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- Qatada -
04-25-2007, 12:15 PM
:salamext:

“O Christ-Worshippers!”:
A Qasidah Which Refutes Christianity


Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jauziyyah was a prominent Muslim jurist during Islam's Golden Age. Apart from his jurisdistic prowess, he was also competent in composing qasidah (Arabic poetry). Among his more famous works was the qasidah entitled A'obbad al-Maseeh Fi Naqd al-Nasraniyyah (O Christ-Worshippers! In Refuting Christianity). This qasidah is well-known in the Muslim world and has even been turned into a song. The following is the English translation of the poetry which is immediately accompanied by the Arabic original.

O Christ-worshippers! We want an answer to our question [from your wise ones],

If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act, what kind of god is this?

We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
But if He was discontented, this means their power has subjugated Him!

Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?
Were the heavens vacated, when He laid under the ground somewhere?

Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage while His hands were nailed?
Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard him while he wailed?

How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,

How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?
How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear,
And was Christ revived by himself, or the Reviver was another god?

What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,


What is more weird is the belly that had confined Him!

He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!

Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,1
Is this [what you call] a god?

High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
O Cross-worshippers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?
Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it?2

Since the Lord was crucified on it, and his hands were fastened to it?
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!3
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
Why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
Since the grave contained your god in it?
So Christ-worshipper, open your eyes,
This is what the matter is all about.4

Arabic:
أعباد المسيح لنا سؤال … نريد جوابه ممن وعاه
إذا مات الإله بصنع قوم … أماتوه فما هذا الإله
وهل أرضاه ما نالوه منه … فبشراهم إذاً نالوا رضاه
وإن سخط الذي فعلوه فيه … فقوّتهم إذاً أوهت قِواه
وهل بقي الوجود بلا إله … سميع يستجيب لمن دعاه
وهل خلتِ الطباق السبع لما … ثوى تحت التراب وقد علاه
وهل خلت العوالم من إلهٍ … يدبرها وقد سُمرَت يداه
وكيف تخلت الأملاك عنه … بنصرهم وقد سمعوا بكاه
وكيف أطاقت الخشبات حمل الإله … الحق شد على قفاه
وكيف دنا الحديد إليه حتى … يخالطه ويلحقه أذاه
وكيف تمكنت أيدي عداه … وطالت حيث قد صفعوا قفاه
وهل عاد المسيح إلى حياة … أم المحيي له ربّ سواه
ويا عجباً لقبر ضم رباً … وأعْجَبَ منه بطن قد حواه
أقام هناك تسعا من شهور … لدى الظلمات من حيضٍ غِذَاه
وشق الفرج مولودا صغيرا … ضعيفا فاتحا للثدى فاه
ويأكل ثم يشرب ثم يأتي … بلازم ذاك هل هذا إله
تعالى الله عن إفك النصارى … سيسأل كلهم عما افتراه
أعباد الصليب لأي معنى … يعظّم أو يقبّح من رماه
وهل تقضى العقول بغير كسر … وإحراق له ولمن بغاه
إذا ركَبَ الإله عليه كرها … وقد شدت لتسمير يداه
فذاك المركب الملعون حقا … فدسه لا تبسه إذا تراه
يهان عليه رب الخلق طرّا … وتعبده فإنك من عداه
فإن عظّمته من أجل أن قد … حوى رب العباد وقد علاه
وقد فقد الصليب فإن رأينا … له شكلا تذكرنا سناه
فهلا للقبور سجدت طُرّا … لضم القبر ربَّك في حشاه
فيا عبد المسيح أفق فهذا … بدايته وهذا منتهاه
  1. Urination and defecation [back]
  2. Paul of Tarsus, founder of Trinitarian faith [back]
  3. i.e., don't glorify it [back]
  4. i.e., since someone who is a Christian abhors the idea of worshipping a grave, how is it possible for them to worship the cross? [back]
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Mawaddah
04-25-2007, 12:40 PM
:sl:

Masha'allah , Jazakallah Khair, I love Ibnul Qayyims poems. :)
Reply

Have Faith
04-26-2007, 11:05 AM

Jazakhallah Qhayran For Sharing Bro ..
Reply

Angelzz
08-29-2007, 12:49 PM
Assalamu Alaykum everyone ,

Not sure if this has been posted before but i came across it today and i thought ill share it with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWKQi...elated&search=
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Nawal89
08-29-2007, 01:24 PM
That was awesome subhanallah. So true :'(
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Zman
08-29-2007, 02:50 PM
:sl:

Jazakum Allah Khair, for that beautiful poem...
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
08-30-2007, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by Angelzz
Assalamu Alaykum everyone ,

Not sure if this has been posted before but i came across it today and i thought ill share it with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWKQi...elated&search=
:wasalamex

JazakAllah khayr for posting that up, ukhtee. !!!سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَى عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

Thread merged.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
10-02-2007, 01:26 AM
Oh, Christ worshipers! A Poem Refuting Christianity

Poem of Ibnul Qayim (English with Arabic)



قصيدة : أعباد المسيح في نقض النصرانية

Oh, Christ worshipers! A Poem Refuting Christianity



أعباد المسيح لنا سؤال ... نريد جوابه ممن وعاه

Oh, Christ worshipers! We want an answer to our question from your wise.



إذا مات الإله بصنع قوم ... أماتوه فما هذا الإله

If the Lord was murdered by some people’s act…what sort of god is this?


وهل أرضاه ما نالوه منه ... فبشراهم إذاً نالوا رضاه

We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did Him? If yes,
blessed be they..they achieved the pleasure of His




وإن سخط الذي فعلوه فيه ... فقوّتهم إذاً أوهت قِواه

But if He was discontented… .this means their power subjugated His!!



وهل بقي الوجود بلا إله ... سميع يستجيب لمن دعاه

Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer… so who answered the prayers?



وهل خلتِ الطباق السبع لما ... ثوى تحت التراب وقد علاه

Were the heavens vacated…when He laid under the ground somewheres?



وهل خلت العوالم من إلهٍ ... يدبرها وقد سُمرَت يداه

Were all the worlds left without a God…to manage while His hands were nailed?



وكيف تخلت الأملاك عنه ... بنصرهم وقد سمعوا بكاه

Why did not the angles help Him when they heard him while he wailed?



وكيف أطاقت الخشبات حمل الإله ... الحق شد على قفاه

How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened



وكيف دنا الحديد إليه حتى ... يخالطه ويلحقه أذاه

How could the iron reach Him and His body pinioned?



وكيف تمكنت أيدي عداه ... وطالت حيث قد صفعوا قفاه

How could His enemies’ hands reach Him and slap His rear



وهل عاد المسيح إلى حياة ... أم المحيي له ربّ سواه

And was Christ revived by himself…or the Reviver was another god?




ويا عجباً لقبر ضم رباً ... وأعْجَبَ منه بطن قد حواه

What a sight it is!A grave that enclosed a god!
What’s more weird is the belly that had Him in it!



أقام هناك تسعا من شهور ... لدى الظلمات من حيضٍ غِذَاه

He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness…fed by blood!



وشق الفرج مولودا صغيرا ... ضعيفا فاتحا للثدى فاه

Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
weak and gaping to be breastfed!



ويأكل ثم يشرب ثم يأتي ... بلازم ذاك هل هذا إله

He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted in. [1]
Is this a god??!!


تعالى الله عن إفك النصارى ... سيسأل كلهم عما افتراه

High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians
All of them will be held accountable for their libels



أعباد الصليب لأي معنى ... يعظّم أو يقبّح من رماه

Oh cross worshipers…for what reason is it exalted
and blamed who rejects it?



وهل تقضى العقول بغير كسر ... وإحراق له ولمن بغاه

Is it not the logic to break and burn it along with the one who innovated it? [2]



إذا ركَبَ الإله عليه كرها ... وقد شدت لتسمير يداه

Since the Lord was crucified on it…and his hands were fastened to it?



فذاك المركب الملعون حقا ... فدسه لا تبسه إذا تراه

That is really a cursed cross to carry…so discard it
Don’t kiss it! [3]



يهان عليه رب الخلق طرّا ... وتعبده فإنك من عداه

The Lord was abused on it…and you adore it?
So you are one of His enemies!!



فإن عظّمته من أجل أن قد ... حوى رب العباد وقد علاه

If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the worlds



وقد فقد الصليب فإن رأينا ... له شكلا تذكرنا سناه

why don’t you prostrate yourself and worship graves,



فهلا للقبور سجدت طُرّا ... لضم القبر ربَّك في حشاه

since the grave contained your god in it?


فيا عبد المسيح أفق فهذا ... بدايته وهذا منتهاه


So, Christ worshiper, open your eyes,
this is what the matter is all about. [4]


From among his more famous works the qasidah entitled A'obbad al-Maseeh Fi Naqd al-Nasraniyyah (O Christ-Worshippers! In Refuting Christianity).

Footnotes

1- Urination and defecation
2- Paul of Tarsus. Founder of Trinity faith.
3- Don't glorify it
4- Since you, as a Christian abhor the idea of worshipping a grave,
how come you find it o.k. to worship the cross??????


http://forpeopleofunderstanding.blog...%20Non-Muslims
Reply

john316
02-03-2008, 06:17 PM
I think I posted some questions on this thread about whether Jesus of the Bible commited any sin from a Muslim perspective. Apart from him claiming to be God which you Muslims believe to be a sin. I dont see that post anywhere. Is it deleted.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
02-03-2008, 07:11 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Jazaak'Allah Khair for this benefical poem! Keep it going!

Wa salaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima
Reply

MustafaMc
02-03-2008, 07:22 PM
If Jesus (as) is the Son of God and simultaneously God, why would he say, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?" Mark 15"34, Matthew 27:46? Not that I believe Jesus (as) said that, but the point is that in the Bible he is referring to another being as "his God" and how can God forsake (renounce or turn away from entirely) himself.

If Jesus (as) is God, why would he say, "Abba, Father! All things are possible for you; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what You will." Luke 22:42, Mark 14:36, Matthew 26:39? Jesus' (as) will was clearly different from that of the One he was praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane, yet he was willing to submit his personal will to that of "the Father". We know that the One God can't have two contrasting wills at the same time.

If Jesus (as) is God, how could he be tempted by "the kingdoms of the world and their glory" if only he "fall down and worship" the devil Matthew 4:8-9? How can God be tempted with the ownership of His creation that He already owns? May Allah forgive me for saying, but how is it possible for God to worship the devil?
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
12-19-2008, 09:54 AM
:sl:
*bump...

great poem :thumbs_up
Reply

Danah
12-19-2008, 11:12 AM
Subhan allah, that was so true and amazing. Christians need to do some more thinking about it
Reply

Eric H
12-19-2008, 06:04 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

For Christians the death and resurrection of Jesus has a profound meaning. We are created in the image of God, and we pray to God our Father.

I read the poem with a sadness, that we are not very kind to others when we judge their beliefs.

Sadly Christians also say the same kind of things about non-Christian beliefs.

In the spirit of praying for a greater tolerance and understanding between our faiths.

Eric
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
12-20-2008, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I read the poem with a sadness, that we are not very kind to others when we judge their beliefs.
greetings to you too Eric,
im sorry you feel that way.... i dont think the poem was written to mock Christianity, but rather to provoke thinking... :peace:
salaam (peace)
Reply

Eric H
12-20-2008, 08:34 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Ramlah;
greetings to you too Eric,
im sorry you feel that way.... i dont think the poem was written to mock Christianity, but rather to provoke thinking... :peace:
salaam (peace)
The first half of the poem asks all the questions that challenge our faith, and we need to find answers for ourselves. I believe that these kind of questions are justified, because they do cause us to think.

The second part of the poem changes and makes judgements, and I will just highlight two lines.
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
I believe that if we are to read other people's scriptures we should search for the good in them.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
12-20-2008, 08:45 AM
greeting to you too Eric...
Originally Posted by Eric H
I believe that if we are to read other people's scriptures we should search for the good in them.
even though we are refuting them?

Salaam (peace)
Reply

Eric H
12-20-2008, 07:31 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Ramlah;
even though we are refuting them?

Salaam (peace)
[/QUOTE]
During the past three years on this forum many of you have posted passages from the Koran, and then say how it affects your lives. When I read these passages I try and look for the good in them so that I might learn more. Often it helps me to look at my own faith from another perception and gain a deeper understanding.

I feel that I gain far more searching for the good within your scriptures, than I would if I spent my time trying to refute them. I have a deep faith in the Bible, for me it carries authority and power. I find it a great inspiration from which I can find an inner peace that surpasses all understanding.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
12-26-2008, 12:30 PM
:sl:
does anyone know what the actual source of the Qassidah (poem) is...like the book it was taken from, etc :?
Reply

tolpuddle
06-19-2017, 03:56 PM
What kind of God is this ? - a kindly, self-sacrificing God.

God is both the Cosmokrator - Ruler of the Universe - and Cosmic Victim, both the All-Powerful and the All-Powerless ("One of the names of God is a groan", said Mohammed).

As God can be in an infinite number of places at once, both running the universe from heaven AND being simultaneously on the Cross was completely possible to Him.

We don't worship the cross (why do you lyingly pretend that we do ?) - we worship Christos, the Anointed One of God ( = God). Christ-worshippers = God-worshippers.

Only your ignorance and misunderstanding of Christ and Christianity save you from God's wrath.

Jesus had two natures; human and divine; He suffered and died only in His human nature.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-19-2017, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
greeting to you too Eric...


even though we are refuting them?

Salaam (peace)
Correction: "Trying to refute them."
Reply

tolpuddle
06-19-2017, 04:09 PM
Jesus - though God - was turned into sin, became Accursed, while upon the cross - so as to deliver humanity from ITS curse.

At the moment of His worst suffering (in His human nature), He experienced Hell - separation from God - even though He was God Himself.

To express His agony at that moment, He cried out words from a Jewish psalm: "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me ?"

Jesus was tempted by the devil - but only in His human nature, not in His divine nature. Similarly, Jesus felt terrible agony in His human nature while in the Garden of Gethsemane; though not in His divine nature (since God is "impassible" - does not suffer).

The paradox you are wrestling with, is of a person - Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus the Messiah [Christos] - who was simultaneously both human and divine; both a Jewish carpenter (turned wandering rabbi) AND Allah.
Reply

Abz2000
06-19-2017, 06:13 PM
I didn't read the whole poem but stopped here:

We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
But if He was discontented, this means their power has subjugated Him!
Sins such as the unjust murder of the Prophets for example Yahya :saws: (John the baptist) do not please Allah , the people who commit such sins are not blessed but rather draw upon themselves the wrath of Allah, and even though He is not contented by such flagrant crimes, Allah is in no way subjugated but rather the criminals failed the test and transgressed and so deserve the punishment of Allah which was already coming to them unless they sincerely repent to Allah and from their crimes.


.

152. To those who believe in Allah and His apostles and make no distinction between any of the apostles, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.

153. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

154. And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.

155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

From Quran, Chapter 4


I do not doubt brother ibn al Qayyim's sincerity or zeal for the truth but I assume his zeal for debate made him forget certain simple logic in this instance.

To those who claim that Jesus is Allah (na'oodhu bi Allah min dhaalik), I ask you to think clearly:

We know that God commands what us just so it is wrong to attempt to justify crimes and attempted crimes by saying Allah commanded us thus, since Allah never commands what is unjust.
The people of Rome were initially pagan and the leadership it appears has gone to great lengths to lay the blame upon the occupied people of jerusalem of the time, despite the fact that we know that the chief priest and his henchmen were under Roman subjugation and were tasked with keeping the people subdued under the status quo by pretending that acceptance of the corrupt status quo was what God wanted from them by misreading the what remained of the substantially edited book, we see the roman leadership's attempts at a cover-up when we come across statements such as "people didn't speak of him openly for fear of the jews", when the people who were afraid were actually "the jews", the gospel of barnabas tells us that it was actually a roman edict put up in the synagogues (a bit like the "prevent" strategy in england where people are careful of what they say for fear of the imams or moderators - when it's really the corrupt british government and it's spying trolls and goons).
The pagan roman leadership, after reluctantly accepting the faith after a huge amount of it's people had come to accept Jesus as the messiah, went on to put forward a pagan model of pure and innocent human sacrifice, including cannibalism and vampirism in effigy - in order to attempt to rationalise their attempted act which was thwarted and obscured by Allah, and it is an undeniable fact that such human sacrifice to the "gods" existed in pagan cultures - by misreading the command to fully absorb and exemplify the word of God since it is recorded that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God.
It is clear from the gospels that Jesus was demanding to know why they were trying to secretly kill him and was arguing against such a crime, and that debate was taking place within the leadership just as it had in pharaoh's court at the time of Moses.
It is therefore really a fallacy to claim that Jesus (pbum) willingly and happily offered up his soul to be murdered, and if he hadn't been saved by God (as he was) from such torture and buffeting with a crown of thorns in the flesh -anointed (maseeh)by the deceiver(dajjal)- at CRANIUM (golgotha), it would have been because of the sins of the people and not a human sacrifice as an atonement for their sins. One is compelled to ask: where is the good judgement of those who interpreted the events at the council of nicea? Since any worthy judge could easily read justice as justice and injustice as injustice.....


Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It was narrated to us via Ibn Luhay‘ah from Qays ibn al-Hajjaj from someone who told him: When (Christian) Egypt was conquered, its people came to ‘Amr ibn al-‘As (may Allah be pleased with him) and said to him: O Ameer, this Nile of ours is used to something and cannot flow unless it is done. He said: What is that? They said: On the twelfth night of this month, we take a young girl from her parents, and we placate her parents, then we dress her in jewellery and the finest garments there can be, then we throw her into this Nile.

‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) said to them: This is something that cannot happen in Islam; Islam erases that which came before it (of bad customs).

So they stayed for a while, during which the Nile did not flow at all, neither a little nor a lot, until they thought of leaving. Then ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) wrote to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), telling him about this. He wrote to him, saying: You did the right thing. I am sending you a piece of paper with my letter; throw it into the Nile.

When his letter came, ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him) took the piece of paper on which was written:

“From the slave of Allah ‘Umar, Ameer al-Mumineen, to the Nile of the people of Egypt.

To proceed: If you only flow on your own initiative, then do not flow, for we have no need of you. But if you only flow on the command of Allah, the One, the Subduer, and He is the One Who causes you to flow, then we ask Allah, may He be exalted, to make you flow.”

He threw the paper in the Nile and by Saturday morning, Allah had caused the Nile to flow (to a depth or width of) sixteen cubits in one night, and Allah put an end to this particular custom of the people of Egypt until today.

End quote from al-Bidayah wa’n-Nihayah, 7/114-115

Similar reports were also narrated by Ibn ‘Abd al-Hakam in Futooh Misr, p. 165; al-Lalkai in Sharh I‘tiqad Ahl as-Sunnah, 6/463; Ibn ‘Asakir in Tareekh Dimashq, 44/336; Abu’sh-Shaykh in al-‘Azamah, 4/1424, via Ibn Luhay‘ah.

This is a da‘eef isnad (weak chain of narration) that is not saheeh, and this report cannot be proven with such an isnad. Ibn Luhay‘ah – whose full name was ‘Abdullah ibn Luhay‘ah ibn ‘Uqbah – is da ‘eef as he used to get mixed up, and in addition to that he is mudallis (one who narrates from someone he met something he did not hear). See at-Tahdheeb, 5/327-33; Mizan al-I‘tidaal, 2/475-484

Qays ibn al-Hajjaj is sadooq (trustworthy), from the sixth level of hadeeth narrators (tabaqah) according to al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar; they are the ones who it is not proven that they met any of the Sahabah/Companions (may Allah be pleased with them). See: Taqreeb at-Tahdheeb, 1/25

Sometimes he narrated it as a mursal (the link between the Successor and the Prophet is missing) report and sometimes he narrated it from the one who told him, but the one who told him is majhool and not known.

So the report is da‘eef (weak) and is not saheeh (sound)

If this story were true, everyone would know about it and it would be well known, and it would have been widely narrated through confirmed isnads, because it is an important and significant event, the like of which should not be ignored; rather an incident less significant than this would not be overlooked by historians and narrators.

And Allah knows best.

https://islamqa.info/en/178417



Reply

MuhammadHamza1
06-19-2017, 06:22 PM
The Authors of the New Testament are anonymous
Paul apparently did not know Hebrew.
Paul did not die for the sake of Christianity as people believe.
Rather the Christians were persecuted for political reasons.And they were done so unjustly
THE IDEA OF HUMAN SACRIFICE CONTRADICTS ALL PREVIOUS REVELATIONS TO THE OLD PROPHETS AS IS EVIDENT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT.
HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS A PAGAN PRACTICE.
YOU CANNOT DEDUCE FROM MERE VISION THAT JESUS DIED ON CROSS.
JESUS SAID TO THE JEWS IN NEW TESTAMENT THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE LIKE THAT OF JONAH,THAT HE WILL REMAIN ALIVE IN HIS APPARENT GRAVE FOR THREE DAYS,ALIVE.
THIS IS IN HARMONY WITH THE QURAN,AS THE QURAN SAYS THAT JESUS WAS PUT IN CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
THERE IS DIFFERENCE OF OPINION IN THIS REGARD,BUT ALL EVIDENCES AND THE LANGUAGE IF QURAN,POINT THAT JESUS WAS PUT ON CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
HENCE THE CHRISTIANS TRUST PAUL BLINDLY.
Reply

Abz2000
06-19-2017, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
The Authors of the New Testament are anonymous
Paul apparently did not know Hebrew.
Paul did not die for the sake of Christianity as people believe.
Rather the Christians were persecuted for political reasons.And they were done so unjustly
THE IDEA OF HUMAN SACRIFICE CONTRADICTS ALL PREVIOUS REVELATIONS TO THE OLD PROPHETS AS IS EVIDENT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT.
HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS A PAGAN PRACTICE.
YOU CANNOT DEDUCE FROM MERE VISION THAT JESUS DIED ON CROSS.
JESUS SAID TO THE JEWS IN NEW TESTAMENT THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE LIKE THAT OF JONAH,THAT HE WILL REMAIN ALIVE IN HIS APPARENT GRAVE FOR THREE DAYS,ALIVE.
THIS IS IN HARMONY WITH THE QURAN,AS THE QURAN SAYS THAT JESUS WAS PUT IN CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
THERE IS DIFFERENCE OF OPINION IN THIS REGARD,BUT ALL EVIDENCES AND THE LANGUAGE IF QURAN,POINT THAT JESUS WAS PUT ON CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
HENCE THE CHRISTIANS TRUST PAUL BLINDLY.

???
Maa sualaboohu wa maa qatalooh - wa laakin shubbiha lahum.



At the time of revelation the Quran clearly says that " " was neither crucified, nor killed - but it was made to appear so to them.
However, the appearance of such - and the encrypted wording in the gospels of mathew mark luke and john clearly contain signs for the people of today.
The first time's an indication on a smaller scale......

Gospel of barnabas tells us it was judas (beginning with the letter "j"/"y" like jonah or yunus or jonny english....
....reminds me of the movie "face off") who apparently tried to sell out God and His Messenger for thirty pieces if silver like the brothers of Joseph/Yusuf :saws:
Reply

Aaqib
06-19-2017, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
One of the names of God is a groan", said Mohammed)
What are you talking about?
Reply

Abz2000
06-19-2017, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
...
In order to get a better idea on differences of opinion which existed at the time, and how some gospels of the multitude which existed made it through to the final compilation accepted by the people in positions of responsibility - please read the following very interesting scholarly article:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...of-revelation/

The Quran tells us that it was John the baptist (Yahya) :saws: who gave glad tidings of the Word from Allah, a Word which would over-rule all other man made or abrogated rules, and chapter 74 (al Muddatthir) of the Quran appears to make indications at revelation 18, so it is useful to keep in mind since the jewish leadership of the time rejected John the baptist as a prophet and his revelation would have been initially suppressed.



And Allah knows best.



Sa’d ibn Hisham reported: Ammar said, “O mother of the believers, tell me about the character of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him.”
Aisha said, “Have you not read the Quran? Verily, the character of the Messenger of Allah was the Quran.”

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 1342

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani

عَنْ سَعْدِ بْنِ هِشَامٍ قَالَ كَانَ عَامِرٌ قَالَ قُلْتُ يَا أُمَّ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ حَدِّثِينِي عَنْ خُلُقِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَتْ أَلَسْتَ تَقْرَأُ الْقُرْآنَ فَإِنَّ خُلُقَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ الْقُرْآنَ

1342 سنن أبي داود كِتَاب الصَّلَاةِ أَبْوَابُ قِيَامِ اللَّيْلِ قالت ألست تقرأ يا أيها المزمل قال قلت بلى قالت فإن أول هذه السورة نزلت فقام أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى انتفخت أقدامهم

المحدث الألباني خلاصة حكم المحدث صحيح

http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com...e-noble-quran/

See:

Communion


Hint: check out the descriptive names of jesus in the Quran - it really sets the mind to think.....
Reply

tolpuddle
06-20-2017, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
The Authors of the New Testament are anonymous
Paul apparently did not know Hebrew.
Paul did not die for the sake of Christianity as people believe.
Rather the Christians were persecuted for political reasons.And they were done so unjustly
THE IDEA OF HUMAN SACRIFICE CONTRADICTS ALL PREVIOUS REVELATIONS TO THE OLD PROPHETS AS IS EVIDENT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT.
HUMAN SACRIFICE WAS A PAGAN PRACTICE.
YOU CANNOT DEDUCE FROM MERE VISION THAT JESUS DIED ON CROSS.
JESUS SAID TO THE JEWS IN NEW TESTAMENT THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE LIKE THAT OF JONAH,THAT HE WILL REMAIN ALIVE IN HIS APPARENT GRAVE FOR THREE DAYS,ALIVE.
THIS IS IN HARMONY WITH THE QURAN,AS THE QURAN SAYS THAT JESUS WAS PUT IN CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
THERE IS DIFFERENCE OF OPINION IN THIS REGARD,BUT ALL EVIDENCES AND THE LANGUAGE IF QURAN,POINT THAT JESUS WAS PUT ON CROSS,BUT HE DID NOT DIE.
HENCE THE CHRISTIANS TRUST PAUL BLINDLY.
There is no reason to believe that the writers of the New Testament are not those whom Christian tradition has named as the authors - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter and Jude.

Paul was a Jew and well-educated - he would certainly have known Hebrew and there is good reason to believe he was beheaded as a Christian martyr, during the Emperor's Nero's persecution of the early Christians.

We believe in Christianity on the testimony of Jesus's first followers - who believed that He died (in His human nature) and rose again on the third day; this is in the Gospels, not just the writings of Paul. Some of those first followers died as martyrs (killed by Romans or fellow-Jews) for this belief.

As we believe Jesus to be more than a prophet - indeed, to be God incarnate - your statements about human sacrifice don't apply.
.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-20-2017, 10:54 AM
I have seen the phrase quoted as a saying of Mohammed at a low point in his fortunes.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-20-2017, 11:07 AM
God permits many injustices to occur; though clearly He disapproves of them.

Christianity began as a fringe-movement in the Jewish world; its members were rightly afraid of their fellow-Jews, especially the Jewish leaders - who (being the stooges through whom the Romans controlled Judaea) had immense clout with the Romans.

The failure of the Jewish people to repent of their complicity in Jesus' death, led to the destruction of their temple and homeland and their exile from that land for > 1,800 years.

The sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross, is a divine (not human) sacrifice; an offering made by God (via His human incarnation) to Himself, so as to save us from hell. God permitted this terrible injustice for a greater good - the redemption of humankind.

All this was taught by the Church, and recorded in the Christian scriptures, well before Nicaea.
Reply

MuhammadHamza1
06-20-2017, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by tolpuddle
God permits many injustices to occur; though clearly He disapproves of them.

Christianity began as a fringe-movement in the Jewish world; its members were rightly afraid of their fellow-Jews, especially the Jewish leaders - who (being the stooges through whom the Romans controlled Judaea) had immense clout with the Romans.

The failure of the Jewish people to repent of their complicity in Jesus' death, led to the destruction of their temple and homeland and their exile from that land for > 1,800 years.

The sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross, is a divine (not human) sacrifice; an offering made by God (via His human incarnation) to Himself, so as to save us from hell. God permitted this terrible injustice for a greater good - the redemption of humankind.

All this was taught by the Church, and recorded in the Christian scriptures, well before Nicaea.
https://youtu.be/6CU1EZv-pFo
https://youtu.be/YdWCdbJ_Sw4
https://youtu.be/Yvt6WLBhqGQ
https://youtu.be/dLJZaPMoZG4
https://youtu.be/XtgfS40f0w4
https://youtu.be/mPiV_2tXRVc
https://youtu.be/VlBJpObJhDU
https://youtu.be/F8AgPUrXvbs
Reply

MuhammadHamza1
06-20-2017, 02:05 PM
Use your brain.
God's religion is perfect.
Reply

tolpuddle
06-20-2017, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
Use your brain.
God's religion is perfect.
Yes, but the debate is about WHICH religion that in fact is.

As no voice has been heard from Heaven declaring which religion is the true Revelation of God, the question remains open at terrestrial level.
Reply

ahmedahmed
07-21-2017, 08:30 PM
jazakkalah kheyr.
Reply

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