accept that beautiful ol america could possibly be responsible for any such thing. BUT then again in beautiful ol america is where more than HALF the serious criminals and idiots come from.

And get over this dumb concept that anyone on here is saying its wrong to mourn the death of anyone. Someone could have a heartattack and die over over his pet fly and no one should have a thing to say to the one who mourns that persons death. So stop digging up buried bones. Because that statment is way dead and long dismissed because everyone keeps saying over and over that NO ONE has a problem with you or anyone else mourning over whatever they want.

and besides this, has not ANYone on here watched Alex Joness' video on the 9/11 ordeal, the one entittled 'Loose Change'. Well if you HAVENT watched it, then watch and be enlightened.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...s+Loose+Change

And besides this Keltoi, im surprised at your standing so firmly behind a country who pretty much goes agaisnt every LAW in your book. And I say this because your way of life says "christian" How is it possible to stand behind america so firmly, and be christian at the same time? when america doesnt hold one moral law of christianity in their "man made" laws....how could you follow the Laws of God in the "bible" then turn right around and support whole heartedly a country built on everything BUT what Jesus taught.

As for me, I am american, i am half puerto rican too, and i am a human race, but ABOVE ALL of that! i am a MUSLIM, and i dislike anyone, or anything who/that go against what Allah teaches in his Holy Book Al Quran. So no its nothing about hate, and i disliked greatly how someone could be so ignorant as to kill people because "he felt like he had to do what he had to do, when the time came" but at the same time, Me disliking Choy actions makes me no more patriotic than i was 2 weeks ago. The death of 31 students is sad and upsetting to think about, but it doesnt justify anymore americas government actions.

[Keltoi]

People refuse, namely americans, to accept that beautiful ol america could possibly be responsible for any such thing. BUT then again in beautiful ol america is where more than HALF the serious criminals and idiots come from.

Very constructive.

and besides this, has not ANYone on here watched Alex Joness' video on the 9/11 ordeal, the one entittled 'Loose Change'. Well if you HAVENT watched it, then watch and be enlightened.

That tells me alot of where you're coming from.

And besides this Keltoi, im surprised at your standing so firmly behind a country who pretty much goes agaisnt every LAW in your book. And I say this because your way of life says "christian" How is it possible to stand behind america so firmly, and be christian at the same time?

I am a Christian living in a secular country. I believe in democracy and secular government, even if I don't agree with many things going on in the country because of my faith.

The death of 31 students is sad and upsetting to think about, but it doesnt justify anymore americas government actions.

I don't remember anyone suggesting 32 dead college students justified anything. This thread was about drawing some sort of moral parallel between Americans mourning dead kids and the Iraq War, when in my mind there is no parallel.

[.:Umniyah:.]

Very constructive.



That tells me alot of where you're coming from.


Just say you refuse to watch the truth. It can tell you whatever you want it to, but did you watch it? Judge off facts not off what you think exprience has taught you.
I am a Christian living in a secular country. I believe in democracy and secular government, even if I don't agree with many things going on in the country because of my faith.

And thats okay for you, but to me it sounds really impossible. How can you believe one thing and support another? That doesnt make any sense at all. When someone believes in something truthfully they support it, stand behind it, and if needed will DIE for it. Juses didnt teach democracy so how can you believe in it? He taught his people to believe in GOD!!!!!! LAWS, not the laws that mankind thought to be Good for themselves aka democracy.



I don't remember anyone suggesting 32 dead college students justified anything. This thread was about drawing some sort of moral parallel between Americans mourning dead kids and the Iraq War, when in my mind there is no parallel.

And just because no one suggested it doesnt mean i cant make a statment now does it? I said that because so many people do that, i didnt say you or anyone else suggested it on HERE but its what happens everytime a tragedy happens in america, they stand behind AMERICA....wheres the praise to God for the ones who were merely injuried and didnt die? Wheres Gods name for the ability he gave to the police officers and ambulance who got there in time to save 20 plus lives of the injuired....but rather its a bunch of jubberish about america and bush and flags being flown. Show some Repsect and THAT MUCH PRAISE to the Lord who allowed man to ever created the stupid flag, PLAGE an ALLIGANCE to GOD, not some red white and blue cloth that'll turn into dust jus like the human in the casket they wrap it around. This is my issue here, pay attention to the bigger picture of your life, and you'll see how much you support this country and stand behind its every word...if you paid that much attention to the Lord above you'd be a very righteous pious person. As would be the case with every american who praise the country rather the one who created it. democracy holds NO vaule in a truly religious person heart, nor does it stand in any religion.

[Keltoi]

And just because no one suggested it doesnt mean i cant make a statment now does it? I said that because so many people do that, i didnt say you or anyone else suggested it on HERE but its what happens everytime a tragedy happens in america, they stand behind AMERICA....wheres the praise to God for the ones who were merely injuried and didnt die? Wheres Gods name for the ability he gave to the police officers and ambulance who got there in time to save 20 plus lives of the injuired....but rather its a bunch of jubberish about america and bush and flags being flown. Show some Repsect and THAT MUCH PRAISE to the Lord who allowed man to ever created the stupid flag, PLAGE an ALLIGANCE to GOD, not some red white and blue cloth that'll turn into dust jus like the human in the casket they wrap it around. This is my issue here, pay attention to the bigger picture of your life, and you'll see how much you support this country and stand behind its every word...if you paid that much attention to the Lord above you'd be a very righteous pious person. As would be the case with every american who praise the country rather the one who created it. democracy holds NO vaule in a truly religious person heart, nor does it stand in any religion.

Democracy, especially constitutional democracy, has value to me because it is the most tolerant and stable form of government yet invented. Does it equal religious perfection? No. I don't expect it to. I'm free to worship as I see fit, and live my life the best I know how. You don't believe in nationalism, that is fine, but I am patriotic and I love my country. That doesn't interfere with my faith.

[.:Umniyah:.]

Democracy, especially constitutional democracy, has value to me because it is the most tolerant and stable form of government yet invented. Does it equal religious perfection? No. I don't expect it to. I'm free to worship as I see fit, and live my life the best I know how. You don't believe in nationalism, that is fine, but I am patriotic and I love my country. That doesn't interfere with my faith.

Which is a prime reason why, when a person wants to learn about something, study the THING not the PEOPLE of it. You keep following how you do. And i'll keep living by Gods Laws.

[Keltoi]

Which is a prime reason why, when a person wants to learn about something, study the THING not the PEOPLE of it. You keep following how you do. And i'll keep living by Gods Laws.

What "thing", democracy? You say live by God's Laws. You live in the U.S. If you can follow God's Laws and still live in a secular country, what is the point you're trying to make? I follow God's Laws to the best of my ability too, and I live in a secular country. Are you the only one special enough to follow God's Laws and live in a secular society?

[Muezzin]

Wait a second. This discussion has kind of veered away from the first post. Secularism is a valid discussion in a thread of its own.

[Keltoi]

Wait a second. This discussion has kind of veered away from the first post. Secularism is a valid discussion in a thread of its own.

It's probably my fault for responding to off-topic posts.

[Muezzin]

It's probably my fault for responding to off-topic posts.

Well, I'm not pointing any fingers since it won't really solve the problem.

Everyone, any off-topic posts after this post will be deleted.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Keltoi :

God forbid Americans have a reaction when Americans die.

--nobody is telling u not to mourn over tragic death in USA.


But does it mean that 200 deaths under US occupation will be ignored by the media & US people will act normally day after day when because of their country VC tragedy are taking place daily in other countries ?



How many died in 9/11 tragedy ?3 thousands
( maximum ) & how many innocent people killed by America while taking revenge ? 25 thousands
( it's the minimum no: admitted by US President also ....remember his famous remark about the civilian killing in Iraq )?


IF ur heart bleeds for 31 students ( i m not saying that u must not feel
sad ) ; also try to feel the pain of thousands ( if not millions ) of Iraqi & Afghan mothers who lost their kids because of USA. Is it too much to expect ?


also another question came in to mind about the media . Don't u think , time has come ( actually people should have raised this question long ago against media ) about the news treatment .

This joke may help u to understand the double standard of the media .



A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog .



He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl's life.


A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: "You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers: "Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl"


The man says: - "But I am not a New Yorker!"


"Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: 'Brave American saves life of little girl'" – the policeman answers.


"But I am not an American!" – says the man. "Oh, what are you then? "

The man says: - "I am a Saudi !"


The next day the newspapers says: "Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.

Joke posted by bro Azhar786


Ok, forget about Iraqi & Afghan people. Think about dead Americans . u can read article of a mom & Yes , she is an American.



Who Grieves For Them?


By Mary Pitt

They fly home under cover of night and then are treated as baggage on commercial flights until they are taken to their home town.



Their family, friends, and neighbors turn out for their funeral with none taking notice.


http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17581.htm



While spending my usual Sunday morning, watching the news shows on television, I founds myself in total empathy with the parents of the slain college students at Virgina Tech.



Having lost a child of my own a year ago, I understand intimately the pain which they now must bear.

….Without taking a thing from the sympathy for the Blacksburg parents, I realized that these young people who are dying in Iraq are contemporaries of the college kids.


Who grieves for them?


While we have lost a hundred children in that conflagration for every student who fell prey to the mad gunner, the nation mourns only those who were presumably safe from harm while those who fell in service to our country are hidden from our sight and rarely mentioned by name unless they qualify as "heroes".

[Keltoi]

Muslim Woman:

But does it mean that 200 deaths under US occupation will be ignored by the media & US people will act normally day after day when because of their country VC tragedy are taking place daily in other countries

Ignored by the media? I wake up every morning to stories about 100 Iraqis, 50 Iraqis, 30 Iraqis,etc, killed in suicide market bombings, hospitals, schools, etc. The media isn't ignoring Iraqi civilian deaths. You can argue about why they are so keen to cover the issue, but that is another thread.

IF ur heart bleeds for 31 students ( i m not saying that u must not feel
sad ) ; also try to feel the pain of thousands ( if not millions ) of Iraqi & Afghan mothers who lost their kids because of USA. Is it too much to expect ?

What makes you think Americans don't care about the issue? Of course we care. That is what will get Americans out of Iraq, when people aren't getting killed on a daily basis. You seem to believe it is the fault of Americans and the government that suicide bombers are blowing up civilians right and left. I agree that the U.S. responsible, but in a different way than you do. The U.S. is responsible for a power vaccum, not for making Iraqis slaughter each other. All that being said, I'm sure most Americans are effected by the stories they see of Iraqi civilians being blown up and butchered like cattle. Because of the senselessness and the inhumane brutality. Americans feel helpless, not emotionless.

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Americans feel that Iraqi situation doesn't improve their security, that's why they worried, otherwise who gives a heck about Iraqis dying?(generally speaking), it would've been OK for Americans no matter how many are dying as long as it improves their safety(generally speaking again).

The support for the war was and still is(or what's left of it) found on fear and revenge, americans wanned to secure/get back on the middle east, doesn't really matter what country in particular, as long as it's muslim.

That's why when people got to know that the official pretense was just a blatant lie, impeaching Bush wasn't even on the agenda, Bush went as far as joking about it, while Clinton was about to get impeached for being unfaithful to his wife and lying about it.

When official reason wasn't there any longer, support for war remained(more or less), americans are still believing their troops doing the job, they only criticize the methods of achieving it, but not the fact it's an illegal invasion, no WMD"s... bla bla bla, it doesnt really matter, security matters.

People wanned actions after 9/11, they got it, and reelected Bush cos he delivered what people wanned - tough response. Any candidate who is gonna talk about world peace, immediate pull-out and doing stuff diplomatically is gonna loose, try to find a candidate for american president with real chances who says about peacefull solution to world problems(islamic threat as a main one).

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;


Keltoi :

Ignored by the media?   I wake up every morning to stories about 100 Iraqis, 50 Iraqis, 30 Iraqis,etc

---yap , dead Iraqi people are numbers to US media , that’s why u heard about the statistics only and not the human interest stories / featurised news that touches our emotions behind the numbers.

Read the 2nd post of this thread.

..... what will get Americans out of Iraq, when people aren't getting killed on a daily basis.

---OH MY GOD.

First it was WMD , then …..i forgot now ……cruelty of Saddam or 9/11 linking ??? NOW , if no more killing …..fine .

Insha Allah , I will try to find the article of Robert Fisk where he described how the US army is behind this.

Americans feel helpless, not emotionless.

- And they showed their emotions /support through election. Bush is their DEAR PRESIDENT.

[Keltoi]

Muslim Woman:

---yap , dead Iraqi people are numbers to US media , that’s why u heard about the statistics only and not the human interest stories / featurised news that touches our emotions behind the numbers.

We might see some human interest stories if journalists weren't in danger of being beheaded for being out in the street.

---OH MY GOD.

First it was WMD , then …..i forgot now ……cruelty of Saddam or 9/11 linking ??? NOW , if no more killing …..fine .

Insha Allah , I will try to find the article of Robert Fisk where he described how the US army is behind this.

This isn't about what got us to where we are, but how to get out of it. Americans would leave tomorrow if there was semblance of stability in Iraq. The irony behind these attacks and bombings meant to cause chaos is that they only harden the U.S. stance.

And they showed their emotions /support through election. Bush is their DEAR PRESIDENT

.

Bush is their "dear" president? I guess he must not be too "dear" with a 32% approval rating.

[Sami Zaatari]

Muslim Woman:


We might see some human interest stories if journalists weren't in danger of being beheaded for being out in the street.

---OH MY GOD.


This isn't about what got us to where we are, but how to get out of it. Americans would leave tomorrow if there was semblance of stability in Iraq. The irony behind these attacks and bombings meant to cause chaos is that they only harden the U.S. stance.




Bush is their "dear" president? I guess he must not be too "dear" with a 32% approval rating.

good point, america will leave if there was stability, and the country was very stable when saddam was there, :) america goes in and destabilizes the whole place. i mean at least if america found WMD's they could have an excuse, yet the WMD's were never found which was the main reason for the war, and the whole region got destabilized all because of cooked up fake evidence. :) and its late here, good night.

[Grace Seeker]

good point, america will leave if there was stability, and the country was very stable when saddam was there, :) america goes in and destabilizes the whole place. i mean at least if america found WMD's they could have an excuse, yet the WMD's were never found which was the main reason for the war, and the whole region got destabilized all because of cooked up fake evidence. :) and its late here, good night.

I find myself in general agreement with the basic thoughts of this post.

I can't speak for all Americans, in fact I fear I can't even speak for most Americans, but I think several contrasting things are true and hold them all at the same time:
1) The USA should have never invaded Iraq to oust Saddam Hussein
2) Ousting Saddam Hussein is the one right thing that the USA has done in this war.
3) The USA should get out of Iraq as quickly as possible. By staying we perpetuate the existing conflict.
4) Leaving an unstable Iraq would be the only thing worse than what we have already done. So we can't leave unless we are willing to watch Iraq self-destruct and know that we set those events in motion.


I don't have a solution. I think our present political leadership is unable to come up with a solution and gropes about blindly in the wrong direction, but I don't have a better option.

In answer to this thread's original question, yes, I do feel your pain. I grieve over the children who have witnessed so much horror with their own eyes that they might never be whole persons again. I weep for families who say good-bye to one another for a trip to something as simple as to buy food and realize it could be the last time they ever see one another. I silently scream at the reports of doors being kicked in by people looking for everything from terrorists in hiding to someone to kidnap for ransom. And I am outraged at the senselessness of the whole thing from the American occupation to the obvious internal civil war all in the name of what? Of peace? Of internaltional security? Of a right of self determination? Of taking control of the government? Tell that to the dead and wounded. Tell that to the dispossed? Tell that to the homeless, the helpless, the hopeless. I don't think the world (America, Iraq, or any place else) is a better place for all the conflict. The only ones who have won anything are those who like to promote hate.

[Keltoi]

good point, america will leave if there was stability, and the country was very stable when saddam was there, :) america goes in and destabilizes the whole place. i mean at least if america found WMD's they could have an excuse, yet the WMD's were never found which was the main reason for the war, and the whole region got destabilized all because of cooked up fake evidence. :) and its late here, good night.

The goal of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. The goal now is stability..post-Saddam.

[Grace Seeker]

The goal of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. The goal now is stability..post-Saddam.

That may be the case, but we have planned and executed this war terribly. If that is all that it was about we could have been in and out 3 years ago.

[Keltoi]

That may be the case, but we have planned and executed this war terribly. If that is all that it was about we could have been in and out 3 years ago.

Taking out Saddam was the easy part. I agree with you though, we should have left 3 years ago and left the country to sort out its own power vaccum. However, people, meaning the civilian leadership, thought it would be better to play policeman for a few years in the middle of a bloodbath. There are alot of could have, should have, but in the end we are there and must try to reach some kind of acceptable outcome, i.e stability.

[guyabano]

Salaam/peace;

---ya , a very good point. Media ALWAYS relate crime with religion when even the accused person is a Muslim. Media don't do the same when the proved criminal is a non-Muslim. LOL

Yes, it is sad to hear, but fact is also, History show us, that most wars have been led in the name of a God or a religion, and sad to say, actually, in the 20/21st Century, Islam is always in the headlines. So people worldwide get fed up with that.
Now, who can we blame for that? The medias or the ones who do these crimes?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Islam is always in the headlines. So people worldwide get fed up with that.
Now, who can we blame for that? The medias or the ones who do these crimes?

--sorry , i did not get ur point.

Take example of Sri Lanka.... i always heard of Tamil Guerillas (!) fighting with Govt---no mention of religion.

Are they Hindus , Buddist , Christians ? IF they were Muslims , surely MEDIA would have related this war /unrest with religion.

I don't have courage to think that if the korean student were a Muslim , how media surely have started propaganda against ISLAM & Muslim.



NOW , i don't know if he was a Christian or Atheist or what ? It's for sure that he was not a Muslim ; Islam just escaped a media trial........thanks God.



But , still , there is a chance /risk . If someone claims that he was a revert MUSLIM , then media won't miss that chance .....i m sure about that.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

The goal of the war was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. The goal now is stability..post-Saddam.

Cheney: Iraq pullout would hurt Israel :

"We must consider, as well, just what a precipitous withdrawal would mean to our other efforts in the war on terror, to our interests in the broader Middle East, and to Israel,"

the U.S. vice president said over the weekend to a Republican Jewish Coalition leadership gathering in Latana, Fla.


http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/100844.html

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

...We might see some human interest stories if journalists weren't in danger of being beheaded for being out in the street.

----huh , Bush wanted to drop bomb on
Al -Jazeera off. Many journalists came under fire by US troops. Forgot the nationality , most probably an Italian journalist was shot dead by US troop.

Bush is their "dear" president? I guess he must not be too "dear" with a 32% approval rating.

--what ratiing has to do with election result ? BUSH was already proven a great liar about WMD , still Americans elected him.

about Shia / Sunni clashes , bomb blasts , some interesting info are given below.

British armed forces broke into Basra jail, and freed two undercover, "British" agents arrested by the Iraqi police while allegedly traveling in an unmarked car, in civilian - some say Arab - dress, and in possession of explosives.



If, as some allege, their purpose was to attack Iraqis, and make it appear to be the work of other Iraqi's, it would lend substance to allegations that the Americans and/or British are responsible for some of these attacks.

At the very least, the 'British' agents may be classified as unlawful combatants, and if incarcerating unlawful combatants indefinitely in Guantanamo is lawful, then the Iraqis should have the right to hold the 'British' agents.


http://www.twf.org/News/Y2005/0928-Basra.html

[tomtomsmom]

Salaam/peace;



--sorry , i did not get ur point.

Take example of Sri Lanka.... i always heard of Tamil Guerillas (!) fighting with Govt---no mention of religion.

Are they Hindus , Buddist , Christians ? IF they were Muslims , surely MEDIA would have related this war /unrest with religion.

I don't have courage to think that if the korean student were a Muslim , how media surely have started propaganda against ISLAM & Muslim.



NOW , i don't know if he was a Christian or Atheist or what ? It's for sure that he was not a Muslim ; Islam just escaped a media trial........thanks God.



But , still , there is a chance /risk . If someone claims that he was a revert MUSLIM , then media won't miss that chance .....i m sure about that.

The news isn't just the news anymore.
It is a ratings race. The more juicy a story the more people watch it. And thanks to 9/11 a muslim in this country jaywalking is a big story. Not saying that it is right, but that is the way it is. People in the USA are uneducated about the Islamic faith. They know what they see on the news. And what they see on the news is whatever can be said to boost ratings.


With the thousands on top of thousands of muslims in this country why not make an organized effort to make "your" own news program. Even if it isn't widely shown, perhaps it could start some sort of grassroots effort to inform people of what things should be and not what they are. And before anyone says it I will........................If you go to any mosque you will hear the message of this. But facts are that the majority of Americans that have no knoweldge of Islam don't even know what a mosque is and if they did are more than likely to be to afraid to go. There are cable channels that have nothing but christan programs on 24 hours a day. For an American to see anything Islamic they have to have special programming through a satelite dish. And trust me.......it isn't cheap. Unless they know something about it and want more then no one is going to want to pay $50 a month for programs that they can't even understand cause they are all in arabic anyway.


Just a thought...............I will shut up now.....

[MTAFFI]

you know what I find interesting about this thread... The title is "America, we feel your pain, do you feel ours?" To answer your question, yes I think the vast majority of Americans believe that the lose of any life is a waste. I think this is proven in the president approval ratings and by the American peoples own admissions from time to time. As far as you feeling our pain, no one really asked you to, it happened on our soil, by someone who was a citizen of our country, and it has nothing to do with foreign policy or any other country, so therefore it is an internal affair. If you wish to send your condolences they are very much appreciated, but if you wish to "compare" one tragic event to another, what is your point?

[Keltoi]

you know what I find interesting about this thread... The title is "America, we feel your pain, do you feel ours?" To answer your question, yes I think the vast majority of Americans believe that the lose of any life is a waste. I think this is proven in the president approval ratings and by the American peoples own admissions from time to time. As far as you feeling our pain, no one really asked you to, it happened on our soil, by someone who was a citizen of our country, and it has nothing to do with foreign policy or any other country, so therefore it is an internal affair. If you wish to send your condolences they are very much appreciated, but if you wish to "compare" one tragic event to another, what is your point?

That is the way I feel about it too. This thread is confusing to me because I fail to see the point behind it. Of course the off-topic posts don't help.

[King Solomon]

. IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there. Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

Wow so when did they shoot the footage of all of Saddam's mass graves at the Skywalker Ranch? They do good work cause all those grieving Iraqis looked so real.

[King Solomon]

Ummm, I mean thousands & thousands of innocent lives who died because of America.

You mean the ones at the mosques, schools, and marketplaces? Oh wait they died at the hands of suicide bombers.

If a fish is dying in the ocean or any animal is trapped somewhere , so many people get worried , try to save the valuable life of that fish /animal…..ya , that’s good . They have rights to live in this world , too.

Depends on the animal, Tuna and Lake Perch is awful tasty.

But when hundreds peoples death go almost unnoticed in the mainstream media , don’t u feel it’s inhumane ?

They lead with coverage about iraq and people dying. What channels are you watching? Turn to CNN right now and I bet they are talking about Iraq.

Compare the news coverage of the media about 32 death vs thousands death caused by US ……hopefully u will understand what I m trying to say.

And the media got blasted about it didn't they?

When Sunni and Shiia  kill each other  by the hundreds, it's not the fault of Americans!

How is it American faults when right here on this site people claim that Shia aren't true muslims because of idol worship?

---read the article of Robert Fisk . Americans were in charge of the Shia mosque ; only when they left , bomb blasted & innocent people died.

Robert Fisk has been thoroughly proven to be a fraud.

It was impossible for any Sunni/Shia or criminals to put the bombs inside the mosque when it was totally under US control.

Sorry but American troops don't go in mosques unless invited due to winning "hearts and minds"

I cant thank you enough for this post. Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Millions displaced or homeless. This is unprovoked, premeditated murder on a grand scale.

I would say trying to kill an ex-president is provocation. Also Iraqs past actions were enough to worry the US

If the people of Iraq were cattle Americans would be appalled.

Not if it was Grade A Angus, then it would be good eatting

How do you explain this callas indifference to human suffering. Is it just because Iraqis are brown? Are all people around the world as cold and uncaring as Americans?

Are you sure you wanna go this route? Last time I checked Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Alberto Gonzalez, and Zalmay Khalilzad are awful brown

[King Solomon]

Salaam/peace;




---ya , a very good point. Media ALWAYS relate crime with religion when even the accused person is a Muslim. Media don't do the same when the proved criminal is a non-Muslim. LOL

Well when Cho was killing people I'm sure he wasn't yelling PRAISE JESUS! Like some muslims yell Allah Wahbah

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Well when Cho was killing people I'm sure he wasn't yelling PRAISE JESUS!

--LOL . when anti-abortion Christian groups carry attacks , what do they say ? They do this in the name of religion ; why media don't bash Jesus (p) or Bible for their action then ?

Because of the Crusaders , any media ever condemned Bible or Christians? Forget about national tragedy.....take examples of family problem. I wrote about this in other forum more than once....running out of patinece , so writing briefly.

Media never say that Christian women are beaten /murdered by their Christian husband in the west . But when it reports about the same problem , it's the Muslim women who are oppressed , it's because of Islam , all Muslim men are bad .....media give this kind of impressions.

Is it so hard to understand the double standard of the media ? Did u read the joke i re-posted here ?

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;




--LOL . when anti-abortion Christian groups carry attacks , what do they say ? They do this in the name of religion ; why media don't bash Jesus (p) or Bible for their action then ?

Thankfully, it has been several years since those horrendous events. But when they were occurring, YES, the media did often make mention that the individual(s) involved were Christians, usually fundamentalist Christians. It is a good comparison.

Because of the Crusaders , any media ever condemned Bible or Christians? Forget about national tragedy.....take examples of family problem. I wrote about this in other forum more than once....running out of patinece , so writing briefly.

Media never say that Christian women are beaten /murdered by their Christian husband in the west . But when it reports about the same problem , it's the Muslim women who are oppressed , it's because of Islam , all Muslim men are bad .....media give this kind of impressions.

Is it so hard to understand the double standard of the media ? Did u read the joke i re-posted here ?

Yes, I have even heard reports condemning the Bible, especially Old Testament passage, but some have even criticized the words of Jesus. There is a recent murder here of a man by his wife. A great deal was made of him being a pastor and of the pastor's wife who committed murder.

Also, not all crimes committed by Muslims make headlines anymore than all crimes commited by Christians do. What happens is when the press can sensationalize something then it makes headlines. Two things that make it easy for the press to do that: (1) if the person at the center of the story can be lifted up as some sort of public figure -- be they politician, school teacher, religious leader, or have celebrity status. (2) The other is if one commits a crime that seems to be ironic -- the Coke salesman who commits a crime against Pepsi, a race car driver that dies in a simple highway accident, the millionaire who goes bankrupt, or the individual who commits violence in the name of a religion of peace.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Robert Fisk has been thoroughly proven to be a fraud.

when & how ?

Sorry but American troops don't go in mosques unless invited due to winning "hearts and minds"

--i m not talking about all mosques. The Imam Ali (ra ) mosque/shrine which is the holiest mosque in Iraq ...that was under control of US.

I would say trying to kill an ex-president is provocation.

---u mean the claim Jr. Bush made about his dad......the allegation was against Iraq or Iran ??....i don't remember now.

Also Iraqs past actions were enough to worry the US

---are u serious ? America is a great threat to the world peace / humanity. So , other countries have rigths to attack USA & kill thousands & thousands of US civilians including kids because of Bush ?

I can't believe it.

[/QUOTE]

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;


[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;722397]

  Yes, I have even heard reports condemning the Bible, especially Old Testament passage,

--uhhh , how i missed that ? While reading Bible , i was extremly shocked 'cause i had no idea that Bible (OT ) has so many verses on war , murder , polygamy. The ideas i got from media that only Quran has these verses.

..... some have even criticized the words of Jesus.

--- that's interesting . Which words ? Who criticised ?

There is a recent murder here of a man by his wife. A great deal was made of him being a pastor and of the pastor's wife who committed murder.

--- mainstream electronic media say CNN , BBC , Skynews & news agencies AP, Ruetors .....they relate the murder with Chrisitanity , Bible ?

Take another example. I heard few lines of Dr. Zakir Naik 2/3 days back. He was responding a question on dress code of Muslim Women.


Sania Mirza , famous Tennis star of India is facing criticism from Muslim groups for her mini-dress she wears while playing. Zakir's answer was like that , if u ask the Pope about the dress of Serena (? ) Williams , he will say that no , it's haram ( prohibited ) for any Chrisitan lady to wear this kind of dress.

Media don't say what other religions have Do's & Don'ts about women , they only highlight Islam & thus give an impression that only Islam has restriction on women ; so Islam is anti-women etc.

about news treatment of media , anther example comes in to mind. 4/5 years back , when the king of Nepal was murdered & the whole family members were also killed , CNN ( or was it BBC ? ) did not make it a headline.

They showed at least 10-15 minutes on a suicide attck in Israel. I can understand , it's a sesnatilve issue for Americans if Jews are killed by Palestine suicide bombers but after telling this as a 1st news , could not they tell the viewers about the tragic murder of the Royal family ? A whole Royal family is gone overnight .....it is a news after 10-15 minutes.

I was surprised.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Muslims Believe US Targets Islam: Poll

NEW YORK — The overwhelming majority of peoples in four leading Muslim countries believe that the US is taking its global war on terror as a guise to undermine Islam and divide the Muslim world,

a poll by the Washington-based WorldPublicOpinion.org showed on Tuesday, April 24.



"While US leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the US as being at war with Islam," Steven Kull, WPO editor, said in a statement carried by Reuters.



The survey, conducted by WPO and Maryland University, was based on face-to-face interviews of between 1,000 and 1,200 people from December to February.



It showed that more than 70 percent of Egyptians, Moroccans, Indonesians and Pakistanis believe the US is trying to weaken and divide the Islamic world.


More than 40 percent thought that was the primary goal of the war on terror, while only 12 percent thought America's aim was to protect itself from future attacks.

Most Egyptians, Indonesians and Moroccans said establishing a Palestinian state was not a US goal.

Sweeping majorities in the four countries — including 89 percent in Egypt and 63 percent in Morocco — believe the US was controlling most or nearly all of what happens in today's world.

More than half of those polled believed the US was trying to spread Christianity, while nearly 60 percent thought one of its goals was to control oil resources.

A poll for the Arab American Institute last year showed that Arab attitudes toward the US grew increasingly negative after the Iraq war.

A January poll for the BBC showed that an overwhelming majority in 25 countries had negative views of US foreign policies.


..The poll also found uncertainty about whether Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

On those responsible for the grisly attacks, which killed 3,000 people, the most common answer was "don't know."

A poll by the respectable British think-tank Chatham House showed in September that Al-Qaeda was losing sympathy in the broad Muslim world over discomfort about the association of Islam with violence and the indiscriminate civilian killings.

It noted, however, that the Iraq war has given a momentum to Al-Qaeda's recruitment and fundraising

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;

  Yes, I have even heard reports condemning the Bible, especially Old Testament passage,

--uhhh , how i missed that ? While reading Bible , i was extremly shocked 'cause i had no idea that Bible (OT ) has so many verses on war , murder , polygamy. The ideas i got from media that only Quran has these verses.






--- that's interesting . Which words ? Who criticised ?

It's is probably because I live here in the USA and am a Christian that I both here it more and am more sensitive to it than perhaps others on this forum might be. I am sorry, I can't be specific with the quotes on times, places, who said exactly what, and in what context. And I'm not saying that Christianity gets attacked by the media in the same way that it has appeard that Islam might feel attacked in recent years. But there really are disparaging remarks with respect to Christianity also; I will try to remember to report them to you as I hear them in the future.

--- mainstream electronic media say CNN , BBC , Skynews & news agencies AP, Ruetors .....they relate the murder with Chrisitanity , Bible ?

In the case of the pastor's wife who murdered her husband, they did not connect the murder to the Bible, they simply sensationalized it as the pastor's wife who broke the commandment "thou shalt not murder".

Take another example. I heard few lines of Dr. Zakir Naik 2/3 days back. He was responding a question on dress code of Muslim Women.


Sania Mirza , famous Tennis star of India is facing criticism from Muslim groups for her mini-dress she wears while playing. Zakir's answer was like that , if u ask the Pope about the dress of Serena (? ) Williams , he will say that no , it's haram ( prohibited ) for any Chrisitan lady to wear this kind of dress.

Media don't say what other religions have Do's & Don'ts about women , they only highlight Islam & thus give an impression that only Islam has restriction on women ; so Islam is anti-women etc.

I don't think the Pope would say anything about Serena Williams' dress. I don't think that Zakir was correct in saying that it is haram for a Christian lady to wear the kind of dress that she does. There are some groups within Christianity that would say they are inappropriate and have other problems with them, but I don't know of that any would say they are prohibited. There aren't really that many do's and don'ts directed specifically at women in Christianity, but the media does report on those that do exist. The Catholic church is often chastised for its stance on birth control, the Fundamentalist Mormons (who are not Christian) for their views with regard to plural marriage, and other groups when their patterns of behavior fall outside of the mainstream of popular culture.

about news treatment of media , anther example comes in to mind. 4/5 years back , when the king of Nepal was murdered & the whole family members were also killed , CNN ( or was it BBC ? ) did not make it a headline.

They showed at least 10-15 minutes on a suicide attck in Israel. I can understand , it's a sesnatilve issue for Americans if Jews are killed by Palestine suicide bombers but after telling this as a 1st news , could not they tell the viewers about the tragic murder of the Royal family ? A whole Royal family is gone overnight .....it is a news after 10-15 minutes.

I was surprised.

The event was 6 years ago, June 2001. I don't get BBC programming, so for me to remember it, it must have been covered on CNN or some other US media outlet. Whether it headlined or not, I certainly don't claim to remember. However, and truly I don't say this to make it any less terrible, because it was both on a national and even more on a personal level, but Nepal seems a long way from here. If I remember right you live in Pakistan don't you? Relatively speaking, much more nearby. Ashamedly, the NBA play-offs would probably be of more interest to most Americans, and that is who the media is pandering to when they decide what does and doesn't lead or even get reported in the day's news. You could develop a whole thread around the topic of problems associated with the American media, and I would probably agree with you on 90% of them. Of course, it isn't just the media at fault, the NBA play-offs or nearly any sports would be of more interest to most Americans than virtually any type of world news, that's just how narcissistic we are.

[Cognescenti]

Salaam/peace;

Why do you even bother with the salutation? From the tone of your comments it is clearly rote and has no real meaning.

--LOL . when anti-abortion Christian groups carry attacks , what do they say ? They do this in the name of religion ; why media don't bash Jesus (p) or Bible for their action then ?

I am sorry for my bluntness but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Do you ever read the US media? To begin with, I'm not really sure what you mean by a "Christian group" carrying out an attack, but when some nutcase murders an abortion doctor (I honestly can't remember when the last one was), the US media is all over any organization remotely affiliated with the guy. In general, mainstream US media organizations are run and populated by strongly pro-choice types

Because of the Crusaders , any media ever condemned Bible or Christians? Forget about national tragedy.....take examples of family problem. I wrote about this in other forum more than once....running out of patinece , so writing briefly.

Again, you are woefully misinformed. The mistakes and crimes of the Crusaders are widely commented on in Western literature and it is universally portrayed as an excess in history classes. You can hardly expect newspapapers or TV journalists to comment on it as it was many, many centuries ago.. Good grief! Get over it! Shake out the cobwebs of insularity and let the light in woman! It is your life to live but if you persist with this almost supernatural notion that all bad things are willfully perpetrated upon you by others, you will never achieve your goals.

Running out of gas....the futility of effort..I am realizing....

[Hashim_507]

Interesting article, its true question.

[Grace Seeker]

Why do you even bother with the salutation? From the tone of your comments it is clearly rote and has no real meaning.

Cognescenti,

While you may be spot on with regard to your other comments on Muslim Woman's post, my personal experience with her is that she is indeed sincere with regard to wishing and extending peace to all on these boards. Also, doing so is a sign that she holds those of us she is addressing with a certain degree of esteem and honor, it is of course influenced by custom and has become ritualized, but one should not infer from that fact that has become something done without meaning.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Why seek pity from hose who oppress?

Why seek forgiveness from those who blame?

Oh muslims? Is your hand tied?
Are your hearts collared?

Speak the words but the action is never done.

Ask for pity ,beg for hope,ask for an explanation..all the while muslim die..

They lie continously but what do western Muslim do?
Silence.....

Hearts are collared
bones are tied
Their blood spill
You cry out
Their pain shatter
your silence is deafening
Whose pain,
Whose voice.
Those who take up arms are shunned,
and those who surrender are muslim.
Those whom are tortured into submission are embraced
While those who die fighting are shunned.

[MTAFFI]

so what is this thread about again????? Some Muslims feel the pain of america, but yet feel an injustice that America apparently doesnt give as much coverage to them? Does anyone want to tell me the purpose of this thread, because I asked earlier and got no response...

[King Solomon]

Salaam/peace;




--LOL . when anti-abortion Christian groups carry attacks , what do they say ? They do this in the name of religion ; why media don't bash Jesus (p) or Bible for their action then ?

Because of the Crusaders , any media ever condemned Bible or Christians? Forget about national tragedy.....take examples of family problem. I wrote about this in other forum more than once....running out of patinece , so writing briefly.

Media never say that Christian women are beaten /murdered by their Christian husband in the west . But when it reports about the same problem , it's the Muslim women who are oppressed , it's because of Islam , all Muslim men are bad .....media give this kind of impressions.

Is it so hard to understand the double standard of the media ? Did u read the joke i re-posted here ?

One name. David Koresch. The media went on and on about this guy being a christian nutter. Do you think Jesus camp was a psitive movie? Trust me here fanatical christians are not shown in a possitive light. Just ask your average American what they think of Pat Robertson.

[Cognescenti]

Pat Robertson is entertainment for the US media. It confirms, in their minds, that all Christians are intolerant kooks. Non Americans often fail to understand that the media here is almost scrupulously secular...often holding anti-religion viewpoints and regarding people of faith as mere bumpkins from some inbred valley in the Appalachians.

Of course, he is partly to blame for their view of him, because he does make some comments which are frankly nutty.

Many posters here on this board imagine that Robertson has some Svengali-like power over US policy.

[tomtomsmom]

I must be really behind in the times cause I have no idea who that guy is!

[Muezzin]

Pat Robertson is entertainment for the US media. It confirms, in their minds, that all Christians are intolerant kooks. Non Americans often fail to understand that the media here is almost scrupulously secular...often holding anti-religion viewpoints and regarding people of faith as mere bumpkins from some inbred valley in the Appalachians.

Funny thing about secularism in America is that it was intended as a means to stop one religion becoming dominant over all others, not as a means to make people hate religion altogether.

But I'll save such rants for another topic.

[Grace Seeker]

Funny thing about secularism in America is that it was intended as a means to stop one religion becoming dominant over all others, not as a means to make people hate religion altogether.

But I'll save such rants for another topic.

I won't. You are exactly right. It was designed to work just as you said, but has produced a completely different result. In many ways, this is my pain as an American Christian, I imagine that Americans of every other religious stripe feel it as well.

Muslim Woman, I know it wasn't what you meant when you titled this thread, "America, we feel your pain...", but do you understand that the pain of religious intolerance in the form of mockery, false accusation, and stereotyping is indeed something that ALL Americans who express any religious faith (not just Muslim Americans) feel?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

so what is this thread about again?????

pl. read the 1st post. I accidently post the reply there & deleted the original post :omg:

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

I must be really behind in the times cause I have no idea who that guy is!

tomtom must keep u very busy :)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

... But there really are disparaging remarks with respect to Christianity also; I will try to remember to report them to you as I hear them in the future..

--thank u :statisfie


i heard that there is a blasphemy law in the west that forbids people to condemn Jesus (p) in the media ....is that true ?

I don't think the Pope would say anything about Serena Williams' dress.

--why ? If Catholics nuns need to cover themselves from head to toe , then how other Christian women can be allowed to wear dress like Serena ?

Christianity that would say they are inappropriate and have other problems with them, but I don't know of that any would say they are prohibited.

--- may be these lines are in Cor ( ?)..... chapter , women must not show her beauty ........, must not show ornaments etc . What's the explanation of these verses ?


These verses look so similar with Quranic verse on women . But people won't be able to know from media that Bible has some restrictions on women.

...........Fundamentalist Mormons (who are not Christian) for their views with regard to plural marriage,

--- have u ever heard on CNN / other electronic or read in print media that Bible allows polygamy ?

If I remember right you live in Pakistan don't you?

--nope :)

i think , Muslim Sis is from there. But i don't live far away from Pakistan , u may take another guess , if u want :p

about relating religion with crime/actions by media , another example is : when media tells about any non-Muslim group fighting for freedom/seperate state , they are lebelled as freedom fighters but if Muslims are fighting for freedom , they are extremists/separists etc. I have noticed it seveal times :cry:

[Joe98]

If Catholics nuns need to cover themselves from head to toe , then how other Christian women can be allowed to wear dress like Serena ?

For a start there is no such requirement. Each order of nuns wears a different “uniform”. Some orders cover themselves more than others.

And Catholic women who work for an airline wear a different uniform again.

i heard that there is a blasphemy law in the west that forbids people to condemn Jesus (p) in the media ....is that true ?

Blasphemy is a religious problem not a secular problem.

There are no seculare laws or punishments against blasphemy.

There are religious laws and punishments against blasphemy. The punishment is
Dis-communication from the church. There are no physical punishments.

[Cognescenti]

...
about relating religion with crime/actions by media , another example is : when media tells about any non-Muslim group fighting for freedom/seperate state , they are lebelled as freedom fighters but if Muslims are fighting for freedom , they are extremists/separists etc. I have noticed it seveal times :cry:

That is not true. The "Tamil Tigers" in Sri Lanka are usually referred to as "Tamil Separatists"

ETA...the Basque "separatist" organization in Spain, is labeled (with good reason) a "terrorist" organization.

The Eritreans were called "rebels"

The Marxist FMLA in Colombia are often called terrorists

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

But what irritates me , is how you continou to say " iraqis killing iraqis" ...............IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there.

Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

good point

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

That is not true......The Marxist FMLA in Colombia are often called terrorists

---ok , Insha Allah , i will try to collect info about it....but it will take time. I have noticed several times while reading newspaper about using extremists to describe Muslims while non-Muslims were not lebelled the same.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace ,




---ok , Insha Allah , i will try to collect info about it....but it will take time. I have noticed several times while reading newspaper about using extremists to describe Muslims while non-Muslims were not lebelled the same.

I think the others above answered the questions you put to me. So, I will just spend a little time on this one.

I will grant you that I see more of this now. Our press is far from perfect. Some are better than others. Some of just the paid mouths of the administration or anti-administration activitist or activitists of various other causes. The one thing that the press is NOT in the USA is monolithic.

Until terrorism touched the US directly, beginning I think with the bombing of the barracks in Lebanon, now about 20 years ago (wow, how old am I to remember that as if it were recent history?), one did see the press write about Palestinians as freedom-fighters. But you are probably right, the other wording has become more frequent. Though, it is not just Muslims that are called terrorists, and certainly not all Muslims are called terrorists either.

--nope :)

i think , Muslim Sis is from there [Pakistan]. But i don't live far away from Pakistan , u may take another guess , if u want :p

Afghanistan?
Tajikstan?
India?
Iran?

Tell me when I get close.

[Pygoscelis]

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

He compared himself to Christ. I'm suprised the media didn't pick up on that and call him a christian terrorist :) But no, he wasn't a terrorist, regardless of his religion. A terrorist is somebody who terrorizes people with some goal or political aim. This man had none. He just wanted to kill people from what I can tell.

[Grace Seeker]

IM AMAZED that this "murder" was only called SUCH. how sly this flithy country really is. Because he was KOREAN and not ARAB or MIDDLE EASTERN he was labeled and MURDER! excuse me , but does ANYONE know CHOY THE MURDER's religion? NO! no one does. BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE WASNT MUSLIM....so CHOY is merely a MURDER, NOT A TERRIOST! like any middle easterner who would have done the same would have been.

Your argument seems to be:
The USA is a sly filthy country.
Proof of that can be found in the different labels given to Cho vs. Middle Easterners who kill people.
Middle Easterners are called terrorists, but Cho was only called a murder.


But, you are in error.
First, many people have said that what Cho did was terrorism:

"the Virginia Tech shootings were acts of terrorism" -- Calgary Herald

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal

"Cho's mental illness should have blocked gun sale...which would have prevented yet another act of terrorism." --Terrorism Research Center

"any thinking American knows that what Cho Seung-Hui did was an act of terrorism" -- Canada Free Press

"Cho represents the orthodox terrorist where he becomes the 'one man show'." --The Right Angle Blog

"Terrorizing and Killing people ruthlessly is an act of terrorism and the ones who commit these acts are the terrorists." --Scoop Independent News



Second, you are in error that Middle Easterners (nor for that matter other Muslims) are automatically labelled as terrorists. A few cases in point.

The 2004 murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam was motivated by the filmmaker's expressions of hostility toward radical Islam. He was killed, in broad daylight and in front of witnesses, by a young man of Moroccan origin who gave as his reasoning a desire for jihad. Yet, no one used the term "terrorism" to describe it.


On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi was found dying, covered with burns and cuts. According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed that they tortured Halimi with particular cruelty simply because he was Jewish. And yet, this was not labelled terrorism.


Or do you remember the huge outcry in Brussels over the murder of a Belgian student, who was allegedy killed by two North African Muslim thugs in a train station over a MP3 player? 80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.


And even more recently, in January 2007, there was a grisly murder of the entire Armanious family in Jersey City, New Jersey. Among the suspects in the case were Muslims, and the murders were believed to have been religiously motivated -- Hossam Armanious was a Christian Coptic well-known in the area for engaging in hated confrontations with Muslims over conflicts between Christianity and Islam -- yet there are no accusations of terrorism mentioned. Further, the police did not settle on the Islamic suspects and try to stick them with the conviction, rather the case was thoroughly investigated and eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.


So there you have a small selection of events in recent history and in several countries, including the USA, in which Muslims have been suspects in murders but were not labelled terrorists. You have Cho being labelled a terrorist. Your assumptions are false. I suspect that the point your were trying to make is false as well, and can only be substantiated by faulty thinking.

[Cognescenti]

Your argument seems to be:
The USA is a sly filthy country.
Proof of that can be found in the different labels given to Cho vs. Middle Easterners who kill people.
Middle Easterners are called terrorists, but Cho was only called a murder.


But, you are in error.
First, many people have said that what Cho did was terrorism:

"the Virginia Tech shootings were acts of terrorism" -- Calgary Herald

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal

"Cho's mental illness should have blocked gun sale...which would have prevented yet another act of terrorism." --Terrorism Research Center

"any thinking American knows that what Cho Seung-Hui did was an act of terrorism" -- Canada Free Press

"Cho represents the orthodox terrorist where he becomes the 'one man show'." --The Right Angle Blog

"Terrorizing and Killing people ruthlessly is an act of terrorism and the ones who commit these acts are the terrorists." --Scoop Independent News



Second, you are in error that Middle Easterners (nor for that matter other Muslims) are automatically labelled as terrorists. A few cases in point.

The 2004 murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam was motivated by the filmmaker's expressions of hostility toward radical Islam. He was killed, in broad daylight and in front of witnesses, by a young man of Moroccan origin who gave as his reasoning a desire for jihad. Yet, no one used the term "terrorism" to describe it.


On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi was found dying, covered with burns and cuts. According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed that they tortured Halimi with particular cruelty simply because he was Jewish. And yet, this was not labelled terrorism.


Or do you remember the huge outcry in Brussels over the murder of a Belgian student, who was allegedy killed by two North African Muslim thugs in a train station over a MP3 player? 80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.


And even more recently, in January 2007, there was a grisly murder of the entire Armanious family in Jersey City, New Jersey. Among the suspects in the case were Muslims, and the murders were believed to have been religiously motivated -- Hossam Armanious was a Christian Coptic well-known in the area for engaging in hated confrontations with Muslims over conflicts between Christianity and Islam -- yet there are no accusations of terrorism mentioned. Further, the police did not settle on the Islamic suspects and try to stick them with the conviction, rather the case was thoroughly investigated and eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.


So there you have a small selection of events in recent history and in several countries, including the USA, in which Muslims have been suspects in murders but were not labelled terrorists. You have Cho being labelled a terrorist. Your assumptions are false. I suspect that the point your were trying to make is false as well, and can only be substantiated by faulty thinking.

Wow...Grace Seeker...that was a compelling argument. Very well researched, delivered succinctly and with fairness. If I were on the opposite side of the debate, I think I would feign temporary mutism rather than rise to dispute you.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

[MTAFFI]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

I didnt know that it was? Can you show where this has been an issue? I saw that the Korean government sent condolences but as far as I know they werent asked or even looked to for such.

I will say again, America is its own nation, we dont need anyone to say they are sorry for what goes on in our country, and we dont need anyone to feel our pain, why would you anyways it really isnt anyone elses business. As far as feeling sorry for those in Iraq, I feel for them too, but this happened on our soil, so dont expect our country to not cover it in the media and pay a lot of attention to it, because our country will always come first to those of us who live here and love to live here.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam,

This may be out of topic,,but...

For me,as an asian i do not understand why the South Korean goverment or any asian coutnry must send condolences to the US ..

Why simple..CHO is a US citizen,his family migrated there.
The US should apologise to all those who were killed by the US citizen.

So why is the fact that CHo is south korean more important than him being a US citizen??

I agree with you. It wasn't necessary. I suppose it is a cultural thing that they themselves felt compelled to say something. Though it should be noted that he was not a US citizen, but a permament resident alien.

[Zulkiflim]

I didnt know that it was? Can you show where this has been an issue? I saw that the Korean government sent condolences but as far as I know they werent asked or even looked to for such.

I will say again, America is its own nation, we dont need anyone to say they are sorry for what goes on in our country, and we dont need anyone to feel our pain, why would you anyways it really isnt anyone elses business. As far as feeling sorry for those in Iraq, I feel for them too, but this happened on our soil, so dont expect our country to not cover it in the media and pay a lot of attention to it, because our country will always come first to those of us who live here and love to live here.

Salaam,

Actually i expected the US goverment to apologize to those killed by Cho.

But it is otherwise.
Pretty sad that,those asina whom have died under the gun of Cho who was inflicted by western culture and bias.

It just dont make sense that any nation should send condolonces to the US.
Just surprising ..

[Zulkiflim]

I agree with you. It wasn't necessary. I suppose it is a cultural thing that they themselves felt compelled to say something. Though it should be noted that he was not a US citizen, but a permament resident alien.

Salaam,

thanks for that ,,did not know that.

But for the asina side,it was crazy,the Korean could not believe one of their own did this.
They even went so far as to go and dig up cho old neighbours,his old home .


For us here in Singapore,we have a debate going on on why is Cho identified as a Koren killer rahter than an American killer.

It briongs up another topic here,of how the US kept all Japanese americans in camps during the ww2 due to distrust and malice.

Maybe CHo problem is adaptation,but the main issue is HOW MUCH DOES CHO HAVE TO CHAGE TO BE ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN,,or any person..

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Afghanistan?

Tajikstan?

India?

Iran?


Tell me when I get close

haha :statisfie normally i give people 3 chances but as u r close in ur 1st 3 guesses , ok , 1 more chance :)


a hint: u may say that elders in my country ' enjoyed' 3 different citizenship without moving to other country :)



[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;724279]......

"What’s the difference between Cho Seung-Hui and the many hundreds if not thousands of Palestinian and Islamic terrorists worldwide? It’s a three-word answer: choice of weapon. Everything else is the same." -- NewMediaJournal




---how do u explain the words i highlighted ? Thousands of Palestians -----these oprressed people were compared with a killer ......why ??



what about the term Islamic terrorists.... ( how often do we hear Christian , Jewish , Hindu or Buddist terrorists ?



About 3 yrs back , many Muslims were burnt alive in India ... i saw picture of those burnt bodies ....horrible.....just horrible or more than that.

It was alleged that Muslims killed ...say 50 hindu train passengers. Let's agree that really Muslims killed 50 hindus ...but the question is : while taking revenge , how many Muslims should be murdered ? If we apply eye for an eye , tooth for a tooth criteria , then hindus had right to kill 50 Muslims ....but what happened there ?




Several Muslims areas came under attacked .......more than 1 thousand were brutally killed.

Muslim pregnant women were gang raped & terrorists cut their stomach & threw the unborn babies in fire . Later , it was said that terrorists wanted to make the area Muslim free ; so they set up the fire & intentionally targetted Muslims including pregnant women....it was reported by the probe committe.



A Muslim MP's house came under attack & police did not rescue him .....either he or his minor son died.... BBC Radio reported like that angry mob attacked.......) .


May be , in some news items , they used the term Hindu Fundamenalists but repeatedly they used the word unruly , angry etc. I don't remember if they used the term Hindu terrorists. Anybody remembers this incident ?




Everything else is the same-----how ? Anybody physically tortured Cho ? killed his family members ? Raped his sis , put his bro or dad in custody for years without trial ? Shoot his little bro for throwing stone ? Destryoed his home or occupied his land ??

On February 13, 2006 French citizen Ilan Halimi ..... According to reports in the French press, some of the suspects, Muslim men, confessed ....And yet, this was not labelled terrorism..

--Thanks God ...at least some journalists are becoming conscious about their responsibilities. Unless proven guilty , press must not identify anyone as a criminal .



Also , under police custody if people confess anything , this thought comes in to mind that may be they were tortoured to admit that.

80,000 protested in Brussels, Belgium; but the words terrorist were never used.

---woowww , a very positive sign. Someone should write an article about the change of the mentality :statisfie

And even more recently, in January 2007.....eventually clearing the Muslim suspects.

---who is the culprit ?

[snakelegs]

Salaam/peace ,

About 3 yrs back , many Muslims were burnt alive in India ... i saw picture of those burnt bodies ....horrible.....just horrible or more than that.

"terrorists" would be a good word for the hindutva thugs that carry out pogroms. (except they often get police protection).

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

".....(except they often get police protection).

police told something like that : we were not given orders to protect Muslims.


I guess , it's time to set up an exchange values of lives. In future , if Muslims kill 1 non-Muslim , others will get right to kill .... say.....5 , 20 , 30 or 50 Muslims.....not more than that.

sounds crazy / illogical ???

I don't think so .

At least we will hopefully be able to stop invading 2 countries based on 1 tragedy.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,


about media's role ( relating crime with religion ) .....1 more example: hope everybody is not tired already +o(

sometimes media don't directly tell that Muslims are bad but they represent Muslim Characters in the media negatively , thus spread the message that Islam is bad.



about 2 years back , i watched last half of a movie.......i guess American movie ....it was a comedy type. A man's wife & daugther are pregnant almost at a same time.....his daughter daily complains about pain & he takes her to hospital , then comes back , again at night goes & come back.

1 night his daughter assures that there is no pain , so dad took very strong pill , fall asleep & then both his wife & daughter went to hospital & had labour pain , needed operation.......a very funny movie.

There was no need to include any Muslim character at all. But the writer /director did that . The only villain in the movie was a Muslim businessman who bought the house of the dad & refused to give it back. That bad man scolded wife in front of others & the poor , opressed Muslim woman did not protest.


These 2 Muslims characters gave the idea to non-Muslims that surely all Muslim husbands oppress their wives.

I was thinking why the writer/ director did that ? Was it intentional ?

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam,

thanks for that ,,did not know that.

But for the asina side,it was crazy,the Korean could not believe one of their own did this.
They even went so far as to go and dig up cho old neighbours,his old home .


For us here in Singapore,we have a debate going on on why is Cho identified as a Koren killer rahter than an American killer.

It briongs up another topic here,of how the US kept all Japanese americans in camps during the ww2 due to distrust and malice.

Maybe CHo problem is adaptation,but the main issue is HOW MUCH DOES CHO HAVE TO CHAGE TO BE ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN,,or any person..

Actually, the bit as to why Cho is identified as Korean and not American is pretty easy, and two-fold.

The first you already got from my prior post. Cho was not an American. He was a Korean citizen even though he lived in the USA for more than 2/3 of his life.

The second reason is that the USA is all hung up of ethnicity. When the census is taken, when you sign almost any government document, when you regester for school there are questions about one's ethnic background. For all of our diversity, the USA is not a melting pot (though that is the image sometimes used) we are more like a stew, all sorts of things through in one pot and mix together in a common broth. So, people are identified as African-American, Mexican-American, Native-American, or Korean. In fact, I am considered Irish, though I have ancestory from more than half a dozen different countries, and some of my ancestors have been here for more than 400 years.

Except for Native-Americans, everyone came here from someplace else, and we often identify each other this way. When someone is still in an immigrant status, you can be sure it will be mentioned.


On the other hand, my son came here as a refugee from Vietnam as a teenager before being placed in our family. He has since become a naturalized citizen. And though he still speaks English with a very thick accent (so thick even I have trouble understanding him on the telephone), there is no question that he and his children are indeed Americans. Yet Hoa's wife is still Vietnamese as she hasn't completed her citizenship papers yet (not that it makes any difference to us). So, it goes both ways, and it just depends on what one is talking about whether ethnic origins make any difference or not.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace ,


about media's role ( relating crime with religion ) .....1 more example: hope everybody is not tired already +o(

sometimes media don't directly tell that Muslims are bad but they represent Muslim Characters in the media negatively , thus spread the message that Islam is bad.



about 2 years back , i watched last half of a movie.......i guess American movie ....it was a comedy type. A man's wife & daugther are pregnant almost at a same time.....his daughter daily complains about pain & he takes her to hospital , then comes back , again at night goes & come back.

1 night his daughter assures that there is no pain , so dad took very strong pill , fall asleep & then both his wife & daughter went to hospital & had labour pain , needed operation.......a very funny movie.

There was no need to include any Muslim character at all. But the writer /director did that . The only villain in the movie was a Muslim businessman who bought the house of the dad & refused to give it back. That bad man scolded wife in front of others & the poor , opressed Muslim woman did not protest.


These 2 Muslims characters gave the idea to non-Muslims that surely all Muslim husbands oppress their wives.

I was thinking why the writer/ director did that ? Was it intentional ?

Sure it was intentional. They were going for cheap laughs.

Watch a Jackie Chan movie, Hong Kong actor who writes and produces his own movies, he will also take advantage of various stereotypes, of his own culture, of American culture, and of about anyone's culture, just to get a cheap laugh. Others do it to play off of fears. And of course stereotyping really is just a form of prejudice and something we should reject whenever we see it.

Yet, in truth, I think we are all guilty of it, not just movie makers. I noticed this of myself the other day. I was walking down the streets of a large city late at night when I heard footsteps behind me. I looked over my shoulder and saw a black man following me (I happen to be white), and so I kept checking where he was as I walked along just to be safe in case he wanted to hold me up, which of course he never did. Later I thought about it. Would I have acted the same if it had been a white woman? I don't think so. Yet, the risk to me would have been the same if a white woman had wanted to hold me up. So, I was acting both racist and sexist at the time.

Indeed, isn't making any judgment about the rest of America, or even about all America media based on one's experience with a select few the equivalence of prejudging all that one has not yet experienced.

[Amadeus85]

Salaam/peace;




---ya , a very good point. Media ALWAYS relate crime with religion when even the accused person is a Muslim. Media don't do the same when the proved criminal is a non-Muslim. LOL

You just dont see the point i think. Media relate crime with religion when religion is somehow connected with the crime. For example terroristic attacks in London or Madrit were caused in the name of Jihad.Just like 9/11 attacks. Do we like it or not, religion was a motivation to those crimes. Thats why faith of those terrorists was mentioned. If from example those attacks were made bu christians in the name of christian religion, it would be mentioned and underlined too. Its not important if a crime is done by a muslim, christian or a jew.Important is if the religion was a motivation ot the crime.

[Amadeus85]

....While mournig over 32 deaths , do u think Americans should also remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation ? Or is it mean to ask them to do so ?

......Think about it one last time. Thirty different Virginia Tech size shootings in one day. Day after day.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-u...t_b_46134.html


---u may also add these while understanding the purpose of the thread :

say if any Iraqi asks u , how more innocent people including kids should die in Iraq to get the same media coverage like VT tragedy ..... What will be ur answer ?





How many Americans while feeling pain & sorrow for Iraqi people also thought '' we are not doing anything/much to stop the war '' ? Only feel pain of others is not enough , we must do something etc , etc.

I am sorry to say this but i want to express my own opinion about this. I have a friend from Egypt and we both discussed very much about the palestinian-jew conflict.And this friend always talked very emotionally about arabic victims of this conflict, especially during the war in Lebanon.During this tragic conflict in Lebanon against Hesbollah hundreds of Lebanons died.Which is a tragedy of course.But i wondered then and i asked my friend- hasen't she heard what is hapenning near Egypt, in Sudan..In Darfur conflict about 250 thousands of people were killed. And what?...Victims of Darfur die in silence every day.Im sorry to say this but aren't victims of Lebanon war of palestinian intifada more valuable for many muslims than victims of Darfur?..Lebanon war was in media highlights every day, and tv showed many tragedies of Lebanon's people, and many muslims made marches againts this conflict. They were orgaines immediately after the war was began. Was the same with Darfur?..

[Cognescenti]

"terrorists" would be a good word for the hindutva thugs that carry out pogroms. (except they often get police protection).

I think you used the perfect word yourself. What you are describing is a pogrom

[Cognescenti]

I am sorry to say this but i want to express my own opinion about this. I have a friend from Egypt and we both discussed very much about the palestinian-jew conflict.And this friend always talked very emotionally about arabic victims of this conflict, especially during the war in Lebanon.During this tragic conflict in Lebanon against Hesbollah hundreds of Lebanons died.Which is a tragedy of course.But i wondered then and i asked my friend- hasen't she heard what is hapenning near Egypt, in Sudan..In Darfur conflict about 250 thousands of people were killed. And what?...Victims of Darfur die in silence every day.Im sorry to say this but aren't victims of Lebanon war of palestinian intifada more valuable for many muslims than victims of Darfur?..Lebanon war was in media highlights every day, and tv showed many tragedies of Lebanon's people, and many muslims made marches againts this conflict. They were orgaines immediately after the war was began. Was the same with Darfur?..

Darfur doesn't count (as much). They are being murdered by other Muslims. There is no political advantage to be gained by emphasizing the conflict. The Gulf Arab states and Jordan and Syria use the Palestinian conflict to deflect attention away from their own shortcomings and authoritarian rule and, in the case of Syria, to cynnically try to get the Golan Heights back. Iran uses it to gain influence in the region. Hussein used to make himself a big man in the Arab League. Arafat used it to retain power and pay for his wife's apartment in Paris. Did I leave anybody out?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I am sorry to say this but ................ Was the same with Darfur?..

i tried to understand the Darfur situation....news is so confusing. Most probably , take control/ power over natural resources could be the reason behind conflicts. Muslims leaders as usual failed to do anything about it---so far .


But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

[Cognescenti]

...
But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

"Millions"? :rollseyes

"Revenge"? :rollseyes Wouldn't it have been easier then to take out Saudi Arabia? Their army was much smaller and most of the hijackers came from there.

Ah...never mind

[doodlebug]

Assalam alaykum

I get so annoyed with posters who compare Americans to muslims.


Hellooooooooooooooooooo....last I checked there were a whole heck of a lot of muslim Americans. :rollseyes


Also, to the OP......since you don't live in America do you ever have the opportunity to watch American news or are you basing your opinion on what others are telling you is presented in American media? I ask this because, not for nuthin' , but each and every single day when I flick on abc,nbc,cbs,cnn, fox news or listen to NPR I am pounded with news of casualties in Iraq. I'd say 50% of the news expounds on the casualties. I really only listen to NPR in the car but when I do I am constantly hearing human interest stories from the journalists who are actually brave enough to accumulate these stories.

So I have to wonder where the sense that there's a problem here is coming from.

Quite frankly I'm offended by the generalizations I see on this board of Americans. Someone pointed out the low approval rating that Bush has at the moment which, not to insult your intelligence, is relfective of the fact that Americans do not like the situation we are in.

Maybe if some of you would actually follow the American news you would know that, although its sure to be vetoed, we just passed a bill lowering the funding of money to Iraq which would force our troops to withdraw as early as July.

I find it ironic that one person here is saying that we shouldn't be in Iraq and then another is saying that because our troops withdrew from the mosque held so dearly by shiite muslims, it was attacked and bombed.

Which is it...do we leave or stay?

Were the shiites and sunni's killing each other before we got there? uhhhh no, because a certain dictator was torturing people and had them in such fear that no one could say "boo".

Does no one think that MAYBE Iran has something to do with this? Why isn't there more outrage about Iran fueling the fire? Do y'all want this to become another Shiite regine like Iran? Would that make everyone here happy?

This is why I rarely come to this forum anymore. It's always muslims v. America.

And for the record, America includes Mexico, Candada, etc..... so when you says America is that who you really mean or do you mean the United States of America? If you're gonna insult us I'd at least appreciate it if you'd get our name right.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

"Millions"?

---- ok , thousands ?

Is it justified to kill thousands innocent Muslims in Iraq & Afghanistan if African Musilms are bad & killing each other ?

"Revenge"? .

---if it's not revenge , then what is it ? Or u believe , as Bush claimed , ( not the exact words ) Jesus (p ) told Bush to attack Afghanistan & Iraq , that's why he did so ?

Wouldn't it have been easier then to take out Saudi Arabia? Their army was much smaller and most of the hijackers came from there

U forgot that the 2 most holiest mosques of Muslims are in Saudi Arabia. If US attacks SA , surely riot will start instanly all over the world between Muslims & Christians . I don't know how many suicide bombers will be created if really it happens.

since you don't live in America ..... I am pounded with news of casualties in Iraq.

----I try to watch news on BBC , CNN , SkyNews at least the headlines. I never said that they don't give news about Iraq. It has already been discussed here .......... Read the 2nd post & the reply of that .

In short , dead Iraqi people are only numbers to US / western media. So , we don't see human interst stories about those who lost their lives or lost family members in a war based on lies.


Media coverage was not same about VT tragedy. I m not saying that US media won't cover any home tragedy . I was asking ( writing from memory as i deleted my 1st post ) if it's mean to ask Americans to remember those who are having minimum 30 VT tragedy daily because of US.

..do we leave or stay?

--pl. tell me , why u went there ?

If you're gonna insult us I'd at least appreciate it if you'd get our name right.

---what are u trying to say ???? Who is insulting Americans
here ? Raise question about US foreign policy , media policy.....how it' s an insult ?

we can discuss about these without being angry / feeling insulted. May be ,it's hard but not impossible ......pl. try :)

[doodlebug]

--pl. tell me , why u went there ?

I and many other americans have no idea. That is why there is currently an extremely low approval rating for our president and why the bill was passed to lower funding.

---what are u trying to say ???? Who is insulting Americans
here ? Raise question about US foreign policy , media policy.....how it' s an insult ?

Raising questions is one thing. Generalizing about Americans is another.

[Amadeus85]

Salaam/peace;



i tried to understand the Darfur situation....news is so confusing. Most probably , take control/ power over natural resources could be the reason behind conflicts. Muslims leaders as usual failed to do anything about it---so far .


But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

First of all dear Muslim Woman maybe we both live in two different worlds but as far as i know those daily massacres of civilans in Iraq are commited by muslims themselves. And taliban's acts of terror also hurt afghani civilians.
In my previous post i just wanted to say that muslims world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, where lets not forget 250 thousands people were killed while victims of Intifada or Lebanon war were always mourned openly andby most Arabs, and other muslims too.Do you see my point of view dear Muslim Woman?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

muslims world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide,

I agree but ......

.Do you see my point of view dear Muslim Woman?

--not sure :confused:


u want to say , as Muslim world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, we must not ask Americans to remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation in Iraq?

[KAding]

Salaam/peace;
I agree but ......
--not sure :confused:

u want to say , as Muslim world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, we must not ask Americans to remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation in Iraq?

This is based on the assumption of course that fewer will die when the occupation ends, which is unclear. There might be a correlation between the current killing and the invasion, but there is no such clarity on killing and ending the occupation.

There is plenty of news about Iraq in the United States, there is also a lot of discussion on it. Heck, just this morning each and every sunday political talk show dealt with the subject. Most Americans would want to leave ASAP. What stops them from doing it is the fear of even greater escalation. It is important to remember that Americans seem to assume that having instability in Iraq somehow be bad for them as well, especially in the long term. I think by and large there are three opinions on this:
1. US presense is irrelevant. Iraq will be a mess anyway, we better get out fast
2. US presence is a catalyst for violence
3. US presence is the only thing stopping even more massive sectarian killing

You seem to be firm believer in the second position. But based on what evidence?

Regardless, I think you original point is simply unfair. Firstly, there is quite a lot of attention for Iraq in the US media. Secondly, it is unreasonable to ask more of them. There are always hidden and forgotten conflicts on this planet. Think Congo or Darfur. Millions haved died in these conflicts. I don't think the media in any country have given much attention to it. Heck, how much attention did the slaughter of Shiites and Kurds in Saddams Iraq get? Judging the following post, I would say 'not enough'.

But what irritates me , is how you continou to say " iraqis killing iraqis" ...............IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there.

Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

good point

[Amadeus85]

I also sometimes wonder. How is it possible that after Pope' words in Ratisbona, there were tens of thousands of muslims on the streets condemning those words.After Muhammed cartoons there was the same. And i wonder why there are no the same huge protests in muslim world after suicide bombings, beheadings, terroristic attacks...

[Rhubarb Tart]

we do protest it just u never get to see it. For example the london bombing thousands of thousands of muslims protested against suicide bombings here in london and elsewhere in the world. So many people i tell ya, my dad was one of them and he was expecting it to be on the news (sky news, bbc news etc) but guess what all the protesting was for nothing. Cos it wasnt on the news, it shocked me all those people protesting for positive and safer future work for nothing. :raging: :enough!:
Same thing in Iraq can you honest say any goods news comes out there in the news. I know there are people in Iraq protesting against terroristic attacks and suicide bombings. And yet the never get to be shown on the news, newspaper etc...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

.....
just this morning each and every sunday political talk show dealt with the subject.

-- i was not talking about political discussion but the human interest stories .

Featurised news touches our emotions , make us feel like it happened to our dear ones , forced us to think that it could happened to us , brings tear in our eyes.

Heck, how much attention did the slaughter of Shiites and Kurds in Saddams Iraq get?

America is responsible for what going on in Iraq. So , their responsibilites & other countries responsiblities ( including role of media ) can not be same on other issues.


But i do agree that any human suffering is a great tragedy . But when one country is fully responsible for killing of thousands lives in one specific area , i don't understand how & why it sounds ' unfair ' to ask , America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?


I m sure , in future , people ( including America's now a days younger generation ) will look at Americans ( today's adults ) in great surprise & shock & will surely ask : how it happened ? What were u doing ?


May be , some Americans will answer , hey , we had a lot of political discussions on our media & it was enough to do for ' Bad Mozlems' . Don't u know , they did nothing about Darfur but protested against the Pope & cartoons ?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I also sometimes wonder. How is it possible that after Pope' words ...

I answered about this in other forum. In short , i do agree that Muslims should protest more & become more conscious about the un-Islamic matters done by Muslims .

But ,it does not mean that we can't protest against the double standard of the media.

The Danish daily did not publish cartoon on Jesus (p) but they were happy to provoke Muslims by publishing cartoons on the Last Prophet (p).


While Christians are used to make fun of their religion , write cartoons / jokes on Jesus (p) -----how Jesus (p) play with devil , thus put Jesus (p) & devil in a same place etc , etc , Muslims don't do this kind of fun about Prophets (pbut).

Still , the daily found it ok to hurt Muslims feelings . LOL . This is what the y call '' Press Freedom.''

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

2 Questions from an article :


One generation ago the peoples of the world asked themselves: Where were the "good" Germans?



Today the peoples of the world are likewise asking themselves: Where are the "good" Americans?


http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle08232006.html

[Grace Seeker]

we do protest it just u never get to see it. For example the london bombing thousands of thousands of muslims protested against suicide bombings here in london and elsewhere in the world. So many people i tell ya, my dad was one of them and he was expecting it to be on the news (sky news, bbc news etc) but guess what all the protesting was for nothing. Cos it wasnt on the news, it shocked me all those people protesting for positive and safer future work for nothing. :raging: :enough!:
Same thing in Iraq can you honest say any goods news comes out there in the news. I know there are people in Iraq protesting against terroristic attacks and suicide bombings. And yet the never get to be shown on the news, newspaper etc...

Well, if they can't get on BBC or CNN, how about showing it on Al-Jahzeera?

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;

2 Questions from an article :


One generation ago the peoples of the world asked themselves: Where were the "good" Germans?



Today the peoples of the world are likewise asking themselves: Where are the "good" Americans?


http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle08232006.html

We are limiting Bush's ability to continue to wage this war. We are calling him a liar for the reasons he got us into Iraq.

But would you have had us elect Gore or Kerry? Kerry voted for going into Iraq. He claims to be against it now, but he would have gotten us in there, and Gore would have never done anything at all. He would have let BinLaden flies more planes into more buildings with no retaliation.

If either of them were president, we would still have a mess, perhaps not the same one, but a mess. And both of them would have appointed supreme court judges that would be open to unrestricted abortions. More babies are killed in the USA as a result of abortions everyday, than people are killed in Iraq in a week. Given that Muslims do not approve of abortions, which is worse, killing babies who have done nothing to anyone, or killing grown men who are actually trying to attack you? Of course, this latter group is only a handful of individuals, and this handful is all that the USA is interested in fighting. The rest of the killing is the result of people who either want to get between the USA and those who are legitimate targets, or Muslims who have decided to fight each other for God only knows what reasons.

[thirdwatch512]

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.

but at the same time, you guys need to understand something.. it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.!!

--may God accepts ur prayer , Ameen.

it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

--if Americans can't stop it , then no need for them to stay to watch .

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

--again Ameen , Ameen , Ameen.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

haha but i m not an American.

I visited the beautiful land once.....wonderful :) , people are also nice . I expected bad / negative behaviours from crowd / some people for my veil but surprisingly nope , not bad experiences as expected/ feared ( except at airport & in a shop ).


Western media give a negative image of US women ......after spending 2 months there , i came back with a positive view of US women ( though don't know anybody personally ) & also Americans. PL. don't think that i m anti-American or anti-Christian. The purpose of this thread is not to hurt any Americans ......but pl. think what can u do to stop the war.

Hope my post will clarify if anyone has any misunderstanding.

[Cognescenti]

We are limiting Bush's ability to continue to wage this war. We are calling him a liar for the reasons he got us into Iraq.

But would you have had us elect Gore or Kerry? Kerry voted for going into Iraq. He claims to be against it now, but he would have gotten us in there, and Gore would have never done anything at all. He would have let BinLaden flies more planes into more buildings with no retaliation.

If either of them were president, we would still have a mess, perhaps not the same one, but a mess. And both of them would have appointed supreme court judges that would be open to unrestricted abortions. More babies are killed in the USA as a result of abortions everyday, than people are killed in Iraq in a week. Given that Muslims do not approve of abortions, which is worse, killing babies who have done nothing to anyone, or killing grown men who are actually trying to attack you? Of course, this latter group is only a handful of individuals, and this handful is all that the USA is interested in fighting. The rest of the killing is the result of people who either want to get between the USA and those who are legitimate targets, or Muslims who have decided to fight each other for God only knows what reasons.

The American public is indeed tired of the war and it now seems very likely there will be no tolerant, multisectarian government in Iraq, especially with a timetable for defeat now proposed by the Congress (evidently you approve of this). If that is the way it is to be, so be it. At the very least, an intersectarian civil war is coming in Iraq upon the withdrawal of the only serious restraining force (the US). It will be "sectarian-ethnic-cleansing" writ large. Baghdad will make Beirut of the 1970's look like a garden spot. If all goes "well", and one side gives up quickly, there will several tens of thousands killed and may millions displaced. On the other hand, with outside support (Iran for the Shia and perhaps the Saudis for the Sunni) it could go on for years.

Calling Bush a "liar" might help to solve this problem (even though you have indicted the Democrats as well), but I seriously doubt this will be a productive endeavor and it will forever redefine the word to mean anyone who utters something which subsequently is proven to be untrue. For example, it is Sen. Clinton's argument that if she "had known then what she knows now she would not have voted for war". :? How very manly of her, don't you agree? By your definition, there is no weather reporter who can possibly last a week without being accused of "lies" as he will inevitably predict rain on a day which proves to be sunny.

As for prayer..I suppose that could work, but I think you will need to ask God to cause Amedinajad and King Fahd (is he still alive?) and al Sadr and the Kurdish leaders and whoever is in charge of the Iraqi Sunnis to convert to Christianity so that they might listen to him. On the other hand, it is possible that the Christian God and Allah are one in the same and we are all just arguing about the prophets and that sort of thing. You know what...keep praying. It can't hurt.

[Cognescenti]

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.

but at the same time, you guys need to understand something.. it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

I blame Hussein. Had he simply cooperated fully with the UN inspection regime , the interantional pressure to remove sanctions would have been unstoppable
and he would still be in power, burying a few thousand Shia troublemakers in shallow desert graves every once in a while to keep the annoying idol-worshipers in line. And the world would have great entertainment value in watching Kurdish grandmas running for their lives over moutain passes every few years when the anfal campaign got some new funding. Plus, the makers of gold bathroom fixtures would have a great market in Iraq for Hussein's new palaces.

That is what is needed in Iraq. An Arab-speaking, murdering, sadistic, areligious dictator to keep the Shia and Sunni from killing each other in an uncontrolled fashion! Even better...throw in a sociopathic, murdering son to take over when dad gets too old.

Perhaps we should put an ad in Monster.com?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

....But would you have had us elect Gore or Kerry?

--that's an interesting point :)

In my country , when it's time to elect members of Parliament , we think like this ---who is less bad/corrupted ?

Mainly 2 political teams dominate our politics & really it's pathetic to decide who is comparitively less bad & then go & vote for him/her. Why we have to be so unfortunate ?


I heard that in Thailand , there is a NO vote system. If candidates are not good , people will say NO . If no vote is more than ..... i forgot ...say 45 % , then no one will be elected & parties have to nominate other candidates.


I found this system really good. Then it won't be possibe for political parties to force us to choose between bad & worse.

Kerry voted for going into Iraq. He claims to be against it now.....

--well , Bush & Blair lied to the whole world . So , those who truested them can get benefits of doubts. But , now no one should support it anymore as Bush & Blair already proven as great liars.

My God ...... Blair's claim about 45 minitues WMD ......what a pathetic joke with the Iraqi people.

... Gore would have never done anything at all. He would have let BinLaden flies more planes into more buildings ...

I read article of a western journalist . When he visited the website of FBI ( ?? ...those who capture international criminals & publish their photoes ) , he found that Laden's name is not mentioned there as a 9/11 criminal.

When he asked why , he was told that they don't have any proof .

.... More babies are killed in the USA as a result of abortions everyday, than people are killed in Iraq in a week.

--- i really did not understand these comparisons. Those who are murdered / are dyeing daily in Iraq ...they are helpless ...have no choices.

To stop the killing of unborn babies , many things can be done.

First tell the mothers ------- it's not ur right to kill ur baby . Just like u , they have a right to live in this world , too.

2. Urge doctors not to kill babies ....is not it against their professional ethics ? They are supposed to save lives , not kill.

3. Give free pills to women who don't want to be mom etc , etc, etc.

Given that Muslims do not approve of abortions, which is worse, killing babies who have done nothing to anyone, or killing grown men who are actually trying to attack you?

-- Iraqi people were not responsible for 9/11......American sources/agencies have admitted it long ago.


I can understand , Christians don't believe in turn another cheek teaching of Jesus (p) but surely U can't attack a country with this fear that in future , may be one day , some adults will attack u.



If mothers are killing their babies , u can ask for strict laws or u urge them on religious grounds. Most Americans are Christians . So , teach them about their holy book......pre-sex marriage , kill babies ......surely these are not teaching of their Lord Jesus (p).


But , to select a candidate because he will save unborn US babies but will surely kill thousands ( if not millions ) babies & adults outside America......i m shocked .....now it's the criteria to elect US President ????

I will be happy if u tell me that i did not understand ur post correctly.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;



--that's an interesting point :)

In my country , when it's time to elect members of Parliament , we think like this ---who is less bad/corrupted ?

Mainly 2 political teams dominate our politics & really it's pathetic to decide who is comparitively less bad & then go & vote for him/her. Why we have to be so unfortunate ?


I heard that in Thailand , there is a NO vote system. If candidates are not good , people will say NO . If no vote is more than ..... i forgot ...say 45 % , then no one will be elected & parties have to nominate other candidates.


I found this system really good. Then it won't be possibe for political parties to force us to choose between bad & worse.




--well , Bush & Blair lied to the whole world . So , those who truested them can get benefits of doubts. But , now no one should support it anymore as Bush & Blair already proven as great liars.

My God ...... Blair's claim about 45 minitues WMD ......what a pathetic joke with the Iraqi people.




I read article of a western journalist . When he visited the website of FBI ( ?? ...those who capture international criminals & publish their photoes ) , he found that Laden's name is not mentioned there as a 9/11 criminal.

When he asked why , he was told that they don't have any proof .




--- i really did not understand these comparisons. Those who are murdered / are dyeing daily in Iraq ...they are helpless ...have no choices.

To stop the killing of unborn babies , many things can be done.

First tell the mothers ------- it's not ur right to kill ur baby . Just like u , they have a right to live in this world , too.

2. Urge doctors not to kill babies ....is not it against their professional ethics ? They are supposed to save lives , not kill.

3. Give free pills to women who don't want to be mom etc , etc, etc.



-- Iraqi people were not responsible for 9/11......American sources/agencies have admitted it long ago.


I can understand , Christians don't believe in turn another cheek teaching of Jesus (p) but surely U can't attack a country with this fear that in future , may be one day , some adults will attack u.



If mothers are killing their babies , u can ask for strict laws or u urge them on religious grounds. Most Americans are Christians . So , teach them about their holy book......pre-sex marriage , kill babies ......surely these are not teaching of their Lord Jesus (p).


But , to select a candidate because he will save unborn US babies but will surely kill thousands ( if not millions ) babies & adults outside America......i m shocked .....now it's the criteria to elect US President ????

I will be happy if u tell me that i did not understand ur post correctly.

You did understand it, at least in part, but I don't think you understood the realities of our government.

This is going to take awhile and might even seem off point, but I will get back to the point if you stay with me.

1st, Americans cannot stop the killing of babies. Right now, the way the law is interpreted, it is considered legal. Further, many many people in the USA think it is justifiable. They don't even recognize babies as human beings until after they are born so they have no legal protections until then. However, not everyone thinks this way or thinks this is right. But just writing a new law won't fix the problem, because laws have been written and the laws themselves have been declared unconstitutional (or illegal laws) by our court system. And the people who are in the positions in the court to make these decisions are not voted on by the people and cannot ever be voted out of office or replaced by anyone, unless they voluntarily retire or die. And when this happens, which isn't often, the person who selects the new judges to replace them is the president. So, yes, many people consider what type of judges the president would choose to serve on our supreme court when voting for president.

2nd, you may not recognize just how horrific this massacre of the innocents is in the USA. 3542 babies are aborted every day, over 1.2 million babies are aborted every year. The deaths of hundreds of thousands of likewise innocent people in Iraq is terrible. But the choice in our system is like yours, between bad and worse. But there has not been a day in the history of the Iraq War when more people died in Iraq than in the USA's abortion parlors. In 2004 I had to choose between a President who seeks to stop the murder of babies in the USA but thinks he is justified in waging war in Iraq, and another person who wants to make abortion even easier than it already is and was also willing to wage war in Iraq.

I appreciate your suggestions on how to try to stop abortions in the USA. By the means you suggested we have been able to see a decrease of about 300,000 abortions a year from it high. That is good news. But not good enough. Bush was our best chance in recent years to slow this down some more.


I don't see it as a trade-off between US and Iraq. The best I can see it as is the lessor of two evils. And believe it or not, the war in Iraq is the lesser of those two evils. That is just how horrible what is going on here really is. You may value the life of an American baby differently than that of an Iraqi family. I don't. I think the death of either is inexcusable. I don't know how to stop both, so I try to figure out how to stop the most total deaths. As I said, I am choosing the lesser of two evils, and right now 700,000 Iraqi deaths in 4 years is less than 1.2 million American babies in 1 year. So, I pinched my nose over the stink of it, and voted for Bush.

If you can come up with a better solution for me than that, please let me know. Because I might be faced with a similar choice in 2008. Even if it isn't Bush, the issues could be the same once again.

[sudais1]

I am still at odds with how Americans still believe their doing a good job in IRAQ. Before there occupation Sunni and Shia were stable in the region.It's annoying to read posters who say there doing good in Iraq. 655,000 dead. Is there anything to be proud. Whole families were killed yet you still beleive that there death is for the greater good, The "insurgents" want the U.S out of Iraq, they have killed enough of their people. Sunni and Shia would "kiss and make-up" once the occupiers leave just like they lived together before the Americans. NOONE bring up saddaam because the americans sold him the weapons

[Cognescenti]

I am still at odds with how Americans still believe their doing a good job in IRAQ.

Who said that? In retrospect it will likely prove a mistake as it has emboldened Iran and generated plenty of martyr types. Still, you have to ask yourself..what now? This is the real world. There is no "reset" button.

Before there occupation Sunni and Shia were stable in the region.

:rollseyes That is completely delusional. Ever hear of the Iran/Iraq war? At least 2M died. Ever hear of the Shia uprising after GWI? Hussein was convicted for crimes against humanity for the slaughter of the men and boys of a Shia village after some of the blissfully happy Shia tired to assassinate Hussein. Ever hear of the Marsh Arabs? Why do you think the Shia celebrated when Hussein was executed? Did you know all Shia pilgrimages were banned under Hussein?

Sunni and Shia would "kiss and make-up" once the occupiers leave just like they lived together before the Americans.

:laugh: Care to make a wager on that?

NOONE bring up saddaam because the americans sold him the weapons

That is absolutely NOT true. Almost all of Husseins aircraft were Russian (and a few French) I think essentially all of his armored vehicles were Russian. His missiles were Chinese and North Korean. His infantry weapons were Russian and Chinese.

sudais1...where do you get your information?

[Allah-creation]

Why would the Iraqi people choose a different government system to follow beside Allah (SW) laws?

[Allah-creation]

There was almost no violence in Iraq tells America stepped in. the problem is America thinks its better than the whole world!! And all should be democracy. Haven’t u learned your listen from Korea!?!

[Cognescenti]

There was almost no violence in Iraq tells America stepped in. the problem is America thinks its better than the whole world!! And all should be democracy. Haven’t u learned your listen from Korea!?!

There was not widespread street violence.

There were plenty of people dying.

Bones of kurdish babies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

Relatives look for their missing family members from a mass grave nera Hilla

This poor man found someone.

There are skeletons with blindfolds and their hands bound by the hundreds in one grave. What do you think that was ....a bus accident?

You do realize Husseins regime built Abu Ghraib? What do you think it was then.....a resort hotel?

I am persuaded....Iran was a garden spot...unless of course you were Shia or Kurdish or a plain vanilla political opponent or perhaps a soccer player.

[Cognescenti]

Ahh...guess I wasn't banned Sorry guys :-)

<decides to go seek professional help....maybe Purest Ambrosia was right about the paranoia thing>

[bro_ali1]

Alhumdulillah, this thought didn´t even cross my mind. Indeed a good post, and a question that should be asked to every single American alive todate.

My personal opinion is that the arrogance of the majority of Americans will fog out any hope of a decent reply.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

it looks like some Americans do feel pain of others.

Thanks God.


Good-bye America ...you are not the country that I love and I finally realized no matter how much I sacrifice, I can’t make you be that country unless you want it.



It’s up to you now.



full article here


"Why Casey Died For Nothing"

By Cindy Sheehan

This is my resignation letter as the "face" of the American anti-war movement.

This is not my "Checkers" moment, because I will never give up trying to help people in the world who are harmed by the empire of the good old US of A, but I am finished working in, or outside of this system.

This system forcefully resists being helped and eats up the people who try to help it.


I am getting out before it totally consumes me or anymore people that I love and the rest of my resources.


http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17787.htm

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Sure, America feels her pain.

As Condi Rice aptly put it: "It's the Birth Pangs of a New Middle East."

[snakelegs]

muslim woman,
thank you for posting the link to cindy sheehan's eloquent statement. i pretty much agree with every thing she wrote, tho unlike her, i made no sacrifices for my beliefs.
as long as people continue to buy in to this democrat-republican b.s., it is truly hopeless.
thank you again, even tho it really made me cry because i love my country.

[Zman]

as long as people continue to buy in to this democrat-republican b.s., it is truly hopeless.

It's Just 2 sides of the same coin, man.

It's the same agenda, with the same strategic goals. They only slightly differ on the tactics used to achieve those aims...

[Zman]

My apologies to the mods for being off topic.

But snakelegs, your sig (each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles)
caught my eye and it reminded me of this Arabic proverb a friend of mine once told me: "A Monkey in his mother's eyes appears to be a Gazelle."

[snakelegs]

It's Just 2 sides of the same coin, man.

It's the same agenda, with the same strategic goals. They only slightly differ on the tactics used to achieve those aims...

true say. a sham.

[glo]

Mashaallah good post sister
this is so true. When they talk about Iraq, all they do is speak of numbers and body counts, when it happens at home, they show pictures, mourning families, broken dreams. Media isn't balanced.

We read The Independent quite regularly. I can assure you that they have a strong stance against the Iraq war, and that there are almost daily articles, including photographs and personal accounts of the suffering of the Iraqi people.

But I am sure you are right when it comes to other papers ...
Depends on what you choose to read in the first place.

Peace

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

:sl:/Peace To All

Sure, America feels her pain.

As Condi Rice aptly put it: "It's the Birth Pangs of a New Middle East."

LOL :rollseyes


she or her big boss would love to have the same kind of birth pangs for a better USA ?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

and that there are almost daily articles, including photographs and personal accounts of the suffering of the Iraqi people.

do they publish the injured Iraqi people's photoes including dead kids ? Do they publish the photo of dead UK soldiers ?

[glo]

Salaam/ peace ;
do they publish the injured Iraqi people's photoes including dead kids ?

Yes, they do. :cry:

Do they publish the photo of dead UK soldiers ?

Not that I remember.