/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Ibn Al Qayyim on Taqleed



IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 01:21 PM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

A'oozubillah himinash shaytaanir rajeem
Bismillahir rahmaanir raheem

ya Allah i seek your forgiveness for any wrong, and i ask for your guidance.

may Allah soften our hearts and give us understanding.

Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyyah on Taqlid


In Ilam Al Mawqaqqiin (The Instruction of those who sign formal legal opinions) Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyyah says,

"To Those who reject Taqlid, it should be said that they have rejected Taqlid because they fear that the person who imitates (Muqallid) will fall into grave error should the person who imitating be wrong in his legal opinion. Moreover, they have obligated this person to seek out for himself and exert his own effort in determining the rulings himself and exert his own effort in determining the rulings himself in seeking the truth, yet it is without any doubt that the probability of his being correct when following a valid scholar is much greater than should he use his own reasoning skills by himself.

A useful analogy is that a person who wishes to purchase some commercial good and has no expertise in the object of his purchase. Should he ask a trustworthy expert who is sincere in his advice as to which type is the best to buy and then follow his advice, it is quite obvious that it is much more likely that by doing so he will choose the correct one and achieve his desired object as opposed to relying upon his own unqualified opinion. This is a fact agreed upon by all people of intellect everywhere!

All of the Imams have clearly declared the permissibility of taqlid.

Hafs Ibn Ghiyath said, "I heard Sufyan say, "If you see a man doing some action that scholars have differed about, and you deem it to be impermissible, dont prohibit him from doing it!""

Muhammad Ibn Al Hadan said, "It is acceptable for a scholar to imitate (taqlid) someone more learned than himself, but it is not permissible for him to imitate someone who is at his own level."

Imam Shafi has clearly declared the validity of taqlid when he said, "The expiation of killing a hyena in ihram is one camel, and I say that in accordance with Umar (Taqlidan li Umar)."

Also, in the matter concerning selling an animal with the condition that it is free of blemishes, he (Imam Shafi) said, "I permit it in accordance with Uthman (taqlidan li Uthman)."

Furthermore, in the case of inheritance where a grandfather and brother exist, he (Imam Shafi) said, "The Grandfather has a share with them. I say that because that is what Zayd said, and we accepted most of the inheritance rulings from Zayd."

He (Imam Shafi) also said in one of his books, " I say this in accordance with Ata (Taqlidan li Ata)." (Ata was a Tabiin not a Sahabi)

Consider Abu Hanifah, who says about a matter concerning wells,"We have nothing to do here but follow (taqlid) those who preceded us from the Successors of the Companions."

Malik, who never abandons the actions of the people of Madinah, has clearly states many times, "This is what the actions are in our city." And again, "This is what we fund the people of knowledge in our city doing." In many places, he makes the remark, "I did not see anyone among those who should be imitated (uqtudiya bihi) doing it." If we gathered all such remarks from his words, it would be quite extensive.

Imam Shafi stated, "The opinions of the Companions are better than our own opinions."

And we (Ibn Qayyim) says, ?We believe that the opinions of Al Shafi and the other Imams with him are better for us than our own opinions!?

In addition, Allah has made it the inherent nature of His servants that students imitate their teachers and scholars. Moreover, the benefits of humanity would not be achieved if this were not a fact. Indeed this is true of every knowledge and skill, and Allah has diversified the strength of intellects just as He has diversified the strength of bodies. Thus, it cannot be reasonable that He, in his Wisdom and Mercy, has obligated His entire creation to know the truth with a proof (dalil) and to be able to refute the one who disagrees with him in all the matters of the din, both the subtle and the obvious. Had that been the case, then everyone would have to be at the same level as our scholars. On the contrary, Allah has made one man a scholar, another a student, and this one a follower of the scholar, who considers him an Imam, just as one who follows his Imam in prayer.

In what verse has Allah prohibited ignorant people from following and imitating learned people, moving when they move and stopping when they stop? Given that Allah knew that there would always be concerns afflicting people, did HE oblige each person to be able to discern for himself what His rulings was for each matter based on the legal rulings of the Scared Law with all of its conditions and requisites? Indeed, is it even within the realm of possibility for everyone, let alone an obligation?! Consider the Companions themselves, they conquered many lands, and many people embraced Islam and would seek legal rulings from them. The Companions would simple give their legal opinions and nowhere do the Companions say to them, "Go seek knowledge of the truth of this fatwa with a sound proof (Dalil)." Never do we find this, not once! Indeed, is not taqlid a necessary part of existence and responsibility; and there for of the Sacred Law and the Divine Decree?

(Ilam Al Muqaqqiin), (Al Qahira: Maktabat al Kuliat al Aharia 2-205)
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Md Mashud
04-30-2007, 01:24 PM
Jazakallah, inshallah this sheds light to people - Be careful about those who try to mislead you into thinking Taqleed is wrong - For it is the most important tool to a layman to learn, understand and practice Islam!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 01:28 PM
for your further interest:


Aswad bin Yazid narrates, "Mu'aath came to us in Yemen as a teacher and commander. We questioned him regarding a man who had died leaving (as his heirs) a brother and sister. He decreed half the estate for the daughter and half for the sister. This was while the Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam was alive."
[Kitaabul Faraa-idh: Bukhari and Muslim Shareef]

It will be realised from this Hadith Shareef that Taqleed was in vogue during the time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallam. The questioner (in the Hadith) did not demand proof or basis for the decree. He accepted the ruling, relying on the integrity, piety and up-righteousness of Hazrat Mu,aath radiyallahu anhu. This is precisely Taqleed.



IMAAM ABU BAKR BIN ABI SHAYBAH (rahmatullahi alaih)


One of the benefactors of Hanafi Fiqh was a Buzrook by the name of Imaam Abu Bakr bin Abi Shaibah (rahmatullahi alaih). He passed away in 235 A.H. He had compiled a voluminous Hadith Kitaab, which spanned 16 volumes.

Nevertheless, there are two very important points regarding this Kitaab.

This Kitaab has a compilation of Fiq`hi Fataawa of more than 30 000 Sahaba (radhiAllaahu anhum) and Taabi`een (rahmatullahi alaihim). There does not appear any Qur`aanic proof from the Sahabi or Taabi`i providing the Fatwa. Nor is there any Hadith cited in support of the Fatwa given. There is also no record of objectors to these Fataawa.

This proves that during the era of the Sahabah and Taabi`een, Fataawa were given without and proof being cited from Qur`aan Shareef or Ahadith. The people practised upon these Fataawa without seeking any such proof. There is no evidence of anyone refuting these continuous practises. This is called Taqleed.





(some more good info., if you have interest in it)


The analysis of the differences Imaam Ibn Shaibah had with Hanafi Fiqh is as follows:

It is stated in ‘Inaaya’, which is the commentary of ‘Hidaya’, that the total number of Hanafi Fiqhi Masaa`il exceeds 1 260 000 (i.e. more than one million, two hundred and sixty thousand). Imaam Ibn Shaiba has differed upon only 125 Masaa`il. If we assume that his differences were exactly this (i.e.125), then the ratio between correctness and incorrectness of the Hanafi Masaa`il, would be one incorrect one to every 10 160 correct ones. Therefore, (according to one Hadith), there will be two rewards for every one of the 10 160 correct rulings and one reward for every one incorrect. It is very possible that there is no Muhaddith, who has attained this ratio of incorrect to correct rulings, ever.

When we study the differences of Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah, we note that there are atleast 60 Masaa`il, where there appears Ahadith on both sides. According to Imaam ibn abi Shaibah one Hadith is preferred and according to Imaam Saheb (rahmatullahi alaih) another Hadith is preferred. Imaam Saheb (rahmatullahi alaih) used to say: “If a Hadith is authenticated, then that is my Mazhab.” [Shaami]. Hence, we see that the Hadith he has preferred is an authentic one.

Imaam Sufyaan Thauri (rahmatullahi alaih) said that Imaam Abu Hanifah (rahmatullahi alaih) only used authentic Ahadith, where the narrators were completely reliable. He was also well aware of ‘Naasikh Mansookh’ (i.e. which Hadith was abrogated and which was abbrogatory). He was also very particular to ascertain which action was the one executed by Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) during his last stages. He also kept his views in agreement to the majority of the Ulama of his time. [Al Khairaatul Hasanaat, page 30].

In those Ahadith where there existed ‘contradictions’, Imaam Saheb used to take that Hadith which he and other Muhadditheen accepted as the most authentic one. It is also apparent that he accepted the ‘replacement’ Hadith over the abrogated one and he considered those actions of Nabi (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) which were done at the last part of his life. It is also apparent that Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah did not apply that much attention to authentic Ahadith, therefore the Muhadditheen have place his Kitaab in the third category. He also did not pay that much attention to ‘Naasikh Mansookh’.

Hence, we can safely conclude that in the 60 odd differences raised by Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah, the view of Imaam Saheb is more correct and preferred.

Besides this, there are approximately a dozen Ahadith, where Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah has presented a ‘Khabar Waahid’ (Hadith related by a single person), whereas Imaam Saheb has presented Qur`aanic text in support of his view. It is clear that proof from the Qur`aan Shareef is most preferred.


There are approximately 1 ½ dozen Masaa`il where, Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah uses ‘Khabar Waahid’ whereas Imaam Saheb uses ‘Khabar Mash -Hoor’ (‘Famous’ Hadith). It is apparent that ‘Khabar Mash-Hoor’ holds preference over ‘Khabar Waahid’.

There are approximately 1 ½ dozen Masaa`il, where Imaam Ibn Abi Shaibah refutes these Masaa`il, whereas these Masaa`il are not even proven to be directly from Imaam Saheb. These are not even recorded in the Hanafi Fiqh Kitaabs. Here Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah has also erred.

There are approximately ten Masaa`il where there is a difference of opinion regarding the interpretation of the Hadith. Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah interprets it in one way and Imaam Saheb in another. It is apparent that there is no consideration given to difference in interpretation of Ahadith, whereas difference of opinion in Fiqh is taken into cognisance.

[Jaami` Bayaanul Ilm, page 131, vol.2 / Zail Jawaahir, page 485, vol.2 / Al-Khairaatul Hisaan, page 61].

Imaam Tirmidhi (rahmatullahi alaih) said: “He (Imaam Saheb) was a great Aalim in interpreting the Ahadith.” [Tirmidhi, page 118, vol.1].

There is a consensus of opinion amongst the Ummat that Imaam Saheb was a Mujtahid.

Nevertheless, there remains a dispute in six or seven Masaa`il.

The condition of Allaah Ta`ala’s acceptance is such that, even after Imaam ibn Abi Shaiba has written his Kitaab, there are still millions of people who follow the Mazhab of Imaam Abu Hanifah (rahmatullahi alaih). There is not a single person, the world over who is a Muqallid of Imaam ibn Abi Shaibah.

Allaamah Abdul Qadir Qurashi, Allaamah Qaasim bin Qutlobugha and Allaamah Kawthari have written detailed refutations regarding this section in Imaam ibn Shaibah’s Kitaab.

It is recorded in the Ghair Muqallid periodical, “Al-I`tisaam”:

“Imaam A`zam (rahmatullahi alaih) has indeed, kept the conditions and needs of the civilisation of his era before him, and according to the Qur`aanic method of Mashwera, he formulated Fiqh according to sound Islamic principles. In reality, this is great achievement. It is impossible to refute this greatness and necessity (of his work).” [8 July 1960, page 5, column 1]




jazakAllahu khair bro musalmaan
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-30-2007, 01:34 PM
:sl:

The quote from Ibn Qayyim should also be taken with what he said in the following link.

http://www.islamicboard.com/679215-post17.html
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Md Mashud
04-30-2007, 01:41 PM
Al Madani, that thread is saying alot of nonsense.

No one said its obligatory, but its very stupid not to follow one if you dont have the ijtihad to do your own study. Tell me how you would come to know how to do your salat, whats wajib and all the islamic knowledge not listed in the Qur'an without following a madhab otherwise? Assuming you are not a very educated scholar in Islam?

That thread is just propagating and advertising (hate to label but) salafism/******sm, truly this is the way to get misguided, end up following the untruth. Many times even going into haram, or otherwise. Some beliefs can even be seen as khufr.

As a layman, should he believe that he has the intelligence to be able to deduce whats islamic and not MORE than the previous great scholars like Hanafi? What good is it for me to read 1-2 lines that most of you guys post to show evidence of, when you could not even comprehend the context as much as those great people?

Taqleed has heavily been practiced in the last 1400 years, openly and our prophet :saw: never said its wrong. What now is happening - its recent thing to - is that its WRONG to do this. I surely do not believe the common misconception, which has been going on for the recent 200 odd years, can ever even doubt my stance on this matter.
The divide, and the "secting" if you want it to be called is due to this alone. Don't blame "madhabs" for this.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 01:42 PM
Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


^^ do you think akhi that the article of ibn al-qayyim you have posted refutes taqleed? i believe it refutes that one shouldnt confine himself to one of the four madhaahib. that is an area which i have no knowledge.

however i really think taqleed is required for the laymen, and may Allah grant me understanding.

may Allah save us from being self appointed mujtahids, a'oodhubillah...
Reply

------
04-30-2007, 02:08 PM
:salamext:

Taqleed.....? :X
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-30-2007, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Al Madani, that thread is saying alot of nonsense.

No one said its obligatory, but its very stupid not to follow one if you dont have the ijtihad to do your own study. Tell me how you would come to know how to do your salat, whats wajib and all the islamic knowledge not listed in the Qur'an without following a madhab otherwise? Assuming you are not a very educated scholar in Islam?
:sl: brother,

You have misinterpretated what is being said.

What we are saying (as Ibn Qayyim said) is that the layman has nothing to do with a madhab, all that is enough for him is to simply ask a mufti that he trusts and make taqlid of his fatwa. We are not saying Taqlid in an of itself is a reprehensible thing.

That thread is just propagating and advertising (hate to label but) salafism/******sm, truly this is the way to get misguided, end up following the untruth. Many times even going into haram, or otherwise. Some beliefs can even be seen as khufr.
Contrary to popular belief, salafism/wa habbism is not La Madhabi. The problem with those that make Taqlid of a madhab (especially those that are layman) do not appreciate a difference of opinion and even if they do not intend it, they end up considering others to be false.

Also contrary to popular belief, salafism/wa habbism is not a madhab. It is simply an ascription to the way of the Salaf. You'll find most of those that you label as such following the Hanbali Madhab.
http://www.islamicboard.com/725790-post4026.html

Now lets keep sectarianism out of this thread Insha'Allaah.

As a layman, should he believe that he has the intelligence to be able to deduce whats islamic and not MORE than the previous great scholars like Hanafi? What good is it for me to read 1-2 lines that most of you guys post to show evidence of, when you could not even comprehend the context as much as those great people?
We were simply saying that one does not have to confine himself to one madhab and leave the others. The layman has nothing to do with madhabs in the first place. Our job is to simply ask a mufti we trust and follow him blindly. A layman does not even know how the rulings are derived in a madhab so how can he even asribe himself to it?!

Taqleed has heavily been practiced in the last 1400 years, openly and our prophet :saw: never said its wrong. What now is happening - its recent thing to - is that its WRONG to do this. I surely do not believe the common misconception, which has been going on for the recent 200 odd years, can ever even doubt my stance on this matter.
The divide, and the "secting" if you want it to be called is due to this alone. Don't blame "madhabs" for this.
You are confusing between Taqlid of the Messenger and the Salaf and a school of thought.

The harms that blind following of a madhab have brought are clear in history. For example you'll find in the Shafiie books of old that they disallow marriage to hanafi's but they allow marriage to the people of the book! When the layman crossed the boundaries of Taqlid, you'll find in history books that a Hanafi city used to be taken over by a Shafiee city and they used to humilate the lattar etc. This kind of ignorance still exists today, where people will even call you an apostate for simply praying a bit differently than them! People have gone to extremes and have stated statements such as "Any hadith or verse in contradiction to our Imam is rejected" etc etc etc. This is from the harms of simplying ascribing yourself to one person and taking his words as the only source of rulings.

We are NOT saying madhabs are bad or wrong. They are definetly good and the works of the Imams and those that followed them is definetly crucial to the religion. It is when one layman ascibes himself to one person (of the 4 imams) yet not knowing what their methadology was.

This is exactly what Ibn Qayyim was saying:
As for the one who is unable to do any of thatbut merely says, 'I am a Shaafi'ee...or 'I am Hanbalee...etc'., then he does not become that just by saying so, just as would be the case if he said 'I am religious scholar...' or 'I am a scholar of grammar...' then does he become that just by saying so. This is futher clarified by the fact that the one who says 'I am shaafi'ee... or a Maalikee...or a Hanafee...' claiming that he follows that Imaam and his way, would only be truthful if he were to follow his way in acquing knolwedge, understanding and extraction of proof. As for this one, with his ignorance and being far from the manners of the Imaam and his knolwedge and way, how can it be correct for him to ascribe himself to him except with mere claims and empty words having no meaning?! How can the common person have a madhhab? Even if it could be imagined it would still not be obligatory upon him or anyone else to ever have to follow the madhhab of a certain man from the ummah, to the extent that he accepts all his saying and rejects everyone else's sayings.

This is a filthy innovation introuduced tinto the ummah.

No scholar of Islaam has ever said this and they are higher in station and better knowing about Allah than to order the people about this. Even futher from the truth is the saying of those who say that he must stick to the madhhab of a single scholar and futher still from the truth is the one who says, he must follow one of the four madhhabs! O Allah, how strange!

[...]

Rather, he should seek from whom he wishes from the followers of the four madhhabs and others besides them. It is not obligatory upon him or upon the one who delievers verdicts (muftee) to limit himself to one of the four Imaams. Upon this is the consensus of the ummah, just as it is not obligatory upon the scholar to restrict himself to the hadeeths reported by the people of his land or any land in particlular, rather, if any hadeeth is authentic it is obligatory to act upon it, (*) whether it is reported of the people of the Hijaaz, 'Iraaq, Shaam, Egypt or Yemen."
Tell me what was the madhab of the four Imams. All Four Imams followed the Madhab of the Prophet, the difference lies in the way they developed their understanding of it.

Tell me according the hanbali madhab for example, who do they say is a Hanbali? i.e. who according to them qualifies as a 'Hanbali'? I assure you they don't say that a layman qualifies as a 'Hanbali'.

And from the above article:
Thus, it cannot be reasonable that He, in his Wisdom and Mercy, has obligated His entire creation to know the truth with a proof (dalil) and to be able to refute the one who disagrees with him in all the matters of the din, both the subtle and the obvious. Had that been the case, then everyone would have to be at the same level as our scholars. On the contrary, Allah has made one man a scholar, another a student, and this one a follower of the scholar, who considers him an Imam, just as one who follows his Imam in prayer.

[...]
The Companions would simple give their legal opinions and nowhere do the Companions say to them, "Go seek knowledge of the truth of this fatwa with a sound proof (Dalil)." Never do we find this, not once! Indeed, is not taqlid a necessary part of existence and responsibility; and there for of the Sacred Law and the Divine Decree?
This is EXACTLY what we are saying. The layman has NOTHING to do with any of the evidences, therefore having nothing to do with a madhab. Notice that the article does not say Taqlid of a Madhab, but of "learned people" and therefore the learned person can be of any Madhab and that is not of concern to the layman. It is enough for him to ask those of knowledge and make Taqlid of the fatwa he receives. This is the clarification that I was trying to make because someone can read that and assume that taqlid of a madhab is acceptable when Ibn Qayyim has clearly censured that elsewhere.

I don't want to go through a whole discussion again, so I'll leave it at this and you can refer to the other thread I linked to in my previous post. Allaahu Alam.

:w:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:

Taqleed.....? :X
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

my understanding of taqleed is to take our islaam from qualified and well versed scholars without asking for much proof but trusting in their knowledge. Such as taking from the qualified mujatihds of the madhaahib.

that is my little understanding, and may Allah make the siratul mustaqeem as clear as light to me and the ummah

Ameen
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-30-2007, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

my understanding of taqleed is to take our islaam from qualified and well versed scholars without asking for much proof but trusting in their knowledge. Such as taking from the qualified mujatihds of the madhaahib.

that is my little understanding, and may Allah make the siratul mustaqeem as clear as light to me and the ummah

Ameen
:salamext:

When you say it is required, you mean wajib/fardh? And when you say taqleed, you mean blind following? As in you follow one madhhab, and take your fataawa from that madhhab only and no other madhhab?

So what about if you know your madhhab has the weaker opinion? And you know there are ahadith that contradict that opinion, and all the other madhhabs have a consensus on another opinion? Would you still follow the opinion of your madhhab?

Sorry about all the questions.
Reply

------
04-30-2007, 05:09 PM
:salamext:

So Taqleed as in following Imaam Hanafi, Imaam Malik, etc?

Sorry akhee... :X
Reply

- Qatada -
04-30-2007, 05:10 PM
:salamext:


I think taqleed just means blind following sis. And Allaah knows best.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-30-2007, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I think taqleed just means blind following sis. And Allaah knows best.
:salamext:

I know, but I wanted to know what he thought it meant. Because i've found that people interpet it differently.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-30-2007, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm 'Abdullah
:salamext:

I know, but I wanted to know what he thought it meant. Because i've found that people interpet it differently.

:wasalamex


I was referring to sis Mujahida, sorry.


:salamext:
Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm 'Abdullah
:salamext:

When you say it is required, you mean wajib/fardh? And when you say taqleed, you mean blind following? As in you follow one madhhab, and take your fataawa from that madhhab only and no other madhhab?

So what about if you know your madhhab has the weaker opinion? And you know there are ahadith that contradict that opinion, and all the other madhhabs have a consensus on another opinion? Would you still follow the opinion of your madhhab?

Sorry about all the questions.
I believe insha'allah I can answer this question since I suppose I am in a similar boat

Yes usually when you do taqleed of a madhab, you usually do taqleed of one madhab and one madhab only. That is not to say you think the other madhahib are wrong.

Brother Al madani gave examples of people in the past who went to extremes. You'll rarely find this however, most people of madhab respect others of the otehr madhabs. It is very very rare for people to argue if a shafi has such and such an opinion and tries to say he is right and a hanafi is wrong. it is extremely rare, just like there are brothers out there who have said it is bidaa', and some have gone to extremes to say it is even shirk a'oudobhilla to follow a madhab. This is why most people mix the la madhabis and the salafis, because it is usually the "salafis" who say this, but again it is rare

Now If I follow Imam Abu Hanifah, that does not mean I think a shafi' is wrong. I believe we are both right, both of us are laymen, we are following an educated scholar, and we will get our reward regardless of whether it turns out to be right or wrong. The Imams will get either one reward or two rewards as they are the ones that did ijtihaad

You ask what if we are following the weaker opinion?
Well sister thats the whole issue, we believe we are not in a position to say if a hadith is weak or not. There are so many things to know about a hadith, detailed biographies of each person in the narration, where the hadith was delievered, where it was passed on. Its more than just one hadith being in Bukhari, and another being in Tirmidhi, if they are contradicting it does not mean the Bukhari hadith is the strong one, and the other is weak. It could be that the two took places at different times.

For example, raising of the hands before and after ruku, the hanafis and the malikis are aware of the hadith that says the prophet did raise his hands b4 and after ruku, its not that they didn't come accross the hadith, its just they have other hadith contradicting that, but they interpreted the hadith, that say you dont have to raise your hands, as being during the end stages of the prophets life, thus throughout his life the hanafis believe early he used to rasie his hands, at the end he didnt. By the way hanafis do permit the raising of hands, it is not haram according to the hanafi madhab

Also a hadith can never contradict an opinion of a madhab, it can only appear so to a laymen. A madhab probably used that hadith in perspective, and came to another ruling, or the imam followed another hadith which he believed was stronger

Finally when there is ijmaa of all the other scholars, there is more leeway to follow the other opinion then, although some still stick to one in order for their nafs to not get tampered with, as they fear they might start following their desires and keep looking at the other madhahib and follow what seems eitehr to them. They prefer to stick on one, respect the views of the others, and often not even look at the other madhabs, in case they dont trust their nafs from following an opinion that think may seem easier

I hope this answers your questions

I genuinely believe it is NOT a very significant issue. There are far greater issues out there. Often I see brotehrs arguing about whether to follow a madhab or not, where next door to them there are muslims who dont even pray, while these apparantly deviant muslims, who do or do not follow a madhab (depending on which side you are on) are regularly praying in the mosque

We need to put things into the correct perspective. Lets not forget, over these minor fiqhi issues, difference of opinions are allowed, they were allowed during the time of the sahabah, it is important to note though that we have the same 'aqeeda, and same kalimah of course

I hope I havent offended any1 by what I have said, any more questions please feel free to ask

Wsalam
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
04-30-2007, 05:46 PM
:salamext:

I'm not offended.:) Ok so do you believe it is obligatory to follow a madhhab? And do you think there is anything wrong with a layman going to a mufti for his fataawa, without following a madhhab? And are you aware that the 'ullemah of the madhhabs all said that we should take from them what is correct, and leave that which is incorrect? You say that a hadith can never contradict what the four imams said. But how can that be? Since they held different opinions on some issues. Can both be correct? The differing is allowed? Do you mean it is a mercy?

So don't you think it's better to go with the consensus of the scholars? For example, on the issue of the woman's prayer. Don't you think, since this is such a huge issue, a sister should go with the what the overwhelming majority of the 'ullema were upon in this regard?:?

:wasalamex
Reply

al-fateh
04-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Um Abdullah, sis is that you :)
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 06:10 PM
Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu


sis Umm Abdullah, first off i just want to say, i hardly have any knowledge and am very likely to make lots of mistakes. In the process of learning inshaAllah.



You asked me how i interpret taqleed, i say my taqleed is me taking from the scholars of a madhab because they have more knowledge then i could hope to achieve.
^ That is to put it simply, theres much more depth to why i say this, its because i understand how these madhabs run, how they have come about, what people they have produced. 1 reward for a wrong ijtihaad, 2 for a right one saheeh? im not a mujtahid, so i will be a muqallid, im ok with the 1 reward as long as it will still lead me to jannah.



sis we all blind follow certain scholars/books etc. When we take from sheikh nasirudeen albanee, sheikh ibn abdul wahhab, sheikh ibn baaz may Allah have mercy on them all, we trust Their works, Their opinions, Their interpretations.

Saheeh?


may Allah save us from being self appointed mujtahids,.... :(


Ok so do you believe it is obligatory to follow a madhhab?
laa adree, i think it helps, and i think people are very likely to be misguided without one.

And do you think there is anything wrong with a layman going to a mufti for his fataawa, without following a madhhab?
laa adree, i think if the laymen had a madhab, he would understand the fatawaa better as he understands his madhab. lets not forget that the sahabi's had differences of opinion, the tabieen had differences of opinion, the tabi tabi'een had differences of opinion. and now we people of little knowledge have difference of opinion. Who do we go to? which opinion do we take? the most saheeh? how do you know which one is most saheeh? Do you think you can deduce the mass evidence yourself?

And are you aware that the 'ullemah of the madhhabs all said that we should take from them what is correct, and leave that which is incorrect?
as brother musalmaan stated, this was directed to learned men, not us laymen.

You say that a hadith can never contradict what the four imams said. But how can that be?
if a hadith controdicts them then we will look into it carefully, fully deeply, understand all context, and go to a learned scholar and see whats happening. but a great scholar such as ibn abi shaybah didnt differ with imam abu hanifah and his fiqh other then on out of 1.2 million, 125 of them..... why do you doubt sister? it will be so rare to find a controdiction, and if you find masses and masses of controdictions, then audhubillah may Allah save me from suspicion but it seems that the person who is bringing out these controdictions knew better then imam abu hanifa and his students.....

Since they held different opinions on some issues. Can both be correct?
1 reward for the wrong one, two for the right.

The differing is allowed? Do you mean it is a mercy?
remember the prophet saws when he was asked by jibrail AS to go to battle, and then gave the order to the sahabi's to run to battle asap and pray Asr upon arrival, some feared they will miss asr so they prayed, some didnt in order to obey the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallam. the prophet smiled when he heard and rebuked none.

So don't you think it's better to go with the consensus of the scholars? For example, on the issue of the woman's prayer. Don't you think, since this is such a huge issue, a sister should go with the what the overwhelming majority of the 'ullema were upon in this regard?
we should stick to the majority, na'am.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:
wa alaikum ussalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

So Taqleed as in following Imaam Hanafi, Imaam Malik, etc?
Sorry akhee... :X
dont be sorry ukhtee
taqleed could even be for example, say a scholar says:

i present so and so hadith, the explenation is so and so, my reasoning is so and so.

we check his credentials, we choose if we trust him or not.


i choose to make taqleed of the hanafi madhab yes sister.


taqleed.. blind following?

subhanAllah, then we are all blind following, because eveyrone makes taqleed believe it or not. everyone... and as much as we'd like to believe, we have to make taqleed, because we cant go DIRECTLY to the prophet sallallahi alayhi wa sallaam.
Reply

Md Mashud
04-30-2007, 06:41 PM
Al Madani, you are going in circles to avoid my perspective.

A whole paragraph you written on "whos labelled hanbali or hanafi" etc could not be more pointless, because I said nothing about labeling, infact I do not feel labelling is good.

I am strictly talking about following the teachings of a school. So I don't know why this guy is making alot of refutations on this useless point.

I didn't miss the point, infact you did by this article.

Thats it is not obligatory upon him and this is what is correct and definite since there is nothing obligatory except what Allah, the Most High, and His Messenger have made obligatory.
No one said its obligatory. Alot of things are not obligatory but are extremely important, like doing deeds of our prophet saw is a huge benefit - which we are not forced to do. Just to emphasise how great of a deed is, Im pretty sure your familar with the hadith of those who can be rewarded equivilant to that of 100 martyrs for keeping to 1 sunnah during the ending time (basically after 1400).

We have to realise the huge benefit of madhabs similarly.

One of the arguements alot of people ask, is Why is it important to do Taqleed of only one Imam? What harm is there in following one Imam for one mas'alah, then another Imam for some other mas'alah, the way it was in the time of the Sahabah and the Tabi'een. They were not dependent on one individual in following the whole Mazhab.

They relate this to, saying we don't appreciate other opinions - this is totally false. Lets think of this logically, if we did not appreciate others opinions - would we be following a school of teaching to begin with? IF we was that arrogant wouldnt we just do self study? The logic fails, because theres huge misunderstanding.

Here is a good quote outlining this question:

In the time of the Sahabah, virtue and prosperity had the upper hand and generally there was no part in deen for fulfilling personal desires. That is why when someone inquired about a Mas’alah, he asked with a good intention and he would act upon it as well, regardless of whether he liked it or not.

In later times, this was not the case. Instead, people started having the urge to ask one mas'alah from a certain Alim and if the answer was against their desires, they would walk off to another Alim in search of ease. Still not content with this, they were stricken with a growing concern about how they could find a way out in every Mas’alah which would satisfy them. It is apparent that this can not be the motive for the search of truth.

Sometimes this can cause a lot of damage. For example, a person made wudhu then touched his wife. Somebody following the Mazhab of Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) said to him "Repeat your wudhu because touching your wife breaks the wud-hu." He replies, "I do Taqleed of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe) and wudhu does not break in his opinion of this situation." Then this person vomits. Somebody following the Mazhab of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe)says to him, 'Repeat your wudhu because vomit breaks the wudhu in the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe)." He replies, "I am following the Mazhab of Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) and in his view, wudhu does not break by vomiting." Now, this persons salaah is not valid in accordance with the Mazhab of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe) or Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) This is known as Talfeeq which is void and not permissible, by unanimous decision.

Following in this manner is in actual fact doing Taqleed of neither of the Imams. Instead it is fulfilling personal desires, which is forbidden in the Shari'ah. It leads a person astray and away from the path of Allah. Allah says in the Qur'aan, ‘And do not follow your personal desires, for they will lead you astray from the path of Allah.'

(Bayanul-Qur’aan)
This is why it is important to do Taqleed of only one Imaam. The Qur'aan has associated obedience with repentance, ‘And follow the path of he who turns towards me,'
(Bayanul-Qur’aan)
On this basis, any individual who had strong presumption about Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe), that he was repentant, correct and that his Ijtihad was in accordance with the Qur'aan and Ahadeeth, he chose to do his Taqleed. Anybody who had the same thought regarding Imam Sha-fi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe), Imam Malik (rahmatullahi alaihe) or about Imam Ahmad (rahmatullahi alaihe), he started doing his Taqleed. Now, this is incorrect to leave one's own Imam whenever a person feels and start following a different Mazhab, because without permission of the Shari'ah it becomes Talfeeq and fulfilment of personal desires. In result of which a person is lead astray.
Hence, Molana Mohammad Hussain Sahib has written in his compilation Ishaa'atus-Sunnah Vol 11 No.2 pg.53. After opposing Taqleed for a very long period of time and then becoming affected with bitter experience for not doing Taqleed, he writes, "We found out from 25 years of experience that those people who abstain from entire Mujtahids and Taqleed, they end up saying farewell to Islam. Some become Christians whilst others end up without any Mazhab at all. Rebellion and disobedience of the Shari 'ah is a petty result of this freedom."

(Sabeelur-Rashaad pg.12)
This is why those learned Ulama who have deep insight of the Qur'aan and countless treasures of the traditions of the Prophet and the Sahabah, in front of their eyes. Whose hearts are enriched with the fear of Allah and whose lives are enlightened with the lamp of the Sunnah of the Prophet , still choose to do Taqleed, despite having these qualities and virtues.
It would not be an exaggeration if it was said that these Ulama reached such a status only through following the Prophet and doing Taqleed of the pious servants of Deen and the great Mujtahideen

Now, look at that article:

As for the one who is unable to do any of thatbut merely says, 'I am a Shaafi'ee...or 'I am Hanbalee...etc'., then he does not become that just by saying so, just as would be the case if he said 'I am religious scholar...' or 'I am a scholar of grammar...' then does he become that just by saying so. This is futher clarified by the fact that the one who says 'I am shaafi'ee... or a Maalikee...or a Hanafee...' claiming that he follows that Imaam and his way, would only be truthful if he were to follow his way in acquing knolwedge, understanding and extraction of proof. As for this one, with his ignorance and being far from the manners of the Imaam and his knolwedge and way, how can it be correct for him to ascribe himself to him except with mere claims and empty words having no meaning?! How can the common person have a madhhab? Even if it could be imagined it would still not be obligatory upon him or anyone else to ever have to follow the madhhab of a certain amn from the ummah, to the extent that he accepts all his saying and rejects everyone else's sayings.

This is a filthy innovation introuduced tinto the ummah.

No scholar of Islaam has ever said this and they are higher in station and better knowing about Allah than to order the people about this. Even futher from the truth is the saying of those who say that he must stick to the madhhab of a single scholar and futher still from the truth is the one whp says, he must follow one of the four madhhabs! O Allah, how strange!
Just reading this, should show to you this person has a crude idea about madhabs, he is a clueless man he is yapping about stuff he doesnt know. Its very contradictive of his actions.

To further supplement, because everyone is so vague about this "private opinionization" of learning through madhab, read the following context regarding if a person still remain a Hanafi if he acts upon Imam Abu Yusuf’s rahmatullahi alaihe view or Imam Zufar's rahmatullahi alaihe. Also will he still remain a Hanafi if he acts upon the opinion of Imam Shafi'ee rahmatullahi alaihe or Imam Malik rahmatullahi alaihe at the time of need (for example the mas'alah of Mafqood).
:

For a Non Mujtahid to follow a Mujtahid, trusting him that he has the proof and evidence for it and he does not ask him for the evidence, is known as Taqleed.

The principle of Imam A' zam rahmatullahi alaihe which his students have described in de-tails and from which other masa'il are derived, whether these masa'il are directly from Imam Sahib rahmatullahi alaihe or not, a person who adopts them remains a 'Hanafi'. The views of Imam Sahibs students are in actual fact Imam Sahibs views, regardless of whether they are directly or indirectly from Imam Sahib. Therefore, acting upon them on special occasions does not expel an individual from Hanafiyah.

Sometimes, because of changes in occurrences and incidents, the ruling changed in a way that the scholars of the later era understood that if Imam Sahib rahmatullahi alaihe was still alive today, he would have made a certain ruling in a particular mas'alah. Therefore, they decided upon that ruling, regardless of whether that was the view of Imam Shafi'ee rahmatullahi alaihe or an opinion of any other Imam.

These type of changes, like the excellence of Hajj, nafl and Sadaqah etc., can be found in the time of Imam Sahib rahmatullahi alaihe himself. Hence, this does not cause any changes in Hanafiyah. Details can be found in Uqood Rasmul Mufti Ii Ibn Abideen.

Alot of people misunderstand quotes, and hadiths - which they use to show that it shows taqleed or madhabs as incorrect. This is because they failed to see context, the difference to those with Ijtihaad and those who are layman.

Here is a defintion of Ijtihaad for those who are unfamiliar:

When a mas'alah cannot be clearly found in the Qur'aan and Ahadeeth, the analogies and evidences have to be considered to find out its decree. This is known as Ijtihad and Qiyas, as can be understood from the afore mentioned. If this is agreed upon, it is called Ijma'a. That is why the Ulama of Usool have written that Qiyas does not establish the decree, but it just makes it evident.

A ruling which existed in the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth, but was not quite apparent for the common people to understand, a Mujtahid having done Qiyas on its analogies or by analysing evidently, implicitly or by way of necessity, would make it evident. Imam Bukhari rahmatullahi alaihe has compiled a specific chapter regarding this.
Alot of hadiths/quotes which people state are not in regarding with the layman, and get the complete wrong interpretation.


I hope I covered most things - correct any mistakes if found, inshallah it is helpful, Allah knows best.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 06:48 PM
Sometimes this can cause a lot of damage. For example, a person made wudhu then touched his wife. Somebody following the Mazhab of Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) said to him "Repeat your wudhu because touching your wife breaks the wud-hu." He replies, "I do Taqleed of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe) and wudhu does not break in his opinion of this situation." Then this person vomits. Somebody following the Mazhab of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe)says to him, 'Repeat your wudhu because vomit breaks the wudhu in the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe)." He replies, "I am following the Mazhab of Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) and in his view, wudhu does not break by vomiting." Now, this persons salaah is not valid in accordance with the Mazhab of Imam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullahi alaihe) or Imam Shafi'ee (rahmatullahi alaihe) This is known as Talfeeq which is void and not permissible, by unanimous decision.


Following in this manner is in actual fact doing Taqleed of neither of the Imams. Instead it is fulfilling personal desires, which is forbidden in the Shari'ah. It leads a person astray and away from the path of Allah. Allah says in the Qur'aan, ‘And do not follow your personal desires, for they will lead you astray from the path of Allah.'
Hence, Molana Mohammad Hussain Sahib has written in his compilation Ishaa'atus-Sunnah Vol 11 No.2 pg.53. After opposing Taqleed for a very long period of time and then becoming affected with bitter experience for not doing Taqleed, he writes, "We found out from 25 years of experience that those people who abstain from entire Mujtahids and Taqleed, they end up saying farewell to Islam. Some become Christians whilst others end up without any Mazhab at all. Rebellion and disobedience of the Shari 'ah is a petty result of this freedom."

subhanAllah!!! JAZAKALLAHU KHAIR!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 06:55 PM
lastly i would like to end by saying that even ibn abdul wahhab was a muqallid, as was ibn taymiyyah may Allah have mercy on them both.
they both followed schools of thought as if evident by ibn abdul wahhabs letter in which he stated his beliefs (i think he followed the shafi'i school , its in bro jalals lecture in his biography and refutation for ibn abdul wahhabs honor may Allah reward him).
Reply

Pk_#2
04-30-2007, 07:15 PM
AsalamuALaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

Was jus as confused as sis Mujahida at first, buh nah nice thread, you actually have a brain bro, nah where you jack this from?

Erm, havn't finished reading...but

format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Al Madani, you are going in circles to avoid my perspective.
lol Leave Al Mad alone :D

Peace.

bhai is bhai inayy, WNB....SLVE....OV.....ALLAH ...wah you on about man?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by |)431)M1
AsalamuALaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

Erm, havn't finished reading...but
wa alaikum ussalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

please read the whole thread sis, may Allah guide us.
Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umm 'Abdullah
:salamext:

I'm not offended.:) Ok so do you believe it is obligatory to follow a madhhab?
Salam

I know of some brothers, who are not even worthy of being classed students of knowledge, and yet they are doing ijtihaad themselves! subhanallah they think if a hadith is in bukhari, it is automtaically stronger. If they have one hadith in muslim, one in bukhari, they will take the bukhari one.

For people like that, and people like me, I believe yes we should follow a madhab and it is fard upon us, as we are not at the level of doing ijtihaad. Also I tend to follow the majority of our 'ulema, based on the hadith of the prophet, "Stick to the majority, and you shall never stray" And the vast vast majority of scholars say do taqleed. The African ulema, majority say taqleed, the middle eastern ones, and the indo-pakistan definitely are pro-taqleed.

Sister, to be honest, even scholars like Sheikh Bin Baaz and Uthamayn, they are hanbali, but they do not do complete taqleed, and openly say it should not be done, so ther followers also do not to complete taqleed, and their fiqh is mostly hanbali, but the muslims who listen to the likes of sheikh bin baaz and uthamayn, (May Allah Be Pleased with them both, and May Allah give jannah to them both also), they are inadverdantly doing taqleed of them. just because they back their fatwas up with quran and hadith means it is not taqleed? Ofg course not, the scholars who do taqleed of the 4 imaams themselves have their evidences and proofs

Don't forget there are different levels to taqleed. Every scholar does not automatically just start looking at the quran and sunnah and start coming to fatwas. all scholars start with the base from one of the 4 main madhabs. Now the big big scholars of today, who have reached the next step of taqleed, i think its called mujtahid mutluq, like the sheikh yusuf karadawis, sheikh bin baaz' etc of this ummah, they end up differing with the madhab they follow. But the difference is for example sheikh yusuf qaradawi, altho primarily a shafi', he gives fatwas that are not of the shafi' madhab on many occasions, that of music being just one. But the people of egypt dont suddenly follow the madhab of yusuf qaradawi, as yusuf qaradawi never says "Follow Quran and Sunnah over opinions of 4 imaams". The saudi shayookh on the other hand do say this (dont think i am saying they are wrong, i am in no position to condemn such great scholars), and so the saudi people, and of that school of thought, like that on this forum for example, tend to follow what they say, almost creating a seperate school of thought

And do you think there is anything wrong with a layman going to a mufti for his fataawa, without following a madhhab?
Not entirely wrong. I believe we should find a local allim, or 'allimah, and trust them, and follow what they say. If we trust their isnaad, and their teachings, then we shouldnt have the need to question them and ask them for a proof everytime we ask them for a fatwa

And sister, especially today, with so many contempory issues, we have to go to a local imam anyway, as there are many issues that were not around bk in the day of the 4 imaams

But me speaking for myself only, i dont think there is anything wrong placing your trust in a local mufti, as long as you trsut them, and know they have a valid isnaad of teachers going back to the prophet saw. It is much better than doing ijtihaad yourself, or looking at the opinions of all 4 imaams and choosing whatever is easiest.

But to be honest, I ask, is your local mufti likely to be more knowledgable than the likes of Imam Abu hanifah, Imam Shafi', Imam Malik etc?
If the great scholars of the past, the Imam Bukharis, the Imam Nawawi's, the Ibn kathirs, the Ibn Qayyims, the Ibn Taymiyyahs were ok with following a madhab (and most of them for most parts of their lives did do taqleed), then surely they are a far more safer and reliable option.

Dont forget the hanafi madhab is not just the madhab of imam abu hanifah. he used to discuss every one issue with 40 of his students. and these werent just 40 ordinary students. Iraq was known for their wealth of scholars in the science of fiqh, amd most of these scholars were either tabieen or taba-tabieen. They would sometimes spend 4 months on just one small issue. Is it likely that all of them at the end would have come to a wrong conclusion?

Also as mufti Muhammed ibn adam says here
It should be remembered that when we follow a particular Madhhab (School of thought), we are not following one person; rather we are following the extensive research carried out by thousands of scholars who devoted their life for this noble cause.
So although I diont think its wrong to place trust in a local scholar, I think there are far better options

And are you aware that the 'ullemah of the madhhabs all said that we should take from them what is correct, and leave that which is incorrect?
I am aware of this common statement made by brothers and sisters trying to prove taqleed wrong, but as previous brotehrs have mentioned, the imaams were speaking to their students, to educated scholars, not laymen like me and you

even then,how do people like me and you find out if a hadith is sahih? Because its in bukhari? Of course not, we usually listen to a view of a respected scholar, like sheikh bin baaz, and follow his opinion, because we trust him

Also, as a side note I'd like to mention, the students of the madhabs many times added hadith that came later if they together found it to be strong. So the students did add hadith, just as their teachers instructed, So I today, on many instances, do something as a follower of the hanafi madhab that Imam abu hanifah didn't do

You say that a hadith can never contradict what the four imams said. But how can that be? Since they held different opinions on some issues. Can both be correct? The differing is allowed? Do you mean it is a mercy?
Sorry i dont quite eman contradict. for example, somebody would come to the prophet and ask for a fatwa, the prophet would say do "A". An imam, lets say Imam abu hanifah, he would know of this hadith, but he wouldnt say to his followers do "A", he'd say do "B". This is because Imam Abu hanifah would do ijtihaad on the hadith and would put what the prophet said into context. For example, waht the prophet said to an old man about him kissing his wife during a fast is different to the ruling on a far younger man. He would use a certain hadith, put it into the context the prophet said it in, and would give a fatwa based on his understanding, so he's based it on the hadith, but has come to an apparent contradiction

And as explained earlier, sometimes two contradicting things can both be correct. For example, as I mentioned before, the raising of the hands b4 and after ruku'

Imam Abu hanifah finds hadith he believes to be strong that shows the prophet near the end times of his life NOT raising hands before and after ruku'. Imam malik also, but shafi' and ahmad say these hadith are weak. split opinion, there is no majority here, but both are right as they can both back their claims up

I say differing is allowed, this is the unanimous opinions of ALL scholars, as it was allowed during the time of the prophet amongst the sahabah on many many occasions

And yes,differing opinions are a mercy. ibn taymiyyah has written books on why this is so, and we should respect the different opinions

So don't you think it's better to go with the consensus of the scholars? For example, on the issue of the woman's prayer. Don't you think, since this is such a huge issue, a sister should go with the what the overwhelming majority of the 'ullema were upon in this regard?
I suppose majority is always best, but a lot of times there is no majority

Regarding womens prayer in the hanafi madhab, i have not studies this ruling, but i do know the hanafis do have their evidences, and it is not based simply on their own opinions, but yes following majority is probably the best, but I know too well this can often lead people to constantly look at all 4 madhabi positions,a nd eventually leads them to following the opinion they like best, so many people avoid this
Reply

------
04-30-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

taqleed.. blind following?

subhanAllah, then we are all blind following, because eveyrone makes taqleed believe it or not. everyone... and as much as we'd like to believe, we have to make taqleed, because we cant go DIRECTLY to the prophet sallallahi alayhi wa sallaam.
:salamext:

Subhaan Allaah....so true. Jazaak Allaah Khayr akhee.
Reply

Md Mashud
04-30-2007, 08:42 PM
You are right, that comment was farfetched and shouldnt have been put like that.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-30-2007, 08:43 PM
:sl:

Literal: Taqleed is a verbal noun of the root ‘Qa' 'la' 'da’ in the second form. The verb Qalada means to place, to gird or to adorn with a necklace. When used in conjunction with human beings, it refers to the wearing of a necklace, pendant or any other such similar ornament.

Technical: The acceptance of a statement of another without demanding proof or evidence on the belief that the statement is being made in accordance with fact and proof, is called Taqleed, or, for the purist, Taqleed-ush-shakhsi.

"And, ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know."

From Quran Majeed..

Aswad bin Yazid narrates, "Mu'aath came to us in Yemen as a teacher and commander. We questioned him regarding a man who had died leaving (as his heirs) a brother and sister. He decreed half the estate for the daughter and half for the sister. This was while the Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam was alive."

[Kitaabul Faraa-idh: Bukhari and Muslim Shareef]

It will be realised from this Hadith Shareef that Taqleed was in vogue during the time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallam. The questioner (in the Hadith) did not demand proof or basis for the decree. He accepted the ruling, relying on the integrity, piety and up-righteousness of Hazrat Mu,aath radiyallahu anhu. This is precisely Taqleed.

Secondly Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam did not criticise or reject the people of his age, who followed Hazrat Mu-aath radiyallahu anhu, nor has any rejection or difference on the issue been narrated by anyone else. The permissibility and validity of Taqleed are therefore evident, especially so because of it’s prevalence in the glorious time of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam.

This Hadith further furnishes proof for the concept of Taqleed-us-Shakhsi. Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam had appointed Hazrat Mu-aath radiyallahu anhu to provide religious instruction to the people of Yemen. It is, hence, evident and certain that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam granted the people of Yemen the right and permission to refer to Hazrat Mu-aath radiyallahu anhu in all affairs of Deen.

Huthail bin Shurgbeel said, ‘Abu Musa was questioned, then Ibn Mas’ud was questioned. Ibn Mas’ud was informed of Abu Musa’s statement. Ibn Mas’ud differed with it. Thereafter Abu Musa was informed (of his difference). He then said: "Do not ask me as long as this Aalim of deen is among you."

It will be understood that Abu Musa radiyallahu anhu in directing the people towards Ibn Mas’ud radiyallahu anhu by his command, "Do not ask me as long as this Aalim of Deen is among you," was mandatory regarding all matters of Deen. This, in fact, is Taqleed-us-Shaksi which means to refer every religious question to a particular Aalim because of some determining factor, and to act according to his verdict.

These Ahaadith indicate that ‘Taqleed-us-Shakhsi’ is not a new concept which can refuted. Its existence is from the very epoch of Khairul Qurun (the three eras adjacent to the age of Rasulullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam is an established fact).

The faculty of Taqleed is inherently existent in us. If we had refrained from the Taqleed of our parents and teachers then today we would have been deprived of even the basic and preliminary needs of humanity. By nature man is endowed with the ability to imitate and follow others. If this was not the case, we would not have been able to learn our home language. If we had refused to accept unquestioningly (without demanding proof) every command, beck and call of our teachers, then we would have been ignorant of even the alphabet of a language, let alone the study and writing of our books. Our whole life – every facet of it, eating, drinking, donning garments, walking, earning, etc., is connected with this very concept of Taqleed.

If the fundamentals and technical terminology of every branch of knowledge was not acquired on the basis of Taqleed, i.e. without questioning the authority of the masters, then the proficiency in such knowledge could not have been attained.

It is established by observation and experience that in this age most people are governed by selfishness, baneful motives, lust, insincerity, mischief, strife, anarchy, opposition to the consensus of the Ahdul-Haq, and subjection of the Deen to desire. This is manifest and self-evident. The Ahadith on fitan (strife) have forewarned us of the rise of these baneful traits in man. The Ulama are well aware of this. It is for this reason (baneful traits) that in the absence of Taqleed-us-Shakhsi, great harm, mischief, disruption and corruption will reign in the Deen. One of the destructive evils which will raise its head in the absence of Taqleed-us-Shakhsi is self- appointed Mujtahids. Some persons will consider themselves to be Mujtahids and embark on the process of Qiyas (Shar’i analogical reasoning) and they will consider themselves to be of equal or greater rank than the illustrious Mujtahideen of the early ages of Islam.

The previous Mujtahideen have reliably stated that some laws are Mu’all’al (based on certain causes). Citing this some modernists have claimed that the command of wudhu for salaah is mu’all’al, it being the consequence of the early Arabs being camel-herds and goatherds. Since their occupation of tending animals exposed them constantly to impurities, the command of wudhu was formulated. On this basis they claim that since people of the present time live in environments and occupations of greater hygienic conditions, wudhu is no longer necessary for salaah. They conclude thus, the permissibility of salaah without wudhu.

There are numerous Mujtahideen. It may therefore be argued that Taqleed of any Mujtahid should suffice. What is the reason for restricting Taqleed to the four Madhaa’hib?

It was realised from the exposition of the wujub of Taqleed that adoption of different verdicts leads to anarchy. It is therefore imperative to make Taqleed of a Madhab which has been so formulated and arranged in regard to principles (Usul) and details (Furu) that answers to all questions could be obtained either in specific form or in deducted form based on principles, thereby obviating the need to refer to an external source. This all-embracing quality by an act of Allah Ta’aala is found existing in only the four Madhaa'hib. It is therefore imperative to adopt one of the four Madhaa'hib’. This has been the accepted practice coming down the ages from the early times in an unbroken chain of transmission, from generation to generation.

It is not permissible to leave taqleed made upon one Imaam and follow another Imaam when one wishes. When this is done without permission from the Shariah it leads to talfeeq, it also causes one to follow one’s desires resulting in going far away from the truth and being led astray.

May I ask Allah Ta'ala forgiveness!

:w:
Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 08:55 PM
One additional thing I would like to say about taqleed, ie blind follwoing. When we go to a doctor, and he finds out why we are ill, and he says take such and such a medication, do we ever say to him, give me your proof for this? Or from what medical textbook have you used to arrive at this diagnosis? Of course not, we trust our doctors, similarly, we should trust our imaams who we know are God-fearing, and have learnt from shayookh with ijazah, and isnaads going all the way back to the prophet saw.

Also, before somebody also says the same thing, a brother once replied to a point I made like this and said "would you still trust your doctor if he told you to cut your arm off for no obvious reason"

well no I wouldnt, but that is going beyond the realms of taqleed, its like a scholar saying to me it is permissable for you to watch pornography, or have girlfriends. A reliable scholar would never say this, similarly a reliable doctor would never give you such a diagnosis
Reply

Pk_#2
04-30-2007, 08:58 PM
AsalamuAlaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

Can someone tell me what the following stand for:

(If possible/please)

-Buzrook?

- Hanafi Fiqhi Masaa`il?

-
‘Naasikh Mansookh’.< what it is, its importance :rollseyes

-‘Khabar Mash -Hoor’ ...hadith related by more than one person?

-Mashwera?

Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lastly i would like to end by saying that even ibn abdul wahhab was a muqallid, as was ibn taymiyyah may Allah have mercy on them both.
they both followed schools of thought as if evident by ibn abdul wahhabs letter in which he stated his beliefs (i think he followed the shafi'i school , its in bro jalals lecture in his biography and refutation for ibn abdul wahhabs honor may Allah reward him).
Salam bro, are you talking about Imam Abdul wahab, who people claim to start "Salafiism". I think he was hanbali, not shafi'i
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-30-2007, 09:12 PM
:sl:

Hanafi Fiqhi means....e.g. Abu Hanifa (Allah be pleased with him) said, "Fiqh is to know what is for and against oneself." Answers on questions in Islamic law (fiqh), beliefs, and guidance are given by qualified scholars and students of knowledge, according to the Hanafi school and Sunni scholarship.
Naasikh Mansookh means...The revelations from Allah as found in the Qur'an touch on a variety of subjects, among them beliefs, history, tales of the prophets, day of judgement, Paradise and Hell, and many others. Particularly important are the ahkam (legal rulings), because they prescribe the manner of legal relationships between people, as Allah wishes them to be observed.

While the basic message of Islam remains always the same, the legal rulings have varied throughout the ages, and many prophets before Muhammad brought particular codes of law (shari'a) for their respective communities.

The Arabic words 'nasikh' and 'mansukh' are both derived from the same root word 'nasakha' which carries meanings such as 'to abolish, to replace, to withdraw, to abrogate'.

The word nasikh (an active participle) means 'the abrogating', while mansukh (passive) means 'the abrogated'. In technical language these terms refer to certain parts of the Qur'anic revelation, which have been 'abrogated' by others. Naturally the abrogated passage is the one called 'mansukh' while the abrogating one is called 'nasikh'.
Mashwara means....e.g. The word shoura is used in its derivations: mashwara and mashawarat, which mean: consultation, deliberation, conference, counsel or advice.the Prophet(SAS) is ordered and commanded (in an imperative sense, by the Sovereign) to take counsel with, and consult, his Companions in all important matters and affairs, including those concerning the government. In other words, he should find out their opinions in all affairs before making any final decisions.

Likewise, the verse of Surah Shoura (42:38) means that in every matter which is of some significance, whether relating to government, any decree or ordinance, or any instruction or other matter, true Muslims always consult each other and discuss things among themselves before any final decision is made. Consultation, is an important pillar of the Islamic way of life, and to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also an express violation of the law prescribed by Allah (SWT).
I am not sure about another two of words...

Hope it will helped you, InshAllah!

:w:
Reply

Pk_#2
04-30-2007, 09:14 PM
Laa adree man laa adree!

JazakAllah that was quick, what dictionary did you use, i couldn't find much, brain.com is useful...hah?

AslamuAlaykum btw GO PRAY!
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-30-2007, 09:16 PM
:sl:

^:statisfie ..no problem! Some of my own words really..some of them not!

:w:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-30-2007, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mohsin
Salam bro, are you talking about Imam Abdul wahab, who people claim to start "Salafiism". I think he was hanbali, not shafi'i
I don't understand why discussions fall into sectarianism..however, 'salafis' (those who ascribed themselves to the way of the Salaf) existed before Imam AbdulWahab:
http://www.islamicboard.com/725790-post4026.html

Now can we stay off it? Jazakallah Khayr.
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-30-2007, 09:21 PM
:sl:

Brother Al Madani, if it keep carry on by sectarianism..my opinion is better to close this thread for peace..

May Allah Ta'ala forgiveness us for wrong ourselves!

:w:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 09:23 PM
please dont close the thread but delete the offtopic posts

please,


i need to understand this inshaAllah.

this is a healthy discussion in my honest opinion


assalamu alaikum
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-30-2007, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
please dont close the thread but delete the offtopic posts

please,


i need to understand this inshaAllah.

this is a healthy discussion in my honest opinion


assalamu alaikum
:sl:

Brother IbnAbdulHakim..forgive for my offence! I just worried that might lead to arguement..but I think your comment "delete offtopic posts" is good idea..but it up to Mods to decide..if it is worthy for learning to you..then it is fine with me! No problem..:)

My apologise!

:w:
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-30-2007, 09:35 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

I do not understand what the necessary is for one to ascribe themselves to one of the four schools of thought! They all said follow the strongest opinion, the opinion that agrees with Quran and Sunnah. Put it this way, if you want to learn how to pray pick up sahih Bukhari! It gives you almost the details of how to pray! They followed the way of the salaaf! Likewise we should do that and leave off blind following, sticking to one of them. Follow the way of the salaaf just like they did Insha Allah. Our Madhab is that of the Salaaf.

WaSalaamu Alaikum.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 09:36 PM
no offence taken sister, Alhamdulillah

sis DAED is right, we shud pray


assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Madani
I don't understand why discussions fall into sectarianism..however, 'salafis' (those who ascribed themselves to the way of the Salaf) existed before Imam AbdulWahab:
http://www.islamicboard.com/725790-post4026.html

Now can we stay off it? Jazakallah Khayr.
Bro really I am very very sorry, I totally did not mean it in that way, you have completely misunderstood it. i put "salafi" into quotation marks for a reason, as I think it is a foolish term, as is wa_haabi, really I dont like name calling, and I by no means consider "salafi" to be a seperate sect. i specifically said people who CLAIM to have started "salafisim". I will try and stay off it insha'allah
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
04-30-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

I do not understand what the necessary is for one to ascribe themselves to one of the four schools of thought!
wa alaikum ussalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

sister im assuming you've read this whole thread.
that very question is answered, it may lead to following of desires and beautiful examples are given, if you retrace im sure you will come across it inshaAllah. if not let me know.


They all said follow the strongest opinion, the opinion that agrees with Quran and Sunnah.
ok we need to really look into this. Were they talking to us? Us people who have no knowledge but the little books we've read, or were they talking to the great learned students of knowledge who had the bright potential and strived to be mujtahids/muhhaditheen etc etc.
really who were they addressing because im not sure ukhtee?

Put it this way, if you want to learn how to pray pick up sahih Bukhari! It gives you almost the details of how to pray!
so your saying sahih bukhari has everything including all the sunnahs of prayer, all the witrs, all the fard etc? does it give the context as to what was the situation etc etc?

They followed the way of the salaaf!
that is the intention, i had a 1 hour discussion with a brother on the internet.

he gave extremely good arguments and had said that ibn uthaymeen, ibn baaz and albanee rahmatullahi alayh ajma'een take the strongest of the opinions of the four madhaahib to formulate the most saheeh ( correct).

he quoted many times the hadith in which the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallam said the ones with pride look down on truth, and mentioned that kibr negates all chance to get into jannah.

then my question is simple, should we follow the madhab of the scholars uthaymeen, ibn baaz, albanee? because it is all scholaly views and verdicts right? their verdicts will of course conflict with other scholarly views and the question arises who is right?

Likewise we should do that and leave off blind following, sticking to one of them. Follow the way of the salaaf just like they did Insha Allah. Our Madhab is that of the Salaaf
subhanAllah... again you call it blind following? :( how is it blind following when we wish to take from scholars? i would understand if a man came up to me and said "from now on you must eat fish before you pray" and i said " OMG REALLY? ok!!" and i start eating fish before i pray, that is blind following.

but i wish to take the knowledge of the learned for my islaam, you call this blind following? such an ugly term :(
Reply

Mohsin
04-30-2007, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

I do not understand what the necessary is for one to ascribe themselves to one of the four schools of thought! They all said follow the strongest opinion, the opinion that agrees with Quran and Sunnah. Put it this way, if you want to learn how to pray pick up sahih Bukhari! It gives you almost the details of how to pray! They followed the way of the salaaf! Likewise we should do that and leave off blind following, sticking to one of them. Follow the way of the salaaf just like they did Insha Allah. Our Madhab is that of the Salaaf.

WaSalaamu Alaikum.
sister, please read the whole thread first, many of your questions hve been answered
Reply

Md Mashud
04-30-2007, 09:50 PM
if you want to learn how to pray pick up sahih Bukhari!
Lol, tell me your joking :)
Reply

siFilam
05-01-2007, 01:38 AM
In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:
and greetings

format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Lol, tell me your joking :)
Brother attitude like this won't help this discussion. We're one Ummah, we should do our best to discuss with proper manners as our Beloved Messenger (peace and blessings be upon Him) did. You are only exacerbating the tension.

wasalam
-SI-
Reply

siFilam
05-01-2007, 01:52 AM
In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:
and greetings

I've been following this thread all day. I've given this some serious thoughts, read couple of articles and answers from fatwa sites regarding Taqleed. I think it’s important that as born Muslims we should question our practice. I don’t mean questioning what’s obligatory or the unambiguous commands of Allah, The Most Exalted, and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him). I’m referring to the practices which we were raised with. (For example, I was raised as a Hanifie. So obviously Taqleed was accepted and practiced in my family.) With this in mind I seriously considered the necessity of Taqleed.

From what I’ve read so far, I think there are wisdoms behind Taqleed. Especially considering the present state of the Muslim Ummah.
Sister Al-Mu'minah stated that

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
Put it this way, if you want to learn how to pray pick up sahih Bukhari! It gives you almost the details of how to pray! They followed the way of the salaaf!
WaSalaamu Alaikum.
We’re very blessed since we have access to books such as Sahih Al-Bukhari and the English translations of such books.
But there are many in the Muslim countries that don’t have these luxuries.
What about them? How can we expect them to derive the rulings necessary to practice Islam properly? What about the Muslims with access to knowledge and books yet lack the basic knowledge of Islam. To demonstrate the severity of the problem: there are Arabs who don’t know how to properly recite the Qur’an with Tajweed. Should it be left up to them to derive Islamic rulings? If we do than Islam will end up like the present day People of the Book.
Following a particular Madhab doesn’t exempt anyone from acquiring religious knowledge. rather it’s a guide to properly obey Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).
And the four Imams were the Salah, so how is this not following the way of the Salaf?

This is one of the best explanation I’ve read so far.

”The simplest and most tangible example of Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; is that of a child learning his basic alphabets at school. Every child learning his alphabets is unconsciously practising Taql&#238;d. A learner driver taking instructions from a driving instructor is practising Taql&#238;d. People going to a specialist doctor for medical treatment and following his instructions is another glaring example of Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226;. A lay person soliciting a legal opinion from an advocate or following the advice of a tax consultant is another common case of Taql&#238;d. A client at an engineering firm, asking for the engineer?s advice on complex engineering calculations is yet another instance of Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; in action. The millions of ?facts? in the myriad of sciences such as astronomy, archaeology, etc. are all distinct examples of Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; Who ever questions the ?fact? or asks for proof that the sun is really 93 million miles away from the earth! It is taken for granted that this is the findings of the ?experts? in these fields and everyone simply accepts it as such. School teachers teach these to their pupils as ?gospel truth? and children learn and memorise these ?facts? with the hope of succeeding in their exams. There are countless such examples of Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; in everyday existence. It is quite clear from the above, that Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; is a natural way of life, and is not specific to Islam or Islamic Fiqh alone. Taqlid is the easy option for ordinary people In the context of Islamic Fiqh or Law, Taql&#238;d or Ittib&#226; simply refers to accepting and following the verdicts of expert scholars of Islamic Fiqh in their exposition and interpretation of Islamic Law, without demanding from them an in-depth explanation of the intricate processes required in arriving at such a verdict, called Ijtihad. It simply means that ordinary folk do not have to do Ijtih&#226;d, i.e. the intricate and complicated procedures involved in deriving Islamic rulings that scholars exercise when issuing a Fatw&#226; (legal verdict).”
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...82ee977a64e94d

and more for those interested:
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...c88eace51529d0

If I offended anyone, please forgive me.
Sister Al-Mu'minah, forgive me. I know picked your quote out of all the other posts. No hard feelings, for the sake of Allah.
May Allah forgive all of us, guide us, and keep us steadfast on the straight path. Ameen.

Wasalam
-SI-
Reply

------
05-01-2007, 07:39 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
how is it blind following when we wish to take from scholars?
:salamext:

U know brother IbnAbdulHakim has got a valid point...Coz we cant interpret things ourselves, so we need to have the opinion of a learned scholar....How is that Taqleed :?
Reply

skhalid
05-01-2007, 07:41 AM
reallly?!..oh okay
Reply

skhalid
05-01-2007, 07:42 AM
hmmm...interesting...dats all I gota say!!!
Reply

Musalmaan
05-01-2007, 08:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by |)431)M1
Can someone tell me what the following stand for:
-Buzrook?


-
pious saint (i think what they meant there)

format_quote Originally Posted by |)431)M1
Hanafi Fiqhi Masaa`il?

-
rulings.
Reply

Musalmaan
05-01-2007, 08:48 AM
:salamext:
masha'Allah that was really good discussion, just to share my few words into this thread, that muqallid of a madhab do NOT consider other madhab followers to be wrong/misquided, else why would they have said to follow one of the four madhab arba?
all the madhab arba ARE adherent of Quran and Sunnah.. Its just that Aima mujhtahideen have deduced a masalah differently. (Imam Ibn Taymiyah rahimahulla has also mentioned few points as to why exist among the madhab difference of opinions according to his understanding/knowledge)

The wellknown point is:

I consider my Madhab to be correct with a slight possibility(Ihtamaal) that it may be not. And consider other madhahib to be wrong with slight possibility of being correct

In any case (right or wrong), the muqallid and mujtahid are rewarded by the mercy of Allah SWT (hadith in bukhari). This is the virtue of being obedient to Allah and His Rasul.

the madhab is not actually school of thought but schoool of laws.
one thing more that i shld mention here that there is not a SINGLE hadith book present where the complete salaah is mentioned, not a single hadith book, so there is NO point on searching all the rulings from bukhari. moreover, what ayah of Quran and hadith say to search the prophet saying in Bukhari first, then muslim and so on? this itself is using own logics (Qiyas) which is also conceptually and logically wrong and not being used by anyone of the mujtahid in the past.

The rest of the questions i beleive has been covered by brother mohsin, ibn AbdulHakim and others, may Allah reward for you all to defend truth and keep us steadfast onto the right path. ameen.


:w:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-01-2007, 08:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:

....How is that Taqleed :?
Assalamu Alaikum

no sister it IS taqleed, but it is NOT blind following.

subhanAllah wallahil a'zeem it shows ignorance when people call something which great great scholars done "blind following."

may Allah guide us all, at least think twice before using such terms.


i hope i didnt offend anyone, i just want to clarify inshaAllah
Reply

Rebelution
05-01-2007, 09:16 AM
:sl:

Just want to clarify if no one hasn't, doing taqleed does not necessarily mean one must has to adhere to a madhhab. It simply means that a layman should ask any qualified Mufti no matter what his madhhab is, until he himself seeks knowledge and becomes independant inshAllaah.

Imaam Shawkaani -rah- on the other hand disagreed and what it seemed like he said that everyone should become learned enough to derive their own rulings and not rely upon anyone.
Reply

Rebelution
05-01-2007, 09:53 AM
Mulla 'Ali al-Qari al-Hanafi says, as reported by al-Ma’sumi:
“It is not obligatory upon anyone from the Ummah to be a Hanafi, or a Maliki, or a Shafi’i, or a Hanbali; rather, it is obligatory upon everyone, if he is not a scholar, to ask someone from Ahlul Dhikr (people of knowledge), and the four Imaams are from amongst the Ahlul Dhikr."

Ibn Qawan ash-Shafi’i says in his al-Tahqiqat,
“The truth is that it is not incumbent to adhere to a Madhhab; Rather, a person should ask whoever he likes, but without seeking allowances (tatabbu’ al-rukhas).”

Ibn Muflih al-Hanbali, in al-Furu’, mentions the difference of opinion amongst the Malikis and Shafi’is, saying: “It (following a madhhab) not being obligatory is the most famous opinion”.
al-Mardawi comments: “And this is the correct opinion”.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-01-2007, 10:00 AM
assalamu alaikum akhee/ukhtee reb

can you please link me to a biography of these scholars. i wish to read up on who comments inshaAllah
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 02:39 PM
:salamext:

This thread may be closed soon, as I see it is leading to a lot of argumentation.

I see people keep using the 'following desires' excuse. I don't follow any madhhab, and I do not follow my desires. I tend to go with the stricter opinion, to be on the safe side. For example, the issue of niqaab. I haven't made up my mind on that issue, but I wear it anyway to be on the safe side. I've never made ijtihaad, and I don't plan on doing so either. Ijtihaad is for the 'ullema, not for someone who has as little knowledge as me.

Now, I feel offended at how people make out like if you're not a muqallid, you are mujtahid. That's extremism, in my eyes. And you cannot assume taht every non-muqallid will follow his desires. It's possible that you can have taqwah, no?

Ibn al-Qayyim says: “This is definitely the correct opinion, since there is nothing obligatory, except that which Allah and His Messenger made obligatory. And never did Allah or His Messenger oblige anyone to adhere to the Madhab of one of the Imams, to make Taqleed of one and leave the others.”

Ibn Taymiyah says: “If a Muslim faces an event without precedence, then he should ask the one he believes issues verdicts in accordance with Allah’s and His Messenger’s  Shari’ah, irrespective of which Madhab he is from. It is not incumbent upon any Muslim to make Taqleed of a particular person amongst the scholars in everything he says” - to his words - “For one to follow someone’s Madhab due to his incapacity to find out the Shar’i ruling from other than him, then that is only permissible, and not something obligatory upon everyone if it becomes possible for one to obtain the knowledge of Shar’ through different means. In fact, everyone is obliged to fear Allah to his utmost, and seek the knowledge of what Allah and His Messenger  have ordained, so that he may perform the ordered and abstain from the prohibited.”

This is the opinion that I follow.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 02:50 PM
:salamext:

Is it obligatory to follow a particular madhhab?

Question:
Is it mandatory for a muslim to follow a specific madhab (maliki, hanafi, hanbali,etc)?
If it is so, what madhab is the best? Is it true that Abou Hanifa's madhab is the most followed in the muslim world?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

It is not obligatory for a Muslim to follow any particular madhhab among these four. People vary in their level of understanding and ability to derive rulings from the evidence. There are some for whom it is permissible to follow (taqleed), and indeed it may be obligatory in their case. There are others who can only follow the shar’i evidence. In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah this question was answered in a detailed manner, which is worth quoting here in full.

Question:

What is the ruling on following one of the four madhhabs in all cases and situations?

The Committee replied:

Praise be to Allaah, and blessings and peace be upon His Messenger and his family and companions.

Firstly: the four madhhabs are named after the four imams – Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Maalik, Imam al-Shaafa’i and Imam Ahmad.

Secondly: These imams learned fiqh (jurisprudence) from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they are mujtahideen in this regard. The mujtahid either gets it right, in which case he will have two rewards, the reward for his ijtihaad and the reward for getting it right, or he will get it wrong, in which case he will be rewarded for his ijtihaad and will be forgiven for his mistake.

Thirdly: the one who is able to derive rulings from the Qur’aan and Sunnah should take from them like those who came before him; it is not right for him to follow blindly (taqleed) when he is believes that the truth lies elsewhere. Rather he should follow that which he believes is the truth. It is permissible for him to follow in matters in which he is unable to come to a conclusion based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah and he needs guidelines concerning a particular issue.

Fourthly: Whoever does not have the ability to derive rulings himself is permitted to follow one whom he feels comfortable following. If he is not comfortable following him then he should ask until he finds someone with whom he is comfortable.

Fifthly: From the above it is clear that we should not follow their opinions in all situations and at all times, because they may make mistakes, but we may follow their views that are sound and are based on the evidence.

Fataawa al-Lajnah, 5/28

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah, no. 3323:

Whoever is qualified to derive rulings from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and has strong knowledge in that regard, even if that is with the help of the legacy of fiqh that we have inherited from earlier scholars of Islam, has the right to do that, so he can act upon it himself and explain it in disputes and issue fatwas to those who consult him. Whoever is not qualified to do that has to ask trustworthy people who so that he may learn the rulings from their books and act upon that, without limiting his asking or his reading to one of the scholars of the four madhhabs. Rather people refer to the four imams because they are so well known and their books are well written and widely available.

Whoever says that it is obligatory for the learned people to follow the scholars blindly in all cases is making a mistake and being inflexible, and is thinking that these learned people are inadequate, and he is restricting something that is broad in scope.

Whoever says that we should limit following to the four madhhabs is also mistaken, because he is restricting something that is broad in scope with no evidence for doing so. With regard to the common (i.e., uneducated) man there is no difference between the four imams and others such as al-Layth ibn Sa’d, al-Awzaa’i and other fuqaha’.

Fataawa al-Lajnah, 5/41

It says in Fatwa no. 1591:

None of them called people to follow his madhhab, or was partisan in following it, or obliged anyone else to act in accordance with it or with a specific madhhab. Rather they used to call people to follow the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they would comment on the texts of Islam, and explain its basic principles and discuss minor issues according to general guidelines, and issue fatwas concerning what people asked about, without obliging any of their students or anyone else to follow their views. Rather they criticized those who did that and said that their opinions should be cast aside if they went against a saheeh hadeeth. One of them said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” May Allaah have mercy on them all.

It is not obligatory for anyone to follow a particular madhhab, rather we should strive to learn the truth if possible, or to seek the help of Allaah in doing so, then to rely on the legacy that the earlier Muslim scholars left behind for those who came after them, thus making it easier for them to understand and apply the texts. Whoever cannot derive rulings from the texts etc for some reason that prevents him from doing so should ask trustworthy scholars for whatever rulings of sharee’ah he needs, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“So ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures — the Tawraat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:7]


So he has to strive to ask one whom he trusts among those who are well known for their knowledge, virtue, piety and righteousness.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/56

The madhhab of Abu Haneefah (may Allaah have mercy on him) is the most widespread madhhab among the Muslims, and perhaps one of the reasons for that is that the Ottoman caliphs followed this madhhab and they ruled the Muslim lands for more than six centuries. That does not mean that the madhhab of Abu Haneefah is the most sound madhhab or that every ijtihaad in it is correct, rather like other madhhabs it contains some things that are correct and some that are incorrect. What the believer must do is to follow the truth and what is correct, regardless of who says it.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 02:55 PM
Imitation (taqleed), following the evidence (daleel) – and was Ibn Hazm a Hanbali?


Question:
How can a person not make taqleed and still at the same time follow the teachings of one of the imams hanafi, maaliki, shaafi and ahmad bin hanbal(may allah(s.w) have mercy on them all). i am asking this because after reading a summary of the biography of bin baaz( may allah(s.w) have mercy on him)that he followed the school of ahmad bin hanbal(may allah(s.w) have mercy on him) but didnt do taqleed. please explain this to me because im confused .

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The followers of the madhhabs are not all the same. Some of them are mujtahids within their madhhab, and some are followers (muqallids) who do not go against their madhhabs in any regard.

Al-Buwayti, al-Muzani, al-Nawawi and Ibn Hajr were followers of Imam al-Shaafa’i, but they were also mujtahids in their own right and differed with their imam when they had evidence. Similarly Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr was a Maaliki but he differed with Maalik if the correct view was held by someone else. The same may be said of the Hanafi imams such as Abu Yoosuf and Muhammad al-Shaybaani, and the Hanbali imams such as Ibn Qudaamah, Ibn Muflih and others.

The fact that a student studied with a madhhab does not mean that he cannot go beyond it if he finds sound evidence elsewhere; the only one who stubbornly clings to a particular madhhab (regardless of the evidence) is one who lacking in religious commitment and intellect, or he is doing that because of partisan attachment to his madhhab.

The advice of the leading imams is that students should acquire knowledge from where they acquired it, and they should ignore the words of their imams if they go against the hadeeth of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Haneefah said: “This is my opinion, but if there comes someone whose opinion is better than mine, then accept that.” Maalik said: “I am only human, I may be right or I may be wrong, so measure my words by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.” Al-Shaafa’i said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh, then ignore my words. If you see well established evidence, then this is my view.” Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly, and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn as we have learned.” And he said, “Do not follow men blindly with regard to your religion, for they can never be safe from error.”

No one has the right to follow an imam blindly and never accept anything but his words. Rather what he must do is accept that which is in accordance with the truth, whether it is from his imam or anyone else.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:

No one has to blindly follow any particular man in all that he enjoins or forbids or recommends, apart from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Muslims should always refer their questions to the Muslim scholars, following this one sometimes and that one sometimes. If the follower decides to follow the view of an imam with regard to a particular matter which he thinks is better for his religious commitment or is more correct etc, that is permissible according to the majority of Muslim scholars, and neither Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i or Ahmad said that this was forbidden.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 23/382.

Shaykh Sulaymaan ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Rather what the believer must do, if the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have reached him and he understands them with regard to any matter, is to act in accordance with them, no matter who he may be disagreeing with. This is what our Lord and our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have enjoined upon us, and all the scholars are unanimously agreed on that, apart from the ignorant blind followers and the hard-hearted. Such people are not scholars.

Tayseer al-‘Azeez al-Hameed, p. 546

Based on this, there is nothing wrong with a Muslim being a follower of a certain madhhab, but if it becomes clear to him that the truth (concerning a given matter) is different from the view of his madhhab, then he must follow the truth.

With regard to Ibn Hazm, he was an imam and a mujtahid, and he regarded blind following as haraam. He was not a follower of any of the imams, neither Imam Ahmad nor any other imam. Rather he was the imam of ahl al-zaahir (the Zaahiris or literalists) during his own time and until now. Perhaps the view that he was a follower of Imam Ahmad (if this report is true) has to do with matters of aqeedah and Tawheed, even though he held different opinions and reckless views with regard to issues pertaining to the divine names and attributes.

See his biography in Siyar A’laam al-Nubala’, 18/184-212

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

Also see here.
Reply

------
05-01-2007, 02:58 PM
Whoever says that it is obligatory for the learned people to follow the scholars blindly in all cases is making a mistake and being inflexible,
:salamext:

Why u being difficult sister? Brother IbnAbdulHakim is merely saying that because we do not have enough knowledge to interpret stuff, we have to take other scholars opinion, rather than making our own up. Thats it. He didn't say it was obligatory.
Reply

Maimunah
05-01-2007, 02:58 PM
:sl:

Imaam Abu Haneefah
Shaykh Abdul Wahhaab ash-Saha'raanee, in refutation of taqleed, has mentioned the following statements of Abu Haneefah. He (Abu Haneefah) said,



"It is not permissible for anyone to pass verdicts based upon my words without knowing my evidences."

And when he used to issue verdicts he would say,



"This is the opinion of Nu'maan Ibn Thaabit and it is better for you than following your desires and if someone presents a better opinion, then take it as it will be considered to be appropriate." [Al-Yawaaqiyat wal-Jauhar (2/96)]

Imaam ash-Shawkaanee has mentioned,



"It was said to Abu Haneefah, 'What shall we do when your statement contradicts the sayings in the Book of Allaah.' He said, 'Leave my statement for the Book of Allaah.' Then he was asked, 'What if your statement contradicts the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam)?' He replied, 'Reject my statement for the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam).' Then he was asked, 'What if your statements contradict the statements of the Companions?' He replied, 'Abandon my statement for the statements of the Companions.'" [Al-Qawl al-Mufeed of Imaam ash-Shawkaanee]

'Allaamah ash-Shaamee mentions the following statement of Abu Haneefah,



"If a hadeeth is found to be authentic, then it is my madhhab." [Shaamee (1/50)]




Imaam Maalik

Shaykh Abdul Wahhaab ash-Saha'raanee mentions the statement of Imaam Maalik. He (Maalik) said,



"Everyone's statement can be rejected or taken except that of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam)." [al-Yawaaqiyat Wal-Jauhar (2/96)]

Imaam Maalik also said,



"I am a man, I may make mistakes sometimes and I may be correct sometimes, so weigh my statements with the Book and the Sunnah. If they are in accordance then take them and if they contradict it then leave them." [Al-Eeqaaz]




Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee

Baihaqee and Haakim said that Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee said,



"An authentic hadeeth is my madhhab."

In another narration Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee said,



"When you find my statement contradicting the hadeeth then act upon the hadeeth and throw my statement against the wall." [Al-Yawaaqiyat wal-Jauhar (2/96)]

Advice
Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee advised Muzanee (his student),



"O Ibraaheem do not do taqleed of me in everything I say, rather look into them whether it is from the religion."

And he said,



"No ones statement is evidence except the Messenger of Allaah's (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) even though the people may be great in number. Neither is analogical reasoning evidence or anything other than this (except the Book, Sunnah and the Ijmaa) and obey Allaah and His Messenger."





Imaam Ahmad

Imaam Ahmad said,



"There is no ones statement when it comes to obeying of Allaah and His Messenger." [Al-Yawaaqiyat wal-Jauhar (2/96)]

Whilst advising someone Imaam Ahmad said,



"Do not do taqleed of me, nor of Maalik, al-Awzaa'ee, an-Nakhaa'ee or anyone other than them, take from where they took, from the Book and the Sunnah." [Al-Yawaaqiyat wal-Jauhar (2/96)]

theclearpath.com

:w:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 03:01 PM
Question: Some scholars say that taqlîd of one of the four schools of thought is obligatory. I find their argument valid as they say it is not possible for a common man to make ijtihâd by himself. This makes the religion easy for the common man. I would be very grateful if you could shed more light on this subject.

Answered by Sheikh Salman al-Oadah

You have the right to follow a certain school of thought such as the Malikî, Shafi`î, Hanafî, Hanbalî, Zâhirî, or Awza`î school. But neither you nor anyone else may follow one school in an issue where it is clearly established that the evidence points to the contrary.

Allah created us to worship Him and follow His Messenger (peace be upon him). Allah says: “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger”

We, as servants, will be asked on the Day of Judgment “What was the answer you gave to the Messengers?” [Sûrah al-Qasas: 65].

We are commanded to follow the revelation sent to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Allah says: “Follow (O men) the revelation given unto you from your Lord.” [Sûrah al-A`râf : 3]

The founders of all the schools of law used to tell their students not follow them in this or that but to take from the same source they have taken from and to follow the evidence. Those prominent Imams all had famous sayings related from them in this regard.

Therefore, whoever came to know a true Sunnah with certainty is forbidden to disregard it in deference to the saying of the scholar whom he chooses to follow.

Ibn `Abd al-Barr related the consensus of the scholars on this point.

This is a clear matter. However, for a common person who cannot distinguish between texts and evidences. it is perfectly alright for him to copy a scholar whom he trusts, and fear Allah as much as possible.

Source
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:

Why u being difficult sister? Brother IbnAbdulHakim is merely saying that because we do not have enough knowledge to interpret stuff, we have to take other scholars opinion, rather than making our own up. Thats it. He didn't say it was obligatory.
:salamext:

Brother ibnAbdulHakim isn't the only one contributing to this thread.:) Look at the whole thread.
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
05-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Like I already posted once before:

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
:sl:

I copied this Chapter from the Book called "The Path to Guddance ny Imaam Ibn Al-Qayyim Al-Jawziyyah"


Chapter Eleven
Ibn Al-Qayyim on follwoing a School of though (Madhhab)


Ibn Al-Qayyaim said: "Does the common person have to follwo one of the well known madhhabs or not? There are two sayings regarding this:


Thats it is not obligatory upon him and this is what is correct and definite since there is nothing obligatory except what Allah, the Most High, and His Messenger have made obligatory. Neither Allah nor His Messenger have made obligatory to follow the school of thought (madhhab) of any person from the ummah and to follow him alone in the Religion. The best generations passed by without anyone doing this. Inded the common person cannot have a madhhab, even if he thinks that he does, since the common person has no madhhab at all. This is because the madhhab will be either for the one who is able to research to a certain level and understand evidence and also know about the other madhhabs or for the one who has read a book concerning the details of that madhhab and knows the ruling and saying of his Imaam.


As for the one who is unable to do any of thatbut merely says, 'I am a Shaafi'ee...or 'I am Hanbalee...etc'., then he does not become that just by saying so, just as would be the case if he said 'I am religious scholar...' or 'I am a scholar of grammar...' then does he become that just by saying so. This is futher clarified by the fact that the one who says 'I am shaafi'ee... or a Maalikee...or a Hanafee...' claiming that he follows that Imaam and his way, would only be truthful if he were to follow his way in acquing knolwedge, understanding and extraction of proof. As for this one, with his ignorance and being far from the manners of the Imaam and his knolwedge and way, how can it be correct for him to ascribe himself to him except with mere claims and empty words having no meaning?! How can the common person have a madhhab? Even if it could be imagined it would still not be obligatory upon him or anyone else to ever have to follow the madhhab of a certain amn from the ummah, to the extent that he accepts all his saying and rejects everyone else's sayings.

This is a filthy innovation introuduced tinto the ummah.

No scholar of Islaam has ever said this and they are higher in station and better knowing about Allah than to order the people about this. Even futher from the truth is the saying of those who say that he must stick to the madhhab of a single scholar and futher still from the truth is the one whp says, he must follow one of the four madhhabs! O Allah, how strange!


(Is it that) the madhhabs of the Campanions of Allah's Messneger (pbuh) have died out and those of the taabi'een and those who came after them and those of the rest of the scholars of Islaam and all have invalidated except for the madhhabs of four men only from amongest all the rest of the scholars and Imaams?!



Rather, that which Allah, the Most High, and His Messenger made obligatory upon the Companions, the taabi'een and those who came after them is the same as that which He made obligatory upon those after them util the Day of Resurrection. That which is obligatory does not vary or change, even though how it is achieved may vary or the amount which is obligatory may vary due to varying ability or inability, time, place and condition, but that also follows what Allah and His Messenger have obligated.

Those who say that it is correct for the common person to have a madhhab claim, 'Because he believes that the madhhab which he ascribes himself to is the truth, therefore, he must be sincere to his belief.' If this saying of theirs were true then it would mean that it is forbidden to seek a ruling from anyone other than the people of his own madhhab and likewise thats it is forbidden to take the madhhab of anyone equal or greater than than his own Imaam and would mean other things which all show the falsity of the beleif in the first place. Indeed it would mean that if he saw a text from Alalh's Messenger or a saying from the four Caliphs with other than his own Imaam, he would have to abandon the text and the sayings of the Compainions and give precedence to the saying of his own Imaam.


Rather, he should seek from whom he wishes from the followers of the four madhhabs and others besides them. It is not obligatory upon him or upon the one who delievers verdicts (muftee) to limit himself to one of the four Imaams. Upon this is the consensus of the ummah, just as it is not obligatory upon the scholar to restrict himself to the hadeeths reported by the people of his land or any land in particlular, rather, if any hadeeth is authentic it is obligatory to act upon it, (*) whether it is reported of the people of the Hijaaz, 'Iraaq, Shaam, Egypt or Yeme." (**)
.................................................. .................................................

(*) Aboo Haneefah said, "When I say something contradicting the Book of Allah, the Exalted, or what is narrated from the Messenger, then ignore my saying," al-Fulaani in Eeqaaz al-Himam (p.50), tracing it to Imaam Muhammad and then saying, "This does not aplly to the mujtahid, for he is not bound to their view anyway, but it applies to blind-following." Imaam Maalik said, "Truly I am only a mortal. I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look inot my opinions, all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it. And all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it," Ibn 'Abdul-Barr in Jaami' Bayaanal-Ilm (2/32). Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee said, "The sunnahs of the Messenger of Allah reach, as well as escape from, everyone of us. So whnever I voice my opinion or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messnger of Allah, then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allah has said- and it is my view," related by Haakim with a continuous chain of narration to Shaafi'ee, as in Taareekh Dimashq of Ibn 'Asaakir (15/1/3), I'laamul-Muwaqqi'een (2/363, 364). And he also said "The Muslim are unanimously agree that if a sunnah of the Messenger of Allah os made clear to someone, it is not permitted for him to leave it for the saying on anyone else." Ibn al-Qayyim (2/361) and Fulaani (p.68). Imaam Ahmad said, "The opinion of Awaa'ee, the opinion of Maalik, the opinion of Aboo Haneefah- all of it is opinion, and it is all equal in my eyes. However, the proof is in the narrations (from the Prophet and his Companions)," Ibn 'Abul-Barr in Jaami' Bayaan al-'ilm (2/149).


(**) I'laamul-Mwwaqqi'een (4/261).
And with regards to Bukhri I am talking about people like us who can read, other rules and regulations is is another issue. The layman has no madhab.

thread closed!
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
05-01-2007, 03:07 PM
:salamext:

As Al-Mu'minah said, the thread has been closed. Both sides have presented their evidences, and it is better the thread gets closed before one of us speaks without knowledge.

I would like to direct you all to a post made by our brother Kadafi:

http://www.islamicboard.com/477932-post15.html

There are threads on taqleed in the sects and division section, so check it out inshaAllah. And verily Allah knows best.

:wasalamex
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-10-2011, 05:48 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-01-2011, 11:23 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-25-2011, 02:16 PM
  4. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-06-2006, 07:01 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-07-2006, 10:23 AM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!