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Philosopher
04-24-2007, 10:10 PM
How did Greek beliefs in Zeus or Thor prove to be myths? Were there any evidences considered before ancient Greek religion was declared a myth?

Thanks, really appreciate honest responses.
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Woodrow
04-25-2007, 04:15 PM
:sl:

I don't think it was a question of proving them to be myths, it was a question of the inability to prove the claims the mythical gods existed.

The claims of their existence were highly visible. Such as the gods lived in a palace on Mount Olympus. After many thousands of people had climbed Mount Olympus and did not see the palace of the gods, nobody could offer acceptable proof that the palace existed.

It wasn't that they were proven to be a myth, it was that no acceptable, lasting proof could be found to prove that they were gods.

The choice had always been was it true religion or was it false religion. A negative can not be proven. The burden of proof had always been to prove that it was true religion. They are remembered as myths only because the stories and scriptures were entertaining stories and very good examples of literature. But, the various stories were not proven to be true. So, they are simply interesting stories with no lasting proof to show they are true.

It was not that they were proven to be myths, it is that no valid proof is known to show it is true.
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-25-2007, 04:19 PM
i wonder which prophet had to deal with those worshipping these ancient greek idols...
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Woodrow
04-25-2007, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i wonder which prophet had to deal with those worshipping these ancient greek idols...
In many ways they all did. The words of the Prophets(PBUH) have held up to the test of time. It is because the words of the Prophets(PBUT) were true, they had no need to disprove the myths. Because all of the Prophets brought the truth, they can all be said to have faced the believers of the false religions.


Each generation has been able to offer acceptable proof that the words of the Prophets(PBUT) were true. It is an ongoing task and the truth must be continuously proven. The words of the Prophets lasted.

Nobody had to proof the myths were false, the burden was for the adherents to prove they were true. The Prophets(PBUT) came with words that they could offer proof for.

The myths fell to the wayside as fallacies, not because anybody came to disprove them, but because none of them could offer lasting acceptable proof of being true.

The challenge the Greeks faced was not that anybody came with proof that the old religions were false. They came with the ability to prove that the words of the Prophets(PBUT) were true. The people were then faced with the choice of accepting that which carried proof with it or to continue accepting that which they could not prove.

My long triad above can be summed up with the statement that all of the Prophets(PBUT) faced them, simply by having passed on provable words. Provable truth will eventually replace unprovable myths.
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Philosopher
04-25-2007, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

I don't think it was a question of proving them to be myths, it was a question of the inability to prove the claims the mythical gods existed.

The claims of their existence were highly visible. Such as the gods lived in a palace on Mount Olympus. After many thousands of people had climbed Mount Olympus and did not see the palace of the gods, nobody could offer acceptable proof that the palace existed.

It wasn't that they were proven to be a myth, it was that no acceptable, lasting proof could be found to prove that they were gods.

The choice had always been was it true religion or was it false religion. A negative can not be proven. The burden of proof had always been to prove that it was true religion. They are remembered as myths only because the stories and scriptures were entertaining stories and very good examples of literature. But, the various stories were not proven to be true. So, they are simply interesting stories with no lasting proof to show they are true.

It was not that they were proven to be myths, it is that no valid proof is known to show it is true.
Wouldnt that apply to all religions as well?
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Keltoi
04-25-2007, 05:40 PM
The simple historical reason is because Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. Christianity then spread throughout Europe, replacing the old pagan gods. The old Norse gods were replaced, the old Saxon gods were replaced, and on and on. A religion is mythology when people stop accepting it as a faith.
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Woodrow
04-25-2007, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Wouldnt that apply to all religions as well?
Yes it would, given sufficient time, truth will replace the false.

Falsehoods can only exist through force, lies or by the with holding of knowledge. believe in something will cease when people can no longer find a provable reason for it to be true.

Fallacy is a vacuum, it is not knowing the truth. A fallacy can not be proven to be a fallacy, because you can not prove a nothing. Substance will fill a vacuum and truth is the most solid of substance.

A lesson we can learn from Greek, roman, Norse mythology, is that nobody had to prove them wrong. They were simply replaced with more verifiable statements. they did not die out from a massive attack to disprove them, they starved to death as there was no proof to feed them.

It is true that many still do not know the True Religion, but each generation gets closer as the truth simply fills in the vacuum of ignorance. It is a big world and there is a big vacuum that needs to be filled. But, given time that vacuum will be filled.
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Woodrow
04-25-2007, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The simple historical reason is because Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. Christianity then spread throughout Europe, replacing the old pagan gods. The old Norse gods were replaced, the old Saxon gods were replaced, and on and on. A religion is mythology when people stop accepting it as a faith.
Quite True. As truth and near truth become known, It will replace ignorance.

As a Christian You probably believe that your job with them is finished and all that remains is maintenance to keep any pot holes from forming.

As a Muslim I thank you for clearing the land and delivering some of the building materials, now we will complete the construction.

I found this to be an excellent statement you made.

A religion is mythology when people stop accepting it as a faith.
I'll keep that in my memory and probably use it to explain what myths are when my Grandkids are old enough to ask. I will remember to let them know I "Borrowed" the definition from you.
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rav
04-25-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Wouldnt that apply to all religions as well?
Shalom,

Of course, but the difference is that I believe the Greeks thought of their gods as tangible, while we view Hashem as intangible.
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Woodrow
04-25-2007, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Shalom,

Of course, but the difference is that I believe the Greeks thought of their gods as tangible, while we view Hashem as intangible.
That was one factor that kept making it more difficult to find valid proof. It is very difficult to say your god lives in a palace on Mount Olympus and then when you climb Mount Olympus you can't see the Palace.
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Abdul Fattah
04-26-2007, 12:34 AM
First a small remark, not that it really matters, but thought I'd comment on it either way, Thor is not a Greek God, he was a Deity from Norse mythology.

I think Keltoi said it best: a religion becomes a myth when people stop accepting it as faith.

Now how come people stopped accepting it? Well that's a difficult process and it's hard to determine a single main cause for it. The ancient Greek Gods were first modified by the Romans when they conquered Greece. The Romans had somethinng they Called "pax Romana" which means: "Roman peace". Basically this meant that they thought the only way to have peace is to have the whole world follow our way. It's a bit similar to the way Bush is imposing western democracy to the rest of the world. However on the other hand they realised that the Greek culture and the complexity of their religion made the Roman one look like a step back for the Greeks, so in order to make the pax romana work, they simply adapted their deitys and gave them a new Roman name and spin. Zeus for example became Jupiter, Poseidon became Neptune, Hades became Mars, Aphrodite became Venus, ...
Then after the trend had been set, many centuries later these Gods were again traded in for a more popular belief as Christianity was spreading. Here's a nice summary of how Christianity rose to power against the Roamn believes and the problems that went along with it.
http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html
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Muslim Knight
04-26-2007, 01:16 AM
Interesting of how Greek people discarded their gods and goddesses so easily when they were absorbed into the Roman Empire, much more interesting to note that how even in the same strange way the Romans discarded their own gods and goddesses in favor of Christianity while Hindu deities can survive up to this date for more than 4,000 years!
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Interesting of how Greek people discarded their gods and goddesses so easily when they were absorbed into the Roman Empire, much more interesting to note that how even in the same strange way the Romans discarded their own gods and goddesses in favor of Christianity while Hindu deities can survive up to this date for more than 4,000 years!
When the Roman Emperor says jump, you ask how high.
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Abdul Fattah
04-26-2007, 01:21 AM
Well I geuss since it was just changing the names and adding a few extra stories that it was a nice compromise for them. It is said that cultural Greece looked a bit down on the young Roman empire, but I guess they didn't really had a choice and probably thought something like: "well we'll play along and let the litlle babies have their lollies", since not much changed for them on a practical level anyway.
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Keltoi
04-26-2007, 01:25 AM
The Romans looked at Greek thought and culture sort of like a cavepainter admiring fine art from Italy. The Romans were a very warlike people who absorbed Greek philosophy and culture and sort of built Greece in their own image.
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ranma1/2
04-26-2007, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The simple historical reason is because Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. Christianity then spread throughout Europe, replacing the old pagan gods. The old Norse gods were replaced, the old Saxon gods were replaced, and on and on. A religion is mythology when people stop accepting it as a faith.
Pretty simple, pretty well said. For that matter every religion is pretty much a mythology to someone. Certain religions that make it more difficult to define the gods do ahve that advatantage. Invisible gods are useful in that aspect.
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Philosopher
04-26-2007, 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Pretty simple, pretty well said. For that matter every religion is pretty much a mythology to someone. Certain religions that make it more difficult to define the gods do ahve that advatantage. Invisible gods are useful in that aspect.
Atheism is a mythology to me.
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Hemoo
04-26-2007, 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Falsehoods can only exist through force, lies or by the with holding of knowledge. believe in something will cease when people can no longer find a provable reason for it to be true.

A lesson we can learn from Greek, roman, Norse mythology, is that nobody had to prove them wrong. They were simply replaced with more verifiable statements. they did not die out from a massive attack to disprove them, they starved to death as there was no proof to feed them.
you can also Add the mythologies of the Pharaoh in egypt they also used to have so many gods

and we are waiting for Hinduism & Buddhism to follow those false ways of Polytheism

one by one from the believes of many gods then those of the three god untill people reach the true monotheism of only one true GOD
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ranma1/2
04-26-2007, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Atheism is a mythology to me.
lol, its not a mythology, its not even a religion. Its simply the belief that there is no god. However if you do hear that there is an atheist god it is a myth.
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Muslim Knight
04-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
lol, its not a mythology, its not even a religion. Its simply the belief that there is no god. However if you do hear that there is an atheist god it is a myth.

Aye, atheists are people without religion or beliefs. As such when they die they will not be remembered for their beliefs because they have none. Instead, like the emptiness they believe to be their end after death, the historians will have nothing to write about them. Compare to the cavemen with their animism, Greeks and Romans for their beliefs, albeit paganism, the Persians for Ahura Mazda, Christians for Trinitarianism, Muslim for Islam and so on.
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ranma1/2
04-26-2007, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Aye, atheists are people without religion or beliefs. As such when they die they will not be remembered for their beliefs because they have none. Instead, like the emptiness they believe to be their end after death, the historians will have nothing to write about them. Compare to the cavemen with their animism, Greeks and Romans for their beliefs, albeit paganism, the Persians for Ahura Mazda, Christians for Trinitarianism, Muslim for Islam and so on.
Wow sounds like you dont know that much about atheists. We deffinetly have beliefs. Just not one in a god or gods. As for end after death, nope all atheism deals with is god. Buddhists can be atheists and they normally believe in reincarnation. Historians will have as much to write about atheists as any other individual but I imagine there will be no atheists holly wars in recorded history.
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Pygoscelis
04-27-2007, 12:13 AM
It is important to note the difference between the words "myth" and "mythology". The latter term does not necesarily imply a falsehood. Any spiritual belief involving gods, stories about those gods, and the afterlife can be properly termed "mythology".
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Laith Al-Doory
04-27-2007, 12:23 AM
Greek ideas where quite simply adopted into Christianity. The doctrine of not judging others is in fact Hermetic in origin. The Gospel was after all written in Greek. And Christians, for their part, still practice idolatry.
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Pygoscelis
04-27-2007, 01:40 AM
True enough. There is little you will find in the bible that can not be traced to earlier religious belief systems. Noah, Moses, Jesus, it had all been told before with different names.
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Muslim Knight
04-27-2007, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Wow sounds like you dont know that much about atheists. We deffinetly have beliefs. Just not one in a god or gods. As for end after death, nope all atheism deals with is god. Buddhists can be atheists and they normally believe in reincarnation. Historians will have as much to write about atheists as any other individual but I imagine there will be no atheists holly wars in recorded history.
Yep. I don't know much about atheism because it's not organized set of beliefs as in religion. All the historians could write is, "Atheism: No God" that is all.

No holy wars? What war can be holy when the people perpetrating it, are essentially amoral and godless? Can you deem Iraq war as holy? Do we hear Christian Crusaders of America on the news line?
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Philosopher
04-27-2007, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
True enough. There is little you will find in the bible that can not be traced to earlier religious belief systems. Noah, Moses, Jesus, it had all been told before with different names.
Evidence? Okay....I agree with the Jesus part (Trinity), but Noah and Moses are unrelated to Sumerian pagan myths.
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Pygoscelis
04-27-2007, 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Evidence? Okay....I agree with the Jesus part (Trinity), but Noah and Moses are unrelated to Sumerian pagan myths.
Noah type stories are all over the place in ancient mythology. Look up Gilgamesh for starters. For moses look up meses and nebo (sp?) (egyptian and their precursors). For Jesus, you can start with your sumerian myths, then look to Osiris then take a look at norse mythology (I don't recall the norse god but there was one similar to the Jesus story).

A lot of christian mythology stems from ancient astrology. If you ever get a chance to check out an ancient christian church look for the zodiac. Its usually very prominent.
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Keltoi
04-27-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Noah type stories are all over the place in ancient mythology. Look up Gilgamesh for starters. For moses look up meses and nebo (sp?) (egyptian and their precursors). For Jesus, you can start with your sumerian myths, then look to Osiris then take a look at norse mythology (I don't recall the norse god but there was one similar to the Jesus story).

A lot of christian mythology stems from ancient astrology. If you ever get a chance to check out an ancient christian church look for the zodiac. Its usually very prominent.
A Norse god was similar to the "Jesus story" huh? What are you suggesting? That Jesus Christ and his disciples knew about the Norse gods from the great cold north and thought.."cool!, I want to be like those guys"?
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Muezzin
04-27-2007, 02:46 PM
Biblical (I use the word loosely to cover all Abrahamic faiths) stories have cropped up in ancient mythology in some form. The guy with a strange birth, who is shunned and subjected to trials, and later turns out to be a great boon. It's a basic storytelling framework, present in everything from 'The Ugly Duckling' to 'Star Wars'. In 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces', Joseph Cambell suggests this is the product of a Jungian mass unconscious, but it does not necessarily imply that messages and stories in holy texts are fantasy.

Gilgamesh is a cool story by the way.
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Woodrow
04-27-2007, 03:37 PM
I do notice that the words Myth and mythology are being misused.

Myth's are former beliefs that ceased to be beliefs because of lack of proof.


Mythology is the study of myths.

ie: Bi-ology the study of 2 specificaly in reference to flora and fauna (2 lives)

Ge-ology study of geo (The earth)

psych-ology- study of the psyche

myth-ology- study of myths

The interesting thing about myths is it seems that all are based upon some observable event and the myth developed to explain the event.

Some are readily understood. Lightening was observed. People did not know what it was, so suggestions were made. The more plausable explanations lasted and became elaborated. Lightening must be fire, the fire is moving, somebody must be throwing it, so you have now described Thor, Zeus, Jupiter etc.

This is what is most fascinating thing about the Abrahamic beliefs. the belief of the one Monotheistic God(swt) does not appear to come from a need to explain anything. Allah(swt) revealed himself to mankind. It was through what he revealed that we later saw that it explained events.

(I can't explain exactly what I mean. But, Allah(swt) was revealed before we sought explanations)
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YEh
04-28-2007, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do notice that the words Myth and mythology are being misused.

Myth's are former beliefs that ceased to be beliefs because of lack of proof.


Mythology is the study of myths.

ie: Bi-ology the study of 2 specificaly in reference to flora and fauna (2 lives)

Ge-ology study of geo (The earth)

psych-ology- study of the psyche

myth-ology- study of myths

The interesting thing about myths is it seems that all are based upon some observable event and the myth developed to explain the event.

Some are readily understood. Lightening was observed. People did not know what it was, so suggestions were made. The more plausable explanations lasted and became elaborated. Lightening must be fire, the fire is moving, somebody must be throwing it, so you have now described Thor, Zeus, Jupiter etc.

This is what is most fascinating thing about the Abrahamic beliefs. the belief of the one Monotheistic God(swt) does not appear to come from a need to explain anything. Allah(swt) revealed himself to mankind. It was through what he revealed that we later saw that it explained events.

(I can't explain exactly what I mean. But, Allah(swt) was revealed before we sought explanations)
Don't think that's quite true with regard to Abrahamic beliefs. It does explain a version of where we came from, why we are here. The authors obviously wanted to organise a structure to the religion.
It's even more of a blanket statement like thunder, storm, rain, babies, etc.
God did it.
But Christianity is a little different since it confirms the Jewish scripture and where the use of religion in mythology was to get people to do stuff for the God's/God like Islam, Judaism, Norse, Rhomanemi, Roman, Egyptian, etc...

Jesus and Paul stated that men don't honestly know how to worship God. They don't know what to pray, how to behave according to his statutes, etc.. There are only two commands Jesus asks of us 1. "Worship the Lord your God, with all your heart, mind and spirit". 2. "And love your neighbor as yourself."
The Holy Spirit intercedes on behalf of the person and Christians just try to improve, but don't claim to know anything accept that Jesus was the Son Of God as stated in the Jewish scriptures and that the Holy Spirit was also foretold in the Jewish scriptures as being the one who confirms the prophecy "I will pour out my spirit upon the nations". "And I will make a new covenant with people who are not a people (Gentiles)".

So Christianity seems very different compared to other religions it says. It's not what you can do for me, it's what I can do for you.
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Laith Al-Doory
04-28-2007, 02:12 PM
With the persicution of the Gnostics, Christianity also lacks any metaphysical content. It could be argued that Christianity is not a religion at all, but like Marxism or Fascism, it is an ideology.

In many respects the Christian version of Jesus (as opposed to the Islamic) fulfills the role of the Christian Antichrist. He comes in his own name (Jesus) rather than in the name of the Isralite God (Yahovah). All the idols are pulled down, except his own. Likewise, the Vatican is regarded by Protestant Christians as the '***** of Babylon'.
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Pygoscelis
04-28-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Yep. I don't know much about atheism because it's not organized set of beliefs as in religion. All the historians could write is, "Atheism: No God" that is all.
This is correct.

Atheists will not be remembered beyond that, for being atheists.

They will however be remembered for the ideologies that they DO hold, be they humanist, buddhist, or what have you.
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YEh
04-29-2007, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Laith Al-Doory
With the persicution of the Gnostics, Christianity also lacks any metaphysical content. It could be argued that Christianity is not a religion at all, but like Marxism or Fascism, it is an ideology.

In many respects the Christian version of Jesus (as opposed to the Islamic) fulfills the role of the Christian Antichrist. He comes in his own name (Jesus) rather than in the name of the Isralite God (Yahovah). All the idols are pulled down, except his own. Likewise, the Vatican is regarded by Protestant Christians as the '***** of Babylon'.
No I don't think so at all. Jesus fulfilled the law and the OT rituals and prophecies. Anybody who denies the anointed one is an anti-christ.
Hence the word anti.
How could Christ be anti-christ. He knew the OT like the back of his hand. He talked with the learnt scholars of Judaism when he was 12.
He knew men's hearts, he confirmed the law and obeyed it to death.

He was not an anti-christ. How absurd and dishonest :?

YEh
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YEh
04-29-2007, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Laith Al-Doory
With the persicution of the Gnostics, Christianity also lacks any metaphysical content. It could be argued that Christianity is not a religion at all, but like Marxism or Fascism, it is an ideology.
Metaphysical ? Christianty and Judaism has the most metapysical content.

Have you ever read one of the gospels especially the gospel of John.
Who is the door ? Who are the wheat and the chaff ? Who is the lamb ?

Christianity is almost fully spiritual. No do this do that. Black and white laws.
Which is typical of religions of the world.
Jesus didn't even call himself God. He just left it to you to work out.
But when asked he did not deny it. Like he denied being good. :?

YEh
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Laith Al-Doory
04-30-2007, 11:47 AM
Judaism has the Kabbalah. There is no equivilent in Christianity. In Christianity, an antichrist is one who sets himself up as a god. 'You shall be gods' said the serpent to Eve. Muslims and Jews regard the elevation of Jesus into godhood as idolatry, hence the Christian Christ becomes an Antichrist, as opposed to the Jesus of the Qur'an, which describes Jesus as the purest of the prophets and the closest to God.
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YEh
05-02-2007, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by Laith Al-Doory
Judaism has the Kabbalah. There is no equivilent in Christianity. In Christianity, an antichrist is one who sets himself up as a god. 'You shall be gods' said the serpent to Eve. Muslims and Jews regard the elevation of Jesus into godhood as idolatry, hence the Christian Christ becomes an Antichrist, as opposed to the Jesus of the Qur'an, which describes Jesus as the purest of the prophets and the closest to God.
Actually an anti-christ is someone who denies Christ as their Lord and saviour according to Christianity. A non-Christian is an anti-Christ.

And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Abraham is in the first heaven and Jesus is in the third heaven.
Don't know how that works since, does't Islam also say that the prophets didn't sin ?

So doesn't that mean that all prophets should have been judged the same i.e. all should be in the same heaven ? :?

YEh
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