Clear - Before Adam / Creation

[Clear]

1) Do the ahadith or the quran discuss in any detail the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth?

2) Do the ahadith or Quran or Islamic faith teach in creation of stars and planets from eternally existing matter (i.e. the organization of chaotic, but eternal matter, as some early christianity/judaism taught), or in creation from nothing (as some later christianity taught)?

I am trying to compare many of the early Jewish and Christian traditions with early Islamic histories and traditions.

Thank you in advance for the time in answering this

Clear

[Woodrow]

Very interesting Questions.

I will just say a little about Question 2 at this moment.

2) Do the ahadith or Quran or Islamic faith teach in creation of stars and planets from eternally existing matter (i.e. the organization of chaotic, but eternal matter, as some early christianity/judaism taught), or in creation from nothing (as some later christianity taught)?

2:117. The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Y S C



16:40. And Our word unto a thing, when We intend it, is only that We say unto it: Be! and it is. Y S C


36:81. Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the like of them? Aye, that He is! for He is the All-Wise Creator, Y S C

36:82. But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is. Y S C
36:83. Therefor Glory be to Him in Whose hand is the dominion over all things! Unto Him ye will be brought back. Y S C


40:68. He it is Who quickeneth and giveth death. When He ordaineth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Y S C



7:54. Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! Y S C


32: 4. Allah it is Who created the heavens and the earth, and that which is between them, in six Days. Then He mounted the Throne. Ye have not, beside Him, a protecting friend or mediator. Will ye not then remember? Y S C


57: 3. He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. Y S C

57: 4. He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do. Y S C
57: 5. His is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and unto Allah (all) things are brought back. Y S C

57: 6. He causeth the night to pass into the day, and He causeth the day to pass into the night, and He is knower of all that is in the breasts. Y S


Pickthal's Quran Translation

[Clear]

Woodrow

Thank you for your interest and comments. The specific principle of Allah/God simply decreeing a thing as when it says "..He saith...Be! and it is" is common to Jewish, late christian, or Islamic traditions.
However, what I am looking for is the process by which Allah/God creates. For example, the ancients such as the Egyptians also believed the LORD God (over all other Gods they had) decreed what was to be created or done. However, in their theology as in some early christian theology, the creation itself was accomplished by using chaotic matter that had an eternal existence. Later Christianitic traditions evolved whereby Allah/God no longer used eternal matter to organize into worlds and stars etc, but in their version, he created all created things using "nothing" (ex-nihilo theory)
This is the context whereby I ask if Islamic faith believes in creation from eternal existing matter as many of the ancients and early christians, or if Islamic faith believes in creation from "nothing".

I hope this clarification makes sense. Again, I am grateful for your time and hope my original question is more clear. Thanks Woodrow.

Clear

[poga]

Woodrow

Thank you for your interest and comments. The specific principle of Allah/God simply decreeing a thing as when it says "..He saith...Be! and it is" is common to Jewish, late christian, or Islamic traditions.
However, what I am looking for is the process by which Allah/God creates. For example, the ancients such as the Egyptians also believed the LORD God (over all other Gods they had) decreed what was to be created or done. However, in their theology as in some early christian theology, the creation itself was accomplished by using chaotic matter that had an eternal existence. Later Christianitic traditions evolved whereby Allah/God no longer used eternal matter to organize into worlds and stars etc, but in their version, he created all created things using "nothing" (ex-nihilo theory)
This is the context whereby I ask if Islamic faith believes in creation from eternal existing matter as many of the ancients and early christians, or if Islamic faith believes in creation from "nothing".

I hope this clarification makes sense. Again, I am grateful for your time and hope my original question is more clear. Thanks Woodrow.

Clear

there is no such thing as etrenal matter
ALLAH allways was allways is and allways will be therefore this word of when therewas nothing actualy dosen't means anything
to understand this void nothingness you must understand the cubical reality
this nothingness is zero function created by ALLAH as the base for this life:w:

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[Woodrow]

From what I can understand the Qur'an is quite explicit. The process was Allah(swt) willed it to be and it was. No building material requires, no recycling of previous attempts etc. I am not aware of any Hadith that differ from that concept. Personally, unless I was shown that it was verified as authentic Hadith I would doubt the authenticity of it as the seems to be in contrast with the Qur'an.

[Clear]

Woodrow - I can't really be sure what Poga is trying to say but I think that he believes in the later "creation from nothing" tradition (i.e. the worlds NOT being created from matter but created out of "nothing".) Is this what he is saying?

If it is what he's trying to say, Do you know if this is authentic Islamic doctrine?

Thank you for your time.

[Woodrow]

Woodrow - I can't really be sure what Poga is trying to say but I think that he believes in the later "creation from nothing" tradition (i.e. the worlds NOT being created from matter but created out of "nothing".) Is this what he is saying?

If it is what he's trying to say, Do you know if this is authentic Islamic doctrine?

Thank you for your time.

That is also the way I understand it. First there was nothing. Allah(swt) simply willed it to be and it was. No running to Home Depot for building materials or looking around the universe to see if there was some scrap matter to use.

[Clear]

Woodrow

Thank you for the answer regarding islamic doctrine of creation "from nothing". The doctrine of "creation from nothing" seems to have developed in the more modern times in Judao-christian traditions and so your answer helps me to place the Islamic doctrine into a more understandable historical time table and context. Thank you.

I would like so much to compare the multitude of Judao-Christians records regarding the circumstances and purposes of God prior to earths creation to ahadithic forms of the same histories. Are you aware of ahadithec or quranic histories regarding the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth?

If you are not sure what the "official" Islamic doctrine/traditions are, please make this clear in your answer. If you don't know the answer, this is also fine. Again Woodrow, I am indebted to you for your time and information. I do not trust the christian/agnostic/atheist/philosophy sites for the best information on such questions regarding islamic doctrine.

Clear

[Woodrow]

Woodrow

Thank you for the answer regarding islamic doctrine of creation "from nothing". The doctrine of "creation from nothing" seems to have developed in the more modern times in Judao-christian traditions and so your answer helps me to place the Islamic doctrine into a more understandable historical time table and context. Thank you.

I would like so much to compare the multitude of Judao-Christians records regarding the circumstances and purposes of God prior to earths creation to ahadithic forms of the same histories. Are you aware of ahadithec or quranic histories regarding the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth?

If you are not sure what the "official" Islamic doctrine/traditions are, please make this clear in your answer. If you don't know the answer, this is also fine. Again Woodrow, I am indebted to you for your time and information. I do not trust the christian/agnostic/atheist/philosophy sites for the best information on such questions regarding islamic doctrine.

Clear

It is really difficult to say what is the "Official Islamic" doctrine about anything. The only doctrine is the Qur'an, with examples of how to live as Muslims in the Hadith.

We are not organized in the same manner most religions are. We have no ordained clergy. Many of us never attended any type of formal Islamic training and we learn through reading the Qur'an, the Ahadith, and asking questions from friends, any scholars we meet and our local Imam if there is one.

Many born Muslims learned much of what they know from their Mothers. we truly are responsible for our own actions and not under the control of any man. In what we are taught from others we are encouraged to question and know it is true from our own observations.

I am very much a beginner in regards to the Ahadith and I would not trust my views without the guidance of a person who has made a long study of them.

To be honest I have not found any hadith that make any reference to creation. All of the ones I have read have to do with issues on how to follow the Qur'an, How to worship, Laws, Codes of conduct etc.

[Clear]

Woodrow -

1) Thank you for your explanation. In wanting “official” doctrine, I wanted to avoid the “hearsay” and incorrect versions of Islam so commonly distributed by either Islams’ enemies or any well-meaning but misinformed Muslim. I believe that any honest understanding of another religion must begin with an honest search for true data. Thank you for the disclaimer.


2) “I am very much a beginner in regards to the Ahadith and I would not trust my views without the guidance of a person who has made a long study of them. - Woodrow” -

It is ironic that it is your humble admission that allows me as a christian to trust your opinion above that of many others.


3) “...I have not found any hadith that make any reference to creation....- Woodrow”

My interest in circumstances and events prior to creation have to do with understanding Allah’s purposes in creation as it is. For example, if you visit the religious philosophy forums, an area of greatest interest (and use as a criticism of God) are questions regarding: The origin of evil; Why did God create the Devil?; Why God allows evil?; Why "needless" tragedy and suffering?, Why natural disasters, etc. The critics of religion are constantly taking the religionists to task for not having credible models for why such "evil" and "unfairness" exist. Studying the histories of prophets who asked those same questions, but had faith to have answers given them is helpful in forming our own sense of what is going on.

The oldest religious document in the world, the Mephite Theology (or the Shabako Stone) has to do with events prior to creation where the Lord God over all things and all other beings is presiding over a vast congregation of spirits and over the world and circumstances which will be associated with this world. To understand these principles is important to understand the questions we all ask ourselves.

In my other thread I referred to Sura 6:74 where Allah says: ...we showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth so he might be among those having certitude.” Reading the versions of Abrahams description of this vision given him by Allah helped him to understand why circumstances MUST be the way they are; the purpose evil serves; the nature of spirits sent to this world and their relationship to Allah and his ultimate purposes in all of creation.

These are themes that I am interested in because they help the world make so much more sense.

Thank you for your information Woodrow. I hope you stay cool this summer in muggy Austin.

Clear

[جوري]

These are themes that I am interested in because they help the world make so much more sense.

Thank you for your information Woodrow. I hope you stay cool this summer in muggy Austin.

Clear

I don't know that I would call it G-D creating evil... G-D created all creatures, gave them free will... Satan so to speak had too much pride, and rebelled... Can you really state that G-D created evil people? or did G-D create man and gave him free will, time to reflect and repent, and choose which state he wanted for him/herself--- I believe that all that is good is from G-D, all that is evil is from within ourselves.
In a way it gives us contrast...
Sometimes I get awful migraines, so painful they make me want to cry and sit by myself in a dark room... I medicate myself heavily, I avoid stressors of light or sound-- and I get relief... I don't think I'd appreciate relief if I didn't have pain to contrast it with. How can I assume I am well, if I didn't feel the state of lack of wellness? That is just the human condition. In order for one thing to make sense, we have to contrast it, to something that makes less sense. In order to appreciate the good we have to understand bad-- It is the lot of man, on this earth...

I am sorry if this doesn't relate much to your topic, but felt it an answer to your very last statements..


peace

[NoName55]

I don't know that I would call it G-D creating evil.

Does darkness exist? or does the Lack of light means darkness?
Was evil created or is it simply absense/lack of good?
wa-salaam alaikum

[جوري]

Does darkness exist? or does the Lack of light means darkness?
Was evil created or is it simply absense/lack of good?
wa-salaam alaikum

These are really great questions to reflect on...
some thoughts don't come with an absolute answer... I can't look at creation from such a low common denominator --and say G-D created evil! and why would he do that?
... I can't see myself drawing satisfaction from such simplistic conclusions... And at this stage I am comfortable not having an absolute answer as to why evil exists, or how it came to be...

:w:

[Clear]

PurestAmbrosia

I was referring to agnostics and philosophers trying to reason out why, in their mind, that God created evil. They are given this context by religionists (whether Islamic or Christian or Jewish, etc) who claim NOTHING existed before God created it. It existed after God created it and therefore the evil IS part of what God created. Because the philosophers and agnostics are given this context by the religionists, we cannot blame the agnostics for their conclusions if we have no further data explaining why God is Good.

Even though you do not call it God creating evil, the agnostics and philophers do. And they do it based on what we religionists tell them. That is why additional and better information is valuable to them (and to us).

I agree with you that God is Good, and that he only does Good, and that men do evil that is not attributable to God. Thus, the philosophers will point out that there are principles in existence (e.g. evil) which God did not create. He is not the creator of all things in this instance.

This is part of the significance of the early theologies belief either in creation from NOTHING (in which God DOES create all things - including evil), versus creation from chaotic matter (in which God creates by organizing them - in this theology he is NOT responsible for the creation of evil).

Do you see the significance of the two differences to the agnostic and the philosopher who are honestly trying to make sense of evil?

This is part of why the histories of creation and Allah's purposes and manner of creation are so important.

Clear

[poga]

That is also the way I understand it. First there was nothing. Allah(swt) simply willed it to be and it was. No running to Home Depot for building materials or looking around the universe to see if there was some scrap matter to use.

ASSALAMUALAIKUM
ALLAH did not created by will ALLAH say's when i wish to create all i have to do is to say be and it becomes
the field of nothingness is it self also was created by ALLAH the eternal everlasting:w:

[جوري]

PurestAmbrosia

I was referring to agnostics and philosophers trying to reason out why, in their mind, that God created evil. They are given this context by religionists (whether Islamic or Christian or Jewish, etc) who claim NOTHING existed before God created it. It existed after God created it and therefore the evil IS part of what God created. Because the philosophers and agnostics are given this context by the religionists, we cannot blame the agnostics for their conclusions if we have no further data explaining why God is Good.

Even though you do not call it God creating evil, the agnostics and philophers do. And they do it based on what we religionists tell them. That is why additional and better information is valuable to them (and to us).

I agree with you that God is Good, and that he only does Good, and that men do evil that is not attributable to God. Thus, the philosophers will point out that there are principles in existence (e.g. evil) which God did not create. He is not the creator of all things in this instance.

This is part of the significance of the early theologies belief either in creation from NOTHING (in which God DOES create all things - including evil), versus creation from chaotic matter (in which God creates by organizing them - in this theology he is NOT responsible for the creation of evil).

Do you see the significance of the two differences to the agnostic and the philosopher who are honestly trying to make sense of evil?

This is part of why the histories of creation and Allah's purposes and manner of creation are so important.

Clear

You make an interesting point.. and I have analogies to contrast it to, but don't wish to assimilate creation or the magistrate of G-D's thrones to events that happen in every day life, as it would be terribly disrespectful.. I find certain brands of philosophies to border upon blaspheming, or really have no purpose...
I know this is a topic all its own. and they'd probably laugh at my writing either deeming me controlled by religion, I am sitting in the privacy of my own world and can literally at this moment as any other, do as I please, it is a choice for me rather I should say a privilege to be a Muslim, who doesn't wish to engage in what I consider idle thought-- from which I gain nothing; nor arrive closer to the truth...

At least I don't believe those who pose such Q's of chaos or G-D creating evil-- wish to arrive to the truth than say mock the magistrate of G-D, and deem theists controlled by what they label "opium of the masses" Do you understand what I am saying?

Their questioning though they have a right to, isn't really goal directed, no answer will seem satisfactory to critics or certain philosophers if to critique is in their nature, they will naturally be displeased with whatever position you offer.

If I give you a knife... and observe how you use it...
you can be a surgeon and use it to heal (high morality)
you can be a chef and use it to cook (Amoral) although can border upon altruistic if you do it not just to make a profit but to feed the hungry
you can be a serial murderer and mass kill ( highly immoral)...
Though I have given you the tool... the choice is yours... Should I take credit if you have healed the same as if you have tortured? when the choice was yours all along to do as you pleased? Would the whole of creation benefit if everyone adhered to the same principles of (high morality), or how would it be if everyone and everything were evil? How can anyone contrast the state of being good or state of being bad?-- it wouldn't be earth then, with all its earthly lots--
That is how I see creation

G-D of course is aware and acquainted with all that we do!

Thanks for reading

peace!

[Clear]

PurestAmbrosia :

1)

At least I don't believe those who pose such Q's of chaos or G-D creating evil-- wish to arrive to the truth than say mock the magistrate of G-D - Purestambrosia

I think that what you are saying is true of many athiests and anti-religionists and a few agnostics, but there are many who are searching for the truth, but do not find it simply because they do not know where it is and how to recognize and understand it when they see it.

For many of us, the context of our lives, drives us to the pursuit of knowledge in specific directions that generate specific questions. The scientist or geologist will confront many religious questions of a physical nature that the book keeper may not.

I suppose that the social world in which I live is populated by a larger number of people who ask questions regarding creation, and I must agree that the questions have import to them. Some of these people are truly, simply, confused regarding physical and moral inconsistencies they see. They do not yet have either enough information or enough faith to come to religious convictions.

Some of them are given false information by (most often), well intentioned religionists and once the information is found to be nonsensical, the investigator is left to sift through so much nonsense before finding religious truths that make sense, that they often simply lose motivation to search, or worse, come to the conclusion that all religion is nonsensical and quit the search.


2)

Their questioning though they have a right to, isn't really goal directed, no answer will seem satisfactory to critics or certain philosophers if to critique is in their nature, they will naturally be displeased with whatever position you offer.

Again I find that I have to agree with you that the confirmed critic or anti-religionist will never be satisfied with even the best and obviously true answer. Such people may not be able to accept truth until their attitudes change. However, I meet with people who are in the category I mentioned before. People who are searching for more meaning and are hoping to find good data in their search. They hope to find religion that makes sense to them.

Such continuous and honest searching, Allah always rewards, in one way or another, in one degree of truth to a higher degree of truth.

Thank you for your time and understanding Pure.

Clear

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello clear,

I thought I might point out some of the earlier posts on the forum which explain the issue relating to evil:
http://www.islamicboard.com/422441-post7.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/481930-post35.html

Good is the ultimate result of all things created by God, and hence it is not appropriate to attribute to Him anything other than good. There is divine wisdom behind everything that God has decreed and created. Nothing happens except by the will of Allah.

As far as your other questions are concerned, I would like to quote the following verses from the Qur'an:

39:62 Allah is the Creator of ALL things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs.

2:117 The Originator [Badee'] of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : "Be!" - and it is.

As mentioned in the Tafsîr of this verse (such as that of the renowned Qur'anic exegete Ibn Jarîr At-Tabarî), the meaning of Allah being the Badee' of the heavens and the earth is that He created them and brought them into complete existence from no prior existence or essence.

Hope this helps.

Peace.

[Clear]

Ansar - thank you so very much for your time and links -

I very much agree that experiences contribute to the finest qualities that Allah wants us to develop (patience, kindness, honesty, etc).

I think that the athiest and philosophers agree with this specific principle. What they question is a more fundamental question of WHY, (if Allah created all things), did he created evil, or create conditions from which Allah knew evil would arise if Allah was able to accomplish the same thing without having evil.

This question only arises in theologies where Allah or God created ALL things. For Muslims or Christians, etc, who believe certain principles are NOT created, they have so such quandries.

Agnostics and philosophers ask why, if Allah COULD do anything, why did he choose to create evil as the method by which mankind becomes good; develops patience, develops character, etc. They ask: "Why not create "good men" in the first place and avoid all of the terrible evils and suffering." It is not that such athiests and philosophers are being recalcitrant and difficult to talk to, they are asking legitimate questions based on the information that we Christians (and Muslims) give them.

The Islamists and Christians who do NOT believe in creation from nothing point out that there are principles that are eternal besides Allah / God and such principles have their own characteristics which Allah / God did not creates.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What they question is a more fundamental question of WHY, (if Allah created all things), did he created evil, or create conditions from which Allah knew evil would arise if Allah was able to accomplish the same thing without having evil.

Okay first of all, the points mentioned in the other thread:

If there were no poor people where would the test be to donate generously to those in need? If there was no violence where would the test be to spread peace? If there was no injustice where would the test be to spread justice? If there was no disease and illness where would the test be to serve humanity in spreading cures and helping others? If our lives were rose gardens with no calamities or suffering, where would the test be to patiently persevere in our devotion to Our Lord? This life is a test for the next life. If we are patient in our devotion to God, if we enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, we will be rewarded in the next life. When talking about the suffering of innocents in this life, you are forgetting the whole other side of the equation, the Hereafter. Everyone will be recompensed in the Hereafter and those who persevered through difficulty will be rewarded as a result in the Hereafter.

Establish clearly that there is divine wisdom behind all things, and that what we percieve as evil is not absolute in that the end result of all things decreed by God is good. In fact these trials are a necessary component to our journey towards God and our progression in our developing relation with Him.

Now I think the question you're getting at here boils down to: "Okay, there definitely appears to be an answer to why God created 'evil'. However, wasn't there a way for God to accomplish all this without all the massive suffering humans go through?"

The answer to this question comprises two points. The first is that no matter the quantity, any amount of suffering would always seem excessive to human beings as explained in the other thread:

The answer to all instances of violence and evil in the world reduces to the same explanation, no matter how great the evil. Even if the evils were half as great as they are, wouldn't we still find them just as excessive? Dr. Jeffrey Lang comments:

Acts of mass genocide or collective human violence, like the Holocaust or the slaughter of the native Americans or the brutal enslavement of Africans in America, provide, of course, the most glaring stumbling blocks to faith, but when I thought about the issue of human suffering more deeply, I realized that for me the accumulation of even individual instances of human brutality and misery throughout time and place was equally provocative. By this I mean, why would God allow for the millions of cases of human calamity that occur each year scattered around the globe? Why would he make us so utterly vulnerable and allow for such massive cumulative violence and suffering. Even if God had made it possible for only one half or one fourth of the violence that has occurred throughout time, would I have been any less offended?

Would I not have found, from my relative vantage point, the maximum level of violence and tragedy existing in the world to be too much, whatever that upper limit is? Would I not have been perplexed by whatever level of violence God tolerated and would I not have found whatever extremes of human cruelty he allowed too extreme? What I am trying to convey here, and I truly don’t mean to downplay any of the cruelest cases of man’s inhumanity that have occurred, is that for me the problem reduced to the general existence of human violence and suffering in this world. Why is it necessary? Why is it an essential—and I assumed if there were a singular, all-powerful, all wise, creator, then it would have to be so—ingredient of our lives on earth?

If you think about it, all these instances of violence result when a human being, or a group of human beings, are entrusted with free-will and the responsibility that goes along with it, yet they fail to fulfill that responsibility and misuse the powers entrusted to them. We are not talking about instances where God sends an army of demons to fight humanity; these are all cases where simple human beings like you and I had the opportunity and the responsibility to act justly, yet they failed. Their failure is visible in the destruction that they wreaked on others.

The second point is that if we want God to allow all the good to happen without the suffering then that means that we are asking for a static relationship with Him. In other words, we can't come to our own realization concerning evil, we can develop the virtues to fight against it, all of this has to already be programmed into us. From the same thread:

If we understand that the potential of humanity is to achieve a level of virtue that is beyond even that of angels, then we can better understand the existence of evil. If we consider all those human beings in past history who sacrificed everything they owned and gave up their lives to bring peace and justice into the lives of others, we would all agree that such acts were truly noble and virtuous. Yet, in order for people to make noble sacrifice, their must be an evil force to strive against.

So if we're asking for no suffering, then you end up with a creation like the angels. They are good by default, they don't have the capability to disobey God. But if you provide free choice to creation and place in their way obstacles which they must overcome through the development of virtue, then you have a creation with the potential to be even more virtuous. (see two articles by Dr. Jeffery Lang (muslim convert) with a similar theme here and here - the latter article is especially pertinent as it addresses the specific question in detail).

As for the alternative hypothesis you proposed:

For Muslims or Christians, etc, who believe certain principles are NOT created, they have so such quandries.
[...]The Islamists and Christians who do NOT believe in creation from nothing point out that there are principles that are eternal besides Allah / God and such principles have their own characteristics which Allah / God did not creates.

First of all, aside from such an alternative being untenable from an Islamic perspective since it is in direct conflict with the teachings of the Qur'an, the alternative does not provide the purported solution to the problem. Sure it 'lifts blame' in saying that it was not God's responsibility since He didn't create it, but it suggests it was beyond His control and therefore does not call into question Epicurus's argument that such a God bereft of omnipotence is no God at all.

I maintain that the only logically coherent and comprehensive answer to such questions is to be found in Islamic theology which provides a clear and lucid description of our place in the world leaving no rational basis for objections.

I hope this helps and please do check out the links to the posted articles by Dr. Jeffery Lang.

Peace.

[Yanal]

what does this thread mean before Adam (pbuh)\creation

[Clear]

Ansar

1) I very much believe in and agree with the principles that you offer. I have heard and offered similar points many times.

However they are wonderful answers to questions the philosophers did not ask. The philosophers and athiests I referred to ask why Allah did not make a creation without evil if he was able to do so and to accomplish the same characteristics in man that evil currently accomplishes.

Your answer says that “given the current conditions”, these are some of the good effects of evil in our lives (all of which I agree with).

They question why Allah “gives the current conditions” at all. Why not create conditions where man learns and has good characteristics without evil in the world.


2) Sure it 'lifts blame' in saying that it was not God's responsibility since He didn't create it, but it suggests it was beyond His control and therefore does not call into question Epicurus's argument that such a God bereft of omnipotence is no God at all.

Perhaps you could consider what might happen if Epicurus’s definition of omnipotence was wrong. I understand the modern Islamic and Christian definition that Allah / God can do “all things”. What if there are certain principles which are eternal as he is, principles and circumstances which simply are part of the way things are.

For example, moral principles of right and wrong. Do you believe that Allah can arbitrarily define what is good and bad, right and wrong? Can he arbitrarily have said that “It is now “Good” (not “evil”) to murder and kill the innocent for no other reason than pleasure? Can he arbitrarily say it is now “good” (not evil) to lie and cheat for personal gain at the expense of another person? Can he arbitrarily say that it is “good” (not evil) to rape women and children?

Pick any of the obvious evils and ask yourself if Allah / God is able to arbitrarily define and determine Good versus Evil. Such principles cannot be redefined arbitrarily.

Clear

[Clear]

Ansar

I am sorry that I forgot to put your sentence in quotes for #2 in my last post. I cannot figure out how to return to my post and edit it....

#2 should start out as follows:
2)

Sure it 'lifts blame' in saying that it was not God's responsibility since He didn't create it, but it suggests it was beyond His control and therefore does not call into question Epicurus's argument that such a God bereft of omnipotence is no God at all. - Ansar

the rest of the post is mine.

Sorry if this was confusing to anyone.

Clear

[Woodrow]

Bro. Ansar has given you what are most likely the best answers that can be given here.

Most of us can just add personal views which may or may not be in agreement with the scholars and may not be true teachings.

I actually see much beauty and necessity in there being evil in the world. It is not so much a question of why Allah(swt) created evil, it is a question of why something was not created to prevent evil. I look at it in a simple manner. Think of eternal nothing before creation as being a blank black board. think of Allah(swt) writing on the black board and the writing being all that is created. What is left over is the absence of Allah(swt) and that is evil. It is our seperating ourselves from what Allah(swt) has created. That is called freedom of choice and free will. evil comes because we are created with choice. Choice is not possible unless we have the opposites of all things. So if we are to have choice, evil is a necessity so we are not forced to choose only good.

That is my analogy. Astagfirullah

[Clear]

Woodrow

Bro. Ansar has given you what are most likely the best answers that can be given here. - Woodrow

[/b]1)[/b] My point was that his answer did not respond to their question. It is an answer to a question they are not asking.

They would agree with Ansar that there are many times, good effects from evil. What they are asking is:

Why does allah create evil IF he is able to accomplish the same effects without evil.

2) Regarding Omnipotence - there are eternal principles which allah himself is subject to which answer the "why evil" question. Moral principles are part of such eternal "laws" which Islamic "Allah" or the Christian "God" did not arbitrarily create (not can they be changed), but are part of the nature of the way things "are".

As an example I pointed out that Allah / God, cannot arbitrarily say that what was evil, is now Good. These Moral principles are not re-definable in this way. Allah / God cannot say it is now "good" to murder the innocent, or to rape the innocent, or to steal from the innocent, etc.

What is "Good" and what is "Evil" for cognisant and empowered beings are eternal principles that cannot be changed, even by Allah or God.

IF there are unchanging and eternal principles, perhaps you could consider the implications of such eternal principles as they regard the presence of evil in this existence?

Clear

[Woodrow]

Woodrow



[/b]1)[/b] My point was that his answer did not respond to their question. It is an answer to a question they are not asking.

They would agree with Ansar that there are many times, good effects from evil. What they are asking is:

Why does allah create evil IF he is able to accomplish the same effects without evil.

2) Regarding Omnipotence - there are eternal principles which allah himself is subject to which answer the "why evil" question. Moral principles are part of such eternal "laws" which Islamic "Allah" or the Christian "God" did not arbitrarily create (not can they be changed), but are part of the nature of the way things "are".

As an example I pointed out that Allah / God, cannot arbitrarily say that what was evil, is now Good. These Moral principles are not re-definable in this way. Allah / God cannot say it is now "good" to murder the innocent, or to rape the innocent, or to steal from the innocent, etc.

What is "Good" and what is "Evil" for cognisant and empowered beings are eternal principles that cannot be changed, even by Allah or God.

IF there are unchanging and eternal principles, perhaps you could consider the implications of such eternal principles as they regard the presence of evil in this existence?

Clear

With no intent of malice and strictly from my own understanding and memory from logic classes I took nearly half a century ago.

To be honest while you have posed what appear to be very legitimate and valid questions. I view the questions to border on nonsensical and not being valid question.

A non-valid question being one that is constructed in the grammatical form of a question, but the question itself is flawed by being illogical. An example being "What would happen if an irresistible force hits an immovable object?"

Sounds like a question, looks like a question, but logically can not exist. By definition if you have an immovable object you have ruled out the possibility of there being an irresistible force, unless both are the same entity in which case the question is a moot point.

Your questions are attempting to place human qualities and attributes to Allah(swt) who is outside the realm of human attributes.

Evil is a human concept in the terms we use it. Now if we accept the fact that Allah(swt) created everything then he must have created evil. we have failed to understand that evil is not a creation, what was created is man's ability to do evil, it is a human concept of what actions or things will seperate us from Allah(swt).

Then you have the concept of labeling things such as plagues, floods, fires, as being evil creations. those are tangible visible things. However, none of them on it's own is capable of evil, it is only our thoughts and reactions to them that can give them the human quality of evil. Evil is a human quality.
It is our choice to do things that separate us from following Allah(swt). some people are just better qualified at carrying it to a larger degree than the rest of us.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Clear,

My explanation was not based on 'current conditions', I explained clearly why God created things like this in the first place. I don't know if you skipped over the entire part about angels or why God didn't just make us good in the first place, or just place us in heaven. I would encourage you to read over this article again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/273965-post12.html
These are not answers to questions atheists did not ask; Dr. Lang was an atheist with the same objections and he found them resolved through Islamic theology as explained in the above article.

These are answers to the very same question you keep repeating, I'm not sure why there seems to be a communication gap.

Regards

[Clear]

Woodrow

Evil is a human concept in the terms we use it. Now if we accept the fact that Allah(swt) created everything then he must have created evil. we have failed to understand that evil is not a creation, what was created is man's ability to do evil, it is a human concept of what actions or things will seperate us from Allah(swt).

Woodrow - I have heard this argument in the Christian forums many times and it's relationship to semantics and word play. Religionists will say:
"God did not create evil. God created men who "created" or "do" the evil."
To the philosopher this is like saying :
The Man did not create (do) evil. The man created the time bomb and the bomb itself "did" the evil.

Semantics goes both ways Woodrow. It is difficult for me to understand why you and Ansar to not understand the philosopher's question.

If Allah had complete control over his creation and all ingredients that went into his creation, and possessed the omniscience to know what the results of his creation would be, then he is responsible. (I do not believe Allah IS responsible for evil. I am simply describing logic that comes from the religious claim that Allah - God created ALL things and yet was also omniscient as to the consequences of his creation)

I am a christian theist and DO believe all of the benefits of character you are discussing. I believe ALL of these benefits are necessary as you do. These are principles common to both Islam and to Christianity

BUT, THAT is NOT the philosophers question they are asking. They are asking: Why does Allah create evil IF he possessed the ability to accomplishes all his purposes without evil? Does he lack the power to accomplish his purposes without evil? If he does, then why create evil?
THIS is their question.



Ansar :

I have read the link you gave me in your last post three times. I do NOT see the answer to the above question anywhere.

The bulk of the link is a very well done and wonderful series of ponderings as to why things ARE the way they are and the benefits that come from the way things are, but NONE of these ponderings applies to the question as to [i]Why Allah could not have done the very same things without creating evil? (i.e. done things differently)

Perhaps you could tell me the sentence in the links musing that has anything to do with THIS question the philosphers and athiest are asking.

The link says this reader of the Quran had only thirty pages to go "and [I] still could not find what real purpose life served".... He remarks that "My Muslim friends were of little help. They often did not really understand my questions,...". Do you want me to try to explain the question further?

Woodrow and Ansar - I did not come to debate these questions. I wanted more information on Islamic doctrines regarding the circumstances and purposes of and manner of creation of this world and others from the Islamic perspective. It is ok if you simply say you don't know, or that Islam doesn't have such information, I'll skip the question altogether, especially if it creates some discomfort.

It is not worth creating disharmony for me to have these answers, but to simply claim the athiests and agnostics are asking silly and nonsensical questions is not of much help to them. To them, such questions are important.

Clear

[Woodrow]

BUT, THAT is NOT the philosophers question they are asking. They are asking: Why does Allah create evil IF he possessed the ability to accomplishes all his purposes without evil? Does he lack the power to accomplish his purposes without evil? If he does, then why create evil?
THIS is their question.

We were created to have free will. With having a choice to do either good or evil, If evil did not exist, we would not have free will. Evil is one side of free will.

I do not know why He chose to create us with free will, but that is how He created us and for true free to exist evil is necessary.

[Clear]

Woodrow

We were created to have free will. With having a choice to do either good or evil, If evil did not exist, we would not have free will. Evil is one side of free will.

I very much agree with your statement. The principle requirement of having free will is another principle that is part of the way things are. Even Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. Even Allah / God MUST operate within eternal moral principles and they are not arbitrary.

[Clear]

Woodrow -

I read my post and since I cannot figure out how to go back and edit it, I thought I would clarify. I very much agree with your statement that we were meant to have free will. Free will and it's relation to evil IS an eternal principle that is part of the way things "are".

This is what I mean by the statement that Allah MUST operate by certain moral principles that are as eternal as he is. He is not able to operate outside of certain moral principles since No being, not even God/Allah, has the power to do so in any arbitrary manner. Such eternal natural laws of morality cannot be overcome.

Clear

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Clear,

1 - It's apparent that we're going in circles here. I feel that the question as to why God could not have done the same thing without percieved evil has been answered explicity and repeatedly with mention of how that would have been no different from the angels and that the virtues of humanity over them could only be accomplished via struggling through tribulations. I specifically answered also why God did not just make us 'good' and place us all in heaven in the first place. Now for some reason you feel that the real question has not even been touched on, and you certainly are free to feel that way, though we'll have to leave it at that.

2 - I also mentioned clearly that if you're trying to find support in Islamic doctrines for your philosophy of God not creating all things, you will not find it. The Qur'an mentions unequivocally that God is the Creator of ALL things and this is a fundamental tenet of Islamic theology. The moral laws are a reflection of God's nature and not external principles to which He is bound. So the answers to your questions are very clear and it does not create any discomfort.

Peace. :)

[Clear]

Ansar

I thank you for your knowledge of modern Islamic doctrine and diligent to attempt to answer these example questions the philosophers ask. I do not see any difference between them and similar questions on the christian forums. Such questions raise similar quandry and discomfort for most religionists. Thank you for your patience.


Woodrow

Thank you for your answers as well. I think that the bottom line is that there are individual Islamic opinions on but no significant hadith or quranic literature to add to the ancient histories regarding the events prior to the creation of this earth. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Clear

[Woodrow]

Ansar

I thank you for your knowledge of modern Islamic doctrine and diligent to attempt to answer these example questions the philosophers ask. I do not see any difference between them and similar questions on the christian forums. Such questions raise similar quandry and discomfort for most religionists. Thank you for your patience.




Clear

Woodrow

Thank you for your answers as well. I think that the bottom line is that there are individual Islamic opinions on but no significant hadith or quranic literature to add to the ancient histories regarding the events prior to the creation of this earth. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Yes, there are individual opinions. But, the opinions are required to be within the guidelines of not going against anything stated in the Qur'an. Because it is our opinion, we do need to state when it is our opinion and not try to claim it to be any Islamic teaching. Because something is not against the Qur'an, does not mean it is Allah's(swt) word. We are Humans and our opinions are subject to error.

[Clear]

Woodrow

Thank you for the explanation. I think that many Christians make the same Claim regarding their scriptures (i.e. something can be true only if it consistent with scriptures). However, what THEY feel is consistent depends upon their personal interpretation of scriptures.

Because of my own historical and life context, personality, etc, I do not interpret the Quran the same as some of the others here. Thus, my "Quranic based" theology may be different than another persons "Quranic based" theology.

Again, I thank you Woodrow for all of your opinions and information.

Clear

[Woodrow]

Woodrow

Thank you for the explanation. I think that many Christians make the same Claim regarding their scriptures (i.e. something can be true only if it consistent with scriptures). However, what THEY feel is consistent depends upon their personal interpretation of scriptures.

Because of my own historical and life context, personality, etc, I do not interpret the Quran the same as some of the others here. Thus, my "Quranic based" theology may be different than another persons "Quranic based" theology.

Again, I thank you Woodrow for all of your opinions and information.

Clear

Although the Qur'an itself can be a stand alone guide, it is best to seek the opinions of others also. For this we have the Sunnah, Ahadith and various Tasfirs.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Such questions raise similar quandry and discomfort for most religionists. Thank you for your patience.

So the answers to your questions are very clear and it does not create any discomfort.

I specifically corrected that misunderstanding. You are certainly free to reject the answer given on whatever grounds you like, but let's avoid what's unneccessary.

Thanks

[Clear]

I specifically corrected that misunderstanding. You are certainly free to reject the answer given on whatever grounds you like, but let's avoid what's unneccessary. - Ansar

What is "unnecessary" Ansar, is taking offense when no offense is intended. I did not offer you any offense, don't take any. I am NOT offended nor feel "superior" somehow simply because you cannot answer my questions. There are a hundred religious questions that we are simply not given the answer to by Allah. It is NO shame to not know the answer.

However, don't be frustrated or take offense if I point out that your posts don't answer my question. It's ok NOT to have the answers.

Clear

[جوري]

Clear:
May I ask and purely out of curiosity... if I had posed your same set of questions on the Christian forums where you participate, how then would you have answered?
in other words what is a satisfactory answer from your stand point?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Clear - Like I said before, there is no discomfort, I am not taking offense, and I feel that I have answered your questions directly, explicitly and irrefutably to boot. Now if you choose not to accept the answers, nor offer any critique or response to them whatsoever, it doesn't bother me, that's your choice. But please stop trying to project emotions on other people that don't belong there. Stick to the topic of the discussion rather than trying to describe others as "feeling discomfort" or "taking offense". Trust me, if I found your comments offensive, I would be the first to let you know.

Regards

[Clear]

Clear:

May I ask and purely out of curiosity... if I had posed your same set of questions on the Christian forums where you participate, how then would you have answered? in other words what is a satisfactory answer from your stand point? - Purest Ambrosia

The questions and answers might be as follows:

1) Do the early Judo/Christian traditions [ahadith] or the Old Testament/Bible [quran] discuss in any detail the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth? - Clear

I would answer: Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

2) Do the same traditions and writings [ahadith] or Judao Christian faith [Quran or Islamic faith] teach in creation of stars and planets from eternally existing matter (i.e. the organization of chaotic, but eternal matter, as some early christianity/judaism taught), or in creation from nothing (as some later christianity taught)?

Earliest writings indicate a creation from disorganized matter and NOT from "nothing". That is, the Lord God took of disorganized matter and organized it into all physical creations. The earliest writings do NOT support "magical" creation, or creation from "nothing", though creation from "nothing" has become the more popular tradition in modern christianity.

Ansar: Perhaps you could simply take a look at my answers to see what I am looking for from you.

Clear

[جوري]

Clear:


The questions and answers might be as follows:


I would answer: Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

Earliest writings indicate a creation from disorganized matter and NOT from "nothing". That is, the Lord God took of disorganized matter and organized it into all physical creations. The earliest writings do NOT support "magical" creation, or creation from "nothing", though creation from "nothing" has become the more popular tradition in modern christianity.



Clear

what do you mean by pseudographia? I don't understand what you mean by it in the context you have written-- to me is it is the production of meaningless written symbols imitating letters, the written equivalent of jargon aphasia!
by definition Jargon aphasia is a fluent or receptive aphasia in which the patient's speech is incomprehensible, but appears to make sense to them-- this unfortunately may result following a stroke ...

So I am not sure how the above can be used to describe G-D's plan for pre-creation? I'd be reluctant to accept writing that is less than lucid to describe the plan of a supreme being!...

further complicated by the need of G-D to work from disorganized matter.. well--from where did this disorganized matter come? What do you mean by that.. and how it is "magical" to believe that G-D created all of it.. as opposed to working from "Organized matter" which somehow he later fashioned.. in both cases a supreme being creates something... I am a little hesitant to see how your concept is superior to the ISlamic perspective? in fact it leaves me with an answered question of where the disorganized matter came from? Was there a bigger G-D that left a lesser G-D with disorganized matter to work with? It is absolutely nonsensical to me..

I'll use verses from two different (suras)chapters in the Quran to give you an Islamic perspective on "creation"...

Say: "Who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allah." Say: "Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" Say: "Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with Light?" Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: "Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Irresistible." Ar-Ra'd 13 16

Another can be found in Sura 52

فَلْيَأْتُوا بِحَدِيثٍ مِّثْلِهِ إِن كَانُوا صَادِقِينَ {34

}
[Yusufali 52:34] Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!
[Pickthal 52:34] Then let them produce speech the like thereof, if they are truthful.

أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ {35}

[Yusufali 52:35] Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
[Pickthal 52:35] Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators?

أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ {36

}
[Yusufali 52:36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.
[Pickthal 52:36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!

أَمْ عِندَهُمْ خَزَائِنُ رَبِّكَ أَمْ هُمُ الْمُصَيْطِرُونَ {37

}
[Yusufali 52:37] Or are the Treasures of thy Lord with them, or are they the managers (of affairs)?
[Pickthal 52:37] Or do they own the treasures of thy Lord? Or have they been given charge (thereof)?

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ {38

}
[Yusufali 52:38] Or have they a ladder, by which they can (climb up to heaven and) listen (to its secrets)? Then let (such a) listener of theirs produce a manifest proof.
[Pickthal 52:38] Or have they any stairway (unto heaven) by means of which they overhear (decrees). Then let their listener produce some warrant manifest!




If the answers given to you were unsatisfactory then I'd stick with your explanation as pleases your heart and mind and as fits with your life style..

peace!

[Clear]

PA

1)

what do you mean by pseudographia? I don't understand what you mean by it in the context you have written-- to me is it is the production of meaningless written symbols imitating letters, the written equivalent of jargon aphasia! by definition Jargon aphasia is a fluent or receptive aphasia in which the patient's speech is incomprehensible, but appears to make sense to them-- this unfortunately may result following a stroke ...- PurestAmbrosia

PureAmbrosia - are you sure you want to discuss these issues in this manner?

I cannot descend into word play or making fun of what we don’t understand. I simply don’t have the time in argument without a purpose. My purpose here was to obtain good information. If I cannot do this, I do not have any interest in staying here. I cannot tell if the answers are meant to help you appear smart, or meant to encourage me to leave the forum.

2)

Clears Question : Do the early Judo/Christian traditions [ahadith] or the Old Testament/Bible [quran] discuss in any detail the circumstances and purposes of God and spirits with him prior to the creation of this earth? - Clear

Clears answer : Yes, there are hundreds if not thousands of Judao/christian writings; older traditions, pseudographia and many discuss the Lord God's plan of sending spirits to earth; the nature of those spirits; the purposes and methods of physical creation, as well as pre-creation controversies in heaven. Because of the vast quantity of data, one must limit discussions to specific themes. I then ask what the Muslim specifically wanted to know about.

PureAmbrosia’s comment on clear’s answer: So I am not sure how the above can be used to describe G-D's plan for pre-creation? I'd be reluctant to accept writing that is less than lucid to describe the plan of a supreme being!...-PurestAmbrosia

Purest Ambrosia : I must be from another planet with different logic. For some reason, the questions I ask and the answers I get in this forum seem to be poorly unrelated. My original question was simply IF the ahadith discuss these things. Yes they do. No, they don’t. It is a very simple question.

I did not attempt to describe God’s Plan, but to merely insist that there are writings that describe the plan and conditions attending it.


3) Regarding material things being made with matter :

I am a little hesitant to see how your concept is superior to the ISlamic perspective? in fact it leaves me with an answered question of where the disorganized matter came from? Was there a bigger G-D that left a lesser G-D with disorganized matter to work with? It is absolutely nonsensical to me.. - PurestAmbrosia

I will leave you to the Islamic principle of using logic and reason to decide for yourself whether is it more reasonable to believe material things are made out of material, or out of nothing.

However, I might point out that the reason you are able to very quickly and decisively disagree is that I offered an understandable, firm doctrine for you to agree or disagree with. The better my description, the more easily you are able to determine that you disagree (or agree), and why you disagree (or agree).

If I cannot get clear answers on Islamic Doctrine, I cannot even get to the point of agreement OR disagreement. There is little chance of understanding between religions if we cannot talk clearly.

I am so very sorry to have wasted your time PurestAmbrosia. Thank you for your attempts to answer my questions. I do not think I can find what I need to find in this forum. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life.

Clear.

P.S. I've practiced medicine for almost 25 years. I understand the aphasias you describe. However, if I did not understand them, I could simply search for the definition on google. Perhaps you might want to take the few seconds it would take to look up the pseudographia.

Peace PA

[جوري]

PA

1)

PureAmbrosia - are you sure you want to discuss these issues in this manner?

I cannot descend into word play or making fun of what we don’t understand. I simply don’t have the time in argument without a purpose. My purpose here was to obtain good information. If I cannot do this, I do not have any interest in staying here. I cannot tell if the answers are meant to help you appear smart, or meant to encourage me to leave the forum.

This isn't word fun-- that is actually what I inferred from your written statement... during my undergrad/ and graduate years which I have dedicated in their entirety to science the word Pseudographia means that one thing-- Perhaps you can offer us something less illusive to work with? I don't believe anyone is holding you hostage on the forum. You came I assume through your own will, and you are certainly free to leave on the same accounts rather than resorting to these tantrums when not offered a reply to your liking?

[2)

Purest Ambrosia : I must be from another planet with different logic. For some reason, the questions I ask and the answers I get in this forum seem to be poorly unrelated. My original question was simply IF the ahadith discuss these things. Yes they do. No, they don’t. It is a very simple question.

I believe you were answered very adequately by the big guns on this fourm.

[I did not attempt to describe God’s Plan, but to merely insist that there are writings that describe the plan and conditions attending it.


3) Regarding material things being made with matter :

I will leave you to the Islamic principle of using logic and reason to decide for yourself whether is it more reasonable to believe material things are made out of material, or out of nothing.

I don't know that you can apply logic to something in the realm of the unknown a (belief)-- obviousely one concept to me is superior to another... for where did all the material things come from if there was no G-D to will them into being?

[I am so very sorry to have wasted your time PurestAmbrosia. Thank you for your attempts to answer my questions. I do not think I can find what I need to find in this forum. I hope you find peace and happiness in your life.

we wish you the same!

P.S. I've practiced medicine for almost 25 years. I understand the aphasias you describe. However, if I did not understand them, I could simply search for the definition on google. Perhaps you might want to take the few seconds it would take to look up the pseudographia.

Peace PA

Well that certainly outweighs my 1st year resident status-- so I bow humbly to you sir but that is what comes up on google! and in Dorland!

peace!