Is poker Haraam if...

[MaNi]

its not played wiht any cash etc?

If its just played with the chips, no cash involved between friends - is it haraam?

is it the gambling aspect of it that makes it haraam or is there another reason?

[E'jaazi]

Ruling on playing cards without gambling


Question:

Why is playing cards – I mean only playing, without gambling – counted as haraam? We are not playing for money

Answer:


Praise be to Allaah.

The Standing Committee was asked about playing cards if that does not distract people from prayer and there is no money involved. They answered:

Playing cards is not permitted, even if there is no money involved, because the problem with that is that it distracts people from remembering Allaah (dhikr) and from prayer. Even if they claim that this is not the case, then it is still a means that may lead to gambling which is expressly forbidden in the Qur’aan. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), and gambling, and Al-Ansaab (stone altars for sacrifices to false gods) and Al-Azlaam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaytaan’s (Satan’s) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful”

[al-Maa’idah 5:90]

These cards have an effect on society, for the bonds of a strong society are achieved by means of two things: following the commands of Allaah and heeding His prohibitions. A society disintegrates when it neglects any of those duties or does any of those things that are forbidden. These cards form one of the factors which have an effect on society. They cause people to neglect prayer in congregation, and they generate alienation, breaking of ties, hatred and negligence through the committing of haraam actions, and they make people too lazy to earn a living.

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 4/436

With regard to the history of these playing cards: No one really knows who invented playing cards or when or where they were invented. It has been said that they are of Chinese or Indian origin, or otherwise. But historians are agreed that they came to Europe from the Middle East in the latter part of the Middle Ages. Experts also say that there is agreement that playing cards have clearly evolved from that time until now.

Playing cards made their first appearance in Europe in Andalusia, and were brought to northern Spain in the eleventh century CE.

The traditional deck of cards in Spain consisted of 40 cards, including the numbers 1 to 7, plus three characters, the highest of which was the “ruler”, followed by the “deputy”, then the “scribe” or “knight.”

In the sixteenth century, the French changed the cards, replacing the “ruler” with the king, the “deputy” with the queen, and the “knight” with the jack. They also added three new numbers, so that the deck now consisted of 52 cards. In the seventeenth century, the Germans added a fourth character, the joker.

We have quoted above the fatwa on playing with these cards. It may also be added that playing cards is devoid of any of the goals of recreational activities as required in Islam; it does not teach any skill that is needed for jihad or any useful knowledge or bring any social benefit or relaxation that will calm the nerves. Rather it is a game that has nothing good in it; it causes arguments and simply kills time. It is based on speculation and chance, and it is like playing with dice, in that it leads to disputes and fighting, and it is like alcohol and gambling.

Based on the above, it would not be farfetched to suggest that it is haraam rather than makrooh, by analogy with dice, because both are based on chance and both lead to arguments.

The same view was favoured by Shaykh Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, and it is the view of our contemporary scholars, and of Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen among the fuqaha’ of al-Najd, who transmitted it from his shaykhs. This is based on the fact that it leads to enmity and hatred, and because it is a great waste of time and it distracts people from remembering Allaah (dhikr) and keeps them from worshipping and obeying Him.

This view is further supported by the fact that one of the French kings issued orders banning people from playing cards during the day, and stating that everyone who went against this order was to be arrested and punished. That was because the French people loved playing cards too much, to such an extent that they were neglecting their work in order to play cards. The punishment dictated by this French king was not just a brief imprisonment, he also added a severe beating as a deterrent to others.

Yet despite these decrees and others, he did not succeed in uprooting the habit of playing cards; the only result was that the people started to play in secret rather than openly.

From Qadaaya al-Lahw wa’l-Tarfeeh by Maadoon Rasheed, p. 185-187.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

[SirZubair]

Q : Is playing card games permissible provided there is no gambling involved?




A: Wa alaikum salaam,

No. This will not be permissible, even if played without the element of gambling. The nature of the game entails a general ruling of being prohibitively disliked.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“From the beauty of one’s Islam is to leave things that have no benefit in them”.(Sunan Tirmizi & Sunan Ibn Majah).

Islam severely disapproves of forms of amusement and acts which are completely devoid of worldly or other-worldly benefit.

And Allah alone gives success. Also view the link below.

Yusuf Mullan

Q : There have been some posts on this net concerning the impermissibility of playing chess or cards. I don’t have any problems with these rulings and have heard them before but the reasoning given kind of troubled me. It was basically said that (please correct if I am wrong) they are haram since they are waste of time. It seems as though many things we commonly do can be considered a waste of times but not necessarily haram such as watching a sports match, browsing the internet, sleeping. So would these be activities be haram as well then or so there some other specific reason or proof for cards and chess being impermissible. For example on the Shafii net concerning chess it says: As Imam Nawawi mentions in his Minhaj al-Talibin, playing chess is detestable (makruh) (al-Siraj al-Wahhaj, 580 (Dar al-Kutub al-`Ilmiyyah)), meaning that you are not punished for doing it and you are rewarded for avoiding it. Concerning cards it says So the questioner should look at the basis and starting point of playing cards. If it is based on conjecture and guessing, it is haram, if not, then it isn't...I don’t ask this question to reject the rulings given in any way but rather to understand the reasoning behind it better.

A : Wa alaikum salaam wa rahmatullah,


The basis of the prohibition is the saying of Allah’s Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him:


“Whosoever plays with backgammon is as though he dipped his hands in the flesh and blood of a swine”. (Sahih Muslim, No. 2260).


If one looks towards the relevant sayings of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), one may classify games into three categories:


Those that have been clearly and explicitly prohibited, such as backgammon in the above quoted Hadith. Those that have been clearly permitted or encouraged, such as archery. Games that have no clear mention in the primary texts of Hadith.

The scholars mention that this third category of games will be assessed based on how engrossed individuals become when engaged in them. If it is to the point where normally one neglects one’s worldly and other worldly obligations, particularly the prayer, the ruling of category 1 will apply and the game will be deemed prohibitively disliked. In such cases the ruling will be that of general impermissibility based on the inevitable nature of the game. Therefore, even when one takes all precautions to not neglect religious and other worldly obligations, the game will still be impermissible to play, since the established Fiqhi principle states “the inevitable is considered actual”.


If engrossment is not to this degree (and the game has not been prohibited by primary text), then subject to strict conditions, playing it would be permissible, such as many sports which are essentially permissible e.g. hockey and football.


As for chess, according to the Hanafi scholars it falls under the first category based on the few narrations reported concerning its prohibition.


[Ahkam al-Quran, Mufti Mohammad Shafi]



And Allah alone gives success.


Yusuf Mullan

I won't bother posting the link, 'cos it wont work :)

Anyway, i hope this helps.

[~ Sabr ~]

So now even playing a game is prohibited? Like Ludo and Snakes & Ladders? Come on people. This is where "extremism" comes in. Please don't make Islaam to look so STRICT when it is so EASY.

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[BadOlPuttyTat]

My family comes from a long line of card players and gamblers but we come from smart gamblers meaning no family member of mine has lost money from gambling. Also i just bought a deck of cards not long ago and i intend on using them. I do not gamble nor does anyone in my intermediate family. I play with my sister for giggles and laughs (i am very good and always win). Playing cards is fine although i understand people have the urge to gamble but you must be aware if nobody likes to gamble and your playing cards with them no matter how strong your urge is you cant gamble. Gambling consist of the willing unlike alcohol or drugs which consist of the non willing. Big difference from playing cards and gambling, and another thing is i dont know how to play poker or gamble in cards :p.

[dqsunday]

My family comes from a long line of card players and gamblers but we come from smart gamblers meaning no family member of mine has lost money from gambling. Also i just bought a deck of cards not long ago and i intend on using them. I do not gamble nor does anyone in my intermediate family. I play with my sister for giggles and laughs (i am very good and always win). Playing cards is fine although i understand people have the urge to gamble but you must be aware if nobody likes to gamble and your playing cards with them no matter how strong your urge is you cant gamble. Gambling consist of the willing unlike alcohol or drugs which consist of the non willing. Big difference from playing cards and gambling, and another thing is i dont know how to play poker or gamble in cards :p.

There are a few things i have to disagree with here. One, there is always a loss of money when gambling with money. My folks go to the casinos and gamble but they are wise gambler, only going for penny or nickle slot machines, never spending more than a fix among of money. They do win time to time but more often than not, they do lose. They just have enough control over themselves they don't over spend their money. Many people can't help themselves and add more money into the machine, or bet more, play another hand etc till they are absolutely broke. All gambling, especially the non card based games, is designed to make money for the 'House' not the player. Poker etc at least has better odds and is played more against the bluff of your opposing players. But again, can be very addictive.

I am also totally perplexed with

Gambling consist of the willing unlike alcohol or drugs which consist of the non willing

People drink and take drugs just as willingly as they gamble. Gambling is also considered just as much an addiction as drinking or drugs.

Given the information provided in earlier responses to this thread, I would definitely say all forms of gambling is a no no in Islam. Games that are not used for gambling purposes and don't totally take one's attention to play (ie Video games are not gambling but they waste more time than any other game I have ever heard of...especially MMORPGs.) in my own personal view (till I learn otherwise that is) are alright. If a set start and end time is established so other obligations aren't missed. Games like crazy eights, snakes and ladders, etc. Educational games would be best with young kids.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

There are a few things i have to disagree with here. One, there is always a loss of money when gambling with money.

My family plays cards at casino's, and they always win. They win more then they loose and my uncles have won quite alot of money from it but quit when they are ahead.

People drink and take drugs just as willingly as they gamble. Gambling is also considered just as much an addiction as drinking or drugs.

When i say unwilling i dont mean the choice. When you take drugs your a unwilling victim because you can do nothing to stop getting high, the minute you take a drug your high and cant quite. With gambling you cant gamble unless someone else is willing and when you start gambling you can quit unlike drugs. I am a STRONG video game play and although i dislike MMO's i player 300 hour long RPG's. Most kids in Japan and China do this and yet have the highest grade scores like myself. I take care of a annoying mother, a baby, have time to watch tv, salat, cram 3-4 hours of video games (not all at once), do homework and test, and get online all within a day. I am a VERY organized person and I am a master of time. I a very obsessive about rules and scheduling to the point its just instinctive. Today as i have been spending more time perfecting salah i may not be able to play my recommended 3-4 of video games, i go under high stress if i dont do anything that requires brain power. I read 350 words a minute, very good at science and maths, and computer technical skills that video games are the only thing that actually requires me to use any brain power to enjoy myself. Although it depend son the time of game (usually a RPG since they are all calculated by rations, percentages and various other calculating skills)

[dqsunday]

Gambling at cards does have better odds of winning than the more 'random' versions. However there are many forms of gambling that don't require other people, such as lotto tickets or scratch and wins. Pretty much anything that gives a prize if you play can be gambling.

As for organizing your time to the last minute, that is a good skill etc but in truth, how many hours a day outside of prayer, are you being 'mindful' of Allah? He does want us to be aware of him all the time and by being aware of him, this helps us not to stray and commit sins. Other than that I don't see to much wrong in your daily routine. A few hours of video games in short segments while ensuring all other household duties are done (caring for your mother is a very good thing to do, though may be best to try and be patient with her. I know mothers can be difficult, breaking mine into the idea I embraced Islam is a slow and laborious process but Inshallah she will accept this is a good thing for me.)

One advantage I can see you having, Brother ShadowsanDust (interesting name by the way) is the focus of your brain. I expect if you dedicate a few hours a day you can easily memorize the Qur'an, something you could always schedule to do during Ramadan. Myself I doubt I can memorize the English translation of the Qur'an in such a short period. A few short surahs or a medium length one perhaps, but the entire Qur'an...that will take awhile. At least I know I do have the first one memorized in English and a couple of the really short ones, as they are in the prayers I do 5 times a day.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Gambling at cards does have better odds of winning than the more 'random' versions. However there are many forms of gambling that don't require other people, such as lotto tickets or scratch and wins. Pretty much anything that gives a prize if you play can be gambling.

As for organizing your time to the last minute, that is a good skill etc but in truth, how many hours a day outside of prayer, are you being 'mindful' of Allah? He does want us to be aware of him all the time and by being aware of him, this helps us not to stray and commit sins. Other than that I don't see to much wrong in your daily routine. A few hours of video games in short segments while ensuring all other household duties are done (caring for your mother is a very good thing to do, though may be best to try and be patient with her. I know mothers can be difficult, breaking mine into the idea I embraced Islam is a slow and laborious process but Inshallah she will accept this is a good thing for me.)

One advantage I can see you having, Brother ShadowsanDust (interesting name by the way) is the focus of your brain. I expect if you dedicate a few hours a day you can easily memorize the Qur'an, something you could always schedule to do during Ramadan. Myself I doubt I can memorize the English translation of the Qur'an in such a short period. A few short surahs or a medium length one perhaps, but the entire Qur'an...that will take awhile. At least I know I do have the first one memorized in English and a couple of the really short ones, as they are in the prayers I do 5 times a day.

Lol my mother is actually a very childish person with a bad attitude that drives everyone away from her, including her deceased husband(my stepfather). This is a woman who didnt know the earth was round and will become hostile if you say anything with remote truth, i have patience but i just ignore her irrational behavior. I love her regardless but she just has the mindset of a child. How many times a day do i think of Allah? Roughly 6 hours actually of my day do i think of Allah, its the only constant thought i have :p, the rest of my thoughts are random and sporadic. As for the Quran i actually read 1 and a half surah a day although i havent read any in 3 days because my sister isnt going to school for some holiday and it through my routine off. I dont adjust to involuntary changes that well and i get very aggravated if i sense a sudden or needless change in my life. I am very compulsive and most of my siblings (if not all) find me weird and "machine like" do to my literal attitude and lack of open emotions. I laugh without opening my mouth, i can be angry yet laying down, i can be happy yet never smile. Having a sadistic personality disorder males me odd but who cares :statisfie

[dqsunday]

I suspected you may have something like that. There is nothing wrong with liking an ordered and structured life. Most people don't like change, especially sudden change. I like my routines though I could use more organizational skills. I get lazy though Islam has at least put me on a regular schedule for prayer, which I am doing good on following. Right now I am able to arrange my life around prayer times...but living with my folks and my brother does make it challenging. My brother's room is right below mind and the floorboards all creek. I don't hear it on my end but its quite noticeable from his side. That and he tends to sleep around Asr prayer or the later one. So I have to be really careful in how much I move while praying as he gets annoyed and starts cursing which really distracts me. Fortunately he is likely to go to the camp soon for the summer which will eliminate that distraction from my prayer times.

As for your issue with sudden change, best way to cope is to take it as a challenge..to reestablish 'order' to the sudden chaos. In a polite way of course, Islam does tell us to be patient and just. You could always tell your sister about Islam and why you found it was the best thing for you to embrace.

You may be able to win your mother over to Islam too, if her thinking is rather simple and child like, the 'rightness' of Islam may appeal to her far more than anything else. I do believe children accept the fact there is a God far easier than adults. (I could be wrong, I am no expert in this matter LOL )

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Actually i intend on telling my sister as she is a goofy idiot (in a good playful way). Issue is she is SUPER MESSY AND UNORGANIZED! She is my counter opposite, has no structure and is rather un-religious. My mother is very naive regarding religion though and i would find it more likely but its her pathetic anger that bothers me, she is the first to throw a punch because I said "The Grammy's only award music not books". But i have actually memorized all the salat in english and Arabic ;D took one hour. I am that good with language, i cant help but be proud about it :statisfie. I am very good with people as i hang around others and i avoid them and have learned one thing...people are very gullible and not to insult people but it heavily relies upon ethnicity and their gender. I dislike persuading people to believe in things because my voice is brainwashing and its a main reason i always did speaker announcements (at 4 different schools). Issue is that a person will believe in me but not believe in Islam, meaning they are not a true Muslim. I dont intend on being manipulative but its who I am :'(, life is dull when you can make a person believe anything :hmm:

[dqsunday]

Hmm maybe you should run for President ;)

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Hmm maybe you should run for President ;)

GREAT IDEA. Presidents are the greatest liar. I like Bill Clinton especially, he made the biggest economic increase in US history and had the LARGEST surplus of over 300 billion USD. But above all that he was a extremely good liar. Lied his way out of so many unfaithful sexual escapades that to this day i dont understand how he lied his way out of them. BIll Clinto is a fine president and above all else a fantastic liar :p,have to give him credit. He has the morals of a heathen, lying tongue of a snake yet compassion like a mother and leadership of a general. Odd combination he is, but i bet every time a kid lies to his parents he should think "what would Clinton do?". :statisfie. I am still clueless as to how Clinton is still married to this day to Hillary with his "Wandering Eye".

[mudaber]

Poker is not haram if you play without betting or cash

[Ali1978]

If there is doubt, its always best to leave it...

[Kei]

I don't see anything wrong with poker as long as you're not able to lose/gain anything from it.
A word of warning though....be careful. I know a few people who started playing with toothpicks, then they were like "Hey...I'm awesome at this... :coolious:, if I played a real game with cash I could earn mega bucks." And so they play intending to only play once...but then they keep playing, and bit by bit it becomes an addiction.
In short: if you're easily drawn to temptation, stay away from it. :)

[Ramadan90]

Why waste your time on playing poker though?

[Kei]

Why waste your time on playing poker though?

The same reason we watch football, play video games, etc etc. Enjoyment. :)
While not the best use of our time, no one can spend every minute of their time doing something useful.
We have to remember that having fun isn't forbidden.

[DippedinJannah]

I sincerely doubt you can play poker without something of value (typically money) at stake. You can go through the routine of comparing hands, etc., but the core of poker is a psychological war of determining how your opponent behaves under stress. Put another way - without something of value on the line, there isn't much of a game.

There are better games. And some physical activity that gets your heart rate up is always better.