Shalom hemoo,
format_quote Originally Posted by
hemoo
Okay I want you to give me some stories of what you think is a false prophet (other than Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them)
Could you elaborate more? What do you mean stories "of what you think" is a false prophet?
Here we are not only talking about the prophet doing miracles because
God also answered his supplications immediately, saved him from his enemies, supported him, helped him, made him victorious over his enemies all of that in the same time that he says that he is a prophet and he says Allah said so and so.
Alexander the Great conquered what he had thought was the entire world before he died. Alexander, by all contemporary accounts, was a pagan idol worshipper. Are we to attribute Alexander's success to his gods (heaven forbid!)? Secondly, the book of Genesis tells us that G-d promised Abraham that Ishmael would become a great nation. The indoctrination of Islam into the Arab population and the subsequent conquest can surely be interpreted as a fulfillment of that prophecy.
I can tell you some stories of false prophets that no one now follow their lies and when they are mentioned all people know that they were impostors one of them named mosaylama the liar one time some one told him “I swear that you know that we know you are a liar” another one was killed by the hands of one of his followers.
I'm inclined to ask what the relevance of this is. There are false prophets who commanded many followers, performed miracles and were sent as
tests. Islam followed by gentiles is not a bad thing if it involves following the seven laws of Noah, however, when it claims that the must no longer Jews follow laws like the Sabbath, and Torah then it becomes false doctrine to us.
Those are the false prophets; they lose in both their life and after death.
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is very wrong. False prophets have had much success on numerous occasions, plus the again with the risk of sounding like a parrot I will remind you that the Torah specifically says that people will come and perform amazing miracles, then telling us to leave the Torah. We know of the Torah's eternity, therefore, the test is to refuse the miracles and wonders which they show you for G-d.
First according to those same rules you apply.
How do you know that your own book (Torah) is not brought by one of those misleading prophets and how can you be sure that all previous prophets were honest.
Very simple answer. At Mt.Sinai over one million Jews literally heard G-d. Which is how we judge the "proofs" of other religious texts. An example is a post that I will cut and paste from this own forum by another Jewish member who no longer posts here any longer to the best of my knowledge:
The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law! Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world. Judaism says the non-Jews who did not recieve the proofs that the Torah is divine do not need to follow it. They just have to follow the seven laws of basic morality.
Don’t tell me because some of your ancestor heard the voice of god because I will till you that it was a false miracle done to mislead them or it is a lie said by some Jews from couple of hundred of years ago and they changed in the torah (with God allowing them to change it) for it to be a test for all the Jews to come, and they even added some verses that say that the torah will never be changed. besides you never seen the prophet abraham or david or moses (Peace be upon them all)
Alright, well I will have to completely disagree with your theory for several reasons. I would also like to point out that their are considerable flaws in your attempt to create arguments based on Jewish thought.
The first: You say it was a "false" miracle, and that is fine for you to say so. Since I assume by the time you read this, you will have read the quote above, I will ask you to reread it.
"The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws."Therefore, your claim is completely on track with that we expect. Your nation never witnessed it, and passed it down from child to child, so you are by no means expected to believe it. Let us go along with your little theory though, although it completely contradicts the Quran and Islamic beliefs of Moshe and G-d after the Exodus. So, a few hundred years ago, which of course by that time the Torah was translated in many books, and the Jews were spread across the world, assuming the complete lunacy to suggest that Rabbi's all changed the Torah as a "test", do you understand that every Torah for hundreds of years would have to be changed, and that communities like the Jews of Yemen and Russia who made no contact for thousands of years yet remarkably have the same Torah, would have had to "secretly" change everything. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, do you also understand that if the Rabbis one day just told all the people that this happend and we have to pass it down from ancestor to ancestor, what would the Jewish people say? Are you nuts!?!
It’s too difficult to convince people of a historical event of this sort that never happened. This means that historical events involving masses of people are very difficult to make up. That’s why legends and mythology are always about private or “biographical” events. For example, a certain person, or small group of people, were told something by G-d (or “the gods”). Or a great hero wrestled a monster before a handful of villagers. Those things are easy to make up. But to come to a people and say, “Guess what! Your father and mother may never have told you this, but all of our ancestors experienced this cataclysmic event that forged our entire history ever since!” You’ve got a hard sell.
National revelation is a very good and probable way for G-d to reveal his Torah, so let me ask you, why do so many religions not claim to have had national revelation?
I mean, what makes more sense, telling one guy about the religion you wish to create and expecting the entire world to believe him? Or saying
"Anochi, lo yihiyeh lechah" and giving the Torah in front of the entire nation, after splitting the seas, and removing them from bondage (which more and more proof is coming from archeology supporting the fact that the Israelites were indeed slaves in Egypt and for some reason freed.)
I challenge all reading this to find me another religion which claims to have had a mass revelation and do not put all their hopes on one man saying G-d spoke to him. Of course, these religions could not claim that G-d came to the masses and said “Hello, I want to start Christianity”, because the masses don’t know anything about it. If Jesus would have told everyone “The Creator of the world came to all of us 400 years ago and told all of our ancestors to follow Jesus”, they of course would have said, “Hey Jesus, how come you’re the only one that knows about this?”. You can’t make up a story that involves the ancestors of millions upon millions of people. Not possible.
Second: I would like to explain to you how meticulous writing a Torah scroll is. He does one letter at a time, is checked over and over before going to the next, if a Torah scroll has a missing letter, then it is invalid and we cannot read from it until it is prepared. You underestimate how long we have kept the Torah and how serious of a business we take it.
I will indulge you however; the "tests"that are spoken in the Torah apply to people who wish to lead Israel away from it. To say that the Rabbi's would add for some odd reason that the Torah is eternal is an insult to our great Sages first, and second an insult to common reason? Why on earth would someone write for all these restrictive laws, that they are eternal? How would you change every Torah scroll on every continent to say the same thing you have.
How would you convince the millions of Torah scholors and people who have memorized the Torah? Impossible.
Third: What is the point of G-d even giving us the Torah if he knows it will be changed because he is all knowing? Plus, you claim I have never meant Moses, of course not, but have you ever met Mohammad? I know that millions of families all around the globe from Israel, Yemen, Russia, Nigeria, Iran and other places have all told the same story and ALL have the same Torah.
Fourth: "How then, with Torah being accepted as a nation, and G-D being WITNESSED as a nation, were the people of other religions able to convince their children, and they their own children, of the existence and truth of a lie whose very basis in logic is faulty?"
Because nobody can confirm or deny their lies.
Either G-d spoke to Mohammed or He did not. Who's to say? Except Mohammed. If you want to believe him, fine. Nobody can contradict him. The Torah is the only story that cannot be fabricated.
They did not say they were prophets and they did not do any miracles and they did not tell right prophecies about the future and no one follow their traditions now but in the same time prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) made all of that.
Moses did not say he was a prophet? He did not do any miracles? Or maybe your referring to other false prophets in Mohammad’s time? Well do not worry because the Midrashim tell us that usually when a major false prophet has arrived to test the Jewish people, he will have no competitors to challenge him in miracles so the Jewish people will not have the easy view of seeing to contradicting people conducting miracles. Therefore, your post affirms the Jewish opinion that he was a false prophet. I am of course not challenging you to disbelieve in Mohammad since his teachings are on cue with what the GENTILES are expected to follow, however, his teachings do not apply to Jews in that way.
So what do you think is a good punishment for those who say that real prophets are liars ? and those whom deny the word of God ?.
I do not know, but you clearly said:
"Don’t tell me because some of your ancestor heard the voice of god because I will till you that it was a false miracle done to mislead them."
Which according to my belief, shows that you are disputing the events at Mt.Sinai are calling Moses a liar. Which then leads me to quote you saying:
"they changed in the torah"
Which according to my belief shows that in my belief you are saying a real prophet is a liar, disputing the accounts of millions of people across the globe who continue to pass down an event that occured in Jewish thought, so what should the punishment be? Clearly, according to Judaism your in violation.
You are not just opposing the religion of Islam you are also accusing two messengers sent by god of being liars.
Nevertheless, I do not view them as messengers of G-d. I view them as people sent to test the masses. A messenger of G-d will never EVER contradict the Torah, which Jesus did when he broke the Sabbath, and Mohammad did claiming the Jews no longer should keep it.
If I began claiming I heard G-d and all the people around me told all how “honest” I was, and then I began performing miracles, would you be a follower of mine? Of course not… now why? The Quran says Mohammad was the “last prophet” therefore, I must be false. Look at that, your view of the Quran is not much different then my view of the Torah. My view also says that your following the seven laws of Noah within Islam makes you a follower of G-d, because the way you live is a valid way to follow G-d for a gentile.
and Because of what you said, I think we must discuss your opinion about god’s purpose for creating human beings.
Alright.
From what I said earlier, you are supposed to believe the words revealed to the real prophets such as the revelation given to prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H).
This real prophet sent by god that we know by evidences he is an honest messenger and he says that the torah is corrupted.
How do you know such things? How do
you know who Mohammad was? Evidence he was an honest messenger? How many people did G-d tell
"Mohammad is a prophet." What proof is there? Why didn't G-d tell million of people? Also, why did G-d provide powers to other "prophets" of various faiths which all their cohorts make the same claims you do. All the religions say their prophet was a miracle man, and he was honest, plus: “such and such.”
So whom do you believe?
The prejudiced rabbis which are committed to their believes even if those believes are wrong,
Or, an honest man who said he is a messenger sent by Allah and he showed many evidences for supporting his claims.
It is for you to decide you own choice.
Your logic is in a way very dim. It gives no credence to logic at all. You ask me for proof about Mt. Sinai, which was seen by Millions, and of course you deny it took place by which the same standard for judging history, I am not sure we can rely on anything anyone says happened because thousands of eye witnesses saw it occur, let alone millions. Let us not even get into the archeological proof of the Exodus from Egypt.
I only want the good for me, you, and for every human.
And All I want for you is to be in the true path that pleases Allah the Almighty your creator and sustainer.
Of course, I only wish the same and in no way and attempting to do anything other than defend Judaism. Attacking your faith is not a concern of mine becaue for a gentile, the laws the Torah preaches for non-Jews to follow you do when following Islam!
Again I hope none of my "energized" responses offend you, and wish you a peaceful day.