Clear - Adam and Even in the Garden - What is the official Islamic Doctrine?

[Clear]

Do the ahadith or the quran discuss in any detail the circumstances of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

1) Does the the Quran or other ahadith describe the relationship between Adam’s spirit and his body? That is : Does Islam teach that the man Adam is made up of a spirit which has intelligence and personality which animates and gives life to Adam’s mortal body?

In this literature, Are Adam and Eve created as initially immortal creatures? That is to ask: Would they have forever had they not eaten of the tree of knowledge (immotal), or were they created as mortals (they would have died whether or not they ate of the fruit of the tree)?

Thank you in advance for any answers.

Clear

P.S. I also am curious as to the most common Old Testament version Muslims in the United States read. It is the KJV or the NIV or another version? I was told I should quote from the NIV as that is what another person said most Muslims would be reading. Is this correct?

[Woodrow]

Do the ahadith or the quran discuss in any detail the circumstances of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

1) Does the the Quran or other ahadith describe the relationship between Adam’s spirit and his body? That is : Does Islam teach that the man Adam is made up of a spirit which has intelligence and personality which animates and gives life to Adam’s mortal body?

In this literature, Are Adam and Eve created as initially immortal creatures? That is to ask: Would they have forever had they not eaten of the tree of knowledge (immotal), or were they created as mortals (they would have died whether or not they ate of the fruit of the tree)?

Thank you in advance for any answers.

Clear

P.S. I also am curious as to the most common Old Testament version Muslims in the United States read. It is the KJV or the NIV or another version? I was told I should quote from the NIV as that is what another person said most Muslims would be reading. Is this correct?

At the moment I will just ry to answer the last question. Here in the States a large number of Muslims are reverts from Christianity. Most of them will still have there old Bibles and since the KJV is probably the most common I would say the above is right. For my self I use the old Catholic Versions particulary the old Latin Vulgate as that is what I grew up with.

However, it really makes no difference as we do not consider any of the versions to be authentic or valid.

[Clear]

Woodrow

Thank you for your answer. I simply assumed the KJV would have been (generally) the most common Old/New testament version quoted by Muslims but was not sure.

I did ask another Muslim regarding whether Adam was immortal or mortal upon Adam's creation but he didn't know. I was hoping that someone here might know more? In any case I appreciate any informed opinion of Islamic doctrine.

Clear

[Woodrow]

About the first 100 ayyats of Surah 2 cover creation to a large degree. I belive these here may be at least part of what you are looking for. If I understand your Question properly.

2:29. He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. Y S
2:30. And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. Y S C

2:31. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. Y S C
2:32. They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. Y S
2:33. He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide. Y S

2:34. And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever. Y S C
2:35. And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. Y S C

2:36. But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time. Y S C
2:37. Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful. Y S C

2:38. We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Y S C
2:39. But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein. Y S C

2:40. O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me. Y S C


Pickthal's Quran Translation

ANSAR: Comment could be misunderstood (see next post). Hope you don't mind!

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[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Clear,

It seems your understanding of the narrative regarding Adam and Eve is heavily influenced by the Biblical descriptions, which are quite different in many key ways from the Islamic understanding. You will find some of these points highlighted in this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html

Humanity was intended from the start to be on earth; the period in heaven was only a 'pre-test', if you will. In other words, our mortality has nothing to do with Adam's eating from the tree as you will read in the above link.

As for the OT, since it is not the scripture of Muslims, Muslims do not adhere to any specific version and usage of the OT amongst Muslims is mostly limited to comparative scriptural studies.

Peace.

[Woodrow]

Jazakallahu Khairn for the clarification. That does bring everything into better perspective.

[Clear]

Ansaw

You are correct that I've couched my questions in Christian terms though I doubt my take on the garden is typical christian.

I read your link and again, after printing it out and reading all the pages I am
left wondering about my original questions: i.e.

#1 the relationship between adam's spirit and his body and

#2 whether Adam and Eve are immortals upon creation. (I am assuming that they were immortal in islamic theology?)

This method you are using of simply providing a link that may or may not be what I am seeking is very inefficient for me. Could you simply try to give me an answer rather than a link. For example on inefficiency, you can read the link you gave me and point out the description of the relationship between adam's spirit and his body. Is such information even in your link? Am I overlooking it?

I would like to know more aout Islam, but I am becomming a bit discouraged that this forum is the way to get the specific information I am looking for. Is there another place to ask these types of specific questions regarding Islam?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

You can ask scholars. They will be able to help you understand better as they are more learned than us.

[NoName55]

excerpt from Br. Estes Article

........... Think of Adam, peace be upon him. He was in the Paradise. His wife was there with him. They were told that they could eat of anything there in the Paradise. And they did.

But they were also told not to eat of a specific fruit. Did they do it?

Yes.

Why?

Because they had to in order for everything to be like it is.

Let me clarify for you. Almighty God always is in complete and total control. There is never a time when He is asleep or not paying attention to all that He has created. So He knows in advance everything that is going to happen and all of this that we call the universe and everything in it is under His control.

He did not have to put the fruit in there with Adam, peace be upon him, right?

He did not have to let the devil tempt them, right?

He did not have to kick them out of the Paradise as He did, right?

Of course.

So, why in fact, did Almighty God create everything?

It is for us.

It is a test.

Adam passed his test.

Eve passed her test.

How?

They were created to be human, not gods. So naturally, they are like you and I in the fact that they are weak and they do things that are wrong and even sinful.

Do you acknowledge that all of us are sinners? I do.

So how is it that I say that Adam and Eve PASSED their test?

After all, they ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree. That was bad. Right?

They did it.

What the Bible has lost is the true moral to the story. Others came along later and began to try to make a totally different meaning out it, even blaming Eve for the first sin and for influencing Adam to do the same. And then suddenly she is going to be punished with the affliction of menstrual periods and child birth and all of this is her punishment. Adam, according to the Biblical account is tossed out of the Paradise because of this sin, along with Eve.

According to Islam, the story is pretty close, but with the true moral understanding and teachings.

All along Almighty God was going to put them out of the Paradise into the earth so that they could be tested.

The real test was not whether or not they would eat the fruit. The real test is what they would do after they ate the fruit.

Repentance is the word that we are looking for here. After Adam and Eve were put out of the Paradise (near the Holy Land), Adam went one way and Eve wound up going some other way. They did not see each other for a while.

Adam, peace be upon him, repented and placed his head down on the ground...........

[Clear]

Jazzy

I very much appreciate the advice. I had hoped to find an Islamic Scholar to reply to my question on the forums. Do you have an internet forum or site in mind as a source of answers on Islam? Thank you in advance for your time.


Noname55
I am having the exact same problem with your post as I am with the posts and links offered by Ansar - Your post doesn't answer my specific questions. where in your post is the answer to my initial questions which were:

#1 the relationship between adam's spirit and his body and

#2 whether Adam and Eve are immortals upon creation. (I am assuming that they were immortal in islamic theology?)

Does anyone else here see the answers that I am missing. I feel I am speaking a different logical language than the people who (I think) are trying sincerely (I think) to answer my questions.

Does ANYONE else here see the answer to my specific questions in the links or posts I've been given?

Thank you for the time and "second opinion" from another person on this issue.

Clear

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I don't think Adam and Eve would be considered immortal. But dont take my word for it.

The only 1 i know is

www.islamonline.net

You can search on yahoo/google for some diff webs or someone here can provide u some.

Peace :)

[Clear]

Jazzy

Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU. for a simple, clear statement Jazzy.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Ok, but pleasee do find out. I dont wana be giving you wrong info, get me?

Peace :)

[islamirama]

Jazzy

I very much appreciate the advice. I had hoped to find an Islamic Scholar to reply to my question on the forums. Do you have an internet forum or site in mind as a source of answers on Islam? Thank you in advance for your time.


Noname55
I am having the exact same problem with your post as I am with the posts and links offered by Ansar - Your post doesn't answer my specific questions. where in your post is the answer to my initial questions which were:

#1 the relationship between adam's spirit and his body and

#2 whether Adam and Eve are immortals upon creation. (I am assuming that they were immortal in islamic theology?)

Does anyone else here see the answers that I am missing. I feel I am speaking a different logical language than the people who (I think) are trying sincerely (I think) to answer my questions.

Does ANYONE else here see the answer to my specific questions in the links or posts I've been given?

Thank you for the time and "second opinion" from another person on this issue.

Clear

The relationship between adam's spirit and his body is the same one we have. There's a body (a vessel) and then there is spirit (a soul). When death finds us, we leave the vessel and move to next part of life.

How can they be immortal if they are dead? They were not made to be immortals since they had bodies and bodies that were made from clay were made weak to perish over time. Now Allah made the soul to live surpass that and the soul shall live so long as Allah wills it. Did you mean immoratal literally or by some other means?

anyways, that's my understanding of it. Allahu alim (Allah knows best).

As for a scholar, you can ask one at www.islamqa.com

[NoName55]

Noname55
I am having the exact same problem with your post as I am with the posts and links offered by Ansar - Your post doesn't answer my specific questions. where in your post is the answer to my initial questions which were:

#1 the relationship between adam's spirit and his body and

To paraphrase Br. Estes: "the relationship between adam's spirit and his body was same as you and I have with ours. They (Adam and eve) were created to be human, not gods. So naturally, they are like you and me".

#2 whether Adam and Eve are immortals upon creation. (I am assuming that they were immortal in islamic theology?

This was answerd by the very title of my post. It seems some people just don't bother with reading entire replies and are just plain repetitive for some reason that escapes me at the moment

[Clear]

Ansar

If you will excuse me, I will bow out of this thread and seek answers elsewhere. It is simply too inefficient to read link after link and not find what I am asking for. If you think you are providing me answers, then I apologize for spending your time also. Thank you for all of your efforts.


On the positive side, I do want to point out that I was very impressed with some of the themes in the links commentary. I enjoy historical religious records and recognize the early Jewish and Christian literature in the Quranic references and even some superior descriptions of parts that have been left out of the modern versions of the Old Testament and Bibles.

For example, in the sections beginning with the one labeled You Gotta be Talkin' to me; the author refers to the controversy in heaven (prior to Adam's coming to earth) and the group of angels who are counselling against giving man his agency as part of the mortal experience. The Quran places the controversy into the a correct context as one group points out the tremendous suffering that would result if Allah proceeded with this plan Ii.e. it was ALWAYS known mankind would fall) and is the very controversy that was involved in the biblical references to the "war in heaven". The Quranic record refers to the angels who "stressed only one side of human character" but other versions point out that there were other spirits who supported the Lord God's initial plan despite the suffering it would entail. The Christian/Quranic harmony of this version is much improved over the versions of christianity that claim the fall of man was some sort of "Plan B" by a duped God caught unawares, but this version correctly points out that this (the fall and it's accompanying suffering) was the very plan from the beginning.

The Jewish versions also point out that once the plan is adopted and Adam is confirmed as the one to open the way for others to come to earth, he is to be honored for this role he will play and when the Lord God/Allah orders all to bow down to honor Adam for what he is about to do, the Quranic record correctly points out that Lucifer is unwilling to do so. The Jewish version elaborates with more detail such as Lucifer, in his pride points out that he should not have to bow to Adam, but Adam should have to bow down to him and justifies this with the claim that he was created before adam. Lucifer (Iblis) is angry for additional reasons but the controversy comes to a boil with such prideful refusals and as the sides of the controversy dig in their heels either for, or against Allah's plan.

the Open your Eyes section was interesting in that it correlates with ancient Judaism/Christianities theology where this life is NOT a punishment of any sort. This context of mortality from as principle of punishment is incorrect and does not reflect ancient christianity. The Quranic version is clearer on this specific point. This life is not a punishment but it in both theologies, part of an earthly existence which "serves a greater purpose" (in the author's words). This life is the means of accomplishing the testing and sieving and improvement of those spirits willing to progress among other reasons.

Also, the principle of Adam having been forgiven for his having eaten the fruit is a correct principle, though the author clumsily stumbles on the biblical narrative with referrences to the "tree of knowledge and immortality" or "becoming Gods by eating the fruit, etc, still he echoes correct Jewish/Christian versions of the fall when he describes God counselling Adam and Eve in a consiliatory and caring way rather than as "an angry, scolding diety".



I DID read your link carefully. The closest this link comes to hinting at answers to my two questions are the authors question:
"From what state did they depart? All that the text reveals is that they were no longer in a state of perfect conformity to God's will," - but this doesn't say if they were immortal or mortal before coming to earth, nor does it tell me about adam's spirits relation to his body.

I do appreciate your time but I do feel it is better that I look elsewhere for the answer to these questions. Again, thank you Ansar for trying.

Clear


[b]I had written the above post and as I returned to the forum to post it, found a few other posts.

So the Islamic consensis is that Adam, at the moment he was created in heaven, a mortal. That is to say, when God created Adam and Eve, and they were in heaven, they were going to die whether or not they ate of the fruit, whether or not they came to earth, etc.

They were created as Mortals....

Thank you for the answer. It has taken a long time to get to this point. As to the nature of Adam's spirit. I think I'll simply let that question stay as it is with the comments posted so far.

Thank you to all who were trying to help.

Clear

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Clear,

It seems your understanding of the narrative regarding Adam and Eve is heavily influenced by the Biblical descriptions, which are quite different in many key ways from the Islamic understanding. You will find some of these points highlighted in this article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/188288-post1.html

Humanity was intended from the start to be on earth; the period in heaven was only a 'pre-test', if you will. In other words, our mortality has nothing to do with Adam's eating from the tree as you will read in the above link.

As for the OT, since it is not the scripture of Muslims, Muslims do not adhere to any specific version and usage of the OT amongst Muslims is mostly limited to comparative scriptural studies.

Peace.

Hi Clear,

I'm sorry to hear you found the above post unhelpful. I specifically mentioned why exactly I was referencing the above link and what information you would find in it. For your convenience, I even gave you the main point in the 2 sentences after pasting the link, so you would know what conclusions I was referring to from the article, and the main point on why Islamic theology of Adam's trial in heaven differs fundamentally from Biblical theology. I also explicitly stated that our mortality is NOT connected in any way with Adam's 'slip' in paradise which God knew about already. This is a direct answer to your question about whether humans were created immortal and became mortal after the incident with the tree and the answer is explictly NO. I also gave a direct answer to your question about the OT, and I'm not sure if you missed that answer as well.

As for your question about the relationship between Adam's body and spirit, you're right that I did not answer that with my link, but I never claimed that it did in the first place. Look back to where I explained exactly what the link was for. Coming to this question now, then the relationship between the body and the spirit (called the Rooh in Islam), is a topic which has been discussed in much detail in the Qur'an and Ahadith, while it is also topic which we have been informed transcends the limits of human comprehension and that there will forever remain many mysteries about it. You can read an introductory article on the subject of the Rooh here:
http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/purification/0058.htm

So I did answer 2 of the questions mentioned in your post (immortality question and the OT question) and the remaining question concerning the spirit I neither answered in my first post nor claimed to even discuss it. So rather than looking at my response to one set of questions that you asked and getting frustrating that it doesn't answer a totally different question, I think you need to look at what question was answered and the information that was given, and you will find the discussion more productive.

Of course if you choose to seek answers elsewhere, that is entirely up to you. I would recommend the articles on the website http://www.islamreligion.com and for some more specific issues http://www.islamtoday.com

Regards

[Clear]

Ansar

Thank you for the time and your extra information. I believe that if we gave ourselves enough time, that we could work out our problems in communication. Perhaps it is only me miscommunicating.

However, I don't really have enough time and patience to try to figure out where we are miscommunicating and think it would be better for me to continue on the historical forums or perhaps take Jazzy's advice for a source of information.

I really am very sorry and apologize for any part I might have played in miscommunications. I can't conceive of me not having some part fault in this.

I am honestly very, very grateful for your attempts to give me the information I want to gain. Thank you.

Clear

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^We are still here to help you with whatever you need. So do stay around :)