Ezekiel's failed Prophecy Against Egypt

[back_to_faith]

In a four-chapter tirade against Egypt, Ezekiel said that Yahweh would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt as "wages" for the labor he had expended on Tyre in an unsuccessful siege (29:19-20). The devastation of Egypt was to be complete. The land would be an "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south). So thorough would the devastation be that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians scattered among the nations (29:9-12). At the end of the 40 years, Yahweh would gather the Egyptians back to their country from where they had been scattered, but Egypt would forever be "the lowliest of kingdoms" (v: 15). It would never "exalt itself above the nations" and would not "rule over the nations anymore" (v:15).


Ezekiel

29:1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth day of the month, 1 the word of the Lord came to me: 29:2 “Son of man, turn toward 2 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him and against all Egypt. 29:3 Tell them, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says:
“‘Look, I am against 3 you, Pharaoh king of Egypt,
the great monster 4 lying in the midst of its waterways,
who has said, “My Nile is my own, I made it for myself.” 5
29:4 I will put hooks in your jaws
and stick the fish of your waterways to your scales.
I will haul you up from the midst of your waterways,
and all the fish of your waterways will stick to your scales.
29:5 I will leave you in the wilderness,
you and all the fish of your waterways;
you will fall in the open field and will not be gathered up or collected. 6
I have given you as food to the beasts of the earth and the birds of the skies.
29:6 Then all those living in Egypt will know that I am the Lord
because they were a reed staff 7 for the house of Israel;
29:7 when they grasped you with their hand, 8 you broke and tore 9 their shoulders,and when they leaned on you, you splintered and caused their legs to be unsteady. 10
29:8 “‘Therefore, this is what the sovereign Lord says: Look, I am about to bring a sword against you, and I will kill 11 every person and every animal. 29:9 The land of Egypt will become a desolate ruin. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
Because he said, “The Nile is mine and I made it,” 29:10 I am against 12 you and your waterways. I will turn the land of Egypt into an utter desolate ruin from Migdol 13 to Syene, 14 as far as the border with Ethiopia. 29:11 No human foot will pass through it, and no animal’s foot will pass through it; it will be uninhabited for forty years. 29:12 I will turn the land of Egypt into a desolation in the midst of desolate lands; for forty years her cities will lie desolate in the midst of ruined cities. I will scatter Egypt among the nations and disperse them among foreign countries.

29:13 “‘For this is what the sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years 15 I will gather Egypt from the peoples where they were scattered. 29:14 I will restore the fortunes of Egypt, and will bring them back 16 to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin; there they will be an insignificant kingdom. 29:15 It will be the most insignificant of the kingdoms; it will never again exalt itself over the nations. I will make them so small that they will not rule over the nations. 29:16 It will never again be Israel’s source of confidence, but a reminder of how they sinned by turning to Egypt for help. 17 Then they will know that I am the sovereign Lord.’”


That is clearly a failed ,unfulfilled prophecy:

1-None of this ever happened. There are no historical records of a 40-year period when Egypt was so desolate that neither animals nor humans inhabited it
2-The population of Egypt was never scattered among the nations and then regathered to its homeland.
3-It's political influence has fluctuated through the centuries, but there has never been a time when it could have been considered the "lowliest of kingdoms."

that is a clear clue that the writer(s) of Ezekiel ,being obssesed by the 40 years when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, into the wilderness of Sinai........so in his un-inspired writings he got such 40 year suffering, scattering of the Israeli and tried to use it with his wild imagination to apply it to the Egyptians in a failed imaginary prophecy....

[rav]

Shalom,

I don't see your point. The prophecies of the Messiah coming are just as unfulfilled, although if you wish I will respond in much more depth to your post.

[back_to_faith]

Shalom,

I don't see your point. The prophecies of the Messiah coming are just as unfulfilled, although if you wish I will respond in much more depth to your post.

Salam ,rav

Ofcource the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah coming are just as unfulfilled.

In other words and according to you the Ezekiel's Prophecy Against Egypt is yet to be fulfilled in the future.........exactly the same as The prophecies of the Messiah coming is yet to be fulfilled in the future.....


You and those alike who tries to held the future fulfillment Ignores the text and the historical context of the Ezekiel which is:

The historical setting for that prophecy

1-Yahweh telling Ezekiel to "set [his] face against Pharaoh king of Egypt" and "to prophesy against him" and to say, "Behold I am against you, O Pharaoh, king of Egypt" Ezekiel(29:2-3)

2-the prophecy was very clear in stating that this desolation of Egypt would be done by Nebuchadnezzar, who would be "brought in to destroy the land" and to "fill the land with the slain"

Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, The most ruthless of the nations, Will be brought in to destroy the land; And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain.
Ezekiel(30:10-11).

3-
Yahweh would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt as "wages" for the labor he had expended on Tyre in an unsuccessful siege :

Ezekiel(29:19-20).
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army.


29:10 I am against 12 you and your waterways. I will turn the land of Egypt into an utter desolate ruin from Migdol 13 to Syene, 14 as far as the border with Ethiopia. 29:11 No human foot will pass through it, and no animal’s foot will pass through it; it will be uninhabited for forty years. 29:12 I will turn the land of Egypt into a desolation in the midst of desolate lands; for forty years her cities will lie desolate in the midst of ruined cities. I will scatter Egypt among the nations and disperse them among foreign countries.

29:13 “‘For this is what the sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years 15 I will gather Egypt from the peoples where they were scattered. 29:14 I will restore the fortunes of Egypt, and will bring them back 16 to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin; there they will be an insignificant kingdom. 29:15 It will be the most insignificant of the kingdoms; it will never again exalt itself over the nations. I will make them so small that they will not rule over the nations.


It is crystal clear that the context shows without any reasonable doubt that this prophecy has to be fulfilled Millennia ago ,and by the hands of Nebuchadnezzar............

To claim that such false prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future would be as absured as someone claims that The 70 Year Captivity prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future:


Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: "Because you have not heard My words, behold, I will send and take all the families of the north," says the Lord, "and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jer. 25:8-11).


For thus says the Lord: "After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place." (Jer. 29:10)


in the light of such obvious man-word (unfulfilled prophecy) and many other Old Testament flaws ,on can't help but to give unqualified endorsement to the Quranic claim that the Old Testament has been fabricated in some parts by its writers....


"Do you covet that they will believe in you when [in fact] a party of them used to hear the Word of Allah (the Torah) then they would distort it knowingly after they had understood it?"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Bakarah(2):75



"Then woe to those who write the book (of God) with their own hands and then say: 'This is from Allah', to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to them for what their hands do write and for the gain they make thereby"

The noble Qur'an Al-Bakarah(2):79

[rav]

Shalom,

Before I begin, why not give credit to your source?

I will be back a bit later to respond, however, although I am not sure you would really care, uttering the true name of G-d is a huge sin. You should seriously contemplate avoiding it.

The Talmud says:

"The following have no share in the world to come:... he who speaks out the Holy Name"
(Sanhedrin 90a)

You should avoid typing it at all costs. This is a completely sincere warning to you.

Peace.

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[back_to_faith]

Shalom,

Before I begin, why not give credit to your source?

I will be back a bit later to respond, however, although I am not sure you would really care, uttering the true name of G-d is a huge sin. You should seriously contemplate avoiding it.

The Talmud says:

"The following have no share in the world to come:... he who speaks out the Holy Name"
(Sanhedrin 90a)

You should avoid typing it at all costs. This is a completely sincere warning to you.

Peace.

Salam

Dear.rav

Thank you very much for your advice,but let me ask you which false name one should use for God instead of the true one to avoid such grave sin of uttering his true name?
would like you to pick a false name for God to use in my posts with you ,in order to avoid the grave sin of uttering the true name of God.


It is me who should ask ,why not give credit to your source(Ezekiel)?


peace upon you

[rav]

Salam

Dear.rav

Thank you very much for your advice,but let me ask you which false name one should use for God instead of the true one to avoid such grave sin of uttering his true name?
would like you to pick a false name for God to use in my posts with you ,in order to avoid the grave sin of uttering the true name of God.


It is me who should ask ,why not give credit to your source(Ezekiel)?


peace upon you

Shalom Eleichem (Peace be upon you),

The word we use is "Hashem" which means "the name" in Hebrew, or type G-d however you wish, but that Holy Name should not be use, and I am only writing this for your own sake.

Now to the source, I wished to verify that you were using some of your information from the site "infidels" and the response you posted when I claimed the prophecy had yet to occur was partly in line with the response from that site, so my goal was to learn of your source on the discussion since I had suspicions that you were using that specific site, which I know very well.

Now I would first like to emulate that you or the Islamic site which is using information provided by "infidels" org, are using a secular/atheist site to draw conclusions on a theist volume. If you still desire I will come back later and debunk it. To warn you, I may both become lethargic, and utilize other sites, or in actuality I may lunge into the research myself.

[back_to_faith]

Shalom Eleichem (Peace be upon you),

The word we use is "Hashem" which means "the name" in Hebrew, or type G-d however you wish, but that Holy Name should not be use, and I am only writing this for your own sake.

Now to the source, I wished to verify that you were using some of your information from the site "infidels" and the response you posted when I claimed the prophecy had yet to occur was partly in line with the response from that site, so my goal was to learn of your source on the discussion since I had suspicions that you were using that specific site, which I know very well.

Now I would first like to emulate that you or the Islamic site which is using information provided by "infidels" org, are using a secular/atheist site to draw conclusions on a theist volume. If you still desire I will come back later and debunk it. To warn you, I may both become lethargic, and utilize other sites, or in actuality I may lunge into the research myself.

Shalom Eleichem
Dear rav

first:from now and on I will use the word (Hashem) for your own sake.

second:the accuse that Muslims use atheist opinions,sites etc.....shows nothing but a laziness and a kind of a refrain from answering the arguments ......
the prophecy under discussion,It doesn't need a scientific discovery nor a genieus writing from atheists or others to understand its failure...

The criticism of Ezekiel prophecy ,neither began by me nor by the infidels.org ,it is old one


To warn you, I may both become lethargic, and utilize other sites, or in actuality I may lunge into the research myself.

and I would be really happy if you utilize other sites without giving them the credit as long as their argument not unique nor has been repeated several times by several critics......and hope you get us straight to the topic under discussion ,in order for me not to think that you use the tactic of shifting the topic in order to refrain from answering.

and peace for you

[ManchesterFolk]

I do not wish to impose of course, but since Rav may actually have a life, to sit here and let him go into actually researching is going to take time on his part. What many people do not understand is the overall nature of the language in the Bible. Metaphors are used often.

Why could this not be a prophecy of the future?

The word "Nebachanezzar" has never refered to one man. The Babylonian empire may refer to Iraq, or it may be created again according to this prophecy! Could it not be refering to someone like the king of iraq conquering?

-the prophecy was very clear in stating that this desolation of Egypt would be done by Nebuchadnezzar, who would be "brought in to destroy the land" and to "fill the land with the slain"

Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, The most ruthless of the nations, Will be brought in to destroy the land; And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain.
Ezekiel(30:10-11).

Tne Bibles figurative language can be drawn to many conclusions. Who knows what will be done to Egypt in the future.

[ManchesterFolk]

An interesting article which I of course I am not a believer in, but nevertheless, it is interesting:

http://www.triumphpro.com/egypt_in_prophecy!.htm

[back_to_faith]

I do not wish to impose of course, but since Rav may actually have a life, to sit here and let him go into actually researching is going to take time on his part. What many people do not understand is the overall nature of the language in the Bible. Metaphors are used often.

Why could this not be a prophecy of the future?

The word "Nebachanezzar" has never refered to one man. The Babylonian empire may refer to Iraq, or it may be created again according to this prophecy! Could it not be refering to someone like the king of iraq conquering?



Tne Bibles figurative language can be drawn to many conclusions. Who knows what will be done to Egypt in the future.

Well,

The use of figurative language could be with anything but Ezekiel
29:8

You ask 1- Why could this not be a prophecy of the future?
2-Why couldn't Nebuchadrezzar refer to someone else in the future as for example(Saddam Hussein)and not Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon?
3-Just why don't we use the metaphoric language?

as a matter of fact the context of Ezekiel leaves no room for us to play the Symbolic game:

first of all who is the Nebuchadrezzar mentioned in Ezekiel?


Ezekiel 26:7
"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.


Ezekiel 29:18
"Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre.


The same Nebuchadnezzar II who sieged Tyre ,Ezekiel prophesied that he would destroy Egypt and leave it utterly desolate.

Ezekiel 29:19
Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army.


compare that with the following:


Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: "Because you have not heard My words, behold, I will send and take all the families of the north," says the Lord, "and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jer. 25:8-11).


For thus says the Lord: "After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place." (Jer. 29:10)


the application of Metaphors or figurative language to Ezekiel's prophecey against Egypt would be as absured as one tries to apply it to The 70 Year Captivity prophecy in Jeremiah


If you are going to keep going back to the figurative language,Manchester, you'd do well to first make sure you're going to gain thereby.

[ManchesterFolk]

I'm sorry but it says:

Ezekiel 29:19
Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army.

So how exactly does this connect to the other tellings of Nebachadnezzar?Does it directly say that this Nechadnezzar who conquers Egypt is the same as the one who conquered Tyre?

It says:

8Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee.

9And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.

10Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia.

11No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.

12And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

13Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:

14And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.

15It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.

16And it shall be no more the confidence of the house of Israel, which bringeth their iniquity to remembrance, when they shall look after them: but they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

_______________________

Is this the same prophecy continued???? Are the dates the same?

17And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:

19Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.


How do we know that this is not completly different in the first place than from the other prophcy above the divider line? They first may be two seperate prophecies! Did Babylon not enslave many Egyptians during wars and did babylon never conquer egypt like in 605 BC?

Of couse I am not an expert by any means, just exploring the meaning in much more depth. I also find it odd that you use as a resource a site that has anti-islamic material! Dont get me wrong, I love that site, smart guys, very pro-secular which is what our world needs.

[ManchesterFolk]

" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will bring a sword against you and kill your men and their animals. Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations andscatter them through the countries.

" 'Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom."

Commenters have used this passage as "proof" that Bible prophecy is not accurate and challenged me to disagree with them evidentially.


Prophecy and visions in the Bible

First, it is important to understand how prophecy works in the Bible. God would use poetic language full of figures of speech when making prophetic utterances. For instance, when God declares that stars will fall to the earth, we know quite well that just one star would burn the earth to a crisp before it ever managed to "fall" on us. I also mentioned that God doesn't actually "walk" on the "wings of the wind", but rather this is poetic language. We use such language ourselves: my heart is breaking (no, it's not) or, I would move heaven and earth (you'd do good moving a 200 pound boulder, dude!).

Such language is not just used in the Old Testament, but also in the prophetic portions of the New Testament such as Revelation:

Revelation 6:14 - "Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. "

Like so often happens in prophecies, they come to the writer in the form of a symbolic vision, just as this passage in Revelation, in which John is relating a vision given him while on the Isle of Patmos. The reader is to understand that the sky isn't going to actually roll up, etc. but that this rather symbolizes a complete upheaval and drastic change. Reading the entire book of Revelation reveals the nature of the changes and the who, what, when, where, why and hows of it all.

(The Bible devotes an entire chapter to the interpretation of two specific prophetic dreams, in Genesis chapter forty. Joseph listens as the head butler and baker to the pharoah relate troubling, prophetic dreams and then interprets them.)

The Book of Ezekiel begins with the author describing the beginning of a vision given him by God. The reader then understands that the language will be poetic and often the vision will be symbolic in nature. Yet the meanings are quite clear when you read Ezekiel 29. Egypt's Pharaoh is going to be conquered and the land emptied.

History - the stories begin to fade away

Second, as they always say, history is written by the victor. It is also true that the farther away we get from an event, the more our history becomes a form of shorthand. This is also why people were dogmatically declaring that Egypt was not conquered and made uninhabitable and that the Bible was obviously wrong, because modern historians have paid little or no attention to the event that took place in approximately 571 BC. But reliable historical documentation certainly exists and we will now go there.

The Annals of the World

James Ussher finished this massive volume in 1658 (English version. The Latin version was produced 1650-4.) He had at his disposal myriad sources. The publisher now says of this work:

"Considered not only a classic work of literature, but also esteemed for its preciseness and accuracy, The Annals of the World has not been published in the English language since the 17th century. Almost completely inaccessible to the public for 300 years, this book is a virtual historical encyclopedia with information and footnotes to history that otherwise would have been lost forever. Covering history from the beginning through the first century A.D., Ussher relates both famous accounts and little known events in the lives of the famous and infamous including pharaohs, Caesars, kings, conquerors, thieves, pirates, and murderers. He tells of the rise and fall of great and not-so-great nations and gives accounts of the events that shaped the world. (960 pages - hardbound)"

(Larry Pierce, and Marion Pierce presided over the 2003-4 revision and re-release into English of this tome. They had help, but I have to say that this was a staggering undertaking and I remain in awe of their dedication!)

Ussher combed through the historical accounts of Josephus, Herodotus, Xenophon, Plutarch and hundreds of others, his bibliography being a veritable hall of fame of historians now passed. He researched in order to produce the best possible dates for the events listed. Yes, he did use the Bible as one of his sources and to this day archaeologists use the Bible in their research, as a handbook to help find ruins and identify newly discovered cultures. Ussher included over twelve thousand footnotes and over two thousand quotes from the Bible and Apocrypha as part of his work.

In any event, here is what Ussher says about this portion of Ezekiel, noting that Jeremiah made a similar prophecy concerning the same coming event:

3433 AM, 4143 JP, 571 BC

"(reference number 881) After Nebuchadnezzar conquered Egypt from Syrene to the very ends of the land, he made havock of the Egyptians and of the Jews who lived there. Some he killed and the rest he led away into captivity, in accordance with Jeremiah's prophecies. (Jer 43:1-44:30 46:1-28 Eze 29 1-31:18)

Pharoahhophra, or Apries, was forced to retreat into the country of Thebes. It seems that Nebuchadnezzar made Amasis his viceroy over all Egypt. Though Herodotus did not know of this, Scaliger observed in his notes Ad Fragmenta:

"The priests of Egypt told Herodotus of such things as he desired to know. They spoke only of things that glorified their country, but concealed the rest. This showed their cowardice and slavery, by concealing the payment of tribute they made to the Chaldeans."

Thus was the first portion of the prophecy fulfilled. The Babylonians conquered the land and either killed or took captive all the inhabitants. It was typical, not just of Nebuchadnezzar, but of many of the empires of this time frame that, when conquering a land, they would empty it of people and domesticated animals. Many would be killed and many taken into captivity as slaves or, in the case of the best candidates, trained and groomed to be assimilated into the victor's society. This is what happened to Daniel, by the way, who was taken as a youth to become part of the Court and eventually came to be the right hand man of the King himself, a defacto ruler over all of the empire. But that's another subject.

For now, we then go forward forty years in the Annals and find this entry:

3473 AM, 4183 JP, 531 BC

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26) (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.8. c.8.s.1.6:439) Xenophon, in the prologue to his whole work, stated that Cyrus had Egypt in his possession, (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.1.c.1.s.4.5:7) while all authors agree that it was later subdued by his son Cambyses. Hence, we conclude that in the intervening time they enjoyed their freedom."

Thus, Ussher records the forty year exile did take place, as predicted in both Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Forty years would be a pretty average lifespan for people of this time so that, when a nation would take another into captivity for forty or more years they would be putting a practical end to the government and leaders of that nation. Peoples taken into captivity in such a manner would later return having been stamped with the culture of their captors. Egyptians would go on being Egyptians, but with a great deal of Babylonian influences and the loss of a tremendous amount of historical documentation of their culture and times.

The Jews were unique in that they were so dedicated to the preservation of their scriptures, genealogies and culture that even being taken into captivity on more than one occasion was not enough to significantly alter their inherent "Jewishness" or obliterate the scriptures.

I assert that the prophetic predictions of Ezekiel concerning Egypt did in fact occur and that the Bible did predict what was going to happen and for how long.link

[back_to_faith]

An interesting article which I of course I am not a believer in, but nevertheless, it is interesting:

http://www.triumphpro.com/egypt_in_prophecy!.htm

If there is something interesting in such article ,it would be the great deal of inconsistency,false assertions therein


first

He argues that :

Egypt is not now the "basest of kingdoms"!
and the key to understanding this prophecy is to realize that it applies to the FUTURE -- How do we know this is a future prophecy, and not just something which occurred ages ago?
Chapter 30 proves it! This chapter continues the prophecy against Egypt! It gives us the time setting.



Well ,simple reading of Chapter 30 ,would shoot his future argument in the foot ,pay attention to the underlined,plz:




Ezekiel 30

1The word of the LORD came again to me saying,
2"Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
Wail, 'Alas for the day!'
3"For the day is near,
Even the day of the LORD is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
4"A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

5"Ethiopia, Put, Lud, all Arabia, Libya and the people of the land that is in league will fall with them by the sword."
6'Thus says the LORD,
"Indeed, those who support Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene
They will fall within her by the sword,"
Declares the Lord GOD.
7"They will be desolate
In the midst of the desolated lands;
And her cities will be
In the midst of the devastated cities.
8"And they will know that I am the LORD,
When I set a fire in Egypt
And all her helpers are broken.

9"On that day messengers will go forth from Me in ships to frighten secure Ethiopia; and anguish will be on them as on the day of Egypt; for behold, it comes!"

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against Egypt
And fill the land with the slain.
12"Moreover, I will make the Nile canals dry
And sell the land into the hands of evil men.
And I will make the land desolate
And all that is in it,
By the hand of strangers; I the LORD have spoken."

13'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also destroy the idols
And make the images cease from Memphis. And there will no longer be a prince in the land of Egypt;
And I will put fear in the land of Egypt.
14"I will make Pathros desolate,
Set a fire in Zoan
And execute judgments on Thebes.
15"I will pour out My wrath on Sin,
The stronghold of Egypt;
I will also cut off the hordes of Thebes.
16"I will set a fire in Egypt;
Sin will writhe in anguish,
Thebes will be breached
And Memphis will have distresses daily.
17"The young men of On and of Pi-beseth
Will fall by the sword,
And the women will go into captivity.
18"In Tehaphnehes the day will be dark
When I break there the yoke bars of Egypt.
Then the pride of her power will cease in her;
A cloud will cover her,
And her daughters will go into captivity.
19"Thus I will execute judgments on Egypt,
And they will know that I am the LORD."'"




He continues:

This chapter is describing the countries "in league" or allied with the "King of the south"! But notice the time setting for this prophecy. It is during the "DAY OF THE LORD" -- the time just ahead of us, during the climactic close of this human age of misrule, when Jesus Christ will establish His Kingdom over all!



the writer fancies himself that the term(DAY OF THE LORD) means the end days time

from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Lord

The term “Day of the Lord” is recorded twenty-four times in Scripture. In the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, there are numerous other terms that are synonyms for the Day of the Lord including:

the day of darkness
the day of God's wrath
the day of calamity
the day of wrath
the day of battle
day of disaster
day of reckoning
the day of his burning anger
day of vengeance
the day of salvation
the day of clouds and darkness
the day of your watchmen
the day of calamity
the day of his coming
that great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Now he tries to convince us that It has been fulfilled !!!!!!

God is no respecter of persons, or nations, Egypt also was to be punished "seven times" or 2520 years! During the 2520 year punishment on Egypt, many Egyptians wondered among the other nations of the world. They became known as "Gypsies," a word which obviously is derived from "Egyptian."

What a poor writer !!!

The Romani people (as a noun, singular Rom, plural Roma; sometimes Rrom, Rroma) or Romanies are an ethnic group living in many communities all over the world. The Roma are among the best known ethnic groups that appear in literature and folklore, and are often referred to as Gypsies or Gipsies, a term that is based on a mistaken belief of an origin in Egypt.

verify here the ( Population , Origins , Linguistic evidence ,Genetic evidence) of the Gypsies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_people


the article full of other flaws but that is enough for now ,and my short time.

peace for all

[ManchesterFolk]

I said I did not believe the article, I thought it was interesting though, the "doomsday" stuff, lol. I posted other articles and repsonses for you however.

[back_to_faith]

" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will bring a sword against you and kill your men and their animals. Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations andscatter them through the countries.

" 'Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom."

Commenters have used this passage as "proof" that Bible prophecy is not accurate and challenged me to disagree with them evidentially.


Prophecy and visions in the Bible

First, it is important to understand how prophecy works in the Bible. God would use poetic language full of figures of speech when making prophetic utterances. For instance, when God declares that stars will fall to the earth, we know quite well that just one star would burn the earth to a crisp before it ever managed to "fall" on us. I also mentioned that God doesn't actually "walk" on the "wings of the wind", but rather this is poetic language. We use such language ourselves: my heart is breaking (no, it's not) or, I would move heaven and earth (you'd do good moving a 200 pound boulder, dude!).

"]link[/URL]

Well, we have another guy who believes in a past fulfillment!!!

He wrote:

First, it is important to understand how prophecy works in the Bible. God would use poetic language full of figures of speech when making prophetic utterances. For instance, when God declares that stars will fall to the earth, we know quite well that just one star would burn the earth to a crisp before it ever managed to "fall"


ofcourse we (21 century civilized people) know that ,not such writers who thought that the earth is flat, the rabbits chew cuds,a cricket has four legs........now onder if they believed that stars will fall to the earth.

He continues:

The Book of Ezekiel begins with the author describing the beginning of a vision given him by God. The reader then understands that the language will be poetic and often the vision will be symbolic in nature.


So the fulfilment will be a vision of the desolate of Egypt or a visible,literal one by the naked eyes!!?


He wrote:


"Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them



first of all:

Nebuchadnezzar may have attacked and defeated Egypt, but he did not subjugate it, or exile its population. During the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Egypt was under the control of Pharaoh Amasis, who is well documented in both Egyptian and Greek sources, and was significantly powerful and prosperous.
the latter days of the 26th dynasty, which was the time of Amasis, are considered to be the last great phase of Egyptian history. Suffice it to say, they were not led off in exile to Babylon, or conquered by Nebuchadnezzar."

There are no dissenting opinions among Egyptologists about the prosperity, or relative length of Amasis's reign.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amasis.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasis



Again my questions for those in favor for past fulfillment:

1-where is the historical record of 40 years desolatation of Egypt of both people and animals?

2-Was,Is Egypt considered to be the lowliest of kingdoms? If yes ,where is your proofs?

[ManchesterFolk]

ofcourse we (21 century civilized people) know that ,not such writers who thought that the earth is flat, the rabbits chew cuds,a cricket has four legs........now onder if they believed that stars will fall to the earth.

Well, you may feel that way, but the figurative lannguage is written about in a variety of commentaries far beyond these discoveries, at least a few I have read.

1-where is the historical record of 40 years desolatation of Egypt of both people and animals?

I have already said that there are a variety of possibilities.


Remember a few posts ago? For now, we then go forward forty years in the Annals and find this entry:

3473 AM, 4183 JP, 531 BC

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26) (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.8. c.8.s.1.6:439) Xenophon, in the prologue to his whole work, stated that Cyrus had Egypt in his possession, (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.1.c.1.s.4.5:7) while all authors agree that it was later subdued by his son Cambyses. Hence, we conclude that in the intervening time they enjoyed their freedom."

Or....
I said it may not have been fufiiled yet, since they are seperate prophecies as I outlined a few posts ago.

2-Was,Is Egypt considered to be the lowliest of kingdoms? If yes ,where is your proofs?

Consider the military might of Egypt back then and now... Egypt is a particle of its former self, and if ytou look at the nations around the world today, especially Nuclear ones, Egypt is not considered a huge threat at all, it is very lowly compared to the mighty empire it once was.

[Philosopher]

back_to_faith: I congratulate you on doing an amazing job of refuting Biblical prophecies.

Also, it doesnt matter if the sources are from atheists. The content matters more.

[ManchesterFolk]

back_to_faith: I congratulate you on doing an amazing job of refuting Biblical prophecies.

Also, it doesnt matter if the sources are from atheists. The content matters more.

LOL. :giggling:

Have you read the site? It is actually a favorite of mine, the only problem is that the sam writer refutes Islamic texts as well. Call me to secular though... :rollseyes

[Philosopher]

LOL. :giggling:

Have you read the site? It is actually a favorite of mine, the only problem is that the sam writer refutes Islamic texts as well. Call me to secular though... :rollseyes

Obviously rav cannot refute the information so the best reply you/he can come up with is "LOL."

[ManchesterFolk]

Obviously rav cannot refute the information so the best reply you/he can come up with is "LOL."

Why can't he refute the info? Has he been refuted and I have not seen it? Who knows he may be researching, it may be a holiday where Jews cannot use electricity, or he may have a life not revolved around the computer (lol i should get one). While anyway, I suggest reading the evidence I posted about recordings of such a 40 year exile.

[Philosopher]

Why can't he refute the info? Has he been refuted and I have not seen it? Who knows he may be researching, it may be a holiday where Jews cannot use electricity, or he may have a life not revolved around the computer (lol i should get one). While anyway, I suggest reading the evidence I posted about recordings of such a 40 year exile.

Why he can't refute is simply the fault of the scriptural distortion of reality. There is no Jewish holiday from what I know. Also, he is a Rabbi and is a member of numerous religious boards defending Judaism (so yes he does spend considerable time in the computer). Y

You have posted some possibilities, but have no concrete evidence for any of them. I will leave it to back_to_faith to debate with you.

Peace.

[ManchesterFolk]

he is a Rabbi and is a member of numerous religious boards defending Judaism (so yes he does spend considerable time in the computer). Y

That would be:

"rebelishaulman".

I was under the impression that lavikor e-mailed "rav" to come back to this site and specifically answer questions for this and an anti-christian missionary forum since lavi had to leave. At least that is what I was sure I read from him, but I may be wrong.

Either way.

I welcome back to faith to dispute my evidence and points of Nebachadnezzr and the desolation of Egypt being different prophecies. Although, I will not tire myself in defending religions I do not even hold, but I do love comaparative religion and took many classes in colllege.

[Philosopher]

Manchester, you're apparently a Christian. Why dont you update your profile?

[جوري]

Manchester, you're apparently a Christian. Why dont you update your profile?

Actually I believe his inclinations are more toward Judaism--He is always jumping in to "save the day".. on threads directed toward Jews or Judaism in general.. it is most amusing to observe!

[ManchesterFolk]

I'm actually born of Christian parents but m wife is Jewish (kind of) and I seriously thought of converting to Judaism, but then decided not to, I then decided to convert to Catholicism, but then became a self described agnostic after observing how terrible this world, (or the people in it). But yes, I may have bias towards Christians and Jews, but I completly define myself as a Secularistic-Agnostic. I actually will defend Islam on board run by extremist right wing Christians so possibly I just join up with the minority. :p

A part great part of my major in comaprative religion though was focused on Judaism, and *gasp* Jainism (it gets interesting after the first few ch's on reading about the faith).

[جوري]

I'm actually born of Christian parents but m wife is Jewish (kind of) and I seriously thought of converting to Judaism, but then decided not to, I then decided to convert to Catholicism, but then became a self described agnostic after observing how terrible this world, (or the people in it). But yes, I may have bias towards Christians and Jews, but I completly define myself as a Secularistic-Agnostic. I actually will defend Islam on board run by extremist right wing Christians so possibly I just join up with the minority. :p

"orite" fair enough-- whom ever is under dog for the day is where you jump in and help-- an archetypal cyber hero so to speak!

peace!

[ManchesterFolk]

"orite" fair enough-- whom ever is under dog for the day is where you jump in and help-- an archetypal cyber hero so to speak!

peace!

Cyber Hero! I like it! :p Reps! :D

[Philosopher]

Are u majoring in religion? Where do you study from?

[ManchesterFolk]

Are u majoring in religion? Where do you study from?

I have majored in religion. My uni days are over. I have to work now, yuck, I wish I could go back to the books again, you don't enjoy it fully until you leave it. :(

[rav]

Dear rav

first:from now and on I will use the word (Hashem) for your own sake.

second:the accuse that Muslims use atheist opinions,sites etc.....shows nothing but a laziness and a kind of a refrain from answering the arguments ......
the prophecy under discussion,It doesn't need a scientific discovery nor a genieus writing from atheists or others to understand its failure...

The criticism of Ezekiel prophecy ,neither began by me nor by the infidels.org ,it is old one


To warn you, I may both become lethargic, and utilize other sites, or in actuality I may lunge into the research myself.

and I would be really happy if you utilize other sites without giving them the credit as long as their argument not unique nor has been repeated several times by several critics......and hope you get us straight to the topic under discussion ,in order for me not to think that you use the tactic of shifting the topic in order to refrain from answering.

and peace for you

Shalom,

May I first apologize for not being able to respond in a huge amount of depth. I am extremely busy right now, there is no Jewish holiday, but my main concerns are not research to answer people on this site.

I first ask you not to do anything for my sake. My remarks were exclusively for your own sake. Since you’re under the intuition that I am “shifting the topic”, I will oblige and get directly to the point.

That is clearly a failed ,unfulfilled prophecy:

1-None of this ever happened. There are no historical records of a 40-year period when Egypt was so desolate that neither animals nor humans inhabited it
2-The population of Egypt was never scattered among the nations and then regathered to its homeland.
3-It's political influence has fluctuated through the centuries, but there has never been a time when it could have been considered the "lowliest of kingdoms."

that is a clear clue that the writer(s) of Ezekiel ,being obssesed by the 40 years when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, into the wilderness of Sinai........so in his un-inspired writings he got such 40 year suffering, scattering of the Israeli and tried to use it with his wild imagination to apply it to the Egyptians in a failed imaginary prophecy....

A possibility which I have read: Egypt was laid waste in the 27th year of Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, who reigned for 45 years. When his reign ended, 18 years had elapsed since the ruin of Egypt. Evil-Merodach era of kings ascended to the throne next, and reigned for 22 years, which is 40 years since Egypt's destruction. In the first year of Belshazzar, who followed Evil-Merodach as King of Babylon, the prophecy that Persia would conquer Babylon was revealed to Daniel (see Daniel 5:25-28). At that time, in the days of the King of Persia, the Egyptian exiles began to gather and return to Egypt.

Egypt is also still not able to reach the military advantage it use to hold over its neighbors, and much of the world, as today, its military is seen as very “lowly” by much of the world who now hold much greater technology.

I would also like to thank ManchesterFolk who did provide legitimate sources on the exile and occupation of Egypt as well. I am of course sure that such an occupation would not be one that Egyptian kings would wish to record. After all, they did not like to record their military defeats.

I will certainly research into more depth when I return from my trip, I will analyze all opinions from our sages on these passages to understand how they viewed these prophecies and which had "end times" connections and which were separate entities.

[rav]

Shalom,

I am preparing for a trip that my entire family is taking right now, so if I have time before we leave I will try and go into much more depth in researching the topic, but currently I wish to let you all be aware that it will be difficult the week to be on this site or online enough to answer every question in the Judaism thread.

I pray that you will all have patience, and also recommend any fun places to go when at Disney World with my children. :)

[back_to_faith]

Well, you may feel that way, but the figurative lannguage is written about in a variety of commentaries far beyond these discoveries, at least a few I have read.



I have already said that there are a variety of possibilities.


Remember a few posts ago? For now, we then go forward forty years in the Annals and find this entry:

3473 AM, 4183 JP, 531 BC

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26) (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.8. c.8.s.1.6:439) Xenophon, in the prologue to his whole work, stated that Cyrus had Egypt in his possession, (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.1.c.1.s.4.5:7) while all authors agree that it was later subdued by his son Cambyses. Hence, we conclude that in the intervening time they enjoyed their freedom."

Or....
I said it may not have been fufiiled yet, since they are seperate prophecies as I outlined a few posts ago.




Consider the military might of Egypt back then and now... Egypt is a particle of its former self, and if ytou look at the nations around the world today, especially Nuclear ones, Egypt is not considered a huge threat at all, it is very lowly compared to the mighty empire it once was.

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26) (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.8. c.8.s.1.6:439) Xenophon, in the prologue to his whole work, stated that Cyrus had Egypt in his possession, (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.1.c.1.s.4.5:7) while all authors agree that it was later subdued by his son Cambyses. Hence, we conclude that in the intervening time they enjoyed their freedom."
Or....
I said it may not have been fufiiled yet, since they are seperate prophecies as I outlined a few posts ago.



Quote:
2-Was,Is Egypt considered to be the lowliest of kingdoms? If yes ,where is your proofs?

Consider the military might of Egypt back then and now... Egypt is a particle of its former self, and if ytou look at the nations around the world today, especially Nuclear ones, Egypt is not considered a huge threat at all, it is very lowly compared to the mighty empire it once was.







First of all

the Annals of Ussher can never be trusted as a historical accurate source to use in Ezekiel prophecy ..you ask why?

in the article he wrote:

Ussher combed through the historical accounts of Josephus, Herodotus, Xenophon, Plutarch and hundreds of others. Yes, he did use the Bible as one of his sources . Ussher included over twelve thousand footnotes and over two thousand quotes from the Bible and Apocrypha as part of his work.

3473 AM, 4183 JP, 531 BC

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26)!!

He used the Biblical claim of the forty years of desolation of Egypt,not a historical writing as his source in the specific passage of Ezekiel under discussion....but

where has ever Josephus,Herodotus, Xenophon, Plutarch,etc(other historical old sources) wrote that Egypt during the the time of Amasis was desolate for 40 years from man and beast from Migdol to Syene and Egyptians scattered among the nations and then regathered to their homeland?


Till the Annals of Ussher provides us of enough secular reference regarding the 40 years of desolation,his quote from Ezekiel and the other two thousand quotes from the Bible and Apocrypha ,holds no merit in the field of serious scholary study..


the prophecy under discussion should be proved to be fulfilled by old,accurate historical documents ,not to prove the Bible by the Bible !!!!!



read introductory to the period of Amasis

http://touregypt.net/herodotusonamasis.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amasis.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasis

I have dozens of non online material and references on Ancient Egypt and Amasis which mention nothing at at similar to Ezekiel claim ,such references I will quote if neccesary.

second:

you wrote:

Consider the military might of Egypt back then and now... Egypt is a particle of its former self, and if ytou look at the nations around the world today, especially Nuclear ones, Egypt is not considered a huge threat at all, it is very lowly compared to the mighty empire it once was.


Does it mean, the fact that Egypt is not considered a huge threat at the the nations around the world today ,makes it the lowest of kingdoms?!!Are you serious ?!!
I can count for you a dozen of lower kingdoms than Egypt from the time of Ezekiel till this moment,If you would like.

the cliam that Ancient Egyptian did not like to record their military defeats,completely specious ,in the light of the fact that several military defeats is recorded in ancient Egypt....for example:

Josephus claims to quote directly from Manetho,when he describes the conquest and occupation of Egypt by the Hyksos:

"By main force they easily seized it without striking a blow; and having overpowered the rulers of the land, they hen burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of gods...Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis."

[back_to_faith]

Shalom,

I am preparing for a trip that my entire family is taking right now, so if I have time before we leave I will try and go into much more depth in researching the topic, but currently I wish to let you all be aware that it will be difficult the week to be on this site or online enough to answer every question in the Judaism thread.

I pray that you will all have patience, and also recommend any fun places to go when at Disney World with my children. :)

Salam,

Have a nice trip rav...:)

[ManchesterFolk]

So you decided to attack the source? Smart strategy...

This is what was said about it:

"Considered not only a classic work of literature, but also esteemed for its preciseness and accuracy, The Annals of the World has not been published in the English language since the 17th century. Almost completely inaccessible to the public for 300 years, this book is a virtual historical encyclopedia with information and footnotes to history that otherwise would have been lost forever. Covering history from the beginning through the first century A.D., Ussher relates both famous accounts and little known events in the lives of the famous and infamous including pharaohs, Caesars, kings, conquerors, thieves, pirates, and murderers. He tells of the rise and fall of great and not-so-great nations and gives accounts of the events that shaped the world. (960 pages - hardbound)"

https://shopping.drdino.com/view_item.php?id=663

"(reference number 881) After Nebuchadnezzar conquered Egypt from Syrene to the very ends of the land, he made havock of the Egyptians and of the Jews who lived there. Some he killed and the rest he led away into captivity, in accordance with Jeremiah's prophecies. (Jer 43:1-44:30 46:1-28 Eze 29 1-31:18)

Pharoahhophra, or Apries, was forced to retreat into the country of Thebes. It seems that Nebuchadnezzar made Amasis his viceroy over all Egypt. Though Herodotus did not know of this, Scaliger observed in his notes Ad Fragmenta:

"The priests of Egypt told Herodotus of such things as he desired to know. They spoke only of things that glorified their country, but concealed the rest. This showed their cowardice and slavery, by concealing the payment of tribute they made to the Chaldeans."

But either way, I am very curious as to what happend in these years... I will look more into it, in secular sources. I never said I agree with him, but your attack on this prophecy is one where I am not sure it never happend, but either way it could be attributed to a load of things. There seem to be way to many loose ends.

[ManchesterFolk]

Shalom,

I am preparing for a trip that my entire family is taking right now, so if I have time before we leave I will try and go into much more depth in researching the topic, but currently I wish to let you all be aware that it will be difficult the week to be on this site or online enough to answer every question in the Judaism thread.

I pray that you will all have patience, and also recommend any fun places to go when at Disney World with my children. :)

Go do the water rides, but don't bring your wife if you like to whole "modesty" religious stuff...

I will certainly research into more depth when I return from my trip, I will analyze all opinions from our sages on these passages to understand how they viewed these prophecies and which had "end times" connections and which were separate entities.

That would be interesting, please do post what your "sages" have to say....

[back_to_faith]

So you decided to attack the source? Smart strategy...



But either way, I am very curious as to what happend in these years... I will look more into it, in secular sources. I never said I agree with him, but your attack on this prophecy is one where I am not sure it never happend, but either way it could be attributed to a load of things. There seem to be way to many loose ends.

I'm not all the way attacking the source,Just wonder when the writer said:

"(reference 958) Amasis, it seems, defected from Cyrus. The people of Egypt, who had previously been carried away by Nebuchadnezzar, were now being sent back again by Cyrus into their own country, after forty years in exile. They returned to their own kingdom toward the end of the life of Amasis. Egypt was once again a kingdom, very old and ancient, it is true, but the least significant of all of them and no longer of much use to any other country. (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26) (Xenophon, Cyropedia 1.8. c.8.s.1.6:439)

1-Does the Xenophon, Cyropedia claims that Egypt from Syrene to the very ends of the land was laid waste for 40 years?
the answer is no.

2-Does the Xenophon, Cyropedia claims that after forty years in exile. ALL the Egyptians returned to their own kingdom ?
again ,the answer is no

English Translation of Xenophon's Cyropedia

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/x..._Cyropedia.htm

3-Where is that cliam of the 40 years desolation can only be found?
in (Eze 29:11-16 Jer 46:26)



again my Questions:

1-Where is the historical old source claims that during the period of Amasis ,Egypt stayed for 40 years in "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south)?
2-Where is the proofs that Egypt considered from the time of the prophecy till now, to be the "lowliest of kingdoms." ?

[ManchesterFolk]

1-Where is the historical old source claims that during the period of Amasis ,Egypt stayed for 40 years in "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south)?
2-Where is the proofs that Egypt considered from the time of the prophecy till now, to be the "lowliest of kingdoms." ?

First off, the utter waste thing may not have happend yet. That may be coming later according to the Bible. What has happend is, Nebachadnezzar did conquer Egypt. Such things as not being inhabbited, etc are different prophecies, which are proclaimed on different days.

[back_to_faith]

First off, the utter waste thing may not have happend yet. That may be coming later according to the Bible. What has happend is, Nebachadnezzar did conquer Egypt. Such things as not being inhabbited, etc are different prophecies, which are proclaimed on different days.

Welcome back to the thread Manchester ..

as a matter of fact it seems you never bothered yourself to read Ezekiel 29&30 in context ,which shows without any reasonable doubt that and in explicit language ,that this desolation of Egypt would be done by Nebuchadnezzar and the Such things as not being inhabbited, etc would be the result of his attack on it, read the following in context to know the simplicity of your error regarding the claim(2 prophecies about Egypt in ezekiel)... and plz pay attention to the underlined.

Ezekiel 29

1In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2"Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt.

3"Speak and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt,
The great monster that lies in the midst of his rivers,
That has said, 'My Nile is mine, and I myself have made it.'
4"I will put hooks in your jaws
And make the fish of your rivers cling to your scales.
And I will bring you up out of the midst of your rivers,
And all the fish of your rivers will cling to your scales.
5"I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your rivers;
You will fall on the open field; you will not be brought together or gathered
I have given you for food to the beasts of the earth and to the birds of the sky.
6"Then all the inhabitants of Egypt will know that I am the LORD,
Because they have been only a staff made of reed to the house of Israel.
7"When they took hold of you with the hand,
You broke and tore all their hands;
And when they leaned on you,
You broke and made all their loins quake."

8'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast.
9"The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste Then they will know that I am the LORD Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,'

10therefore, behold, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene and even to the border of Ethiopia.
11"A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years.

12"So I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands."

13'For thus says the Lord GOD, "At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered.

14"I will turn the fortunes of Egypt and make them return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they will be a lowly kingdom.

15"It will be the lowest of the kingdoms, and it will never again lift itself up above the nations And I will make them so small that they will not rule over the nations.

16"And it will never again be the confidence of the house of Israel, bringing to mind the iniquity of their having turned to Egypt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD."'"

17Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,

18"Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it."

19Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army.

20"I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me," declares the Lord GOD.

21"On that day I will make a horn sprout for the house of Israel, and I will open your mouth in their midst. Then they will know that I am the LORD."



Ezekiel 30

1The word of the LORD came again to me saying,
2"Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
Wail, 'Alas for the day!'
3"For the day is near,
Even the day of the LORD is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
4"A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

5"Ethiopia, Put, Lud, all Arabia, Libya and the people of the land that is in league will fall with them by the sword."
6'Thus says the LORD,
"Indeed, those who support Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene
They will fall within her by the sword,"
Declares the Lord GOD.
7"They will be desolate
In the midst of the desolated lands;
And her cities will be
In the midst of the devastated cities.
8"And they will know that I am the LORD,
When I set a fire in Egypt
And all her helpers are broken.

9"On that day messengers will go forth from Me in ships to frighten secure Ethiopia; and anguish will be on them as on the day of Egypt; for behold, it comes!"

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against EgyptAnd fill the land with the slain. 12"Moreover, I will make the Nile canals dry
And sell the land into the hands of evil men.
And I will make the land desolateAnd all that is in it,
By the hand of strangers; I the LORD have spoken."

13'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also destroy the idols
And make the images cease from Memphis. And there will no longer be a prince in the land of Egypt;
And I will put fear in the land of Egypt.
14"I will make Pathros desolate,
Set a fire in Zoan
And execute judgments on Thebes.
15"I will pour out My wrath on Sin,
The stronghold of Egypt;
I will also cut off the hordes of Thebes.
16"I will set a fire in Egypt;
Sin will writhe in anguish,
Thebes will be breached
And Memphis will have distresses daily.
17"The young men of On and of Pi-beseth
Will fall by the sword,
And the women will go into captivity.
18"In Tehaphnehes the day will be dark
When I break there the yoke bars of Egypt.
Then the pride of her power will cease in her;
A cloud will cover her,
And her daughters will go into captivity.
19"Thus I will execute judgments on Egypt,
And they will know that I am the LORD."'"


peace for all

[back_to_faith]

peace for all

[ManchesterFolk]

Right so the first prophecy could be:

1In the tenth year, in the tenth month, on the twelfth of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,

Then Neba is mentioned, but after this verse:

17Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying,

Which makes it seem like a different prophecy since it was at a different time.

4"A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

5"Ethiopia, Put, Lud, all Arabia, Libya and the people of the land that is in league will fall with them by the sword."
6'Thus says the LORD,
"Indeed, those who support Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene
They will fall within her by the sword,"
Declares the Lord GOD.
7"They will be desolate
In the midst of the desolated lands;
And her cities will be
In the midst of the devastated cities.
8"And they will know that I am the LORD,
When I set a fire in Egypt
And all her helpers are broken.

Okay this is one prophecy...


Then the Bible says:

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against EgyptAnd fill the land with the slain. 12"Moreover, I will make the Nile canals dry
And sell the land into the hands of evil men.
And I will make the land desolateAnd all that is in it,

It says ALSO, so could this not mean that he will make another prophecy by also sending Neba to conquer Egypt (and by the way, the Nebachadnezzar did conquer egypt).

Or is my theory to out there of the prophecies not being connected?


Itsays:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt
by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.

11 He and his army—the most ruthless of nations—
will be brought in to destroy the land.
They will draw their swords against Egypt
and fill the land with the slain.
my comment: The Neba did conquer Egypt at one point, and many died. Read The History of Palestine from the Patriarchal Age to the Present Time By John Kitto P. 315

12 I will dry up the streams of the Nile
and sell the land to evil men;
by the hand of foreigners
I will lay waste the land and everything in it.
I the LORD have spoken.
my comment: we cannot verify or not that the nile dried up at one point, but we have no way of knowing if evil men had a hand in egypt at one point unless u had some connections in egypt that we dont know about.:p

13 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'I will destroy the idols
and put an end to the images in Memphis. [c]
No longer will there be a prince in Egypt,
and I will spread fear throughout the land.

my comment: the idols in egypt are gone since islam came to it, and there are no more "princes" in egypt either, a bold statement to make when egypt was so powerful at that time, and who would have thought that idolatry would have been gone from egypt at all? Its like me saying that islam will leave saudi arabia, that is how big a prediction like that was!.

LOL, to out there.... or can you see the point i am trying to make? my point is that the actual destruction and exile of the land.... and then Neba conquering it are to different prophecies since they are seperated, and when made, they are pronoucned that the Lord of the Bible told them to Exekiel at different times, (the years are different.)

[thirdwatch512]

the Bible is a VERY VERY VERY VERY EXTREMELY symbolic book. in fact, there are many parts of the OT that i can't read without commentary.

i have this program called "e-Sword." on e-Sword, you can download dozens of maps, Bible's, and all kinds of things, in Hebrew, Greek, you name it. you can download commentary from like 20 different people too. and from the commentary I see, Ezekiel 29 and 30 is VERY symbolic. i would love to post it, but I won't be able to show sources, as it's not an online source.

[Philosopher]

the Bible is a VERY VERY VERY VERY EXTREMELY symbolic book. in fact, there are many parts of the OT that i can't read without commentary.

i have this program called "e-Sword." on e-Sword, you can download dozens of maps, Bible's, and all kinds of things, in Hebrew, Greek, you name it. you can download commentary from like 20 different people too. and from the commentary I see, Ezekiel 29 and 30 is VERY symbolic. i would love to post it, but I won't be able to show sources, as it's not an online source.

That is why Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old :rollseyes

[ManchesterFolk]

That is why Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old :rollseyes

LOL!!!!! REPS!!!! BIG TIME!!!!!!

Your my favorite member now! :D

[thirdwatch512]

That is why Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old :rollseyes

i'm VERY glad you brought that up.. because today i had actually read an article about islam, and i remember it quoting mohammad MANY times saying that the earth started 6,000 years ago. i wish i would have stayed on that site lol, because it was like an hour ago!!

anyways, as for the age of the earth.. some hardline people beleive that the earth is 6,000 years old.

1. i don't see how evolution contradicts the Bible.. because in Genesis, it say "IN THE BEGINNING", which infers that it wasn't written from the beginning.

but, even if we assume that the Bible CAN'T preach evolution, the world would still be over 6,000 years old..

· Adam was 130 years old when he had Seth (Gen. 5:3) = 130

· Seth was 105 years old when he had Enosh (Gen. 5:6) = 105

· Enosh lived a total of 905 years (Gen. 5:11) = 905 Thus, the time span between Adam to Enosh’s death is 130 + 105 + 905 = 1140 years.

· Enosh was 90 years old when he had Kenan (Gen. 5:9).

· From Kenan to Methuselah (Gen. 5:12-25), we don’t have a specific chronology; however, if we follow the pattern of the previous chronology (Gen. 5:3-11 with Kenan to Mahalalel; Mahalalel to Jared; and Jared to Enoch), this period would only account for 4,000 – 5,000 years. This is bolstered by the pattern of the subsequent chronology of Gen. 5:28-32, the other chronological “book-end” to Gen. 5:12-23. There is absolutely nothing in the texts that suggest there were millions of years between Kenan and Methuselah. Nothing at all indicates that thirteen verses of Scripture (Gen. 5:12-25), which are sandwiched between two short chronologies, account for millions of years. The analysis below provides more proof for this conclusion. Is the earth only 6,000 years old?

· While the foregoing analysis supports a young earth, it necessarily refutes the contention that the earth is only 6,000 years old (which is held by some Protestant creationists due to their misinterpretation of the word “begat”). When the Scripture says “A begat B,” the word “begat” (Hebrew, yalad) simply means “to bring forth.” The word does not necessarily connote a direct father-son relationship. Thus, the chronologies in Genesis 5 and 11 provide both direct and indirect ancestral lineage (by using “calendar markers” as we will further see below). This is why they account for approximately 4,000 to 5,000 years, and not less time.

· Here is proof that “begat” does not necessarily mean a direct father-son relationship: Genesis 11:12 says that Arpachshad “begat” Shelah, but Luke 3:36 says that Arpachshad “begat” Cainan (as we will see below, Shelah was born in the year Arpachshad died, even though Arpachshad “begat” Shelah). 1 Chron. 3:16 says Josiah “begat” Jehoiakim, but Matthew 1:11 says Josiah “begat” Jeconiah. In 1 Chron. 3:11-12, we see the line of Jehoram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Jotham; but in Matthew 1:8-9, we see the shorter and different line of Jehoram, Uzziah, Jotham. This demonstrates that the biblical chronologies are not exclusively father-son relationships (in fact, they usually are not). “Begat” typically means that A “brought forth” B, whether immediately or only proximately (that is, later on in the lineage).

· Now, here is an example of the Hebrew use of “calendar markers” in Genesis 11: There is 438 years between Arpachshad and Shelah (not 35 years), even though it says that “Arpachshad was 35 when he begat Shelah” (Gen. 11:12). This actually means that when Arpachshad was 35, the ancestor of Shelah was born (not Shelah himself). Gen. 11:13 says that Arpachshad lived 403 years after he begat Shelah (that is, after he begat Shelah’s ancestor). Thus, there are 35 + 403 = 438 years between Arpachshad and Shelah. Why is this? As we have stated, because the Hebrew chronologies use names (e.g. Arpachshad) as “calendar markers” for their generations. Arpachshad served as the calendar marker for his generation, and when he died, Shelah served as the next calendar marker for his new generation. Thus, the chronological time spans can be traced precisely. The new calendar marker (e.g. Shelah) was always born in the year that the old calendar year marker (e.g. Arpachshad) died. This means there is a significant amount of time between calendar markers, for each name (e.g. Arpachshad) represents a generation. Now, we continue with Lamech and finish with Noah:

· Methuselah was 187 years old when he had Lamech (Gen. 5:25).

· Lamech was 182 years old when he had Noah (Gen. 28-29) = 182

· Noah lived for 950 years (Gen. 9:29) = 950 Thus, from Lamech to Noah’s death is 182 + 950 = 1132 years. This means that from the creation of the world to Noah’s death is, at most, 1140 + 5000 + 1132 = 7272 years (the more conservative view is 1000 less, or 6272 years). Now, there are nine “calendar markers” in Genesis 11: Shem (Gen. 11:10); Arpachshad (Gen. 11:10); Shelah (Gen. 11:12); Eber (Gen. 11:14); Peleg (Gen. 11:16); Reu (Gen. 11:18); Serug (Gen. 11:20); Nahor (Gen. 11:22); and Terah (Gen. 11:24). We also know that when Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, the first calendar marker in Genesis 11 (see Gen. 5:32). We further know that when Terah, the last calendar marker in Genesis 11, was 70 years old, he became the father of Abram (Gen. 11:26-27,31). Thus, the are approximately 3000 years between the time Noah had Shem, and Terah had Abram. This means that the earth was about 6822 years old when Noah had Shem (7272 – 950 + 500), and about 9822 years old when Terah had Abram (6822 + 3000). When did the flood occur? God sent the flood in the 600th year of Noah’s life (Gen. 7:11). This means the flood occurred when the world was, at most, approximately 6922 years old (7272 – 950 + 600; or 6822 + 100). As we will see below, if Abram was born around 2214 B.C., this puts the flood at approximately 5314 B.C. (100 years between birth of Shem and flood + 3000 years for the rest of the Genesis 11 chronology to Abram’s birth in 2214 B.C., or 100 + 3000 + 2214). Following supports the approximate time of Abram’s birth:

· The date of the division of the Davidic kingdom (between Rehoboam and Jeroboam) has been set at 931 B.C. (see 1 Kings 12). This is confirmed by 1 Kings 14:25 and 2 Chron. 2:12 which say that Shishak, who rampaged Rehov in 925 B.C., came against Jerusalem in the “fifth year of Rehoboam” (or about 931 B.C.).

· There were 480 years between Solomon’s fourth year (967 B.C.) and the Exodus (1 Kings 6:1). This brings us to 1447 B.C. (967 + 480).

· The Exodus lasted 430 years (Ex. 12:41), and commenced when Jacob entered into Egypt. This brings us to 1877 B.C. (1447 + 430). So the Exodus started in about 1877 B.C. and ended in 1447 B.C. This 430 time span is confirmed by Exodus 6:14-29 which adds the years of Levi (77 years), Koath (133 years), Amram (137 years) and Aaron’s age (83; see Ex. 7:7; Num. 33:39); 77 + 133 + 137 + 83 = 430 years.

· Jacob lived to be 147 years old (Gen. 47:28), and lived in Egypt for 70 of those years (Gen. 47:28). This means Jacob was 77 when he entered into Egypt (147 – 70); 1877 + 77 = 1954 B.C.

· Isaac was 60 years old when he had Jacob (Gen. 25:26); 1954 + 60 = 2014 B.C.

· Abraham was 100 years old when he had Isaac (Gen. 21:5); 2014 + 100 = 2114 B.C. This puts Abraham’s birth at about 2214 B.C. (2114 + 100). Abraham lived for 175 years (Gen. 25:7) which means Abraham died around 2039 B.C. Thus, we have the following: * 7272 years (at most, from the creation of Adam on the sixth day to Noah’s death); * 2550 years (from Noah’s death to Abram’s birth; 3000 years less 450, since Shem was born when Noah was 500 years old, that is 950 - 450); * 2214 years (from Abram’s birth to the birth of Christ in 1 B.C.) * 2005 Anno Domini (the current year)

____________

14,041 years

overall though, i believe in evolution, and don't see a problem with it. and i don't think it contradicts the Bible.

[Philosopher]

i'm VERY glad you brought that up.. because today i had actually read an article about islam, and i remember it quoting mohammad MANY times saying that the earth started 6,000 years ago. i wish i would have stayed on that site lol, because it was like an hour ago!!

I am interested in reading your article and knowing it's source.

And I'm sure there are hundreds of articles refuting it.


As for the rest of your post, science > Bible. The earth is 4 billion years old, and the universe is 14 billion.

You cannot trust the Old Testament because it is notorious for defying the laws of science, in addition to its contradictions.

[Philosopher]

Thirdwatch,

I also forgot to mention that there were numerous Christians theologians who predicted the date for the end of the world but were wrong EVERY time. Their gathered their calculations from the Bible (hence the problem).

53 AD
Even before all the books of the Bible were written, there was talk that Christ's return had already taken place. The Thessalonians panicked on Paul when they heard a rumor that the day of the Lord was at hand, and they had missed the rapture.

500
A Roman priest living in the second century predicted Christ would return in 500 AD, based on the dimensions of Noah's ark.

1000
This year goes down as one of the most heightened periods of hysteria over the return of Christ. All members of society seemed affected by the prediction that Jesus was coming back at the start of the new millennium. None of the events required by the Bible were transpiring at that time; the magic of the number 1000 was the sole reason for the expectation. During concluding months of 999 AD, everyone was on his best behavior; worldly goods were sold and given to the poor; swarms of pilgrims headed east to meet the Lord at Jerusalem; buildings went unrepaired; crops were left unplanted; and criminals were set free from jails. When the year 999 AD turned into 1000 AD, nothing happened.

1033
This year was cited as the beginning of the millennium because it marked 1,000 years since Christ's crucifixion.

1186
The "Letter of Toledo" warned everyone to hide in the caves and mountains. The world was reportedly to be destroyed with only a few spared.

1420
The Taborites of Czechoslovakia predicted every city would be annihilated by fire. Only five mountain strongholds would be saved.

1524-1526
Muntzer, a leader of German peasants, announced that the return of Christ was near. After Muntzer and his men destroyed the high and mighty, the Lord would supposedly return. This belief led to an uneven battle against government troops. He was strategically outnumbered. Muntzer claimed to have had a vision from God in which the Lord promised that He would catch the cannonballs of the enemy in the sleeves of His cloak. The prediction within the vision turned out to be false when Muntzer and his followers were mowed down by cannon fire.

1534
A repeat of the Muntzer affair occurred a few years later. This time, Jan Matthys took over the city of Munster. The city was to be the only one spared from destruction. The inhabitants of Munster, chased out by Matthys and his men, regrouped and lay siege to the city. Within a year, everyone in the city was dead.

1650-1660
The Fifth Monarchy Men looked for Jesus to establish a theocracy. They took up arms and tried to seize England by force. The movement died when the British monarchy was restored in 1660.

1666
For the citizens of London, 1666 was not a banner year. A bubonic plague outbreak killed 100,000 and the Great Fire of London struck the same year. The world seemed at an end to most Londoners. The fact that the year ended with the Beast's number—666--didn't help matters.

1809
Mary Bateman, who specialized in fortune telling, had a magic chicken that laid eggs with end-time messages on them. One message said that Christ was coming. The uproar she created ended when an unannounced visitor caught her forcing an egg into the hen's oviduct. Mary later was hanged for poisoning a wealthy client. History does not record whether the offended chicken attended the hanging.

1814
Spiritualist Joanna Southcott made the startling claim that she, by virgin birth, would produce the second Jesus Christ. Her abdomen began to swell and so did the crowds of people around her. The time for the birth came and passed; she died soon after. An autopsy revealed she had experienced a false pregnancy.

1836
John Wesley wrote that "the time, times and half a time" of Revelation 12:14 were 1058*1836, "when Christ should come" (A. M. Morris, The Prophecies Unveiled, p. 361).

1843-1844
William Miller was the founder of an end-times movement that was so prominent it received its own name, Millerism. From his studies of the Bible, Miller determined that the second coming would happen sometime between 1843-1844. A spectacular meteor shower in 1833 gave the movement a good push forward. The buildup of anticipation continued until March 21, 1844, when Miller's one-year timetable ran out. Some followers set another date--Oct 22, 1844. This too failed, collapsing the movement. One follower described the days after the failed predictions: "The world made merry over the old Prophet's predicament. The taunts and jeers of the 'scoffers' were well-nigh unbearable."

1859
Rev. Thomas Parker, a Massachusetts minister, looked for the millennium to start about 1859.

1881
Someone called Mother Shipton had, 400 years earlier, claimed that the world would end in 1881. A controversy hangs over the Shipton writings as to whether or not publishers doctored the text. If the date was wrong, should it matter anyway?

1910
The revisit of Halley's comet was, for many, an indication of the Lord's second coming. The earth actually passed through the gaseous tail of the comet. One enterprising man sold comet pills to people for protection against the effects of the toxic gases.

1914
Charles Russell, after being exposed to the teachings of William Miller, founded his own organization that evolved into the Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1914, Russell predicted the return of Jesus Christ.

1918
In 1918, new math didn't help the Witnesses from striking out again.

1925
The Witnesses had no better luck in 1925. They already possessed the title of “Most Wrong Predictions.” They would expand upon it in the years to come.

1941
Once again, Jehovah's Witnesses beleived that Armageddon was due. Before the end of 1941, the end of all things was predicted.

1967
When the city of Jerusalem was reclaimed by the Jews in 1967, prophecy watchers declared that the "Time of the Gentiles" had come to an end.

1970
The True Light Church of Christ made its claim to fame by incorrectly forecasting the return of Jesus. A number of church members had quit their livelihoods ahead of the promised advent.

1973
A comet that turned out to be a visual disappointment nonetheless compelled one preacher to announce that it would be a sign of the Lord's return.

1975
The Jehovah's Witnesses were back at it in 1975. The failure of the forecast did not affect the growth of the movement. The Watchtower magazine, a major Witness periodical, has over 13 million subscribers.

1977
We all remember the killer bee scare of the late 1970's. One prophecy prognosticator linked the bees to Revelation 9:3-12. After 20 years of progression, the bees are still in Texas. I'm beginning to think of them as the killer snails.

1981
One author boldly declared that the rapture would occur before December 31, 1981, based on Christian prophecy, astronomy, and a dash of ecological fatalism. He pegged the date to Jesus' promised return to earth a generation after Israel's rebirth. He also made references to the "Jupiter Effect," a planetary alignment occurring every 179 years that supposedly could lead to earthquakes and nuclear plant meltdowns.

1982
It was all going to end in 1982, when the planets lined up and created magnetic forces that would bring Armageddon to the earth.

1982
A group called the Tara Centers placed full-page advertisements in many major newspapers for the weekend of April 24-25, 1982, announcing: "The Christ is Now Here!" They predicted that He was to make himself known "within the next two months." After the date passed, they said that the delay was only because the "consciousness of the human race was not quite right..." Boy, all these years and we're still not ready.

1984
The Jehovah's Witnesses made sure, in 1984, that no one else would be able to top their record of most wrong doomsday predictions. The Witnesses' record currently holds at nine. The years are: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984. Lately, the JWs are claiming they're out of the prediction business, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. They'll be back.

1987
The Harmonic Convergence was planned for August 16-17, 1987, and several New Age events were also to occur at that time. The second coming of the serpent god of peace and the Hopi dance awakening were two examples.

1988
The book, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture is in 1988, came out only a few months before the event was to take place. What little time the book had, it used effectively. By the time the predicted dates, September 11-13, rolled around, whole churches were caught up in the excitement the book generated. I personally had friends who were measuring themselves for wings. In the dorm where we lived, my friends were also openly confronting all of the unsaved. It became my job to defuse situations. In one case, an accosted sinner was contemplating dispensary action against my now-distant friends. Finally, the days of destiny dawned and then set. No Jesus. The environment was not the same as Miller's 1844 failure. To my surprise, the taunting by the unsaved was very brief. I took it that people have very little understanding of the Bible, so they had nothing to taunt my friends with. I made one other interesting observation. Although the time for the rapture had been predicted to fall within a three-day window, September 11-13, my friends gave up hope on the morning of the 12th. I pointed out that they still had two days left, but they had been spooked, nonetheless

1989
After the passing of the deadline in 88 Reasons, the author, Edgar Whisenant, came out with a new book called 89 Reasons Why the Rapture is in 1989. This book sold only a fraction of the number of copies his prior release had sold.

1991
A group in Australia predicted Jesus would return through the Sydney Harbor at 9 a.m., March 31, 1991.

1991
Menachem Schneerson, a Russian-born rabbi, called for the Messiah to come by September 9, 1991, the start of the Jewish New Year.

1992
A Korean group called Mission for the Coming Days had the Korea Church an uproar in the fall of 1992. They foresaw October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture. Numerology was the basis for the date. Several camera shots that left ghostly images on pictures were thought to be a supernatural confirmation of the date.

1993
If the year 2000 is the end of the 6,000-year cycle, then the rapture must take place in 1993, because you would need seven years of the tribulation. This was the thinking of a number of prophecy writers.

1994
In the book, 1994: The Year of Destiny , F. M. Riley foretold of God's plan to rapture His people. The name of his ministry is “The Last Call,” and he operates out of Missouri.

1994
Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles caused quite a stir when he announced he had received a vision from God that warned of apocalyptic event on June 9, 1994. Hinkle, quoting God, said, "On Thursday June the 9th, I will rip the evil out of this world." At the time, I knew Hinkle's vision didn't match up with Scripture. From a proper reading of Bible prophecy, the only thing that God could possibly rip from the earth would be the Christian Church, and I don't think God would refer to the Church as "evil." Some people tried to interpret Hinkle's unscriptural vision to mean that God would the rip evil out of our hearts when He raptured us. Well, the date came and went with no heart surgery or rapture.

1994
Harold Camping, in his book Are You Ready?, predicted the Lord would return in September 1994. The book was full of numerology that added up to 1994 as the date of Christ's return.

1994
After promising they would not make anymore end time predictions, the Jehovah's Witnesses fell off the wagon and proclaimed 1994 as the conclusion of an 80-year generation; the year 1914 was the starting point.

1996
This year had a special month, according to one author who foresaw September as the time for our Lord's return. The Church Age will last 2,000 years from the time of Christ's birth in 4 BC.

1996
California psychic Sheldon Nidle predicted the end would come with the convergence of 16 million space ships and a host of angels upon the earth on December 17, 1996. Nidle explained the passing of the date by claiming the angels placed us in a holographic projection to preserve us and give us a second chance.

1997
In regard to 1997, I received several e-mail messages that pointed to this as the year when Jesus would return for His church. Two of the more widely known time frames were Monte Judah's prediction that the tribulation would begin in February/March and another prediction based on numerology and the Psalms that targeted May 14 as the date of the rapture.

1997
When Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat signed their peace pact on the White House lawn on September 13, 1993, some saw the events as the beginning of tribulation. With the signing of the peace agreement, Daniel's 1,260-day countdown was underway. By adding 1,260 days to September 1993, you arrive at February 24, 1997.

1997
Stan Johnson of the Prophecy Club saw a "90 percent" chance that the tribulation would start September 12, 1997. He based his conclusion on several end-time signs: that would be Jesus' 2,000th birthday and it would also be the Day of Atonement, although it wouldn’t be what is currently the Jewish Day of Atonement. Further supporting evidence came from Romanian pastor Dumitru Duduman. In several heavenly visions, Dumitru claimed to have seen the Book of Life. In one of his earlier visions, there were several pages yet to be completed. In his last vision, he noticed the Book of Life only had one page left. Doing some rough calculating, Johnson and friends figured the latest time frame for the completion of the book would have to be September 1997.

1998
Numerology: Because 666 times three equals 1998, some people point to this year as being prophetically significant. Someone called me long distance just so he could pass on to me this earth-shattering news.

1998
A Taiwanese cult operating out of Garland, Texas predicted Christ would return on March 31 of 1998. The group's leader, Heng-ming Chen, announced God would return and then invite the cult members aboard a UFO. The group abandoned their prediction when a precursor event failed to take place. The cult's leader had said that God would appear on every channel 18 of every TV in the world. Maybe God realized at the last minute, the Playboy Network was channel 18 on several cable systems, and He didn't want to have Christians watching a porn channel.

1998
On April 30, 1998, Israel was to turn 50 and many believed this birthday would mark the beginning of the tribulation. The reasoning behind this date has to do with God's age requirement for the priesthood, which is between 30-50.

1998
1998 Marilyn Agee, in her book, The End of the Age, had her sights set on May 31, 1998. This date was to conclude the 6,000-year cycle from the time of Adam. Agee looked for the rapture to take place on Pentecost, which is also known as “the Feast of Weeks.” Another indicator of this date was the fact that the Holy Spirit did not descend upon the apostles until 50 days after Christ's resurrection. Israel was born in 1948; add the 50 days as years and you come up with. After her May 31 rapture date failed, Agee, unable to face up to her error, continued her date setting by using various Scripture references to point to June 7, 14, 21 and about 10 other dates.

1999
Well, you can't call Marilyn Agee a quitter. After bombing out badly several time in 1998, Marilyn set a new date for the rapture: May 21 or 22 of this year.

1999
TV newscaster-turned-psychic Charles Criswell King had said in 1968 that the world as we know it would cease to exist on August 18, 1999.

1999
Philip Berg, a rabbi at the Kabbalah Learning Center in New York, proclaimed that the end might arrive on September 11, 1999, when "a ball of fire will descend . . . destroying almost all of mankind, all vegetation, all forms of life."

2000
Numerology: If you divide 2,000 by 3, you will get the devil's number: 666.66666666666667.
2000
The names of the people and organizations that called for the return of Christ at the turn of the century is too long to be listed here. I would say that if there were a day on which Christ could not return, it must have been January 1, 2000. To come at an unknown time means to come at an unknown time. I think January 2, 2000 would have been a more likely day for Him to call His Church home--right after the big let down.

2000
On May 5, 2000, all of the planets were supposed to have been in alignment. This was said to cause the earth to suffer earthquakes, volcanic eruption, and various other nasty stuff. A similar alignment occurred in 1982 and nothing happened. People failed to realize that the other nine planets only exert a very tiny gravitational pull on the earth. If you were to add up the gravitational force from the rest of the planets, the total would only amount to a fraction of the tug the moon has on the earth.

2000
According to Michael Rood, the end times have a prophetically complicated connection to Israel's spring barley harvest. The Day of the Lord began on May 5, 2000. Rood's fall feast calendar called for the Russian Gog-Magog invasion of Israel to take place at sundown on October 28, 2000.

2000-2001
Dr. Dale SumburËru looked for March 22, 1997 to be "the date when all the dramatic events leading through the tribulation to the return of Christ should begin" The actual date of Christ's return could be somewhere between July 2000 and March 2001. Dr. SumburËru is more general about the timing of Christ's second coming than most writers. He states, "The day the Lord returns is currently unknown because He said [Jesus] these days are cut short and it is not yet clear by how much and in what manner they are cut short. If the above assumptions are not correct, my margin of error would be in weeks, or perhaps months."

2002
Priests from Cuba's Afro-Caribbean Yoruba religion predicted a dramatic year of tragedy and crisis for the world in 2002, ranging from coups and war to disease and flooding.

2004
This date for Jesus' return is based upon psalmology, numerology, the biblical 360 days per year, Jewish holidays, and "biblical astronomy." To figure out this date, you'll need a calculator, a slide rule, and plenty of scratch paper.

2011-2018
For the past several decades, Jack Van Impe has hinted at nearly every year as being the time for the rapture. Normally, he has only gone out one or two years from the current calendar year. However, Jack's latest projection for the rapture goes out several years. His new math uses 51 years as the length of a generation. If you add 51 years to 1967, the year Israel recaptured Jerusalem, you get 2018. Once you subtract the seven-year tribulation period, you arrive at 2011.

2012
New Age writers cite Mayan and Aztec calendars that predict the end of the age on December 21, 2012.

2060
Sir Isaac Newton, Britain's greatest scientist, spent 50 years and wrote 4,500 pages trying to predict when the end of the world was coming. The most definitive date he set for the apocalypse, which he scribbled on a scrap of paper, was 2060.

Conclusion: The Bible is not symbolic, but rather factually inaccurate.

[ManchesterFolk]

You cannot trust the Old Testament because it is notorious for defying the laws of science, in addition to its contradictions.

Well, to be fair, all holy books defy science and rely on some sort of faith, and to say the Quran, New testament, Old testament, or Bhagavad-Gita are any different in that respect is a far reach. I don't care how many times cleverly written articles on how the torah, gospel or quran have scientific miracles... all of them rely on faith at some point and claim that their Deity can alter science to stop the effects/consequences of the actions in their scritpures.

[Philosopher]

Well, to be fair, all holy books defy science and rely on some sort of faith, and to say the Quran, New testament, Old testament, or Bhagavad-Gita are any different in that respect is a far reach.

To lump all holy books together is a logical fallacy.

[ManchesterFolk]

To lump all holy books together is a logical fallacy.

Most agnostics you meet will do so, they may be different in their respects, but they mostly preach the same message of a supreme God.

Do you in your heart really believe that all of them do not rely on some sort of faith? They all are very different, but all rely on faith to an extent. None of them are science books.

Philip Berg, a rabbi at the Kabbalah Learning Center in New York, proclaimed that the end might arrive on September 11, 1999, when "a ball of fire will descend . . . destroying almost all of mankind, all vegetation, all forms of life."

Creepy... two years later an airplane hit... that is actually very odd... but I have heard crazier ones like nostradamus (sp?)

[Philosopher]

Most agnostics you meet will do so, they may be different in their respects, but they mostly preach the same message of a supreme God.

Do you in your heart really believe that all of them do not rely on some sort of faith? They all are very different, but all rely on faith to an extent. None of them are science books.

Agnostics doing it does not negate the fact it is a logical fallacy. I agree none of them are science books, but they must in harmony with science in order to be taken seriously.

Creepy... two years later an airplane hit... that is actually very odd... but I have heard crazier ones like nostradamus (sp?)

"Ball of Fire" was being referred to a asteroid, extremely large and that will destroy all life and vegetation in the planet. (Much larger than the asteroid that made dinosaurs extinct).

[ManchesterFolk]

Agnostics doing it does not negate the fact it is a logical fallacy. I agree none of them are science books, but they must in harmony with science in order to be taken seriously.

True, which is why they are not serious, but the believer can always get off with the "God is all powerful and can manipulate anything" argument, which leads the debate into a stand still.

"Ball of Fire" was being referred to a asteroid, extremely large and that will destroy all life and vegetation in the planet. (Much larger than the asteroid that made dinosaurs extinct).

Yeah, I know, I just got the chills reading Sept 11. have you heard of Nostradamus by the way?

[Philosopher]

True, which is why they are not serious, but the believer can always get off with the "God is all powerful and can manipulate anything" argument, which leads the debate into a stand still.

Yes I see that as a problem.

Yeah, I know, I just got the chills reading Sept 11. have you heard of Nostradamus by the way?

His prophecy about 9/11 was most probably a coincidence. Over half of his prophecies remain unfulfilled.

[barney]

Actually that prophecy wasnt Nostradamus.

It was by a college student Neil Marshall entitled "A Critical Analysis of Nostradamus. who did a study on Nostradamus, post 9/11 quoting how a Nostradamus type text (rather ironically as it turned out) could be used to be interpreted in several ways.
:rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes

which goes to show...the revisionist nature of prophesy is alive and well in 2007 as much as it was 1 and 2 thousand years ago.

[back_to_faith]

Right so the first prophecy could be:



Then Neba is mentioned, but after this verse:



Which makes it seem like a different prophecy since it was at a different time.




)

Dear ,Manchester you are at it again...When will you ever learn?!

though the Lord of the Bible told them to Exekiel at different times , (the years are different.)
but both have the same theme,and that one which time was (in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month) is nothing but a repeat to the same theme of the one was in(1In the tenth year)

the following will clear that:

Why The frist prophecy can't be a future one (as you argue):

First what was it?:

1-Against Pharaoh king of Egypt,has said, 'My Nile is mine, and I myself have made it .(thousands of years ago the pharaohs'kings used to claim that they made the Nile by themselves)

2-due to such arrogance and blsphemy the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast.

9"The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste Then they will know that I am the LORD Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,'and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene and even to the border of Ethiopia.
11"A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years.


3-I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands."

13'For thus says the Lord GOD, "At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered.


14-Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD."'"


the text of Ezekiel followed immediately by another supplementary information related strongly to the previous one,It is in fact not another prophecy,it is only showing the tool of such desolation....

It says:

1-"Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army.
after showing us the tool of the distruction then he repeats exactly the same of his saying in (1 In the tenth year)
that:

1-Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene

2-They will fall within her by the sword

3-They will be desolate
In the midst of the desolated lands;
And her cities will be
In the midst of the devastated cities.

4-And they will know that I am the LORD

5-Then the pride of her power will cease in her;
A cloud will cover her,
And her daughters will go into captivity

6- they will know that I am the LORD."


Your far fetched claim of 2 prophecies ,is unique and no Bible scholar ever dared to use it,cause it is absured.

[ManchesterFolk]

1-Against Pharaoh king of Egypt,has said, 'My Nile is mine, and I myself have made it .(thousands of years ago the pharaohs'kings used to claim that they made the Nile by themselves)

2-due to such arrogance and blsphemy the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast.

9"The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste Then they will know that I am the LORD Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,'and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene and even to the border of Ethiopia.
11"A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years.


3-I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands."

13'For thus says the Lord GOD, "At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered.


14-Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD."'"


the text of Ezekiel followed immediately by another supplementary information related strongly to the previous one,It is in fact not another prophecy,it is only showing the tool of such desolation....

1. Pharaoh can signify the leader of Egypt.

2. Sword can mean weapon in many cases. Messianic prophecies have swords mentioned if I am not mistaken. It means a weapon basically, in the context of how Ezekiel would understand. If God says in the bible, they will die by AK-47, how would Ezekiel and millions after interpret it?

3. Has not happend yet according to the theory I am proposing.

the text of Ezekiel followed immediately by another supplementary information related strongly to the previous one,It is in fact not another prophecy,it is only showing the tool of such desolation....

Not before it says:

And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, (29:17)

Which shows that this prophecy is from a different date.


If you believe Ezekiel in the Bible could never make two predictions, one involving the Nebachadnezzr cionqering the land, and the other involving the actual land of Egypt becoming desolate at some point, then I cannot explain anything more, I am only suggesting it to be a possibility.

I can list many predictions that look related, but are seperate.

[back_to_faith]

1. Pharaoh can signify the leader of Egypt.

2. Sword can mean weapon in many cases.



.

You are not with it Manchester,even the symbolic game can't save you this time

first:

the pharaoh which prophet Ezekiel sat his face against,and made a prophesy against and against all Egypt,is the one who said
'My Nile is mine, and I myself have made it.'
such claim can has never been heared by anyone else but the pharaohs and their kings who claimed that ,and that is supported by dozens of historical discoveries in Egypt. but the theory of man-god who created the universe and the rivers (Nile)etc...has been buried long ago.


second:

according to the prophecy the borders of Egypt from Migdol to Syene and even to Ethiopia.
such borders were the borders of Egypt that time,and by the hands of Nebuchadnezzar God promised to turn it into desolation:

6'Thus says the LORD,
"Indeed, those who support Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene
They will fall within her by the sword,"
Declares the Lord GOD.

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain.



third:

Regarding the sword,Yes sometimes could mean a weapon .but in the passage under discussion can by no mean ,something else than a real sword.

according to you ,the sword mentioned in the passage (1In the tenth year, in the tenth month) could means a future weapon as (WMD)

8'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast.
9"The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste Then they will know that I am the LORD Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,'


according to you, too, the sword used by Nebuchadnezzar was a real one ,as long as he may have attacked Egypt !!!!

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain.


what a hypocrite approach !!!!


you said:

If you believe Ezekiel in the Bible could never make two predictions, one involving the Nebachadnezzr cionqering the land, and the other involving the actual land of Egypt becoming desolate at some point, then I cannot explain anything more


Yes ,you can't explain anything more....It is obvious that you came a full circle ,after using such unique ,far fetched approach,that has never been used even by die hard fundamentalits who spend all day long searching for solutions for the incredible amount of Biblical flaws,inconsistencies,absurdities etc


I even wonder upon what basis you claim to be agnostic ,while in fact you use the approach of the die hard christian fundamentalits !!!!

I also wonder why you wrote your location England in Arabic? Are you from Middle eastern origin?

[ManchesterFolk]

the pharaoh which prophet Ezekiel sat his face against,and made a prophesy against and against all Egypt,is the one who said
'My Nile is mine, and I myself have made it.'
such claim can has never been heared by anyone else but the pharaohs and their kings who claimed that ,and that is supported by dozens of historical discoveries in Egypt. but the theory of man-god who created the universe and the rivers (Nile)etc...has been buried long ago.

Really? So it could never happen?!? I believe a ruler of Egypt that claims he created the Nile is far more believable then the Quran and Hebrew Bibles claim of a "ressurection of the dead"... Such theories have been buried long ago as well...

according to the prophecy the borders of Egypt from Migdol to Syene and even to Ethiopia.
such borders were the borders of Egypt that time,and by the hands of Nebuchadnezzar God promised to turn it into desolation:

6'Thus says the LORD,
"Indeed, those who support Egypt will fall
And the pride of her power will come down;
From Migdol to Syene
They will fall within her by the sword,"
Declares the Lord GOD.

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain

Please look at the red text I have undelined... "I will also" it seems like the God of the Bible is claiming two things, at one period in time, Egypt will be decimated (the land) and the other time, The Nebachadnezzar will conquer Egypt (already happend).

third:

Regarding the sword,Yes sometimes could mean a weapon .but in the passage under discussion can by no mean ,something else than a real sword.

according to you ,the sword mentioned in the passage (1In the tenth year, in the tenth month) could means a future weapon as (WMD)

8'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast.
9"The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste Then they will know that I am the LORD Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,'


according to you, too, the sword used by Nebuchadnezzar was a real one ,as long as he may have attacked Egypt !!!!

10'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
11"He and his people with him,
The most ruthless of the nations,
Will be brought in to destroy the land;
And they will draw their swords against Egypt And fill the land with the slain.


what a hypocrite approach !!!!

How is it hypocritical? I don;t really understand your logic at all. The one refering the prophecy already fufilled obviously means sword and the one referign to the future destruction of Egypt in the Bible means modern weapons.

Sword is symbolic for "weapon". Do you think all the weapons used by the Neba were swords? No, spears, arrows, chariots, were all used. Therefore the sword means the weapons of the specific force attaing Egypt. One symbolic reference to weapon is in one prophecy, and it could mean another in another prophecy.

Yes ,you can't explain anything more....It is obvious that you came a full circle ,after using such unique ,far fetched approach,that has never been used even by die hard fundamentalits who spend all day long searching for solutions for the incredible amount of Biblical flaws,inconsistencies,absurdities etc


I even wonder upon what basis you claim to be agnostic ,while in fact you use the approach of the die hard christian fundamentalits !!!!

I also wonder why you wrote your location England in Arabic? Are you from Middle eastern origin?

Well first off, I am an Agnostic, but I am just pointing out my specific theories. All of the "holy books" have absurdities btw. But anyway, On a Christian fundy forum I will argue in favor of Islam. I love debating and I love forming my own theories based on the Bible Quran etc, I like making interpetations. I'm not a Christian fundy so why would I care what they think.

Oh and btw I am black of the area Sudan and Ethiopia, living in england.

i'm VERY glad you brought that up.. because today i had actually read an article about islam, and i remember it quoting mohammad MANY times saying that the earth started 6,000 years ago. i wish i would have stayed on that site lol, because it was like an hour ago!!

Such a claim cannot be found in the Quran (unless I compeltly missed it)

[don532]

Conclusion: The Bible is not symbolic, but rather factually inaccurate.

Let me apologize in advance because this is off topic for this thread, but I wanted to offer something. Because some people have tried to predict the end of the world doesn't mean the Bible is factually inaccurate. The Bible's statement on the subject is:

From Mark chapter 13 on the return of Christ. I have not posted the whole chapter, only a small part.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

32"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

33"Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

The conclusion I draw from this subject, is not that the Bible is factually inaccurate, but rather if the people mentioned in the previous post that wasted so much of their time trying to predict the end times had paid attention to Jesus' words to begin with, they would have not have made such erroneous conclusions about the day or the hour of the end times.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming showing the Bible's factual inaccuracy by debunking a prophecy in Ezekiel.

[back_to_faith]

Please look at the red text I have undelined... "I will also" it seems like the God of the Bible is claiming two things, at one period in time, Egypt will be decimated (the land) and the other time, The Nebachadnezzar will conquer Egypt (already happend).

)

Manchester,being factual has never been one of your strong points.......

this time I will give you Biblical academic lesson for your benefit:


First:

Let,s concentrate more on the passage which you claim that could yet be fulfilled in the future,

The reason of the prophecy according to the Bible was exactly the same reason of the other similar temporary prophecies against Tyre and other sinful places etc....:

examples:

1-

Ezekiel 21

Babylon, God's Sword of Judgment
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary. Prophesy against the land of Israel 3 and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. 4 Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north. 5 Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.'

2-

Ezekiel 26

A Prophecy Against Tyre
1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.


and who will be the instrument for such destruction of Tyre?


7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.


Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel [a] ?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

3-

A Prophecy Against Sidon

20 The word of the LORD came to me: 21 "Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her 22 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'I am against you, O Sidon,
and I will gain glory within you.
They will know that I am the LORD,
when I inflict punishment on her
and show myself holy within her.
23 I will send a plague upon her
and make blood flow in her streets.
The slain will fall within her,
with the sword against her on every side.
Then they will know that I am the LORD.

24 " 'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

4-

Ezekiel 25

A Prophecy Against Ammon
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against the Ammonites and prophesy against them. 3 Say to them, 'Hear the word of the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you said "Aha!" over my sanctuary when it was desecrated and over the land of Israel when it was laid waste and over the people of Judah when they went into exile, 4 therefore I am going to give you to the people of the East as a possession


Now immediately after the Prophecy Against the sinful Sidon ,we find A Prophecy Against the sinful Egypt under the leadership by the sinful Pharaoh:


the reason according to the Bible for it was:

1-The house of Israel depended on the sinful Egypt,

Ezekiel 29:6 Then all who live in Egypt will know that I am the LORD.
" 'You have been a staff of reed for the house of Israel. 7 When they grasped you with their hands, you splintered and you tore open their shoulders; when they leaned on you, you broke and their backs were wrenched.

the same idea could be found in Isaiah:

"WOE to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add to their sin: That walk to go down into EGYPT, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in Pharaoh, and to TRUST in the shadow of Egypt! Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion" (Isaiah 30:1-3).


2-
The Pharaoh king of Egypt, claimed with arrogance and blasphemy ,Ezekiel 29:1
"The Nile is mine; I made it for myself."

Actually Manchester,you distorted what I said regarding such saying completely:

I said:

such claim has never been heared by anyone else but the pharaohs and their kings who claimed that ,and that is supported by dozens of historical discoveries in Egypt.

In other words I give my endorsment on Ezekiel saying, that the pharaoh which he prophecised against ,said that "The Nile is mine; I made it for myself."

The Pharaoh believed that he was god of the Nile, that he created the Nile.
and that is supported Historically .....
The Egyptians yielded to the Pharaohs as gods. They believed that if they did not serve the Pharaohs well, the Nile would not rise and they would not have a good farming season.

that is why God prophecies of a destruction at hand against Egypt ,similar to that of its sinful neighbours :

"Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt. 3 Speak to him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Ezekiel 29:1
" 'I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt,
you great monster lying among your streams.
You say, "The Nile is mine;
I made it for myself."

and

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. [b] 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.


I'm afraid Manchester may be your wild Imagination ,let you bless us next time of another creative idea that the Egyptians will be punished sometime in the future by the Idolatry and the wickdness of the king pharaoh who claimed the Nile to be his self-made.......If you think so then you need to listen to the words of wisdom God put on the mouth of Ezekiel
Ezekiel 18

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.


peace for All

[ManchesterFolk]

A Prophecy Against Tyre

I actually read an intersting article here: Not sure how much is BS:

http://www.tektonics.org/uz/zeketyre.html

Do you have objections to it? I'd love to hear what is BS, cause in all these articles written by an atheist or crazy fundi there is always BS.

such claim has never been heared by anyone else but the pharaohs and their kings who claimed that ,and that is supported by dozens of historical discoveries in Egypt.

In other words I give my endorsment on Ezekiel saying, that the pharaoh which he prophecised against ,said that "The Nile is mine; I made it for myself."

The Pharaoh believed that he was god of the Nile, that he created the Nile.
and that is supported Historically .....
The Egyptians yielded to the Pharaohs as gods. They believed that if they did not serve the Pharaohs well, the Nile would not rise and they would not have a good farming season.

that is why God prophecies of a destruction at hand against Egypt ,similar to that of its sinful neighbours :

"Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt. 3 Speak to him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Ezekiel 29:1
" 'I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt,
you great monster lying among your streams.
You say, "The Nile is mine;
I made it for myself."

BINGO! YES! Finally. Thank God or whoever is the Deity!!!! I discovered that hole in my theory a days ago (point it out if you have mentioned the exact point you amde right now) and have been waiting for you to mention it... lol. My "theory" :p is in shambles :giggling: . And yes before you ask I do have to much time on my hands, and I may be considered nerdy and an odd humor.... lol. :p I though you would never bring up that point and I was waiting to see how long you would remain oblivious to it, lol. Oh well, and please do point it out if I am an idiot and the first post you mentioned it and I accidnetly skipped over it. Either way i'll throw some reps ure way for gettin it, and u can neg rep me if i did skip over it and you have made that point that it couldnt be a furture prediction.

Now lets wait for rav to finish his trip cause im curious as to what hes gonna say. thirdwatches excuse was lamer then my theory i made out of thin air. lol. although, hes a smart dude but i think most people who put such a huge amount of faith in any book are kinda brainwashed (no offense) although youll say im brainwashed by "satan"... :p

[ManchesterFolk]

Back_to_faith, if you’re very interested in discovery of the truth, then you will be open to the information I will supply you with. If not, then oh well.

Please present your problems with assumptions that the author has made, and before you do.

I also, warn you to think about Egyptian history. The Egyptians rarely presented in their records when they had a downfall. Just like how many kingdoms at this time only recorded their victories, and great triumphs:

The Displaced Dynasties series by Jim Reilly is intriguing.

For more information, you should read these books (all four can be skimmed since they are provided):

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/

In 564 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon invaded Egypt, demolished every temple in the country, slaughtered most of the population & exiled all but a remnant of those who survived. For twenty years Egypt was left without a resident pharaoh. Temple worship ceased. For another twenty years, following the arrival of the Persians under Cyrus the Great, sporadic restoration activity was underway throughout the country. This rebuilding continued under Cambyses, following his 525 B.C. expedition to Egypt, and into the reign of Darius I.

There is but a single problem with this history. According to Egyptologists it never happened. The denial is based on an Egyptian history which places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

But historians are wrong. The fault lies in the Egyptian chronology on which the traditional history is based. That chronology, throughout the relevant period, is in error by 121 years! Saite dynasty dates need to be lowered by that amount, moving the dynasty to a position overlapping the first Persian domination of Egypt.

Here are links to each chapter:

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter1.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter2.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter3.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter4.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter4.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter5.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...omRICHTEXT.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter7.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter8.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...arChapter9.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasti...rChapter11.htm

The other books can be viewed as well from the same site with the link I first provided above.

[back_to_faith]

Back_to_faith, if you’re very interested in discovery of the truth, then you will be open to the information I will supply you with. If not, then oh well.

Please present your problems with assumptions that the author has made, and before you do.

I also, warn you to think about Egyptian history. The Egyptians rarely presented in their records when they had a downfall. Just like how many kingdoms at this time only recorded their victories, and great triumphs:

The Displaced Dynasties series by Jim Reilly is intriguing.

For more information, you should read these books (all four can be skimmed since they are provided):

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/

In 564 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon invaded Egypt, demolished every temple in the country, slaughtered most of the population & exiled all but a remnant of those who survived. For twenty years Egypt was left without a resident pharaoh. Temple worship ceased. For another twenty years, following the arrival of the Persians under Cyrus the Great, sporadic restoration activity was underway throughout the country. This rebuilding continued under Cambyses, following his 525 B.C. expedition to Egypt, and into the reign of Darius I.

There is but a single problem with this history. According to Egyptologists it never happened. The denial is based on an Egyptian history which places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

But historians are wrong. The fault lies in the Egyptian chronology on which the traditional history is based. That chronology, throughout the relevant period, is in error by 121 years! Saite dynasty dates need to be lowered by that amount, moving the dynasty to a position overlapping the first Persian domination of Egypt.

.

My friend, you obviously missed the problem under discussion:

Anyone wish to defend Ezekiel's Prophecy Against Egypt has to prove that it has been fulfilled in all of its details ,anyone claims that it has been fulfilled partially or yet to be fulfilled in the future ,is advised to save his time and ours and save his posts to another forum............

You hero who all of a sudden tried to cahllenge the whole academic work of Egyptologists ,and the serioud problem of that Egyptian history places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

claims the following:

The Egyptian Holocaust


In 564 B.C. a foreign army invaded Egypt, laying waste the country. Tens of thousands died. Thousands more, primarily the skilled and educated elite, priests and artisans alike, were taken captive and deported. A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived.
The physical structures of the country were also decimated. Temples and tombs were destroyed and looted. Cities were burned. From Migdol in the eastern Delta to Syene near Elephantine south of Thebes, 500 miles upriver on the Nile, the country was ravaged.

It was, quite literally, a holocaust.

Twenty years passed as the land languished, raped of its treasure by garrisons left behind by the foreigners. No pharaoh ruled to restore order. Another twenty years saw limited rebuilding and the gradual renewal of religious and political life. Temples were repaired. Training began for a new generation of priests and artisans.

The few traumatized survivors of the exile, now old, had only a vague recollection of the days when the priests were taken away and the population vanished. They told tales about the nšn, “the devastation”.



Does that fulfill Ezekiel?

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.

My friend,

If such Holocaust ever happened,is still so far away from fulfilling Ezekiel's Prophecy

1-According to the prophecy,No foot of man or animal will pass through Egypt
,Egypt had to be a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan.
any survivors from the Holocaust ,come through the door,the fulfillment goes through the window.
(A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived).

Alas, You have been victimized by the obvious exaggeration of Ezekiel,claiming that A country with rich soil as Egypt would be desolate for 40 years ,and No foot of man or animal will pass through it....

History teaches us that after any military attack whatever destructive it is,there must be some who survive and escape it and never surrender themselves to the aggressive power..........


The writer shot himself and his inspired writer in the foot,when he claimed that there were survivors of the exile whoes feet passed through Egypt.

[ManchesterFolk]

You hero who all of a sudden tried to cahllenge the whole academic work of Egyptologists ,and the serioud problem of that Egyptian history places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

My "hero" :blind: Did nothing except produce a work which he cites very thoroughly, and shows his opinions. As for the academic world of Egyptian history, they cannot even date when the Exodus happend and some deny it did. The Quran to the best of my knowledge says it occured. Let me ask you something better. In 2000 years, if someone finds a tape and it is USA propaganda that shows the USA going into Iraq everyone happy and the Iraq war as a sucess, we know that is not the case, but many experts would consider it history. The academic world is not perfect at all. Dating everything is a very tough buissness.

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.

Interesting. I see you have taken the liberty to decide exactly how the Bible interpreted. I assume you believe that the Pharoh was literally a great dragon.

"Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" (Ezekiel 29:3)

The Bible also doesn't really believe that the nations of the earth with come from "four corners" either, but it uses a device in Hebrew to refer to coming from all sides. Sucha device is obviously used here as well to describe carnage. To take every word completly literally is a huge mistake, because then the Bible is seen to describe things like the actual "Hand of God" sweeping evil, and many other things that we know did not actually happen. Verse 11 could very well refer to a symbolic way to describe a land completely destroyed.

A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived.

Since you believe we have to take this compeltly literally, the small minority which survived among the ruling pharoh escaped into a sorounding desert.

Ezekiel says: "Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush"

So what exactly is wrong with survivors escaping to the "sorounding deserts"?

such Holocaust ever happened,is still so far away from fulfilling Ezekiel's Prophecy

1-According to the prophecy,No foot of man or animal will pass through Egypt
,Egypt had to be a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan.
any survivors from the Holocaust ,come through the door,the fulfillment goes through the window.
(A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived).

How, so? By your literal interpretation of every man and animal, does not say that every person will die. It says that everyone who remains in Egypt will die, and no men will pass through. Since many were to be exiled and then brought back later, the passage does not infer everyone will die.

Alas, You have been victimized by the obvious exaggeration of Ezekiel,claiming that A country with rich soil as Egypt would be desolate for 40 years ,and No foot of man or animal will pass through it....

The same "History" according to many also teaches us that no such thing as the flood ever occured, and let me ask does the Quran mention the flood at all?

[ManchesterFolk]

I would also like to point out this:

[ManchesterFolk]

sorry for the double post above it was incomplete when i accidently posted it.

Egyptian dating although many try to form a consensus has never met one because if the facts were so straight foward they would have.

The creation of a reliable Chronology of Ancient Egypt is a task fraught with problems. While the overwhelming majority of Egyptologists agree on the outline and many of the details of a common chronology, disagreements either individually or in groups have resulted in a variety of dates offered for rulers and events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology

This conventional chronology of the rulers of ancient Egypt, taking into account well accepted developments during the 20th century but not including any of the major revision proposals that have also been made in that time. Even within a single work, often archeologists will offer several possible dates or even several whole chronologies as possibilities. Consequently, there may be discrepancies between dates shown here and in articles on particular rulers. Often there are also several possible spellings of the names. All dates are in the chronology are BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convent...ian_chronology

The reader is advised to include this factor of uncertainty with any date offered either in Wikipedia or any history of Ancient Egypt.

This warning is there because the uncertainty.

The first problem the student of Egyptian chronology faces is that they used no single system of dating: they had no concept of an Era similar to Anno Domini, Anno Hajirae — or even the concept of named years like limmu used in Mesopotamia. As a result, the chronologer is forced to compile a list of pharaohs, determine the length of their reigns, and adjust for any interregnums or coregencies. This leads to other problems:

All king lists are either comprehensive but have significant gaps in their text (for example, the Turin King List), or textually complete but fail to provide a complete list of rulers, even for a short period of Egyptian history.
There is conflicting information on the same regnal period from different versions of the same text; the Egyptian historian Manetho's history of Egypt is only known by extensive references to it made by subsequent writers, such as Eusebius and Sextus Julius Africanus. Unfortunately the dates for the same pharaoh often vary substantially depending on the referring source.
For almost all kings of Egypt, we lack an accurate count for the length of their reigns.

[back_to_faith]

[QUOTE=jamaaljad;731608]

Interesting. I see you have taken the liberty to decide exactly how the Bible interpreted. I assume you believe that the Pharoh was literally a great dragon.

"Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" (Ezekiel 29:3)

Verse 11 could very well refer to a symbolic way to describe a land completely destroyed.


Since you believe we have to take this compeltly literally, the small minority which survived among the ruling pharoh escaped into a sorounding desert.


Ezekiel says: "Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush"

So what exactly is wrong with survivors escaping to the "sorounding deserts"?

If it is claimed that there were minority who escaped to the "sorounding deserts",and such deserts ,is included in the land of Egypt(from Migdol to Aswan) then the claim:
The land would be an "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),to the extent that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians scattered among the nations

You claim:
How, so? By your literal interpretation of every man and animal, does not say that every person will die. It says that everyone who remains in Egypt will die, and no men will pass through. Since many were to be exiled and then brought back later, the passage does not infer everyone will die.

You see How your absured argument ,led you to contradict yourself?

the passage does not infer everyone will die,It infer that some will be killed and the whole rest will be captives,leaving Egypt as"utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),and it would be uninhabited(in every inch ,including the deserts and the oasis too) for 40 years,and no men will pass through it(whether those who escaped to the desert as he claim ,or any other foriegner)...

you complain of the lack of accurate history to prove the fulfillment of the prophecy.......in other words the prophecy can't be proven historically ....and that is our topic ..one could search historical documents till day of judgment and never find a fulfillment to Ezekiel's prophecy against Egypt ........................

the point whether does it matter for the bible believer to accept the validity of the Bible without the the proofs of the historical fulfillment of Ezekiel,is off topic...and you can make another thread to argue this matter if you like.
the space in this thread is supposed only to post
HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT TO THE EZEKIEL' PROPHECY AGAINST EGYPT

[back_to_faith]

Here a golden chance for you to prove Ezekiel ,without making so much effort in historical readings....

Where is the proofs that Egypt considered to be the lowest of kingdoms from the time of the prophecy till now?

Ezekiel 29:14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms

[ManchesterFolk]

If it is claimed that there were minority who escaped to the "sorounding deserts",and such deserts ,is included in the land of Egypt(from Migdol to Aswan) then the claim:
The land would be an "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),to the extent that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians scattered among the nations

Yes. The sorounding deserts would be outside the area of destruction obviously since they survived! Since we are taking the whole passage so literally. Of course, if we take everything Ezekiel says to be compeltely literal, in the english sense of the language, when hebrew and english are so different, Pharoh was obviously not a human but a "great dragon" as the passage describes him!

Ezekiel writes: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Therefore, since these people who escaped to the sorounding deserts left the area of destruction, they were in different countries.

You see How your absured argument ,led you to contradict yourself?

the passage does not infer everyone will die,It infer that some will be killed and the whole rest will be captives,leaving Egypt as"utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),and it would be uninhabited(in every inch ,including the deserts and the oasis too) for 40 years,and no men will pass through it(whether those who escaped to the desert as he claim ,or any other foriegner)...

No the passage says that the Egyptians will be scattered outside of their country, and leaving Egypt to the sorounding deserts which is leaving the area of destruction is considered exile.

Let us say the area of destruction is my backyard, and I leave to the sorounding backyards. I am out of the area then... The people who you are refering to left Egypt for the sorounding deserts.

the point whether does it matter for the bible believer to accept the validity of the Bible without the the proofs of the historical fulfillment of Ezekiel,is off topic...and you can make another thread to argue this matter if you like.

You need proofs for everything, yet Egyptian history and dating is such a mess by the way they recorded it, and it is so biased and slanted towards their own propaganda that there is no proof that it did not occur! There is no possible way to know for sure. To say we have set records and there is an overall consensus of what happend in Egyptian for thousands of years is just not a fact.

Here a golden chance for you to prove Ezekiel ,without making so much effort in historical readings....

Where is the proofs that Egypt considered to be the lowest of kingdoms from the time of the prophecy till now?

Ezekiel 29:14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms

The passsage says:

"It shall be the lowest of the kingdoms and shall no longer exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish their numbers so that they shall not domineer over the nations." (29:15)


Commentators explain that the "lowliest of nations" and "So that they shall not domineer over the nations means" in Hebrew is an expression of ruling like in Genesis 1:28 "and have dominion over the fish of the sea" So we can conclude that the overall connotation of this passage (29:15) is that never again will Egypt have the amount of control and influence it has exerted over the region. Look around a bit. Is Egypt dominating half the world like it once was? Not at all. Egypt has not ruled over the nations since the time of the prophet Ezekiel. Egypt has been ruled by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, Constantinople, the Saracen Arabs, the Mamelukes, the Turks, the French, and the English. In recent years, Egypt has not had princes. Compared to the power they did have when Ezekiel made his prophecy, to now, in the situation and the amount of power they do have, Ezekiels prophecy was fufilled in this verse. Look around the actual english text and seek out the truth of what the Hebrew stands for, of course you can always believe that Pharoh was literally a sea dragon like Ezekiel states in verse 3, just keep it on the down low.

[back_to_faith]

[QUOTE=ManchesterFolk;732154]


No the passage says that the Egyptians will be scattered outside of their country, and leaving Egypt to the sorounding deserts which is leaving the area of destruction is considered exile.



Really?!!

1-Your absured try to argue that the Egyptian desert which is about 94% of the total of Egypt,considered not to be a part of the land of Egypt ,is exposed by the accurate description of Ezekiel ....from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south) !!!!


2-What on earth,made those who esacped to the surrounding desert ,in a military tactic ,made them wait 40 years in the surrounding desert and never came back to where they came from,or any other place? Is it the fear of the Persians? If so then the prophecy still unfulfilled ...cause still some persians who passed with their legs through Egypt !!!

3-If you claim that the surrounding desert around the ancient cities of Egypt not to be part of Egypt,so the burden is on you shoulder to prove that the eastern or the western Egyptian deserts have been called(other nations) according to Ezekiel,and to name just one of such nations !!!




The passsage says:

"It shall be the lowest of the kingdoms and shall no longer exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish their numbers so that they shall not domineer over the nations." (29:15)



Is (not to domain over the nations) = to (be the "lowest of nations" forever)?

If the part of the world which was once (The roman empire) no longer domain its surrounding nations,that means it is considered to be the lowest of Kingdoms?

the commentators formulate comments,and you swallow them completely!!

Ezekiel ,and in his non-inspired language,forgot the fact that there is not one kingdom on earth to be considered (The lowest)
what was High long ago,is low nowadays and what is High nowadays will be low(not the lowest) in the future.

What is funny ,Is that Yhwh promised to make Egypt (lowest of Kingdoms),during the time of Ezekiel,but Egypt turned him the favor and opened its arms for him in his childhood......Are you amazed? let me show you how Egypt turned the favor for your god:

Your god (yhwh) when he was still a boy under 2 ,and before He knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right Isaiah (7:16),He fled with his mother to Egypt as a refugee in fear of being slaughtered by Herod

You see How the kingdom which he has made to be the lowest saved his skin,and was the shelter for him in his childhoom !!!!

You and those alike have been victimized by the sunday preaching,which twisted your thoughts,and planted deeply the blind faith in your hearts.

[ManchesterFolk]

back to faith, my friend Jamal who I invited onto this forum for some reason was merged with my account because I helped him sign up on my PC. Therefore, until then, I guess we will have to share an account until we can get it sorted out. He isn't even here right now, so I won't post anything under his name until he gets here.

[back_to_faith]

back to faith, my friend Jamal who I invited onto this forum for some reason was merged with my account because I helped him sign up on my PC. Therefore, until then, I guess we will have to share an account until we can get it sorted out. He isn't even here right now, so I won't post anything under his name until he gets here.

Ok Manchester

:)

[back_to_faith]

By the way ,I started another thread and was approved

The false prophecy of Peter's denial of Jesus


If he wish to debate me there too,he is welcomed and you too..

take care

[ManchesterFolk]

They are saying that they have reason to suspect I am "one person" because he uses my computer sometimes. (Jamal would never would have even found the site if not for me) yet I am even offering to show a picture of me and my friend to them although I would actually be kind of nervous show a pic of me on the internet to people I dont know but whatever. I'm leaving the forum, so I hope you have a great time and meaningful discussions.

[back_to_faith]

They are saying that they have reason to suspect I am "one person" because he uses my computer sometimes. (Jamal would never would have even found the site if not for me) yet I am even offering to show a picture of me and my friend to them although I would actually be kind of nervous show a pic of me on the internet to people I dont know but whatever. I'm leaving the forum, so I hope you have a great time and meaningful discussions.

Are you kidding Manchester?!!!

Who cares ,If that it was you Jamal or anyone else.....

Stay with us....and post with any name you like anytime you like...
and let the personal talking apart
If you insist to leave,then hope you a great time and meaningful discussions too.

peace