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AnonymousPoster
05-01-2007, 02:03 PM
I am a Muslim, born and raised, or perhaps I should have said, was. I can not bring myself to believe in God. I have no problem with Islam and practicing it, but I can't for the life of me believe in God.

Care to convince me?
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Snowflake
05-01-2007, 04:46 PM
I don't quite get you. You don't have a problem with Islam or practicing it, yet you don't believe in God? Where d'you think Islam came from? Roald Dahl? ^o)
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Pk_#2
05-01-2007, 04:50 PM
Convince you?

Isn't the Qur'an enough :D

I mean you either want paradise or the hell fire,

lemme tell you even a small burn or paper cut kills me

i dun wana go hell!! :'(

So yeah Read the Qur'an Ask Allah (swt) to guide you, and forgive you.

Peace
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anonymous
05-01-2007, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
I don't quite get you. You don't have a problem with Islam or practicing it, yet you don't believe in God?
Its not that hard a concept to grasp. Let me list it for you, step by step.

1) Some part of me WANTS to believe in God, or else I would not be here. Belief is not something I can switch on and off. It has to come from depth of thought and research, and belief should be with conviction, which is why I came to this forum to ask people who have the fortune of being able to believe.
2) I do not have a problem with Islam, because none of that anti-Islamic codswallop really convinces me, and after arduous research, I still conclude that all the slander against Muhammad is false.
3) I do not have a problem with practicing Islam, because from what I have read, there are no really crazy rituals or things which generally tend to come from ignorant cultural customs.

Where d'you think Islam came from? Roald Dahl?
Funny, in fact its so funny and convincing, I now believe in God.
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Muhammad
05-01-2007, 05:26 PM
:sl:

One of the greatest signs of Allaah that we have is the Qur'an: the Speech of Allaah (swt). Have you tried reading it and understanding what it means? Many people have found Islam simply by the message of the Qur'an.
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Abdul Fattah
05-01-2007, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Anonymous Tester
I am a Muslim, born and raised, or perhaps I should have said, was. I can not bring myself to believe in God. I have no problem with Islam and practicing it, but I can't for the life of me believe in God.

Care to convince me?
Hi anonymous.
First of All, I pray that Allah subhana wa ta'ala guides you.
Don't think that because you're raised as a Muslim, that you're not entitled to search for yourself. People often take it for granted that if you're raised a muslim that you should believe. But just as people raised in a non-muslim family you will have to search for the truth yourself too.

That being said, I should start by saying that I won't be able to convince you, if you don't give me the benefit of the doubt. In the end of the day, religion is a matter of belief. You either do, or you don't. And if you already made up your mind not to believe, but are only here in a vain attempt to get some piece of mind (if you are only here to justify your choice); then there is nothing that I can say that will change that. But if you are genuinely seeking answers. Then I will try to clear any question that obstructs you from believing as much as Allah subhana wa ta'ala allows me to.

Maybe to get a conversation started, I should ask you to answer the following questions and take it from there:

1.1. Have you read the Qur'an or a translation of the Qur'an?
1.2. If yes, do you believe it could be man-made?

2.1. Do you have any unanswered questions in your mind that keep you from believing? Or perhaps any rules in Islam that don't seem justified to you?
2.2. Do you have any grounds to disbelieve? Anything that convinces you that Islam is false?

3.1. If you try and assume that Islam is true; what would it take for you to believe in it? What do you require in order to believe? Would you only believe it if there are clear and undebatable proofs, or do you reckon that probability is enough for you to believe in it?
3.2. If judgment day comes, and you are asked to justify in words why you did not belief, what would you answer?

I'm looking foreward for your replies. Oh, and if I sounded condescending or judgemental, please forgive me, it was not in any case my intention.
May Allah subhana wa ta'ala guide you
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anonymous
05-02-2007, 08:41 AM
1.1. Have you read the Qur'an or a translation of the Qur'an?
1.2. If yes, do you believe it could be man-made?
1.1 - I have indeed read large portions of the Qur'an, although I must say, I have never read its translation from cover to cover.
1.2 - From what I have read, I'm fairly impartial on that question so far.


2.1. Do you have any unanswered questions in your mind that keep you from believing? Or perhaps any rules in Islam that don't seem justified to you?
2.2. Do you have any grounds to disbelieve? Anything that convinces you that Islam is false?
2 - There is this one. The concept of Hell. I'll try to explain.

God created Mankind to worship him. God will grant infinite paradise to those who follow his will. So basically, worship God, follow his laws, and paradise shall be yours.

Those who choose not to believe in him, will be subject to infinite torture in the afterlife. God has no NEED for Mankind. God is also Most Merciful. So now I wonder, if God who states in the Qur'an that he has no need for Mankind, really does not need it, then why would he create Mankind? Wouldn't he out of his infinite mercy, have not created a place such as hell, where all disbelievers shall be tortured for ETERNITY. Just for merely disbelieving in him. Surely, a supreme, majestic, deity such as Allah cannot become angered at the refusal of mere mortals to praise him (the praise and worship which he is not in need of mind). Isn't this ascribing to him the attributes of a human. Anger and Vanity. Are these not traits that God the Most Merciful should be free from? I know that in your answer somewhere the issue of life being a test may come up, so I ask. WHY is God testing us? He has no need for us to be. If he was truly merciful, and for some reason needed to create Humans, he would have kept us all in paradise, or created humans with a different nature.

3.1. If you try and assume that Islam is true; what would it take for you to believe in it? What do you require in order to believe? Would you only believe it if there are clear and undebatable proofs, or do you reckon that probability is enough for you to believe in it?
3.2. If judgment day comes, and you are asked to justify in words why you did not belief, what would you answer?
3.1 - I think that in order for me to believe, I just need to be able to grasp the concept of believing in God.
3.2 - This is the bit that worries me, as I really wish I could believe, but I just can't. And lets say for arguments sake Judgement Day DOES come, and the religion I was brought up with is indeed correct, I cannot put it in any other way but say "I'm screwed".
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Snowflake
05-02-2007, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
Its not that hard a concept to grasp. Let me list it for you, step by step.





Funny, in fact its so funny and convincing, I now believe in God.
Thank you for the list. It's just that your post seemed contradictory before.


1) Some part of me WANTS to believe in God, or else I would not be here. Belief is not something I can switch on and off. It has to come from depth of thought and research, and belief should be with conviction, which is why I came to this forum to ask people who have the fortune of being able to believe.
I sincerely advise you to read the Quran and understand it's meanings. Been born and raised as a muslim doesn't necessarily fix someone's belief in God. There (as I used to think) are occasional, sometimes strong, sometimes fleeting doubts as to whether there really is a God or not. Of course being born & raised as a muslim myself didn't fix my imaan in a permanently solid belief. I too did wonder sometimes. But that was until I read the Quran.

Once the few of my misunderstandings or misinterpretations of Quranic verses/shariah laws had been cleared, I turned to the scientific facts in the Quran. I don't have to tell you what the world was like 1400 years ago and how much we've advanced since, but I found that the Quran contained scientific facts of which 80% have been confirmed true by scientists. The remaining 20% will to be proven in time inshaAllah. Although, not all scientists investigating the scientific facts in the wrong reverted, ultimately they all came to the same conclusion that the Quran was a source of Divine Knowledge and could not have been penned by man - let alone an illiterate one.


Also, it's worth pondering over the fact that if the Quran was written by man, and he'd made some calculating guesses, today some of them would have been proven false. The 20% that has not been proven remains unknown but not disproven.

I remember reading some statements from scientists after scientific investigations of the relating Quranic verses. I'd like to share with you their statetments.


E. Marshall Johnson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.




"I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..." (excerpt)


Joe Leigh Simpson

Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.




"... these Hadîths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islâm) but in fact religion (Islâm) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'ân shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'ân having been derived from God."


Gerald C. Goeringer

Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.




"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'ânic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."



Alfred Kroner

Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.




"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'ân in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'ân is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."


Yushidi Kusan

Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.




"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'ân, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'ân and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."




Tejatat Tejasen

Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand
.



"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'ân... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'ân fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.

Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.

I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...

The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."


statements of other scientists & source: http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...ran1.htm?20072


2) I do not have a problem with Islam, because none of that anti-Islamic codswallop really convinces me, and after arduous research, I still conclude that all the slander against Muhammad is false.
3) I do not have a problem with practicing Islam, because from what I have read, there are no really crazy rituals or things which generally tend to come from ignorant cultural customs.
That's a good start. Islam is the complete and only system of guidence for mankind which has failed to become obsolete over time. No man could have designed a system/law that remains uncorrupted even 1400 years after his death. Can any religious leader/king/politician devise a system to benefit the whole of mankind but his people (if that) and for that system to be flawless and just? Impossible! Even the previous scriptures did not stand the test of time. But it was Allah subhana wa ta'ala's promise to protect His Word that we have the lthe miracle of the Qur'an with us today and will do until the End.

Don't you agree that such foul-proof and intricate schemes of perfection could only be decreed by the Master of the heavens and Earth - Allah subhana wa ta'ala?


Nobody can convince you, only guide you to the path that inshaAllah leads to conviction. Ultimately, it is Allah who guides. May Allah have mercy on you and us and guide you to the Truth. Please read the Quran.
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Abdul Fattah
05-02-2007, 03:27 PM
Selam aleykum anonymous, thanks for your reply

1.2 - From what I have read, I'm fairly impartial on that question so far.
Well I think this is definitely relevant. As opposed to Christians and Jews, who can only believe that Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) performed miracles on believing the eye-witnesses report, we can see the miracle of the Qur'an right now, and check it up. For the many profound, the many articulate and accurate, the many scientificly correct, and the many verses that testify of infinite insight in human psychology, I can honestly find no alternative explanation safe for: "it is genuine.".

Wouldn't he out of his infinite mercy, have not created a place such as hell
It is true, that Allah subhana wa ta'ala doesn't need us. But I don't know if Allah subhana wa ta'ala his mercy is infinite, only Allah knows that. What we do know is that he is the most mercyfull. It could be that that means infinite mercy, but it could also be that he has a finite number of mercy that no competitor equals in. And Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows. This might already hint you to half of the answer, but there is more to take under consideration. Some people might simply be beyond mercy. Because if the mercy of Allah subhana wa ta'ala is infinite as you suggest, and also applies to everyone, wouldn't that compromise other characteristics? I don't know and Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best. I'm just thinking Allah subhana wa ta'ala is also the most just. And quite frankly it wouldn't seem just to me, if people like Hitler on one hand, and prophets on the other hand, would be granted the same verdict in judgment.

Remember:
Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden, nor do I tell you I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me." Say: "can the blind be held equal to the seeing?" Will ye then consider not? (6:50)
"Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of) his own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own (harm): I am not (here) to watch over your doings." (6:104)


Isn't this ascribing to him the attributes of a human. Anger and Vanity.
Well Yes and no. When Allah subhana wa ta'ala has an attribute it is not comparable to us. For example if Allah subhana wa ta'ala is angry, he has every right to be. You cannot compare it to human anger, which is most of the time unjustified. As for vanity, I don't think it's vain in the first place, since Allah subhana wa ta'ala has every right to be worshipped.

let me quote the Qur'an inshaAllah:
Allah puts forward the example of (two men - a believer and a disbeliever); a servant under the possession of another, he has no power of any sort (16:75)
And Allah puts forward (another) example of two men, one of them dumb, who has no power over anything, and he is a burden on his master; whichever way he directs him, he brings no good. Is such a man equal to one who commands justice? (16:76)


And in another surah:
He sets for you a parable from your own selves: Do you have any partners among those whom your right hand possess (i.e. your servants) to share as equals in the wealth we have bestowed on you? (30:28)

WHY is God testing us? He has no need for us to be. If he was truly merciful, and for some reason needed to create Humans, he would have kept us all in paradise, or created humans with a different nature.
Your question is similar to the question that the angels made upon hearing that Allah subhana wa ta'ala would create us and test us.
Let me again quote from the Qur'an inshaAllah:
And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therin those who will make mischief therin and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." (2:30)
And He taught Adam all the names (of everything), then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." (2:31)
They (angels said: "Glory is to You, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, You are the Knower, the Wise." (2:32)
He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the Ghayb (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"


Why does he want to test us?
Well again I quote the qur'an:
It is He Who hath made you (His) agents, inheritors of the earth: He hath raised you in ranks, some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (6:165)
And in another surah it says:
And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun, after it has become strong. Nor take your oaths to practise deception between yourselves, lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree. (16:92)
If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)

Or:
That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct. (18:7)
And finally:
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested? (29:2)
We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false. (29:3)


3.1 - I think that in order for me to believe, I just need to be able to grasp the concept of believing in God.
Yes that is indeed a tricky part as us humans have a tendency to assume similarity to the things we are familiar with.
3.2 - This is the bit that worries me, as I really wish I could believe, but I just can't. And lets say for arguments sake Judgment Day DOES come, and the religion I was brought up with is indeed correct, I cannot put it in any other way but say "I'm screwed".
I guess that's why you're here then. :) Anyway, my apologies for being a bit skeptic and ranting on about sincereness in the last post, I think it's clear now that you are really here for a genuine search for answers. May Allah subhana wa ta'ala guide you.
And I hope this post was a bit helpful, don't hesitate to ask follow up questions, or to add new stuff you wish to bring up or think is relevant.
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Woodrow
05-02-2007, 03:38 PM
Two of my favorite books are:

"Pleasures of a Non-Conformist" and "Good Uses for Our Bad Instincts"

Doubt is mentioned in both of them. Doubt when properly applied is an excellent tool to help establish or re-establish faith and belief.

Doubt is an uncomfortable feeling. to end that uncomfortable feeling we need to search on our own and discover for our selves. we need to read and ask questions. Doubt is a tool that will force us to work, unless we choose to live in doubt.

Doubt comes about when our knowledge is based only upon the words of others and we have never searched to discover why we were told those things.


work to remove Doubt and your own upbringing will lead you to the Faith you so much desire.
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anonymous
05-02-2007, 04:47 PM
I would like to thank everyone for answering :).

I am happy with what has been said, though I am still far from believing staunchly. My next 2 steps, that I have taken from the above posts is to

  1. Read the Qur'an in its entirety, in an unbiased perspective.
  2. Make Dua, that I am guided.
P.S. Regarding point 2, will God listen though? I mean I am currently an unbeliever in a sense.
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Abdul Fattah
05-02-2007, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous
I would like to thank everyone for answering :).

I am happy with what has been said, though I am still far from believing staunchly. My next 2 steps, that I have taken from the above posts is to
You're welcom, oh btw I forgot to add in previous post since I was in a hurry to catch salaat-al-asr, I realise that the verses I quoted are not straight-on answers, and they require for you to "puzzle" a bit on it. I just thought I would leave that part to you instead of spoon-feeding you. However if there is an answer that you don't fully understand (why I posted that verse to that answer), feel free to ask for further explanation inshaAllah.

[*]Read the Qur'an in its entirety, in an unbiased perspective.[*]Make Dua, that I am guided.[/LIST]P.S. Regarding point 2, will God listen though? I mean I am currently an unbeliever in a sense.
MashaAllah, I believe those will be sufficient inshaAllah even though technically speaking you are at this point non-believing, you seem sincere in wanting to believe, but it's more like a matter of making things make sense. May allah subhana wa ta'ala keep that in mind and guide you to the truth inshaAllah.
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