Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best

[England]

This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Million Protesters Gather In Istanbul

Updated: 17:52, Sunday April 29, 2007
Up to a million protesters have gathered in Istanbul accusing the government of planning an Islamist state and demanding it withdraw its presidential candidate.

Despite the Istanbul protests and a threat from the powerful army to intervene in the election, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, architect of Turkey's EU membership drive, said he would remain the ruling AK Party's candidate for head of state.

The protesters flooded the streets of Turkey's largest city to priase the army and denounce Gul and Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK Party enjoys a huge parliamentary majority, as a threat to a secular order separating state and religion.

"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," they chanted.

"Turkey is under threat from the AK Party leadership. We will not be able to express our thoughts like this if they stay in power," said protester Cigdem Yilmaz, 22, a student.

Top Turkish businessmen called for early parliamentary elections, which the AK party would appear well placed to win.

Many secularists are worried by Gul's Islamist past and the fact his wife wears the Muslim headscarf banned in universities and public offices.

But the AK Party, which has vigorously pressed liberal reforms and European Union membership ambitions, since election in 2002, denies any secret agenda.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...263302,00.html

[- Qatada -]

What these people don't realise is that they were once upon a time a group of nomads who had no land in the world whatsoever, yet Allaah gave them honor through Islaam - to the extent where they were the super power of the world for over 5 centuries.

Yet when they rebelled against their ownselves - they lost all their glory and honor, they turned away from the One who gave them honor in the first place.. to the extent where they lost their honor, their strength and became of the weakest of nations in the world. That's because Allaah gave them the honor when they turned to Him in full submission, but once they turned away - they lost all that.. because without a doubt only Allaah raises and lowers a people.

This is why we are in the position we are in today, because we have turned away from the religion of Allaah, we have turned our backs to enjoining the good and forbidding the evil. Yet through Allaah's Mercy, we are facing trials because we are turning back to Allaah, because one can only gain victory through trials and steadfastness, through patience. Once again the ummah will rise and Allaah will raise us once again - the same way the muslims of the times before, that's a promise from our Lord. :) May Allaah keep us steadfast, ameen.


There is a prophecy on this, the Romans will capture Istanbul / Constantinople - yet it will be recaptured near the final hour. Alot of the signs are already passing infront of our own eyes.


PS: If there are any turkish brothers and sisters, i don't mean to offend you or anything. :) I just wanted to explain that all honor comes from Allaah, and He will give it back to us once we are worthy of it. And this is why we face these trials today - Allaah is testing us to see if we truelly are worthy of it. Inshaa Allaah we will be soon enough.

[England]

The "Romans" haven't captured Istanbul. The Turkish muslims want free speech, a freedom to "express their thoughts" and dread being an Islamic state. Just take a look at Iran. Going around arresting people for not wearing their headscarf, for showing a bit of hair, for styling their hair...

The Turkish like freedom and they know that there isn't freedom in an Islamic state.
I've been to Alanya in Turkey and they were the nicest people you could meet. They were laid back, happy, very friendly and seemed to get on with everyone, non-muslim or not. When it did come to the time to pray though, they would do it. They were as devoted to God as anyone else but the difference was that they were tolerant of other cultures and other people regardless of faith. It really is a shame that non-Turkish muslims aren't like that.

[KAding]

This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.

Turkey is not part of the EU :? :D.

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[England]

Turkey is not part of the EU :? :D.

They haven't joined it yet? Well it won't be long. It's being considered and they're not far away from the membership. I would have no problem with them joining as I do actually like the Turkish.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

assalamu alaikum to those who follow guidance


islam came as something strange and will leave as something strange.

although it is inshaAllah not yet about to leave :).



may Allah forgive all those brothers and give them guidance.
they have chosen to follow their desires and man-made laws.
they have looked down at islam and thus looked down at the sunnah, and jannah. may Allah guide them

Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

this reminded me of these ayyats of surah baqara... may ALlah guide them.

ya Allah please guide our brothers...

[barney]

They might be. They just need to drop the human rights abuses.

Still, Good going turkey. a drop of sanity in a world thats utterly nuts.

[snakelegs]

This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.

i take periodic sanity breaks from the news. did i miss something? last i knew turkey was still not good enough for the EU.


if the turkish people overwhelmingly wanted a government more in tune with islam (not even a shariah state), the military would move to prevent it from happening.
how democratic is that?
(personally i am convinced that only a secular government is tolerable, but i am not turkish.)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Still, Good going turkey. a drop of sanity in a world thats utterly nuts.

assalamu alaika who follow righteous guidance (can someone teach me full sentence inshaAllah, jazakAllahu khair)

forgive me if i misunderstood but
why do you think it insanity for people to want an islamic state?

whats wrong?

have you researched on an islamic state?

[England]

i take periodic sanity breaks from the news. did i miss something? last i knew turkey was still not good enough for the EU.


if the turkish people overwhelmingly wanted a government more in tune with islam (not even a shariah state), the military would move to prevent it from happening.
how democratic is that?
(personally i am convinced that only a secular government is tolerable, but i am not turkish.)

I was wrong with that bit. Turkey aren't far away from the EU but they obviously need to sort a few things out first. The Turkish want to be a part of the EU. Turkey could be a model for other muslim countries including the future-Iraq.

[barney]

assalamu alaika who follow righteous guidance (can someone teach me full sentence inshaAllah, jazakAllahu khair)

forgive me if i misunderstood but
why do you think it insanity for people to want an islamic state?

whats wrong?

have you researched on an islamic state?

No you dont misunderstand. I am utterly against a Islamic state. (also against a christian state or any religious state).

Islamic States, (ones that cant seperate religion from govenment) are brutal & repressive. Just look into history. Protestant Puritan England, Catholic Spain of the inquisition, Islamic Sudan of 1880, Islamic Afganistan of the 1990's. All horrible examples of what religion can do when men claim divine inspiration for their laws of state.:enough!:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No you dont misunderstand. I am utterly against a Islamic state. (also against a christian state or any religious state).

Islamic States, (ones that cant seperate religion from govenment) are brutal & repressive. Just look into history. Protestant Puritan England, Catholic Spain of the inquisition, Islamic Sudan of 1880, Islamic Afganistan of the 1990's. All horrible examples of what religion can do when men claim divine inspiration for their laws of state.:enough!:

what about islamic makkah of 650?

please research on what a true islamic state is, then let me know if you mind it :)

[barney]

what about islamic makkah of 650?

please research on what a true islamic state is, then let me know if you mind it :)

Well as so far as Forign policy:Michael the Syrian describes how the first Omayyad Caliph Muawiya, who took power in 661, sacked and pillaged Cyprus and then established his domination by a “great massacre”. In the capture of Istakhar (Persia), 40,000 Iranians were slaughtered. Indeed, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Iraq, Iran suffered the same.Tripoli was taken by the sword.

K Armstrongs Pro-Islam book "Islam- a short history"

"Despite these victorys the soldiers spent summer fighting and winter far from home, they were taking less plunder....in 656 the discontent culminated in mutiny...uthman was assassinated"
Civil Strife
Which led to a 5 year civil war, including such fights as the battle of the camel, which Aisha attended. Ali after this handed out jobs to his supporters.
Muawiyya in Damascus hated the new state and had himself at the threat of violence proclaimed caliph in Jerusalam.
The Kharajites, the first "extremists" were "persecuted" by Ali, which cost him support and ended in his death by assassination.

Armstrong again. "...and summon all true muslims to join them in jihad for higher islamic standards.....others took a ...neurtal stance...appauled by the murderous divisions

Freedom: At this time the Caliphate delt compassionatly with those subjected to Muslim rule. If they payed the Jiza they would remain safe. If not.......
List of the pact of Umar here http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

Equality: Muawiyyahs reign bloodily restored unity and from 661 dhimmis were ousted from their top posts. He also began in earnest the slaughter of apostates. His court developed a rich and luxiourious lifestyle indistinguisable from any other ruling class.

The Early Islamic state, based on religious laws, was not a place I would like to have lived. Brutal, wartorn and Intolerant.

Over in England in 650 It was pretty much the same. Romano-British endlessly fighting and persecuting, burning at the stake and wiping out towns. All in the name of Christianity as the old Saxon and Pictish religions were annhialated.

The 7th Century, a mad mad world, but its a long time ago now. Time for mankind to move on.

[rav]

What these people don't realise is that they were once upon a time a group of nomads who had no land in the world whatsoever, yet Allaah gave them honor through Islaam - to the extent where they were the super power of the world for over 5 centuries.

Yet when they rebelled against their ownselves - they lost all their glory and honor, they turned away from the One who gave them honor in the first place.. to the extent where they lost their honor, their strength and became of the weakest of nations in the world. That's because Allaah gave them the honor when they turned to Him in full submission, but once they turned away - they lost all that.. because without a doubt only Allaah raises and lowers a people.

There is a prophecy on this, the Romans will capture Istanbul / Constantinople - yet it will be recaptured near the final hour. Alot of the signs are already passing infront of our own eyes.

Shalom,

Could you please explain these concerns I had with your post:

1. Do you measure whether G-d is with a nation, by how powerful their military is as a "super power"?

2. How will the "Romans" recapture anything?

[north_malaysian]

Where are lapseki (pro-secular Turk) and Abdil Han (pro-islamist Turk) when we need them?

[yahia12]

In the begining arabic world was traitor. the ottoman empire was big and strong. The arabs made deals with the west and britain.today sekularic is good.

Look at Iran and Iraq,completely devastated.

[Abdul Fattah]

You know the European press is so hypocrite.

When turkey tries to apply for membership of the European union, they write all sorts of stories explaining the problems in turkey and why they should not be accepted, one of those reasons was that: they are undemocratic, every 10 Tyear or so the army intervenes to stop a democratically elected religious party. Now the army made treaths to do it again, and some people came on the street protesting, and the European press applauds them???

the government was elected democratically and their aim was very well known. Just because there are some people protesting the streets we shouldn't throw down that government. The article says a million people, but I've seen other articles speaking of "hundred thousands" Either way, in a city of aproximitly 10 to 15 million people, that is still a minority. If the goverment truly messed up, we'll see that in the next elections, for now, we shouldn't be so cautious. What exactly is it that is so dangerous? what has this party done to agrevate so many people? As far as I know, all they try to do is rectify the many anti-religious rules. So guess what, they are actually helping secularity! An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).

[snakelegs]

An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).

i agree. i also agree on the hypocrisy. if the people of turkey elected an islam-friendly government, the military would step in. some democracy.
i don't think a shariah state has been proposed by anybody, has it?

[Philosopher]

Screw Turkey. If they want a secular state, then that's what they'll get.

Turkey is not really a Muslim nation, so leave it to be.

[Pygoscelis]

I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, so long as minority rights are respected, I support democracy, and if the democracy elects a muslim oriented government.. so be it.

On the ohter hand, history leads me not to trust any religious oriented government to respect the rights and equal standing of minorities.

[guyabano]

It really is a shame that non-Turkish muslims aren't like that.

Maybe not today, maybe in next century. All the upcoming generations in muslim countries who are now allowed to watch TV even SAT TV will see, what westernes Kids have and what they don't have.
And they will also want to have all that... so what will happen ?

[north_malaysian]

An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).

I do agree with the statement.

A secular government SHOULD NEVER BE anti-religion... they should be separating any religious dogma in their country's administration but not on their citizens' personal rights to religion.

I dont see any different between a hijab clad Turk woman and a mini-skirt ones. TURKEY SHOULD FOLLOW AMERICAN SECULARISM PRACTICE. NOT THE FRENCH.

Plus, I dont see Abdullah Gul or Erdogan proposing a THEOCRATIC state like Iran or Saudi.

In Malaysia, we have Islamists too who want a theocratic state, but it's hard to make Malaysia a 100% theocratic country as 40% of the population are Non Muslims, and 80% of the Muslims are Nationalists.

(P/S: I'm not a supporter of either Islamists or Nationalists, but I support anybody who will end up corruption, abolish draconian laws and upgrade the democracy level in Malaysia)

[north_malaysian]

I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, so long as minority rights are respected, I support democracy,

Yeah.... I want the Turkish government to give extensive freedoms to Kurds, Armenians, Greeks eg. recognising Armenian Genocide.

and if the democracy elects a muslim oriented government.. so be it.

I think a Turkish Muslim oriented government would be a moderate ones as they're not potraying a 100% Islamists.

[Skywalker]

I myself feel like they're selling out their faith for EU membership. But then again, I think they sold it out a long time ago, and we're just witnessing the aftereffects.

So, I guess it doesn't really make a difference to me whether they want to go completely secular or not...aren't they already completely secular anyway? Plus, if they have 300,000 people pressing for secularism, how many do you think want a more Islamic state?

Either way, I feel that Islam in Europe is degrading at a steady rate. Turkey, just like Bosnia, are just a bunch of Islamic nationalists, with a small minority of devout Muslims. Now, it's hard to venture a guess as to whether this will remain as it is, whether the minority will diminish, or whether it will expand, but as far as I see it, they would never agree to an Islamic state in Turkey, so might as well agree to secularism, but incorporate as many Islamic elements into it as possible. If they don't want capital punishment, then introduce zakat, etc. Avoid the controversial for now, and just apply the positive. If things get out of hand, like it happened in Egypt when the rape rate escalated dramatially and they had to apply the death penality to rapists, then they could slowly apply certain things and they would have a good excuse it do it.

Just some quick random thoughts on the subject...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I realise the hearts in which there is no faith will never want to accept an islamic state.



question: whats a dhimmi?

[Musalmaan]

a must-watch documentary video

Media Tags are no longer supported

[Musalmaan]

The Status of Muslim women in Turkey.

Media Tags are no longer supported

[KAding]

You know the European press is so hypocrite.

When turkey tries to apply for membership of the European union, they write all sorts of stories explaining the problems in turkey and why they should not be accepted, one of those reasons was that: they are undemocratic, every 10 Tyear or so the army intervenes to stop a democratically elected religious party. Now the army made treaths to do it again, and some people came on the street protesting, and the European press applauds them???

Well, in all fairness, the EU did issue a statement saying that the military should stay out of politics in Turkey. It is also under EU pressure that the formal role of the military in the government has been reduced. Besides, when did the 'European press' (whatever that may be) applaud the military? I just don't see it, not in the original article, nor in any other news I have read. Perhaps you could give some examples of the 'European press' doing as you say?

the government was elected democratically and their aim was very well known. Just because there are some people protesting the streets we shouldn't throw down that government. The article says a million people, but I've seen other articles speaking of "hundred thousands" Either way, in a city of aproximitly 10 to 15 million people, that is still a minority.

Yes, it is a minority. But by this metric no demonstration should ever matter since there never have been demonstrations in which the majority of the people joined. A million is a lot. It is quite a feat of the organization that they managed to gather that many people for their cause. There have been few demonstrations on this planet in which that many people marched. Still, you are correct, demonstrations should not matter as long as the demonstrators do not have a majority behind them. In fact, even if they constitute a majority I think the political decision makers should be allowed to ignore them.

If the goverment truly messed up, we'll see that in the next elections, for now, we shouldn't be so cautious. What exactly is it that is so dangerous? what has this party done to agrevate so many people? As far as I know, all they try to do is rectify the many anti-religious rules. So guess what, they are actually helping secularity! An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).

I agree.

[KAding]

question: whats a dhimmi?

A dhimmi is a non-Muslim resident in an Islamic State, it means 'protected people'. As far as I understand only 'people of the book' can be dhimmis. They have many rights, but are also restricted in some stuff, like preaching in public.

[Umar001]

Oh wow is this what people are wanting, poor woman studied tried hard got to goverment and as soon as she walks in people make noises and noises and make her leave.

Very humane, that's democracy?

Both those videos are amazing, i mean they get so much hassle for a scarf

[- Qatada -]

Shalom,

Could you please explain these concerns I had with your post:

1. Do you measure whether G-d is with a nation, by how powerful their military is as a "super power"?

2. How will the "Romans" recapture anything?

1) The earth belongs to Allaah, He gives it to those who are Just, and He will grant it to the believers - the same way He gave the kingdom to Prophet David and Solomon once they strived, sacrificed and showed their sincerety in Allaah. We are going through a similar stage, we will face hardship and trials like the children of Israeel until we fully submit ourselves to Allaah, then He will grant us victory and a huge reward, in this life and the next. But He will only grant it when He knows we are truelly worthy of it.


Allaah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah has promised to those of you who believe, and do good deeds, that He will surely grant them in the land inheritance of power as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion which He has chosen for them. And that He will change their state after fear to one of security and peace. They will worship Me alone and not associate aught with Me." (Qur'an Al-Noor (the Light) 24:55)

And also: "Say to those who deny faith, soon you will be vanquished." (3:12) and "When comes the help of Allah and Victory, and you see the people enter Allah's religion in multitudes . . ." (Qur'an Al-Nasr (the Divine Support) 110:1-2)



2) The Romans are the Europeans, the prophecy of capturing Constantinople [Istanbul] was already prophecised by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)


The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, told his community that they would conquer Damascus, Jerusalem, Iraq, Persia, Istanbul (Constantinople), and Cyprus, and that Islam would reach as far as the easternmost and westernmost parts of the world.

Recorded in Hakim, 4:445; Ibn Hanbal, 4:303; also related by Muslim, Tirmidhi, and Ibn Maja.


He thus foretold the conquest of Istanbul by Muslims, and indicated the high spiritual rank of Sultan Mehmed, the Conqueror, and the virtuousness of his army. What he foretold took place centuries later.


The stage we are in right now has also been prophecised:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida [guided] according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[Recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]

Allaah knows best, but it may be that Turkey may get into the European Union, and therefore it may become part of the Roman Territory. However, it will return back to the muslims once again. Only when Allaah wills.


You can read more info related to this topic here inshaa Allaah [God willing]:
http://en.fgulen.com/content/view/683/4/
Regards.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

A dhimmi is a non-Muslim resident in an Islamic State, it means 'protected people'. As far as I understand only 'people of the book' can be dhimmis. They have many rights, but are also restricted in some stuff, like preaching in public.

Thanks

and jazakAllah khair fi-sabilillah.


yes we wouldnt want people preaching falsehood but thats for another thread and another topic to discuss.

[MTAFFI]

what about islamic makkah of 650?

please research on what a true islamic state is, then let me know if you mind it :)

Who was the leader of this Islamic state, was he a man of today or a prophet that invented Islam? There is no place for religion in politics, as said above, as man who can claim divine inspiration for laws will always succumb to evil ideas. Man is a flawed being, no man has the right to pass the judgement of God on his fellow man, and that is what happens under a religious state.

[- Qatada -]

Who was the leader of this Islamic state, was he a man of today or a prophet that invented Islam? There is no place for religion in politics, as said above, as man who can claim divine inspiration for laws will always succumb to evil ideas. Man is a flawed being, no man has the right to pass the judgement of God on his fellow man, and that is what happens under a religious state.

So you think that God wouldn't send a prophet who would establish a whole way of life for mankind? Since you believe in Prophet Moses, do you believe that he never came with a political law for his people? Or how about the Messiah son of Mary, you think that he won't come back to this earth and organise a party to fight the party of the anti-christ?

Do you expect only the disbelievers who don't even have a set of specific guidelines or fear of God to only have a political system? So they can harm anyone they want since there laws keep continouslly changing anyway? Or do you think that God sends a set of guidelines for mankind so they can distinguish between wrong and right, good and bad? And what other way will this be except through a Prophet or Messenger?

[- Qatada -]

Freedom: At this time the Caliphate delt compassionatly with those subjected to Muslim rule. If they payed the Jiza they would remain safe. If not.......
List of the pact of Umar here http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

It's so ironic isn't it? First of all the article doesn't even have a source to it - i.e. Islamic Source.

Second, even if it is true - what does it say? It says that if the people don't go along with the treaty i.e. if they harm a muslim in the state - then they won't get the protection within the Islamic State. That's the exact same reason why they are in that state - to get protection! Is there anything confusing about that?


Compare it to the contemporary superpowers at their time [The Byzantinian Romans/Persian Sassanids] - they would probably kill the person even if they never did nothing wrong, since these people didn't have any fear of consequence for their actions. [i.e. Allaah will judge them on the Day of Judgement] And they made people pay much heavier taxes than the muslims anyway.

Check this link for more info on Jizya:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...zya-islam.html



Regards.

[rania2820]

:sl:

turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people(and Allah knows best).
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.

may Allah help us all. Ameen!

[MTAFFI]

So you think that God wouldn't send a prophet who would establish a whole way of life for mankind? Since you believe in Prophet Moses, do you believe that he never came with a political law for his people? Or how about the Messiah son of Mary, you think that he won't come back to this earth and organise a party to fight the party of the anti-christ?

Do you expect only the disbelievers who don't even have a set of specific guidelines or fear of God to only have a political system? So they can harm anyone they want since there laws keep continouslly changing anyway? Or do you think that God sends a set of guidelines for mankind so they can distinguish between wrong and right, good and bad? And what other way will this be except through a Prophet or Messenger?

I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our enviroment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.

[MTAFFI]

:sl:

turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people.
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.

may Allah help us all. Ameen!

Turkey sits on a fault line, they have always had earthquakes, this is not Allah punishing anyone

[vpb]

this is not Allah punishing anyone

Do you have any evidence that Allah swt is not punishing them (anyone)??? Do u have any knowledge about this?

[Sami Zaatari]

as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.

[MTAFFI]

Do you have any evidence that Allah swt is not punishing them (anyone)??? Do u have any knowledge about this?

I have evidence that supports my claim that Turkey and many other nations have been plagued with earthquakes and other natural disasters since the begining of their existence. Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people? It wouldnt matter if the people of Turkey were the most noble, religious muslims in the entire world, that would not stop the tectonic plates beneath them from driving into one another and occasionally busting and causing an earthquake

[MTAFFI]

as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.

do you live in an islamic state, if not then I suppose you have nothing to do with Islam either then right?

[vpb]

brother there are a lot of muslims, whose knowledge on Islam is so weak, so they have felt on propaganda and they see sharia as a bad law, even that they are muslims.

2 weeks ago the imam back in my home town held a lecture, and talked especially about the munafiqs, and he said almost all islamic states have come down as a result of munafiqs, the damage from a munafiq is greater than from a kafir.

Omer r.a was killed by munafiq.
Ali r.a was killed by munafiq.
Othman r.a was killed by the munafiq. etc etc

[vpb]

Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people?

I didn't make the statement that Allah swt is punishing, I asked you if you have evidence, bc when you make a statement or something anti the statement that is said, you have to give evidence. As far as me, I didn't make any statement. :D

[- Qatada -]

I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our enviroment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.

God has given us the freedom of choice so we can worship Him of our own free-will. This means that He created us to see if we would submit to Him when the clear proofs came to us.

Once the proofs are manifest - i.e. the Creator created us so we would be dutiful to Him, then the person doesn't really have a choice - they have to submit. If there wasn't a reason to submit - then why would anyone need to? It's like saying - if you take God's message in jest you'll be rewarded? Do you really think that's true? No it isn't.


Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is the matter with you? How do you judge?

[Qur'an [the Pen] 68: 35-6]


God sent Messengers' who warned mankind of the true purpose of their life, and that is to submit to the One who created us, the One who sustains us, the One who causes us to die, and the One who we will be ressurected by on the Day of Judgement when there will be no bargaining, but every person will be judged on his/her own deeds, and whether they obeyed the Messenger sent to them.


Those who obeyed the Messenger and did good to please their Creator will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and were too arrogant to worship God will be punished for their disbelief, and they will have no share of the hereafter, instead - they will be recompensed for their good in this life only - since that's all they strived for right?




Regards.

[rania2820]

as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.

:sl:

i couldn't agree more.they are basically rejecting the Quran and Sunnah and this is an act of Kuffr for sure! may Allah guide them all. Ameen!

I have evidence that supports my claim that Turkey and many other nations have been plagued with earthquakes and other natural disasters since the begining of their existence. Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people? It wouldnt matter if the people of Turkey were the most noble, religious muslims in the entire world, that would not stop the tectonic plates beneath them from driving into one another and occasionally busting and causing an earthquake

A country could be sitting on the biggest fault line in the world.and not have one earthquake if Allah didn't want it to happen.

[MTAFFI]

:sl:

i couldn't agree more.they are basically rejecting the Quran and Sunnah and this is an act of Kuffr for sure! may Allah guide them all. Ameen!



A country could be sitting on the biggest fault line in the world.and not have one earthquake if Allah didn't want it to happen.

So I suppose that Allah has never wished in the history of the world for an earthquake not to happen, no matter how good some countries may have been, is that what you are saying. This would almost be like saying that Allah is not a merciful God. Many civilizations have been wiped out because of natural disaster, Allah allows this to happen because it is vital to the existence of our planet not because a group of people are bad. What of the 200,000 in turkey that were protesting for an Islamic state, is it also their fault that they had such a terrible tragedy like they had as well or are they just casualties of Allahs wrath?

[MTAFFI]

I didn't make the statement that Allah swt is punishing, I asked you if you have evidence, bc when you make a statement or something anti the statement that is said, you have to give evidence. As far as me, I didn't make any statement. :D

I told you that I do have evidence that this country sits on a fault line and has been plagued by this sort of thing since the creation of earth, it is not because any group of people live there. To think in such a manner is really pretty primitive.

[- Qatada -]

So I suppose that Allah has never wished in the history of the world for an earthquake not to happen, no matter how good some countries may have been, is that what you are saying. This would almost be like saying that Allah is not a merciful God. Many civilizations have been wiped out because of natural disaster, Allah allows this to happen because it is vital to the existence of our planet not because a group of people are bad. What of the 200,000 in turkey that were protesting for an Islamic state, is it also their fault that they had such a terrible tragedy like they had as well or are they just casualties of Allahs wrath?

Allaah punishes a people once the evil becomes widespread. This is what He did for the nations before, and again - i'll give you the example of the Children of Israeel who were punished for their evil deeds and disobedience to the Messenger. You believe this to be true anyway since you're a christian and believe in the Old Testament.

Once Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) if God would punish a people even if there were good among them? He said yes, if the evil becomes widespread. Why? Because the people who are obedient to God also have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil (which was also the job of the Prophets), and when this isn't practised, evil becomes even more widespread and therefore Allaah gives them a limited amount of time to mend their ways, repent and submit to God. If they persist in their sins - then God punishes them. Why shouldn't He? If they're trangsgressing the limits set by Him?


Then the people will be raised back to God on the Day of Judgement, and then those who believed and did good will be rewarded for their good, but those who rejected the truth will be punished for their evil.



Regards.

[MTAFFI]

God has given us the freedom of choice so we can worship Him of our own free-will. This means that He created us to see if we would submit to Him when the clear proofs came to us.

Once the proofs are manifest - i.e. the Creator created us so we would be dutiful to Him, then the person doesn't really have a choice - they have to submit. If there wasn't a reason to submit - then why would anyone need to? It's like saying - if you take God's message in jest you'll be rewarded? Do you really think that's true? No it isn't.


Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is the matter with you? How do you judge?

[Qur'an [the Pen] 68: 35-6]


God sent Messengers' who warned mankind of the true purpose of their life, and that is to submit to the One who created us, the One who sustains us, the One who causes us to die, and the One who we will be ressurected by on the Day of Judgement when there will be no bargaining, but every person will be judged on his/her own deeds, and whether they obeyed the Messenger sent to them.


Those who obeyed the Messenger and did good to please their Creator will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and were too arrogant to worship God will be punished for their disbelief, and they will have no share of the hereafter, instead - they will be recompensed for their good in this life only - since that's all they strived for right?




Regards.

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

[MTAFFI]

Allaah punishes a people once the evil becomes widespread. This is what He did for the nations before, and again - i'll give you the example of the Children of Israeel who were punished for their evil deeds and disobedience to the Messenger. You believe this to be true anyway since you're a christian and believe in the Old Testament.

Once Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) if God would punish a people even if there were good among them? He said yes, if the evil becomes widespread. Why? Because the people who are obedient to God also have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil (which was also the job of the Prophets), and when this isn't practised, evil becomes even more widespread and therefore Allaah gives them a limited amount of time to mend their ways, repent and submit to God. If they persist in their sins - then God punishes them. Why shouldn't He? If they're trangsgressing the limits set by Him?


Then the people will be raised back to God on the Day of Judgement, and then those who believed and did good will be rewarded for their good, but those who rejected the truth will be punished for their evil.



Regards.

Please explain tornado alley for me then, is this God punishing these people every year? Even though there is not widespread evil in this area? Even though in many areas there are no people in these areas. I dont believe so, it is just natural occurances that have been proven by science in fact. The same goes for turkey and all the other places these things happen. To say that it is not a natural occurance is just blind. Some things may happen that are Gods will but to say that the Earthquake in Turkey happened because the people dont want an islamic state is just plain dumb

[- Qatada -]

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

Politics isn't dirty :) Allaah has sent us a Messenger who ran a state in Medina with Justice and fairness, whether it was justice for the Muslims or Non Muslims. And since God sent a Messenger to tell us the difference between wrong and right - He also explained to us how to run our own state - why shouldn't that be if we want to practise our religion freely? Those who don't want to practise it can simply leave can't they? That's the simple answer.

That's the reason why the Muslims at the time of God's Messenger left their home city of Makkah and moved to Medina - out of their own free will since they were being tortured for practising their religion in Makkah. So anyone who doesn't like Islaam doesn't need to get involved, and those who want to practise their religion freely without fear of persecution from the disbelievers - they can move to a state where the law of God is being applied.



Regards.

[- Qatada -]

Please explain tornado alley for me then, is this God punishing these people every year? Even though there is not widespread evil in this area? Even though in many areas there are no people in these areas. I dont believe so, it is just natural occurances that have been proven by science in fact. The same goes for turkey and all the other places these things happen. To say that it is not a natural occurance is just blind. Some things may happen that are Gods will but to say that the Earthquake in Turkey happened because the people dont want an islamic state is just plain dumb

Some things are caused by Allaah for a greater benefit, we may not know of that greater benefit yet. However there may be a great wisdom behind that - which we don't know of yet.

Therefore not all these natural occurences have to be punishments from Allaah, yet at the same time - we should believe in Him and remain obedient so we are saved from His punishment of this life and the hereafter, and so we can be rewarded with a great reward in this life and the next.



Regards.

[MTAFFI]

Politics isn't dirty :) Allaah has sent us a Messenger who ran a state in Medina with Justice and fairness, whether it was justice for the Muslims or Non Muslims. And since God sent a Messenger to tell us the difference between wrong and right - He also explained to us how to run our own state - why shouldn't that be if we want to practise our religion freely? Those who don't want to practise it can simply leave can't they? That's the simple answer.

That's the reason why the Muslims at the time of God's Messenger left their home city of Makkah and moved to Medina - out of their own free will since they were being tortured for practising their religion in Makkah. So anyone who doesn't like Islaam doesn't need to get involved, and those who want to practise their religion freely without fear of persecution from the disbelievers - they can move to a state where the law of God is being applied.



Regards.

Politics are without a doubt dirty, Islamic law may have been as pure as the religion when it was executed by a prophet that was sent from God, but this is my point. Do you know of any prophets sent here today? Do you know of a single man on Earth that is free of sin, that is uncorruptable, that has the ability to execute the law of God without bias, outside interference, without evil? If you say you do, then I dont know if I believe you. Politics are dirty because the give a man power, and when man gets power he almost inevitably becomes corrupted by his power. If you combine this with religion, then you are corrupting the religion as well.

People left their homes then because times were much different. Today who leaves their home to live in an Islamic state? Not near as many as those who leave and live in a democracy or secular society. Again I ask you to show me one Islamic state that has been run and could be considered a success, without any corruption, even the prophets state when he died, it died with him.

[noodles]

I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our environment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.

Let me clarify somethings for you.

1) There "will" be no laws if not for religion. Why? you may ask. Have you ever considered the possibility what you regard 'laws' set by a government can also be interpreted as a religion too? For example, if you construct a society, would you consider having a death penalty? is it right or is it wrong? Who in this diverse world has the ability to discern if a murderer should live or if he should die. Once you lay down your belief as the law, you clearly define it as religion. Even more so, if you make a group of people accept your beliefs it becomes organized religion.

Simply put, a government cannot function with out a foundation. And these foundations are taken from a diversity of religions. In essence its just a pick and choose of different cultures.

2) In response to "Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our environment" I suggest you rephrase that, simple put, sounds wrong.

Let me explain, if the laws were to passed due to the opinions of a select few, then, like I mentioned above, you can conclude that they are enforcing their religion onto others.

Simply put, you cannot establish a functional society without morals, they had to have come from somewhere, and that in the simplest terms is my belief.

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

But one cannot survive without the other. If no political system exists, man is free to do as he wills and what he wills is not always good. I'll be honest with you, it is up to the person to discern which political system works for them and it is my belief that Islamic sharia is the one that accepts equality. I haven't seen a proper example in the present day and age, and I most probably wont.

[MTAFFI]

Some things are caused by Allaah for a greater benefit, we may not know of that greater benefit yet. However there may be a great wisdom behind that - which we don't know of yet.

Therefore not all these natural occurences have to be punishments from Allaah, yet at the same time - we should believe in Him and remain obedient so we are saved from His punishment of this life and the hereafter, and so we can be rewarded with a great reward in this life and the next.



Regards.

Actually most things in nature can be explained for the greater benefit of our world. If you watch discovery channel for a week straight you can learn about all you need to know. Earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, global warming etc. are all part of our planets life cycle. They all have scientific explanations and with the proper technology can be calculated as to when or about when they will happen. Can you calculate with an instrument when God will unleash his wrath upon the Earth? I think not

In any case my point to that whole comment was to say to whoever that the Earthquake in Turkey was not punishment from God because they wish to not live under an islamic state. It was a natural occurance that will inevitablely happen again no matter what government is in control.

[- Qatada -]

Politics are without a doubt dirty, Islamic law may have been as pure as the religion when it was executed by a prophet that was sent from God, but this is my point. Do you know of any prophets sent here today? Do you know of a single man on Earth that is free of sin, that is uncorruptable, that has the ability to execute the law of God without bias, outside interference, without evil? If you say you do, then I dont know if I believe you. Politics are dirty because the give a man power, and when man gets power he almost inevitably becomes corrupted by his power. If you combine this with religion, then you are corrupting the religion as well.

People left their homes then because times were much different. Today who leaves their home to live in an Islamic state? Not near as many as those who leave and live in a democracy or secular society. Again I ask you to show me one Islamic state that has been run and could be considered a success, without any corruption, even the prophets state when he died, it died with him.

I agree with you that there are no people today who are prone from error. However, when the muslims elect someone to be a Khalifah - they choose the most pious among them. I.e. After the passing away of God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the most pious among the people was Abu Bakr, after him Umar, then Uthman and then Ali.

Now we know that they were really just, they loved, hoped, and feared Allaah a great deal. This is the characteristic one needs when they look for a leader since the person is scared of being disobedient to God because they know that they will be raised back infront of God to be judged on their actions and deeds performed in this life. Yet they also hope for reward from Allaah in the hereafter if they are a just ruler. This is emphasised in many Prophetic sayings, especially in regard to being just.


The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa [God consciessness] of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."

[Authentically recorded in Abu Dawud]


And if we look into the Islamic history - you can see the justice of the companions of God's final Messenger, since they had the best example to follow - Muhammad, the servant and final Messenger of God Almighty.

So we can have an example to follow, since these people were humans just like us. They weren't divine in any way, yet they were aware of God and knew that we are responsible for our actions and deeds. They were successful, in this life and the next.



Regards.

[- Qatada -]

Actually most things in nature can be explained for the greater benefit of our world. If you watch discovery channel for a week straight you can learn about all you need to know. Earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, global warming etc. are all part of our planets life cycle. They all have scientific explanations and with the proper technology can be calculated as to when or about when they will happen. Can you calculate with an instrument when God will unleash his wrath upon the Earth? I think not

In any case my point to that whole comment was to say to whoever that the Earthquake in Turkey was not punishment from God because they wish to not live under an islamic state. It was a natural occurance that will inevitablely happen again no matter what government is in control.

God can punish a people for their evil, yet He can do it in a time when He knows its right for the benefit of the earth for example - out of His eternal Wisdom. Only Allaah knows since He is the Most Wise, All Knowing.

[MTAFFI]

Let me clarify somethings for you.

1) There "will" be no laws if not for religion. Why? you may ask. Have you ever considered the possibility what you regard 'laws' set by a government can also be interpreted as a religion too? For example, if you construct a society, would you consider having a death penalty? is it right or is it wrong? Who in this diverse world has the ability to discern if a murderer should live or if he should die. Once you lay down your belief as the law, you clearly define it as religion. Even more so, if you make a group of people accept your beliefs it becomes organized religion.

Religion and Law are two separate things, although they share many commonalities that does not mean that one needs the other to survive or exist. As man has evolved and progressed over millenia certain things have been realized. Murder is wrong, rape is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. No one needs a religion to help them identify this, I am not saying that religion is needed, I am just saying that man can recognize this without the help of religion. The difference between the two is really in the minuscule things, for instance telling a lie, wearing a niqab, dishonoring your mother or father, adultery, etc. (Granted these things may not be so minuscule to you or I but to some they are and that is their choice) These are all things that effect an individual and not the society that the individual lives in or those who live around the individual. This is what makes law what it is and religion what it is. Religion governs ones self, law governs everyone. I hope that clarifies for you.

But one cannot survive without the other. If no political system exists, man is free to do as he wills and what he wills is not always good. I'll be honest with you, it is up to the person to discern which political system works for them and it is my belief that Islamic sharia is the one that accepts equality. I haven't seen a proper example in the present day and age, and I most probably wont.

I agree with you here, that if there is no political system than society would be sickening, and I agree that it is up to each person what political system works for them. I agree that there is no example of a proper Islamic state, and in fact there isnt an example of a perfect government anywhere and I dont think there ever will be. This is why I dont think we should mix religious law and man law. It is also why I dont like to see the Turks get repremanded by some on this site for wanting a secular society. They are no different than any other Muslims in this world, they wish to live in peace, and they know they are more likely to get it in a secular society where they are not forced to live a lifestyle

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ok I read this article before. Is it just me or are people missing the hypocracy in this article? One of the women who is protesting is claiming she'll lose her freedoms on a Sharia State. Alright well thats her opinion. Then she says she doesnt want ot have to be forced to cover and that she wants to be free. Err ok...what about the current secular goverment that are literally pulling off Hijabs from people wearing it? Its ok to make someone take it off or rather pull it off yourself but its the end of the world to have people keep some dignity? My God thats just pathetic.

[MTAFFI]

I agree with you that there are no people today who are prone from error. However, when the muslims elect someone to be a Khalifah - they choose the most pious among them. I.e. After the passing away of God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the most pious among the people was Abu Bakr, after him Umar, then Uthman and then Ali.

Now we know that they were really just, they loved, hoped, and feared Allaah a great deal. This is the characteristic one needs when they look for a leader since the person is scared of being disobedient to God because they know that they will be raised back infront of God to be judged on their actions and deeds performed in this life. Yet they also hope for reward from Allaah in the hereafter if they are a just ruler. This is emphasised in many Prophetic sayings, especially in regard to being just.


The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa [God consciessness] of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."

[Authentically recorded in Abu Dawud]


And if we look into the Islamic history - you can see the justice of the companions of God's final Messenger, since they had the best example to follow - Muhammad, the servant and final Messenger of God Almighty.

So we can have an example to follow, since these people were humans just like us. They weren't divine in any way, yet they were aware of God and knew that we are responsible for our actions and deeds. They were successful, in this life and the next.



Regards.

I will ask again, show me one of these Islamic societies that flourished and was run justly under anyone who was appointed by men. Again I will say, only God can appoint the one who will rightfully institute his law, everyone else is a scam. If you can show me one perfect civilization with a perfect political infrastructure, then I will believe you. Until then I will wait on Jesus to come back and straighten everyone up.

There may be examples given to follow but to date no one has followed them exact. If they did they would be sinless. If these "Kalifahs" are elected to rule with Gods word and judge on behalf of God (because law is the judge of things on earth) then they must be free of all sin, an imperfect being could not do this. Take a look at Iran, you will see what happens to "Kalifahs" when they are put into power.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^They dont have to "sinless." No is completely sinless. As humans we are prone to it. We choose the BEST and PIOUS amongst us to lead. One who is familiar with the Qur'an and Sunnah correctly.

[- Qatada -]

I will ask again, show me one of these Islamic societies that flourished and was run justly under anyone who was appointed by men. Again I will say, only God can appoint the one who will rightfully institute his law, everyone else is a scam. If you can show me one perfect civilization with a perfect political infrastructure, then I will believe you. Until then I will wait on Jesus to come back and straighten everyone up.

I've explained to you that the companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) were rightly guided and applied justice since they were the rightly guided successors of God's Messenger (peace be upon him.) The same way the best people with Jesus were his companions, similarly the best people of this nation are the companions of God's final servant & Messenger Muhammad.

Anyway, if you don't believe it - you can look into the history yourself.

Heres a good link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/companions-prophet/

There may be examples given to follow but to date no one has followed them exact. If they did they would be sinless. If these "Kalifahs" are elected to rule with Gods word and judge on behalf of God (because law is the judge of things on earth) then they must be free of all sin, an imperfect being could not do this. Take a look at Iran, you will see what happens to "Kalifahs" when they are put into power.

Iran doesn't even accept the idea of the Khalifah's - they believe in the concept of Imaamah. This goes into sectarian issues so i wont go into that. But their belief system is totally different.



Regards.

[rania2820]

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

Islam means to submit to God(Allah). If someone doesn't want to submit to Allah then why are they even Muslim? and in the Quran when it says "there is no compulsion in religion" that verse is referring to non-Muslim don't have to accept Islamic Law. But Muslims have to accept Islamic law. and it is the duty of every Muslim leader(although they don't) to impose Islamic law on the Muslim lands/Country.
If Muslims have a problem with following Islamic Law(Quran an sunnah) then perhaps they need to question themselves whether or not they truly belive in Allah and his messenger(pbuh).

and in the quran Allah has given man the right to enforce islamic law on the muslims.to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

[MTAFFI]

I've explained to you that the companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) were rightly guided and applied justice since they were the rightly guided successors of God's Messenger (peace be upon him.) The same way the best people with Jesus were his companions, similarly the best people of this nation are the companions of God's final servant & Messenger Muhammad.

Anyway, if you don't believe it - you can look into the history yourself.

Heres a good link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/companions-prophet/

So you believe that the "people" can elect someone like this? How do the people truly know who is the most pious and rightly guided? Is each person in the country thoroughly examined, questioned and put though some tests to prove their intentions? Or is it just assumed that because they "know" of God then they are Muhammad's companion?

The point I am trying to make is that you dont truly know the people that you elect into your government, and again I will say that power always corrupts. These people are not necessarily the best to run a country. In fact they may be the worst. So again I will say, only Allah can appoint someone to rule with his word, and that being is Jesus. He is not here, so religious rule will fail and crumble under mans never ending power struggle within himself.

Iran doesn't even accept the idea of the Khalifah's - they believe in the concept of Imaamah. This goes into sectarian issues so i wont go into that. But their belief system is totally different.

Regards.

This is very good information, I apologize for my ignorance in regard to sectarian issue. Thank you for the knowledge.:D

[MTAFFI]

Islam means to submit to God(Allah). If someone doesn't want to submit to Allah then why are they even Muslim? and in the Quran when it says "there is no compulsion in religion" that verse is referring to non-Muslim don't have to accept Islamic Law. But Muslims have to accept Islamic law. and it is the duty of every Muslim leader(although they don't) to impose Islamic law on the Muslim lands/Country.
If Muslims have a problem with following Islamic Law(Quran an sunnah) then perhaps they need to question themselves whether or not they truly belive in Allah and his messenger(pbuh).

and in the quran Allah has given man the right to enforce islamic law on the muslims.to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

perhaps they dont believe that in todays world religion should be involved with politics, perhaps they believe that they can follow their religion in every way without someone punishing them for every mistake they make (in regard to their religion) Perhaps they are choosing the right path

[al-fateh]

The "Romans" haven't captured Istanbul. The Turkish muslims want free speech, a freedom to "express their thoughts" and dread being an Islamic state. Just take a look at Iran. Going around arresting people for not wearing their headscarf, for showing a bit of hair, for styling their hair...

The Turkish like freedom and they know that there isn't freedom in an Islamic state.
I've been to Alanya in Turkey and they were the nicest people you could meet. They were laid back, happy, very friendly and seemed to get on with everyone, non-muslim or not. When it did come to the time to pray though, they would do it. They were as devoted to God as anyone else but the difference was that they were tolerant of other cultures and other people regardless of faith. It really is a shame that non-Turkish muslims aren't like that.

Due, in part, to the belief in the separation of church and state, secularists would prefer that politicians make decisions for secular rather than religious reasons. In this respect, policy decisions pertaining to topics like abortion, embryonic stem cell research, same-sex marriage, and sex education are prominently focused upon by American secularist organizations like, the Center for Inquiry.[2][3]

:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

[rania2820]

perhaps they dont believe that in todays world religion should be involved with politics, perhaps they believe that they can follow their religion in every way without someone punishing them for every mistake they make (in regard to their religion) Perhaps they are choosing the right path

im not saying that muslims have to be perfect. but if a muslim is out in the public and he does something that is un-islamic he should not be allowed to commit sin in front of others in public.as his commitng sin might influence other muslims to do the haraam.

[MTAFFI]

im not saying that muslims have to be perfect. but if a muslim is out in the public and he does something that is un-islamic he should not be allowed to commit sin in front of others in public.as his commitng sin might influence other muslims to do the haraam.

if he chooses to sin or accidentally sins, then what should be done? Also what if the person who commits the so called sin is not Muslim, is he then punished as well, even though he may not share the same beliefs. If the non Muslims commit sins they cannot be punished since they dont follow islam, so do they not influence?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It depends what kind of sin. If its anything immoral or some gruesome crime then there will be consequences. The way Christians worship God according to Islam is a sin, but thats part of their faith. And under Islamic Law, they are allowed to practice their faith freely. You get me? I hope thats right. Correct me if if I've made mistakes guys...thanks :D

Peace

[England]

:sl:

turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people(and Allah knows best).
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.

may Allah help us all. Ameen!

That's just rubbish. The scientific reason for the earthquakes is Turkey is located midway between the equator and the North Pole. Not every disaster is from God and I'm absolutely positive that the REAL God wouldn't harm anyone just because they don't worship or follow Islam.

Britain isn't Islamic so don't we get too many natural disasters?

[MTAFFI]

It depends what kind of sin. If its anything immoral or some gruesome crime then there will be consequences. The way Christians worship God according to Islam is a sin, but thats part of their faith. And under Islamic Law, they are allowed to practice their faith freely. You get me? I hope thats right. Correct me if if I've made mistakes guys...thanks :D

Peace

That is also true in secular society, so then what is the difference?

[snakelegs]

i may be ignorant but as far as i know, nobody is proposing to make turkey an islamic country, ruled by shariah. isn't want they want simply to have a government that does is not hostile to religion?
if i'm right, how is that a threat to anyone? is it right now that in a muslim majority country women are forbidden to wear headscarves in school and government offices? isn't that every bit as bad as forcing women to wear it? unless i'm badly uninformed (possible) i don't think they are talking about forcing anybody.
if the majority of the people of turkey want a more islamic-friendly government - why shouldn't they have a right to elect one?
of course, if they did, the military would swing into action. turkish secularism is a far cry from u.s. seclarism. secularism at gun point is anti-religion, not secularism.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Of course I'm free to call it un islamic because it is. I think I know my religion better than you :) I'm right because thats what an Islamic State allows. I'm not talking about the so called Muslim country, I'm talking about Islam itself.
If you choose not to believe, it's either that you dont understand or it's out of ignorance (generally speaking).

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

That is also true in secular society, so then what is the difference?

You tell me? I'm the one asking. Its no different with the secular government. Like I said, it's ok to make someone take of their hijab, which they hold close to themself as their dignity, but its not ok for someone to have some shame.

if i'm right, how is that a threat to anyone? is it right now that in a muslim majority country women are forbidden to wear headscarves in school and government offices? isn't that every bit as bad as forcing women to wear it? unless i'm badly uninformed (possible) i don't think they are talking about forcing anybody.

Yes, your correct snakelegs. That's exactly what they are doing there. I also said the same thing 2 pages ago.

[Bittersteel]

this is exactly why I hate secularism,extremism of any type to be more exact.
I always laugh when Non-Muslims say Turkey should be a model for the entire Islamic world.Obviously we understand why they say and want such things to happen.
Living in a liberal,secular country,I must say liberalism is good but extremism of secularism is not acceptable.

[bro_ali1]

Turkey is suppose to be a Muslim country. The people that live in turkey and who govern it are far from being good Muslims.

i have seen/met have friends who are Turkish - i have never been to turkey myself but i have heard from Turkish people of what life is like in Turkey. I agree with most of the comments in this thread on how can Turkish people call themselves Muslims yet go against an Islamic state? does this make sense?!?!

ok now this may only be a hunch, but i think the Turkish people want to go away from a Muslim state because they want to drink beer, and fool around with women - which they are renowned for doing.

I am a Pakistani, and would also say that Pakistan is heading towards whatever Turkey is doing, it is going away from the laws of the Nobel Quran.

this is very sad.

i recommend a Turkish movie for viewing called ¨Ice Cream I Scream¨, which i think does contain quite a bit of truth of the Turkish muslim culture (way of thinking) as it stands.

[rania2820]

if he chooses to sin or accidentally sins, then what should be done? Also what if the person who commits the so called sin is not Muslim, is he then punished as well, even though he may not share the same beliefs. If the non Muslims commit sins they cannot be punished since they dont follow islam, so do they not influence?

if a muslims sins in a country that is under islamic law then he should be punished for the crime he has done according to what the Quran and sunnah says(different punishments for different crimes in islam).
and as for non-muslims commiting sin.under islamic law a non-muslim would still not be able to commit immoral actions (such as drinking, fornicating) in public.

[yigiter187]

Yeah.... I want the Turkish government to give extensive freedoms to Kurds, Armenians, Greeks eg. recognising Armenian Genocide.



I think a Turkish Muslim oriented government would be a moderate ones as they're not potraying a 100% Islamists.

you say that turkey should recognise so-callled armenian genocide....ı cant believe this.....do you believe that a muslim state(ottoman empire who spreaded and pioneered islam for 600 years) can do such a genocide,can kill so many people....when ı read your post ı understand again and again why muslim are so weak in world...:cry: my muslim brother believes in armanians but not turks

[yahia12]

the armenians massacre muslims.

[Amadeus85]

the armenians massacre muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

[yahia12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

wikipedia is not reliable.

http://www.azerigenocide.org/hist/hist18.htm

armenian crusaders with backup to kill muslims.

http://www.armenianreality.com/armen..._antidode.html

[Muezzin]

Guys, when topics get sidetracked, I tend to delete a lot of posts, a lot of people get upset, and everybody loses. So how about we all just stick to the subject in the first post?

[MTAFFI]

Did anyone see the article a few days ago where the US and the EU warned the Turks not to let the military intervene in the electoral process? I am looking for it right now and I will post it when I find it, but isnt it funny that while many say the US is fight Islam, we will still fight for a Muslims right to an Islamic government?

Here is the link
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...ion/index.html

[- Qatada -]

Did anyone see the article a few days ago where the US and the EU warned the Turks not to let the military intervene in the electoral process? I am looking for it right now and I will post it when I find it, but isnt it funny that while many say the US is fight Islam, we will still fight for a Muslims right to an Islamic government?

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. :) You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?

If there is an Islamic State, the first thing any superpower would want to do is get rid of it, since that unites the Muslims. And if that happens - it is a threat to the other superpower, therefore getting rid of its build up is much more easier than to oppose a well established one.



Regards.

[MTAFFI]

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. :) You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?

If there is an Islamic State, the first thing any superpower would want to do is get rid of it, since that unites the Muslims. And if that happens - it is a threat to the other superpower, therefore getting rid of its build up is much more easier than to oppose a well established one.



Regards.

Why was Turkey a threat to Europe? Why would a superpower want to get rid of an Islamic state, just because it unites Muslims? Do you believe Muslims pose a threat to the rest of the world, and if Muslims are united in Turkey do you really think turkey would ever be a threat to the US?

To be honest muslims not being united is a much bigger "threat" to the world. Think about it, if Muslims were united there would be far less violence than there is today in the middle east. On one hand Muslims could unite and agree that war with the west is not the answer, war with each other is not the answer, and war in general is not the answer. Or on the other hand they could unite and say War with the west is the answer, and at least then the west would have a legitimate target, all Muslims. Either way it would be better for the world if all Muslims united and said they take one stand one way or the other.

[- Qatada -]

Why was Turkey a threat to Europe? Why would a superpower want to get rid of an Islamic state, just because it unites Muslims? Do you believe Muslims pose a threat to the rest of the world, and if Muslims are united in Turkey do you really think turkey would ever be a threat to the US?

On the Map, Spain is on one side of Europe, and Turkey is on the other side. And both were under Muslim rule at one time, so if they were to attack from both sides with big armies - they could probably capture all of Europe. I think its known as the Pincer Movement.

So all of Europe could be opened at that time in history. But history is history, but i'm just explaining the info lol. :)

To be honest muslims not being united is a much bigger "threat" to the world. Think about it, if Muslims were united there would be far less violence than there is today in the middle east. On one hand Muslims could unite and agree that war with the west is not the answer, war with each other is not the answer, and war in general is not the answer. Or on the other hand they could unite and say War with the west is the answer, and at least then the west would have a legitimate target, all Muslims. Either way it would be better for the world if all Muslims united and said they take one stand one way or the other.

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.

So i personally think that if there is already a super power in the world right now, they don't want an opposition. And therefore they would try to get rid of all means which could lead to another super power since that would be a major threat to them.


So anything which will unite the Muslims (over a billion people in the world right now) - this will be a major threat, and therefore it would seem that they would totally dislike it if muslims were to unite under an Islamic Rule.




Regards.

[MTAFFI]

On the Map, Spain is on one side of Europe, and Turkey is on the other side. And both were under Muslim rule at one time, so if they were to attack from both sides with big armies - they could probably capture all of Europe. I think its known as the Pincer Movement.

At one time many lands were under different rule, the same could be said of a Christian rule, or a barbarian rule, or a roman rule. This is all history, but I see what you are going for.

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.

But look at how quickly it collapsed

So i personally think that if there is already a super power in the world right now, they don't want an opposition. And therefore they would try to get rid of all means which could lead to another super power since that would be a major threat to them.

Why would a Muslim superpower pose anymore of a threat than the Chinese superpower, or the European superpower?

So anything which will unite the Muslims (over a billion people in the world right now) - this will be a major threat, and therefore it would seem that they would totally dislike it if muslims were to unite under an Islamic Rule.

Regards.

I dont agree with this, and remember if Muslims ever try to force their religion on others (which is what Islamic rule is) then they will pay a heafty price for it. There may be 1 billion Muslims in the world but there are 5 billion non muslims. Many of which come from wealthy power rich nations who would not be forced upon. However hearing all of this from you and seeing what the mindset is, I would hope (being nonmuslim)that any Islamic state be crushed before it became a threat

[Amadeus85]

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. :) You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?





Regards.

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Alb ania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

[- Qatada -]

At one time many lands were under different rule, the same could be said of a Christian rule, or a barbarian rule, or a roman rule. This is all history, but I see what you are going for.

Agreed.

But look at how quickly it collapsed

It expanded that quick and more within 200yrs, however it remained that way for over 13 centuries. Until the fall of the Ottoman Khilafah.

Why would a Muslim superpower pose anymore of a threat than the Chinese superpower, or the European superpower?

Because it's not just a culture, rather its different cultures/ethnicities etc. uniting under one banner of Islaam of; there is none worthy of worship except God Alone, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His servant and final Messenger.

If we look into history - we see that Islaam changed the whole world. And totally finished the oppressive Sassanid Super-Power [of the Persians] and was nearly about to defeat the other oppressive world super power of the Byzantinian Romans.


So the people actually know that it is a major power. Especially those who have seen history.

I dont agree with this, and remember if Muslims ever try to force their religion on others (which is what Islamic rule is) then they will pay a heafty price for it. There may be 1 billion Muslims in the world but there are 5 billion non muslims. Many of which come from wealthy power rich nations who would not be forced upon. However hearing all of this from you and seeing what the mindset is, I would hope (being nonmuslim)that any Islamic state be crushed before it became a threat

I thought we've discussed this with you plenty of times? How many times have i quoted this verse:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2: 256]

Islaam was one of the first worldly powers to actually allow people to follow their religion freely. Compare it to the super powers which are praised today i.e. the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids, who would actually kill a person if they followed a religion other than their rulers?

When the christians threw their scripture behind their back, thats when they started allowing secularism. Which shows that its not even part of christian beliefs to allow people to practise their religion freely right?


I think i'll link you again to the rights of Non Muslims within an Islamic state;

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...em-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...zya-islam.html
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Please don't imply something of which you have no knowledge.


Thanks.

[Amadeus85]

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.







Regards.

It was just? So you think that occupied Spaniards,Greeks,Serbs,Croatians,Bulgarians etc etc , were happy under muslim occupation?

[- Qatada -]

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Alb ania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

I agree that near the end of the Turkish Khilafah there was alot of erm.. chaos? And less application of the true Islamic law. We know that when justice isn't applied within a nation - then Allaah removes it from them.


As a famous scholar - Ibn ul Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The rulers are a reflection of their people - if the people are good and fair, their rulers will be good and just, if the people are corrupt and disloyal - their rulers will be also.



Regards.

[- Qatada -]

It was just? So you think that occupied Spaniards,Greeks,Serbs,Croatians,Bulgarians etc etc , were happy under muslim occupation?

Do you want to see Islamic History by non muslim authors? :)


Refer to this link:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Muslim Spain and European Culture
Islam in China
Tolerant and Humane Aspects of Muslim Civilisation
Quotations on Islamic civilization in India
Evidences of Equality in Islamic History



I hope you benefit from them.



Regards.

[islamirama]

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Alb ania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

Turkey and khilfah were destroyed cuz of a jew called ataturk and the western powersn involvement.

The Lausanne Treaty was signed on 24th July 1924. The British Foreign Secretary, Curzon announced in the House of Commons, "The point at issue is that Turkey has been destroyed and shall never rise again, because we have destroyed her spiritual power: the Khilafah and Islam." The foreign powers continued dividing up the Islamic Lands according to the Sykes-Picot agreement and the Berlin Conference. Unlike the Crusaders of the past, these modern day secular crusaders had no Khilafah to confront them. Within years of the Khilafah's abolition, they were able to extend their colonial hegemony over the resources of the Islamic Lands

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index...=524&Itemid=26

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk: The Enemy of Islam

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dawaah/message/1148

[Amadeus85]

Do you want to see Islamic History by non muslim authors? :)


Refer to this link:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Muslim Spain and European Culture
Islam in China
Tolerant and Humane Aspects of Muslim Civilisation
Quotations on Islamic civilization in India
Evidences of Equality in Islamic History



I hope you benefit from them.



Regards.

You didnt asnwer to my question. Anyway, you think that if Greeks and Serbs had such wonderful time under muslim occupation, would they make all those uprisings against muslim invadors and occupants? :)

[Amadeus85]

Turkey and khilfah were destroyed cuz of a jew called ataturk and the western powersn involvement.

[/url]

Yes of course, it is all because of jews.Thanks for reminding me :thumbs_up

[islamirama]

Yes of course, it is all because of jews.Thanks for reminding me :thumbs_up

i take it you didn't even bother to go read the bio of the ruler....

[- Qatada -]

You didnt asnwer to my question. Anyway, you think that if Greeks and Serbs had such wonderful time under muslim occupation, would they make all those uprisings against muslim invadors and occupants? :)

That can be used both ways, there could be a nation which was extremely just - yet there would be people who would still oppose it out of their own desires or wanting their own power.

So in this discussion - we dont blame Islaam, rather we look at the context of why the people wanted to revolt against the Khilafah.


By the way - i'm not claiming that the Khilafah was just all the time, because i know that one of the reasons why it fell was out of Allaah Almighty's eternal Wisdom, since we know that a nation falls once it becomes unjust. So that is partly why the Khilafah fell. And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

[Amadeus85]

That can be used both ways, there could be a nation which was extremely just - yet there would be people who would still oppose it out of their own desires or wanting their own power.

So in this discussion - we dont blame Islaam, rather we look at the context of why the people wanted to revolt against the Khilafah.


By the way - i'm not claiming that the Khilafah was just all the time, because i know that one of the reasons why it fell was out of Allaah Almighty's eternal Wisdom, since we know that a nation falls once it becomes unjust. So that is partly why the Khilafah fell. And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

Ok so i would ask you like this - do you condemn muslims occupation of Spain,Balkans and Greece? just like you condemn israel occupation of Palestina? :?

[- Qatada -]

Ok so i would ask you like this - do you condemn muslims occupation of Spain,Balkans and Greece? just like you condemn israel occupation of Palestina? :?

When Islaam enters a land, it allows the people to live there without oppression. It doesn't drive them out of their homes unjustly either. Nor does it kill its women, seniors and children, priests and rabbis who are worshipping in their places of worship [in the context of war nor its men at times of peace etc.]

Yet the exact opposite is occuring in Palestine right now and therefore i don't accept it.



Regards.

[Amadeus85]

When Islaam enters a land, it allows the people to live there without oppression. It doesn't drive them out of their homes unjustly either. Nor does it kill its women, seniors and children, priests and rabbis who are worshipping in their places of worship [in the context of war nor its men at times of peace etc.]

Yet the exact opposite is occuring in Palestine right now and therefore i don't accept it.



Regards.

Occupation is always occupation.It is always bad ! You just don't see that Greeks, Spaniards, Serbs etc etc, just wanted to live in free countries, without occupants. Freedom is important for everyone.

And thats why i am dissapointed that you didnt condemn those occupations.

[- Qatada -]

Occupation is always occupation.It is always bad ! You just don't see that Greeks, Spaniards, Serbs etc etc, just wanted to live in free countries, without occupants. Freedom is important for everyone.

And thats why i am dissapointed that you didnt condemn those occupations.

Yes, but when these people force the people to follow their religion - then it becomes binding upon the Muslims to allow them to have a right to learn about the truth and justice about Islaam, and how it is the religion of God Almighty. And if these people don't want to accept - fair enough, since there is no compulsion in religion. However, they shouldn't be forced to follow the religion of the country simply because it is the way of their 'forefathers.' Rather they should have the freedom to choose.


Regards.

[Amadeus85]

Yes, but when these people force the people to follow their religion - then it becomes binding upon the Muslims to allow them to have a right to learn about the truth and justice about Islaam, and how it is the religion of God Almighty. And if these people don't want to accept - fair enough, since there is no compulsion in religion. However, they shouldn't be forced to follow the religion of the country simply because it is the way of their 'forefathers.' Rather

Regards.

Here i can agree with you Sabililah ! They should have the freedom to choose. Both christians and muslims.:thumbs_up

[- Qatada -]

Here i can agree with you Sabililah ! They should have the freedom to choose. Both christians and muslims.:thumbs_up

Too right! thats what i've been saying all the time. lol

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

[Qur'an 2: 256]

Regards.

[Amadeus85]

Regards :)

[- Qatada -]

Great. I take it then that you condemn the retrograde practice of making islam the state religion as it is in so many Islamic majority nations.

I applaud your honesty and am secure in the knowledge that when the compulsion to adopt the state mandated religion is removed and people have a choice in their religious views, significant numbers of Moslems in Islamic nations will choose to leave islam. I trust you will support their decision not to adopt the religion of their forefathers and seek enlightenment elsewhere.

I glad we could come to a meeting of the minds.

In an Islamic State, one can practise their religion and apply their law [i.e. in the reign of Umar ibn Al Khattaab (a companion and successor of God's Messenger, Muhammad - peace be upon him) - there were christian and jewish courts, so the people could apply their own law. :)


Regards.

[- Qatada -]

I'd have to disagree as we see nothing of the ability for competing religions to exist or thrive in moslem majority nations.

You may be referring to an interpretive or as yet non-existent islam but I’m speaking to the only practical example of islam that we have: reality.

This has been explained by the Messenger of Allaah, peace be upon him:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah.

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html

We know that it has been applied with justice 14 centuries ago, and we also know that we have a firm set of morals which will remain authentically preserved for us by the will of Allaah, especially since they have been for over 14 centuries now. So once we get the guided Khalifah once again, insha Allaah [God willing] the justice will be applied.



Regards.

[vpb]

Ruggedtouch , I would advise you to what this lecture held by Khalid Yasin, it is about Purpose of Life. :) Be patient and whatch it till the end. :)

go the following url . the video is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.harlowmasjid.org/

[- Qatada -]

I don’t see any point in waiting for prophecies to come to fruition. The fact is, we have no solid examples of any prophecies coming true. There are great injustices happening now being perpetrated under the banner of islam: The on-going slaughter of humans in Iraq, the subjugation of women, the banning of competing religions in Islamic nations, the poverty and misery that millions of people are condemned to.

I just don’t understand the mindset of ignoring these injustices under the guise of wishful thinking that a savior may come to sweep away these things. The best way to ameliorate the idea of such injustice and to improving the world is to actively be involved in making this world the kind of world it should be. The onus is on us, not a father in the sky.

If you are comforted by your religious beliefs then there is nothing more to say except that your belief being unsupported and lacking in demonstration may mean you’re living an illusion. I’ve always maintained, I could be wrong, there could be a god. But the answer is exactly the same. Actively be a participant in making this the kind of world that minimizes human suffering. Saying, "it’s impossible" or "man can never achieve that" is clearly surrendering before you even begin. Would it be easy to do? No. Is it possible? Yeah. Of course it is.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The answer again is the same -- let's say you spend your entire life making it as good a world as you can -- is your life somehow wasted if there is no god? Does it count against you?

Misconception 10

Islam produces a lazy, uneducated society because:

• • all things come from God, and so fatalism is OK
  • modern technology and science are condemned

The reasons given for this misconception are false, and the misconception itself is actually refuted directly by the Qur'an and Sunnah. While it is true that the Creator is the source of everything to us, it is not true that this can be used as an excuse for humanity to hide behind as the following verses from the Qur'an state (translation),

[16:35] The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped anything but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?

[43:20] They (the idolators) say, "If it had been the will of (Allah) the Most Merciful, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge: they do nothing but lie!

Allah has taught us via the Qur'an and Sunnah that we all have a certain amount of free will. This free will must be exercised properly in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah to please the Creator. This is plenty of motivation for all Muslims to push themselves to be the most knowledgeable, effective Muslims they can be. If Muslim societies today are not meeting their potential, it is surely not due to their knowledge of Islam, rather it is their ignorance of this way of life. The importance of seeking knowledge and working are made clear in the Sunnah.


From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sunan Abu-Dawud, we find:

[9:1637] Narrated Anas ibn Malik: A man of the Ansar came to the Prophet (pbuh) and begged from him.

He (the Prophet) asked: Have you nothing in your house? He replied: Yes, a piece of cloth, a part of which we wear and a part of which we spread (on the ground), and a wooden bowl from which we drink water.

He said: Bring them to me. He then brought these articles to him and he (the Prophet) took them in his hands and asked: Who will buy these? A man said: I shall buy them for one dirham. He said twice or thrice: Who will offer more than one dirham? A man said: I shall buy them for two dirhams.

He gave these to him and took the two dirhams and, giving them to the Ansari, he said: Buy food with one of them and hand it to your family, and buy an axe and bring it to me. He then brought it to him. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) fixed a handle on it with his own hands and said: Go, gather firewood and sell it, and do not let me see you for a fortnight. The man went away and gathered firewood and sold it. When he had earned ten dirhams, he came to him and bought a garment with some of them and food with the others.

The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) then said: This is better for you than that begging should come as a spot on your face on the Day of Judgment. Begging is right only for three people: one who is in grinding poverty, one who is seriously in debt, or one who is responsible for compensation and finds it difficult to pay.

Also from the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sunan Ibn Majah, we find that the Messenger of Allah said:

Seeking knowledge is a duty upon every Muslim.

Knowledge of the Qur'an and Sunnah are clearly the best types of knowledge, and knowledge which benefits humanity is good as well. The Qur'an and Sunnah do not condemn the study of this earth and in fact the Creator encourages us to investigate the world we live in according to the following verse from the Qur'an (translation),

[3:190-191] Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are indeed Signs for people of understanding. People who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (with the thought): "Our Lord! not for nothing have You created (all) this! Glory to You! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire."

No, it doesn't.

Yeah it does :)

Qur'an 51: 56. And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).

Worship involves anything which helps one draw closer to God, whether thats by being good to the creation to please Him etc. any aspect which draws one closer to God; whether its inwardly or outwardly.

If you use the argument that people should only be good to the creation - one can only do good to the creation by getting these good benefits from God, i.e. wealth to give in charity, or health to be able to support others etc. So one should be thankful to God aswell as the creation.


The Prophet said: 'Whoever does not thank people (for their favors) has not thanked Allah (properly), Mighty and Glorious is He!' (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user49.html

You, all of us, can contribute to making the world better. Do you really need an eternal reward to invest a few decades to the human condition? Does it all "matter in the end"? No, but it does matter while you're here. And that's good enough.

Yeah, that motivates people to do good because there are also among mankind, people who want to cause corruption on the earth and they do many harmful things and spread evil without fear of consequence.

So why should God be so unjust to let them not taste a punishment for their own wrongdoings? And why shouldn't God reward those who do good to please Him?

And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: "If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but Allâh), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless (i.e. disbelievers), verily! My Punishment is indeed severe."

[Qur'an Abraham 14: 7]

[vpb]

Ruggedtouch, please take your time and watch that video to the end. :)

[- Qatada -]

As you know, I can counter with just as many verses that will contradict those you have posted. Ultimately, you need a threat of eternal punishment to behave correctly. Most people do not.

Sure you can :) then i can explain to you how they fit in right? It's easy to take verses out of context.

Values and ethics aren't faith-derived. In fact, faith causes the utter hopelessness that seems to afflict many of the religious persuasion.If you think otherwise, imagine this: Tomorrow, it is discovered for certain there is no god. Would such information suddenly cause you to steal from me, to harm me, to degrade me?

No it wouldn't since there is no proof that God doesn't exist. Infact i'm sure of it without a doubt. :)

If you answer no, then god isn't needed.

If you answer yes, then you are corrupt and immoral and that is your personality fracture, not morality's weakness.

Again, it's talking about a matter which hasn't got any basis - God does exist, and the majority of the world believes that. The atheists have always been a minority.

I’m always surprised at how theists have such a very bleak view of humanity, and the non-theist has a very positive view of humanity. I have hope for us because one can empirically see progress. One can see the lessening of slavery, an awareness of the environment, a more concerted effort to avoid war, better and faster ways to communicate, the growth of agriculture and medical expertise, and so on-- all based upon technology, all in spite of religious beliefs which do not evolve as man does (though people rewrite the tenets anyway)-- yes, despite the nastiness going on in the world, I have a far more hopeful and brighter expectation for man than many theists do, who ultimately need a god to establish for themselves the very thing that they could establish on their own.

Maybe thats because of your biases? Infact it is Islaam which brought Europe and the rest of the world out of the middle ages, and Islaam is one of the major factors which abolished the slavery system.

If you want proof to know why, here it is:

The Islamic position on Slavery: A refutation of doubts

By the beginning of the ninth century, Muslim Spain was the gem of Europe with its capital city, Cordova. With the establishment of Abdurrahman III - "the great caliphate of Cordova" - came the golden age of Al-Andalus. Cordova, in southern Spain, was the intellectual center of Europe.

At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

"there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)


The houses had marble balconies for summer and hot-air ducts under the mosaic floors for the winter. They were adorned with gardens with artificial fountains and orchards". (Digest, 1973, p. 622) "Paper, a material still unknown to the west, was everywhere. There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries." (Burke, 1985, p. 38).


Muslim Spain and European Culture

So in reality, its the theists who took the people out of the darkness of misguidance and greed into the light of the New Ages which we see. And that is all by the will of Allaah, the All Powerful, Most Gracious.

Regards.

[north_malaysian]

you say that turkey should recognise so-callled armenian genocide....ı cant believe this.....do you believe that a muslim state(ottoman empire who spreaded and pioneered islam for 600 years) can do such a genocide,can kill so many people....when ı read your post ı understand again and again why muslim are so weak in world...:cry: my muslim brother believes in armanians but not turks

Turks should recognise Armenian genocide, Armenians should recognise Azeri genocide and French should recognise Algerian genocide....

It doesnt hurt to say "SORRY"

[vpb]

Turks should recognise Armenian genocide, Armenians should recognise Azeri genocide and French should recognise Algerian genocide....

It doesnt hurt to say "SORRY"

yuhuuuuuuu, brother, if we start saying that we should say sorry to each other, then there is hell a lot of countries that need to apologise each other :p

[yigiter187]

Turks should recognise Armenian genocide, Armenians should recognise Azeri genocide and French should recognise Algerian genocide....

It doesnt hurt to say "SORRY"

turkey will never recognise so-called armenian genocide....because it is a big lie...each of the ottoman empires was a true lover of our prophet mohammed..theır only aim was to spread islam...a man loving islam so much cannot kill anybody..armenians were a truly trusted nation in ottoman empire but they hit us from our backs...they killed so many turks ın eastern anatolia..turkey offers armenia to open historical arcihves but armenians refuses this ,dou you think why?

[Muezzin]

Final Warning

I'm very close to locking this thread unless various people stop getting sidetracked.

[vpb]

:threadclo

[guyabano]

yuhuuuuuuu, brother, if we start saying that we should say sorry to each other, then there is hell a lot of countries that need to apologise each other :p

maybe that would be the solution to all our problems !

I feel so sorry ! :D

[Malaikah]

The Turkish like freedom and they know that there isn't freedom in an Islamic state.

What freedom?! Are you deaf and blind?! Muslim women can't even go to university or work in public offices with out sacrificing their head scarfs!

Is that what you call freedom?!:skeleton:

[vpb]

What freedom?! Are you deaf and blind?! Muslim women can't even go to university or work in public offices with out sacrificing their head scarfs!

Is that what you call freedom?!

it doesn't matter, the freedom that these secularist offer is like those cheap cheap watches, that are painted on gold, that if you drop it on the floor, the gold paint will go off and you will see just a plain copper :P , so when it comes to the rights of muslim they do it like that.

the thing is that the software freedom does not include Islam, you gotta update islam to a newer version (i think it's moderate islam)or maybe buy a different software :P and also you gotta pay money for this.

i think the issue with turkey and many countries like turkey that drop their identity in order to please some one who is destroying them would very good described with what benjamin franklin said:
"those who give the core of freedom for a piece of security, they deserve neither freedom nor security".

[Malaikah]

If you answer no, then god isn't needed.

How can you not need God when He is the One who created you and created this Earth, from which you find your sustenance and shelter?

If you are going to so audacious as to claim that you don't need him, at least be mannered enough to return everything He has blessed you with- starting with your body. I would suggest that you take your soul off to a vacuum but then again God created that vacuum and soul in the first place. :rollseyes

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Allow it. Think about it - i quote him non muslim authors (so its not biased) and all the facts, and then he thinks he knows it all by simply saying 'Actually thats not true." And then he makes claims that Islaam is anti-science without no proof either.


If he really thinks everything is created/designed 'by chance' then even a 2yr old can tell otherwise. But thats upto him. We'll leave it at that so we don't get bro muezzin impatient. :p

[vpb]

fisabililah, it's a miracle, you see him being created by chance 1 in 10 to the power of 123 , actually in that huge number he won :) how amazing. :) lolllllllll

[MTAFFI]

So the people actually know that it is a major power. Especially those who have seen history.

Yes but look at their most recent history, war and the day of conqueering land and making it your own is over. War is now won by the push of a button, conquering land doesnt really happen anymore. If Muslim wish to unite and have their own land, I dont think it would be a problem, there is plenty of land in the middle east that is probably ready for it right now. Muslims from all over could leave wherever they are to live there and I dont think it would bother anyone. They could live in peace or at war with each other in their own land and live under their own religious law, and it wouldnt bother anyone. But the second that they wish to impose Islamic Law on others is the day the button would be pushed. That is why Islamic land is not a threat to any superpower, in todays world.

I thought we've discussed this with you plenty of times? How many times have i quoted this verse:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2: 256]

Islaam was one of the first worldly powers to actually allow people to follow their religion freely. Compare it to the super powers which are praised today i.e. the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids, who would actually kill a person if they followed a religion other than their rulers?

Yes, you can practice your own religion, but you can do that in a secular society as well. You also have freedom of speech along with many others in a secular society that you dont in an Islamic society. Like the right to go to the bar after a long day, the right for a woman to go out in public alone, wearing whatever she wants. There are many examples of things that would be taken away, and these are rights that 5 billion people like and wont give up.

When the christians threw their scripture behind their back, thats when they started allowing secularism. Which shows that its not even part of christian beliefs to allow people to practise their religion freely right?

When Christians threw their scripture behind their back was when they stopped conquering other people and stopped forcing their religion on others. History has shown that those who rule with religion have been some of the most brutal rulers in our history.

I think i'll link you again to the rights of Non Muslims within an Islamic state;

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...em-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...zya-islam.html
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12

Please don't imply something of which you have no knowledge.
Thanks.

It seems no one has knowledge of an Islamic state, since there isnt one that truly exists according to your links. Show me an Islamic state that functions well and exact. The problem is that it is an Islamic state, so that puts other religions below Islam, it is not acceptable unless everyone is Muslim.

[Malaikah]

When Christians threw their scripture behind their back was when they stopped conquering other people and stopped forcing their religion on others. History has shown that those who rule with religion have been some of the most brutal rulers in our history.

Christians don't even have a divine law in the same way Muslims do so you can't compare.

It seems no one has knowledge of an Islamic state, since there isnt one that truly exists according to your links. Show me an Islamic state that functions well and exact.

lol. That is so not true. People have their own reasons for not implementing the Islamic law properly in their lands. It can be anything from $$$ to out side pressure to their own desire etc.

The problem is that it is an Islamic state, so that puts other religions below Islam, it is not acceptable unless everyone is Muslim.

Did you know that in many secular countries the President/prime minister can only belong to a certain religion? :rollseyes How equal, yeh? Oh, how about the fact that only Christian holidays are recognised as public holidays? Hmmm :mmokay:

[Link]

Turkey will become Islamic State soon enough.

[Link]

What freedom?! Are you deaf and blind?! Muslim women can't even go to university or work in public offices with out sacrificing their head scarfs!

Is that what you call freedom?!:skeleton:

freedom to them is freedom from God and slavery to their passions and devils

[north_malaysian]

theır only aim was to spread islam

So... why the Arabs and Albanians want to break free from Ottoman Empire.... I've seen Arabic drama series showing Ottoman cruelty to the Syrians. If Ottoman really want to spread Islam... why until today .. there are Muslims who call the Ottomans as oppressors?

they killed so many turks ın eastern anatolia..turkey offers armenia to open historical arcihves but armenians refuses this ,dou you think why?

That's why Armenians should recognise that genocide too..

[north_malaysian]

yuhuuuuuuu, brother, if we start saying that we should say sorry to each other, then there is hell a lot of countries that need to apologise each other :p

and what's wrong with that?

[Skywalker]

the banning of competing religions in Islamic nations

Really? Hmm...

In Ahmadinejad's Iran, Jews still find a space

[vpb]

and what's wrong with that?

\

the problem is that for some countries the word "we're sorry" doesn't do anything, cuz they have been oppressed and occupied by others for decades.
do you think after native americans lost their culture and traditions due to the opression they recieved, you can go back to them now and say "ohh, we're sorry that we have forced you to integrate in our society, we're sorry that you lost your culture, but it's allright we will take off taxes for you", do you think that works? how many many countries have suffered from opression....that the word sorry doesn't work for them. but it seems many countries say "i'm sorry" and they stab u in the back. at least to apologize you have to stop on applying oppresion on other countries. and it's a sad situtation , bc a country like turkey which was a superpower 200 years ago, that people got things from their culture, now have to cry for joining a group like EU....very sad...

[guyabano]

\

the problem is that for some countries the word "we're sorry" doesn't do anything, cuz they have been oppressed and occupied by others for decades.
do you think after native americans lost their culture and traditions due to the opression they recieved, you can go back to them now and say "ohh, we're sorry that we have forced you to integrate in our society, we're sorry that you lost your culture, but it's allright we will take off taxes for you", do you think that works? how many many countries have suffered from opression....that the word sorry doesn't work for them. but it seems many countries say "i'm sorry" and they stab u in the back. at least to apologize you have to stop on applying oppresion on other countries. and it's a sad situtation , bc a country like turkey which was a superpower 200 years ago, that people got things from their culture, now have to cry for joining a group like EU....very sad...

So, what is your alternative? Go on making wars and then loosing and again whining about bad bad oppressors?

I think, reaching the hand and saying 'I'm sorry' could be already a step in the right direction. Nobody mentionned, that with these words, everything is forgotten. Nothing should be forgotten, but people can forgive and the upcoming generation could already make changings instead of getting again brainwashed, so that this hatred from both sides can persist.

Time can heal all wounds

[guyabano]

Christians don't even have a divine law in the same way Muslims do so you can't compare.

what is a divine law? :?

Oh, how about the fact that only Christian holidays are recognised as public holidays? Hmmm :mmokay:

ermm, maybe because it is a christian country? :rollseyes

[vpb]

So, what is your alternative? Go on making wars and then loosing and again whining about bad bad oppressors?

dude :) i just wrote the whole post which is against the wars, cuz i just explained how people lost cultures, due to opression. :)

I think, reaching the hand and saying 'I'm sorry' could be already a step in the right direction. Nobody mentionned, that with these words, everything is forgotten. Nothing should be forgotten, but people can forgive and the upcoming generation could already make changings instead of getting again brainwashed, so that this hatred from both sides can persist.

that's what I said, but when you say to someone 'i'm sorry' you should not do it again, and not saying sorry and then do it again. :) please check the history in past 100 years and see who started all the wars that have been going on and the same people come and try to teach us about democracy :) Islam is the first one that applied real democracy, 1400 years ago, were women had rights, animals had rights , black and white people ate, prayed together, building of other faiths were kept , so if people choose they could go, except that had to pay tax as a non muslim .....many and many things that the west has introduced last 100 years. :)

[- Qatada -]

what is a divine law? :?

A law from God. :)

ermm, maybe because it is a christian country? :rollseyes

How can it be a christian country if it doesn't even apply the law of Jesus son of Mary? :?

[- Qatada -]

Real democracy? So what’s with this dhimmitude thing, then? Would your version of democracy include 1,400 years of offensive jihad that at one point brought Moslem holy warriors™ the shores of Europe?

Do you know the rights of a 'Dhimmi'?

Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State

Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.

• The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.

• Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.

• No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.

• Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.

Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion

• Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.

• Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.

• Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.

• An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.

• Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.

• The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.

• In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.

• Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.

• Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.

[vpb]

It’s clear that you’re referring to the great satan™ when you describe all the as yet un-named wars that have been going on. Please discuss for us all these wars started by the U.S. in the last 100 years.

I was not talking only about US. I was talking in general.

Real democracy? So what’s with this dhimmitude thing, then? Would your version of democracy include 1,400 years of offensive jihad that at one point brought Moslem holy warriors™ the shores of Europe?

thx, you just told me you haven't fully understood the concept of jihad, anyways where did u learn that muslims did offensive jihad and brought them to the shores of europe? it seems you have read those fancy history books of people who know nothing about Islam/muslims or they just wanted to make propaganda,
can you tell me if muslims fought jihad to expand? why in Indonesia which has the biggest muslim community has been no war (with muslims), also malysia?? why in Ballkan there are muslims, but in Bulgaria not? (since they came through bulgaria).......it's about how people accepted islam when muslim came to europe, they accepted islam vulnetary, as many many are doing now in UK/US and many other countries :) please try to read from proper sources, if you want to learn about physics, you don't go and ask a biology teacher but you go to a physics teacher, if I bought something and you wanted to ask me how much, you don't go and ask fisabililah but you ask me unless you want to please your self with anti-islamic stories :)

[vpb]

lolllll it's so funny bc you people get ripped off with taxes, and you accuse islamic state for asking non-muslims to pay taxes? lolllll i think one day you're gonna have to pay taxes for sleeping too... lol subhanallah.

[- Qatada -]

They ARE from religion, you're just using your previous biases to attack OUR religion. This justice HAS been established in our Islamic History, and authentically documented. And it WILL happen again when Allaah wills. I've quoted you the hadith that we have oppressive rulers today, and no - they don't apply the Shari'a law 100%, and any state which doesn't apply the Islamic law 100% IS NOT an Islamic State.


So you're continuous comparing of the states in the Muslim world today isn't according to Islaam, in fact its the furthest away from it in many ways.

[vpb]

Ruggedtouch, when you oppose something you need to have knowledge about it, you can't just say 'no no it doesn't work it doesn't work' and you don't know anything about it, you can't say for a type of food as it tastes bad whenever you haven't taste it. The purpose of the Islamic laws are to provide safety for the community from being denegenerated, don't you see where the community in western countries has gone? no it's no the son that consumes drugs, but it's the mother, the relationship between parents and children is like between 2 business men , all about money. you have gay/lesbian couples you can marry and adobt child, you have murders everywehre, suicide, robbery, drugs all bad things. but it seems that people have lost the sense of already knowing what is good and what is bad, it's like the heorin-addict who doesn't know things that he's doing are bad or good.

[- Qatada -]

No one is attacking your religion. Why so reactive?

I've identified to you the realities in the world and you take that as an attack on your religion.

It's not my bias that identifies the injustices that moslem nations inflict upon non-moslems.

I wish to open a new Church in the KSA, for example. Can I do so or not?

I don't need to answer for the rulers of the Muslim world today, and as i've stated many times before - the reason why we are in this state today is because the majority of us have actually turned away from our religion.


Recorded in Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4284.

Narrated Thawban:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish.

Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?
He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.

Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him):

He replied: Love of the world and dislike of death.

I don't need to answer your questions regarding the Muslim rulers, since we all will be taken into account for whatever we say or do in this life on the Day of Ressurection, by the One who created us when we were nothing, and i'd rather not say anything evil about them when i have my own mistakes and errors to care about. Allaah will deal with everyone accordingly, and no-one will be dealt with unjustly.



Regards.

[vpb]

I don't need to answer for the rulers of the Muslim world today, and as i've stated many times before - the reason why we are in this state today is because the majority of us have actually turned away from our religion.

So you're continuous comparing of the states in the Muslim world today isn't according to Islaam, in fact its the furthest away from it in many ways.

please read again the Fi sabililah posts :) he wrote a beatiful statment. read it again and again till you understand it :)

.In terms of where Western communities have gone you should know that I live in a Western community. My son has friends of various ethnicities who share none of the imbued hatreds for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions that are part and parcel of your world.

None of the people in my neighborhood are burning down Mosques. None of then are riding around with automatic weapons and murdering those of a different religious sect. None of the are specifically organized to adopt a “special” status to those of the minority faith. There is no concept of dhimmitude in the West where one ethnic or religious majority is held in higher regard that another.

Further, you might be surprised to learn that drugs, homosexuality: all of the vices you ascribe to the great satan™ are just as prevalent in the Moslem world. Do you understand the magnitude of the heroin addiction problem in Iran? How about the raids on gay clubs in the KSA.

and I also live in Western world, and I was raised probably in a more secular state then where u come from...sooo....i dont want those stories :) I see you are trying to compare a car with a dog. :) so I see n o point to discuss this topic further.

[- Qatada -]

Ignore him bro vpb :) he takes a pick and mix and chooses to ignore the aspects we give him with truth, and he chooses to follow propaganda instead.

We've quoted that non muslims who live in an Islamic State have rights similar to muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/733787-post143.html


There are people who fall into error, whether they are muslim or not. Muslims aren't perfect, but Islaam is. No matter how good the system is - there are always people who will make mistakes. Which is common sense.

But he can choose to ignore or accept, we can't force him to do any of that. Let him wander in his arrogance, and only Allaah will judge between us on what we differ. Then those who submitted to Him and obeyed His Messenger will be rewarded, whereas those who felt too arrogant to submit will be rewarded with a severe punishment - since they rejected the clear signs when they came to them.

[- Qatada -]

As it's been pointed out to you, there is no such example of the islamic state you claim would exist.

Just the opposite exists.

Intellectually honest people use facts to conceive their educated opinions, not defend their preconceived ones. But, of course, intellectual honesty isn't for everyone.

I think you don't understand, it's about whether one has existed or not in history. And the answer to that is YES it has - so it is a proof that a just state like that can exist. We also know that we don't give up our Islamic values for other ways, i.e. if there was to be an Islamic State established sooner or later - then it would mean we use the example of God's Messenger and his companions.

The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa* of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire." [Recorded in Abu Dawud]

*Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.

And we know that there is a Prophecy that there will be an Islamic State after this reign of oppressive leaders, inshaa Allaah.


I think there's no point to carry this discussion on anyway, i've made my point and you've made yours.


Regards.

[Muezzin]

In terms of where Western communities have gone you should know that I live in a Western community. My son has friends of various ethnicities who share none of the imbued hatreds for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions that are part and parcel of your world.

It could be argued that that right there displays your intolerance. I'm a Muslim in the West and have friends of various ethnicities, and I have no 'imbued hatred for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions'. 'Hatred' of such people is not 'part and parcel' of my 'world', nor is it 'part and parcel' of Islam. Please don't use sweeping generalisations as they make you look ignorant and are just offensive.

I'm not denying that the Arab and Muslim world has its problems. I'm just asking you not to disrespect me with silly umbrella definitions (since they're umbrella definitions about Muslims, they include me) that are based more individual bias than anything else. I don't make generalisations about Americans or Atheists, for instance. Please extend the same courtesy.

If you see others making such posts, please report them.

[Malaikah]

As it's been pointed out to you, there is no such example of the islamic state you claim would exist.

Just the opposite exists.

So? What does that prove? If corrupt people are running a country do you expect them to implement the Islamic law properly?

Most countries that implement Islamic law only do so selectively. So why do you think this reflects on Islam itself?

[- Qatada -]

Really, right off that bat I can think of a list of 10 of them, ever heard of Moses and the 10 commandments?

But aren't they forgiven for any deeds they do in life anyway? According to christian beliefs?

We know that in the sight of God, no soul bears the burden of another and that man is responsible for his/her actions. And every soul will be questioned by God about what they did in this world, those who obey the Messenger are successful and will have a great reward, whereas those who disbelieve in the truth will face a terrible reckoning. We seek refuge in God from that.

Wow I am glad you can admit that, basically you are saying that money and power corrupts even an Islamic state. Since a true Islamic state should be free of corruption, since it is run by the word of God, how can that be? This is why an Islamic state is no better and in many ways worse than a secular society.

An Islamic State should be run under Islamic laws, yet rulers are fallible. That doesn't mean that Islaam is.

I think you don't understand this concept much so i'll try explaining: Any ruler in an Islamic State is a human, power can corrupt someone, and if that does happen - he can be asked to step down. If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them? And if he doesn't do a good job of it - gets replaced by someone who is more likely to do that?

[- Qatada -]

Anyways Turkey is better off as a democracy, as Fi_Sabillah has already mentioned

erm.. when did i say that? :?


And no - Islaam is the truth, and truth always rises above falsehood.

[vpb]

first,

first you say you have to have knowledge about something to talk about it and then you ramble on about the relationship between parents in america, and so on and so on. Here is the problem, you have no idea what family life in the US is like so your hypocrisy is blatant.

lol, do you have proof that I didn't live in USA? on what basis you are making this conclusion? you proved that your hipocrisy i blatant , not mine :D please think before you write something. :)

second,

Murder, suicide, robbery and drugs all happen in Muslim countries as well, and at least in america when someone kills themself they dont take out the market with them.

ye ye ye, except the ones in muslim countries have a reason, butr what about some crazy guy who goes in schools and universities and shoots loads of people, without any reason, you see? you can pull this trick with any country, and your statement has nothing to do with islam, but has to do with personal thinking of those people who do that.

At least in America we dont produce, in the largest quantities in the world, the heroin (opium) that people all over the world get hooked on (including in your Muslim dreamland).

lol, maybe they produce, but at least they don't consume it as much as americans do :)

At least in America when someone commits a crime they are most of the time caught, and brought to justice, you talk about safety in a Muslim country, lol

ye ye ye ye, and you have cases when the person commits the crime just in order to get back to jail, i know this from personal experience, cuz people can major in things studying in jail, have everything :) at least they have a free-rent home, and dont have to pay taxes in jail :)

I never saw a woman in America get stoned to death in the street while people video taped it on cell phones.

if you are refering to the recent topic about a girl getting stoned, we don't really know much about it, and it doesn't necessary means that those people did that with justice, we simply don't know, but as for stoning in Islam, with justice, with proper reason, working with the sunnah, that it's a punishment that Allah swt brought for people who commit adultery, and it is a fair punishment , so people don't destroy other people's life, bc you can play with anything, but if you play with people's hearts, it's very bad thing, the worst. but you criticize this type of punishment , but maybe you can see what happened when the law said "you can't beat your kids", why? bc drunk, drug-addict people used to abuse their children, so they introduced the law to prohibit beating at all (except hitting in the b**ty), so now people think that they solved the case of child abusing, but in the other hand, children are not respectful to parents anymore, and they don't care....so you see still the Law of Allah swt is the perfect wether you like it or not.
a criminal is a criminal, he/she should be punished in such a way so he regrets it and will remember for the rest of his life, so he will not repeat it again :)


PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT CRITICIZING ALL AMERICAN PEOPLE, BC I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO ARE VERY GOOD PEOPLE AND I LOVE THEM, BUT I AM CRITICIZING THE LAW IN PARTICULAR.

[MTAFFI]

But aren't they forgiven for any deeds they do in life anyway? According to christian beliefs?

I thought that was how Islam was, if you convert to Islam before death and die as a Muslim you automatically go to heaven:? I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

An Islamic State should be run under Islamic laws, yet rulers are fallible. That doesn't mean that Islaam is.

I think you don't understand this concept much so i'll try explaining: Any ruler in an Islamic State is a human, power can corrupt someone, and if that does happen - he can be asked to step down. If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them? And if he doesn't do a good job of it - gets replaced by someone who is more likely to do that?

:) Fi_Sabilillah

It is funny that we are having this conversation again...lol.. It is kind of like a merry go round, although I enjoy reading your points and seeing the Muslim view on this so dont let my humor discourage you! In regards to power corrupting someone, what about it corrupting a government as a whole? Then who will ask the leader to step down? Often in politics it is not one person who causes all the trouble it is a group or groups that cause the trouble with one another and all parties are almost always susceptible to corruption via money, power, etc. In regard to

If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them?

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

[MTAFFI]

erm.. when did i say that? :?


And no - Islaam is the truth, and truth always rises above falsehood.

I was referring to where you said there is no true islamic state in the world today

[vpb]

I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

why wouldn't be worthy of me praying for myself? I understand somebody praying for you, but it doesn't mean that I don't have to pray myself bc my prayer is not accepted and his/her yes. The advantage of Islam is that you have direct link with God, nobody interferes within your relationship.

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

you can live in an Islamic state and practice your own religion, go to the church, nobody would stop you, living in an islamic state, is not forcing you to live under a religion, but is forcing you to live under rules which will do nothing except make the society better and a better society with good morals etc etc.Why should we all live under a man-made law? why don't you say anything about the law that your leaders make? let's call it with a name 'secular religion', why should we all live under secular religion? you only say for a religious law, not for a man-made law. why should he prohibit me from buying pen-remover (just because it contains alchool) if I am under 18? :D you see :) your arguments are an just an echo of themselves.

[- Qatada -]

Hey.

I thought that was how Islam was, if you convert to Islam before death and die as a Muslim you automatically go to heaven:? I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

If someone enters the fold of Islaam [i.e. accepting that None is worthy of worship except God Alone, and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is God's final Messenger] - then they truelly have to show that in their deeds.

Yes - their past deeds are forgiven, but they are responsible for their deeds they do from now onwards. Whether they are good or bad. If they sin, they can repent to God without having an intermediarry, since God is the All-Hearing, All Aware. And no soul bears the burden of another, so we don't bare the sin of Adam, nor does anyone carry our sins for us [i.e. Jesus son of Mary.] Rather every soul is responsible for itself.

:) Fi_Sabilillah

It is funny that we are having this conversation again...lol.. It is kind of like a merry go round, although I enjoy reading your points and seeing the Muslim view on this so dont let my humor discourage you! In regards to power corrupting someone, what about it corrupting a government as a whole? Then who will ask the leader to step down? Often in politics it is not one person who causes all the trouble it is a group or groups that cause the trouble with one another and all parties are almost always susceptible to corruption via money, power, etc. In regard to:

Yeah, it is. I just wanted to clarify some things i never got to explain last time.

The main aim is to pick the most suitable person for the position, i.e. if we were to look at the time of the Guided Khulafah [the successors and companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad peace be upon him.] We would see that they were the most righteous among them, and their advisors were also righteous. So we use them as an example when establishing a just Khilafah/Caliphate. Yes - people can fall into error, but this is why we are required to pick the most righteous of people, since it is a duty upon every muslim to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

If we were to always be in doubt in regard to power corrupting a person, then what is the alternative? Are we to pick no-one at all? Or to allow the most evil of people to rise into power? Would the power actually make them more evil, or would they spread good through it?


The main principle is to go for the lesser of the two evils, and Allaah knows best. :)

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

Islaam is a whole way of life, the christians don't believe that laws are for all of mankind. Infact i met a character called YEh (a christian)on this forum who said that one can have man-made laws over God's laws. And God's laws are for a specific group of people only. Now do you really believe that God would do that? Or would He send guidance for all of mankind?

I've had to repeat this many times over in this thread, but the non muslims in an Islamic state have similar rights to muslims, there blood and honor is protected, and they don't even have to fight if an enemy enters the land. They pay a tax, muslims also pay a tax. The christians and jews can actually have their own religious court cases to apply their own religious laws, whereas we don't have that today in Europe nor in the US. Yet this is allowed within an Islamic state.


Here's what i posted earlier on the rights of Non Muslims (Dhimmis) and Muslims in an Islamic State;

Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State

Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.

• The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.

• Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.

• No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.

• Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.

Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion

• Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.

• Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.

• Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.

• An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.

• Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.

• The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.

• In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.

• Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.

• Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.

http://www.islamicboard.com/733787-post143.html

[- Qatada -]

I was referring to where you said there is no true islamic state in the world today

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[vpb]

when Omer r.a was a Khalifa , I think he was in Medina, and he said "wallahi I fear the if a camel breaks her foot in Baghdad I will have to answer to Allah, bc I have not fixed the roads". this just tells us, what a responsibility is to be a Khalifa, and everyone should go away from becoming elected as a Khalifa, since it is a huge huge responsibility. But now days it seems every thing's different . :(

Also when Omer r.a was invited to a christian country (can't remember which one was), he went with a camel and with his servant, and one time the servant would get on camel, one time Omer r.a, and when they arrived the place, it was the turn of the servant to get on the camel, but he sadi to Omer r.a , get on the camel bc we have just arrived so you get on the camel, Omer r.a said no , it's your turn, and when they got there, lots of people were waiting for the Khalifa of the muslims to come, and when they saw them, they went to talk to the one in camel (the servant), and the servant pointed to Omer r.a and everybody was suprizes how could the servant be on camel, and the Khalifa on foot, this shows how modest these leaders were:) May Allah have mercy on them :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

About the stoning, the people werent even Muslim. So no points for u there lol.
Christian country, u mean Abyssinia? Sometin like that.

[MTAFFI]

first,



lol, do you have proof that I didn't live in USA? on what basis you are making this conclusion? you proved that your hipocrisy i blatant , not mine :D please think before you write something. :)

I dont need proof, you are the one who made the claims about the US, do you have proof that this is the majority of the population? I do live in the US, I come from a home that never had drugs or beatings and I respect my family more than anyone else in the world. Do you live in the US? If so what interaction have you had with other peoples families? Where do you get your facts?

ye ye ye, except the ones in muslim countries have a reason, butr what about some crazy guy who goes in schools and universities and shoots loads of people, without any reason, you see? you can pull this trick with any country, and your statement has nothing to do with islam, but has to do with personal thinking of those people who do that.

Yeah these Muslims countries have reason to kill each other huh? LOL what was the reason for blowing up mosques, what was the reason for double suicide bombs at a university killing HUNDREDS! Your statement in regards to "pulling this trick with any country" is my whole point, every country has its very share of trouble makers and losers, a whole country can not or at least should not be based on these people, isnt that what Muslims keep trying to tell everyone?

lol, maybe they produce, but at least they don't consume it as much as americans do :)

What is the difference between producing and consuming, are they both not equally dispicable and wrong?

ye ye ye ye, and you have cases when the person commits the crime just in order to get back to jail, i know this from personal experience, cuz people can major in things studying in jail, have everything :) at least they have a free-rent home, and dont have to pay taxes in jail :)

You say you know from personal experience, so I assume you have been to jail, huh? LOL I guess it is better to keep them off the streets though

if you are refering to the recent topic about a girl getting stoned, we don't really know much about it, and it doesn't necessary means that those people did that with justice, we simply don't know, but as for stoning in Islam, with justice, with proper reason, working with the sunnah, that it's a punishment that Allah swt brought for people who commit adultery, and it is a fair punishment , so people don't destroy other people's life, bc you can play with anything, but if you play with people's hearts, it's very bad thing, the worst. but you criticize this type of punishment , but maybe you can see what happened when the law said "you can't beat your kids", why? bc drunk, drug-addict people used to abuse their children, so they introduced the law to prohibit beating at all (except hitting in the b**ty), so now people think that they solved the case of child abusing, but in the other hand, children are not respectful to parents anymore, and they don't care....so you see still the Law of Allah swt is the perfect wether you like it or not.
a criminal is a criminal, he/she should be punished in such a way so he regrets it and will remember for the rest of his life, so he will not repeat it again :)

Stoning someone to death in todays world is wrong, we are supposed to be a little more humane than that by now. You saying that this is condoned in Islam implicates that Islam is indeed a violent religion. There is no need to gather around and stone and kick a woman to death, and I dont care what she did, it is a disgusting sick act of violence. Not to mention look at those peoples faces doing it, they laugh and smile. I think this effects the heart in a much more profound way than being cheated on by a spouse, I believe it turns the heart black. And as for beating children in America, you can give your kid a good whipping, you just cant draw blood or leave bruises. It is a matter of knowing your strength and the strength of a child, although people who would allow the stoning of a woman would probably not get this. Some children are not respectful because they are not taught respect, not because they werent beat enough, you can teach something to someone without physically beating it into them, this again shows you 10th century mindset.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT CRITICIZING ALL AMERICAN PEOPLE, BC I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO ARE VERY GOOD PEOPLE AND I LOVE THEM, BUT I AM CRITICIZING THE LAW IN PARTICULAR.

Sure seems like it, you werent talking of the law in your original post you were speaking about all the americans who have problems. I could come up with a laundry list of problems in middle eastern countries. Where would you rather live, in the US or the middle east? If the middle east is so great then why do all these muslims flock to our country every day

[MTAFFI]

If we were to always be in doubt in regard to power corrupting a person, then what is the alternative? Are we to pick no-one at all? Or to allow the most evil of people to rise into power? Would the power actually make them more evil, or would they spread good through it?

I think my issue with it is this, take democracy in the US for example, it started out somewhat pure and good. Through time more and more people have tampered with it and now it is not as good. If you were to incorporate a religion into that, and then the religion would become corrupt over time as well, and at the fault of man, not just the rulers, but all men. I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God. I guess maybe it is the less of the two evils, I think it is just a matter of opinion.

Islaam is a whole way of life, the christians don't believe that laws are for all of mankind. Infact i met a character called YEh (a christian)on this forum who said that one can have man-made laws over God's laws. And God's laws are for a specific group of people only. Now do you really believe that God would do that? Or would He send guidance for all of mankind?

I think he may be meaning that Gods laws are for the individual and the man made laws are for the society as a whole. Compulsion does not fit in with religion, you cant make someone follow Gods law, that is why we have free will, however you can make someone follow the laws of society. Most of the laws in society coincide with Gods laws, it is the laws that dont effect society as a whole that are not man laws, that is because they deal with the individuals morals and ethics. If a person believes in God and wishes to follow his word, then he would not break these laws, if he does not believe in God or follow his word then he will break Gods laws, and God will judge him/ her for that in the end.

I've had to repeat this many times over in this thread, but the non muslims in an Islamic state have similar rights to muslims, there blood and honor is protected, and they don't even have to fight if an enemy enters the land. They pay a tax, muslims also pay a tax. The christians and jews can actually have their own religious court cases to apply their own religious laws, whereas we don't have that today in Europe nor in the US. Yet this is allowed within an Islamic state.

Similar does not cut it, it is not equal, and therefore will never be accepted

[- Qatada -]

I think my issue with it is this, take democracy in the US for example, it started out somewhat pure and good. Through time more and more people have tampered with it and now it is not as good. If you were to incorporate a religion into that, and then the religion would become corrupt over time as well, and at the fault of man, not just the rulers, but all men. I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God. I guess maybe it is the less of the two evils, I think it is just a matter of opinion.

Islaam isn't tampered with, there have been many attempts to tamper it for over 14 centuries now, yet the authentic teachings still remain preserved and intact till today. And it will remain this way till the Day of Ressurection because Allaah Almighty says:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). [Qur'an 15:9]

If you believe that God is more just than man, then you can agree that God's laws are better than man made laws. However, if you believe that man's laws are greater then God's - then you need to question your faith in God.

Stoning someone to death in todays world is wrong, we are supposed to be a little more humane than that by now. You saying that this is condoned in Islam implicates that Islam is indeed a violent religion. There is no need to gather around and stone and kick a woman to death, and I dont care what she did, it is a disgusting sick act of violence. Not to mention look at those peoples faces doing it, they laugh and smile. I think this effects the heart in a much more profound way than being cheated on by a spouse, I believe it turns the heart black. And as for beating children in America, you can give your kid a good whipping, you just cant draw blood or leave bruises. It is a matter of knowing your strength and the strength of a child, although people who would allow the stoning of a woman would probably not get this. Some children are not respectful because they are not taught respect, not because they werent beat enough, you can teach something to someone without physically beating it into them, this again shows you 10th century mindset.

According to christianity, the punishment for apostasy is death, but not just that - its actually stoning to death:

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

If you've noticed, the most justice in history has to be at the time of the Messenger of God, peace be upon him. And at the time of the guided Khulafah, his companions and successors. You know why? Because the evil doers never felt they could get away from their crimes. A guy couldn't rape a woman with the hope of being released from jail within 2yrs, rather he would fear facing death - so he wouldn't approach that evil. Nor would anyone murder, compared to the amount of murders commited today - why? Because he feared death also.

The laws of God are for the benefit of mankind, they're not for the benefit of the 'who can get the most toys' society. Again, you have to question whether God could truelly send a way of life and guidance for all of mankind, since God has power over all things.

If you disagree - you have to question your faith in God. If you feel that christianity isn't doing a good job of it, then theres probably an alternative which hasn't been corrupted, since the authentic teachings of Islaam have been preserved for more than a millenium - all by the Grace of the Most Compassionate, All Knowing, the Wise.



Regards.

[Skywalker]

I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God.

Man's law can be changed by man, whereas God's law cannot be changed no matter what.

[vpb]

I would actually like to pursue this but my prior posts challenging your comments have been removed.

you're not the only one. some of my posts are deleted also. :)
and thats one thing i wan't to clarify :

You say you know from personal experience, so I assume you have been to jail, huh? LOL I guess it is better to keep them off the streets though

no, i have not been, but it was the incorrect expression of my thoughts, what I meant was actually some other person, not me. :)

[Muezzin]

Guys, some valid subjects have come up, but they belong in another thread, because they are sidetracking this one. It's not some sort of conspiracy, just start a new thread rather than derailing an existing one.

[shev]

I'm very sorry for those people who walked. but it is not millions as its anounced. I have never used my vote. but this time I think I should use my vote in these elections.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh a sis from Turkey. Is it the same there as we are told sister?

[Hashim_507]

May Allah save the muslim nations from secular life and its anti-Islam compaign.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Ameen!

[guyabano]

May Allah save the muslim nations from secular life and its anti-Islam compaign.

Honestly, 'Secular' does not automatically mean 'Anti-Islamic'. :rollseyes

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Honestly, 'Secular' does not automatically mean 'Anti-Islamic'. :rollseyes

but in turkey's case it most certainly does.

[MTAFFI]

I was reading about this and I noticed that the Turks arent even trying to get an Islamic state, no matter who is elected Turkey will still be a secular state, so what is the debate about here, either way Turkey will remain secular :?

[yigiter187]

[QUOTE=IbnAbdulHakim;734702]but in turkey's case it most certainly does.[/QUOthe case is not like this....muslims are regarded as a danger for secularism in turkey..if a little girl closing his head with scarf sıngs an islamic song in front of poster of ataturk,she is considered as anti-secularısm......
my country is very strange, isnt it?:)

[shev]

I was reading about this and I noticed that the Turks arent even trying to get an Islamic state, no matter who is elected Turkey will still be a secular state, so what is the debate about here, either way Turkey will remain secular :?

yes that's true there is no doubt about it. Turkey is secular and it'll be secular. but problem is people don't know what secularism means. And some of the people belive that secularism is when u enter a state buildin you have to leave not only your islamic thoughts but also your heartly belief in islam. Is it possible for a person to leave his belives out of an official place. yes you may have to obey the rules and consider secularism. but no one has right to accuse you because of your beliefs if you obey the rules.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
The main problem is that the understanding of secularism is completely wrong. What secularism is all about is that the government does not fund a specific religion, to negate any bias towards any particular religion.

Certain so called secular countries no longer remember the actual meaning of secularism and it is now commonly defined as a ban or suppression of religion.

Such is the paradoxical/hypocritical nature of mankind that I am sure we are all aware of by now.

[MTAFFI]

yes that's true there is no doubt about it. Turkey is secular and it'll be secular. but problem is people don't know what secularism means. And some of the people belive that secularism is when u enter a state buildin you have to leave not only your islamic thoughts but also your heartly belief in islam. Is it possible for a person to leave his belives out of an official place. yes you may have to obey the rules and consider secularism. but no one has right to accuse you because of your beliefs if you obey the rules.

In secularism there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but religious rights are supposed to be observed as well as respected by the government as well. The whole point is to have no restriction on religion or its practice. If what you say is true Turkey isnt even a secular society, I am not sure what it would be classified as:?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

the case is not like this....muslims are regarded as a danger for secularism in turkey..if a little girl closing his head with scarf sıngs an islamic song in front of poster of ataturk,she is considered as anti-secularısm......
my country is very strange, isnt it?:)

wow... that makes me angry... someone adopt that girl :(

[Hashim_507]

Secular means having to leave all morals and duties of any religion. When you talk to a secular person that person will claim the religion but does not practice it. This will leade the muslims astray from the duties they suppose to do.

[yahia12]

of course turkey is scared to a islamic state look at iran and iraq.

[Hashim_507]

Iran is good shape, but Iraq is a disaster. May Allah unite all muslim nations.

[HBot 5000]

:sl:

I personally believe everybody has the right to choose. If they want to be christian, muslim, jew, agnostic etc. If they do not want their government to be Islamic fair play let them be whatever they want to be. :)

If they don't want Islam to lighten their life then that's their loss. :alright:

:w:

[MTAFFI]

:sl:

I personally believe everybody has the right to choose. If they want to be christian, muslim, jew, agnostic etc. If they do not want their government to be Islamic fair play let them be whatever they want to be. :)

If they don't want Islam to lighten their life then that's their loss. :alright:

:w:

well said:)

[Muezzin]

By the way, just deleted a bunch of off-topic posts. Iran and Iraq are subjects which may be discussed in any number of existing threads all about them.

Please stick to the topic everyone.

[Skywalker]

In secularism there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but religious rights are supposed to be observed as well as respected by the government as well. The whole point is to have no restriction on religion or its practice. If what you say is true Turkey isnt even a secular society, I am not sure what it would be classified as

How about banning religious headscarves in France, isn't that also against the rules of secularism? That would also make France an "unclassified" country as well...

[MTAFFI]

How about banning religious headscarves in France, isn't that also against the rules of secularism? That would also make France an "unclassified" country as well...

I do not agree with that, unless you are referring to the niqaab. The niqaab is a security threat to some. What we were talking about above is to the extreme, at times freedom can be taken away to protect everyone, but not being allowed to pray in public is absolutely ridiculous

[guyabano]

Eh, secularism says, that the country is ruled by man-made laws, no? And most of the popularity in France decided 'Ban the veil'. So the people decided !
And I guess, with a leader as Sarkozy, it will even become worser for foreigners, as he is conservative politician.

[MTAFFI]

Eh, secularism says, that the country is ruled by man-made laws, no? And most of the popularity in France decided 'Ban the veil'. So the people decided !
And I guess, with a leader as Sarkozy, it will even become worser for foreigners, as he is conservative politician.

That is true and that is what is good about democracy, if you dont like something you can get rid of it, while at the same time if you do like something you can get it. France banning the veil is no concern to me, if they feel it is a security concern or they simply dont like Muslims that is their business, no one is forced to live there.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No one is forced to live there, but not everyone can afford to go elsewhere. It's not as easy as saying it.

[MTAFFI]

No one is forced to live there, but not everyone can afford to go elsewhere. It's not as easy as saying it.

How can you not afford to move elsewhere?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Maybe people have a hard time settling anywhere else? Depends on he environemnt u grew up in. Get it? Like me livin in America. Might not be used to livin somewhere like, lets say Pakistan?

[Suomipoika]

Its good to remember that you can wear veil as much as you want in France on your own time and in public aswell. However if you go to school you have to follow dress codes that the state sets for schools. (like pretty much all the schools in the world have dress codes that suits them, I couldnt, for example, wear hat inside finnish schools, that didnt mean that "the hat" was banned in Finland).

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Theres no point in wearin it at all in public if u cant in school. Schools are still OUTSIDE of the home. Its not an on and off thing like a hat. Its nutin like a "hat."

[England]

Theres no point in wearin it at all in public if u cant in school. Schools are still OUTSIDE of the home. Its not an on and off thing like a hat. Its nutin like a "hat."

If the veils are becoming an issue in the west, banned in many places in Europe, not far from being banned in the UK, why do muslims continue to emigrate to the West when clearly it is not suitable for them? Our cultures are different, they clash and there will be decisions that you and us westerners won't like.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So thennnnnnnn the West needs to accept that we arent oppressed or backwards! Plain and simple! :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So thennnnnnnn the West needs to accept that we arent oppressed or backwards! Plain and simple! :)

when a muslim lady expresses this and people still cant understand due to a few people who felt oppressed then they can never understand.

its like going upto a man who cant breathe and pitying him, and then going up to the rest of humanity and saying "HOOK YOURSELVES ON LIFE MACHINES YOU POOR SOULS YOU CANT BREATHE" whilst the rest are explaining "no we can breathe just fine you nutcase".

lol ;D

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^;D loolll

[north_malaysian]

I couldnt, for example, wear hat inside finnish schools, that didnt mean that "the hat" was banned in Finland).

And we couldn't wear "Muslim turban" (like the ones Osama Laden wears), "kopiah" (white skullcaps) and keeping beard in Malaysian public schools.

[abdil han]

If the veils are becoming an issue in the west, banned in many places in Europe, not far from being banned in the UK, why do muslims continue to emigrate to the West when clearly it is not suitable for them? Our cultures are different, they clash and there will be decisions that you and us westerners won't like.

so, as a muslm turk,
we better stop to try to be a member of EU,

actually i dont want it...as u said,we are different:D

[abdil han]

and also,i tried to read all the posts here,
1 thng made me very sad; most of muslim sis n bros think that we turks lost our faith n we r nt true muslims anymore...:(

brothers ,there is still a big community here who wants n tries to live how islam asks,,

yes i know that our ''laic,secular(not even true secularism) system is not that good but this cant stop us believe in Allah n that system cant come in to our homes,,

i know n accept that many turks are living like nonmuslims;they r drinking alcohol,having sins without caring if its helal or haram,but also there are millions of people who regards islam as a way of living...

salam all!

[snakelegs]

That is true and that is what is good about democracy, if you dont like something you can get rid of it, while at the same time if you do like something you can get it. France banning the veil is no concern to me, if they feel it is a security concern or they simply dont like Muslims that is their business, no one is forced to live there.

i agree - so if the majority of people want a more islamic-friendly government, why shouldn't they get it?
(no one is seriously talking about establishing shariah - merely about having a government less hostile to religion.

[guyabano]

If the veils are becoming an issue in the west, banned in many places in Europe, not far from being banned in the UK, why do muslims continue to emigrate to the West when clearly it is not suitable for them? Our cultures are different, they clash and there will be decisions that you and us westerners won't like.

Errmm, good question. When you know already in advance, that the veil is banned, so why go there? Somehow, it remembers me the postings about the request, western tourist should please follow the culture and tradions of the country they visit. So why not in this way?? See here !

[Skywalker]

That is true and that is what is good about democracy, if you dont like something you can get rid of it, while at the same time if you do like something you can get it. France banning the veil is no concern to me, if they feel it is a security concern or they simply dont like Muslims that is their business, no one is forced to live there.

I'm not quite sure it was the people's decision, but only that of Jacques Chirac. Secondly, I'm not talking about the face veil, only the heardscarf, which is the exact same thing that nuns wear.

How is that a threat to security or offensive to anyone? In Egypt, where Muslims are the vast majority, we have a lot of Christians with us in schools and stuff and they proudly display their golden necklaces with crosses and nobody has a problem with it.

In a secular government, where anyone is supposedly allowed to follow their religion how they like, what happens if the majority of the people, like you said, vote and decide against a thing such as a headscarf? How are the rights of the minority protected in that case? Obvioulsly from what we've seen in France, they're not. Which says a lot about the kind of democracy they have...

Errmm, good question. When you know already in advance, that the veil is banned, so why go there? Somehow, it remembers me the postings about the request, western tourist should please follow the culture and tradions of the country they visit. So why not in this way??

There's a difference between visiting a country that doesn't allow you to follow your religion and actually being born in one and having a citizenship. It's not easy for people to move and leave everything they've ever known, not to mention the cost of the move.

[AHMED_GUREY]

If the veils are becoming an issue in the west, banned in many places in Europe, not far from being banned in the UK, why do muslims continue to emigrate to the West when clearly it is not suitable for them? Our cultures are different, they clash and there will be decisions that you and us westerners won't like.

If muslims are becoming an issue in western countries why do western military establisments continue to emigrate chunks of their armies to Muslim nations and enforce their way of life when the people who there trying to occupy have a different culture,religion and a whole different way of life and probably won't like these decisions that are being forced upon them which in turn is causing them to flee

yes some go to Western countries and yes they come with their different religion and different culture!

so please do tell me why?:)

[Muezzin]

See, I thought this thread was about Turkey...

[Skywalker]

See, I thought this thread was about Turkey...

Turkey -- yum yum! Tastes a lot like chicken...

Looks like a big chicken too...

;D

[MTAFFI]

i agree - so if the majority of people want a more islamic-friendly government, why shouldn't they get it?
(no one is seriously talking about establishing shariah - merely about having a government less hostile to religion.

There is no reason that they shouldnt get it, it is an injustice to the people there if they dont. The US and the EU has already said that it disagrees with the militaries intent to overthrow such a thing, along with many others in the world

[vpb]

i can't believe this thread is still going on.

[MTAFFI]

I'm not quite sure it was the people's decision, but only that of Jacques Chirac. Secondly, I'm not talking about the face veil, only the heardscarf, which is the exact same thing that nuns wear.

How is that a threat to security or offensive to anyone? In Egypt, where Muslims are the vast majority, we have a lot of Christians with us in schools and stuff and they proudly display their golden necklaces with crosses and nobody has a problem with it.

In a secular government, where anyone is supposedly allowed to follow their religion how they like, what happens if the majority of the people, like you said, vote and decide against a thing such as a headscarf? How are the rights of the minority protected in that case? Obvioulsly from what we've seen in France, they're not. Which says a lot about the kind of democracy they have...

I dont personally think that the headscarf is a security threat to anyone, and I thought that only the niqaab was banned in France. As far as other countries go with their tolerance, the same could be said of the US, no one here says anything to Muslims about their dress, the US is actually extremely tolerant to all religions and people, but that has nothing to do with France or Turkey. As far as the situation in Turkey and France where certain aspects of people religion are being infringed upon, all I can really say is that we live in a strange day. People use their religion to cause terror and destruction, that religion that is being used happens to be Islam. It is sad to say but in order to insure the safety of people the root of the problem has to be addressed, only when these attacks and hate messages go away will the world stop looking at Muslims as trouble making terrorist. Can you blame the rest of the world? There is no nation to attack, there is no one person, there are people lurking in the shadow of Islam waiting to attack and kill mass numbers of people. Security measures have to be taken, and if that means infringing on the rights of Muslims, then Muslims had best start thinking of a way to reverse the mindset of the rest of the world, and the only way that can be done is to get people to quit using your religion to justify violence. Turkey may be taking it to far and for different reasons but if the image of Islam were to change I bet it would make a huge difference for that countries people.

[Skywalker]

I dont personally think that the headscarf is a security threat to anyone, and I thought that only the niqaab was banned in France. As far as other countries go with their tolerance, the same could be said of the US, no one here says anything to Muslims about their dress, the US is actually extremely tolerant to all religions and people, but that has nothing to do with France or Turkey. As far as the situation in Turkey and France where certain aspects of people religion are being infringed upon, all I can really say is that we live in a strange day. People use their religion to cause terror and destruction, that religion that is being used happens to be Islam. It is sad to say but in order to insure the safety of people the root of the problem has to be addressed, only when these attacks and hate messages go away will the world stop looking at Muslims as trouble making terrorist. Can you blame the rest of the world? There is no nation to attack, there is no one person, there are people lurking in the shadow of Islam waiting to attack and kill mass numbers of people. Security measures have to be taken, and if that means infringing on the rights of Muslims, then Muslims had best start thinking of a way to reverse the mindset of the rest of the world, and the only way that can be done is to get people to quit using your religion to justify violence. Turkey may be taking it to far and for different reasons but if the image of Islam were to change I bet it would make a huge difference for that countries people.

I fail to see the relationship between terrorism and women wearing a headscarf. If a group of Muslims are carrying out those acts, what do French schoolgirls have to do with it? Moreover what does it have to do with the way they dress?? Is it a form of unjust retaliation, "Oh your Muslim brothers are causing mischief all around the world, so I'm gonna take it out on you." That's not doing anything positive, in fact it's even fuelling the terrorists to hate the west and their secular ways even more. So the French are going against their own belief system of allowing people to practice their faith freely in order to give their enemies more motivation to carry out further attacks. Is that insane or what??

As far as I know, it's not only France and Turkey that are banning the headscarf, although they are the two (supposedly) most civilized countries to do so. Others I know of are Tunisia, which have also banned it from certain places, and Egypt, which doesn't allow it to we worn on TV. Muslim countries trying to suck up to their secular big brothers...pathetic.

[sevgi]

Muslim countries trying to suck up to their secular big brothers...pathetic.

assalamualeykum brothers and sisiters...

to tell u the truth i am crying right now.

i am not offended by any one individuals writings. the above is just an example. it is the whole attitude some people in here have collaborated against Turkey.

As an extremely proud, non- rascist Turkish Muslim (in no specific order what so ever), i would like to invite all of you to please, wipe out the stupid thoughts you have on the democratic country iteself and the muslim turks living in it.

Do not ever ever ever ever make any judgments on the place or the situation within it without going there, and staying there for a considerable period...

off course, everyone has a right to his/her opinion. if wiping it out is a little extreme, then maybe one should consider altering it.

i admit the fact that the turks there have gone a little stupid with their absolutely inaccurate implementation of secularism, but believe me, those protestors are people being induced by the wrong powers who have unfortunately taken a little too much control of the Turkish government. and might i add that a high number of those protestors were not even turkish...greeks, armenians, all sorts of turkish citizens who are being pushed to believe that Abdullah gul is an extremist muslim undercover which can be seen by the fcat that he isnt forcing his wife to take the hijab off.

no.Turkey has not yet joined the EU. and the eu is not only about the hijab in turkey. why do we fail to see what a great historic expression it will be for a country with a 99% muslim population, where the adhan is heard five times everyday, where, everywhere except istanbul and some other hot rod cities, are full of unbelievably islamic and God worshiping muslims joins a global institution like the EU. why do we fail to see the fact that Turkey has a recorded population of 80million people and we get caught up by a bunch off idiots, barely turkish, barely muslim, on tv news, chanting absolute -------s...

Turkey is having rough times...it may no longer be the Ottoman Empire...but it is practically one of the only muslim countries which is civil enough, refined enough, or practical enough to maybe, just maybe push forward in this western mainstream consumerist world we live in.

islam is not only wearing a hijab and praying and chanting Gods glorious names. Turkey is an islamic country.muslims are predominant there and they always will be.the adhan will always be heard there (inshallah)...and we need your duas....

that is all...

May Allah guide all your thoughts...
wassalam.

[vpb]

assalamualeykum brothers and sisiters...

to tell u the truth i am crying right now.

i am not offended by any one individuals writings. the above is just an example. it is the whole attitude some people in here have collaborated against Turkey.

As an extremely proud, non- rascist Turkish Muslim (in no specific order what so ever), i would like to invite all of you to please, wipe out the stupid thoughts you have on the democratic country iteself and the muslim turks living in it.

Do not ever ever ever ever make any judgments on the place or the situation within it without going there, and staying there for a considerable period...

off course, everyone has a right to his/her opinion. if wiping it out is a little extreme, then maybe one should consider altering it.

i admit the fact that the turks there have gone a little stupid with their absolutely inaccurate implementation of secularism, but believe me, those protestors are people being induced by the wrong powers who have unfortunately taken a little too much control of the Turkish government. and might i add that a high number of those protestors were not even turkish...greeks, armenians, all sorts of turkish citizens who are being pushed to believe that Abdullah gul is an extremist muslim undercover which can be seen by the fcat that he isnt forcing his wife to take the hijab off.

no.Turkey has not yet joined the EU. and the eu is not only about the hijab in turkey. why do we fail to see what a great historic expression it will be for a country with a 99% muslim population, where the adhan is heard five times everyday, where, everywhere except istanbul and some other hot rod cities, are full of unbelievably islamic and God worshiping muslims joins a global institution like the EU. why do we fail to see the fact that Turkey has a recorded population of 80million people and we get caught up by a bunch off idiots, barely turkish, barely muslim, on tv news, chanting absolute -------s...

Turkey is having rough times...it may no longer be the Ottoman Empire...but it is practically one of the only muslim countries which is civil enough, refined enough, or practical enough to maybe, just maybe push forward in this western mainstream consumerist world we live in.

islam is not only wearing a hijab and praying and chanting Gods glorious names. Turkey is an islamic country.muslims are predominant there and they always will be.the adhan will always be heard there (inshallah)...and we need your duas....

that is all...

May Allah guide all your thoughts...
wassalam.

jazakallah khair sis, very very good post.

ameen to the dua.

[Malaikah]

Turkey is having rough times...it may no longer be the Ottoman Empire...but it is practically one of the only muslim countries which is civil enough, refined enough, or practical enough to maybe, just maybe push forward in this western mainstream consumerist world we live in.

:sl:

I might be missing something here, so please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they trying to do this by suppressing the influence of Islam in Turkey and becoming increasingly secular?:?

If so, how can that possibly be a good thing?

[vpb]

it's so sad that Gul resigned :(

[sevgi]

:sl:

I might be missing something here, so please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they trying to do this by suppressing the influence of Islam in Turkey and becoming increasingly secular?:?

If so, how can that possibly be a good thing?

salams sis,

it has already become as stupidly secular as it can get...trust me. they outdone themselves. they cannot increase it, there is so much happening in turkey. My friends had to throw their laptops into the bin coz it was full of religious stuff and the "govt. police" kept breaking in to suspicious homes and taking away people who seemed as though were serving 'an islamic state agenda"...

Not one single muslim on earth can argue that this is a good thing. But in every ounce of work which Allah permitts, there is khayr. And to find and see Allahs wisdom and khayr workings behind what we percieve as bad is our job.

Today, istanbul and other so called 'westish' cities in turkey are losing their islamic identity...they want to lose it. But what we musnt forget is that besides those little cities which actually account for so little, turkey is islamic.once the people get what they want (join the EU blah blah blah), then the officials can work in the other direction and regain what so many true turks and muslims lost.

i dont know if you can see it the way i do...but i guess you just need a lot more political and social background on democratic turkey and islamic turkey as seperate entities.

salams...

[Malaikah]

it has already become as stupidly secular as it can get...trust me. they outdone themselves. they cannot increase it, there is so much happening in turkey. My friends had to throw their laptops into the bin coz it was full of religious stuff and the "govt. police" kept breaking in to suspicious homes and taking away people who seemed as though were serving 'an islamic state agenda"...

:sl:

Wow, I didn't know it was so bad. imsad

once the people get what they want (join the EU blah blah blah), then the officials can work in the other direction and regain what so many true turks and muslims lost.

Isn't that being a bit hopeful? :? I personally can't imagine that happening.

[sevgi]

it's so sad that Gul resigned :(

i agree...all my dreams were shattered. if anyone was going to drive turkey through the filth of the EU agenda, then park it in the safest islamic space available, it was him.

i want to go to my country and study there. but i cant.

May Allah lead the Turkish govt. into khayr no matter what the results of this election may be.

[sevgi]

i really dont think its that hopeful sis, coz theyre not fighting against any external powers anymore. there arent any external influences to be served. so everyone is content. then, they only have their own people to influence, and its not so hard when your the one who had achieved the impossible. the people of turkey will have to salute the govt head who achieves something like joining the EU. they cannot label them as being islamist or anything. coz they have already proven that they are pro-west and would have achieved standards of living, international affairs and connections like never before.

:sl:

Wow, I didn't know it was so bad. imsad



Isn't that being a bit hopeful? :? I personally can't imagine that happening.

[abdil han]

assalamualeykum brothers and sisiters...

to tell u the truth i am crying right now.

i am not offended by any one individuals writings. the above is just an example. it is the whole attitude some people in here have collaborated against Turkey.

As an extremely proud, non- rascist Turkish Muslim (in no specific order what so ever), i would like to invite all of you to please, wipe out the stupid thoughts you have on the democratic country iteself and the muslim turks living in it.

Do not ever ever ever ever make any judgments on the place or the situation within it without going there, and staying there for a considerable period...

off course, everyone has a right to his/her opinion. if wiping it out is a little extreme, then maybe one should consider altering it.

i admit the fact that the turks there have gone a little stupid with their absolutely inaccurate implementation of secularism, but believe me, those protestors are people being induced by the wrong powers who have unfortunately taken a little too much control of the Turkish government. and might i add that a high number of those protestors were not even turkish...greeks, armenians, all sorts of turkish citizens who are being pushed to believe that Abdullah gul is an extremist muslim undercover which can be seen by the fcat that he isnt forcing his wife to take the hijab off.

no.Turkey has not yet joined the EU. and the eu is not only about the hijab in turkey. why do we fail to see what a great historic expression it will be for a country with a 99% muslim population, where the adhan is heard five times everyday, where, everywhere except istanbul and some other hot rod cities, are full of unbelievably islamic and God worshiping muslims joins a global institution like the EU. why do we fail to see the fact that Turkey has a recorded population of 80million people and we get caught up by a bunch off idiots, barely turkish, barely muslim, on tv news, chanting absolute -------s...

Turkey is having rough times...it may no longer be the Ottoman Empire...but it is practically one of the only muslim countries which is civil enough, refined enough, or practical enough to maybe, just maybe push forward in this western mainstream consumerist world we live in.

islam is not only wearing a hijab and praying and chanting Gods glorious names. Turkey is an islamic country.muslims are predominant there and they always will be.the adhan will always be heard there (inshallah)...and we need your duas....

that is all...

May Allah guide all your thoughts...
wassalam.

va aleykum selam sister,

im thankful to you as a muslim turk,
you said what i tried to say,,,

but u said''except istanbul'',,this made me sad,even in istanbul,among 15 million people,there are millions of muslims,who cares haram-helal n trying to live in an islamic way...

and also,we need to be strong n hopeful,,
think that 200 years ago,if someone would have said that one day ottomans will be over,no one would believe him...but it happened...

thats the only thng which i wanted to say,

and the situation of turkiye is not that bad,(except the hijab problem in schools) we can believe n woreship however we want,alhamdulillah...this is a big 'nimat' for us....50-60 years ago turkiye was worse than ever...it was totaly forbidden to do anythng which concerned islam...even ezan was in turkish!


the world needs a big, developed,strong,civilized,rich islamic country...it will be like a sun which will pull the other muslims as planets.then the unition can be possible again..
im hopeful,,may Allah help us all inshaAllah...amin.

salam n du'a...

[cihad]

^I agree with all of what you said.

Turkey is very close to my heart, and despite all that is said about it I will say that turkish ppl are the most wonderful and warmest ppl i have met.

[shev]

^I agree with all of what you said.

Turkey is very close to my heart, and despite all that is said about it I will say that turkish ppl are the most wonderful and warmest ppl i have met.

slm,
As a muslim from Turkey thank you for your thoughts. I'm realy very anxious about the elections. As you know it was said that 'You'll be directed as how you are'

[sevgi]

va aleykum selam sister,

im thankful to you as a muslim turk,
you said what i tried to say,,,

but u said''except istanbul'',,this made me sad,even in istanbul,among 15 million people,there are millions of muslims,who cares haram-helal n trying to live in an islamic way...

and also,we need to be strong n hopeful,,
think that 200 years ago,if someone would have said that one day ottomans will be over,no one would believe him...but it happened...

thats the only thng which i wanted to say,

and the situation of turkiye is not that bad,(except the hijab problem in schools) we can believe n woreship however we want,alhamdulillah...this is a big 'nimat' for us....50-60 years ago turkiye was worse than ever...it was totaly forbidden to do anythng which concerned islam...even ezan was in turkish!


the world needs a big, developed,strong,civilized,rich islamic country...it will be like a sun which will pull the other muslims as planets.then the unition can be possible again..
im hopeful,,may Allah help us all inshaAllah...amin.

salam n du'a...

salamz brother...

what i meant by 'istanbul' was not the individuals living there...ifd there was one place for me to choose to live it would be istanbul, then probably anywhere in belgium...

what i meant by istanbul, and im sorry for the misunderstanding, is the 'socio-economic istanbul' the 'context' or perhaps even the 'concept' of istanbul.

[sevgi]

slm,
As a muslim from Turkey thank you for your thoughts. I'm realy very anxious about the elections. As you know it was said that 'You'll be directed as how you are'

how do you feel, as a turk living in turkiye, about the elections?

[Skywalker]

once the people get what they want (join the EU blah blah blah), then the officials can work in the other direction and regain what so many true turks and muslims lost

It's really funny how life works sometimes. Give people enough freedom and they will go in one of two directions. Either they will go as far as they can in exercising their freedom (the majority) or they will choose to use this freedom only to practice their religion freely while sticking to the boundaries permitted by their faith (the minority).

I think an economic standard also plays a big role in this. Let's say Turkey joins the EU and becomes stronger economically. Better economy means better living and better education. Will this cause people to come closer to Islam or tempt more and more people to distance themselves from it? It's a hard question to answer. Some might say that if you have better education, especially Islamic education (and no I don't mean indoctrination) that you would be more attracted to the Islamic life because you can see the truth and feel the spirit of Islam more than the people who don't know much about it. On the other hand, if the education system continues to promote secular ideals while banning religious displays in their schools and colleges, you're bound to have less and less people interested in any kind of religion.

Another point of view is that which I think is going on in places like America now. People have everything they want in their lives so they look for more, spiritually, this in some cases leads them to Islam. Perhaps Turkey will become like that.

I know some people that went to Turkey and told me about the Islam over there, which to me highly resembles the kind of Islam found in Bosnia, which I've seen first hand. If things are really looking like that, then I don't see anything positive about it at all. You might hear the athan 5 times a day, but how many people really "hear" it, and how many people just hear it a nuisance, like an annoying fly that just won't go away, and how many people don't even notice it? And here's one...how many people actually respond to it? More and more young people will be attracted to secular, liberal life, because it's the kind of life that shaytan tells them is good and will make them happy, while the religious people will slowly get their rights taken away one by one until they can't stand living where they do and emigrate elsewhere. The only way to return Islam to Turkey is to organize the situation real good so that more people have access to Islamic teachings, have Islamically-oriented community events (all the time), learn about Islam in public schools while letting people dress how they want, as well as putting some restrictions in the media -- to not be so liberal.

Either that or re-conquer it with an Islamic army :P

[vpb]

may Allah guide this ummah.

[sevgi]

It's really funny how life works sometimes. Give people enough freedom and they will go in one of two directions. Either they will go as far as they can in exercising their freedom (the majority) or they will choose to use this freedom only to practice their religion freely while sticking to the boundaries permitted by their faith (the minority).

I think an economic standard also plays a big role in this. Let's say Turkey joins the EU and becomes stronger economically. Better economy means better living and better education. Will this cause people to come closer to Islam or tempt more and more people to distance themselves from it? It's a hard question to answer. Some might say that if you have better education, especially Islamic education (and no I don't mean indoctrination) that you would be more attracted to the Islamic life because you can see the truth and feel the spirit of Islam more than the people who don't know much about it. On the other hand, if the education system continues to promote secular ideals while banning religious displays in their schools and colleges, you're bound to have less and less people interested in any kind of religion.

Another point of view is that which I think is going on in places like America now. People have everything they want in their lives so they look for more, spiritually, this in some cases leads them to Islam. Perhaps Turkey will become like that.

I know some people that went to Turkey and told me about the Islam over there, which to me highly resembles the kind of Islam found in Bosnia, which I've seen first hand. If things are really looking like that, then I don't see anything positive about it at all. You might hear the athan 5 times a day, but how many people really "hear" it, and how many people just hear it a nuisance, like an annoying fly that just won't go away, and how many people don't even notice it? And here's one...how many people actually respond to it? More and more young people will be attracted to secular, liberal life, because it's the kind of life that shaytan tells them is good and will make them happy, while the religious people will slowly get their rights taken away one by one until they can't stand living where they do and emigrate elsewhere. The only way to return Islam to Turkey is to organize the situation real good so that more people have access to Islamic teachings, have Islamically-oriented community events (all the time), learn about Islam in public schools while letting people dress how they want, as well as putting some restrictions in the media -- to not be so liberal.

Either that or re-conquer it with an Islamic army :P

cool observation. but i really must say that people in turkey dnt just hear the adhan. i wish there were stats on this but according to my observations and experiences, i must say that 90% of the 99% muslim population in Turkey actually do pray.

maybe brother shev or abdil han can give us a more insightful estimation coz they actually live there.

salamz...

[rania2820]

turkey is the most un-islamic muslim country i've ever seen.they claim that they are moderate muslim.but they are way on the left.and its an act of kufr (doesn't mean that they are kaffir just doing acts of kufr) for them to be saying they hate shariah and that they believe secularism is better than shariah law. what i think they don't realize is that shariah law is the quran and sunnah.
remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?

may Allah help them, ameen!

[sevgi]

agreed sis.
turkey is the most un-islamic muslim country i've ever seen.they claim that they are moderate muslim.but they are way on the left.and its an act of kufr (doesn't mean that they are kaffir just doing acts of kufr) for them to be saying they hate shariah and that they believe secularism is better than shariah law. what i think they don't realize is that shariah law is the quran and sunnah.
remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?

may Allah help them, ameen!

im affraid uve misunderstood what i was trying to say...please go back to my old posts and read them, u will realise that we are actually pretty much on opposing sides.

you will realise that ur bias is so full on that u are doing harm to ur fellow muslims by badmouthing them.

i urge u to read my first post over and over and u will get the answers to the comments u have just made about turkish muslims.

mite i add that i outlined the two entities:islamic turkey and the democratic turkey...shariah can only be implemented through an islamic state...not through the muslims living in a country...

May Allah guide the thoughts of our ummah...

[Skywalker]

cool observation. but i really must say that people in turkey dnt just hear the adhan. i wish there were stats on this but according to my observations and experiences, i must say that 90% of the 99% muslim population in Turkey actually do pray.

Whoa!! That's a bit of an extreme over-estimation, don't ya think?? I don't think that you have that many people even praying in KSA, where it's illegal not to pray!

If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.

Maybe you get this impression because of the people that you hang out with, but you must keep in mind that not everyone is like that. In fact, I'd say the majority are quite different.

[sevgi]

Whoa!! That's a bit of an extreme over-estimation, don't ya think?? I don't think that you have that many people even praying in KSA, where it's illegal not to pray!

If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.

Maybe you get this impression because of the people that you hang out with, but you must keep in mind that not everyone is like that. In fact, I'd say the majority are quite different.

why do u insist on relating turkey with bosnia...they are so out of line, i have no idea what u are basing ur observations on...

why do i say 90%??? coz so much of the Turkish population is made up of villagers with nothing else to do but pray...there is a mosque on nearly every street in urban areas, especially istanbul, and they are full to the rim at adhan time, let alone non-peak hour...when its adhaning, u can barely walk past mosques due to how rushy people are to get in...and this is only the people going to mosques...thousands pray at home or at work...or even in parks...

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Let's all talk respectfully, because i've seen the posts and alhamdulillah no-one has the intention of offending the other, so we shouldn't take offense if someone throws in an exclamation mark (!) in every now and then. :)

[Skywalker]

why do u insist on relating turkey with bosnia...they are so out of line, i have no idea what u are basing ur observations on...

Well, basically Islam in Bosnia originates from the Ottomans, and up till now their way of praying and their customs are identical to those of Turks, which someone told me was following the Hanafi mathdab. Some of these customs are very different than what's practised in all other places of the world. Secondly, a lot of my friends visited Turkey and told me about what they saw over there. Their descriptions were very similar to what I'd seen first hand in Bosnia...and therefore I find it natural to compare the two out of the knowledge that I have.

Here's something from Wikipedia about Islam in Bosnia:

For Bosnian Muslims, religion often serves as a community identifier, and religious practice is confined to occasional visits to the mosque or significant rites of passage such as birth, marriage, and death. Due to more modern influences and 45 years of communism, some Bosniaks have Atheist, Agnostic or Deist beliefs (Pre war estimate of 10% of total population). While there are significant numbers of Bosniaks who practice their faith to varying degrees, for others, this identity tends to be secular and is based primarily on ancestral traditions and ethnic loyalty. Bosniaks also have a reputation for being "liberal" Muslims. Headscarves for women, popular in middle-eastern countries, are worn only by a minority of Bosniak Muslim women, and otherwise mostly for religious obligations.

That's the effect of secularism on the country.

why do i say 90%??? coz so much of the Turkish population is made up of villagers with nothing else to do but pray...there is a mosque on nearly every street in urban areas, especially istanbul, and they are full to the rim at adhan time, let alone non-peak hour...when its adhaning, u can barely walk past mosques due to how rushy people are to get in...and this is only the people going to mosques...thousands pray at home or at work...or even in parks...

Well if that's the way you see it, who am I to argue? You live there after all. I'm just saying what I've heard and seen, as well as making a logical assumption that a place Turkey, which is a secular country with people protesting against Islamic governments, is very unlikely to have more people praying than a place like KSA which is Sharia country. But again, you live there so you know more than me.

I hope you didn't take offense from anything I said, I'm just posting my thoughts.

[islamirama]

Hundreds of thousands of Turks have rallied in the city of Izmir to protest against any government plans to undermine Turkish secularism.


Buildings and streets in Izmir were covered in flags and portraits of Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the republic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6651461.stm

Turkey may have practicing Muslims but they are mute as thousands of secular ones take to the streets. These are old generation Muslims who whorship kemal the kuffar. The newer generations are praciting Islam more and more alhamdulillah, so inshallah won't be long till this old generation dies out and new generation of muslims replace them. Then we can see turkey becoming bit more islamic friendly and not so secular extremist.

[AHMED_GUREY]

:sl:
There wouldn't be a Turkiye if it wasn't for Ataturk we need to process the fact that when you insult this man you will offend Turks wether there muslim or secular we might not agree with his policies later on in life but let's stay respectfull because he did save them from a brutal Partitioning and if we look at our muslim brothers and sisters in Palistine and the injustice there one will understand why many Turks regard him as a saviour and a hero.

Many governments today who govern a muslim majority seem to be slipping away (or in other cases when they embrace their faith they are invaded), therefore the Turkish government is not a unique case in that sense, i think it has more to do with the pressure that's being put upon them by the EU( membership status in economic terms will definitly boost the Turkish GDP which might explain why the average Turkish muslim farmer is silent towards this administrations foreign/domestic policy) if they were allowed to join it without pre-conditions i think we would see a shift

but calling another brother or sisters ''people'' non muslims or bad muslims is hurtfull and counter-productive since most of the time the person projecting these statements never visited [insert name of the country] but base it upon hearsay dogma which in turn causes a knee-jerk reaction from the offended brother or sister and tada!! a internet flame war between muslims (no not halal beef lol:D but pure sadness)

The fact that many Turkish brothers and sisters both from Turkiye and abroad frequent (and are members off) various muslim forums shows the great interest many teenagers have for Islam and this goes for every group out there

Let's all pray the Last Islamic Empire that will destroy the present-day borders between muslims around the world and unite them arrives in our lifetime Insha-allah:)
:w:

[islamirama]

:sl:

ataturk was a kuffar, may he burn in Hell forever!

:sl:
There wouldn't be a Turkiye if it wasn't for Ataturk we need to process the fact that when you insult this man you will offend Turks wether there muslim or secular we might not agree with his policies later on in life but let's stay respectfull because he did save them from a brutal Partitioning and if we look at our muslim brothers and sisters in Palistine and the injustice there one will understand why many Turks regard him as a saviour and a hero.

Many governments today who govern a muslim majority seem to be slipping away (or in other cases when they embrace their faith they are invaded), therefore the Turkish government is not a unique case in that sense, i think it has more to do with the pressure that's being put upon them by the EU( membership status in economic terms will definitly boost the Turkish GDP which might explain why the average Turkish muslim farmer is silent towards this administrations foreign/domestic policy) if they were allowed to join it without pre-conditions i think we would see a shift

but calling another brother or sisters ''people'' non muslims or bad muslims is hurtfull and counter-productive since most of the time the person projecting these statements never visited [insert name of the country] but base it upon hearsay dogma which in turn causes a knee-jerk reaction from the offended brother or sister and tada!! a internet flame war between muslims (no not halal beef lol:D but pure sadness)

The fact that many Turkish brothers and sisters both from Turkiye and abroad frequent (and are members off) various muslim forums shows the great interest many teenagers have for Islam and this goes for every group out there

Let's all pray the Last Islamic Empire that will destroy the present-day borders between muslims around the world and unite them arrives in our lifetime Insha-allah:)
:w:

No sooner had he assumed power than he made bold to declare that he would destroy every vestige of Islam in the life of the Turkish nation. Only when the authority of Islam was utterly eliminated could Turkey "progress" into a respected, modern nation . He made speech after public speech, fearlessly and brazenly attacking Islam and all Islam stands for:

For nearly five hundred years, these rules and theories of an Arab Shaikh and the interpretations of generations of lazy and good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and criminal law of Turkey. They have decided the form of the Constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learned in his schools, his customs, his thoughts-even his most intimate habits. Islam - this theology of an immoral Arab - is a dead thing. Possibly it might have suited tribes in the desert. It is no good for modern, progressive state. God's revelation! There is no God! These are only the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down. A ruler who needs religion is a weakling. No weaklings should rule![3]

After his divorce from Latifa, his shamelessness knew no limits. He drank so heavily that he became a drunkard and a confirmed alcoholic. Venereal disease wrecked his health. Handsome young boys became objects of his lust and so aggressive was his behaviour toward the wives and daughters of his political supporters that they began sending their womenfolk as far as possible out of his reach. Indeed, a close associate of Atatürk, Riza Nur, observed that:

Our respected leader has one habit. He loves women. He has to change them rapidly. He must be the chief court-taster.[8]


-------------------

The Destruction of the Khilafah - 3rd March 1924


http://www.khilafah.com/kcom/the-khi...-khilafah.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dawaah/message/1148

[abdil han]

remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?

may Allah help them, ameen!

salam aleykum,

sister u misunderstood it i guess..

they re complaining becoz next to that park there is a mosque,and people were saying that 'lets keep green areas,we have already a mosque which is very close to here''..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...

most of the times it looks so different from outside...

vassalam

[abdil han]

If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.

salam bro,

the percentage of people who prays 5 times in a day regularly is about 30-40% as u said...
and about 70% goes to jum'a prayers alhamdulillah,
but islam is rising especially among the young people and im hopefull...

and what about bosnian muslims?
by the way,does it make sense to make people pray compulsory?

maybe it s good,i m not sure...

take care

vassalam

[Skywalker]

..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...

Exactly! I saw the same thing in Bosnia. They had this big newspaper ad about how the Grand Mufti was opening a new mosque and spending all this money on it, and even starting an argument with some Croat neighbours for building it. At the end it was just going to be an empty mosque like all the others. Once I practically had to break into a mosque to pray the dhuhr because it had been closed and locked for months. It was a real shame.

but islam is rising especially among the young people and im hopefull...

I'm glad to hear that. Just don't underestimate the temptations of shaytan.

and what about bosnian muslims?

Well when it comes to prayer, I'd estimate that only about 20% do so, with only about 5% or less praying in mosques. A lot come for the jumu3a though, maybe about 60-70%. They have strange names for the prayers though, maybe this has to do with some Turkish influence. They call the mahgharib prayer "aksham" or something like that, and the other ones have strange names too.

As for the younger people, in some communities they really are trying to change things, especially communities that have Middle Eastern influence. But I think the majority of communities have very passive young people.

It doesn't help that Bosnia has expelled all of the brave mujahideen that came to fight for the people during the war, who started re-introducing proper Islam into the communities. Those brave men even married over there and had to leave their wives and children behind, only to end up in prisons in their own countries. :enough!:

The extent some countries go to for secularism and EU acceptance...it's disgusting.

by the way,does it make sense to make people pray compulsory?

That actually makes you question a lot of things. Does it make sense to make hijab compulsory in Sharia countries? How about banning alcohol? If you do that, then how is there free will to choose between good and evil?

Perhaps someone else can share their thoughts on this with us...

[north_malaysian]

First of all I'm sorry for my harsh words about Turkey and Turks (like wanting an Independent Kurdistan or to recognise Armenian Genocide). I'm still supporting those things ..but.. I'll keep my mouth shut about those issues for the time being.

Personally, I've met Turkish students in the university (IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia) and they're very religious.

Every year, thousands of Turks visit Malaysia... but you dont see them in the discotheques or bars in Starhill areas... because the only Middle-Eastern tourists who frequents those places are either Arabs or Iranians.

In fact, when my sister attended Islamic History Class in IIUM. While the Malaysian Muslim students were bashing the Turks for being seculars and anti-Islam. Suddenly a Turk brother woke up and said "Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism."

But, as what I've read here..... it's not what we've seen on the TV... We've seen thousands of "European looking" people waving the "Crescent and Star" (which supposed to symbolise Islam) flags and crying anti-Islam slogans. If the majority of the Turks support AK Party, why they dont do counter-demonstrations? We've seen it in lebanon. Why not in Turkey.

As long as the International media are showing those Anti-AK Party demonstrations ONLY... Muslims worldwide would thing that Turks are loosing their Islamic identity.

[Skywalker]

Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism.

A little off-topic, but isn't Malaysia a secular country in the first place, except with a high Muslim population?

[Muslim Knight]

A little off-topic, but isn't Malaysia a secular country in the first place, except with a high Muslim population?

Sadly this is true. The founding father of Malaysia has said that the nation is not meant to be an Islamic state but secularly-governed. Islam is the official religion but so far it has remained only "official".

[rania2820]

salam aleykum,

sister u misunderstood it i guess..

they re complaining becoz next to that park there is a mosque,and people were saying that 'lets keep green areas,we have already a mosque which is very close to here''..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...

most of the times it looks so different from outside...

vassalam

no i wasn't misunderstanding. you must be be talking about another case. because in the case I'm talking about they were interviewing people about it and they were saying how its a sign of extremism in Islam and they didn't want it.

[abdil han]

Once I practically had to break into a mosque to pray the dhuhr because it had been closed and locked for months. It was a real shame.


I'm glad to hear that. Just don't underestimate the temptations of shaytan.


They have strange names for the prayers though, maybe this has to do with some Turkish influence. They call the mahgharib prayer "aksham" or something like that, and the other ones have strange names too.


That actually makes you question a lot of things. Does it make sense to make hijab compulsory in Sharia countries? How about banning alcohol? If you do that, then how is there free will to choose between good and evil?

salam aleykum bro,

such a thng (a mosque which is closed for months) has never happened in my country alhamdulillah,there are more than 70 000 mosques in Turkiye n all of them is open everytime(busy mosques are open everytime till night but if it s a small one,they open it in every prayer time)..


you are right bro,nefs n shaytan is very very dangerous...
Allahumme ecirni min'an nar,amin..

about the strange names;they are turkish names of prayers bro,sabah-öğle-ikindi-aksham n yatsı...we also use them here in turkiye...


and about compulsory prayers;i understood my fault,thank you brother,and i ve read a book about it(the order of Muhammed'ul Fatih/Ottoman Sultan),he sent this to all governers of Ottomans and he said'' its ur duty to keep people pray 5 times in day and make them obey the rules of sharia''...

wassalam

[abdil han]

First of all I'm sorry for my harsh words about Turkey and Turks (like wanting an Independent Kurdistan or to recognise Armenian Genocide). I'm still supporting those things ..but.. I'll keep my mouth shut about those issues for the time being.

Personally, I've met Turkish students in the university (IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia) and they're very religious.

Every year, thousands of Turks visit Malaysia... but you dont see them in the discotheques or bars in Starhill areas... because the only Middle-Eastern tourists who frequents those places are either Arabs or Iranians.

In fact, when my sister attended Islamic History Class in IIUM. While the Malaysian Muslim students were bashing the Turks for being seculars and anti-Islam. Suddenly a Turk brother woke up and said "Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism."

But, as what I've read here..... it's not what we've seen on the TV... We've seen thousands of "European looking" people waving the "Crescent and Star" (which supposed to symbolise Islam) flags and crying anti-Islam slogans. If the majority of the Turks support AK Party, why they dont do counter-demonstrations? We've seen it in lebanon. Why not in Turkey.

As long as the International media are showing those Anti-AK Party demonstrations ONLY... Muslims worldwide would thing that Turks are loosing their Islamic identity.

salam bro,

first of all,an armenian genocide has never happened by my grand fathers...i ll write later about this inshaALlah...

and about kurdistan;there are 10 million kurds are living in my country and we dont have any problem with them,we are equal n they have what we have...
lets talk later about this too...

and about the counter-demonstrations;the army is very strong here n they are supporting those seculars,so if we do counter-demonstrations,it will make the situation worse and the army will think that we wanna stop secularism ..and then they will not allow religious people to live their deen as free as now...60 years ago all the Kur'an courses n islamic schools were closed..alhamdulillah the situation is better now(except the hijab problem)...

about we Turks,i m working as a guide in istanbul and everyday i meet many people from everywhere,and i am very sorry that iranian people(women especially) live like a european when they come here,women make up very very much,and they are dressing up very western!!(i guess u got what i mean)...of course i cant say every iranian is the same but i see many of them...the same situation is in arabic people too but not as much as iranians...


lets pray Allah to make us true in our deed ...

salam n du'a...

[abdil han]

no i wasn't misunderstanding. you must be be talking about another case. because in the case I'm talking about they were interviewing people about it and they were saying how its a sign of extremism in Islam and they didn't want it.

salam sister,

maybe we re talking about different cases..im not sure...

[north_malaysian]

Sadly this is true. The founding father of Malaysia has said that the nation is not meant to be an Islamic state but secularly-governed. Islam is the official religion but so far it has remained only "official".

Actually Tun Mahathir (our previous PM) declared Malaysia as already an Islamic state in the Parliament, few days after the 9/11 attacks.

And the current Prime Minister, also stressing that Malaysia is an Islamic state and introducing his "Islam Hadhari" (Civilisational Islam) principles to Malaysian public.

The DAP (Democratic Action Party) wants Malaysia to be a secular nation and ask the current government to stop declaring Malaysia as an Islamic nation.

Meanwhile PAS (Pan-Malaysia Islamic Party) wants Malaysia to be the "True" Islamic nation, and claimed that currently Malaysia is not an Islamic nation.

[north_malaysian]

such a thng (a mosque which is closed for months) has never happened in my country alhamdulillah,there are more than 70 000 mosques in Turkiye n all of them is open everytime(busy mosques are open everytime till night but if it s a small one,they open it in every prayer time)..

Whoa... it's a good thing that they dont control mosques in Turkey.

In Malaysia, some mosques were demolished by the authorities. Some mosques were locked and open only for prayer time. In many states, some religious figures are banned from preaching in the mosques. And the worst thing is that, the current government wants it party's members to be the chairmen and committee members in all mosques' committee. Some of those, people never pray but were chosen to be the chairmen of the mosque committees.... CRAZY!

[syilla]

Whoa... it's a good thing that they dont control mosques in Turkey.

In Malaysia, some mosques were demolished by the authorities. Some mosques were locked and open only for prayer time. In many states, some religious figures are banned from preaching in the mosques. And the worst thing is that, the current government wants it party's members to be the chairmen and committee members in all mosques' committee. Some of those, people never pray but were chosen to be the chairmen of the mosque committees.... CRAZY!

do you have the lists of the mosques...

[north_malaysian]

do you have the lists of the mosques...

* Masjid Kampung Bujal, Terengganu (demolished 26.05.2005)
* Surau Seksyen 2, Taman Bendar Puteri Jaya, Sg. Petani, Kedah (demolished 17.04.2006)
* Surau Fatimah al Zahra, Taman Kosas, Selangor
* Surau Jubli Perak, Bandar Baru Bangi, Selangor
* Masjid Al Hidayah, Kelana Jaya, Selangor
* Masjid Al Munawwarah, Petaling Jaya Selangor
* Surau Ar Rashidin, Gombak, Selangor
* Masjid Darul Ehsan, Subang Jaya, Selangor

Source: http://www.ladang.net.my/idimensi/mo...rticle&sid=752

so there are 8 mosques..

[Darkseid]

This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Million Protesters Gather In Istanbul

Updated: 17:52, Sunday April 29, 2007
Up to a million protesters have gathered in Istanbul accusing the government of planning an Islamist state and demanding it withdraw its presidential candidate.

Despite the Istanbul protests and a threat from the powerful army to intervene in the election, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, architect of Turkey's EU membership drive, said he would remain the ruling AK Party's candidate for head of state.

The protesters flooded the streets of Turkey's largest city to priase the army and denounce Gul and Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK Party enjoys a huge parliamentary majority, as a threat to a secular order separating state and religion.

"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," they chanted.

"Turkey is under threat from the AK Party leadership. We will not be able to express our thoughts like this if they stay in power," said protester Cigdem Yilmaz, 22, a student.

Top Turkish businessmen called for early parliamentary elections, which the AK party would appear well placed to win.

Many secularists are worried by Gul's Islamist past and the fact his wife wears the Muslim headscarf banned in universities and public offices.

But the AK Party, which has vigorously pressed liberal reforms and European Union membership ambitions, since election in 2002, denies any secret agenda.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...263302,00.html

Well if they can also manage to ask for an end to their empire over the Kurds, Zazas, and Arabs then all will be rather peachy.

[islamirama]

Don't read too much into the news. The media likes to lie and throw in extra stuff. There's no million man protest or other mumbo jumbo. There's several thousand people protesting and nothing more. The AKP told the parliment (since they couldn't make up their mind) to change the rules and rather then them, let the people of Turkey vote and decide who their leader be. Why would a party do that if the country was against it? Pathetic media lies and nothing more.

Oh and AKP has done more for Turkey then any of these other secular parties. AKP helped improve the economy and so many other facits and helped pull Turkey to where it is right now. If they were unpopular they wouldn't hold most seats in the gov't

A comparison of the seats these parties held in the Turkish Parliament before (Oct 27) and after Nov 3, 2002:


AKP (Justice and Development Party) : Founded in 2001 as a pro-Islamist party by Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Gul, AKP gradually gained higher votes in each local and general elections surprising other political parties. In 2002 they became as the first party from the polls, with Abdullah Gül first as the Premiere, then Tayyip Erdogan after his political ban ended. All three coalition parties eliminated. CHP emerged as main opposition. For the first time in almost two decades, AKP ended up forming a single-party government. AKP rejects the "Islamist" label and claims that it is a pro-Western mainstream party with a "conservative" social agenda but also a firm commitment to liberal market economy and European Union membership. Today they have 367 members in TBMM.

[Skywalker]

The fact that the "AKP" is a somewhat Islamically-oriented party is very encouraging. What surprised me from that article was that Abdullah Gul is the one that's in charge of the EU membership drive, and at the same time is a man who supposedly has Islaimic values.

What I don't understand is how this AKP is Islamically-oriented when they're "vigorously pressing liberal reforms"? Anybody care to explain?

[north_malaysian]

The fact that the "AKP" is a somewhat Islamically-oriented party is very encouraging. What surprised me from that article was that Abdullah Gul is the one that's in charge of the EU membership drive, and at the same time is a man who supposedly has Islaimic values.

What I don't understand is how this AKP is Islamically-oriented when they're "vigorously pressing liberal reforms"? Anybody care to explain?

Abdil Han should have a good answer for that...

[KAding]

Don't read too much into the news. The media likes to lie and throw in extra stuff. There's no million man protest or other mumbo jumbo. There's several thousand people protesting and nothing more. The AKP told the parliment (since they couldn't make up their mind) to change the rules and rather then them, let the people of Turkey vote and decide who their leader be. Why would a party do that if the country was against it? Pathetic media lies and nothing more.

Oh and AKP has done more for Turkey then any of these other secular parties. AKP helped improve the economy and so many other facits and helped pull Turkey to where it is right now. If they were unpopular they wouldn't hold most seats in the gov't

A comparison of the seats these parties held in the Turkish Parliament before (Oct 27) and after Nov 3, 2002:


AKP (Justice and Development Party) : Founded in 2001 as a pro-Islamist party by Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Gul, AKP gradually gained higher votes in each local and general elections surprising other political parties. In 2002 they became as the first party from the polls, with Abdullah Gül first as the Premiere, then Tayyip Erdogan after his political ban ended. All three coalition parties eliminated. CHP emerged as main opposition. For the first time in almost two decades, AKP ended up forming a single-party government. AKP rejects the "Islamist" label and claims that it is a pro-Western mainstream party with a "conservative" social agenda but also a firm commitment to liberal market economy and European Union membership. Today they have 367 members in TBMM.

Nobody ever claimed the AK was not popular. You really should stop always accusing everyone else of lying and erecting these straw men, it betrays a very negative world view. If you would take a look at the chart you posted, you would notice the AK party got 34% of the vote. This is not a majority, it means 66% of the people voted for one of the other parties, pretty much all of which are more secular than the AKP. The Turks are simply very divided about this issue. Stop making this an issue of a few secular madman against the will of the people represented by the AK party.

Besides, are you sure you really want to side with the AK party? These are the same people that loudly praise Ataturk and want Turkey to join the European Union. This is the same Gul and Erdogan that wanted to support the US in the Iraq invasion but eventually got defeated by a parliamentary majority.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=44995

Two opinion polls published Thursday showed that the AKP was still Turkey's most popular party, leading its rivals with a wide margin ahead of the parliamentary elections.

The first survey, carried in the weekly magazine Tempo, found that 41.3 percent of respondents would vote for the AKP if elections were held instantly, reported AFP.

The CHP was second with only 13.6 percent of the vote.

A second poll, published in the Vatan newspaper, measured support for the AKP at 29.04 percent, with CHP second with 14.08 percent.

The survey published in Tempo found that 39.3 percent of Turks support the military's intervention, while 42.7 believe it was wrong.

Besides, it was not just the press that was 'lying' about the huge demonstrations. Your attempt to change a million protesters into 'thousands' is not supported by any facts. These figures were estimates by the police, not 'lying media'.

[KAding]

The fact that the "AKP" is a somewhat Islamically-oriented party is very encouraging. What surprised me from that article was that Abdullah Gul is the one that's in charge of the EU membership drive, and at the same time is a man who supposedly has Islaimic values.

What I don't understand is how this AKP is Islamically-oriented when they're "vigorously pressing liberal reforms"? Anybody care to explain?

When you are repressively secular and nationalist such as Turkey, liberal reforms also mean more religious and cultural freedom, for all groups, be they Christians, Kurds or indeed Muslims. So in this sense being more liberal also means being less hostile to Islam. It is only when you insist on starting to enforce Islamic rulings that liberalism and Islam become each others opposites.