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islamirama
05-01-2007, 01:59 PM
IslamOnline.net & News Agencies

NEW YORK — The overwhelming majority of peoples in four leading Muslim countries believe that the US is taking its global war on terror as a guise to undermine Islam and divide the Muslim world, a poll by the Washington-based WorldPublicOpinion.org showed on Tuesday, April 24.

"While US leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the US as being at war with Islam," Steven Kull, WPO editor, said in a statement carried by Reuters.

The survey, conducted by WPO and Maryland University, was based on face-to-face interviews of between 1,000 and 1,200 people from December to February.

It showed that more than 70 percent of Egyptians, Moroccans, Indonesians and Pakistanis believe the US is trying to weaken and divide the Islamic world.

More than 40 percent thought that was the primary goal of the war on terror, while only 12 percent thought America's aim was to protect itself from future attacks.

Most Egyptians, Indonesians and Moroccans said establishing a Palestinian state was not a US goal.

Sweeping majorities in the four countries — including 89 percent in Egypt and 63 percent in Morocco — believe the US was controlling most or nearly all of what happens in today's world.

More than half of those polled believed the US was trying to spread Christianity, while nearly 60 percent thought one of its goals was to control oil resources.

A poll for the Arab American Institute last year showed that Arab attitudes toward the US grew increasingly negative after the Iraq war.

A January poll for the BBC showed that an overwhelming majority in 25 countries had negative views of US foreign policies.

Mixed

While many of the respondents disapproved of Osama Bin Laden and attacks on civilians, large majorities supported Al-Qaeda's goals, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

"Only three in ten view Osama bin Laden positively," the poll found.

Large majorities (67 percent overall) believe Al-Qaeda attacks on civilians are contrary to Islam, but agree with some of the goals of the network.

Most agreed that Al-Qaeda goals included requiring a strict application of Shari`ah and throwing US military forces from Muslim countries — and most were supportive of those aims.

A full 91 percent of Egyptians and 69 percent of Moroccans said they approved of attacks against US soldiers in Iraq, while 61 percent of Indonesians disapproved.

Pakistanis appeared divided on the matter, with 31 percent for such attacks and 33 against.

The survey found similar responses with regard to US forces in Afghanistan and the Gulf.

The poll also found uncertainty about whether Al Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

On those responsible for the grisly attacks, which killed 3,000 people, the most common answer was "don't know."

A poll by the respectable British think-tank Chatham House showed in September that Al-Qaeda was losing sympathy in the broad Muslim world over discomfort about the association of Islam with violence and the indiscriminate civilian killings.

It noted, however, that the Iraq war has given a momentum to Al-Qaeda's recruitment and fundraising.

Source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout
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Abdul Fattah
05-01-2007, 02:05 PM
Personally I think that is paranoia.
I don't think the US-administration cares enough about Islam to purposely target them. Most of the time they have different motives such as gaining money and gaining power, whether or not the victims of their plots are Muslims doesn't matter that much, safe for the fact that given the current world-view, they can get away with targeting Muslims a lot easier. But don't think there' "out to get us" it's just a matter of practicality to them.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Personally I think that is paranoia.
I don't think the US-administration cares enough about Islam to purposely target them. Most of the time they have different motives such as gaining money and gaining power, whether or not the victims of their plots are Muslims doesn't matter that much, safe for the fact that given the current world-view, they can get away with targeting Muslims a lot easier. But don't think there' "out to get us" it's just a matter of practicality to them.
majority of the muslims think otherwise. I guess if you are on the receiving end or know someone or kin who is then you would think otherwise.
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Abdul Fattah
05-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
majority of the muslims think otherwise. I guess if you are on the receiving end or know someone or kin who is then you would think otherwise.
Perhaps, you're right, but I just can't see how "defeat of Muslims" would be a motive. Normally you'd expect that one questions drives them: "What's in it for me?". So what does US-government have to gain from defeating Muslims? Not much, so I doubt that is their motive. However, if their goal is only to gain wealth and gain power, and defeating Muslims is just something that unfortunately comes with it, then that makes a lot more sense in understanding their motives. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
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guyabano
05-01-2007, 02:28 PM
As already mentionned above: This is purerly paranoia ! Only terrorism is targeted worldwide, and nothing else !
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Perhaps, you're right, but I just can't see how "defeat of Muslims" would be a motive. Normally you'd expect that one questions drives them: "What's in it for me?". So what does US-government have to gain from defeating Muslims? Not much, so I doubt that is their motive. However, if their goal is only to gain wealth and gain power, and defeating Muslims is just something that unfortunately comes with it, then that makes a lot more sense in understanding their motives. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
well there are number of things involved.

1. oil
2. spread of islam
3. end of US rule over the world.

Why else would US bomb a place like somalia with the excuse of "al qaeda" hiding there, and why else would the help the fake gov't there agaisnt the islamic courts and help ethopians invade somalia. Ethopians ban hijab in somalia and ripped it off of anyone who wore it in publilc. There is mass rape going on now there as well. US is afraid if shariah worked in a place like somalia then other countries will follow. Then no more puppet rulers to do their bidding and kill their own citizens like musharaf, barak, saudi, jordon and what not. Big things come into play if you look at the whole picture.

And if you look around, this war on terror (islam) is directed towards Muslims onlyl. How many BJP hindu extremists have been arrested, what about zionists war criminals or russian or others that are committing war crimes. why not US on political people that have qualified as war criminals by international and US laws.
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Abdul Fattah
05-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Selam aleykum
Brother aren't you now saying the exact same thing as I said 2 posts ago? Namely that it's not about fighting Muslims, it's about gaining wealth and gaining power. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Selam aleykum
Brother aren't you now saying the exact same thing as I said 2 posts ago? Namely that it's not about fighting Muslims, it's about gaining wealth and gaining power. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best
wa'alaikum as'salaam

i think #2 and 3 relates to musilms. why is it that a muslim with beard or hijabi or niqabi is thoroughly checked and even frisked at security and non-hijabi and cleaned shaved muslims go w/o trouble?
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 03:13 PM
Just a heads up, but fighting wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan isn't cheap. There is no profit being made from it. It has only added to the already out of control U.S. debt. The only way the U.S. would make any profit from these conflicts would be to completely take over the oil resources and the economy in general. That is not happening at all. This is not a colonization.

Then one can address the issue from a more practical side. The U.S. is home to a fairly large Muslim community. They are free to practice their religion without limitations. The U.S. doesn't even debate the issue of veils or any garb with religious significance. The only minor event involving this issue was about drivers licences.

The only reason this issue is being brought up is because the U.S. is involved in a conflict against terrorism and extremists that haven't exactly been minding their own business. Afghanistan is a perfect example of that. Iraq is a different matter, but the target there was Saddam Hussein, not Muslims.
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Abdul Fattah
05-01-2007, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Just a heads up, but fighting wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan isn't cheap. There is no profit being made from it. It has only added to the already out of control U.S. debt. The only way the U.S. would make any profit from these conflicts would be to completely take over the oil resources and the economy in general. That is not happening at all. This is not a colonization.

Then one can address the issue from a more practical side. The U.S. is home to a fairly large Muslim community. They are free to practice their religion without limitations. The U.S. doesn't even debate the issue of veils or any garb with religious significance. The only minor event involving this issue was about drivers licences.
Well don't forget there's a difference between personal gain and public gain. It might be true that this war has added debt to the US as a nation, but coincedentially it has also generated money for certain individuals and company's from within the Us, the same company's and people who have a proportional amount of power in the US government. So they are not only damaging the Muslims for there personal gain, but in a way you could see it as bleeding dry their own country.

Ps: islamirama, got a beard and a cap on my head, and never had any problems on planes. sure there have been some incidents especially in the US, but in this case I say they have just cause to do check ups.
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well don't forget there's a difference between personal gain and public gain. It might be true that this war has added debt to the US as a nation, but coincedentially it has also generated money for certain individuals and company's from within the Us, the same company's and people who have a proportional amount of power in the US government. So they are not only damaging the Muslims for there personal gain, but in a way you could see it as bleeding dry their own country.
No doubt there are individuals and companies who benefit from war, that has always been the case in every country. However, it still takes congressional approval to declare war or to sanction the use of force. It isn't like the president can simply wake up one day and "We're invading Iraq". I don't have much respect for President Bush either, stemming from other issues, but I don't believe he started a war for personal profit or profit for his business interests. Haliburton, which is usually the company people point to as making money from the war, has actually lost money on the reconstruction because the chaos there makes it impossible to really get a project started.
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DaNgErOuS MiNdS
05-01-2007, 03:29 PM
Has anything positive come from these wars?? I think they've just added fuel to the flame.

I remember watching a programme which said the biggest pofiters of the war were the people making the ammunition and those who hold shares in the companies.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No doubt there are individuals and companies who benefit from war, that has always been the case in every country. However, it still takes congressional approval to declare war or to sanction the use of force. It isn't like the president can simply wake up one day and "We're invading Iraq". I don't have much respect for President Bush either, stemming from other issues, but I don't believe he started a war for personal profit or profit for his business interests. Haliburton, which is usually the company people point to as making money from the war, has actually lost money on the reconstruction because the chaos there makes it impossible to really get a project started.
But the president did wake up and said, we're declaring war. saddam had been in power for decades and no body cared, why the need to take him down now? and who has the authority to take a sovereign down of another nation? i think the following videos show quite well how much of it is a war against Muslims....


Hidden Massacre of Fallujah
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...64675735&hl=en

Hidden Massacre ofHaditha
http://www.youtube.com/v/nY9CG3t0sVg

Why Middle East bleeds
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+e ast+bleeds

Israeli Strip Searching Women and Children
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...48687549&hl=en

War Crimes - Bush Stands Accused
http://www.youtube.com/v/TgWWO0MgFDE

Guantanamo - "Caged Animals" of the Bush Regime
http://www.youtube.com/v/0vlQ-RtKn9k
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yahia12
05-01-2007, 03:34 PM
They target terrorists and makes liberty for many people. afghanistan and iraq. :)
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by DaNgErOuS MiNdS
Has anything positive come from these wars?? I think they've just added fuel to the flame.

I remember watching a programme which said the biggest pofiters of the war were the people making the ammunition and those who hold shares in the companies.
There is nothing "positive" about war, only goals. The war in Afghanistan achieved its goals except for the death of Bin Laden, but the Al-Qaeda safe haven was largely destroyed, not to mention many enemy fighters. It is a little unclear what the goal was in Iraq, as the mission turned into a nation building exercise.

I'm sure ammunition companies are making a profit, but that isn't unusual or shocking.
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doodlebug
05-01-2007, 03:37 PM
If the US were against muslims then how come, if for example my employer told me to take off my hijaab, I could rightfully sue the youknowwhat out of him and win since it's my legal right to wear hijaab and since our laws say that there is no discrimination against religion.

You'd think they'd start at home first if that were the case.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
There is nothing "positive" about war, only goals. The war in Afghanistan achieved its goals except for the death of Bin Laden, but the Al-Qaeda safe haven was largely destroyed, not to mention many enemy fighters. It is a little unclear what the goal was in Iraq, as the mission turned into a nation building exercise.

I'm sure ammunition companies are making a profit, but that isn't unusual or shocking.
funny thing is that al-qaeda never were in afghanistan. It was a nation being ruled by talebans, who came to power by the demand of the public against the war lords that were ravageing the country. And iraq was invaded us of WMD which turned out to be a big lie, so why is the occupation still there?
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by doodlebug
If the US were against muslims then how come, if for example my employer told me to take off my hijaab, I could rightfully sue the youknowwhat out of him and win since it's my legal right to wear hijaab and since our laws say that there is no discrimination against religion.

You'd think they'd start at home first if that were the case.
In home they are limited becuase not everyone is with them. Why else do you think they feel the need to ship "suspects" to torture cells in europe and egypt and other states?
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yahia12
05-01-2007, 03:42 PM
This has nothing to do with religion, it is only fanatics and terrorist that involves islam into it. Its about creating demcracy and take the murderers and terorrists away.

Usa is helping alot.
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
But the president did wake up and said, we're declaring war. saddam had been in power for decades and no body cared, why the need to take him down now? and who has the authority to take a sovereign down of another nation? i think the following videos show quite well how much of it is a war against Muslims....


Hidden Massacre of Fallujah
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...64675735&hl=en

Hidden Massacre ofHaditha
http://www.youtube.com/v/nY9CG3t0sVg

Why Middle East bleeds
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+e ast+bleeds

Israeli Strip Searching Women and Children
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...48687549&hl=en

War Crimes - Bush Stands Accused
http://www.youtube.com/v/TgWWO0MgFDE

Guantanamo - "Caged Animals" of the Bush Regime
http://www.youtube.com/v/0vlQ-RtKn9k
Actually that is incorrect. The U.S. had been striking Iraq since the first Gulf War. Iraq was very high on President Clinton's list of priorities, but he was so concerned with opinion polls that he didn't do what his military advisors suggested that he do, which was remove Saddam Hussein. As for who has the authority...Saddam could have and probably should have been removed after he invaded Kuwait. However, there was a cease-fire agreement, and the U.N. mandate didn't give the Coalition the authority to invade Iraq. This was back when people actually took the U.N. seriously. Since the first Gulf War Iraq had provoked Coalition planes in the no-fly zone, had resisted weapons inspections, and on and on. So no, President Bush didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade Iraq.
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
funny thing is that al-qaeda never were in afghanistan. It was a nation being ruled by talebans, who came to power by the demand of the public against the war lords that were ravageing the country. And iraq was invaded us of WMD which turned out to be a big lie, so why is the occupation still there?
Al-Qaeda were never in Afghanistan huh? :rollseyes Never mind, I see this is a waste of time.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Al-Qaeda were never in Afghanistan huh? :rollseyes Never mind, I see this is a waste of time.
al-qaeda is spread over number of countries, and not located in one region. And how come US failed to show evidence when taleban gov't asked for proof? how professional or lawful is that?


Originally Posted by Serdar
This has nothing to do with religion, it is only fanatics and terrorist that involves islam into it. Its about creating demcracy and take the murderers and terorrists away.

Usa is helping alot.
like abu gharib? yea we see how much it's helping...


Hidden Massacre of Fallujah
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...64675735&hl=en

Hidden Massacre of Haditha
http://www.youtube.com/v/nY9CG3t0sVg

War Crimes - Bush Stands Accused
http://www.youtube.com/v/TgWWO0MgFDE

Guantanamo - "Caged Animals" of the Bush Regime
http://www.youtube.com/v/0vlQ-RtKn9k
Reply

Keltoi
05-01-2007, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=islamirama;727352]al-qaeda is spread over number of countries, and not located in one region. And how come US failed to show evidence when taleban gov't asked for proof? how professional or lawful is that?

Al-Qaeda was operating from bases inside of Afghanistan. Yes, they had terrorist cells spread around the world, but the base of operations and training was in Afghanistan. As for why the U.S. didn't show "proof" to the Taliban, beyond the fact that it was a simple ploy to buy Bin Laden time to escape, the Taliban also wanted Bin Laden to be tried in a neutral Muslim country. That condition was unacceptable to the U.S. for obvious reasons.
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DaNgErOuS MiNdS
05-01-2007, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
There is nothing "positive" about war, only goals. The war in Afghanistan achieved its goals except for the death of Bin Laden, but the Al-Qaeda safe haven was largely destroyed, not to mention many enemy fighters. It is a little unclear what the goal was in Iraq, as the mission turned into a nation building exercise.

I'm sure ammunition companies are making a profit, but that isn't unusual or shocking.
If they've achieved their goals why are they still there? I seriouly dont think the fighting going on in Afghanistan against the coalition forces is do with bin laden.

I dont know what's going on in Iraq but US/UK need to pull out
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi

Al-Qaeda was operating from bases inside of Afghanistan. Yes, they had terrorist cells spread around the world, but the base of operations and training was in Afghanistan. As for why the U.S. didn't show "proof" to the Taliban, beyond the fact that it was a simple ploy to buy Bin Laden time to escape, the Taliban also wanted Bin Laden to be tried in a neutral Muslim country. That condition was unacceptable to the U.S. for obvious reasons.
That's a very weak argument or even excuse. If you have to show proof to convict a person in US. Then how can US deem someone else guilty till proven innocent, and attack not a person but a nation based on that premise. You can't bomb another country becuase you said someone did something bad and is hiding there. I wonder how US would react to the mere mention of someone bombing and invading US for anything similiar and not showing proof?

And nothing wrong with taking OBL to neutral country, wouldn't that be the just way to do it? Didn't OJ Simpsion go to different city, how many people in US go to different cities to be tried so there is no bias. If he had come to US, he was condemed to start with. Taleban alteast offered to hold a trial in a neutral country, what good faith did US show?
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
That's a very weak argument or even excuse. If you have to show proof to convict a person in US. Then how can US deem someone else guilty till proven innocent, and attack not a person but a nation based on that premise. You can't bomb another country becuase you said someone did something bad and is hiding there. I wonder how US would react to the mere mention of someone bombing and invading US for anything similiar and not showing proof?

And nothing wrong with taking OBL to neutral country, wouldn't that be the just way to do it? Didn't OJ Simpsion go to different city, how many people in US go to different cities to be tried so there is no bias. If he had come to US, he was condemed to start with. Taleban alteast offered to hold a trial in a neutral country, what good faith did US show?
The point is that the U.S. either wanted Bin Laden in custody or dead. Dead was probably preferrable. The U.S. about the Al-Qaeda training camps inside Afghanistan, so it wasn't like there wasn't probable cause for an attack. The Taliban made the mistake of underestimating the seriousness of U.S. intentions towards Al-Qaeda and those harboring them. The Taliban gave comfort and support to our enemies, and by association were one of our enemies.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The point is that the U.S. either wanted Bin Laden in custody or dead. Dead was probably preferrable. The U.S. about the Al-Qaeda training camps inside Afghanistan, so it wasn't like there wasn't probable cause for an attack. The Taliban made the mistake of underestimating the seriousness of U.S. intentions towards Al-Qaeda and those harboring them. The Taliban gave comfort and support to our enemies, and by association were one of our enemies.
it's easier and cheaper to find someone and kill him then to bomb a whole nation. Taking saddam out was lot cheaper than this. As for probable cause, well the evidence must be shown before one can say we need to bomb those camps present there. The taleban were adamant about protecting their guests and their rights even at the risk of their own destruction, i think they had a good idea what they were info. Then again, it never was about bin laden. There were talks about establishing oil pipes thru afghan upto russia which failed. And then 9-11 happened and bin laden is hiding in afghan and we need to bomb then and after a few months, the first thing US army did was put those pipelines in place as scheduled before all this began. yea it sounds like a conspirarcy theory and far fatched and you probably won't find any evidence at this point. But that's the fact in my opinion and i came across several news articles at the start of this war that confirmed the meetings being held in US and over seas on all this.

Anyways, by your logic. All Muslim nations are allowed to bomb US becuase US is friend of Israel and supports Israel financially and armory wise. And israel is enemy that continues to oppress and massacre Palestinians and occupy their land.
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
it's easier and cheaper to find someone and kill him then to bomb a whole nation. Taking saddam out was lot cheaper than this. As for probable cause, well the evidence must be shown before one can say we need to bomb those camps present there. The taleban were adamant about protecting their guests and their rights even at the risk of their own destruction, i think they had a good idea what they were info. Then again, it never was about bin laden. There were talks about establishing oil pipes thru afghan upto russia which failed. And then 9-11 happened and bin laden is hiding in afghan and we need to bomb then and after a few months, the first thing US army did was put those pipelines in place as scheduled before all this began. yea it sounds like a conspirarcy theory and far fatched and you probably won't find any evidence at this point. But that's the fact in my opinion and i came across several news articles at the start of this war that confirmed the meetings being held in US and over seas on all this.

Anyways, by your logic. All Muslim nations are allowed to bomb US becuase US is friend of Israel and supports Israel financially and armory wise. And israel is enemy that continues to oppress and massacre Palestinians and occupy their land.
"All" Muslim nations? I don't think "all" Muslim nations share your view. As for evidence of the camps, that had existed since the Clinton administration. The U.S. had just been attacked by members of a terrorist organization whose roots were in Afghanistan. It was an act of war and was returned in kind. To believe that Mullah Omar didn't know what Bin Laden was up to is akin to one's head in the sand.

As for the pipeline conspiracy, one would think it would built by now if that was the motivation.
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England
05-01-2007, 07:23 PM
Muslims think everyone "targets Islam."
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Kittygyal
05-01-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by England
Muslims think everyone "targets Islam."
Greetings.
do we think or are we right? :blind:
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England
05-01-2007, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
Greetings.
do we think or are we right? :blind:
I think muslims themselves know the answer to that. You yourself know its bull..

The majority of times it's a look for sympathy and at other times it's an excuse to excuse the Islamic terrorists/terror suspects etc.
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Kittygyal
05-01-2007, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by England
I think muslims themselves know the answer to that. You yourself know its bull..

The majority of times it's a look for sympathy.
Greetings.
Easy now tiger, well not everyone 'targets islam' now eh?
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
"All" Muslim nations? I don't think "all" Muslim nations share your view. As for evidence of the camps, that had existed since the Clinton administration. The U.S. had just been attacked by members of a terrorist organization whose roots were in Afghanistan. It was an act of war and was returned in kind. To believe that Mullah Omar didn't know what Bin Laden was up to is akin to one's head in the sand.

As for the pipeline conspiracy, one would think it would built by now if that was the motivation.
No one said the gov't agrees, the poll shows what the Muslims in those countries think about all of this. US had be supposedly attacked by groups stationed in afghan, nothing is conclusive till full evidence is shown, and a war on speculations doesn't make them right. Bin laden was in afgahn as was his people, who else helped the afghans defeat russia and their occupation. It's interesting how people that fight russia become national heros in US and when they turn against US (another bully), they become terrorists.

anyways, the pipeline is already in place and US did what it's oil buddies wanted. why do you think they handed the mess over to UN and left?
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England
05-01-2007, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by Kittygyal
Greetings.
Easy now tiger, well not everyone 'targets islam' now eh?
Umm.. no as I just said tiger :)
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
No one said the gov't agrees, the poll shows what the Muslims in those countries think about all of this. US had be supposedly attacked by groups stationed in afghan, nothing is conclusive till full evidence is shown, and a war on speculations doesn't make them right. Bin laden was in afgahn as was his people, who else helped the afghans defeat russia and their occupation. It's interesting how people that fight russia become national heros in US and when they turn against US (another bully), they become terrorists.

anyways, the pipeline is already in place and US did what it's oil buddies wanted. why do you think they handed the mess over to UN and left?
When did the U.S. leave Afghanistan? That is news to me.

I wouldn't suggest Americans thought Bin Laden or any other anti-Soviet fighter in Afghanistan was a "national hero" either. So what are you suggesting? That the U.S. staged an attack from Al-Qaeda to justify their attack on Afghanistan? That is a conspiracy and not based in reality. If you want to discuss this issue, stick to the point, which was whether the U.S. is "targeting" Muslims. You've yet to bring anything to the table other than to post a survey and throw out some conspiracy theories.
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
When did the U.S. leave Afghanistan? That is news to me.

I wouldn't suggest Americans thought Bin Laden or any other anti-Soviet fighter in Afghanistan was a "national hero" either. So what are you suggesting? That the U.S. staged an attack from Al-Qaeda to justify their attack on Afghanistan? That is a conspiracy and not based in reality. If you want to discuss this issue, stick to the point, which was whether the U.S. is "targeting" Muslims. You've yet to bring anything to the table other than to post a survey and throw out some conspiracy theories.
You should really keep up with the news then, who do you think is in charge in afghanistan right now?

sticking to the topic, the majority of the Muslims in majority of the nations agree that US is targeting islam. This "war on terror" is instead a 'war on Islam", and we see the only "suspects" in the world being arounded up are Muslims. Guantanamo bay is filled with "suspects" that are being held indifintly without being charged or let go, a place that UK (close ally) and UN has condemed. And look at where US is, it is in all of Muslim lands trying to find "suspects" that are "terrorists" or "sleeper cells" that will wake up in one day and decide to bomb americans. Somebody seems paranoid over here, thinking every Muslim is a possible "sleeper cell" who can wake up anytime. Like we're all laying dorment till we wake up and go red.
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
You should really keep up with the news then, who do you think is in charge in afghanistan right now?

sticking to the topic, the majority of the Muslims in majority of the nations agree that US is targeting islam. This "war on terror" is instead a 'war on Islam", and we see the only "suspects" in the world being arounded up are Muslims. Guantanamo bay is filled with "suspects" that are being held indifintly without being charged or let go, a place that UK (close ally) and UN has condemed. And look at where US is, it is in all of Muslim lands trying to find "suspects" that are "terrorists" or "sleeper cells" that will wake up in one day and decide to bomb americans. Somebody seems paranoid over here, thinking every Muslim is a possible "sleeper cell" who can wake up anytime. Like we're all laying dorment till we wake up and go red.
Well, I do keep up with the news and there are thousands of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Let's go with your "War on Islam" theory. You state that the U.S. in "all Muslim lands"...do you mean that the U.S. is fighting every Muslim country? That is obviously false, so are you suggesting that the U.S. is only involved militarily with Muslim countries? That too is false of course, as the U.S. military is stationed throughout the world and their last military effort before the wars in Afghan and Iraq was against Christians persecuting Muslims...remember that one?

As for Gitmo, how many detainees are in Gitmo now? Maybe 150 or 200? Can't recall exactly, but not all that many in the scheme of things. They will be charged fairly speedily now that the Supreme Court has signed off on military trials.

Now, "sleeper cells". Yes, experience has taught us that those who appear completely normal in their daily lives can pull off terrorist attacks. The U.K. train bombings being only one example. That doesn't mean authorities are watching every single Muslim, as that is obviously impossible, but are concentrating on certain mosques and communities these individuals are known to frequent or have contacts. That isn't a "war on Islam", that is called criminal investigation.
Reply

Philosopher
05-01-2007, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by England
I think muslims themselves know the answer to that. You yourself know its bull..

The majority of times it's a look for sympathy and at other times it's an excuse to excuse the Islamic terrorists/terror suspects etc.
Actually they are right to a great extent. Bush is greatly influenced by right wing Zionist Christians.

Did you ever wonder why Bush is anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion?? That's right- Bush's religion influences his domestic and foreign policies.
Reply

Keltoi
05-01-2007, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Actually they are right to a great extent. Bush is greatly influenced by right wing Zionist Christians.

Did you ever wonder why Bush is anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion?? That's right- Bush's religion influences his domestic and foreign policies.
Right-wing Zionist Christians? Interesting. So you believe Bush's religion tells him to kill Muslims? Interesting, very interesting. +o(
Reply

islamirama
05-01-2007, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Right-wing Zionist Christians? Interesting. So you believe Bush's religion tells him to kill Muslims? Interesting, very interesting. +o(
was it not bush who said he talks to God, and he is going to start a crusade and make a new Middle East on national tv? you really need to watch the right channels man...

Originally Posted by Keltoi
Well, I do keep up with the news and there are thousands of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Let's go with your "War on Islam" theory. You state that the U.S. in "all Muslim lands"...do you mean that the U.S. is fighting every Muslim country? That is obviously false, so are you suggesting that the U.S. is only involved militarily with Muslim countries? That too is false of course, as the U.S. military is stationed throughout the world and their last military effort before the wars in Afghan and Iraq was against Christians persecuting Muslims...remember that one?

As for Gitmo, how many detainees are in Gitmo now? Maybe 150 or 200? Can't recall exactly, but not all that many in the scheme of things. They will be charged fairly speedily now that the Supreme Court has signed off on military trials.

Now, "sleeper cells". Yes, experience has taught us that those who appear completely normal in their daily lives can pull off terrorist attacks. The U.K. train bombings being only one example. That doesn't mean authorities are watching every single Muslim, as that is obviously impossible, but are concentrating on certain mosques and communities these individuals are known to frequent or have contacts. That isn't a "war on Islam", that is called criminal investigation.
US has presense in most if not all muslim countries. The CIA and FBI are working with secrete agnecies of thsoe gov'ts in seeking out and arresting and shipping to gitmo any "suspect" or anyone that dare even talk against US and this illegal war based on lies of WMD.

Gitmo has over 360 detaines, and all of them have been there from 3 to 5yrs without any actions being taken. 3 detaines recently challenged their detention and they too were denied that and the right to challenge. Bush passed laws to make sure none of them even qualify as war combatant and have any chance of international human rights. Bush doesn't want them out, otherwise all his war plans will go down the drain. How can you defend that place when your closes allies, UK, france, UN and rest of the world has condemed it and called for it to be shut down. Even red cross and humanitarian groups have called for it to be shut down. what does US do? they build two more prisons like it that are more secure and torturesome and shipped half the people there instead.

As for sleeper cells. how many sleeper cells planning was done after the Una bomber, or oklahoma bombing, or Tx UT shooting or other such events. The whole "sleeper cell" is a poor laymen excuse to basically say that we can point at any person and say that he can kill us tomorrow. Well with such theory, every human on this earthy is a sleeper cell. Everyone has the potential to get up next day and start killing. Look at VA Tec shooting incident. It's very arrogrant and ignorant of the gov't and it's lackies to go with that appoarch and single out entire Muslim population only as possible sleeper cells. Is this not war agaisnt islam and muslims then what is?
Reply

England
05-01-2007, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
was it not bush who said he talks to God, and he is going to start a crusade and make a new Middle East on national tv? you really need to watch the right channels man...



US has presense in most if not all muslim countries. The CIA and FBI are working with secrete agnecies of thsoe gov'ts in seeking out and arresting and shipping to gitmo any "suspect" or anyone that dare even talk against US and this illegal war based on lies of WMD.

Gitmo has over 360 detaines, and all of them have been there from 3 to 5yrs without any actions being taken. 3 detaines recently challenged their detention and they too were denied that and the right to challenge. Bush passed laws to make sure none of them even qualify as war combatant and have any chance of international human rights. Bush doesn't want them out, otherwise all his war plans will go down the drain. How can you defend that place when your closes allies, UK, france, UN and rest of the world has condemed it and called for it to be shut down. Even red cross and humanitarian groups have called for it to be shut down. what does US do? they build two more prisons like it that are more secure and torturesome and shipped half the people there instead.

As for sleeper cells. how many sleeper cells planning was done after the Una bomber, or oklahoma bombing, or Tx UT shooting or other such events. The whole "sleeper cell" is a poor laymen excuse to basically say that we can point at any person and say that he can kill us tomorrow. Well with such theory, every human on this earthy is a sleeper cell. Everyone has the potential to get up next day and start killing. Look at VA Tec shooting incident. It's very arrogrant and ignorant of the gov't and it's lackies to go with that appoarch and single out entire Muslim population only as possible sleeper cells. Is this not war agaisnt islam and muslims then what is?
Quote us on what Bush said. I don't quite believe he would have got away with saying what you just said.
Reply

Philosopher
05-01-2007, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Right-wing Zionist Christians? Interesting. So you believe Bush's religion tells him to kill Muslims? Interesting, very interesting. +o(
When did I say it was Christianity's fault?? I argued that Bush's Christian supporters greatly influence his foreign policy.
Reply

Philosopher
05-01-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by England
Quote us on what Bush said. I don't quite believe he would have got away with saying what you just said.
You should already know by now that what Bush says and what Bush does are not always in tune with each other :)
Reply

Keltoi
05-01-2007, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by England
Quote us on what Bush said. I don't quite believe he would have got away with saying what you just said.
This whole "Bush talks to God" affair started after Bush met with some Palestinian representatives during the peace process with Israel. According to one of the Palestinian officials, Bush stated that God told him to pursue his current foreign policy. After this got out on the internet and media, the Palestinian in question clarified his position and said he didn't think Bush meant he personally talked to God. As for the whole "Crusade" bit, that is simply people hearing what they want to hear. In the English language the word "crusade" refers to any mass movement or high ideal. It was not referring to the "Crusade" Muslims like to talk about many centuries after the fact.
Reply

Keltoi
05-01-2007, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
When did I say it was Christianity's fault?? I argued that Bush's Christian supporters greatly influence his foreign policy.
Bush's foreign policy is mainly affected by his father's former advisors, most of which are Jewish in faith, with the exclusion of Cheney and Rumsfeld.
Reply

islamirama
05-01-2007, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by England
Quote us on what Bush said. I don't quite believe he would have got away with saying what you just said.
On Sunday, Bush warned Americans that "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile." He and other US officials have said that renegade Islamic fundamentalist Osama bin Laden is the most likely suspect in the attacks.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html

former commander and 13-year veteran of the Army's top-secret Delta Force is also an outspoken evangelical Christian who appeared in dress uniform and polished jump boots before a religious group in Oregon in June to declare that radical Islamists hated the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2003/1016-GodsArmy.html

Originally Posted by Keltoi
This whole "Bush talks to God" affair started after Bush met with some Palestinian representatives during the peace process with Israel. According to one of the Palestinian officials, Bush stated that God told him to pursue his current foreign policy. After this got out on the internet and media, the Palestinian in question clarified his position and said he didn't think Bush meant he personally talked to God. As for the whole "Crusade" bit, that is simply people hearing what they want to hear. In the English language the word "crusade" refers to any mass movement or high ideal. It was not referring to the "Crusade" Muslims like to talk about many centuries after the fact.
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"\
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml


Reply

yahia12
05-01-2007, 09:06 PM
Crusade"????? yeaaah right loooooooooool
Reply

yahia12
05-01-2007, 09:13 PM
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"\
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre.../06/bush.shtml"

So what is wrong with that? he brings peace and freedom for the afghabni and iraqi people, and they give support to palestinians.

Usa makes peace. :)
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islamirama
05-01-2007, 09:15 PM
And the people have spoken!
An average of more than 75 percent of respondents across the four countries – Egypt, Morocco, and the world's two most populous Muslim nations, Indonesia and Pakistan – said they believed that dividing and weakening the Islamic world and maintaining control over Middle East oil were key goals of U.S. foreign policy, according to the survey by the University of Maryland (UM) and WorldPublicOpinion.org (WPO).

And an average of two out of three respondents named "expand[ing] the geographic borders of Israel" as a third major U.S. policy objective in the region.

By contrast, less than one in four agreed that Washington wanted to create "an independent and economically viable Palestinian state," despite Bush's explicit endorsement of that goal since before the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Sixty-four percent of respondents in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Morocco said another U.S. goal was to "spread Christianity in the region." The question was not asked in Egypt.

"While U.S. leaders may frame the conflict as a war on terrorism, people in the Islamic world clearly perceive the U.S. as being at war with Islam," said WorldPublicOpinion.org editor Steven Kull, who also directs the UM Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA). "There's a feeling of being under siege."

Strong majorities in Pakistan (68 percent), Morocco (72 percent), and Egypt (86 percent) chose either "weakening and dividing the Islamic religion and its people" or "achieving political and military domination to control Middle East resources." An average of only 13 percent of respondents in the same three countries said the primary U.S. goal was to "protect itself from terrorist attacks."

As for attitudes about al-Qaeda itself, an average of 15 percent of respondents said they supported the group's attacks on U.S. targets; while 23 percent said they oppose such attacks but share the group's attitudes toward the United States. Another 26 percent said they oppose both its attacks and its attitudes towards the U.S., while 37 percent (including two-thirds of all Pakistanis) declined to answer. Support for al-Qaeda attacks on U.S. targets was highest in Egypt (25 percent) and Indonesia (15 percent).


But respondents made a clear distinction between what kinds of attacks they considered permissible. While an average of about half of all respondents (and much higher percentages in the two Arab states) said they either "strongly" or "somewhat" approved of attacks against U.S. soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere in the region, only a tiny fraction – well under 10 percent – said they approved of attacks against civilians, either in the region or in the United States.

Only two percent of Pakistanis believed that al-Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, compared to 34 percent who said they believed the U.S. government or Israel was behind them.


Christine Fair, a South Asia specialist at the U.S. Institute of Peace, suggested that that result may reflect confusion about the group's leaders who "20 years ago were 'freedom fighters,' and now they're 'terrorists.' Folks just don't believe al-Qaeda did this."


Full survey @ http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf
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Fishman
05-01-2007, 09:16 PM
:sl:
I don't have a simplistic enough worldview to think that the US wants to wipe out Islam. I do, however, believe that the US specifically targets 'radical Islam', a fact which is evident from Somali, Afganistan, Iran etc., and regards religious conservative Muslims with great suspicion.
:w:
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Keltoi
05-01-2007, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I don't have a simplistic enough worldview to think that the US wants to wipe out Islam. I do, however, believe that the US specifically targets 'radical Islam', a fact which is evident from Somali, Afganistan, Iran etc., and regards religious conservative Muslims with great suspicion.
:w:
That statement I'm willing to agree with.
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Muezzin
05-01-2007, 09:48 PM
Me three.

Nothing like a good survey to get everybody's panties in a bunch. I wish they'd put questions like this on Family Fortunes.

Host: We asked one hundred Muslims to blame a country for everything that is wrong in the world

Contestant: Brazil!

Host: And our survey said...

Reply

Amadeus85
05-01-2007, 11:01 PM
And according to this survey, only 25 % of muslims believe that Al Quaeda made attcks on World Trade Center...So who did this in their opinion? My friend from Egypt said that many Egyptians believe that Jews organized this tragic attacks..
Reply

Keltoi
05-02-2007, 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
And according to this survey, only 25 % of muslims believe that Al Quaeda made attcks on World Trade Center...So who did this in their opinion? My friend from Egypt said that many Egyptians believe that Jews organized this tragic attacks..
That doesn't surprise me in the least.
Reply

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