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guyabano
04-26-2007, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by amani
Peace

thats where youre wrong. lets take islam for instance. islam isnt that we go worship 5 times a day in the Masjid and thats it. it is being a muslims 24/7 in school at the workplace at home when sleeping ALL that time.
Well I accept your opinion, but still, I rejoyce the fact, that religious symbols, like crosses, kippas, hijabs, or whatever else symbols of religions are beeing banned in schools across Europe and USA.
Sad to say, but young people are the most vulnerable to develop hatred in early age, so don't give them simply a trigger for that.
In a school, you go to learn science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever. Your religion, you can practicise outside in a house of your god, a church, mosque...
When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
But when a muslim woman want to study here in a typical christian country, then is always a national disaster, when she cannot do it the way SHE like, but refuse to adopt the culture of the guest-country
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aamirsaab
04-26-2007, 03:00 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by guyabano
Sad to say, but young people are the most vulnerable to develop hatred in
early age, so don't give them simply a trigger for that.
By doing that however will only worsen the situation - an increase in racism and religios hatred to be precise. Here is an analogy: you take a group of tribal folk from the amazon. Put them in a room filled with white folk - you will not see gifts being exchanged. Put those same white folk in the tribal folks village and you will see violence. Why? because we have in each of ourself a form of defense mechanism that keeps us with like with like - sudden changes to this can lead to mucho negative action. If you think racism is bad now, with religious symbols being shown, imagine 3 years without it and then one day a completely devoted christian walks into a class room, with cross symbol and you will see this defense mechanism in it's most extreme form. Basically, you're idea will lead to greater tragedies. I can guess the counter argument would be well we just won't let them in our schools. To this I reply: you cannot prevent this. Why? Because deep down we are tolerant and respectful people, we strive on communication with one another no matter the religion or political views. It's called human nature.


In a school, you go to learn science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever. Your religion, you can practicise outside in a house of your god, a church, mosque...
You're concept of religion is typical: a religion cannot be switched on and off - for many people like myself it is inbuilt within us, so much so that our every action conforms to it. Practicing certain religions requires us to practice ALL THE TIME. Religion is not like a lightbulb, you cannot switch it off.

When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
Because of the reason connected to the veil. If anything, it is more for her own protection. Perhaps you do not understand this concept.

But when a muslim woman want to study here in a typical christian country, then is always a national disaster, when she cannot do it the way SHE like, but refuse to adopt the culture of the guest-country
She cannot do it the way her religion requires it because of the social norms - it is a clash of culture and religion. However, this is not always the case as my experiences at college and university have shown.
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Muezzin
04-26-2007, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I accept your opinion, but still, I rejoyce the fact, that religious symbols, like crosses, kippas, hijabs, or whatever else symbols of religions are beeing banned in schools across Europe and USA.
Why do you rejoice the fact that people of faith are not allowed to exercise their freedom of expression?

Sad to say, but young people are the most vulnerable to develop hatred in early age, so don't give them simply a trigger for that.
Kids will always pick on other kids. Using your logic, red-haired kids should either dye their hair or shave it off, so as to protect themselves from bullying. :rollseyes

In a school, you go to learn science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever. Your religion, you can practicise outside in a house of your god, a church, mosque...
It's a little cross, or a headscarf, or a turban. It's not hurting anyone. I really don't see what the big deal is. And I think kids should learn about other religions in schools. Would you rather they stay ignorant about such a rather important subject?

When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
Oh, really? Got any evidence?

But when a muslim woman want to study here in a typical christian country, then is always a national disaster, when she cannot do it the way SHE like, but refuse to adopt the culture of the guest-country
Eh? It's not just Muslims who are affected in France; anyone who wishes to display their religion is not allowed to, contrary to their freedom of expression.

Banning religious symbols is a perversion of secularism.
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rania2820
04-26-2007, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
This is implying what? That Secular education is evil?
not that its so much evil.but secualr education brought alot of other messed up stuff.like a girl can go and get an abortion without the parents permission,but she can't use an adivl without parents permission. that's just dumb

When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
that's not true.many muslim women don't even wear the veil in the muslim countries.and turkey and Tunisia even ban girls from wearing veil in uni and schools
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guyabano
04-27-2007, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Why do you rejoice the fact that people of faith are not allowed to exercise their freedom of expression?
Because since, schools start to become a safer place, at least in Europe. If you don't know about the religion of sombody, you don't have already some prejudices about

Originally Posted by Muezzin
Kids will always pick on other kids. Using your logic, red-haired kids should either dye their hair or shave it off, so as to protect themselves from bullying. :rollseyes
Offtopic. We speak about religions, not haircolors neither Skincolors.

Originally Posted by Muezzin
It's a little cross, or a headscarf, or a turban. It's not hurting anyone. I really don't see what the big deal is. And I think kids should learn about other religions in schools. Would you rather they stay ignorant about such a rather important subject?
It IS an important Subject, thats why it must be banned from school, so that sutdents can go back to topic, means education and not religion.
As I mentionned already, there are places where you can practicise your religion. If one of my kids get curious about a religion, I will encourage him, find his believings. There is nothing wrong on that. I will not force him to accept my believings, that there is no god exisiting. God just exist inside of you, that's it.

Originally Posted by Muezzin
Oh, really? Got any evidence?
About school now, not directly but I can research.
But a good example was the british female soldier who had to carry a scarf on her head in Iran TV. And don't tell me now, she did it voluntary.

Originally Posted by Muezzin
Eh? It's not just Muslims who are affected in France; anyone who wishes to display their religion is not allowed to, contrary to their freedom of expression.
Good, feel free to express yourself, but keep your religion for yourself and in your heart. Don't display it.

Originally Posted by Muezzin
Banning religious symbols is a perversion of secularism.
Thats' your opinion and I respect it, but I don't share it.
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Muezzin
04-27-2007, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by guyabanao
Because since, schools start to become a safer place, at least in Europe. If you don't know about the religion of sombody, you don't have already some prejudices about
My point is, there are so many other things that kids pick on - hair colour, skin colour, sexual orientation, but do we say 'oh sorry kid, but you have to stop being who you are at school'? No matter what YOU may think, banning religious symbols is still impeding free expression, no matter which way you look at it.

Offtopic. We speak about religions, not haircolors neither Skincolors.
It's the same principle that you're just trying to dodge because you know I'm right and you have no answer.

It IS an important Subject, thats why it must be banned from school, so that sutdents can go back to topic, means education and not religion.
Religious education. England is a secular country. The primary and secondary schools I attended had religious education lessons. Nobody picked on others because of their religions as a result of these lessons. They learned about other religions, one hour every week. They didn't become indoctrinated which you are implying they will. And they didn't stop their three science, English and maths lessons a week because of it.

As I mentionned already, there are places where you can practicise your religion. If one of my kids get curious about a religion, I will encourage him, find his believings. There is nothing wrong on that. I will not force him to accept my believings, that there is no god exisiting. God just exist inside of you, that's it.
You're missing the point. In religious education, you simply learn 'Hey, this is a Sikh, this is what Sikhs believe in', or 'hey, this is a Buddhist, this is what Buddhists believe in'. It's not like 'hey, this is a Jain, you have to convert just by being here'.

About school now, not directly but I can research.
Please do.

But a good example was the british female soldier who had to carry a scarf on her head in Iran TV. And don't tell me now, she did it voluntary.
She was a prisoner. I'm not condoning whatever happened to them, but you were talking about women going to college. Besides, the British naval officer doesn't even prove your point - you said 'she must also wear a veil (or even more)', she was wearing a headscarf. And she was a prisoner, not a schoolchild.

Good, feel free to express yourself, but keep your religion for yourself and in your heart. Don't display it.
That right there is impeding my freedom of expression. Why should people not display it? Because it offends you? I'm sorry, but that's just not the way freedom of expression works - it's not 'oh, you can say anything you like, but don't you dare say anything about religion'. That is ludicrous and I cannot for the life of me believe why people who claim to love democracy so much defend this impediment of freedom of expression. Democracy is fundamentally about choice, not denying people a choice. That's fascism.

Thats' your opinion and I respect it, but I don't share it.
Fine.
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guyabano
04-27-2007, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Please do.
Well I did. Here we go !
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Muezzin
04-27-2007, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I did. Here we go !
Thank you. I think forcing someone to wear a headscarf is wrong (still doesn't prove anything about your allegations that people are forced to wear veils...). I also think forcing someone NOT to is just as wrong. However, that is an Islamic school with its own particular rules - the laws of the country (UK) do not say anything either way; in contrast to France or Turkey which both force students, BY LAW, not to display religious symbols.

Would you like to address this point?

Would you like to address the points about freedom of expression?
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Muezzin
04-27-2007, 01:42 PM
This thread is to continue the discussion started in England's thread 'The Day They Took God Out of the Schools', so as not to drive his discussion off-topic.
Reply

rania2820
04-27-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I did. Here we go !
you are talking about a few schools here.i've been in a couple of muslim countries and girls were rarely forced to wear hijab(except iran ans saudi).my whole life i went to islamic schools and none of the girls were forced to wear hijab

please don't speak about without knowledge. because you nothing about Muslim countries except what you read on the Internet and see on TV
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guyabano
04-27-2007, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by rania2820
you are talking about a few schools here.i've been in a couple of muslim countries and girls were rarely forced to wear hijab(except iran ans saudi).my whole life i went to islamic schools and none of the girls were forced to wear hijab

please don't speak about without knowledge. because you nothing about Muslim countries except what you read on the Internet and see on TV
hmmm yes, the classic answer: You know nothing brap brap brap....

Hey, I have 2 eyes and I can also read. I was requested to post a link, so did I.
And in this link is clearly mentionned : Non-Muslim students at Islamic school forced to wear headscarves

So please spare me these comments 'You know nothing...'
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Uthman
04-27-2007, 06:40 PM
Greetings guyabano

Originally Posted by guyabano
Hey, I have 2 eyes and I can also read.

So please spare me these comments 'You know nothing...'
rania2820's point was that the two eyes you speak of see only what is on the tv and what you read can very often be propoganda, which is most often seen on the internet.

Regards
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SirZubair
04-27-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Hey, I have 2 eyes and I can also read.
If everybody in the world believed everything they read, we'd have a crisis on our hands.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-27-2007, 06:55 PM
Is bad to force someone to wear a headscarf but its ok to have them take it off :rollseyes.
You could shoot me 10 times and I'd never take it off. Its not just a symbol, its my protection, my dignity, my preservation, my life. A cross, turban, or headscarf looks like a symbol only to the likes of you because u dont want to have anything to do with it. That doesnt mean thats how we see it. Yall just need to grow up, quit buggin, and move on.

Peace
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SirZubair
04-27-2007, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
You could shoot me 10 times and I'd never take it off. Its not just a symbol, its my protection, my dignity, my preservation, my life.

Peace
Unless it is a headshot ofcourse... :p
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-27-2007, 07:00 PM
I dont care really. I love my hijab and Allah(swt) too much to wimp out in front of a bullet.

Peace
Reply

SirZubair
04-27-2007, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
I dont care really. I love my hijab and Allah(swt) too much to wimp out in front of a bullet.

Peace
My point was 'you won't have to take it off, if it is a headshot, the hijab will come flying off by itself' :p
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-27-2007, 07:08 PM
^^:X Hope not. Neways off topic that was!

:sl:
Reply

noodles
04-27-2007, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I accept your opinion, but still, I rejoyce the fact, that religious symbols, like crosses, kippas, hijabs, or whatever else symbols of religions are beeing banned in schools across Europe and USA.
Sad to say, but young people are the most vulnerable to develop hatred in early age, so don't give them simply a trigger for that.
No, youngsters arent to blame for the hatred of their peers. It is the adults who are to blame for their youngin's actions. Youngsters learn from their parents and if the parents display negative emotions towards a different set of people, the traits are likely to appear in ther children. If you are looking for someone to blame, then you only look into a mirror.

In a school, you go to learn science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever. Your religion, you can practicise outside in a house of your god, a church, mosque...
When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
But when a muslim woman want to study here in a typical christian country, then is always a national disaster, when she cannot do it the way SHE like, but refuse to adopt the culture of the guest-country
As for the practical application of religion, let me just ask you, if it is so that we go to school to learn "science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever" then why do we ever put on any clothes? Why not just walk in naked?

The reponse would be somewhere along the lines to dress modestly and perhaps for protection. In a similar way, Hijab is a form of protection for the muslim women and if they feel they should wear it, then please do allow it.

When a country claims it is a democracy, why does it feel otherwise?
Reply

جوري
04-28-2007, 02:32 AM
It is a parochial school not a secular school... when I went to catholic school though I am a Muslim I wore catholic school uniform..Public schools are different from parochial schools.

You shouldn't be banned from wearing conservative clothes..
if they are banned then I suggest they also ban, the ultra rogue dress, sported by teenagers to meet with current fashion trends. Honestly sometimes they look like little run away hooker. Little do I know, that is actually the trend they are going for.

Bottom line, if you are attending a parochial school, then adhere to its laws
If you are attending a public school, then just like you have a right to show up in skimpy little jeans with your thong showing every time you bend over, by same token, you also be allowed to wear a duster and a head scarf.

And yes agreed school is about learning of chemistry, biology, and math, not your lab partners anatomy, or having hands on lessons in experimental physics.
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Woodrow
04-28-2007, 03:01 AM
There is not a banning of religious symbols, it is the being forced to wear the symbols of another ideology.

Non-religious exhibition is forcing atheistic ideology upon theist believers. Lack of symbols is an ideology itself. To tell a Muslim girl she can not wear a hijab is no different then telling an atheist girl that she must wear a hijab.

We should not have the right, in public places to tell an atheist they must wear the symbols of a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc. In the same manner a religious person should not be told to not wear a religious symbol in a public place.
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guyabano
04-28-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
And yes agreed school is about learning of chemistry, biology, and math, not your lab partners anatomy, or having hands on lessons in experimental physics.
Totally agree !
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-28-2007, 04:44 PM
Theres less distraction at least when I dont have to see someones part of body.
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Muezzin
04-28-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Non-religious exhibition is forcing atheistic ideology upon theist believers. Lack of symbols is an ideology itself. To tell a Muslim girl she can not wear a hijab is no different then telling an atheist girl that she must wear a hijab.
Exactly. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it, proponents of the ban.

Originally Posted by guyabano
And in this link is clearly mentionned : Non-Muslim students at Islamic school forced to wear headscarves
Except that link does nothing to prove your allegation that non-Muslim women in Muslim countries are forced to wear 'veils (or more)'. Please post proof or retract the allegation.
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AvarAllahNoor
04-29-2007, 01:46 AM
No ban thankyou....
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snakelegs
04-29-2007, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
There is not a banning of religious symbols, it is the being forced to wear the symbols of another ideology.

Non-religious exhibition is forcing atheistic ideology upon theist believers. Lack of symbols is an ideology itself. To tell a Muslim girl she can not wear a hijab is no different then telling an atheist girl that she must wear a hijab.

We should not have the right, in public places to tell an atheist they must wear the symbols of a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc. In the same manner a religious person should not be told to not wear a religious symbol in a public place.
i agree. guyabano said it is happening in the u.s. now too - this banning. is that true? i hope not. i don't see how any rational person can feel threatened by people wearing what their religion requires of them to wear.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-29-2007, 04:43 AM
Ermm as far as I know, everything is fine where I live. But if it is soon to be enforced, you can count on me not to remove it :D I'm sorry but I won't break and reduce my dignity for a silly rule.

Peace
Reply

siFilam
04-29-2007, 04:53 AM
In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:

Originally Posted by Jazzy
Ermm as far as I know, everything is fine where I live. But if it is soon to be enforced, you can count on me not to remove it :D I'm sorry but I won't break and reduce my dignity for a silly rule.

Peace
yeah, same in my area. everything is fine, Alhamdulilah.
banning religious symbols while oppressing freedom to express one's religion without harming others is not "civilized" or "democratic". same goes for trying to spread democracy in other parts of the world. In fact, its oppression and dictatorship. it does very little to help any society.


wasalam
-SI-
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snakelegs
04-29-2007, 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Ermm as far as I know, everything is fine where I live. But if it is soon to be enforced, you can count on me not to remove it :D I'm sorry but I won't break and reduce my dignity for a silly rule.

Peace
:thumbs_up
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Woodrow
04-29-2007, 06:24 AM
No word of any bans in Texas
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vpb
04-29-2007, 06:35 AM
Gyabano, Islam is not a religion, it's a deen. There is difference between religion and deen.
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SirZubair
04-29-2007, 06:55 AM
I think there was a case in NZ... some lady got laid off work because she refused to take her 'cross necklace' off.:?
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Malaikah
04-29-2007, 07:08 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I did. Here we go !
There is nothing wrong with that. The school is a Muslim school and Muslims have a dress code. It is immoral to for women not to cover up. It has nothing to do with forcing ones religion on to someone else. They want to maintain a a proper Islamic environment, and they have every right to make hijab part of the school uniform which applies to all student.

If a person is so intent on going to a Muslim school, the least they can do is respect their moral standards.

And hijab is not a symbol either, so it is very different to Christians forcing non-Christians to wear a cross, for example. The cross is symbol, the hijab is clothing that covers the body.

Just like you wouldn't be allowed to rock up naked to a state school, don't expect that it will be okay to dress immodestly in a Muslim school.
Reply

Muezzin
04-29-2007, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
I think there was a case in NZ... some lady got laid off work because she refused to take her 'cross necklace' off.:?
Have you got a link to that by any chance? Stuff like that is why a ban is absurd.
Reply

SirZubair
04-29-2007, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Have you got a link to that by any chance? Stuff like that is why a ban is absurd.
unfortunetly, no i don't.

like i said, i THINK it happened in NZ.
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guyabano
04-30-2007, 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by vpb
Gyabano, Islam is not a religion, it's a deen. There is difference between religion and deen.
Because it is your dogma, that why. From my neutral point of view, Islam is nothing more worth than Buddism, Taoism, Christianisim or whatever Religions.
There is no 'superior' Religion on this planet !
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guyabano
04-30-2007, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
And hijab is not a symbol either, so it is very different to Christians forcing non-Christians to wear a cross, for example. The cross is symbol, the hijab is clothing that covers the body.

Just like you wouldn't be allowed to rock up naked to a state school, don't expect that it will be okay to dress immodestly in a Muslim school.
Wrong ! It is very well a symbol of Religion, of Islam. You are certainly NOT naked, when you wear no hijab. That is purely silly !
At least call it a personal choice that you like to wear it.
So a christian could also say 'When I don't wear a cross, I feel naked' This is simply nonsense !
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snakelegs
04-30-2007, 07:18 AM
the analogy is wrong. yes, the cross is a religous symbol, but christians do not believe that it is required by their religion to wear crosses.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-30-2007, 05:48 PM
^^Thats right. The Hijab is part of our hayaa i.e. shyness. Is it our fault if others think one is not naked? The level of modesty according to the Western standards is very low. You dont wear the hijab guyabano, so i highly doubt u'd know how it feels to go out without it. So it really doesnt matter what analogy u use, because for us its a requirement, like snakelegs mentioned. People like you think its a symbol because:

1. You don't wear it.
2. Your not a Muslim woman.
3. People like you don't care.

I would appreciate if you didnt represent for us, when you dont have a seed of a clue how it is to wear the hijab.
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yussufmo
04-30-2007, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well I accept your opinion, but still, I rejoyce the fact, that religious symbols, like crosses, kippas, hijabs, or whatever else symbols of religions are beeing banned in schools across Europe and USA.
Sad to say, but young people are the most vulnerable to develop hatred in early age, so don't give them simply a trigger for that.
In a school, you go to learn science, mathematics, chemistry, or whatever. Your religion, you can practicise outside in a house of your god, a church, mosque...
When a western woman like to study in an University in an muslim country, she must also wear a veil (or even more) accourding islam wheter she like it or not.
But when a muslim woman want to study here in a typical christian country, then is always a national disaster, when she cannot do it the way SHE like, but refuse to adopt the culture of the guest-country

FIRSTLY I MUST SAY ASLAMU ALKUM TO YOU ALL AND SECONDLY SORRI ABOUT CAPZ ITS LOCKED ON IT IM NOT SHOUTING :)

NOW TELL ME HOW IS BANNING RELIGIOUS ITEMS GOING TO HELP ANYONE? NOT BEING FUNNY BUT I SWEAR ONE OF OUR RIGHTS IS FREEDOM TO EXPRESS OURSELFS RIGHT? FREEDOM OF SPEACH? ISINT THAT BREAKING THE HUMAN RIGHTS?

THIS IS A START OF THE LONG PROCESS THE GOVERMENT HAS GOT IN MIND FIRST IS HEADSCARFS NEXT IT WILL BE THERE ARE TOO MANY MOSQUE OPEN IN THIS AREA WE MUST SHUT SOME DOWN? THEN FINALY WE DONT WANT MUSLIMS IN OUR COUNTRY IS RIDICLOUS..

I WAS UPSET THAT FRANCE BANNED THEM BUT THE UK AND AMERCIA IS JUST LOW.. THEY TALK ABOUT MUSLIM WOMEN BEING TREATED UNFAIRLY IN ISLAMIC STATES AND NOW LOOK WHAT THEY ARE SAYING!!
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yussufmo
04-30-2007, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Because it is your dogma, that why. From my neutral point of view, Islam is nothing more worth than Buddism, Taoism, Christianisim or whatever Religions.
There is no 'superior' Religion on this planet !
TELL ME THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE REST OF THE RELIGIOUN? ISLAM IS THE ONLY DEEN NOT TO HAVE CHANGED SINCE IT HAS BEGAN ALL THE OTHER RELIGIOUN HAS ALTERTED THEIR "HOLY" BOOK
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جوري
04-30-2007, 06:23 PM
Freedom of religion /not from religion (a supposed fundamental human right in western societies) need I say more? What is with the sweeping hypocrisy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion
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Woodrow
04-30-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Freedom of religion /not from religion (a supposed fundamental human right in western societies) need I say more? What is with the sweeping hypocrisy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion
You summed it up. The concept of freedom of religion was changed to freedom from religion. Right now it is rapidly moving to elimination of religion.

The words "Freedom of Religion" stay the same, only the meaning changes. At our present day trends, the next step will be to make religion Illegal.
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