Why is there Distrust between Christians, Jews and Muslims?

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

I am a Christian and I wanted to know why Muslims appear to generally distrust Christians and Jews. I therefore read the Koran and published my findings in three articles in our local newspaper. See the following:

http://researching.wordpress.com/200...alance-part-1/

I have read the Bible about 20 times and the Koran 3 times. The evidence supports Mohammed being a Prophet sent by God - which I have come to believe. I have found that this belief does not conflict with my Christian beliefs. True Muslims must therefore be my brothers and sisters.

I think that I understand where the distrust comes from, and I would welcome your comments, especially if I have inadvertently misunderstood something in the Koran.

Regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

It is much easier for people with extreme religious differences to tolerate each other, then it is for people with many similarities.

The closer 2 religions are to each other the more prone each is to believe that the other is deliberately ignoring the truth.

Those of us who worship the Monotheistic God(swt) of Abraham(PBUH) and all of the Prophets(PBUT) came from the same tree. If we have very strong belief in our faith and we see others who at one time had the same roots, teaching different, we tend to feel they are corrupting what we love.

[Walter]

Hi Woodrow:

I agree with your statements. I also believe the following would help negate much of the distrust.

1. If we would agree that there is one true God, who is the God of Abraham, rather than asserting that there is only one true brand of religion.

2. If Christians also read the Koran, and Muslims also read the Bible, and Jews also read the Koran and the New Testament.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

I am afraid I can't partake in the post in the level that you wish otherwise. because there are many variables that play a role.
I personally don't go around distrusting people of the book, or random kind folks that I meet in my every day life--and neither do any of the people I know... I think it is ridiculous actually rather absurd if the world got on the way it does in the cyber world, not to mention terribly frightening!.. most of the time I am surprised at how much hatred exists on the net ( later on I have come to attribute that to anonymity) somehow anonymity creates chaos and hate!...

but as far as politics is concerned there will unfortunately not be this (unity of man) From an Islamic perspective we call Jews and Christians (people of the book)-- it would be difficult to think that one can exist independently from the others... what I mean by that, is that I don't believe these religions to be monolithic like say Zoroastrianism-- rather they are a continuation as far as a Muslim perspective goes... where one stops the other picks up and corrects the previous where error might have occurred. From an Islamic perspective we can't deny other books or other messengers-- I really believe the bulk falls on the shoulders of the other people of the book to accept Muslims, not vice versa...
آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ {285}
[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

I have not read like verses in the bible or the torah..

I'll add these verses from the Quran--

Oneness of God, Unity of Mankind

The Quran
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256

Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84

For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48

Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13

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[Talha777]

The Holy Quran has made an appeal to the People of the Book to return to the original and simple faith in One God and to abandon all the innovations and complications that have nothing to do with worship and serving Almighty Allah:

Say: O people of the book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah. (Al-Imran 3:64)

So I sincerely believe that if our Christian and Jewish cousins would return to their own core beliefs of the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments, as well as the prophecies mentioned therein, they will find Islam is nothing but the religion that was practiced and believed in by the heroes of the Bible, like Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Daniel, Jonah, and Jesus (alaihumus salaam). Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) is simply the last in this beautiful chain of Prophets whose function was to simply warn against wickedness, and give glad tidings as well as preach virtuous behavior.

And all praise belongs to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

[Woodrow]

Hi Woodrow:

I agree with your statements. I also believe the following would help negate much of the distrust.

1. If we would agree that there is one true God, who is the God of Abraham, rather than asserting that there is only one true brand of religion.

2. If Christians also read the Koran, and Muslims also read the Bible, and Jews also read the Koran and the New Testament.

Regards,
Grenville

If we all believed what we were taught, we would be able to discuss our differences in peace. But, sadly too many people in each faith have little ability to adequately present truth, so they choose to attack.

To many people there is much personal satisfaction in being able to force another into submission and then think of it in terms they have proven the other person wrong.

It seems very few people understand that it is impossible to prove another person wrong. we can only give reason to show that what we believe is true. No matter what I present to a person of a faith different than mine, they can always come up with a logical reason why that can be an exception and not valid.

If I were to say there is a 10,000 pound purple giraffe sitting on my head. You can not prove there isn't. Further more you would not have to prove it, it would be up to me to prove that there was.

If each of us could understand that the best means of defeating false beliefs is to show the proof for true beliefs, in a kind, loving manner. The truth would spread fast and false beliefs would be replaced with truth. all in the name of love and no need to destroy each other.

[Walter]

I am afraid I can't partake in the post in the level that you wish otherwise. because there are many variables that play a role.
I personally don't go around distrusting people of the book, or random kind folks that I meet in my every day life--and neither do any of the people I know...

Hi PA:

While you may not distrust Christians and Jews, the Koran does encourage the distrust of some Christians and Jews, and with some justification as I explained in the three articles. Did you read them?

Perhaps I should have titled the post "Why does the Koran teach Muslims to distrust Christans and Jews?"

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

Well I can contrast that to many verses in the bible

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

8)Luke 12:49-53]
"I came to strike fire on the earth, and how I wish that it were already aflame!"
"Do you think that I have come to bring peace on the earth? No, not peace, but a sword."
"For I have come to create conflict between a man and his father, disagreement between a daughter and her mother, and estrangement between a daughter-in-law and her mother-in-law. A person's enemies will be one's own kin."

So how can I take that? except by way of looking at what the verses mean as a whole of whom and when -- instead of taking it out of context?
peace!

[Trumble]

I think a lot of the distrust comes from history (and current affairs, too, sadly) rather than theology. At different times and places, people following each of those religions have persecuted those following each of the others, sometimes in particularly unpleasant and bloody ways. Such things are not easily forgotten.

Apart from that, there is the general distrust of people who are somehow different. It's a 'tribal' thing, really - just that the tribes are rather larger than they used to be.

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Grenville, welcome to the forum
Always nice to see a non-muslim take interest in the Qur'an mashaAllah. And you read it even thrice mashaAllah.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking that is, how would you describe your current faith, on one hand you said: "I am a Christian" using present tense, and on the other hand you say you believe in the prophethood of Muhammed (peace be upon him) and the authenticity of the Qur'an. I geuss you're still figuring that out for yourself, which is cool, just thought I'd ask.

Anyway to answer your question. I think there are many reasons why there is distrust among followers of different religions.

*First of all, there's the religious aspect. We are warned in the Qur'an that:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah. (2:120)
I still remember the first time I read that verse, I was at that time still an atheist, and I thought to myself that this was exaggerated and offensive (astagfurAllah). Although many other verses impressed me so much that I reverted to Islam a few days later, that particular verse (among with a few others) still "troubled" me for some time. Most of my family and environment is made up out of Catholics. So I was reluctant to accept that they were as malevolent as described in that verse. But now, two years later I can only admit that the verse is definitely true. Although most of my own family and friends show respect for my religion, and claim to be ok with it, they try to seize every single opportunity to get me to follow their ways. Be this knowingly or unknowingly. Of course know, that there are other verses in the Qur'an who say different things about christians, for example there is this verse saying:

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. (5:82-83)

If we put this verse next to the previously quoted one, we suddenly create a complete different view. This verse shows that not all "Christians" are alike. and that there are among them people with good characteristics. So it's not like we should consider all people of different religions as enemy's. No, we should be open and friendly to them, and invite them to our religion. And inviting people to your religion can only be done if you acquire their trust so that they listen to you. So it's not like we should avoid them and completely distrust any interaction with them, no the only thing is we should be careful for ourselves that they don't misguide us away from the righteous path.

*Secondly, there's a psychological effect. When you have a difference of opinion with someone, one is quick to judge the other party as being deluded. So we are convinced that we are right and the other is wrong (I know that probably comes out as being arrogant, and this doesn't mean I don't respect other religions, it's just that one doesn't truly believe if they are not completely convinced that their religion is right). Now if you have that viewpoint, where "we" are right and "they" are wrong, then of course whenever "they" say something, "we" are suspicious. Is this certain? Is this something that comes from their misguided path? Is this something I can trust?

*then thirdly there is history. Unfortunately there have been many wars and incidents between Jews, Christians and Muslims. and every incident kind of made the gap between the three different religions wider to bridge. Although this last reason is illogical (just because your grandfathers fought with his grandfathers doesn't mean you can't trust him), I fear that this is the reason that motivates the people to distrust one-another the most. In that case that would also explain why sometimes the level of distrust, and the behavior that goes along with it is for certain individuals uncalled for.

I agree with your statements. I also believe the following would help negate much of the distrust.
1. If we would agree that there is one true God, who is the God of Abraham, rather than asserting that there is only one true brand of religion.

Wouldn't that be difficult for most christians (save for the unitarians) since that goes in against the trinity?

Hope this helps, looking forward to see more of your posts.
May allah subhana wa ta'ala guide us on the straight path.

PS: I didn't answer the poll because "brothers" is ambiguous.
On one hand we are all brothers and sisters as descendants of Adam and Eve (peace be upon them).
But the word brother is also used for the Islamic brother-hood, which obviously is exclusively to Muslims.

[MustafaMc]

I am sorry, but I can't make a generalized response to the poll. Posts by some Christians and Jews on this forum reflect a simlitude of brotherhood; whereas, those by others reflect strong animosity.

[Walter]

Hi Abdul Fattah:

Thank you for your welcome. I certainly do not mind answering any question. I am a Christian. I also believe that Mohammed was a Prophet of the God of Abraham. I have published my reasoning for coming to this conclusion publicly in a Christian nation and no one has refuted it.

Regarding the acceptance of the God of Abraham rather than the insistence that there is only one true brand of religion. I believe that if enough persons who have read both the Koran and the Bible could discuss contentious issues honestly, much of the trust would dissipate.

I must record my disappointment that persons who are responding to this post are doing so in a manner that clearly indicates that they did not review the articles. One lady even went so far as to accuse me of taking the verses out of context. Where did I do that?

From my reading of the Koran, I identified three principal reasons in the Koran where Muslims are warned not to trust some Christians and Jews.

1. These Christians and Jews refused to accept Mohammed as a prophet of God.
2. These Christians and Jews deliberately falsified their teachings.
3. Christians worshipped Jesus.

I dealt with each of these issues in turn, and it became clear to me that much of the warnings to distrust sections of these groups were entirely justified.

There is therefore no need to pretend that the Koran does not issue these warnings, or to justify them by claiming that the Bible has similar statements, or to be intellectually dishonest by claiming that they were taken out of context. I do hope that you would read the three short articles as requested.

Regards,
Grenville

[Hemoo]

well i couldn't hold my self from posting the following :

and please think of it as an advice not a threatening.

As mentioned in the book of Sahih Muslim That Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) said :

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) Said: By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

[Clear]

Grenville

I am, like you, a Christian, yet believe that Mohammed (pbuh) possessed some degree of revelation and was, in some degree, inspired of God to improve the people and religious practices of his people.

Still, I'm not at all sure modern Qurans and islamic religion reflects the original Quran or original Islam in much the same way modern that orthodox Judaism and Christianity do not fully and accurately represent their originals.

Can you further define the distrust you are trying to discuss. Are you placing distrust in the context of honesty? For examples:

Do you mean that one religionist feels the other religionis is mis-using, or skewing information?

Do you mean that one religionist feels the other religionist is “lying for God” in saying whatever is necessary (or making up data) to support their religious views?

Do you mean that one religionist doesn’t really believe the second religionist believes what he says claims to believes?

Clear

[Philosopher]

we are brothers in humanity, not brothers in faith.

[Clear]

Grenville

I forgot to mention that I did read the first two articles and did think they were well done. I suspect that you'll get critical reviews from both the Jewish/Christian camps and from the Muslim camp not so much for discussing their areas of religious agreements, but they will accuse you of "glossing" over what the critics see as important differences between the religions.

Like you, I see so many areas of moral agreements and a few number of very critical and important differences in doctrines.

Clear

[Walter]

Hi Clear:

Did you read the third article?

I think that the "critical and important differences" should be discussed. With all three camps claiming an exclusive relationship with the God of Abraham and proclaiming dire consequences for unbelievers, there should be an honest discussion of the differences.

I do believe that there can be unity among the camps if each of the camps would read the other camp's scriptures in a non-critical way. If they attempt a critical review of the other’s books, then we are doomed to remain in the same separate camps until the Lord returns to sort things out. We should at least display some degree of maturity in attempting to sort ourselves out before He returns.

Regards,
Grenville

[Clear]

Grenville

I did read the third article and think they all were very well done. From the "flavor" of your articles, I have to wonder if you and I aren't very similar in some ways. I believe that the current Quran and modern Islam probably are not the same as the original Oral utterances of Mohammed (pbuh) and ancient Islam (respectively) in the same way that Modern Christianity and Judaism have evolved differently from their originals.

Also, I am getting the feeling from answers to my questions here that Islam is less "structured" and less "organized" than christianity in that there are few "official" answers to my questions but Muslims seem left to traditions from their leaders rather than having greater clarification directly from the Quran.

That is to say many Islamic concepts may be interpreted so differently so as to allow a very wide range of beliefs on many subjects. The concept of Allah having no "Partners" does not negate other lesser Gods or Angels, or prophets that are "not partners" but servants (which allah has many of).

I enjoyed your articles but am still wondering about the type of "mistrust" you are trying to discuss. If "mistrust" represents mistrusted data each offers, or mistrust of hearts and motives, etc, etc. I do look forward to some clarification as I think the principles regarding mistrust are important and affect how we interact and the degree of understanding we have of one another.

Clear

[جوري]

Grenville


Also, I am getting the feeling from answers to my questions here that Islam is less "structured" and less "organized" than Christianity in that there are few "official" answers to my questions but Muslims seem left to traditions from their leaders rather than having greater clarification directly from the Quran.

Perhaps you can elaborate on how we are less structured and organized? in which ways do Muslims differ from Christianity and Judaism (organization wise)

That is to say many Islamic concepts may be interpreted so differently so as to allow a very wide range of beliefs on many subjects. The concept of Allah having no "Partners" does not negate other lesser Gods or Angels, or prophets that are "not partners" but servants (which Allah has many of).

There is only one way to interpret and that is from the Quran and the Sunna of prophet Mohammed PBUH... there is no other man with such an authority ( we seek council on difficult matters from scholars) but they are people who have received religious education-- and cannot interpret out of whim... They have to follow the Guidance of the Quran and the Sunna of the prophet PBUH when passing a ruling!..... Clearly in the Quran it states

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

We seek clarification on that which we differ from Scholars no differently than say a Jew from a Rabbi.. however, we have no body like the church for instance changing a ruling as was done by Pope Benedict XVI Changes Catholic Church's Stance on Unbaptized children being in limbo.. No man has such an authority.. it is a transgression for a man to change the Laws of G-D to pass new ones or interpret them at whim!..
-- so, I must admit I am at a loss at how you'd infer that Islam allows a (wide range of beliefs and (other lesser Gods)?-- Quran stands unchanged from the time of its revelation, and is recited 17 times a day by every practicing Muslim the same exact way as was done by the early Muslims... there is very little room for error...

Peace!

[Woodrow]

Grenville

I did read the third article and think they all were very well done. From the "flavor" of your articles, I have to wonder if you and I aren't very similar in some ways. I believe that the current Quran and modern Islam probably are not the same as the original Oral utterances of Mohammed (pbuh) and ancient Islam (respectively) in the same way that Modern Christianity and Judaism have evolved differently from their originals.

Also, I am getting the feeling from answers to my questions here that Islam is less "structured" and less "organized" than christianity in that there are few "official" answers to my questions but Muslims seem left to traditions from their leaders rather than having greater clarification directly from the Quran.

That is to say many Islamic concepts may be interpreted so differently so as to allow a very wide range of beliefs on many subjects. The concept of Allah having no "Partners" does not negate other lesser Gods or Angels, or prophets that are "not partners" but servants (which allah has many of).

I enjoyed your articles but am still wondering about the type of "mistrust" you are trying to discuss. If "mistrust" represents mistrusted data each offers, or mistrust of hearts and motives, etc, etc. I do look forward to some clarification as I think the principles regarding mistrust are important and affect how we interact and the degree of understanding we have of one another.

Clear

Muslims are much more difficult to understand than Christians. As you said:

Also, I am getting the feeling from answers to my questions here that Islam is less "structured" and less "organized" than christianity in that there are few "official" answers to my questions but Muslims seem left to traditions from their leaders rather than having greater clarification directly from the Quran.

We do not have any central earthly authority and no ordained clergy. Our beliefs are really very simple. We are created to worship Allah(swt) The Qur'an is our instruction and guide as to why and how we are to serve him.

Our other books of reference are:

The Sunnah
Ahadith
Tasfir

Roughly the Sunnah is a diary of how Muhammad followed Allah(swt)

The Ahadith are a collection of writings from people who were eye witnesses to Muhammad, they correspond very close to what Christians would call Gospels. we do not believe they are the words of Allah(swt) but are bonafide eyewitness accounts.

The Tasfir are interpretations and opinions made by Scholars.


As Muslims we place all responsibility upon ourselves for following Allah(swt) and worshiping him as He instructed. For this reason you will often hear it said it only takes a few seconds to become a Muslim but it takes a lifetime to be a Muslim. We are constantly seeking ways to serve Allah(swt) better and to do our best to truly understand what he told us in the Qur'an. If we make an error due to our lack of searching, that is our own fault and we are responsible for the consequences of it.

We can not place blame upon others by saying "somebody" told me to do that.

One of the miracles of Islam is that in spite of our lack of organization every Muslim follows the same Pillars of faith and prays in the same manner at the same times. And that is done without any formal instruction. Yes, formal instruction is available and we are encouraged to make use of it in the locations where it is available. But, even without access to formal education we are still Muslim equal to all other Muslims. We will still share the same Pillars, although we may misunderstand some things.

[Clear]

1)

Perhaps you can elaborate on how we are less structured and organized? in which ways do Muslims differ from Christianity and Judaism (organization wise)

I am not Catholic, but perhaps I can use them as an example. They possess a great deal of doctrinal minutiae and tradition regarding almost every conceivable doctrine. The nature of the spirit; when the spirit enters the body, the nature of man’s fall, etc, etc, etc. These are all described in detail in a multitude of manuals that new converts may read and study and answer a multitude of questions.

When I ask a question on the Catholic forums I get a clear and concise statement (generally) with data and scriptures as to why they believe what they believe. I can ask the question : Is this “official” and they can generally affirm this though they may give me their opinion which is slightly altered from “officialdom”.

I am not saying they are correct in their doctrines (as I said I am NOT catholic and do not particularly believe in Catholocism), but they HAVE doctrines and they are fairly clear. I have not had this degree of problem getting clears statements from religionists in other forums. It is a new experience for me and I attribute it to less doctrinal definition, less structure and perhaps less doctrinal organization. I do not, in reality, know why I had such problems getting clear doctrine here. Perhaps it was me.

2)

There is only one way to interpret and that is from the Quran and the Sunna of prophet Mohammed PBUH... there is no other man with such an authority ( we seek council on difficult matters from scholars) but they are people who have received religious education-- and cannot interpret out of whim... They have to follow the Guidance of the Quran and the Sunna of the prophet PBUH when passing a ruling!.....

And yet there are many competing Islams who label the others as having incorrect interpretations. I am not saying this to be mean. The same situation exists in Judaism and in Christianity. It is simply the nature of imperfect people to have imperfect unity of doctrines. I have Christian friends who compulsively insist that their interpretation of the Scriptures are the correct ones (for a multitude of reasons) and they simply cannot see that others have different opinions yet are trying to be as honest as anyone else.

PurestAmbrosia. I am appreciative of all that you have tried to teach me but I do not think this forum is for me. I never mean to offend and yet that seems to be all I’ve done since I started posting. I feel I should leave the forum and try to find what I am seeking elsewhere. I truly am sorry if I offended anyone. And grenville, sorry to have changed the fairly calm nature of your thread.

Clear

[جوري]

^^^ I am sorry you are not getting the responses you'd hoped.. On some level I believe the nature of your questions are too abstract? or dealing with the unknown.. you can't really apply logic to some of the questions that you ask. There isn't a random double blinded study with visceral results that would give you the answers you seek, on a spiritual level.
It is a great sin in Islam to Innovate.. whereas I understand where your coming from as per the so-called organization of the catholic church.. I believe that many of their rulings from our view would be considered heretical.

in Islam a slight comfort you can take, is whether or not people give you an adequate opinion, you can find the answers you seek in the books the Quran hasn't changed though people's interpretations might change, thus you don't really need to be a religious scholar to understand, I believe it can be understood by scholars and lay men alike. If you'd just open the book and read it!

Most people are hesitant to pass a religious opinion simply out of whim since it is considered a cardinal sin to do so.. you might have a certain doctrine in Catholicism that discusses what traits are required to turn a man into a saint or to take a child out of limbo.. but that would be considered a transgression and unbefitting to the magistrate of G-D. I think perhaps if you have read the Quran and had specific questions that aren't dealing with this level of abstraction you might get better responses. Though personally, I believe it is better to say you don't know than to make something up for new converts
I am sorry you couldn't find what you are looking for here...
peace!

[ibrarfaiz]

Listen in islam christians and jews are also muslim brothers, since they can still be accepted into heaven so are our brothers, also considering that we can marry one of them also shows that we have a bond with these religions

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Grenville, and welcome to the forum and thanks for starting this thread.

Regardless of what we choose to believe, we are all created by the same God, which makes us all brothers and sisters. Despite all our differences we should still be able get on with each other.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you daood416; and welcome to the forum

Maybe if the Bible upsets you so much you may be better off searching for what is best in the Quran.

In the spirit of praying to one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen

Eric

[daood416]

Asalamu Alaikum

Hello Eric,

I found some good stuff from the Quran for you. By the way the entire Quran is the literal speech of God and it is all good.


You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger…” [al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya’ to one another…” [al-Maa’idah 5:51].

“They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so that they (too) would compromise with you.” [al-Qalam 68:9].

“O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’aan)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…” [Aal ‘Imran 3:118-120].

“It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah’s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in a state of disbelief).” [al-Tawbah 9:113]

As you can see it is part of our religion to not take the Jews and Christians as close friends. And now we some some muslims calling them our brothers?

May Allah Guide you to the Right Path.

[daood416]

Still, I'm not at all sure modern Qurans and islamic religion reflects the original Quran or original Islam in much the same way modern that orthodox Judaism and Christianity do not fully and accurately represent their originals.




Im sure nobody understands you at all.

[Woodrow]

Still, I'm not at all sure modern Qurans and islamic religion reflects the original Quran or original Islam in much the same way modern that orthodox Judaism and Christianity do not fully and accurately represent their originals.




Im sure nobody understands you at all.

:sl:

I'm a little confused Brother. What do you mean by:

modern Qurans

[Umar001]

I have read the Bible about 20 times and the Koran 3 times. The evidence supports Mohammed being a Prophet sent by God - which I have come to believe. I have found that this belief does not conflict with my Christian beliefs. True Muslims must therefore be my brothers and sisters.

Howdy,

I am currently reading the first article, which has already raise some questions, but that will come later on, I am mainly concerned with the view above.

If Muhammad is a Messenger sent by God then how can his Message not conflict with the your Christian belief, this guessing your an average Christian.

Having completed the first article I propose some of my objections/questions;

Why are there not references which would make it easier for the audience to ascertain the level of knowledge and reliability the author has, for example when making such statements:

The Koran, while acknowledging exceptions, does not generally view most Jews and Christians positively, and Muslims are not encouraged to trust them. The Koran uses three main arguments to justify this apparent distrust.

With regards to the comment:

He further admonished them to believe in the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels, and to believe in the Messiah Jesus who was born of the Virgin Mary.

I found it obsurd that you claim that Muhammad admonished his followers to believe in the Christian GospelS, or even the Jewish Torah. Two points, never is the GospelS in plural spoke about, furthermore another grave mistake is the mention of the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels, what is the purpose behind giving those titles, Islam teaches belief in the Torah of Moses and Gospel of Jesus, writing the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels only serves to confuse the reader and mis represent the teachings of Islam.

Regards,
Eesa.

EDIT: Having now read the rest of the articles I seriously doubt your trustworthyness, I really do hope you are sincere, alot of the stuff you mentioned is totally illogical and borderline deciet.

[islamirama]

Still, I'm not at all sure modern Qurans and islamic religion reflects the original Quran or original Islam in much the same way modern that orthodox Judaism and Christianity do not fully and accurately represent their originals.




Im sure nobody understands you at all.

The one of the copies of original Quran is in turkey museum. Another one is being set up in UK i think. The religion and knowledge scholars possess today is the same knowledge passed down from teacher to student thru out the centuries to the point that the scholars can name their teacher and their teacher and their teacher all the way back to the first Muslim.

In addition to all that, Allah, Himself, promised to safeguard and protect this Book and this deen. He also sends a servant every 100 years to guide Muslims to this true deen from any deviations they fall into. So should not even utter such nonesense about Islam that could put them outside the fold of Islam.

The religion today is what it was 1400yrs ago. It is the people who are not the same as those even 200 or 100 or even 50yrs ago. So it is the people who represent Islam today are not the same as those in the past. Where as in Judaism and christianity, it is both the people and their religion that is not what it was at the time it was revealed.

Listen in islam christians and jews are also muslim brothers, since they can still be accepted into heaven so are our brothers, also considering that we can marry one of them also shows that we have a bond with these religions

Prophet (saws) said there will be 71 sects in judiaism, 72 in christianity and 73 in Islam, and only ONE will go to jannah from each faith. And we know from the first two faiths it has to be original followers for they followered their prophet as he preached, all the latters ones deviated. From Islam, it is the one that sticks to the Quran and sunnah.

with that said. Many Muslims are quick to say that you are allowed to marry from people of the book, but due to their lack of knowledge, they fail to see that a certain criteria must be fulfilled.

1. she has to be a chastie, good women, not the fornicators we have today who start at the age of 12.
2. she has to believe in ONE God, many today believe in trinity or other intermederies.
3. One is NOT allowed to marry them when you have unmarried Muslim women in the community/ummah that are needed to be wed.

And jews and christians and muslims are not brothers in Faith. Islam clearly stated the beleivers (muslims) are brothers in Faith. Allah says today i completed my favor upon you and choosen Islam as your religion. And also He says anyother religion of you will NOT be accepted.

Islam is a continuation of the previous faiths. First Judaism came to jews, then Jesus came to jews as well to soften their rigid hearts, but they rejected him and the new followers became christains. Then Islam came as the Final message to all of mankind. All the 3 faiths are Abrahamic faith, that is the bond they share. They brought Monotheism and the bringers were all descendents of Abrahim. But as older versions are no longer valid as new versions of software or anything comes out. So too is the same with religion, all previous books are nullified. we as Muslims believe in them as revealed books, but we have been given the Final version and now it's our job to convey the message.

[daood416]

Asalamu alaikum
Im sorry i was quoting someone who posted three days ago. hey did you see how they modded my post? This site is weird for sure

[daood416]

THe Christian envy us because of our Faith. They wish to compromise their religioin with us so that we may compromise.

[Philosopher]

THe Christian envy us because of our Faith. They wish to compromise their religioin with us so that we may compromise.

Why are you trying to start a flamewar?

[barney]

From a Agnostic point of veiw, I beleive that the mistrust stems from Islams early days where the Prophet's teachings were rejected by the Jews and Christians. A combination of Pagan's Jews and Christians were responsible for his flight to Medina. Later Mohammed accused them of breaking treatys and surahs were revealed to warn muslims of them.

[- Qatada -]

From a Agnostic point of veiw, I beleive that the mistrust stems from Islams early days where the Prophet's teachings were rejected by the Jews and Christians. A combination of Pagan's Jews and Christians were responsible for his flight to Medina. Later Mohammed accused them of breaking treatys and surahs were revealed to warn muslims of them.

Barney, stop making things up. Bring your proof if you're truthful. There weren't even any jews or christians in Makkah anyway, and there are many strong narrations to how the jews broke their pacts and treaties with Allaah's Messenger in Medinah.

[barney]

Well, there were a few jews in Mecca, but it wasnt a establishd community. I agree that the real mistrust occured in Medina following the Jews rejection of Mohammeds teachings. I stand corrected.

Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4363: [NOTE: words in parenthesis are from the translator - Ahmad Sidiqqi].

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira who said: We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood up and called out to them (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe. They said: Abu'l-Qasim, you have communicated (God's Message to us). The Messenger of Allah said: I want this;accept Islam and you would be safe. They said: Abu'l-Qasim, you have communicated (Allah's Message). The Messenger of Allah said: I want this... - He said to them (the same words) the third time (and on getting the same reply) he added: You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land Those of you who have any property with them should sell it, otherwise they should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (and they may have to go away leaving everything behind).

A Jew dishonoured a muslim woman in a marketplace, her husband killed the jew and the jews freinds killed the muslim.This led to a confrontation between Muhammad and the Qaynuqa and the surah was revealed.

[3.12] Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.
[3.13] Indeed there was a sign for you in the two hosts (which) met together in encounter; one party fighting in the way of Allah and the other unbelieving, whom they saw twice as.many as themselves with the sight of the eye and Allah strengthens with His aid whom He pleases; most surely there is a lesson in this for those who have sight.

Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir", vol 2, page 32:

Then occurred the ghazwah of the Apostle of Allah against the Banu Qaynuqa on Saturday, in the middle of Shawwal, after the commencement of the twentieth month from the hijrah. These people were Jews and allies of Abd Allah Ibn Ubayyi Ibn Salul. They were the bravest of Jews, and were goldsmiths. They had entered into a pact with the Prophet. When the battle of Badr took place they transgressed and showed jealousy and violated the pact and the covenant. Thereupon Allah the Blessed and the High revealed to His Prophet: "And if thou fears treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loves not the treacherous". [Sura 8:58] The Apostle of Allah had said: 'I fear the Banu Quynuqa' but after this verse it is stated that he marched against them.

This was followed by.

According to Ibn Sa'd:

They shut themselves up in their fortress, so he (Prophet) strongly besieged them, till Allah cast fear in their hearts. They submitted to the orders of the Apostle of Allah, that their property would be for the Prophet while they would take their women and children with them. Then under his orders their hands were tied behind their backs. The Apostle of Allah appointed al-Mudhir Ibn Qadamah al-Slimi, of the Banu al-Silm, the tribe of Sa'd Ibn Khaythamah to tie their hands behind their backs. Abd Allah Ibn Ubayyi had a talk with the Apostle of Allah about them and entreated him (to release them). Thereupon he (Prophet) said: Leave them, may Allah curse them and curse him who is with them! He abandoned the idea of their killing and ordered them to be banished from Madinah.

And so it all began!

[islamirama]

From a Agnostic point of veiw, I beleive that the mistrust stems from Islams early days where the Prophet's teachings were rejected by the Jews and Christians. A combination of Pagan's Jews and Christians were responsible for his flight to Medina. Later Mohammed accused them of breaking treatys and surahs were revealed to warn muslims of them.

The jews were influenential people and they didn't want their powers disappearing with these new tides as Muslims grew in numbers and becoming more powerful than the arab pagans. They made treaties with the Prophet *S* and when they thought Muslims would loose, they would side with pagans to help defeat the Muslims. They were opportunist and a danger to Muslims. They broke many treaties and therefore were banished for their treachery.

Chrisitans came later on into the picture as more and more the Islamic empire spread, christianity tried spreading against it. Real conflict is over Jurselem to which all 3 faiths hold some value.

The christians may have developed resentment and distrust and hatred and what not around this time, but the jews did it from day one. There is a hadith of a jewish women turned Muslim who tells about her father (i think) seeing the prophet and confirming with another jew that this is the Messiah mentioned in previous books, but they will despise and hate him.

And lastly, those two groups fear Muslims and Islam. They fear becuase they don't want Islam to become the dominate faith and Muslims to be the larger majority of beleivers. They want to be the number one believers and what not. They don't want to loose the power they had over the world to do as they please without being held accountable to it. So even today we see them working against Islam, this whole "war on terror" is war on Islam. A poll i posted here i think on this forum shows that over 25 countries polled and well over majority in all of them believe this war is on Islam.

[- Qatada -]

barney, stop playing games. You havn't quoted one shred of evidence to prove that there were any jews in Makkah, and regarding the act of treason the jews commited - why shouldn't they be expelled? When all they're doing is causing corruption in the land. I can assure you that other nations at that time, and even today did much worse than that when someone commited treason.


Anyway we won't go offtopic now.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

I was taking my wife on a cruise and must apologise for not responding sooner.

Clear:
The mistrust that I mentioned was not post Koran. As I sought to clarify with Purest Ambrosa earlier, the Koran does encourage the distrust of some Christians and Jews, and with some justification as I explained in the three articles that I wrote. I really should have titled the post "Why does the Koran teach Muslims to distrust Christians and Jews?" If the Forum Manager can do this to avoid further confusion, I would appreciate it.

Woodrow:
Thank you for the information on the additional Muslim texts. I will try to obtain and read them. If that additional knowledge justifies an amendment to any of the three articles, then this will be done.

Daood416:
Please note that the Koran also "speaks" positively about those Christians and Jews who follow their religion. What you have quoted applies to those who do not.

Al Habeshi:
Teenagers normally stop a debate with unfounded accusations and insults. That is not the way for mature adults. If you wish me to respond to any question, then please ask me without such erroneous and prejudicial remarks.

Islamirama:
Previous revelations are never obsolete like a software program. All revelation is valuable.

Now, revelation may be for an individual, or a specific community, or for all of mankind. To know the difference requires an unbiased read of the text and some wisdom which God will grant to all who ask Him.

There is much in the Bible that is beneficial to all of mankind but which is not found in the Koran. Similarly, there is much in the Koran that is beneficial for all of mankind that is not found in the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville

[islamirama]

Islamirama:
Previous revelations are never obsolete like a software program. All revelation is valuable.

Now, revelation may be for an individual, or a specific community, or for all of mankind. To know the difference requires an unbiased read of the text and some wisdom which God will grant to all who ask Him.

There is much in the Bible that is beneficial to all of mankind but which is not found in the Koran. Similarly, there is much in the Koran that is beneficial for all of mankind that is not found in the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville

Can you run windows 95 on any pc today? how beneficial and useful would that be?

Muslims don't deny the prevous books, in fact its is incumbant upon us to believe in their revelations to be Muslims. However, those books came for those group of people. Allah sends Messengers either for one group or more than one. Moses and Jesus came for the jews as well all other descendents of isaac. Lot came for his nation only, Adam was for all mankind since he was the Father. Mohammad came for the whole mankind since it was the final message. As for what is in those books, what agrees with the Quran is what we accept and what is contrary to quran is where believe the books were changed and went astray.

btw, if you look up on google. They are remaking the bible again in Germany, this time in a much much more simpler english so everyone can understand it. Also, they are going to take out anything that is against jews and gays, so how many times does the bible will change till it's no longer a revelation but a book of humans text only?

[barney]

You havn't quoted one shred of evidence to prove that there were any jews in Makkah, and regarding the act of treason the jews commited - why shouldn't they be expelled?
.

I had already replied that they were not an established community and that the distrust, in my opinion really began at Medina. Also that I stood corrected that the jews were a major reason for the exodus. It was mainly due to the Quaresh.
But i'll show you where I read of the meccan jews rejected Islam:

Biography of the Prophet and History of the Orthodox Caliphs, (2000) p. 51
Chapter Nine: The Muslims and the Jews
The Jews' Attitude to Islam
The Jews before Islam used to boast to the Arabs that they were a people with a [divine] book, having embraced a religion that had been sent down from God's presence. They used to say that a prophet would be sent soon and victory would be the lot of those who followed him until the Day of Judgment. When the Prophet they were talking about was sent from among the Arabs they became displeased and did not believe in his prophethood. Then the Prophet emigrated to Medina which was inhabited by the Jews of [the tribes of] the Qaynuqa', the Nadir and the Qurayzah

As to weather they should have expelled them for breaking a treaty, thats clearly going to be a Big YES! from the Muslims and a Big NO! from the jews. Lets take a look at the treaty.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/macharter.htm

The breach of treaty by the killing of the muslim who killed the jew who dishonoured (assaulted? perhaps sexually assaulted?) the muslim woman is covered by this section:
If any un-believer kills a Believer, without good cause, he shall be killed in return, unless the next of kin are satisfied (as it creates law and order problems and weakens the defence of the State). All Believers shall be against such a wrong-doer. No Believer will be allowed to shelter such a man.

So the breach of treaty seems clear. It dosn't cover belivers killing unbelivers who have signed up to it and so It is technically as far as i can see , legal within it's terms to classify it as broken by the Jews.
What should have been the punishment for the breach of treaty? Well it says that ultimate resolution was with Muhammed and Allah, so the "ousting" of the Jews would also be technically legal.

[- Qatada -]

Thanks for clarifying your position. The other issue is irrelevant anyway since the laws within a nation are set for a reason.


Regards.

[Umar001]

Al Habeshi:
Teenagers normally stop a debate with unfounded accusations and insults. That is not the way for mature adults. If you wish me to respond to any question, then please ask me without such erroneous and prejudicial remarks.

Well I didnt conclude anything I just put forth that I doubt the intentions behind it.

But to further the discussion I will not make any sort of comments, just ask. :)

I have yet to come across anywhere where the Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'admonished' his companions to believe in the 'Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels'

Could you please provide the source to aid me in my learning.

Also out of curiosity, if Muhammad is a messenger then how does on reconcile his message with the belief held by most Christians?

Eesa.

[barney]

I'll just add that, based on modern (western) standards, rape wouldnt be sufficiant cause to commit murder, and a single murder wouldnt cause a whole tribe to be evicted.If it was then Barnsley West Yorkshire would be throwing out its various tribes on a weekly basis.

After studying the events in Medina, I think that the reprisal murder was just a catalyst. The Rejection of Mohammeds prophethood by the jews I see as the major cause for the seige and subsequent conflict.

[Kashnowe]

i think there is mistrust between all three religions in a general sense. i believe it comes from ignorance and fear.

the same is how people in a a big corportation (world) don't trust eachother. each person is trying to keep their job security (land, laws,culture), hoping the promotion (land, money, opportunity) won't go to their neighbor in the next cubicle or worst of all get fired (killed) because in t he end people fear failure. its part of survival. ok that makes sense to me i'm hopingit makes sense to you all :D

another example i can think of is slavery in america. african americans still distrust white americans. and white americans in turn distrust afrian americans. all of this is from ignorance and fear. its from generations ago when slavery was legal. and now it is not. so blacks distrust the whites because the fact that white people enslaved, beat, raped, lynched innocent blacks. and that does horrible things to families that causes emotions, ideas, and feelings of hate to be passed on to future generations (as all peolple learn from their elders examples). and then white people now distrust the blacks because they see them as a threat for physical safety,jobs, education (affirmative action), land, shoplifting etc. and most blacks and whites in america are christians!!! of course this is a very generalized statement and there are exceptions everywhere. but the effects of slavery are still felt every day in america.
it causes unconsious distrust most of the time. a white woman will clutch her purse when she walks by a black man on the street and not even realize she is doing so. now in american the distrust is with the hispanics and whites and blacks.

it takes g enerations for these feelings to go away and the same is i think for jews, christians, and muslims. we all need to just live as examples for others.

and sadly most of the distrust is caused by politicians.

i remember seeing a special on tv a few months ago, a white american reporter (diane sawyer) went to iran where there was a protest in the streets and everyone was chanting "death to america" and the reporter stopped to talk to one of the women shouting and said "i am american do you want me to die?" and the woman said "no, no, i love you" and the reporter said "why then are you chanting death to america" and the women said she meant death to the policies and govt of america. but she loved all american people. so.................i thought that was just lovely.

most people are just ignorant and afraid like a scared dog with its tail between its legs. ashamed.

[- Qatada -]

I'll just add that, based on modern (western) standards, rape wouldnt be sufficiant cause to commit murder, and a single murder wouldnt cause a whole tribe to be evicted.If it was then Barnsley West Yorkshire would be throwing out its various tribes on a weekly basis.

After studying the events in Medina, I think that the reprisal murder was just a catalyst. The Rejection of Mohammeds prophethood by the jews I see as the major cause for the seige and subsequent conflict.

The issues been heavily discussed within another thread, and i've clarified my position on these 'morals' already:

That exact same point can be used against people who change their morals continuouslly since one thing may be classed as totally evil at one time and later on be altered to be encouraged and liked. Therefore the people don't have a common ground to stand on together, and due to that - there is no concept of morals since everyone is always in a state of confusion to what is good or not.

This then makes the people slaves to society because they have to follow the norms of that society [which is controlled by the people higher in social class], because if they don't - they'll be looked at as a stranger and therefore the person has to go along with the false 'edited' morals in order to fit in or be accepted.

http://www.islamicboard.com/730595-post126.html


If you want to discuss the Jews of Medina more, please do so in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ws-medina.html



Regards.

[ibrarfaiz]

Nice points made thanks a good explanation

[Walter]

Hi Islamirama:

Both Christian and Muslim communities have their texts (Bible and Koran) and their traditions/opinions. If a specific tradition or opinion conflicts with the text, then we should agree to accept the text.

You have noted that Mohammed came for all of mankind and that previous revelations are obsolete. I believe that these are opinions which conflict with the text provided below.

3:164 - Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

Is the Koran not referring principally to Arabs? The Koran also appears to clarify that no one messenger is more important than the others. They are all messengers.

4:150-152 - Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The issue with previous revelations is addressed in my reply to Al Habeshi.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Al Habeshi:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Now the typical response is that the Books are no longer available. That is an opinion which I dealt with in the second article. The Books are available.

http://researching.wordpress.com/200...alance-part-2/

As to your question about “if Muhammad is a messenger then how does one reconcile his message with the belief held by most Christians?”.

As I explained to Islamirama, there are traditions and opinions and then there is the text. Please read the first article where I show that his principal message is similar to Jesus’.

Regards,
Grenville

[- Qatada -]

Yes, but if you noticed - we believe in the original Gospel revealed to Jesus son of Mary, and we believe in the Torah revealed to Moses - yet even the christians themselves can't agree on a common copy together. Since there is no original remaining right? :)


So we believe that there was an original, even though it doesn't exist no more. The Qur'an is the revelation which God/Allaah sent to His final servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

It confirmed what came before, and it is the Criterion between truth and falsehood. It has been preserved for us, and it will remain that way till the Day of Ressurection. A book for mankind, a light, a guidance and a Mercy from Allaah the Most High. Whosoever shuns it, will be disgraced by Allaah - yet he who follows it will draw closer to Allaah - his Creator and Sustainer, he will be successful in this life and the one to come. May Allaah make us of them. ameen.

[YEh]

Yes, but if you noticed - we believe in the original Gospel revealed to Jesus son of Mary, and we believe in the Torah revealed to Moses - yet even the christians themselves can't agree on a common copy together. Since there is no original remaining right? :)

So we believe that there was an original, even though it doesn't exist no more. The Qur'an is the revelation which God/Allaah sent to His final servant and Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

It confirmed what came before, and it is the Criterion between truth and falsehood. It has been preserved for us, and it will remain that way till the Day of Ressurection. A book for mankind, a light, a guidance and a Mercy from Allaah the Most High. Whosoever shuns it, will be disgraced by Allaah - yet he who follows it will draw closer to Allaah - his Creator and Sustainer, he will be successful in this life and the one to come. May Allaah make us of them. ameen.

There is no original copies because it's 2000 years old and written on papyrus. There are only copies.
Likewise the Quran has no originals only copies. The paper just doesn't last that long.

Question: If there is no original copy of the Gospel (Ingeel) or the Torah, what was the point of Jesus preaching if it wasn't preserved for even 100 years. i.e. And according to Muslims, who say that Paul deviated from the teachings of Jesus (introduced the trinity) ?
We have fragments of some early copies maybe original copies from 150-200AD.

I would like to comment about why is their distrust between the people of the book and Muslims ?

I believe the teachings of the Quran contradict not only a vast number of hadiths, but itself too (explained away as abbrogation) and just plain contradiction.
Some hadiths that do contradict the Quran are followed by some people, unaware of their status that are very dangerous, teaching others to kill for blasphemy, or for insulting a muslim or Muhammad, etc..

The stories or more accurately, summaries are lacking in moral significance for the reader. It mainly teaches about the existance of God, law and how Muhammad dealt with his persercuters (unbelievers).
Very, very harshly in some cases. Compared to the detailed moral stories in the Bible, the Quran and hadith are very obviously not divine. The Quran is the equivalent of a gnostic sayings gospel.

It brings back the concept of judging others from the law it teaches.
When Jesus main teaching was "Do not judge others, or you will be judged".
This is concerning capital punishment, which Muhammad was all for.

Judging others, puts love aside and teaches hate and hypocrisy. Since we all sin. We all have our failings. How is one failing better than another failing to God ? It's not, all sin is wrong.
It's men who see some crimes as worse than others, since some cause more damage to us than others.
So I see Muhammad's teachings as very human. Not divine.
So a religion that is based on following the actions of a man is not a very good example to others.
The example of this man Muhammad as outlined in the Quran and hadith is not a rosy picture. Sure most of the Quran has nice teachings but there are many teachings which are very wrong, which extremists obviously follow that part of the Quran and hadith.

There is distrust because Muslims follow an example that teaches very human teachings which lead to violence and disrespecting the country they are a citizen of (bad mouthing, Sharia is better, Muslims are better than Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc).

Note:
Not meant to be an attack on Muhammad or Muslims. Just my opinion of reasons why Jews and Christians don't trust Muslims.
We trust individual people (Muslims, Chrsitians, whoever), but I believe the agenda of Islam (Umah) to turn everybody into Muslims (all countries to follow Sharia) is absolutely wrong.
Also the idea that following Sharia will lead to less crime. Which I don't think can be possible without the expense of basic human rights and freedoms.
Is worrying. +o(

YEh

[Umar001]

Both Christian and Muslim communities have their texts (Bible and Koran) and their traditions/opinions. If a specific tradition or opinion conflicts with the text, then we should agree to accept the text.

I believe you have made a mistake in your foundations which entails that the rest is likely to be mistaken.

You stated that the texts are respectively, Bible and Qu'ran for Christians and Muslims and then tranditions/opinions. Rather in Islam there is the sayings of Muhammad, which explain the Qu'ran and expound upon the Laws of Allah.

You have noted that Mohammed came for all of mankind and that previous revelations are obsolete. I believe that these are opinions which conflict with the text provided below.

It's not an opinion, rather, it is established in the Qu'ran:

And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamīn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (Al-Anbiya 21:107)

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islām, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85)

So the verse you quoted have to be seen in the light of the Quran and Sunnah not just taken alone.

Is the Koran not referring principally to Arabs? The Koran also appears to clarify that no one messenger is more important than the others. They are all messengers.

Yes, but this does not mean that their missions are exactly the same, for example, Jesus was born of a virgin, Moses was not, Muhammad was illiterate and others might have not been, and so forth, we cannot reject messengers, for they are from God, but this does not mean their message was for us. Which is what the verse you quote says:

4:150-152 - Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Accepting some and rejecting others is not acceptable.

Al Habeshi:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

But believe in those scriptures in what way? This is where you understand this by what the rest of the Quran and the Teachings of Muhammad understanding of his companions say.

I asked in the first reply;

I have yet to come across anywhere where the Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'admonished' his companions to believe in the 'Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels'

So please, show me where Muslims are told to believe in the GospelS? What you have quoted are instance where Muslims are told to believe in the Gospel of Jesus, the Evangel of Jesus, not the GospelS as you claim.

With regards to:

Now the typical response is that the Books are no longer available. That is an opinion which I dealt with in the second article. The Books are available.

Please simplify for me how you came to the conclusion that the books are available. I read the article and I have yet to understand how that is derived, all I understood is that Jesus spoke about not blindly doing rituals.

Regards,

Eesa. :)

[YEh]

More reasons of distrust.

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.
Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !
Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin ! Many find it unacceptable for a person to believe in polygamy and still consider themselves pious. So we wonder about their mental state to accept such a teaching as divine. :? :enough!:

YEh

[Umar001]

More reasons of distrust.

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.

Consider themselves more pious? Lol.

Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Just because someone doesnt talk to a girl does not mean that when a girl talks to him he'll rape her. Jee.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !

Marmite is disgusting too, and so is people who are not homosexual, and so are anti nudist, eww.

Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin !

A sin according to? Erm, ok, I think Satan thinks its a sin to worship God alone. ;)

[YEh]

Distrust:

Not to mention the evil crimes that Muslims commit throughout the world on a daily basis.
- murders in the Sudan, ethnic cleansing.
- Murders of the coaltion of the willing in Iraq. Which is insane, since they had Saddam for a leader.
- Taliban fruit loops.
- Spitting on people because they are not Muslim in Egypt, England, etc..
This is just unheard of by a religion other than Islam.
- 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London bombings. Organised mass killings of innocent people.
Just the weirdest trend amongst religions. No other religions are this violent today.
- Egypt is persecuting non-muslims in schools on the streets, which are filled with garbage (God's will apparently :rollseyes).
- Indonesia has some of the Sharia laws in effect, and does nothing to curb crime, many people walk around stealing from stalls and shops with one hand.

The cutting the hand off for stealing law is evil and wrong. How is someone supposed to work after his hand is cut off ?

YEh

[skhalid]

No cause the differences within our religions cause a lot of arguments or debates if thats the appropriate word to use!
We agree on some things but major aspects let us down on having a strong relationship.
Anyways, the main point is that it is possible to get on ...I have friends of all types of religions and we have no problems whatsoever, we talk about religious stuff but never get into arguments...at the end of the day everyone has their religion and therefore follows them and have particular views about them...sensibly speaking that is....I think more can be done if both sides are willing...jazakallah

[- Qatada -]

There is no original copies because it's 2000 years old and written on papyrus. There are only copies.
Likewise the Quran has no originals only copies. The paper just doesn't last that long.

Uthmani Qur'an* -
- compiled by the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)

[- In the Museum of Turkey today -]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html

Question: If there is no original copy of the Gospel (Ingeel) or the Torah, what was the point of Jesus preaching if it wasn't preserved for even 100 years.

Jesus son of Mary came to his people, to call them back to the true way of worshipping God Alone and to shun all false deities, that was the message of all the prophets of God.

i.e. And according to Muslims, who say that Paul deviated from the teachings of Jesus (introduced the trinity) ?

Maybe because Jesus son of Mary never called people to worship him? :?

We have fragments of some early copies maybe original copies from 150-200AD.

With a whole solid link of narration linked back to the time of Jesus son of Mary?

I would like to comment about why is their distrust between the people of the book and Muslims ?

I believe the teachings of the Quran contradict not only a vast number of hadiths, but itself too (explained away as abbrogation) and just plain contradiction.

That's ignorance on your part, since we know that the Qur'an and Sunnah are equal in matters of law in Islaam. So even if an authentic narration was to be a source of law, even if it wasn't from Qur'an - we still take it as a source of law since Allaah says in the Qur'an:

It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

[Qur'an 33: 36]


By the Star when it goes down,-
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
He was taught by one Mighty in Power,

[Qur'an Al-Najm 53: 1-5]

Some hadiths that do contradict the Quran are followed by some people, unaware of their status that are very dangerous, teaching others to kill for blasphemy, or for insulting a muslim or Muhammad, etc..

Let's see the christian stance to blasphemy:

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

So if someone blasphemes in christianity and judaism - they get stoned to death!

The stories or more accurately, summaries are lacking in moral significance for the reader. It mainly teaches about the existance of God, law and how Muhammad dealt with his persercuters (unbelievers).


Very, very harshly in some cases. Compared to the detailed moral stories in the Bible, the Quran and hadith are very obviously not divine. The Quran is the equivalent of a gnostic sayings gospel.

You really think so? Seriosly, i can easily bring you a whole list of whats mentioned in the OT.

God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought the muslims, yet he inclined to peace many times, an example is when he opened Makkah and freed and forgave his persecutors and those who tortured the muslims severely throughout their lives, yet the custom at that time was to take everyone as a slave.

It brings back the concept of judging others from the law it teaches.
When Jesus main teaching was "Do not judge others, or you will be judged".
This is concerning capital punishment, which Muhammad was all for.

The Prophet said:'Do not search for (the faults of others), for if anyone searches for (others) faults, God will search for his.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)


Capital punishment is in the OT, and since Jesus son of Mary never came to abrogate that law - it means that he was for it aswell. :)

Judging others, puts love aside and teaches hate and hypocrisy. Since we all sin. We all have our failings. How is one failing better than another failing to God ? It's not, all sin is wrong.

It's men who see some crimes as worse than others, since some cause more damage to us than others.

Yeah, so if some guy comes to you and kills all your women and children, along with all your brethren in faith - you're just going to turn the other cheek right?

In Islaam - we have justice, so we can actually defend ourselves and fight back, yet Allaah does not love the transgressors.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. [Qur'an 2:190]

So I see Muhammad's teachings as very human. Not divine.

Religion is infact for humankind. :)

So a religion that is based on following the actions of a man is not a very good example to others.

So religion depends upon faith totally? No concept of being responsible for ones own actions?

The example of this man Muhammad as outlined in the Quran and hadith is not a rosy picture. Sure most of the Quran has nice teachings but there are many teachings which are very wrong, which extremists obviously follow that part of the Quran and hadith.

Maybe its because you visit anti-islamic sites alot? :) How about actually reading the biography of Muhammad (peace be upon him) to really see what his life was about?

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...mmad-saws.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-...uhammad-s.html

There is distrust because Muslims follow an example that teaches very human teachings which lead to violence and disrespecting the country they are a citizen of (bad mouthing, Sharia is better, Muslims are better than Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc).

Some of the Companions once asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) to pray to Allah to invoke His curse upon the pagans. He replied: “I was not sent to curse people but as a blessing. (Sahîh Muslim)

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

[Qur'an 49:13]


Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.

Character, Etiquettes and Morals

1. The Prophet said: 'Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character (Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik)
2. The Prophet said: 'There is nothing which is heavier upon the balance than the good character.' (Musnad Ahmad)
3. The Prophet said: 'Righteousness is good character, and sin is what makes you uncomfortable inside and you would not like other people to find out about.' (Sahîh Muslim)
4. The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
5. The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)
6. The Prophet said: 'Indeed Allah is gentle and loves gentleness, and gives due to gentleness that which He does not give to harshness.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
7. The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
8. The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
9. The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

more:
http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user49.html

Note:
Not meant to be an attack on Muhammad or Muslims. Just my opinion of reasons why Jews and Christians don't trust Muslims.
We trust individual people (Muslims, Chrsitians, whoever), but I believe the agenda of Islam (Umah) to turn everybody into Muslims (all countries to follow Sharia) is absolutely wrong.
Also the idea that following Sharia will lead to less crime. Which I don't think can be possible without the expense of basic human rights and freedoms.
Is worrying. +o(

YEh

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]

[- Qatada -]

Distrust:

Not to mention the evil crimes that Muslims commit throughout the world on a daily basis.

Shall i give you a whole list of crimes [the Crusades] that are performed 'in the name of Christ?' :? I thought Jesus son of Mary brought a peaceful message?

Do you see where i'm getting at? Just because some people claim to follow the religion - doesn't mean that the acts they do are part of the religion.

- murders in the Sudan, ethnic cleansing.

And where is the proof that this is encouraged in Islaam?

The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)

- Murders of the coaltion of the willing in Iraq. Which is insane, since they had Saddam for a leader.

Guess who placed him there in the first place? It was the US.

- Taliban fruit loops.

What's that supposed to mean? :?

- Spitting on people because they are not Muslim in Egypt, England, etc..
This is just unheard of by a religion other than Islam.

erm.. unheard from Islaam? Quote me from Islamic texts where it says that?


The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

- 9/11, Bali, Madrid, London bombings. Organised mass killings of innocent people.

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]

The Messenger of Allaah said:

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]


Remember that all this stuff is simply in the context of fighting ^ outside of the war-zone none of that is permissible anyway - unless there is a certain law which calls for capital punishment. And even then - not any tom, bob and harry can apply it - it's the Islamic judge.

Just the weirdest trend amongst religions. No other religions are this violent today.

That doesn't mean that what they show on the media is true. Like i've said before, christianities had such a bad history of violence that they feel ashamed when the Crusades are mentioned. Does that mean that christianity is really evil since its people did evil crimes in history, and still does today?

- Egypt is persecuting non-muslims in schools on the streets, which are filled with garbage (God's will apparently :rollseyes).

Again, bring proof from Islamic religious texts to show that its encouraged to kill innocent people?:)

- Indonesia has some of the Sharia laws in effect, and does nothing to curb crime, many people walk around stealing from stalls and shops with one hand.

Is that Islaam's fault or is that the Indonesian peoples fault? :?

The cutting the hand off for stealing law is evil and wrong. How is someone supposed to work after his hand is cut off ?

YEh

Why should a person steal in the first place?

[YEh]

Also the law of Islam tends to alienate Muslims from people of different beliefs.

Since they can't eat or drink what other people do. This is considered rude in many, many countries.

Muslims dress ultra conservatively and consider themselves more pious because of the clothes or beard they wear.
Which leads to a feeling of distrust between Mulsims and others.
Why do you feel you have to cover your whole body, don't you trust us ? Is a very common feeling when someone encounters this type of dress.

Consider themselves more pious? Lol.

Many people do, even my fairly liberal muslim friend.
The point was that if you cover yourself up. You don't trust us.

So we don't trust you.

A woman or man can't be around someone of the opposite sex by themselves.
This could lead to no self control of the person. Since they haven't been exposed to that kind of situation before.

Just because someone doesnt talk to a girl does not mean that when a girl talks to him he'll rape her. Jee.

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners. And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

Muhammad practiced polygamy. This is just disgusting !
Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin ! Many find it unacceptable for a person to believe in polygamy and still consider themselves pious. So we wonder about their mental state to accept such a teaching as divine.

Marmite is disgusting too, and so is people who are not homosexual, and so are anti nudist, eww.

I don't think you understand how serious this is. Muhammad taught people to sin by practicising polygamy. It's just so deviant !!

Also why is it that a man can have 2 wives and a woman can't have 2 husbands ?

A sin according to? Erm, ok, I think Satan thinks its a sin to worship God alone. ;)

You bring up a good point, how do you identify sin ?

With Muslims I believe it's anything in the Quran that Muhammad did.
Which is just the wrong way to look at it. How do you know then that what you have (in Islam) is a divine book.
Because it says so ? NO, that's ridiculous. Why then ?
Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.
It teaches to give to anyone that asks and more.
It teaches to love everyone even your enemies.
To return all evil with something good.
To never hurt anyone for any reason.
Leave all judgement on the earth for God.
Do to others as you would have them do unto you.
etc..

YEh

p.s. so you have just proven your inability to be able to recognise sin. I worry about what your learning from Islam :omg:

[- Qatada -]

Many people do, even my fairly liberal muslim friend.
The point was that if you cover yourself up. You don't trust us.

So we don't trust you.

Oh so if you go around naked, its a sign of trust right?

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners. And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

Does that mean rape is permissible in Islaam?


Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). [Qur'an 17:32]

I don't think you understand how serious this is. Muhammad taught people to sin by practicising polygamy. It's just so deviant !!

Prove to me where it says in the bible that polygamy is forbidden? If it doesn't - then that means its permitted.

Also why is it that a man can have 2 wives and a woman can't have 2 husbands ?

Ask any woman and she would prefer one man over loads, thats their nature.

You bring up a good point, how do you identify sin ?

God revealed the final revelation to His Messenger (peace be upon him) - it is the Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc.

With Muslims I believe it's anything in the Quran that Muhammad did.
Which is just the wrong way to look at it. How do you know then that what you have (in Islam) is a divine book.

I would just like to quote what Ansar said in this post:

I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:

-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:

-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.

This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.

Because it says so ? NO, that's ridiculous. Why then ?
Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2


32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us




Is that really righteous? I dont like quoting to cause enmity, but i feel that you're doing something similar. So i just want to show to you that your scripture isn't that righteous afterall.

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.

Proof please?

It teaches to give to anyone that asks and more.

The Prophet said: 'Charity (sadaqah) is due upon every joint of a person on every day that the sun rises. Administering justice between two people is an act of charity; and to help a man concerning his riding beast by helping him on to it or lifting his luggage on to it is an act of charity; a good word is charity; and every step which you take to prayer is charity; and removing that which is harmful from the road is charity.'(Sahîh Bukhârî)

To return all evil with something good.

Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! [Qur'an 41: 34]

To never hurt anyone for any reason.

Then how about the Crusades?

Leave all judgement on the earth for God.

So theres no courts in christianity and no law whatsoever?

Do to others as you would have them do unto you.
etc..

The Prophet said: 'None of you is truly a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.'(Sahîh Muslim)

YEh

p.s. so you have just proven your inability to be able to recognise sin. I worry about what your learning from Islam :omg:

We actually have a true Authentic Criterion to distinguish between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc. [the Qur'an and the example of God's Messenger, Muhammad - peace be upon him.], do you?

[Malaikah]

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners.

Prove this. Source please. I find this extremely hard to believe, especially considering that the focus tends to be on Lebanese youths in Sydney. Maybe it is because the media never shut up about it, but people tend to get the impression that rape is a big issue for that community, even though the officials had issued a statement that the community not over-represented with respect to criminal offences.

And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

And some of the worst rape crimes were done by non-Muslim Australians. Some of them rather recent too.

Nobody can believe a man who considers himself an example to mankind would commit such a sin ! Many find it unacceptable for a person to believe in polygamy and still consider themselves pious. So we wonder about their mental state to accept such a teaching as divine.

I might be confused but I thought you were a Christian? :? If so, how on earth could you possible say that considering polygamy was permitted in the OT and was practised by many of the prophets?!:rollseyes

If you are not Christian then ignore the above.

You just basically made a judgement against three of the worlds major religions, while also exposing your ignorance of who desperately important polygamy has been historically, not only for Muslims but people of various cultures in order for women to be taken care of and protected.

[Umar001]

Many people do, even my fairly liberal muslim friend.
The point was that if you cover yourself up. You don't trust us.

So we don't trust you.

I cover in front of my mom, does that mean I dont trust her? Lol, I find it revolting to think that you think that cos I cover infront of my mom it means that I think she might find me attractive

The stats in Australia at least put down that about 65% of all rapes are by middle easterners. And some of the worst rapes that have happened in Australia were done by Muslims.

Could be something to do with culture views on women? Ever thought of that?

I don't think you understand how serious this is. Muhammad taught people to sin by practicising polygamy. It's just so deviant !!

Also why is it that a man can have 2 wives and a woman can't have 2 husbands ?

Sin according to...? Anyone can claim anything is sin.

You bring up a good point, how do you identify sin ?

From my understanding, in a sentence, willfully and knowingly disobeying God.

With Muslims I believe it's anything in the Quran that Muhammad did.
Which is just the wrong way to look at it. How do you know then that what you have (in Islam) is a divine book.
Because it says so ? NO, that's ridiculous. Why then ?
Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

This is even more ridicoulous, you pick teachings which you believe are righteous, let me ask you, what makes you think they are righteous?

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.

Actually that's your preconcieved ideas, if you approach the bible with an open mind and not a preconcieved notion then you'd find having more than one wife is not prohibited.

It teaches to love everyone even your enemies.

You chosing to forget the old testament? You might not have to follow it but God was taeching people to have no mercy back in there!

To return all evil with something good.

Again turn back to what God said in the OT

[QUOTE=YEh;732883]
To never hurt anyone for any reason.[/QUOTE

Turn to the OT plesae.

Leave all judgement on the earth for God.

Turn back to the OT, furthermore, leave All judgemt to God? No more prisons ;)

p.s. so you have just proven your inability to be able to recognise sin. I worry about what your learning from Islam :omg:

What I tried to make you understand is that different people view different things to be sin, for example, some Christians view not accepting Jesus as personal saviour as sin, whilst muslims view doing that as sin, both cannot be sin.

So what I was showing you is that, you might think something is sin but in reality it might not be.


What is amazing is that you use what you believe to be good as a station for setting your beliefs, the Bible is true because it teaches Good, but how do we know what good is, for example, some tribes believe cannibalism is good, would they then have the right to say 'The bible is not God's word because it teaches no cannibalism' or would gays now have the right to say 'The Bible comes from a homophobic person thus it cannot be God's word because it doesnt teachgood'

Lol what we think is good is relative to where we come from, a person might think homosexuality is ok, but 100 years backthey would have thought it was bad, by your logic, 100 years back then people would be justified in accepting the Bible, but now days since th Bible talks about gays in a bad way then people have a right to reject it since its not righteous.

[Malaikah]

Christians don't believe they are following a divine book just because it claims it is. It's because it's teachings are true and righteous.

It doesn't teach polygamy it teaches monogamy.
It teaches to give to anyone that asks and more.
It teaches to love everyone even your enemies.
To return all evil with something good.
To never hurt anyone for any reason.
Leave all judgement on the earth for God.
Do to others as you would have them do unto you.
etc..

You must be kidding!!!! PLEASE tell me you aren't a Christian or else I am extremely worried about how ignorant you are of your own religion!

So how many wives did Solomon and David have again? :? One thing I can tell you for certain is that it wasn't ONE each!

[YEh]

[QUOTE=Fi_Sabilillah;732892]Oh so if you go around naked, its a sign of trust right?

Sorry ???? :? Who walks around naked ? Are you implying that the way we dress is pretty much naked to you ?

If it is then it's no wonder people distrust Muslims. :laugh: :raging:


Does that mean rape is permissible in Islaam?


Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). [Qur'an 17:32]

I know it's not permissable I have read the Quaran with tafsirs and hadith. And his biography. It's that these people can even think about such a crime, knowing how wrong it is. Islam doesn't seem to change many hearts. Since most do not follow the religion.
That's the point i'm making.


Prove to me where it says in the bible that polygamy is forbidden? If it doesn't - then that means its permitted.

Well the best example is Adam and Eve. God didn't create 2 eve's for Adam.
One man for every woman. Anything more is perverted and carnal.

Exodus 20:

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

In Exodus it states you shall not commit adultery, which means do not sleep with anyone else but your wife. And then it goes on to say that even wanting someone else is also wrong.

Jesus also quotes what it says here to confirm it. But also adds some other aspect to the teaching.

Matthew 5
New International Version (NIV)

Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Ask any woman and she would prefer one man over loads, thats their nature.

This is just a stupid thing to say. It depends on the woman. Also because it's our nature does that make it right ?

God revealed the final revelation to His Messenger (peace be upon him) - it is the Criterion to judge between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc.

No, that's just a claim. Like the 15 minute abs commercials that claim that just by using their machine for 15 minutes a day you will have rock hard abs.
But if you look up any health book it says that you may have rock hard abs, but without some cardio work you will not be seeing your abs. Because they will be under a layer of fat. So you won't look like their fitness models and personal trainers by just using their equipment. That's just false.


I would just like to quote what Ansar said in this post:



Deuteronomy
Chapter 2


32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

This was the time of the law, where it was eye for an eye. Any sin done to God and you are going to pay the price of your sin (the wages of sin is death).Now it is the time of grace.
You quote the OT and think Christians still follow this. I suggest you read the NT first before commenting.
Since we believe the law was completed (fulfilled) by Jesus so if we follow him we have obeyed the law as well as God.


Is that really righteous? I dont like quoting to cause enmity, but i feel that you're doing something similar. So i just want to show to you that your scripture isn't that righteous afterall.


In fact you have proved it. Since God is a God of justice. People who turn against his people, God will protect them, and execute judgement upon them. That is the law.
This is not a command for anyone to follow though, this is an act of God that he was overseeing.


The Prophet said: 'Charity (sadaqah) is due upon every joint of a person on every day that the sun rises. Administering justice between two people is an act of charity; and to help a man concerning his riding beast by helping him on to it or lifting his luggage on to it is an act of charity; a good word is charity; and every step which you take to prayer is charity; and removing that which is harmful from the road is charity.'(Sahîh Bukhârî)




It teaches to love everyone even your enemies.

Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate! [Qur'an 41: 34]

What is evil, what is good ?

Then how about the Crusades?

Well they were done by catholics about 900 years ago so..... it's not the same thing.
We have all this knowledge we have gathered which teaches from experience that, these acts are just so devilish and just wrong.

So theres no courts in christianity and no law whatsoever?

There is no law in Christianity, Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We have to make laws according to our hearts. That is in the best interests of everyone. Not just stick to laws that are 1400 years old. Laws change over time. Technology sure changes it.
And studies into pyschology change laws. You can't obey 2 laws they would just contradict. One religious the other secular.
We obey the laws of the country. The Jews were given the law. You can't give the world law. It makes no sense !

The Prophet said: 'None of you is truly a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.'(Sahîh Muslim)

That is not the same thing. Jesus said "DO UNTO...." Not love for your brother.
In any case Muhammad did not add anything to which could be considered new or inspirational.

We actually have a true Authentic Criterion to distinguish between truth and falsehood, good and evil etc. [the Qur'an and the example of God's Messenger, Muhammad - peace be upon him.], do you?

Like I said this is not the way to determine what is right and wrong and is a very dangerous way of determining if something is good or if something is not good.
By someone's opinion (Muhammad's) you have to test to see if what he says leads to good outcomes or not. Not just take his word for it. That is stupid and a little crazy to me.

YEh

[poga]

Hi Everyone:

I am a Christian and I wanted to know why Muslims appear to generally distrust Christians and Jews. I therefore read the Koran and published my findings in three articles in our local newspaper. See the following:

http://researching.wordpress.com/200...alance-part-1/

I have read the Bible about 20 times and the Koran 3 times. The evidence supports Mohammed being a Prophet sent by God - which I have come to believe. I have found that this belief does not conflict with my Christian beliefs. True Muslims must therefore be my brothers and sisters.

I think that I understand where the distrust comes from, and I would welcome your comments, especially if I have inadvertently misunderstood something in the Koran.

Regards,
Grenville

:sl: as muslim we believe in al quran and muhammad sallael la hu alahi wasallim
jews and christians disbelieve in both therefore we regard them as disbeliever in faith
but in worldly realtion we trust and distrust them according to theirs moral character:w:

[poga]

Hi Everyone:

I am a Christian and I wanted to know why Muslims appear to generally distrust Christians and Jews. I therefore read the Koran and published my findings in three articles in our local newspaper. See the following:

http://researching.wordpress.com/200...alance-part-1/

I have read the Bible about 20 times and the Koran 3 times. The evidence supports Mohammed being a Prophet sent by God - which I have come to believe. I have found that this belief does not conflict with my Christian beliefs. True Muslims must therefore be my brothers and sisters.

I think that I understand where the distrust comes from, and I would welcome your comments, especially if I have inadvertently misunderstood something in the Koran.

Regards,
Grenville

:sl: as you say you believe muhammad sallel la hu alahi wasallim as prophet of allah thats makes you muslim
now let me be the first person to congratulate you in the path of islam sister may allah's marcy peace and blessing be upon you:w:

[YEh]

You must be kidding!!!! PLEASE tell me you aren't a Christian or else I am extremely worried about how ignorant you are of your own religion!

So how many wives did Solomon and David have again? :? One thing I can tell you for certain is that it wasn't ONE each!

David and Solomon sinned by marrying more than one wife. It says that they sinned and turned away from God by marrying wives of many tribes.

It's one of the ten commandments !!!

Exodus 20:

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

Now are you going to say that the 10 Commandments were corrupted ????

:exhausted

YEh

[- Qatada -]

Sorry ???? :? Who walks around naked ? Are you implying that the way we dress is pretty much naked to you ?

If it is then it's no wonder people distrust Muslims. :laugh: :raging:

I'm asking you if being covered up is a sign of a loss of trust?

I know it's not permissable I have read the Quaran with tafsirs and hadith. And his biography. It's that these people can even think about such a crime, knowing how wrong it is. Islam doesn't seem to change many hearts. Since most do not follow the religion.
That's the point i'm making.

I can tell you that the Qur'an changes much more peoples lives than christians, since its rare for them to even read their scripture! They take the churches word over Jesus son of Mary's [yet we're not even sure of that now are we? since its not authenticated.] They worship Jesus son of Mary when he called people to worship God, our Creator and Sustainer Alone. But guess what? They worship him instead.

Prove to me where it says in the bible that polygamy is forbidden? If it doesn't - then that means its permitted.

Well the best example is Adam and Eve. God didn't create 2 eve's for Adam.
One man for every woman. Anything more is perverted and carnal.

In Exodus it states you shall not commit adultery, which means do not sleep with anyone else but your wife. And then it goes on to say that even wanting someone else is also wrong.

Jesus also quotes what it says here to confirm it. But also adds some other aspect to the teaching.

We'll use the concept of David and Solomon, they married many many wives. Yet they were prophets of God. And again - you havn't quoted me anything from your scripture which prohibits polygamy explicitly. All you did was quote me the idea of adultery being forbidden.

This is just a stupid thing to say. It depends on the woman. Also because it's our nature does that make it right ?

So according to christianity, a woman can get married to two men? :?

No, that's just a claim. Like the 15 minute abs commercials that claim that just by using their machine for 15 minutes a day you will have rock hard abs.
But if you look up any health book it says that you may have rock hard abs, but without some cardio work you will not be seeing your abs. Because they will be under a layer of fat. So you won't look like their fitness models and personal trainers by just using their equipment. That's just false.

Thanks for ignoring all that i mentioned in regard to that - i've explained to you how the Qur'an is the book of God. Now you prove to me how the bible truelly is? :) Infact, explain to me how the bible is even authentic? Maybe that could be a starting point for you? :)

this was the post which explained how the Qur'an is the word of God if you want to check over it again.

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2


32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

This was the time of the law, where it was eye for an eye. Any sin done to God and you are going to pay the price of your sin (the wages of sin is death).Now it is the time of grace.
You quote the OT and think Christians still follow this. I suggest you read the NT first before commenting.
Since we believe the law was completed (fulfilled) by Jesus so if we follow him we have obeyed the law as well as God.

Jesus never came to abolish the law. :)

In fact you have proved it. Since God is a God of justice. People who turn against his people, God will protect them, and execute judgement upon them. That is the law.

You really think so? I thought you guys believed that it was Jesus son of Mary who innocently got killed? Obviously we dont believe that, since Jesus son of Mary was raised upto God without being killed. But maybe you could explain how that is justice?

This is not a command for anyone to follow though, this is an act of God that he was overseeing.

So that means that anyone can do whatever he wants on the land without fear of being taken to trial in this world? Do whatever sin you want? Since there is no law for man?

What is evil, what is good ?

What is said by God and His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.) :)

Well they were done by catholics about 900 years ago so..... it's not the same thing.
We have all this knowledge we have gathered which teaches from experience that, these acts are just so devilish and just wrong.

Prove to me that what they did is wrong? Because they used the name of Christ, ALL of christianity must be evil now right? According to your set of principles? :?

There is no law in Christianity, Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We have to make laws according to our hearts.

Wow, so someone can actually make their own rules? What if the ruler wants to steal, he can also do that?

That is in the best interests of everyone. Not just stick to laws that are 1400 years old. Laws change over time. Technology sure changes it.

So you're prepared to give up your religion for the imperfect laws of man? That just shows that christianity really isn't a religion right? It's just - do whatever you want and your forgiven? Don't you know that you will return to God and be judged on all your own actions - and no soul bears the burden of another?

And studies into pyschology change laws. You can't obey 2 laws they would just contradict. One religious the other secular.

Follow the one which God revealed, why not? Because He revealed it for a reason obviously.

We obey the laws of the country. The Jews were given the law. You can't give the world law. It makes no sense !

God can send the law to all the world. Why can't He? When He created us all when we were nothing? So shouldn't He also send us a set of guidelines to what is wrong and right?

That is not the same thing. Jesus said "DO UNTO...." Not love for your brother.

What's the difference?

In any case Muhammad did not add anything to which could be considered new or inspirational.

He came with the same message as all the previous Prophets of God, why wouldn't he? All the Prophets of God called to worship God Alone and to shun all false deities [no humans, no idols, no philosophies which oppose the law of God] and to establish the prayer, to enjoin the family ties, to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. To help the needy, to encourage others to be patient, to love God, and to fear to disobey Him, and to hope for His reward.

They warned their people of the Day to come, when every soul will be judged on its own deeds, they told their people to obey them and to worship God Alone. They gave them glad tidings of a Paradise for those who obeyed God and His Messenger, yet they warned those who disbelieved of a terrible torment - if they were to disobey God and His Messenger. This was the same message of ALL the 124,000 Prophets of God.

Like I said this is not the way to determine what is right and wrong and is a very dangerous way of determining if something is good or if something is not good.
By someone's opinion (Muhammad's) you have to test to see if what he says leads to good outcomes or not. Not just take his word for it. That is stupid and a little crazy to me.

YEh

It did actually, :) the whole world came out from the dark ages into the New ages of today. And justice spread far and wide, until the people turned their backs towards Gods religion. This is when the people became weak and humiliated, simply because they turned away from God Almighty. Yet He will raise them up once again once they turn back to Him. We hope to be of them, in this life and the next. ameen.

[Umar001]

Oh guys just to remind incase reminder benefits, but it's like three people talking to one, and the replies are getting rather long.

Let us all try to take our time to make each and every point in a post sincere and correct.

[YEh]

David and Solomon sinned by marrying more than one wife. It says that they sinned and turned away from God by marrying wives of many tribes.

So how many wives did Solomon and David have again? One thing I can tell you for certain is that it wasn't ONE each!

David and Solomon sinned by marrying more than one wife. It says that they sinned and turned away from God by marrying wives of many tribes.

It's one of the 10 Commandments !!!

Exodus 20:

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

Now are you going to say that the 10 Commandments were corrupted ????

Muhammad contradicted a fundamental Commandment !!!! Polygamy is forbidden !!!!
Yet Muhammad said go for it "marry up to four".
[/QUOTE]

YEh

[- Qatada -]

David and Solomon sinned by marrying more than one wife. It says that they sinned and turned away from God by marrying wives of many tribes.

It's one of the 10 Commandments !!!

So you believe that God sent Prophets and Messengers', and he never sent them revelation to tell them that what they're doing is wrong?

Muhammad contradicted a fundamental Commandment !!!! Polygamy is forbidden !!!!
Yet Muhammad said go for it "marry up to four".

The people married MORE than 4 at that time, so God limited it to 4 only as a maximum. And along with that came an important rule:

To orphans restore their property (When they reach their age), nor substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

[Qur'an 4: 2-3]

Again, you'll still have to bring explicit proof from the bible that polygamy is forbidden in christianity.

[Walter]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah and Al Habeshi:

I understand the tradition that the Koran is not a book but the recitation. However as I explained to Islamirama, we must be willing to set aside tradition or our opinions when it conflicts with truth.

The Koran repeatedly explains that Muslims must believe the previous Books sent by God - not sayings nor recitations but BOOKS.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

I believe that Islam is currently where Christianity was before the reformation (1500 AD). The Roman Catholic (RC) organisation had the Bible copied in Latin, therefore only a few who studied Latin could read it. The RC organisation corrupted the Bible teachings in order to control the people, and would refuse debate claiming that they alone had an infallible interpretation. After the reformation, the Bible was mass printed and became available to the masses. Of course there must be some study and interpretation of certain verses; however, all people can now benefit from the knowledge of God contained therein.

Regarding the originals not being available. You are probably correct; however, they were copied and it would appear quite faithfully. The copies were obviously available during the time of Mohammed since he repeatedly admonished his followers to believe them. However, he, like Jesus, recommended that the people not follow the religious leader’s corrupt practises. It was the religious leaders’ behaviour that was corrupt, and not the scriptures, which Mohammed admonished his followers to read.

The copies that were available during the time of Mohammed are available for study today.

Regards,
Grenville

[- Qatada -]

Hi Grenville.


Infact, their not. Thats the problem. The earliest scriptures found after God's servant & Messenger Jesus son of Mary are around 300years after him. And we know that God's final servant & Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) came around 600years after Jesus son of Mary.

Therefore the scripture isn't the original, even at that time. Especially when we know that the Byzantinian Romans had already mixed in the beliefs of the pagans with christianity. So we don't accept the scripture which exists now, however we do believe in the Gospel which was revealed to the Messiah, son of Mary (peace be upon him) at his time.



Regards.

[Walter]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah:

Please investigate your assertion.

There are fragments of the Gospel of John dating back to 125 AD which are the same as later manuscripts. Other Gospels are earlier.

The Codex Vaticanus (300 AD) can be viewed in the Vatican with permission.

The Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD) is on permanent display at the British Museum.

The Codex Alexandrinus (450 AD) also resides in the British Museum.

Regards,
Grenville

[- Qatada -]

Thankyou for the info. :)


I just want to clarify one thing though; the arabs were an illiterate people, the majority never knew how to read or write. Therefore i think most never really even read the bible.


Even if we were to say - for the sake of discussion - that the bible is authentic, we know that there is no mention whatsoever of Jesus son of Mary telling the people to worship him. And this is the truth since we know that there is no one worthy of worship except God Alone, the One and Only, the One who created us, the One who sustains us, the One who will cause us to die and the One who will raise is back to life again to judge us on what we did in this life. Did we really obey the Messenger sent to us?

Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Al-Mushrikûn (the polytheists) were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.

A Messenger (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from Allâh, reciting (the Qur'ân) purified pages [purified from Al-Bâtil (falsehood, etc.)].

Containing correct and straight laws from Allâh.


And the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) differed not until after there came to them clear evidence. (i.e. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and whatever was revealed to him).

And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allâh, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him), and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât - the 5 daily Prayers) and give Zakât (the charity): and that is the right religion.

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikûn will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.


Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh, and in His Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) including all obligations ordered by Islâm] and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures.

Their reward with their Lord is 'Adn (Eden) Paradise (Gardens of Eternity), underneath which rivers flow, they will abide therein forever, Allâh Well-Pleased with them, and they with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord.


[Qur'an - Al Bayyinah [the Clear Proof/Evidence] 98]

[YEh]

[/B]

So you believe that God sent Prophets and Messengers', and he never sent them revelation to tell them that what they're doing is wrong?

Yes he did. He clearly states that what they did was wrong.

The people married MORE than 4 at that time, so God limited it to 4 only as a maximum. And along with that came an important rule:

To orphans restore their property (When they reach their age), nor substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.

If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
[Qur'an 4: 2-3]

So if the people of the time married more than 4. You think it good that Muhammad limit it to 4 ? That's wrong.

Again, you'll still have to bring explicit proof from the bible that polygamy is forbidden in christianity.

I did quote from the NT. That Jesus said that:

Matthew 5
New International Version (NIV)

Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus confirmed the 10 Commandments (The law).

I have quoted that the Bible mentions both Jesus and Moses believed in the 10 Commandments. Which Muhammad contradicted so he cannot be another prophet.
Since he didn't confirm what came before him.

He actually came to pervert the teachings of God.

YEh

[Woodrow]

I did quote from the NT. That Jesus said that:



Jesus confirmed the 10 Commandments (The law).

I have quoted that the Bible mentions both Jesus and Moses believed in the 10 Commandments. Which Muhammad contradicted so he cannot be another prophet.
Since he didn't confirm what came before him.

He actually came to pervert the teachings of God.

YEh

The only problem is the Early books the Tauret, Zaboor and Injil no longer exist in their original form and have changed considerably. The portions we can believe are those parts that are in agreement with the Qur'an.

Which 10 commandments do you follow. Those of the Jewish Torah:

The commandments

Compared to the Ethical Decalogue, the Ritual Decalogue is clearer about where one commandment ends and the next begins; and as the Ritual Decalogue is less important in most modern faiths, it is less divisive to enumerate its commandments. To paraphrase,

1. Worship no other god than Yahweh: Make no covenant with the inhabitants of other lands to which you go, do not intermarry with them, and destroy their places of worship.
2. Do not cast idols.
3. Observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread for seven days in the month of Abib.
4. Sacrifice firstborn male animals to Yahweh. The firstborn of a donkey may be redeemed; redeem firstborn sons.
5. Do no work or even kindle a fire on the seventh day. Anyone who does so will be put to death.
6. Observe the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Ingathering: All males are therefore to appear before Yahweh three times each year.
7. Do not mix sacrificial blood with leavened bread.
8. Do not let the fat of offerings remain until the morning.
9. Bring the choicest first fruits of the harvest to the Temple of Yahweh.
10. Do not cook a goat in its mother's milk.

Source:

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_Decalogue

Traditional division and interpretation

According to the Medieval Sefer ha-Chinuch, the first four statements concern the relationship between God and humans, while the next six statements concern the relationships between people. Rabbinic literature holds that the Ten Statements in fact contain 14 or 15 distinct instructions.

1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."

This commandment is to believe in the existence of God and His influence on events in the world, and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become His servants (Rashi). It prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities.

2. "Do not make a image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

This prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshipping them.

3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."

This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain, pointless or insincere oath.[23]

4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe")

The seventh day of the week is termed Shabbat and is holy, just as God ceased creative activity during Creation. The aspect of zachor is performed by declaring the greatness of the day (kiddush), by having three festive meals, and by engaging in Torah study and pleasurable activities. The aspect of shamor is performed by abstaining from productive activity (39 melachot) on the Shabbat.

5. "Honor your father and your mother..."

The obligation to honor one's parents is an obligation that one owes to God and fulfills this obligation through one's actions towards one's parents.

6. "Do not murder"

Murdering a human being is a capital sin.[24]

7. "Do not commit adultery."

Adultery is defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a married woman who is not his wife.[23]

8. "Do not steal."

This is not understood as stealing in the conventional sense, since theft of property is forbidden elsewhere and is not a capital offense. In this context it is to be taken as "do not kidnap."[23]

9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"

One must not bear false witness in a court of law or other proceeding.

10. "Do not covet your neighbor's house"

One is forbidden to desire and plan how one may obtain that which God has given to another. Maimonides makes a distinction in codifying the laws between the instruction given here in Exodus (You shall not covet) and that given in Deuteronomy (You shall not desire), according to which one does not violate the Exodus commandment unless there is a physical action associated with the desire, even if this is legally purchasing an envied object.'

Roman Catholic, Lutheran & Anglican Christianity

The Anglican, Lutheran and Roman Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts. For additional information on the Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), sections 2052-2557. References to the Catechism are provided below for each commandment as well as the interpretation used by Lutherans and Catholics. The following text is from Deuteronomy 5:6-5:21 NRSV:

1. "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Catholic teaching distinguishes between dulia—paying honor to God through contemplation of objects such as paintings and statues—and latria—adoration directed to God alone. (See Catechism 2084-2141.)

2. "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

This commandment prohibits not just swearing but the misappropriation of religious language in order to commit a crime, participating in occult practices, and blaspheming against places or people that are holy to God. (See Catechism 2142-2167.)

3. "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."
4. "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

This commandment emphasizes the family as part of God's design, as well as an extended metaphor that God uses for his relationship with his creation. (See Catechism 2197-2257.)

5. "You shall not murder."

The right of states to execute criminals is recognized when necessary to preserve the safety of citizens. However, other methods of protecting society (incarceration, rehabilitation) are increasingly available. Catholics (along with many Protestants) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258-2330.)

6. "Neither shall you commit adultery."

Adultery is the breaking of the holy bond between husband and wife, and is thus a sacrilege. This commandment includes not just the act of adultery, but lust as well. (See Catechism 2331-2400.)

7. "Neither shall you steal."

(See Catechism 2401-2463.)

8. "Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."

This commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in relations with others. This also forbids lying. (See Catechism 2464-2513.)

9. "Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife."

(See Catechism 2514-2533.)

10. "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(See Catechism 2534-2557.)

Jehovah's Witnesses

Jehovah's Witnesses hold that the commandments were given together with the Mosaic Law and the old covenant. While they understand the Bible as saying Christians are not bound by the Ten Commandments, (Colossians 2:13-14) they recognize the importance the Bible places on these principles for living a Christian life. (Galatians 6:2; Matthew 22:35-40) They believe that the Sabbatarian law is obsolete. (Colossians 2:16-17)

The first four commandments define the correct relationship between God and man.

* First - Jehovah exacts exclusive devotion; He tolerates no rivalry with other gods. (Ex. 20:3)
* Second - Images are never to be used in worship. All forms of idolatry are an open affront to Jehovah. (v.4-6)
* Third - The use of God’s name is to be dignified, never used disrespectfully.

When the Israelites became unfaithful they, as representatives of Jehovah by bearing his name, "took it up" or "carried" it "in vain." (v.7)

* Fourth - The Sabbath day was reserved for reflection on spiritual things, a day of rest from work so that the Israelites could meditate on Jehovah's Laws without distraction. (v.8-10)

* Fifth- This commandment can be seen as the linking together of the first four (defining man's proper relationship with God) and the final six, (showing the proper relationships between humans) It is the obedience children owe their parents. This is a relationship which extends beyond childhood. To respect one’s parents is to show respect for the ultimate parent, Jehovah God.(v.12)

* Sixth through Ninth - Murder, adultery, stealing and lying are very pointed thus leaving no room for interpretation. These things are not to be practiced. (v.13-16)
* Tenth – This makes it clear that not only were the Israelites not to practice the things mentioned in the previous nine commands, but that they were also to not allow a desire for these things to take root in their hearts and minds. (v.17)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

Although the Qur'an does not separate the 10 Commandments out as other faiths do, here is what we can find from the Qur'an

Muslim understanding


In Islam Moses/Musa is venerated as one of the greatest prophets of God. However, Islam also teaches that the texts of the Torah and the Gospels have been corrupted from their divine originals over the years, due to carelessness or self-interest. Despite this purported corruption, messages from the Torah and the Gospels still coincide closely with certain verses in the Qur'an. This is by-and-large the case with the Ten Commandments. Consequently, despite the Ten Commandments not being explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an they are substantially similar to the following verses in the Qur'an (using Jewish numbering of the Commandments):

1. "There is no other god beside God."(47:19)
2. "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols." (14:35)
3. "Do not subject God's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people." (2:224)
4. "O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD, and drop all business." (62:9)
The Sabbath was relinquished with the revelation of the Quran. Muslims are told in the Quran that the Sabbath was only decreed for the Jews. (16:124) God, however, ordered Muslims to make every effort and drop all businesses to attend the congregational (Friday) prayer. The Submitters may tend to their business during the rest of the day.
5. "....and your parents shall be honoured. As long as one or both of them live, you shall never (even) say to them, "Uff" (the slightest gesture of annoyance), nor shall you shout at them; you shall treat them amicably." (17:23)
6. "....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people." (5:32)
7. "You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behaviour." (17:32)
8. "The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from God. God is Almighty, Most Wise." (5:38 - 39)
9. "Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds a testimony is sinful at heart." (2:283)
10. "And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting." (20:131)

It can also be noted that in the 17th chapter, "Al-Israa" ("The Night Journey"), verses 22-37, the Qur'an provides a set of moral stipulations which are "among the (precepts of) wisdom, which thy Lord has revealed to thee" that can be reasonably categorised as ten in number. It should be noted however, that these verses are not regarded by Islamic scholars as being somehow set apart from any other moral stipulations in the Qur'an, nor are they regarded as a substitute, replacement or abrogation of some other set of commandments as found in the previous revelations.

1. Worship only God: Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution. (17:22)
2. Be kind, honourable and humble to one's parents: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. (17:23) And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." (17:24)
3. Be neither miserly nor wasteful in one's expenditure: And render to the kindred their due rights, as (also) to those in want, and to the wayfarer: But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift. (17:26) Verily spendthrifts are brothers of the Evil Ones; and the Evil One is to his Lord (himself) ungrateful. (17:27) And even if thou hast to turn away from them in pursuit of the Mercy from thy Lord which thou dost expect, yet speak to them a word of easy kindness. (17:28) Make not thy hand tied (like a niggard's) to thy neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach, so that thou become blameworthy and destitute. (17:29)
4. Do not engage in 'mercy killings' for fear of starvation: Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin. (17:31)
5. Do not commit adultery: Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (17:32)
6. Do not kill unjustly: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33)
7. Care for orphaned children: Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength...(17:34)
8. Keep one's promises: ...fulfil (every) engagement [i.e. promise/covenant], for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). (17:34)
9. Be honest and fair in one's interactions: Give full measure when ye measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight: that is the most fitting and the most advantageous in the final determination. (17:35)
10. Do not be arrogant in one's claims or beliefs: And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). (17:36) Nor walk on the earth with insolence: for thou canst not rend the earth asunder, nor reach the mountains in height. (17:37)

[Malaikah]

YEh, there are so many problems with this post...

David and Solomon sinned by marrying more than one wife. It says that they sinned and turned away from God by marrying wives of many tribes.

According to Grace Seeker, who is a Christian pastor, their polygamy was not considered a sin. Abraham too was polygamous. Polygamy was very common in the OT. Were they all sinning??

Please refer to his post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...stians-40.html

It's one of the 10 Commandments !!!

The commandment was against adultery, NOT polygamy. They are two different things. Your point is baseless.

Now are you going to say that the 10 Commandments were corrupted ????

No, there are fine as far as I am aware. You are just interpreting them in the wrong way.

Muhammad contradicted a fundamental Commandment !!!! Polygamy is forbidden !!!!
Yet Muhammad said go for it "marry up to four".

By your own admission, so did David and Solomon (if we follow your logic). Therefore this point can not be taken to show that Prophet Muhammad was any less of a prophet than David and Solomon because he did the same thing they did.

NOT that I believe that David and Solomon were major sinners as you Christians believe, and neither was Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them). None but the most righteous of men are chosen for prophethood by Allah.

[Philosopher]

King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Also note that 1 Kings 11:1-3 says that:

But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites; from the nations of whom the LORD had said to the children of Israel.

King David had 6 wives and numerous concubines.

When I tried to look up the explanation, I came up with this:
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/DavdSolomon.html

David and Solomon, to name but two such major Old Testament figures, had many wives and concubines. As did a great many other "great men of the bible" who were men of God. It was just normal and accepted.

Concubinage was a legally sanctioned and socially acceptable practice in ancient cultures, including that of the Hebrews; concubines, however, were denied the protection to which a legal wives was entitled. . . . . the concubine's status was inferior to that of a legal wife. Her children had certain rights, including support by the father and legitimacy in the event of the marriage of the parents

David, Solomon and many other biblical men who had many wives and concubines worshiped the the one, true God, and their having wives and concubines was never stated as being anything sinful in the Bible.

Questions

(1) Why is it now that having more than one wife or having a concubine is considered sinful by most modern-day fundamentalist Chrisitans? Jesus never said anything about it in the NT, so why is the Law being interpreted differently now than it was in the days of David and Solomon?

How would a "concubine" in the days of David and Solomon be different from a "kept woman" today? Or a prostitute? Today the women make the choice to be "kept" or a prostitute. In biblical times usually the concubines were slaves, often foreign women captured in battle. But again it was never wrong.

Another even simplier question is how about all the great men of the bible that had so many wives, not just concubines. There was nothing wrong with this in the OT and never mentioned as bad in the NT other than the elders of Timothy and Titus due probably to local problems were told by Paul to only have one wife.

It is clearly and simply stated in the Bible with no forcing or circumlocution that David, Solomon, and others had wives and concubines, and were men of God. No twisted logic. No playing with words. Plain and simple hermeneutically-acceptable language.

So what plain, simple, un-forced, un-convuluted rationale can you give for the fact that modern-day fundamentalist Christians say that having multiple wives and concubines is a sin?

Either this is, was, and always will be a sin, or not. Which is it?

The Church is always talking about David’s adultery with Bathseba, but never talks about God solution in 2 Samuel 12:8 where God told David that instead of stealing another man wife away from him and killing him, that he should have prayed to God and ask for as many women as he wanted and God would have given him as many women as he wanted, as long has he did not steal and betray another man by stealing his wife. This show clearly that God is not hung up with how many women you have as long as you are not stealing other men wives from them.

In both the OT and NT they would use their sexual to worship a sex, fertility deity, “god” and that was fornication and evil. Sex is not evil. But praising some other man made deity god for creating sex and worshipping so that god would give you good farm crops is what is evil (that is adultery against God). In the Bible adultery against God was worshipping another deity other then Him. Sex had nothing to do with it at all. Betrayal is what adultery is about not sex.

If I say you could have sex with my wife all day long, that is not an offence or betrayal, that would be with permission and a love gift to you and my wife to enjoy and have fun.

Even Abraham gave his wife, Sarah, up to have sex with another kings 2 different times that was not sin, But God stepped in and used it to help Abraham gain more wealth. Abraham sold his wife to these kings. What was bad about it was it was permanent sale. God stepped in to reverse the permanent sale part of it and Abraham got to keep the things and got his wife back on top of it. 2 different times this same thing happen. Both times God blessed them for it.

(The New Living Translation ) 2 Samuel 12:8 I (God) gave you his (Saul's) house and his wives and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you much, much more.

Solomon’s problem was he supported his wives and concubine in helping them worship their gods. He wanted to make them happy. Instead he should have told them that there is only one God and He alone is who we will worship. Sex was not the sin. But the sex must have been so good that he wanted to make his women happy also, so he gave in to the women.

There was no sin in asking the Good Lord for some good women to have good sex with, just don't steal another man's wife. Ask first.

[Philosopher]

Also note that the Trinity violates the first commandment. So Paul perverted God's supreme laws.

[Walter]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah:

I apologise for my delayed response, but I have just returned from London where I visited the British Museum to confirm the accessibility of the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Alexandrinus. Allow me to report that these manuscripts have been moved to the British Library, and they are available for viewing by anyone. There is currently a display called “Sacred” at the British Library which displays many early manuscripts and equipment used by Israelites, Christians and Muslims. Any one visiting the UK is encouraged to view it.

There was one display of a copy of the authorised version of the Koran that was commissioned by the 3rd Caliph Uthman around 650 AD. It is on animal skin, and the library records thus: “Uthman was anxious to establish the correct reading of the Qur’an as different memorized versions had circulated since Mohammed’s death in 632.”

Fi_Sabilillah, this thread has become quite full with completely separate debates on extraneous issues (polygamy, current crimes, mode of dress, etc). I acknowledged my erroneous thread title, and had requested that it be changed to “Why does the Koran teach Muslims to distrust some Jews and Christians”. I would like to research and respond to every ‘on-thread’ query; however, I believe that anyone trying to follow this thread may get more than a little confused. Is there any way that you can:

1. Change the title of the tread?
2. Repost the extraneous issues on a separate thread?

Best regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah and Al Habeshi:

I understand the tradition that the Koran is not a book but the recitation. However as I explained to Islamirama, we must be willing to set aside tradition or our opinions when it conflicts with truth.

But how do we know what is truth? We research, thus, it only makes sense to take understand a book in the way the one who was given it had understood it, so his opinion is as good as the book itself!

The Koran repeatedly explains that Muslims must believe the previous Books sent by God - not sayings nor recitations but BOOKS.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Well I said I could believe int he Books, meaning that I believe God sent them, but that now they have been changed or lost, theres nothin in the passage that denies that, furthermore, the rest of the Qu'ran indicates that they have been changed and so does history!

After the reformation, the Bible was mass printed and became available to the masses. Of course there must be some study and interpretation of certain verses; however, all people can now benefit from the knowledge of God contained therein.

Actually the Qu'ran was out with the masses from the start, this was one of the thing in my view that aided the preservation.

Regarding the originals not being available. You are probably correct; however, they were copied and it would appear quite faithfully.

Explain to me how you conclude quite faithfully, under what proof or information do you state quite faithfully, rather if you read about it you find that the manuscripts are catagorised in four different catagories and the major bulk of the manuscripts available to us are of a catagory whose's characteristics are outright fabrication and harmonization amongst other things.

The copies were obviously available during the time of Mohammed since he repeatedly admonished his followers to believe them.

To believe something does not mean that the thing has to be with you, you believe in God but does that mean that God is there in the flesh? No, Muhammad telling his followers to believe in Books or Angels does not neccesitate the Books or Angels being present.

However, he, like Jesus, recommended that the people not follow the religious leader’s corrupt practises. It was the religious leaders’ behaviour that was corrupt, and not the scriptures, which Mohammed admonished his followers to read.

Again that is your presumption without proof, for example, Muhammad said that if Moses was here he'd have to follow the law of Muhammad. This is indicative to the fact that the laws of Moses and Jesus were for a time period and a people and so were their books.

Regards,

Eesa

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Let us put aside our opinions for a moment and ask a question of recorded history as you have indirectly requested.

Question. Is the Bible essentially the same today as when it was first recorded?

Answer. All earlier finds of manuscripts support the position that the Bible is materially the same as when it was first recorded. Whether the Nash Papyrus (200 BC), Dead Sea Scrolls, parts of the Gospel of John (125 AD) or the Codex Sinaiticus (300 AD), or the over 200 separate biblical manuscripts before 600 AD, the copying appears to be faithfully carried out.

There is also historical evidence from other sources and a host of archaeological evidence that supports Biblical accounts of history. Therefore, by 600 AD, there were a variety of faithfully copied biblical translations for any of Mohammed’s followers to read.

As I previously explained, Jesus and Mohammed were not disputing the reliability of the Scriptures. They were however, both angry at the religious leader’s corrupt practices.

Regards,
Grenville

[Kashnowe]

Ask any woman and she would prefer one man over loads, thats their nature.

AHHEEEMM. this is not true. i would love to have 3 or 4 husbands at my beckon call whenever i wanted them.

unfortunately people (men and women) are extremely jealous by nature. jealousy is intrinsic.

polygamy is not a good idea if you want a healthy relationship.

i did once watch a documentary about a small tribe in new zealand (i think) where the women were permitte d as many husbands as they wanted and are able to divorce them whenever they see fit. and the men must comply. and the men are not allowed to have mroe than one wife.

interesting :))

me likee

[Balthasar21]

Because of their teacher's and media !

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

After reviewing this thread, I conclude my opinion that Jews, Christians and Muslims do not trust each other because each of us believe that they we have an exclusive access to God. Christians will not trust Jews unless they accept the Messiah Jesus. Muslims will not trust Christians and Jews unless they accept their prophet Mohammed. Jews will not trust Christians and Muslims until they become Jews.

I believe that we should try to sort ourselves out before the Lord returns to judge the earth. We all desire the same personal relationship with God that Abraham had. We each have differing traditions that we use in order to facilitate the sustainability of our faith, or the passing on of our faith to the next generation.

We spend so much time and effort in either condemning each other’s traditions or proclaiming ours as the only acceptable tradition that we miss the common objective. We are holding on so tightly to our traditions and spend our lives protecting it from change that we risk missing out on the all important relationship with God.

We have forgotten that the traditions started with Moses. Abraham had no tradition. He was just a friend with God. Why can’t we simply place our traditions in their rightful priority – which is behind a relationship with the God of Abraham and a relationship with each other?

Best regards,
Grenville

[barney]

Because "Mohammend brought the final message", and "noone will enter the gates of paradise except throught Jesus".

As a Agnostic, I like to reflect on Douglas Adams's "Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" book, where God writes his final- final message to mankind at the end of the universe in million mile high neon letters which reads:

"We Apologise for the Inconvenience-Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible"

[جوري]

Hi Everyone:

We have forgotten that the traditions started with Moses. Abraham had no tradition. He was just a friend with God. Why can’t we simply place our traditions in their rightful priority – which is behind a relationship with the God of Abraham and a relationship with each other?

Best regards,
Grenville

We Muslims believe that Abraham PBUH, also had traditions (there are five books) you might want to reflect on these verses--

[Pickthal 87:17] Although the Hereafter is better and more lasting.

إِنَّ هَذَا لَفِي الصُّحُفِ الْأُولَى {18}

[Pickthal 87:18] Lo! This is in the former scrolls.

صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى {19}

[Pickthal 87:19] The Books of Abraham and Moses.

Called the Suhuf of Abraham-- true Abraham was an Island, not just a friend to G-D-- five books not three...

the rest of your conclusion, I suppose is subjective? maybe objective, I can't comment much... Muslims view Christians and Jews as people of the book... I don't think the afore two view us the same way? also contrary to popular beliefs-- there are a party of Jews and Christians who are to enter heaven-- It is really up to G-D-- we are not funneling people and directing traffic... I think it is a huge transgression to do so-- there are some Hadith to allude that Muslims makeup only 1/2 the people in heaven.. I'll try to post it later...

peace!

[جوري]

here is the hadith

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 265:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "On the day of Resurrection Allah will say, 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik our Lord, and Sa'daik ' Then there will be a loud call (saying), Allah orders you to take from among your offspring a mission for the (Hell) Fire.' Adam will say, 'O Lord! Who are the mission for the (Hell) Fire?' Allah will say, 'Out of each thousand, take out 999.' At that time every pregnant female shall drop her load (have a miscarriage) and a child will have grey hair. And you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet not drunk, but severe will be the torment of Allah." (22.2) (When the Prophet mentioned this), the people were so distressed (and afraid) that their faces got changed (in color) whereupon the Prophet said, "From Gog and Magog nine-hundred ninety-nine will be taken out and one from you. You Muslims (compared to the large number of other people) will be like a black hair on the side of a white ox, or a white hair on the side of a black ox, and I hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise." On that, we said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "I hope that you will be) one-third of the people of Paradise." We again said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "(I hope that you will be) one-half of the people of Paradise." So we said, Allahu Akbar."


SAHIH BUKHARI!

[Walter]

Hi Purset Ambrosia:

Thank you for your useful insights. We must remember that the relationship that Abraham had with God was personal and was described as a friendship. It is this close personal relationship with God that the Torah, Gospels, and the Koran instruct believers to cultivate. Regrettably, we seem to instead cultivate our traditions which may or may not facilitate such a personal relationship.

Doing God’s work is completely separate from knowing God. The Gospels teach that Hell will include those who did what they sincerely believed was God’s work, and which is actually described as God’s work. However, they were disqualified from entering heaven because they did not have that personal relationship with God.

Traditions are important for children. Children need to grow in their trust and love for God and this can be facilitated by our traditions which act as a protective shield against some of the life scarring and fatal consequences of sin. When they are mature enough to accept the responsibility of their actions, then they can, like Abraham, covenant with God. In this covenant, they then rely, not on the protective traditions of their parents or community, but rather on their covenant with God as this friendship is cultivated.

When they have children of their own, then they need to institute these traditions so that their children can be led to covenant with God also. However, there must come a point in everyone’s life when they must leave the security of the tradition, (whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, atheist, agnostic, or whatever type of tradition you were raised under) and have a personal relationship with the God of Abraham for themselves, for there is no other God besides Him.

The cycle then appears to be: You are born and live under a tradition to lead you to covenant with God. Thereafter, you walk with God as your friend and do His will until you die. When you are responsible for children, then you should institute a tradition that will facilitate them choosing a personal relationship with God. This will require that you also follow the tradition as an example to your children, but you know that you are not relying on the tradition any more – you are instead relying on your personal friendship with God.

Therefore, in this context, I have no doubt that Abraham also had some traditions for his household to follow.

I hope that this is clear.

Best regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Let us put aside our opinions for a moment and ask a question of recorded history as you have indirectly requested.

Question. Is the Bible essentially the same today as when it was first recorded?

Answer. All earlier finds of manuscripts support the position that the Bible is materially the same as when it was first recorded. Whether the Nash Papyrus (200 BC), Dead Sea Scrolls, parts of the Gospel of John (125 AD) or the Codex Sinaiticus (300 AD), or the over 200 separate biblical manuscripts before 600 AD, the copying appears to be faithfully carried out.

Well could you shed more light on the Nash Papyrus, what it contains how it is dated and so forth. The Dead Sea Scrolls maybe you could shed more like on those two, the Gospel of John, have you actually seen how much it shows, that's evidence for about 20 letters. The Codex Sinaiticus well do you know what it contains, for example, upto where in Mark it goes? What about the story of the adulterar, what about the scribal editions, how many scribes worked on it, and so forth, and this is pretty late still, the manuscripts that are over 200 are what? Fragments? This is exactly what I mean, within the first 300 years what is there?

There is also historical evidence from other sources and a host of archaeological evidence that supports Biblical accounts of history. Therefore, by 600 AD, there were a variety of faithfully copied biblical translations for any of Mohammed’s followers to read.

First I do not know of which historical evidences you are alluding to, nor the archaological evidences, furthermore I have actually come across a verse which was changed to read a different place in the Gospel of John some say it is because the scribe found it to be wrong thus changed it to a different place.

As for the statement that Muhammad's followers had stuff to read, well again assumption, you have yet to show that the Bible was translated to Arabic.

As I previously explained, Jesus and Mohammed were not disputing the reliability of the Scriptures. They were however, both angry at the religious leader’s corrupt practices.

That's an assumption.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

I respond as follows:

1. The Nash Papyrus contains the 10 commandments and was dated 2nd century BC.

2. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain around 25 books of the Old Testament (need to confirm) and were dated 2nd century BC to 1st century AD.

3. The Papyrus Bodmer (p66) II does not contain 20 letters as you asserted but 75 pages containing most of the Gospel of John. It was dated 125 A.D.

4. The Codex Sinaiticus contains portions of the Old Testament and the complete New Testament. It was dated 4 century AD.

These documents can be compared to show that the information contained in each is essentially the same. Copies of them were apparently shown to Mohammed.

6:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

I have provided sufficient evidence to show that both Jesus and Mohammed were angry with the religious leader’s corrupt practices. Please re-read my article on this topic.

http://researching.wordpress.com/200...alance-part-2/

Regards,
Grenville

[Balthasar21]

Its because of the media / t.v. newspaper / radio and their teacher .Its call my god better then your god .

[cihad]

there is no my god ,your god, there is only Allah

[tears4husain]

:sl: For starters if some one is against what gives yor life meaning, what you live and die for, what you believe in your heart and soul. Why wouldn't there be a conflict? To be honest if you read enough you will see its not just about jews,christians, and muslims its and about right and wrong. Sense no one wants to be wrong there is conflict. Regardless of your belief, a true believer in God hears his revelation and obeys. See christians jesus(a.s.) as a savior, now he says he didnt come to change the laws of the old but to inforce them.the old laws will tell you there is no savior other than God and there is no god but one God. That no soul can bare the judgement of another, no father for the son, nor mother for a daugther,but every soul for its own accord. These are laws that jesus(a.s.) believes, taught, enforced and loved for the sake of his God. if you really look at it who taught christians how to pray? Because there is a description of prayerthe bible. What did jesus(a.s.) say when he met his disciples? Or depart from them? What did he do before he prayed? how many times a day did he pray? How did he fast? did he fast? Christian from the east (of arab decent) call God ALLAH. Every one knows who the holy spirit is, angel Gabriel who brought the revelations to all prophets who got them accept moses. Gabreil is a slave/servant of God and not :rollseyes God.

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

As I continue to reread the Bible and Koran with a clearer perspective, I notice Mohammed accusing some, not all but SOME Christians and Israelite leaders of misleading the people. In the Gospels, we see Jesus accusing the Jewish leaders of misleading people as well.

Jesus noted: But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Matt 23:13

Mohammed noted: Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? 3:71

It should be noted that the accusation was that the scriptures were available and accurate, but that the leaders were purposely misinforming the people.

Therefore a principal source of mistrust is religious leaders who misinform their followers about what the scriptures actually state and what the other group believes. Some Christians are taught to believe that Muslims worship Mohammed and an idol called Allah, while some Muslims are taught to believe that Christians worship 3 gods. Some Christians are taught that the Koran is an evil book, while some Muslims are taught that the Bible has been corrupted. And I can fill this page with thousands other misconceptions which, if true, could inhibit a relationship with the one and only true God.

This early false education creates an obvious distrust and dislike between the groups. Some Muslims cannot conceive of their God accepting worship from the misguided and polytheistic Christians, and some Christians cannot conceive of their God accepting worship from the misguided and idolatrous Muslims. So we continue to train our children to distrust the other based on our misconceptions and we have successfully mis-educated our children in this regard for over 1,300 years.

How can we escape this cycle of distrust. I believe that the cycle of distrust can be broken if Christians were to read the Koran and if Muslims were to read the Bible. I can confirm that after reading the first chapter of the Koran, I immediately could not distrust any one who sincerely believed such beautiful words. After reading the second chapter, I knew that Muslims were my brothers, and after reading the entire Koran, I was distressed that we have been kept apart for so long because of clear misunderstandings on both of our parts.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Best regards,
Grenville

[AB517]

If we all believed what we were taught, we would be able to discuss our differences in peace. But, sadly too many people in each faith have little ability to adequately present truth, so they choose to attack.

To many people there is much personal satisfaction in being able to force another into submission and then think of it in terms they have proven the other person wrong.

It seems very few people understand that it is impossible to prove another person wrong. we can only give reason to show that what we believe is true. No matter what I present to a person of a faith different than mine, they can always come up with a logical reason why that can be an exception and not valid.

If I were to say there is a 10,000 pound purple giraffe sitting on my head. You can not prove there isn't. Further more you would not have to prove it, it would be up to me to prove that there was.

If each of us could understand that the best means of defeating false beliefs is to show the proof for true beliefs, in a kind, loving manner. The truth would spread fast and false beliefs would be replaced with truth. all in the name of love and no need to destroy each other.

I totaly agree here.
Its the actions of men that divide not the teachings of these great religions. I just started to read the koran because Mohammed is a true profit. I stated before that I am from the USA and will not talk to my friends and family about how it is us (us here not USA)versous islam. I talk now about how it is our government against this or that government. I as a christain now listen to those who know the koran because I can learn more about God. Religion, like a hammer can be used to build up or tare down.

I am suprised at the pole results though.

AB

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Let me clarify about Muslims and Christians reading the other’s scriptures. I acknowledge the initial hesitancy in reading the other’s scriptures. I too was hesitant and had to overcome my belief that there was something inherently evil about the Koran and that to read it would corrupt me. I suppose that Muslims will have a similar type of hesitancy in reading the Bible.

I overcame that hesitancy by deciding that I was not reading the Koran for guidance, but simply to see what was in it. I determined that if I came across any satanic worship or demonic ritual, that I would cease reading immediately and ask God to cleanse me. After reading the first chapter, I decided to try to see things from Mohammed’s perspective and give him the benefit of doubt when asking why he did or said what he did. Further, I decided not to conduct a critical analysis the book but to try and determine Mohammed’s intent from the recorded evidence.

Perhaps if Muslims would do the same with the Bible, then we could erase much of the mistrust between us and engage in a more meaningful debate.

Regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

Hi Everyone:

Let me clarify about Muslims and Christians reading the other’s scriptures. I acknowledge the initial hesitancy in reading the other’s scriptures. I too was hesitant and had to overcome my belief that there was something inherently evil about the Koran and that to read it would corrupt me. I suppose that Muslims will have a similar type of hesitancy in reading the Bible.

I overcame that hesitancy by deciding that I was not reading the Koran for guidance, but simply to see what was in it. I determined that if I came across any satanic worship or demonic ritual, that I would cease reading immediately and ask God to cleanse me. After reading the first chapter, I decided to try to see things from Mohammed’s perspective and give him the benefit of doubt when asking why he did or said what he did. Further, I decided not to conduct a critical analysis the book but to try and determine Mohammed’s intent from the recorded evidence.

Perhaps if Muslims would do the same with the Bible, then we could erase much of the mistrust between us and engage in a more meaningful debate.

Regards,
Grenville

I can understand a Muslims reluctance to read the Bible and a Christians reluctance to read the Qur'an. It is not always wise, unless a person has a very firm belief in God(swt) and honestly is using the reading in a constructive manner.

I would not encourage one of my Bothers or Sisters to read the Bible unless I was certain they had a strong foundation in Islam. I doubt if the Bible could convince a Muslim to become a Christian, but I can see it causing some confusion if the person was not well versed in the Qur'an. The confusion could lead to animosity in either direction.

A study of other religions does require a good degree of maturity and the ability to refrain from anger. Most of us are very limited in either or both. I would say read what you can handle, provided it is done with a good intent and the goal is to serve Allah(swt)

[Walter]

Hi Woodrow:

The aim of reading the other’s scripture is not conversion but understanding the other’s perspective and eliminating the distrust between them.

Let me respectfully add that it is unwise to discourage persons from reading the Books sent before which are foundational to Islam. Christians should read the Books sent before to Moses and the Prophets in order to better understand the Gospel. Reading the Jewish scriptures, even as young Christian converts is unlikely to result in them converting to Judaism.

The Koran instructs Muslims to read and believe the foundational Books of Islam which are found in the Bible - not for the purpose of converting to Judaism or Christianity, but to better understand Mohammed’s message. Some try to dissuade Muslims from following the Koran's instruction by claiming that the Books sent before are unavailable; however, this is incorrect.

Since Jesus will judge us all at the end of the Age, we must be careful not to fall into the category of persons whom He chastised while He was on the earth:

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Matt 23:13

Also: He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” Mark 7:8-9

The Kingdom of God is for all people. Our traditions should not prevent persons from seeking after more knowledge of God, and they certainly should not inhibit persons from an Abrahamic relationship with the One and only God whom I believe we are both trying to serve.

Regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

Hi Grenville,

Excellent post. I may sound like I am discouraging people, but I personally feel a person should have the proper intent and purpose for doing so. My concept of that is much like what you wrote.

On occasion I have memories of my very early Catholic days when as Catholics we were forbidden to read any scripture except that approved by the church. Which at the time was only Catholic Bibles (preferably the Latin Vulgate), Catholic Missals and the Baltimore Catechism. Old thoughts die hard, now I do have a tendency to tell Muslims it is best to read just the Qur'an.

But, I agree, if the purpose is to understand and not to convert or be converted, it is very helpful to interfaith communication if we know what we are all talking about.

[Walter]

Hi Woodrow:

You are correct. The two principal reasons for reading the other’s scripture is to understand what the other person believes and more importantly, to help you to understand your own beliefs.

It is impossible for a Christian to fully understand the significance and meaning of some New Testament concepts without reading the Jewish Old Testament. Many concepts are simply stated in the New Testament but are explained in the Jewish scriptures.

Similarly, I believe it is impossible for Muslims to truly understand the significance and meaning of some concepts that are stated in the Koran unless they read the foundational Books. How can Muslims hope to understand the concept of, say, the Messiah unless they read the Old Testament? If they do not read it, then they will remain in the realm of speculation and continue an unnecessary debate in this realm until they choose to seek knowledge from where it may be found. However, as previously explained from personal experience, there will probably be an initial hesitancy which must be overcome – therefore I am sympathetic to the hesitant.

Regards,
Grenville