Are we gods?

[cleo]

God said, "Let us make man in our image and likeness. Who was He talking to?"
Don't call us liars. Yet, I still believe that God is one.

Question? "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness." Who is US, and what is OUR image? Just a thought, my friend brought this up, and I can't answer who US is or OUR is. Do you know?

[barney]

:D @ Purest

Cleo, the stock answer is he was talking using the royal "we" like the Queen does.
Who was he talking to? Itself.
Why?
God knows.
:rollseyes

The Quran and Bible use He Me I We Us Our Him Us amongst others. Makes no real litery sense.

[Redeemed]

You are zonked!

Let me be zonked, cauz I'd rather be mad and glad than be sane and sad.

[جوري]

that is poetic man!

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[Redeemed]

that is poetic man!

LOL:laugh:

[barney]

I understand what you're saying. I would be confused too if i was trying to understand it the way you are.

Yup, if you havnt faith , then it basically reads.

A plan was decreed from the dawn of time. Having created sinful man, God contrives to get himself whacked, as only the spilling of his own blood can save mankind from his own wrath and cleanse his sin, bearing in mind that he is all-merciful. Then throw in a ghost for good measure.:skeleton:

[MustafaMc]

Question if I may . Can you give me the overstanding of this word . Allahumma . :)

O Allah.

[Redeemed]

Yup, if you havnt faith , then it basically reads.

A plan was decreed from the dawn of time. Having created sinful man, God contrives to get himself whacked, as only the spilling of his own blood can save mankind from his own wrath and cleanse his sin, bearing in mind that he is all-merciful. Then throw in a ghost for good measure.:skeleton:

Like Dylan says: "you gotta serve somebody; it might be the devil it might be the Lord you gotta serve somebody." If we don't accept the Lord now while we are alive then the devil takes us when we die!

[barney]

Serve mankind.

Work together for the greater good and shun the devisiveness of organised religion to create not destroy, although it is mans nature, working together we can work towards th former and discard the latter.

[ummzayd]

I must have not made myself clear. What I meant was His love is passed my understanding not the sacrifice. When I consider the work of thy hands OH God, the sun, stars and moon, who am I that thou are mindful of me? Someone who is guilty of sin couldn't pay the price for my sin; it took the shedding of innocent blood which Jesus did willingly for me. It is that kind of Love that passes my understanding. It is written: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God.":statisfie

typical smug Christian, telling us patronisingly 'you are loved' & 'I love you in Christ' etc. and yet unable to resist rubbing our noses in the 'fact' that you are 'saved' & we are not (as you see it).

also, you claimed that one difference between you & I, is that you as a Christian are more humble because you understand that you haven't earned your salvation, it was a gift from God that otherwise you as a miserable sinner could never attain. whereas I, Muslim, am in danger of pride and arrogance by believing that God told me I can get to Paradise by obeying Him.

can I just say, that humility doesn't exactly shine out of your posts. AND, you DO 'earn' your salvation by having faith in a blood-thirsty God unable to forgive sins at will? That is the deal, no?

so, your salvation has been earned (according to your creed).

[ummzayd]

If God wants to let His Lamb take the guilt for my sin, I am going to be very thankful and not bite the hand that is saving me. You see my guilt is so bad that there is no amount of good I can do to pay for it. Since God is just, He cannot let me go unpunished so He let His Lamb take it for me; otherwise, I could not be forgiven.

I don't know what terrible sins you have committed in your life, and I won't ask, but I would just pass on this hadith qudsi:

Allah the Almighty has said: O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

:)

[Redeemed]

typical smug Christian, telling us patronisingly 'you are loved' & 'I love you in Christ' etc. and yet unable to resist rubbing our noses in the 'fact' that you are 'saved' & we are not (as you see it).

also, you claimed that one difference between you & I, is that you as a Christian are more humble because you understand that you haven't earned your salvation, it was a gift from God that otherwise you as a miserable sinner could never attain. whereas I, Muslim, am in danger of pride and arrogance by believing that God told me I can get to Paradise by obeying Him.

can I just say, that humility doesn't exactly shine out of your posts. AND, you DO 'earn' your salvation by having faith in a blood-thirsty God unable to forgive sins at will? That is the deal, no?

so, your salvation has been earned (according to your creed).

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity. And in a sense, I am receiving God's gift through an act of faith, if you call it earning it, I won't argue with you. But as I said before, we must come to God on His terms not our own or someone else's terms. :cry:

[Redeemed]

Question? "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness." Who is US, and what is OUR image? Just a thought, my friend brought this up, and I can't answer who US is or OUR is. Do you know?

I know God is never alone in heaven. He has created many angels and other creatures that we haven't seen, or He could have been talking to His Son. Nevertheless, I don't fully understand, but that doesn't mean God's word isn't true.:rollseyes

[ummzayd]

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity.

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

[Keltoi]

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

In simplistic terms that description is not far off. It was an act of mercy. Of course Christ Jesus was much more than a "friend", but the emotions involved are similar. We as Christians believe that Christ's suffering was an act of love, which granted human beings forgiveness and a way to eternal life. Obviously it is more complicated than simply talking about a "friend", but the concept is not far off point.

[ummzayd]

In simplistic terms that description is not far off. It was an act of mercy. Of course Christ Jesus was much more than a "friend", but the emotions involved are similar. We as Christians believe that Christ's suffering was an act of love, which granted human beings forgiveness and a way to eternal life. Obviously it is more complicated than simply talking about a "friend", but the concept is not far off point.

the 'concept', as you put it, revolves around the fact that God DEMANDS the spilling of the blood of the innocent in order to forgive the sins of the guilty. that is what is unacceptable, and all your pretty talk about 'friends laying down their lives' is irrelevant.

so far no explanation for this has been forthcoming except 'we must accept God's terms' or 'well if God is going to sacrifice His lamb for me I'm not going to argue' or 'I don't understand it with my understanding' (and if you weren't referring to the concept here, alapiana, & you actually DO understand the logic, justice and good sense of the doctrine, please share that understanding with us).



I leave you with some bible quotes to ponder:

'In loving kindness I have taken delight, and not in sacrifice, and in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings'. Hosea 6:6

'Righteousness and judgement are more preferable to God than sacrifice' Proverbs 21:3

peace

[Keltoi]

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22)

Of course righteousness and judgement are more preferable to God than sacrifice, but as the Old Testament shows us, sacrifice was often the accepted method of achieving God's forgiveness for sin.

Sacrifice was God's way of teaching us the seriousness of sin, it was not an end in itself. Instead of snuffing out a person for sin or rebellion, God offered a way for the forgiveness of sins, the death of an animal instead of a person. A lamb or goat or bull was costly, teaching that sin is costly. The requirement of a blood sacrifice for sin was ultimately fulfilled in Christ, who is the sacrifice for our sins, once and for all. No further sacrifice can be made. Any subsequent sacrifice of an animal is an affront to God, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ Jesus was not enough.

[Redeemed]

so the doctrine of original sin & atonement by the blood of the christ is like 'someone laying down their life for a friend' is it?

either you have the intellect and understanding of a 3 year old or you think I do....

goodbye

How would I or you have the intellect of a 3-year old because we see The Christ taking our punishment like a big brother? In other words, older brother takes blame so his little brother or sister doesn't get in trouble. Or are you trying to say a 3-year old child can understand this message??? Jesus did say you must receive the kingdom of heaven as a child in order to enter. To be blunt, the Jesus in the Koran is different than the one in the Bible. I don't know that Jesus, and I don't want to know him, because that Jesus is a false prophet. My Jesus loves me so much that He laid down His life so I could be right with God. That doesn't mean I can live a sinful life, but it does mean I am set free from sin. In other words, before I was a prisoner or slave to sin and had to do its biding, but now I have a choice. Finally, God is not mocked a person will reap what he/she sows. :eek:
You are loved

[Redeemed]

Yup, if you havnt faith , then it basically reads.

A plan was decreed from the dawn of time. Having created sinful man, God contrives to get himself whacked, as only the spilling of his own blood can save mankind from his own wrath and cleanse his sin, bearing in mind that he is all-merciful. Then throw in a ghost for good measure.:skeleton:

that is right it was decreed from before the foundation of the worlds that Christ would be the ransom for many.
You are loved

[barney]

that is right it was decreed from before the foundation of the worlds that Christ would be the ransom for many.
You are loved

Christians are great, theyre so warm n fuzzy.

Hugs right back at you.

[Balthasar21]

Question? "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness." Who is US, and what is OUR image? Just a thought, my friend brought this up, and I can't answer who US is or OUR is. Do you know?

( The Word Eloheem )

The Word Eloheem < Aramic > Means '' These Beings '' Or '' A Group Of Elohs '' Eloheems Are Angels Of '' El '' Or Messengers Of '' El Eloh '' Who Anu . They Are Physical Angelic Beings , Not Spooks Or Spirit Or Ghost . They Are A Host Of Beings That Do The Words Of '' El '' . While On The Planet Earth Under An Appointed Being , Then They Are Called '' El '' Who Under Al Or El . The Word '' Eloheem '' Is Found Throughout The Scroll Of Genesis And Is Falsely Translated As '' God '' The Name Eloheem Is Used For Both '' Agreeable And Disagreeable Beings And Even Humans As In .

Exodus 7;1 , When Yahuwa < Aramic > Told Moses That He Will Make Him An Eloheem For The Pharoh

[lilah]

The Bible says in Psalms 82 that you are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High. The Most High is Allah. If we are gods and children of the Most High, it shouldn't sound strange that God is a begetter and Jesus is His only Begotten Son. Muslims don't believe we are gods. And it is shirk to be partners with Allah (swt). Allah is the most High and none is like Him. Muslims believe the Bible/Gospel is not the original copy but still contains some truth. Whatever is accordance with the Qur'an is accepted and what is not is rejected. They believe that Allah does not beget nor is He begotten. It is the first 5 books of the Bible, the Psalms and the gospels, however, that Muslims pray that they must believe in, and if not, they are not following Allah's will. God’s word cannot be changed. Neither can the fact that Allah said, "Ye are gods." God made us in His image and likeness. Jesus said, “Is it not written in your law Ye are gods then why do you marvel that I say I am the Son of God?" I would like for Muslims to answer this question they conveniently don’t seem to believe. If you don't accept that Allah said, "You are gods," you are rejecting Allah's word. Muslims also believe The Bible has been changed a lot over time, but it has NOT change. There are just different translations, and some are better than others, but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek. If you do, you will find that Allah said, “Ye are gods.” So don't think me strange or that I am presumptuous when I say that “I am a friend of God, and I know that I have eternal life,” but you are not sure you have it. The Bible was written according to Scripture so that we could know that we have salvation and that is only in His Son the only way to Allah according to the Scriptures. It is a good idea to look at and meditate on Psalm 82. I did and Allah showed me great and wonderful things that I know not. I am not trying to preach, but I am trying to scratch down deep enough to find the truth.


---End Quote---
Now your just starting to preach...

the injil, or the bible as it was first written is extinct, doesn't exist....gone
manipulated and changed by the hands of man.

Surah Baqarah
2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
....

2:79 So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[Trumble]

You seem to have missed his rather important comment that

but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek

OK, even the Greek (I don't know a lot about the Hebrew) isn't quite that simple there being two major 'versions' - the major difference being selection of passages rather than what the text actually says). But the faults or otherwise of the King James version, RSV or whatever as translations are irrelevant; neither part of the Bible was written in English.

Greek versions of the NT are widely available, and there are a surprisingly large (and increasing) number of people who learn Koine Greek to read them and other early Christian literature.

[lilah]

You seem to have missed his rather important comment that



OK, even the Greek (I don't know a lot about the Hebrew) isn't quite that simple there being two major 'versions' - the major difference being selection of passages rather than what the text actually says). But the faults or otherwise of the King James version, RSV or whatever as translations are irrelevant; neither part of the Bible was written in English.

the original greek (or hebrew) doesn't exist...you couldn't identify the original even if it did...which one is which...?

[Redeemed]

Christians are great, theyre so warm n fuzzy.

Hugs right back at you.

lol:laugh:

[Trumble]

the original greek (or hebrew) doesn't exist...you couldn't identify the original even if it did...which one is which...?

Agreed, but your reference was to the KJV and the RSV, not the Greek.

If you compare the KSV with its "grave defects" to the Revised version (American or otherwise) intended to correct them you will discover no significant theological differences in the message itself. Likewise (the Greek) between Westcott-Hort and the Textus Receptus. From (frequently) different manuscripts, while the precise text may differ what it actually says does not. As Christians don't believe the NT to be the direct Word of God in the way muslims consider the Qur'an to be, what differences there might be simply don't matter much; the message is the same. As the same message comes from different selections of manuscripts that's a decent indicator that it is the same as that offered by the 'originals'. How accurately those may have described actual events is, of course, a different question.

[lilah]

Agreed, but your reference was to the KJV and the RSV, not the Greek.

If you compare the KSV with its "grave defects" to the Revised version (American or otherwise) intended to correct them you will discover no significant theological differences in the message itself. Likewise (the Greek) between Westcott-Hort and the Textus Receptus. From (frequently) different manuscripts, while the precise text may differ what it actually says does not. As Christians don't believe the NT to be the direct Word of God in the way muslims consider the Qur'an to be, what differences there might be simply don't matter much; the message is the same. As the same message comes from different selections of manuscripts that's a decent indicator that it is the same as that offered by the 'originals'. How accurately those may have described actual events is, of course, a different question.

unless i'm mistaken, the original poster suggested that

Muslims also believe The Bible has been changed a lot over time, but it has NOT change. There are just different translations, and some are better than others, but that is not to stop people from researching the original text in Hebrew and Greek.

the bible has changed by man's hands. I've watched the history channels banned from the bible and was surprised as to how many books were left out of the bible for one reason or another....just eh, left out of the bible.

also, how can you research the original text in hebrew and greek when it doesn't exist? besides, if an original hebrew text of the bible emerged somewhere claiming that there is only 1 god and that jesus (as) was a prophet, it would be blasted as a forgery and rejected by 90% of the christian world especially the evangelicals...

[MustafaMc]

I don't know what terrible sins you have committed in your life, and I won't ask, but I would just pass on this hadith qudsi:

Allah the Almighty has said: O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

:)

This is one of my favorite hadiths. The Mercy of Allah is without measure. The beauty of Islam is all one needs to do is to believe there is only One God and ask for forgiveness for your sins.

[MustafaMc]

I don't see how someone who lays down their life for a friend as being a bloodthirsty entity. And in a sense, I am receiving God's gift through an act of faith, if you call it earning it, I won't argue with you. But as I said before, we must come to God on His terms not our own or someone else's terms. :cry:

This is exactly what we Muslims are saying and Allah's terms are that no partners be ascribed to Him and to accept Muhammad (pbuh) as his last Messenger.

[Redeemed]

This is exactly what we Muslims are saying and Allah's terms are that no partners be ascribed to Him and to accept Muhammad (pbuh) as his last Messenger.

We don't consider Jesus as ascribing a partner to God or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That is why we consider God one. Now if we held that same view of Jesus that you do, than that Jesus would be ascribing a partner to Him. But our Jesus is much different than yours. He is the Word of God Himself.
Yes, Jesus took a subordinate role to the Father, because he was spirit made into to flesh to relate to us. God create us, and He desired to relate to us in a very special way that we could understand. I would kneel to talk to a child so we could look at each other eye to eye. It might be hard for you to see a God that loves us that much, but it is not for us Christians. Jesus loves us so much that He would rather go to hell with us than go to heaven without us. Our God is committed to us and we have a confidence that is unparalleled. I believe it makes those who don't receive Christ as Lord of their life jealous of us.
:statisfie

[lilah]

We don't consider Jesus as ascribing a partner to God or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That is why we consider God one. Now if we held that same view of Jesus that you do, than that Jesus would be ascribing a partner to Him. But our Jesus is much different than yours. He is the Word of God Himself.
Yes, Jesus took a subordinate role to the Father, because he was spirit made into to flesh to relate to us. God create us, and He desired to relate to us in a very special way that we could understand. I would kneel to talk to a child so we could look at each other eye to eye. It might be hard for you to see a God that loves us that much, but it is not for us Christians. Jesus loves us so much that He would rather go to hell with us than go to heaven without us. Our God is committed to us and we have a confidence that is unparalleled. I believe it makes those who don't receive Christ as Lord of their life jealous of us.
:statisfie

We are god's creation...not his children.

we are on earth to worship and recieve our creator....not the creation. when i pray, it is Allah (SWT) that hears me, not Jesus (AS). When i ask for something, i ask it of Allah (SWT) not Jesus.

When anybody is in danger, or fears death approaching, they reach their hands up in the sky and ask for God's (Allah's) mercy or help...but the minute the danger passes, they thank Jesus (AS). When people are in dire straits they say, 'oh god what am i going to do...' but then when things clear up...Jesus (AS) saved me! Your instincts say one god, but your taught to associate partners with him. They ask Jesus (AS) to save them and forgive their sins, when it is Allah (SWT) that accepts repentence.

2:109 Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent

2:116 They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him

Allah (SWT) gave us the capacity to reason and think logically. At this time in human development, we have the ability to somewhat understand astronomy, biology, mathmatics, and so on. What is it about religon that Allah (SWT) had to water down for us? Why is it that the nature of the universe does not have to be dumbed down for us...but religon does. I am not helpless to save my self by asking Allah (SWT) for his mercy, his forgiveness, and his guidance.

There are some people that would never believe in the greatness of God. If the heavens opened up, and angels started singing, they wouldn't believe. If God showed them miracle after miracle they wouldn't believe. They would only belive once death took them...and now they are facing a life of eternal ****ation for their disrespect of God's Laws and his messengers. tell me how people like that deserve paradise?

You talk of kneeling down to talk to your child to see him eye to eye....would you cut the head off of your best, obedient child so his blood could save the life of your possessed one? How blood sacrifices didn't become sunnah in your religon, i have no idea! How is it that courts today don't find the innocent guilty and sentence them to the punishment that the criminals deserve....to save the criminals.

Jesus loves us so much that He would rather go to hell with us than go to heaven without us.

i'd like to see the bible passage for that one...

Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: but if any of you after that resisteth faith I
will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the
peoples.

And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men
`worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to
Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou
wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not
what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit
`Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I
dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over
them and Thou art a Witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art
the Exalted the Wise.

Surah Al Madia 5:116-116

[poga]

Let me be zonked, cauz I'd rather be mad and glad than be sane and sad.

:sl: alapiana i have two question
1 is Jesus is the god
2 did jesus believed in the day of judgement
please give reference for question 2:w:

[ummzayd]

Let me be zonked, cauz I'd rather be mad and glad than be sane and sad.

methinks your prayer has been answered! congratulations!

(personally I'm sane and glad, and all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala).

[Redeemed]

methinks your prayer has been answered! congratulations!
:laugh:
(personally I'm sane and glad, and all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala).

lol :laugh:

[Redeemed]

We are god's creation...not his children.

we are on earth to worship and recieve our creator....not the creation. when i pray, it is Allah (SWT) that hears me, not Jesus (AS). When i ask for something, i ask it of Allah (SWT) not Jesus.

When anybody is in danger, or fears death approaching, they reach their hands up in the sky and ask for God's (Allah's) mercy or help...but the minute the danger passes, they thank Jesus (AS). When people are in dire straits they say, 'oh god what am i going to do...' but then when things clear up...Jesus (AS) saved me! Your instincts say one god, but your taught to associate partners with him. They ask Jesus (AS) to save them and forgive their sins, when it is Allah (SWT) that accepts repentence.






Allah (SWT) gave us the capacity to reason and think logically. At this time in human development, we have the ability to somewhat understand astronomy, biology, mathmatics, and so on. What is it about religon that Allah (SWT) had to water down for us? Why is it that the nature of the universe does not have to be dumbed down for us...but religon does. I am not helpless to save my self by asking Allah (SWT) for his mercy, his forgiveness, and his guidance.

There are some people that would never believe in the greatness of God. If the heavens opened up, and angels started singing, they wouldn't believe. If God showed them miracle after miracle they wouldn't believe. They would only belive once death took them...and now they are facing a life of eternal ****ation for their disrespect of God's Laws and his messengers. tell me how people like that deserve paradise?

You talk of kneeling down to talk to your child to see him eye to eye....would you cut the head off of your best, obedient child so his blood could save the life of your possessed one? How blood sacrifices didn't become sunnah in your religon, i have no idea! How is it that courts today don't find the innocent guilty and sentence them to the punishment that the criminals deserve....to save the criminals.


i'd like to see the bible passage for that one...

You really don't understand the true spirit of Christianity or you would not make these comments or show me the Scriptures about not worshiphing God's creation Mary. We know these things. No where in the Bible does it say or imply that Mary should be worshipped; additionally, our Lord and Savior Jesus is not a creation of God like your Jesus is, and God didn't cut off Jesus' head. It is written, "The preaching of the cross is to those that perish foolishness."
You asked to see a Scriture on what i said that Jesus would rather go to hell than heaven without us. First of all, note that i don't say things that i can't back up with Scripture. I say that cause I don't have the time to prove I am right about what is true about Christianity and the Bible. You can research the Bible for yourself if you really care to know; nevertheless, this time, I'll let you know that Jesus would not only rather go to hell with us than heaven without us but in fact did go to hell. PS 16:10 and Acts 2:31 that refers to the Psalms. God swore an oath from the fruit of His lions, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on the throne of David. He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, wherefore we are all witnesses.:omg:

[Redeemed]

We are god's creation...not his children. Speak for yourselves.
we are on earth to worship and recieve our creator....not the creation. when i pray, it is Allah (SWT) that hears me, not Jesus (AS). When i ask for something, i ask it of Allah (SWT) not Jesus.

When anybody is in danger, or fears death approaching, they reach their hands up in the sky and ask for God's (Allah's) mercy or help...but the minute the danger passes, they thank Jesus (AS). When people are in dire straits they say, 'oh god what am i going to do...' but then when things clear up...Jesus (AS) saved me! Your instincts say one god, but your taught to associate partners with him. They ask Jesus (AS) to save them and forgive their sins, when it is Allah (SWT) that accepts repentence.






Allah (SWT) gave us the capacity to reason and think logically. At this time in human development, we have the ability to somewhat understand astronomy, biology, mathmatics, and so on. What is it about religon that Allah (SWT) had to water down for us? Why is it that the nature of the universe does not have to be dumbed down for us...but religon does. I am not helpless to save my self by asking Allah (SWT) for his mercy, his forgiveness, and his guidance.

There are some people that would never believe in the greatness of God. If the heavens opened up, and angels started singing, they wouldn't believe. If God showed them miracle after miracle they wouldn't believe. They would only belive once death took them...and now they are facing a life of eternal ****ation for their disrespect of God's Laws and his messengers. tell me how people like that deserve paradise?

You talk of kneeling down to talk to your child to see him eye to eye....would you cut the head off of your best, obedient child so his blood could save the life of your possessed one? How blood sacrifices didn't become sunnah in your religon, i have no idea! How is it that courts today don't find the innocent guilty and sentence them to the punishment that the criminals deserve....to save the criminals.




i'd like to see the bible passage for that one...

I am His creation, but also His child. I could see how that would make someone jealous.
That is, if Muslims or anyone else believes they are only a creation. God created lots of things such as trees, grass, stars, sun, moon, and animals like dogs, cats and pigs. I am of much more value to Him than these and so are you. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come the the knowledge of the truth. Jesus said, He is The Truth!!!:D

[Balthasar21]

Allahumma <> 3 ; 26 , 5 ; 114 , 8 ; 32 , 10 ; 10 , 39 ; 46 .

The word Allahumma mean '' O Allah . The Source - and Hum '' They - The Eloheem Anunnaqis , Allahumma is another word that was derived from The Hebrew word , Eloheem , Meaning '' These Beings Or A Group Of Elohs '' Allahumma or Eloheems are angels of El or messenger of El - Anu . Usually in The Koran when it says , '' That We Did This Or We Created This , Or Our Signs , Etc '' It is referring to these Allahumma or Eloheem , Anunnaqis . They are Physical Angelic Beings ; Not Spooks or Spirits or Ghost .


They are beings that do the work of El , or Allah . The word Allahumma or Eloheems is found throughout The Scroll of The Koran , And is Falsely Translated As A Single , With the word '' God ' , The name Allahumma or Eloheems is used for Benevolent , Agreeable and Malevolent , Disagreeable Beings ,

And Even In The Case For Human Beings , As Found In Exodus 7 ; 1 When Yahuwa Made Moses And Eloheem To Pharaoh Rameses ll

[- Qatada -]

If we are God's creation, then why is He prepared to punish the arrogant disbelieving ones for eternity?

If someone was to use the argument that God punishes the wrong doers for a temporary amount of time like parents do, i don't understand how the argument would work if it meant it would remain that way for eternity?


Please could you explain that?



The Islamic stance is that if the person was warned clearly, with clear proofs - the disbeliever rejected God's message in took it in jest, and belied it. Even when the clear proofs had come to them, and if given a life of eternity - they would remain in a state of ungratefulness and disbelief to Allaah, and they had already been warned - yet they chose to reject it. So the promise is bound to take place whether they accepted it or not.

No soul bears the burden of another, and on the Day of Judgement we will all be questioned on what we did in this life.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.


[Qur'an 5: 116-120]

[NoName55]

God danged lying plagerist (not Br. Fi_Sabilillah)

Black People | African American > Open Forum and All Other Topics > Spirituality and Religion > What Is Will ?
What Is Will ?


http://www.destee.com/forums/archive...p/t-28496.html

[Redeemed]

I Might Be Wrong But I Think Your Talking About '' Will ''

The Word For '' Will '' In Ashuric / Syriac ( Arabic ) Is Mashiyya Which Comes From The Root Word Shayaa-A Or Yashaa-A And Means '' By Which One Deliberately Chooses Or Decides Upon A Course Of Actions ; An Instance Of The Exercising Of This Faculty ; A Delibrate Decision Or Concusion ; Choice . '' Will Is That Which Was Given To Kadmon / Zakar / Adam , By THE MOST HIGH , '' Will '' Was That Which Made Kadmon / Zakar / Adam More Knowledgeable Then The Eloheem And The Luciferians .

'' Will '' Was Also That Which Made Kadmon / Zakar / Adam Fall In The Eyes Of THE MOST HIGH . In Other Word '' Will '' Is To Do What One Chosses , To Have One's Way . To See Fit To One's Own THINKING . When You Were Created You Were Given 360 Degree Of Knowledge . You Were Created Spiritually On The Fourth Plane . The Mental Plane , Which Is Above The Spiritual Plane . You Had Direct Contact With The Anunnaqi / Eloheem Melchizedek And THE MOST HIGH , You Had 360 Degrees Of Knowledge ( 180 ) Degrees Positive And ( 180 ) Degrees Negative . And You Acquired ''' Will ''

What Do I Mean When I Say That Kadmon / Zakar / Adam Was Created With 360 Degrees Of Knowledge ? Kadmon / Zakar / Adam And Human Beings Had Knowledge Of The Anunnaqi / Eloheem ( 180 Degrees Of Positive And Of The Devil / Jinn 180 Degrees Of Negative . 360 Degrees Was Represented By The Circle . A Full Circle Is Equal To 360 Degrees And Represents The Infinite . All Things Are Bayna Between The Hands Of THE

MOST HIGH . Only He Had The Power To Take A Line And Bend It ( Like The Woman And The Rib ) . And The Continue Bending It Into A Circle . The Beginning Of The Line Is Alif . The End Of The Line A Yaa . The Bringing Together Of The Two Points. Alif And Yaa , Is What Porduced The Infinite . Infinite Has No Ending Nor Beginning . No Distinct Points Of Direction . All Points Are Of The The Same Distance From The Center .

To The Line ( Circumference ) Of The Circle And Cannot Be Extended In Any Direction Extreme . Only The Most Hight Knows The Beginning And The End Of The Circle Man Has No Knowledge Of This .
If You Take That 360 Degree Circle And Cut It In Half , You'll Have 180 Degrees . Or Half Of The Whole . But , It Is Also A Whole , Because It Is A Whole Half . It Is Lets Than A Whole ( 360 Degrees ) . But Within Itself Is A Whole . After THE MOST HIGH Formed The Circle ( Infinite ) . THE MOST HIGH Then formed The Square .

The Aquare Is Finite ( Having Boundaries ) . Finite Has Four Points Or Direction And All Points From Center To Perimeter Are Not The Same Distance . Thus The Square . A Perfect Four-Sided Geometric , Is Equal To 360 Degrees . If You Remove One Of The Quarters . You Will Find That It Has Four 90 Degrees Angles . Totaling 360 Degrees , Thus Rendering It A Whole . You Take That Square . The Sum Of Whole Eloheem Total 360 Degrees And Divide It Into Four ( 4 ) Quadrants ( EqualsParts . )


Each Angle Of The Quartered Square Equal 90 Degrees . When Broken Up Into 4 Little Boxes . Each Of These Little Boxes Becomes A Whole And Will Also Equals 360 Degrees , And So On Continuously Breaking Down Into Its Separate Building Blocks , Cells , Atom , Right Down To The Spirit . Upon The Study Of How Man's Nature Is Formulated . We Can Get An OverStanding Of How The Rest Of Creation Came About .

As A Square Breaks Down Into Its Separate Building Blocks And Cells , Right Down To The Spirit . We Have The Formation Of Atoms . He Took The Circle And Turned It Inside Out And Placed It Within The Confines Of The Square , By First Separating The Circle Into Four ( 4 ) Equal Parts . The Four Parts . THE MOST HIGH Caused To Merge And Form . Because Both The Square And The Circle Equal The Same Quantity ( 360 Degrees ) .

They Both Have The Same Charge What Happen When Two Like Charges Are Put Together . They Push Away From Each Other -- They Repel . But Because Of The Tremendous Force And Pressure Exerted During The Fusion ( A Force That Made Them Act . ) , They Submittted Contrary To Their Natural Act Of Repelling . Two Distinct '' Incomplete '' Square ( Hydrogen Atoms ) Formed .

And After Being Subjected To The Intense Command Of The Most High Merged Together . When The '' Incomplete '' Square Merged , They Formed One Single Complete Square . The Center Of Each Square And Each Circle Became As One . If You LQQk Closely , You Will See Every Quarter Part Of The Circle Within The Square . This Was The Helium Atom , One Of The Stepping Stones Of The Building Block Of Life .

I don't want to be judged by my works. Because, if I just sin once, I have missed the mark. It is almost like putting in a web-site address. If you enter it in almost perfectly, it is not good enough you won't be able to get in. We must be perfect to enter heaven if we are judged on the works we do for eternal life. That is why Muslims don't know if they are saved, but Christians know they're cause they don't have to earn salvation; it is a gift. If we refuse it than we are judged by our works. It is written, HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF GOD IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT A SALVATION?

[Balthasar21]

I don't want to be judged by my works. Because, if I just sin once, I have missed the mark. It is almost like putting in a web-site address. If you enter it in almost perfectly, it is not good enough you won't be able to get in. We must be perfect to enter heaven if we are judged on the works we do for eternal life. That is why Muslims don't know if they are saved, but Christians know they're cause they don't have to earn salvation; it is a gift. If we refuse it than we are judged by our works. It is written, HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF GOD IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT A SALVATION?

Ether way you have the will to do Agreeable things or disagreeable things meaning ether you obey the laws or you don't .

[ummzayd]

I don't want to be judged by my works. Because, if I just sin once, I have missed the mark. It is almost like putting in a web-site address. If you enter it in almost perfectly, it is not good enough you won't be able to get in. We must be perfect to enter heaven if we are judged on the works we do for eternal life. That is why Muslims don't know if they are saved, but Christians know they're cause they don't have to earn salvation; it is a gift. If we refuse it than we are judged by our works. It is written, HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF GOD IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT A SALVATION?

How have you missed the message? GOD IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL. He forgives our sins.

you keep contradicting yourself when you quote scripture. for example you said 'the soul that sins must die'. however the doctrine of 'Jesus the sacrificial lamb' contradicts this. also, you just said 'we must be perfect to enter heaven'. are you perfect? who is perfect?

this is the nub of the matter: God said (according to you) that the soul that sins must die - BUT then He said uh actually no, instead of that the sinner will enter paradise because I will transfer all his sins onto a perfect human, and HE will die instead.

How is that a superior belief to the perfectly just, beautifully simple belief that

1. each person is responsible for his/her own sins
2. God is so loving and forgiving and powerful that He forgives our sins, in fact LOVES forgiving our sins, when we ask him with sincerity - and that is all we have to do.

peace

[Redeemed]

How have you missed the message? GOD IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL. He forgives our sins.

you keep contradicting yourself when you quote scripture. for example you said 'the soul that sins must die'. however the doctrine of 'Jesus the sacrificial lamb' contradicts this. also, you just said 'we must be perfect to enter heaven'. are you perfect? who is perfect?

this is the nub of the matter: God said (according to you) that the soul that sins must die - BUT then He said uh actually no, instead of that the sinner will enter paradise because I will transfer all his sins onto a perfect human, and HE will die instead.

How is that a superior belief to the perfectly just, beautifully simple belief that

1. each person is responsible for his/her own sins
2. God is so loving and forgiving and powerful that He forgives our sins, in fact LOVES forgiving our sins, when we ask him with sincerity - and that is all we have to do.

peace

My Sister in humanity:
I appreciate you patience. What I trying to say is everyone that is responsible for their own sin is doomed without Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. This is due to God's justice. God's justice will not be compromised. The wages of sin is death (all and any sin - even if it is only one small white lie) I could never see any hope for myself as a Muslim. Believe me when I say, I see crystal on this matter. Jesus said, "Let not your heart be trouble you believe in God believe also in me, in my Father's house there are many mansions if this were not so I would tell you. I go and prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also." You are right that God is forgiving and loving and faithful and just, but we have to meet Him on His terms. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I will not be deceived. There is no hope of forgiveness outside of accepting Jesus as your redeemer. That is the way God wants it and that is the way it will be. We can lean to our own understanding; however, there is a way that seems right to man, but that way leads to death.:phew

[Redeemed]

Shalom,

While some missionaries claim the plural "us" means the Christian trinity, even evangelical commentaries (G. J. Wenham, NIV Study Bible, Charles Ryrie, Jerry Falwell, Keil and Delitzch) recognize this is a fallacy (see Let's Get Biblical, Tovia SInger, p.51). These Christian scholars recognize that there is something called the "majestic plural," i.e. a King speaks on behalf of his kingdom in a plural form. An example is Isaiah 6:6, where G-d says among His retinue of angels "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

The absurdity of a trinitarian interpretation is shown by the fact that not once in the Hebrew Bible is a plural verb ever applied to G-d. In Hebrew verbs are conjugated according to gender and singular/plural. The very next verse says "He created," not "they created," with regards to the creation of man.

Rashi has a beautiful explanation: G-d is modeling proper conduct to the reader by showing that one should consult inferiors before acting. Only G-d created man, but G-d showed respect to His subordinates.

Didn't God say let us make man in our image and likeness, and doesn't the Hebrew use the plural for God on other occasions? (Elohim)

[MustafaMc]

Didn't God say let us make man in our image and likeness, and doesn't the Hebrew use the plural for God on other occasions? (Elohim)

No, we don't believe that He created man in His image. This is a quote from the Bible that we disbelieve in.

[ummzayd]

My Sister in humanity:
I appreciate you patience. What I trying to say is everyone that is responsible for their own sin is doomed without Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. This is due to God's justice. God's justice will not be compromised. The wages of sin is death (all and any sin - even if it is only one small white lie) I could never see any hope for myself as a Muslim. Believe me when I say, I see crystal on this matter. Jesus said, "Let not your heart be trouble you believe in God believe also in me, in my Father's house there are many mansions if this were not so I would tell you. I go and prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also." You are right that God is forgiving and loving and faithful and just, but we have to meet Him on His terms. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I will not be deceived. There is no hope of forgiveness outside of accepting Jesus as your redeemer. That is the way God wants it and that is the way it will be. We can lean to our own understanding; however, there is a way that seems right to man, but that way leads to death.:phew

you seem to agree that it is unjust, and yet we have to accept it, is that it?

peace

[poga]

We don't consider Jesus as ascribing a partner to God or the Holy Spirit for that matter. That is why we consider God one. Now if we held that same view of Jesus that you do, than that Jesus would be ascribing a partner to Him. But our Jesus is much different than yours. He is the Word of God Himself.
Yes, Jesus took a subordinate role to the Father, because he was spirit made into to flesh to relate to us. God create us, and He desired to relate to us in a very special way that we could understand. I would kneel to talk to a child so we could look at each other eye to eye. It might be hard for you to see a God that loves us that much, but it is not for us Christians. Jesus loves us so much that He would rather go to hell with us than go to heaven without us. Our God is committed to us and we have a confidence that is unparalleled. I believe it makes those who don't receive Christ as Lord of their life jealous of us.
:statisfie

:sl: jealous of you what for
are muslims fed up with theirs wisdom so much that they started fancy your ignorance
PS i did post one more question in this topic yesterday for you
are you going to avoid it

[MustafaMc]

My Sister in humanity:
I appreciate you patience. What I trying to say is everyone that is responsible for their own sin is doomed without Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary. This is due to God's justice. God's justice will not be compromised. The wages of sin is death (all and any sin - even if it is only one small white lie) I could never see any hope for myself as a Muslim.

Yes, Adam, Cain, Moses, Pharaoh and almost all humans born before 1900 have already died. Even Jesus will return and must die before that Day along with the rest of us. Your lack of hope for Muslims shows clearly your reliance upon Jesus for your salvation - clearly and unequivocally you are ascribing partners with Allah. Your very words will be used against you on that Day.

Believe me when I say, I see crystal on this matter. Jesus said, "Let not your heart be trouble you believe in God believe also in me, in my Father's house there are many mansions if this were not so I would tell you. I go and prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also." You are right that God is forgiving and loving and faithful and just, but we have to meet Him on His terms. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I will not be deceived. There is no hope of forgiveness outside of accepting Jesus as your redeemer.

So you also put limitations on Allah to forgive only according to your Christian formula. My understanding from the Quran is that all sins are forgivable except ascribing partners with Allah. Clearly we both can't be right. For you you have your religion and for me I have Islam as my religion.

That is the way God wants it and that is the way it will be. We can lean to our own understanding; however, there is a way that seems right to man, but that way leads to death.:phew

This is merely according to your understanding of the Bible which I believe is packed full of errors.

[Woodrow]

I posted this in another thread, but I feel it is worth repeating.


47: 2. Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the way of ALLAH - HE renders their works vain.
47: 3. But as for those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in that which has been revealed to Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - HE removes from them their sins and sets right their affairs.
47: 4. That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does ALLAH set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
47: 8. O ye who believe ! if you help the cause of ALLAH, HE will help you and will make your steps firm.
47: 9. But those who disbelieve, perdition is their lot; and HE will make their works vain.
47: 10. That is because they hate what ALLAH has revealed; so HE has made their works vain.
47: 11. Have they not traveled in the earth and seen what was the end of those who were before them ? ALLAH utterly destroyed them, and for the disbelievers there will be the like thereof.
47: 12. That is because ALLAH is the Protector of those who believe, and the disbelievers have no protector.
47: 13. Verily, ALLAH will cause those who believe and do good works to enter the Gardens underneath which streams flow; While those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat even as the cattle eat, and the Fire will be their last resort.

47: 18. But as for those who follow guidance, HE adds to their guidance, and bestows on them righteousness suited to their condition.
47: 19. The disbelievers wait not but for the Hour, that it should come upon them suddenly. The Signs thereof have already come. But of what avail will their admonition be to them when it has actually come upon them.
47: 20. Know, therefore, that there is no god other than ALLAH, and ask protection for thy human frailties, and for believing men and believing women. And ALLAH knows the place where you move about and the place where you stay.

47: 22. Their attitude should have been one of obedience and of calling people to good. And when the matter was determined upon, it was good for them if they were true to ALLAH.
47: 23. Would you not then, if you are placed in authority, create disorder in the land and sever your ties of kinship ?
47: 24. It is these whom ALLAH has cursed, so that HE has made them deaf and has made their eyes blind.
47: 25. Will they not, then, ponder over the Qur'an, or, is it that there are locks on their hearts ?
47: 26. Surely, those who turn their backs after guidance has become manifest to them, Satan has seduced them and holds out false hopes to them.
47: 31. And if WE pleased, WE could show them to thee so that thou shouldst know them by their marks. And thou shalt, surely, recognize them by the tone of their speech. And ALLAH knows your deeds.
47: 32. And WE will, surely, try you, until WE make manifest those among you who strive for the cause of ALLAH and those who are steadfast. And WE will make known the true facts about you.
47: 33. Those, who disbelieve and hinder men from the way of ALLAH and oppose the Messenger after guidance has become manifest to them, shall not harm ALLAH in the least; and HE will make their works fruitless.
47: 34. O ye who believe ! obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger and make not your works vain.
47: 35. Verily, those who disbelieve and hinder people from the way of ALLAH, and then die while they are disbelievers - ALLAH certainly, will not forgive them.





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