What happens to Muslims who leave Islam?

[August]

I've heard stories of bad things happening to Muslims who change religions, like the man in Afganistan who converted to Christianity being put on trial. So, what happens to Muslims who leave Islam, and what would you do if someone in your family stopped being a Muslim? I am not trying to promote criticizm of Islam, as Christianity has in the past persecuted many for their religious beliefs, and I know former Christians who's families no longer speak to them. What I'm trying to do is learn more about the Muslim attitude towards religious choices. Thanks.

[Woodrow]

In an Islamic Country, such as Afghanistan it must be remembered that Islam is part of every aspect of life. It is not just your religion it is your citizenship. To convert from Islam is treason to your country and can/will be treated as treason. It goes beyond the simple leaving a religion. Those laws do not apply to non-Muslims living in those countries.

In most of those countries where the penalties seem to be so harsh to a non-Muslim, it needs to be remembered that every citizen plays a very active role in the country. Treason is very dangerous to the country and can not be tolerated. Every country has severe punishments for those who commit treason.

In countries that are not Sharia, the law of the country will be followed. Such as here in America, converting may be seen as a bad thing, but it is not treason against America, so there is no criminal crime committed.

[August]

In an Islamic Country, such as Afghanistan it must be remembered that Islam is part of every aspect of life. It is not just your religion it is your citizenship. To convert from Islam is treason to your country and can/will be treated as treason. It goes beyond the simple leaving a religion. Those laws do not apply to non-Muslims living in those countries.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Quran say that there is no compulsion in religion?

[Woodrow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Quran say that there is no compulsion in religion?

True there is no compulsion in Religion. however to live in a country you are required to uphold the laws of the country. Nobody would ever be forced to convert to Islam in an Islamic country. However, a Muslim is part of the government to some degree and to leave Islam is not just leaving the religion it is treason to the country. the man in Afghanistan would never had been tried if he had kept quiet or if he had left the country. It is not so much he could not convert, he could not keep his citizenship. So, he was in the country illegaly and was committing treason.

the final result of the trial was very lenient. He was acquitted and permitted to leave Afghanistan as a Non-Muslim.

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[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Perscution of a person is not allowed in Islam I think unless you become a threat to the people or the country as a whole.
About the man in Afghanistan, if I'm correct. He was a Christian for more than 16 years even before the Taliba. I'm pretty sure the Taliban knew he was Christian, so they woulda done this before hand. So you got to wonder what actually happened there that made them come to the decision. Also during the time of the Prophet(saw), people came to Islam and left and came back to it or left it again, but no one was persecuted.

Allahu Alam(Allah knows best).

[August]

It is not so much he could not convert, he could not keep his citizenship. So, he was in the country illegaly and was committing treason.

Firstly, couldn't that be seen as a form of compulsion? Might someone who doesn't really believe in Islam remain a Muslim so that they don't have to leave their family? And you said he couldn't keep his citizenship, are non-Muslims allowed to be citizens of majority Muslim countries? I had thought that they were.

[islamirama]

Leaving Islam is not only treason to the country but Islam and God. We know christianity came to replace Judaism and Islam came to replace christianity as the next message to the people. A Muslim knows and believes and tesitify that there is only One God with no partners and Muhammad is the last Messenger. Based on this testimony, he is a muslim. So when he goes against his own testimony and turns away from what is the truth then he has error. We humans have treasons laws that are punishable by death, be it the west or the east. So what about the Creator of this world? It is His earth you are living on and when you do treason against Him, what right do you have to live on His land?

Anyways, the punishment is administered by the Islamic state. And before it is done, the person is given 3 days to return to Islam. In that time frame he has access to Muslim scholars or people of knowledge to clear any misunderstandings he may have developed. After 3 days, if he is still defiant then the proper punishment is administered for his treason.

There is no compulsion in Islam, and this is true. No one is forced to convert to islam, if one is forced then their acceptance is not valid and they are free to go. So it applies to converting others to islam not muslims leaving Islam. And it is becuase of this (no compulsion) that a non-Muslim can live under Islamic rule and state without worry off bein forced to convert or be afraid of his life.

As for the Afghanistan guy, the converting to christianity was just a gig. He was just smart enough to figure out how to get out of that place where a war was being raged. Rather then being labeled a "terrorists suspect" or bombed as one of the civilians indiscriminately by the westerners, he played this card and had those very westerners give him free pass, all expeneses paid, relocation to one of their lands. Heck i could've played the same card to get out if I was in that situation and didn't want to be there.

As for those who leave islam in the absense of Islamic rule, like in the west, well the community does what they can to give him information to help clear any misconceptions he developed. If he is adamant abou this way then not much is done but to leave him. Some families still talk and keep ties while others disown and break all ties. I'm sure there's some christians and other faiths that do the same.

[Woodrow]

Firstly, couldn't that be seen as a form of compulsion? Might someone who doesn't really believe in Islam remain a Muslim so that they don't have to leave their family? And you said he couldn't keep his citizenship, are non-Muslims allowed to be citizens of majority Muslim countries? I had thought that they were.

I will go backwards. Yes non-Muslims can be and are citizens in Islamic Countries. The problem is when a Muslim converts to another religion. Being Muslim is not just a religion it is an entire way of life. It is our deen it is all that we do think or say.

To leave Islam in an Islamic country is the same thing as an American citizen denouncing his citizenship and embracing communism. that would not be seen and being very favorable, the punishments and or condemnation would depend on the severity of what a persons actions are.

Many things are permitted to be done to a Muslim who leaves Islam, but they are not required to be done, except when a persons own actions show the person to be a threat to national security.

I should add that to be in a Muslim country is the equivalent of being in a church or synagogue. the entire country is a Mosque. Would the pastor of a Baptist Church be allowed to remain living in the parsonage if he chose to leave Christianity and become a Wiccan? That is what is happening when a Muslim in an Islamic country chooses to leave Islam.

It is very difficult for a non-Muslim to understand the concept of Deen. It is very similar to being the baptized member of a church, except the church extends to the whole country.

If the Pope converted to Islam, do you think it would be right for him to continue living in Vatican City? In Islam each Muslim has the same authority as a Pope has in Catholicism. An Islamic Country is no different then being a large Vatican, except there is no separation of authority and each Muslim is equal to the rest. I hope my analogy makes sense. Astragfirullah

[Uthman]

:sl:

There was a thread about apostasy in Islam here :)

:w:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ I think that's a good analogy :D I've never thought of it that:thumbs_up
Anyway, what happened to my post? I made one before..:X

[August]

To leave Islam in an Islamic country is the same thing as an American citizen denouncing his citizenship and embracing communism. that would not be seen and being very favorable, the punishments and or condemnation would depend on the severity of what a persons actions are.

I see where you're coming from with this, but it doesn't quite work the way you said in regards to American citizens denouncing their country. I have had professors at my University who are American citizens and say that this country is evil. My English professor, born and raised in Alabama, said that America was the most evil country in the world. Nothing bad happened to any of those people, because they are granted the freedom of self-expression. They weren't asked to leave the country is what I'm saying. What I'm getting at is this, what happens in the future, if Muslims become a majority in a country where they are currently a minority, would that country keep its traditions of religious freedom?

[Woodrow]

I see where you're coming from with this, but it doesn't quite work the way you said in regards to American citizens denouncing their country. I have had professors at my University who are American citizens and say that this country is evil. My English professor, born and raised in Alabama, said that America was the most evil country in the world. Nothing bad happened to any of those people, because they are granted the freedom of self-expression. They weren't asked to leave the country is what I'm saying. What I'm getting at is this, what happens in the future, if Muslims become a majority in a country where they are currently a minority, would that country keep its traditions of religious freedom?

I'm an American Also. I do agree with your statement about freedom of speech. I was recalling back to the McCarthy era of the 50s. remember those where my high school years and the most impressionable on me. In my statement I should have said in most countries instead of America.
Freedom o self expression is a necessity when a society is diverse. However, under a homogeneous society, freedom of speech is a moot point as there is very little dissension.



One thing to remember Sharia Law only applies to Muslims. It can not be enforced on non-Muslims. For a country to have Sharia law and be a true Sharia country would be for 100% of the citizens to be Muslim. If that were to happen the people would demand Sharia law.

I see more of a possibility in America for Islamic communities to pass local Sharia ordinances. Very similar to the way some housing divisions today have a community board that enforces the standards upon the resident land owners. It would be acceptable to all Muslim residents, but I doubt many Non-Muslims would choose to move in.

[north_malaysian]

In Malaysia, Sharia Court could not impose death punishment.

Thus, when a person (who is a born Muslim) decides to leave Islam he/she has to apply to the Sharia Court in order to cease practicing Islam.

Usually these apostates have to undergo years of rehab in the Pusat Pemulihan Akidah (Faith Rehabilititation Centre)... before he/she could officially be a non-Muslim. Until today, i never heard of anyone became Non-Muslims after the rehab.

Because it's hard to be declared as Non Muslims, many go to Civil Court to obtain an order to be a Non Muslim, some just go to National Registration Department and change their religious status stated on their ID Card.

I think only 10% of the apostates managed to be declared leaving Islam officially (mostly converts who converting Islam because of marriage and decide to leave Islam after the failure of the marriage).

It's a very sensitive issue in Malaysia. But in the last 15 years more than 80,000 people converted Islam and the number leaving Islam is smaller...

[- Qatada -]

Hey. :)


I think its a part of christianity also:

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

I know you dont have the intention of attacking Islaam, but i just want to clarify that it's not only Islaam.


PS: You might also find this beneficial: Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^People seem to really overlook that and give some other pointless reasons. Doesn't matter what reason one gives, its still there.

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

I've heard stories of bad things happening to Muslims who change religions, like the man in Afganistan who converted to Christianity being put on trial. ....

why bother aboout temporary reward/punishment ? the most imp matter is the life hereafter. So, it does not matter if bad or good things happened to those who left Islam or not .

As a Muslim , i believe , permanent hot seats are waiting for them if they don't repent & don't come back to the path of God.

To my knowledge , there is no death penalty if ex-Muslim does not do anything openly to harm other Muslims or bash Islam openly. As long as s/he is not harful for the society , there is no punishment .

I don't know what the Afghan man did openly & why after so many years ( as a sis pointed out that he left Islam long long ago ) , Taliban wanted to punish him .

In my country , Chrisitian missionaries are very active mainly in rural & hill districts . Surely many Muslims became Christians here. I read that many young men did that to get US , UK visa , many did that to get a good job , free med service etc , etc. I have not heard of any single punishment .

When people are poor & Govt can't help them , i guess , they must not punish them also as they are not doing any harmful things publicly.

we may pray for them that they will give much importance on the life hereafter & will come back to us :)

[Hemoo]

in Sahih Bukhary (also mentioned in Sahih Muslim):
Volumn 009, Book 083, Hadith Number 017.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah : Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas (punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
-----------------------------------------

it is also important to say that this verdict only applies on the one who was a muslim before being an apostate.

but the non-muslim who never was a muslim and he is peacefull and do not attack the muslims, then it is prohibited to kill him as it is mentioned in this hadith in Sahih Bukhary:

Volumn 009, Book 083, Hadith Number 049.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Amr : The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)."

and i read a Fatwa for one scholar say the following :

"The kaafirs who are protected by sharee’ah (laws of islam) are of three types:
1 – Al-dhimmi. This is one with whom we have a contract or treaty of al-dhimmah (i.e., one who lives in a Muslim state)
2 – Al-mu’aahad. This is one with whose people we have a peace treaty.
2 – Al-musta’man. This is one who has entered the Muslim land and has been guaranteed safety, such as those who come to do business, to work, to visit relatives, and so on."

and here is a Fatwa from islamqa.com:

Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20327&ln=eng

and for some details about apostacy rulings in islam

Some of the rulings on apostasy and apostates
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng

[Sunnih]

I've heard stories of bad things happening to Muslims who change religions, like the man in Afganistan who converted to Christianity being put on trial. So, what happens to Muslims who leave Islam, and what would you do if someone in your family stopped being a Muslim? I am not trying to promote criticizm of Islam, as Christianity has in the past persecuted many for their religious beliefs, and I know former Christians who's families no longer speak to them. What I'm trying to do is learn more about the Muslim attitude towards religious choices. Thanks.

Perhaps the reason is specified in Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

[August]

Perhaps the reason is specified in Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

This has been pointed out. However, it has been centuries since someone was forcibly evicted from a majority Christian country just for leaving Christianity.

[Woodrow]

This has been pointed out. However, it has been centuries since someone was forcibly evicted from a majority Christian country just for leaving Christianity.

Does that mean they have altered the teachings of Christianity?

[Sunnih]

This has been pointed out. However, it has been centuries since someone was forcibly evicted from a majority Christian country just for leaving Christianity.

This only means two things:

1) The christians have abandoned the law as the brother mentioned.

2) No christian ever left christianity during these late centuries.

If it is the first then it does not benefit you as it is abandonment of the law and such the one guilty for such is the one who abandons the law (i.e. christians) not the one who establishes the law (i.e. muslims).

If it is the second, then the christian stand is the same as the muslim stand therefore again there is no transgression by the muslims. Indeed it says in the bible:

"If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend--saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known. . . . Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

[August]

So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.

[Sunnih]

So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.

It perfectly matches christianity in this matter. If the west has nothing in common with Judaism, Christianity and Islam then it is the west that should check it's status not the other way around. After all are not the majority of the west from these religions? Let me ask the question the other way around: Can the west coexist with any religion (Judaism, Christianity and Islam)?

[- Qatada -]

So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.

Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?

[Sunnih]

Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?

Brother. I suppose that if any did such, the answer from Jesus would be as in luke 19:27

27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Although this is not the very western concept right?

[August]

Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?

I'm not saying that leaving the true religion is OK. If someone stopped being a Christian, I would tell them that they were making the wrong decision. But I would not stop talking to them and I wouldn't want them kicked out of the country.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^No one is saying to kick them out. But if the person is a threat to the country or community and was affecting how you or others thought about the particular faith, would you still want the person to be there?

[August]

^^No one is saying to kick them out. But if the person is a threat to the country or community and was affecting how you or others thought about the particular faith, would you still want the person to be there?

If they're a threat to the country or community, then it has nothing to do with religion and becomes a public safety issue. However, if all they have are different ideas about religion, then I have no problem with them being there. We need to be strong enough in our faith to encounter different ideas without abandoning God.

[Woodrow]

If they're a threat to the country or community, then it has nothing to do with religion and becomes a public safety issue. However, if all they have are different ideas about religion, then I have no problem with them being there. We need to be strong enough in our faith to encounter different ideas without abandoning God.

True and in an Islamic country an Apostate can be a threat to the country. The degree of punishment inflicted upon the person will be in accordance to how much of a threat they are.

It is very difficult to prove apostasy unless a person is doing some very overt anti-Islamic acts.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Thats what I meant.

You seem to be missing the point August. Unless the person is a major threat as in bashing Islam or anything else, no harm comes to them.

[August]

Unless the person is a major threat as in bashing Islam or anything else, no harm comes to them.

How is "bashing Islam" a major threat? I know all kinds of people who bash Christianity that are not threats to anyone.

[Hemoo]

what do you think about someone who is blaspheming the creator ?

will you say thay we should leave him do it because he is not causing any harm to the society !!!!

[August]

what do you think about someone who is blaspheming the creator ?

will you say thay we should leave him do it because he is not causing any harm to the society !!!!

I disagree with someone who blasphemes the creator, of course. However, I live in a society in which freedom of religion is protected for everyone, including atheists. The US was founded in part by people who came to the new world to flee religious persecution. Also, I was once a very loud atheist. If my Christian family had refused to speak to me or if I had been made to leave my country, I would never have become a Christian myself.

[جوري]

Being a traitor to the Unites states Govt. is punishable by death -- do you remember Julius and Ethel Rosenberg ? Well that is just the Untied States "barbaric laws"... So I'd not comment much on the ones decreed by G-D for traitors to religion .

peace!

[Pygoscelis]

How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?

[- Qatada -]

How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?

Because when the number of Muslims was growing in the Islamic state in Madinah, there were a group of people who wanted to lead others astray, and to make them doubt their religion. So what they would do is pretend to accept Islaam one day, then come back the next day saying that they've left it - this would then weaken the believers who were new to the faith, and it was a good way to spread propaganda.

Therefore a hypocrite is much worse than a non muslim living in an Islamic State, since this person is causing internal conflict compared to a non-muslim who is outwardly staying neutral, or outwardly expressing his/her opposition to Islaam.


And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Regards.

[جوري]

How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?

How is a citizen selling their home country's secrets a threat, more than commis and American haters else where? it is a breech of allegiance by hypocrites... to betray your country I think is a lesser crime than betraying G-D-- yet here we are-- these are the laws of the lands... and those are the laws of the divine. . ..

Great reply Bros Fi

:w:

[- Qatada -]

Okay ^ now please create a new thread if you want to start that discussion. :) Thankyou.

[جوري]

Fear is a powerful motivational tool.

indeed no different than "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" Roosevelt

That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members.

right again-- no different than mao (Z)xedong tyranny leading to the death of 15 million peasants (communism)

Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men..

These are certainly fundamentals but not the crux of the religion... you are no theologian-- you are an atheist... I fail to see an honest unbiased in depth analysis...

The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance)

I don't see anything wrong with mandatory charity-- no different than state tax-- What hypocrisy in exalting man-made laws even if they were to let the demise of millions, or rob many of their freedom-- yet have the audacity to point the finger at religion...

educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine).

let's see the contrary then..

and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice

What is the point here? What is the point of existence if there is no culmination and consequence or any form of justice?

all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies).

indeed.. Islam is here to perfect the qualities of the righteous--
G-D dictating the psychology and morality of man I believe to be more noble than Rupert Murdoch vis a vis Fox news--- happy letting loads of empty vessels imbue loads of bull ranging "freedom fries" to freedom toast to echo hateful sentiment and to evoke that some significance and value to come out of patriotism-- even at the price of human life-- that is what I call brain washing en masse

[Sunnih]

Fear is a powerful motivational tool. That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members. Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men. The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance), educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies).

Let me start by saying that any religion is composed of two major principles.

1)Beliefs

2) Laws

In this respect even atheism is a religion of it's own whether you like it or not as even the atheists have their set of beliefs such as the denial of the existance of God, implying that there was never a messenger sent, inexistance of divine scriptures, inexistance of angels and so on. Also they too have a set of rules which in their view represent the fundamental basics to be followed whether they are derived from themselves or borrowed. So no one escapes following a religion whether they accept it or not and whether they call it a religion or a way of life or whatever it is.

You say that: "Fear is a powerful motivational tool.That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members".

I say, true and false at the same time. As far as the true part, then you will not fail to see such a motivation at everyone whether a believer or not as in it's broad sense fear is of two types:1) Fear of what you hate to befall to you 2) Fear of loosing what you have of what you like and appreciate. In these premises fear is indeed a motivation tool.

However, this notion is false when it is taken in it's absolute sense as you have put it when it comes and relates to muslims. This is because this kind of fear is fatalism, and fatalism is prohibited in Islam. Indeed it is one of the major sins that a muslim fears God to the point of desparing of His mercy. Therefore if fear was what was sought in and of itself then this is not the fear that God wants you to have towards Him. This is well explained throughout the Qur'an and I will only mention here two verses that explain the reality of the mater.

The first is the very first verse in the Qur'an which says: "In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful". The other verse I will mention is the verse that does encompass all people, believers and disbelievers, it says: "Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful" (39:53).

You said: "Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men".

I say: As for the heaven and hell, it is a piece of information regarding the final abodes of people. It is not as you put it as if it was such, then what was explained by the Prophet would not mention that the transgressing sining believers will not abide eternally in hell. At one point they will come out of hell provided that they did not fall into idolatory.

as for: "the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape", it is not true when it comes to Islam as God and His Prophet indeed have told us that Islam does not deny the fact that man was created weak and that it can fall into temptation, and this is one of the reasons why repentance is accepted from all, indeed from the disbelievrs too. Our Prophet said: "If you did not sin at all, Allah would remove all of you and would bring other people in your place who would sin and would repent from sin".

Now as to what constitutes sin, not only the textual proofs but also the unadulterated thinking and mind agree. I know that you will take the position to say that disbelieving is not a sin in you view and as I am not trying to make you accept my oppinion I will not delve into this matter (perhaps if you like we can open another thread where we can talk about this, later on).

However, you will not fail to agree with me transgression in relation to the other fellow beings is wrong whether you like to call it sin or something else. Now if you were to dissagree with this too (and I do not believe that) then a question is raised for you: "What is right, and what is wrong. Where does the right begin and where it stops. Where does the wrong begins and where it stops. What is the criterion to distinguish between the two?!".

as for: "the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men", this is the wrong concept towards Islam and muslims as such does not constitute what we believe and what we take as our religion. If you want we can elaborate on that in another thread.

You said: "The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance), educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies)".

I say: First this is confirmation of what I said as to what constitutes a religion and this principle is valid also on the way you have chosen to follow upon the principles and beliefs that you have chosen to follow.

Second: This is completely wrong when you apply them to islam and if you want to take examples of your chosing we can show to you that indeed this principle does not characterise islam. (I only mentioned islam as I am a muslim and speak from a muslim's point of view).

I hope that you really reflect on this issue with a balanced view and indeed your intelect will not fail to see that the understanding that you have toward islam is not accurate. I do not blame you as media and other than them do play a major role in distorting and missinterpreting islam whether by design or accident.

[جوري]

in contrast to the thread... I thought I'd post what happens when you are caught spying as imposed by the laws of the civilized U.S ... Apparently "attempting to transmit govt secrets, is as bad as betraying your allegiance to G-D--- Gasp!

"The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951, and on April 5 were sentenced to death by Judge Irving Kaufman under section 2 of the Espionage Act, 50 U.S. Code 32 (now 18 U.S. Code 794), which prohibits transmitting or attempting to transmit to a foreign government information "relating to the national defense." The conviction helped to fuel Senator Joseph McCarthy's investigations into anti-American activities by U.S. citizens. While their devotion to the Communist cause was well documented, the Rosenbergs denied the espionage charges even as they faced the electric chair.


http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...enb/ROSENB.HTM

[Pygoscelis]

Just once and for all, so I don't leave this thread with any misunderstandings -

Islam actually tells you to kill apostates or not?

[جوري]

Just once and for all, so I don't leave this thread with any misunderstandings -

Islam actually tells you to kill apostates or not?

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html

By: Ansar Al-'Adl
Administrator
In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

From another of my posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Quote:
Originally Posted by blunderbus
If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?

As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here (My view on muslims) and here (Islam and Apostasy). It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


__________________




there you go... am sure the link if not the above post will suffice to answer all your Q's

peace!

[Joe98]

Hey. :)
I think its a part of christianity also:

No, you are mistaken.

If a person acts badly the Pope can discommmunicate a person from the church.

This means a person cannot partake in the sacraments of the church.

In other words the Pope can kick someone out of the church. Who then will punish the person for leaving the church?

-

[Amadeus85]

As i understood , islam is not just a faith but also a law and a political system. Thats why leaving this is seen as a betray and punished by death.
And that is why islamic laws are so hard to co - exist in non islamic countries.

[جوري]

As i understood , islam is not just a faith but also a law and a political system. Thats why leaving this is seen as a betray and punished by death.
And that is why islamic laws are so hard to co - exist in non islamic countries.

How so? obviously Islamic laws can't be enforced on non-Muslims or in a non-Islamic state...

the link I provided in the previous page is by a scholar and is very comprehensive... otherwise, we are all handing out opinions... And there is certainly no shortage of dynamos of hyperbole's on board!

peace!

[جوري]

By bros Ansar Al 'Adl-- first regarding the fact that there are no (islamic states today) and second part discusses the rights of non-muslims under Islamic states as mandated by Islamic law.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...mic-state.html

First- the statement that there are no Islamic states in existence today is not merely a claim. It is a fact that there is no country today that is implementing the Sharî'ah accurately and in its entirety. This is most notably visible in the absence of khilâfa, the Islamic political system of governance. In order to assess anyone's beliefs or actions from the Islamic perspective we need to go back to the original sources of Islamic law, the conclusions of which are summarized in the points found in the original post. The actions of any group or indvidual can only be attributed to their religion if it can objectively be demonstrated that such actions have explicit basis in the religious sources.

Second - Muslims need to start with educational reform in order to spread knowledge of the authentic Islamic teachings. Only then can we hope to move in the direction of correct and complete implementation of Islamic law.

Third - from the aforementioned points it should be clear that there is a definite purpose to be served spreading knowledge of the islamic laws in this regard, and it is not idle talk of a fanstasy 'utopia'. It is ironic that when misinformation is spread that paints Islamic law as unjust, no one complains but when accurate information is spread concerning the Islamic teachings, it is dismissed as a pointless discussion of a utopia! Rather, it is crucial for us to spread the accurate information about Islamic teachings if there is to be any positive reform in the Muslim Ummah. Our situation will not improve until Muslims return to their religion and begin practicing again.

Fourth - It is so easy to look at the problems around the world and throw all the blame on people's religious beliefs. It is not as easy to take an objective look at the situation and analyze the complex array of socioeconomic and geopolitical factors involved. But that is precisely what needs to be done.

Regards

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

One point and one point only.
Dont call it Islamic! My God...having only some islamic laws doesnt make it islamic cuz half the time it's established incorrectly. Im sick of the ignorance on this forum. So much info availabe yet we still have idiocy. Get the facts straight please.

[جوري]

He isn't here to learn... and we have been more than hospitable...I hope they give him the boot soon.

:w:

[جوري]

people often use statistics to try to prove two different sides of the same issue Chances are if you start up with a particular bias, you will end up finding exactly what you are looking for. No big mystery here---when you provoke, and have presupposed expectations-- you'll get a predictable reaction... you reap what you sow!

[جوري]

yourself!

[جوري]

what sort of fallacy is this?

[Woodrow]

Let’s suppose that’s true, your first sentence, – and I’m not convinced it is. What good are excuses?

We live in a reality, not in a mythical world you would like to be true. The second class status of the dhimmi is nothing new in an Islamic state. Why would anyone believe your mythical Islamic state would be different.

Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Interesting.

Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Perhaps you have failed to notice that there are more than one or 2 non-Muslim who we disagree with strongly. Yet, We have very high respect for them and appreciate their views. Do you think it may be because they know how to agree to disagree?

It may be that it is not your views that are objectionable, but your presentation may leave something to be desired.

[Hemoo]

Egypt actively discriminates against Christianity

i live in egypt and what you said just shows how much are you being deceived by your media because here in egypt christians have more privileges conserning their religious practices than muslims and i will till you some examples.

first
an egyption christian preacher who currently lives outside egypt, his name is Zakariya Botros, this man is attacking islam and mocking the muslims and he gives lectures through a sattelite channel in which he lies and misquote from islamic sources to decieve his audiences.

then an egyption scholar named Abd Allah Badr made a series of lectures to make responces to what this christian man is saying with giving evidences and conclusive arguments and after he made about 6 lectures, the egyption government took him to jail with the accusation of making a corruption in the relationship between muslims and christiansfor just defending his faith.

so the christian one gets away while the muslim one is still currently in jail.

another story someone told me which happened in egypt:
in a bus there was a bearded muslim and another christian also with a beard and a moustache, then some police officers stopped the bus and told the muslim to come with them (just for being a bearded muslim) then the muslim man said : why only me ,this man is bearded two and i will not come with you unless you take him (the christian man) too. then the officer hesitated a little and then told the bus to go on and no one was taken to interrogation, not the muslim nor the christian because this officer feared that he may be accused by christians (with the back up of outside ountries such as America) of being an sectarian or a non-muslims enemy.

besides if you visit egypt you will find a lot of churches being build inspite the low numbers of christians in the country

the bottom line is christians are having so much freedom in this country but they keep showing otherwise through your unhonest medias as a blackmailing to the egyption government.

and i almost forgot to tell you about how the christians are practicing christianization freely in the universities in egypt and they have done a bit of an effort in the last book exhibition also in egypt.

and if you want further evidences of what i said i can give you more.

and about the other countries, i think we will need someone from these countries to show you how misleaded are you.

the list goes on.

yes indeed, your lies list is going on & on; that i wish that after a long time it will eventually runs out.

[Pygoscelis]

Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Actually I disagree. I am not only atheistic but anti-religous, and most of the muslims here have been very friendly towards me since I've been here. Only two (out of at least 30) have been outwardly rude, and even they haven't hostile to the point of really concerning me (they just look like dolts). But you get that on any message board with any ideology, even baseball. Don't let a couple nutters distort your view of the whole.

[- Qatada -]

Ruggedtouch, if you really get so much people attacking you via PM, why not ask the mods and they'll try to see what's going on? No-ones stopping you. Because its against forum rules to start 'beef' with anyone anyway.


Regards.

[Woodrow]

I don’t believe anything will inflame passions more than religious discussions… well… maybe except for European soccer.

While I appreciate your comments, I’ve seen precisely the opposite. You should see my PM inbox. You would think that it’s been handed over to a bunch of European soccer fans and drunken sailors on shore leave.

We do not approve of anyone using the PM system for personal attacks against any member. If this is done Please forward the offending PMs to any Mod.

[Hemoo]

You provide no sources for your claims. I suspect there's a reason why.

It’s possible that you may have missed this article, then.
Muslims battle Christians in Egypt

again you speek without having the knowledge, you don't even live in egypt, you don't even watch the arabic channels to see what is really going on on these countries.

i have seen in Dream channel (which is considered a liberate one or atleast it may be controled by the government) a man who belongs to the human rights here in egypt, he was presenting the reports that shows how many innocent muslims are currently in jail, they are in jail even after they got the court's verdict of their innocance of any crime.

so don't you tell me about christians having bad times in egypt.

you only read the news that other people translated, so clever indeed ?!

and here is an arabic link about bearded muslims being taken to coustady and then letting them out after crude interrogation.

http://www.azzaman.com/index.asp?fna...htm&storytitle

& here

http://www.almesryoon.com/ShowDetail...D=33586&Page=1

and i have a part of a play made my christians inwich they mock the muslims and the religion of islam, if you want it i can send it to you and i can send to you the full text of this disgraceful play made by christians and played in the churches.

so what do you know about it.and who is mocking who ?

i have a recorded audio of christian man threatining that he will kill every muslim if he got the chance of being a leader.

and by the way the link you gave needs registration.

[Hemoo]

and here is a link from some students of Shiekh Abd Allah Badr who are telling what happened to him. and that he is currently in jail just for defending his religion.

it is an arabic forum and you will need to register in it (if you can understand a thing in arabic language)
http://www.muslm.net/vb/showthread.php?t=166864

and i also have a video file of one of the egyption christian priests named Morkos Aziz and he is mocking the governmetal policies but no one took him to jail and the Government did not hurt him for what he said.

and for you to know the oppression made on any christian who chooses to convert to islam read this story about Wafaa` Qustantine, after she converted to islam the christians then made a huge propaganda and said that she was kidnapped by muslims but then she gave some statments to the press to say that she really wants to be a muslim.

http://hemo3d.awardspace.com/Asite/articl/hda/c/c33.htm

and after you read the story (if you can read it),here is other sources that assures what you read and it says that the christians forced Sister Wafaa` to come again to christianity. which is against her will.

here is the Full story in arabic

and i have a video of two former christian women who have converted to islam and they are telling the opression made by their families on them after converting.

and the list is indeed very long.

so from what you read you will realize how the egyption christians do all means necessary(even lying and fabrication of stories and using the principle of the cause justifies the means )to be able to gain more immunity than public muslims and for them to be able to act as they want without the government ask them why or how you did it .

and more links to post (all in arabic):

1-christian organizations call to disrupt after an egyption christian nun converts to islam
http://www.islammemo.cc/article1.aspx?id=9748

2-christian missionary christianizes poor muslims in egypt by the name of charity
http://www.islammemo.cc/article1.aspx?id=19010

and if you want more links just ask for it and atleast try to learn from both sides so that no one can trick and deceive you.

[KAding]

Actually I disagree. I am not only atheistic but anti-religous, and most of the muslims here have been very friendly towards me since I've been here. Only two (out of at least 30) have been outwardly rude, and even they haven't hostile to the point of really concerning me (they just look like dolts). But you get that on any message board with any ideology, even baseball. Don't let a couple nutters distort your view of the whole.

I agree. I came to the same conclusion. It's an interesting observation really, the holy scriptures are in general a whole lot more aggressive and rude than most believers.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

the holy scriptures are in general a whole lot more aggressive and rude than most believers.

Come again? If it were not for my beautiful religion, I wouldnt be half of who I am today. And considering how lovely my faith is, I cannot compare my errors with it.

[Pygoscelis]

the holy scriptures are in general a whole lot more aggressive and rude than most believers.

Absolutely.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

It's an interesting observation really, the holy scriptures are in general a whole lot more aggressive and rude than most believers.

Not with Islam, mate.

Anywho back to the topic:
Apostacy has been discussed MANY times, just search for it on this board. I seriously cannot be asked to give the ruling out since:
A) I do indeed have a life that takes priority over internet forums.
B) When I do give the ruling, noone flipping listens anyways.
C) Don't be lazy, just click on the search function (yes we do have one, and yes it does work) and type in ''apostacy in Islam'' - there are atleast 3 considerably large threads relating/discussing it.

So really, this thread should be locked.

[Pygoscelis]

I think the question gets asked in this section so often because the answer is disturbing to those outside the faith and perhaps to new converts as well. And attempts to make it less disturbing are attempts to take it outside the established and cherished dogma and thus others resist it. I think you can expect to see this question come up again and again, each time new members come to the site (both muslim and nonmuslim).

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

I think the question gets asked in this section so often because the answer is disturbing to those outside the faith and perhaps to new converts as well. And attempts to make it less disturbing are attempts to take it outside the established and cherished dogma and thus others resist it. I think you can expect to see this question come up again and again, each time new members come to the site (both muslim and nonmuslim).

I accept that fully. It does get really annoying though.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Wll it happened in my famly...well almost

We found out and simply told them,never come here again..

They are ostracized and kicked out of every social function.

me and my family are not moderate muslim,we follow the Quran and Sunnah.

They alhamdulilah came back before they were baptised,and told us all that they did.

We told them then welcome back.
But asked them to learn more of Islam...and no longer be deviant..

[Pygoscelis]

Who are you referring to? Are these brothers and sisters? Cousins?

One thing I'm curious about, is if part of the rational is that you don't want them poisoning the well so to speak, then why do you come / create a section on a board that explicitly invites non-muslim, or even anti-muslim (is Kafir the appropriate word, or an insult (I hear anti muslims using this word a lot in an unkind way)) views? Should you not shelter yourself from this as well?

[- Qatada -]

The word kaafir means disbeliever, and it also means to be ungrateful.



Regards.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The word kaafir means disbeliever, and it also means to be ungrateful.



Regards.

does it also mean to cover up?


regards :p

[wilberhum]

Meanwhile, back on topic:

Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle510589.ece

While Christians who turn to Islam are feted, the 200,000 Muslims who turn away are faced with abuse, violence and even murder

An interesting article. A good read for all, especially those that support taking adverse action against apostates.

[- Qatada -]

How about you quote where it says that a person should be abused if they leave Islaam? :?

[wilberhum]

How about you quote where it says that a person should be abused if they leave Islaam? :?

You can quote Islam.
I will quote Muslims.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Doesnt mean its what Islam teaches. There is a difference. Islam is perfection, humans are not.

[Joe98]

Salaam,

Wll it happened in my famly...well almost

We found out and simply told them,never come here again..

They are ostracized and kicked out of every social function.

Why would you do this? How does that action agree with the Koran?

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Qur'an 2:256

-

[wilberhum]

^^Doesnt mean its what Islam teaches. There is a difference. Islam is perfection, humans are not.

Would you please point out where I said any thing about what Islam teaches?
But then who determines what Islam teaches?

[Abdul Fattah]

Would you please point out where I said any thing about what Islam teaches?
But then who determines what Islam teaches?

The easiest and most correct answer would be Allah subhana wa ta'ala determines :)
But I guess you meant to ask, how do we know which is real and which is false.
Well, we have the Qur'an and the hadeeth for that.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I never assumed you said that. Jeez where you grabbin these words from? You want to quote Muslims because its what they do, so im telling you it doesnt mean Islam teaches it. I can say that as much as i like. why? cuz its true! the Qur'an(Allah) determine whats right and wrong. Not imperfect human beings.

[Zulkiflim]

Why would you do this? How does that action agree with the Koran?

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Qur'an 2:256

-

Salaam,

We dont not force people into the religion but when a loved one leave then it is different.

Or any person who claims to be muslim but leaves then he is alone in out sight.

If there is a cancer in your body you shoiuld cut it out,,so we do and did and will Inshallah..

[Zulkiflim]

Meanwhile, back on topic:

Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle510589.ece



An interesting article. A good read for all, especially those that support taking adverse action against apostates.

Salaam

Do not worry such peorple will get their due in this world and the next.

Inshallah,they choose fire instead of water.

[wilberhum]

Salaam

Do not worry such peorple will get their due in this world and the next.

Inshallah,they choose fire instead of water.

I think they chose what was most logical to them. :skeleton:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I think they chose what was most logical to them. :skeleton:

no, they chose what they felt like and fed their lust.

If your staunch on your disbelief now then without a doubt there was a day when you pondered if there really was a God but your sins grew and grew so now to you logic states that the existence of God is as likely as flyingspeggetiblah :rollseyes but theres others who have always been trying their best to control their desires holding back on wordly pleasures, doing things for the sake of God and to those people whos hearts God has allowed to remain pure, logic clearly states that there is a God and to say otherwise is foolish.

[Pygoscelis]

Logic tells one person one thing, and another person something else? Given the same data? That doesn't make sense.

Maybe if we have different data it would. Like if God appeared to you in person (ie, more than just a feeling and a holy book - an actual personal encounter) and not to me.

But otherwise, I think its a matter of priorities, pressures, and programming.

[August]

There is room for what is or is not logical to be debated. If someone leaves Islam, and becomes a Jew, they aren't denying God. They aren't "feeding their lust." They are trying to honor God in the way they think is best. We can argue about whether or not they are right, but their intentions are good.
I find it incredibly disturbing that people who leave Islam must fear for their lives. I don't know if this says more about Islam or more about the cultures of certain countries, but it doesn't give me much hope for future peaceful co-existence.
I find this issue important because I have made a similar switch with no repercussions. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family and was taught that Catholics are going to hell. When I was 20, I converted to Catholicism. My family was unhappy with it, but they have not disowned me or treated me any differently at all. Muslims should do the same.

[- Qatada -]

But isn't that going against your religious scripture and beliefs?


Besides - the person who leaves Islaam does so either out of ignorance, or out of rebellion. The person has the right to ask any questions which he/she is unsure about, and they will be clarified and answered in detail for them. And the praise is for God/Allaah that Islaam makes total sense and is logical. Also - the punishment can only be applied within an Islamic State and no-one can apply the punishment except as a last resort, and this is done by the judge.


And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

[Umar001]

I find this issue important because I have made a similar switch with no repercussions. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family and was taught that Catholics are going to hell. When I was 20, I converted to Catholicism. My family was unhappy with it, but they have not disowned me or treated me any differently at all. Muslims should do the same.

I don't want to get involved in the meat of the thread, but the underlined statement caught my eye.

I will thus ask, why should Muslims do the same?

The reason I ask is that, if Islam is the right religion then they should go by it, if it teaches the death of apostates then it's logical that they should go by that on the same hand if another religion is right then the followers should go by what they are commanded. That is how I understand it, so the above statement would indicate to me that you think Muslims should do what the Christians done because if Islam teaches death to apostates it's wrong?

[Pygoscelis]

I just had a post deleted by Al Habeshi, trying to answer the above question he/she posed. No reason was given for the censorship and the point is an important one so I'll try to rephrase.

That is how I understand it, so the above statement would indicate to me that you think Muslims should do what the Christians done because if Islam teaches death to apostates it's wrong?

Yes, that is exactly what I think. If this is the message you are getting, that people should be killed for switching away from your beliefs, then that message is very very wrong. Religion should not be used to justify homocide. And when it is, I like the person you quoted am left worrying about any chance of peaceful co-existence.

[Pygoscelis]

Oh wait, my apologies to Habeshi, it appears my post was not deleted (I stand corrected) but moved? It showed up in another thread. Weird.

[Umar001]

Maybe this thread has continued long enough. The orginal aim was to know would happen to a Muslim who left Islam.

Maybe I made a mistake of delving into trying to understand points and questioning and so forth, which in turn led answers on whether Morality is to be taken from God without any apparent attachment to the topic, rather a more general aspect. Where as I felt that it would have been ok for me to pose the question to August since it was interwined with the topic, i.e. apostacy.

But anyhow,

Pygoscelis I see you have posted a reply, I think that your reply is interesting and what I expected, and I have yet to await August's reply and see whether she would reply similarly.

And Pygoscelis I apologise for any confusion but I hope you kind of see what I meant, anyhow, at least now I know people think that I would censure others when I cant handle their arguements, man I gotta change that prespective of me. But no need to apologise ;)

Regards,

Eesa

[August]

I will thus ask, why should Muslims do the same?

Because that is ultimately the only way we can coexist. As a Christian, I can't regard Muslim nations that do this kind of thing as legitimate, because they are not respecting freedom of thought and religious expression, which I view as a necessity for democracy. It also brings into question just how much immigration from Muslims we can allow into the US, if they refuse to respect the constitutional rights of their fellow Muslims, rights that include leaving Islam. I know they aren't supposed to use violence to stop people from leaving Islam, but it happens all too often.

[wilberhum]

no, they chose what they felt like and fed their lust.

Lust? :? There is no indication of that.

BTW I though only Allah could judge. Did you get a promotion? :skeleton:

[wilberhum]

Besides - the person who leaves Islaam does so either out of ignorance, or out of rebellion.

Isn't that the stance of every religion? :?

[- Qatada -]

Isn't that the stance of every religion? :?

No, :) because some religions don't make sense whereas Islaam does alhamdulillah (the praise is for Allaah.)

So the person either leaves out of ignorance [i.e. most people who leave islaam are the people who have little knowledge about the religion and may have heard misconceptions so they leave without looking into the true explanation/teaching] or they do it out of rebellion [i.e. they do so because the truth is clear, yet they don't want to submit themselves to God.]

[wilberhum]

[QUOTE=Fi_Sabilillah;741335]No, :) because some religions don't make sense whereas Islaam does alhamdulillahQUOTE]
Again the same stance as everyone else. They are wrong because a, b, c ........... we are right because of 1, 2, 3............... Da de da and tra la ls.
Agnostics are the only ones that make sence. :thumbs_up

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Again the same stance as everyone else. They are wrong because a, b, c ........... we are right because of 1, 2, 3............... Da de da and tra la ls.

Don't mind if I use that as my reply too :D

[wilberhum]

Don't mind if I use that as my reply too :D

Please do, it is the most logical. :D
Also, it isn't the one that every one else uses. :thumbs_up

[Woodrow]

This thread has reached the end of any usefull debate.

:threadclo



Reopened by request

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

You can quote Islam.
I will quote Muslims.

i can give u many examples where ex-Christians ( new Muslims ) came under torture .

Christians threw bomb on the ex-Priest home & his kid died. No one bashes Jesus (p) or Christianity because of it . So , no one should put blame on Islam if Muslims do any wrong.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Just once and for all, so I don't leave this thread with any misunderstandings -

Islam actually tells you to kill apostates or not?

yes & no :)


yes if they spread hatred against God , try to harm Muslims , create unrest in the society etc.

NO if they follow their new religion peacefully & don't try to create unrest among Muslims/ agaisnt Muslims .

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Salaam,

Wll it happened in my famly...well almost

We found out and simply told them,never come here again..

..

a question came in to mind . If we abandon our ex-Muslim family members , then they won't have any choice but to mix with non-Muslims more.

Should not we try our best to bring them back home & teach them more about Islam ?

[wilberhum]

http://www.islamicity.com/graphics/BLRR.gif

Salaam/peace ,




i can give u many examples where ex-Christians ( new Muslims ) came under torture .

Christians threw bomb on the ex-Priest home & his kid died. No one bashes Jesus (p) or Christianity because of it . So , no one should put blame on Islam if Muslims do any wrong.

I only blame those that do wrong. I don't remember saying anything about Mohammad.

[barney]

It is very difficult to prove apostasy unless a person is doing some very overt anti-Islamic acts.

Or just saying I'm going to church now.:D

To remain predictable, I'm going to rant against "Apostacy as a crime"

Firstly, I fully understand that , currently the forcable conversion of kaffir is rare. Death for not converting isnt a big issue,(except for those Iraqi christians).

Muslims are born muslims. in this they have no choice. A catholic is born a catholic. A catholic who renounces the faith...even for another Christian sect...is excommunicated. That means theyre going to hell. Fair enough for the convert, they ditched catholicism because they diddnt beleive in it anymore, so the old pope waving his arms about and promising the lakes of fire wont worry them. They are happy to take that chance knowing that in their new religion or in their agnosticism/ athieism, they will find whatever spiritual path beckons.
The Spanish inquisition hgwever had a problem. The Catholics were leaving in droves and hell after death diddnt have the same deterence that it used to.
Simple to solve. They would hasten Gods judgement by burning the apostates of Catholosism alive. Puritanical England did the same.

So these medieval insitutions practiced exactly what Islam practices now.
The Torture rack of the inquisition saved many sinners before their deaths from the eternal flame by illiciting confessions from them that they might go straight up to heaven rather than hell.

A child is unaware of religion at birth. They cant make the choice until they develop the cognative skills to think independantly. (I wont go into religions built in aversion and coercion against independent thought). However, when a choice has to be made through personal conviction of the individual, what does their religion have to say on the matter?

Well a Muslim growing up, lets say he is a teenager, he has attended the mosque every day brought by his family. He has listened to thousands of sermons. he is fully aware of the penalty for apostacy. he is finally ready and mature enough to make his own Decision. But he cant.

He may live in the west. He risks a honour killing (unlikely) or beating ( likely). He risks being shunned by not only his family, but by his community. He would be surely better off just plodding along, going through the motions. What if he wanted to show his new found faith in another religion...heck...even worse in none at all?

He may live in the Sudan. Spiritually he may totally disagree with what he has been taught and have the courage to stand up for this. Courage or stupidity? He has just bought himself what the dissenters to the spanish Inquisition bought. Death for disbeleif.

Apostacy makes a mockery of the words there is no compulsion in religion. Theres no compulsion to join, at the moment, mainly, (unless you read Bin-liner and Ahmadinerjads pleas to the west to convert to Islam in order to be safe). But if your in the club, your not getting out easily. you are compelled to stay.

Treason against God? Yup, thats exactly what the Inquisition said. What the Crusaders said. And its part of Islamic law.

[Skavau]

In an Islamic Country, such as Afghanistan it must be remembered that Islam is part of every aspect of life. It is not just your religion it is your citizenship. To convert from Islam is treason to your country and can/will be treated as treason. It goes beyond the simple leaving a religion. Those laws do not apply to non-Muslims living in those countries.

Redefining killing someone for leaving a religion to treason does not justify the act. Apostates of Islam merely change their view on a religion and a more reasonable example would be to equate it to giving up citizenship of a certain nation. In no state I can think of is that equatable for death and if it was it would not be morally right.

Leaving Islam is not only treason to the country but Islam and God. We know christianity came to replace Judaism and Islam came to replace christianity as the next message to the people. A Muslim knows and believes and tesitify that there is only One God with no partners and Muhammad is the last Messenger. Based on this testimony, he is a muslim. So when he goes against his own testimony and turns away from what is the truth then he has error. We humans have treasons laws that are punishable by death, be it the west or the east. So what about the Creator of this world? It is His earth you are living on and when you do treason against Him, what right do you have to live on His land?

That is an invalid example in justifying death or punishment for apostasy because Non-Muslims do not accept your idea that God (or, at least your conception) is the creator of the universe. This is an Appeal to Authority Fallacy.

Is it also relevant that people back away from their own testimonies? Do you advocate killing apostates from Judaism or Christianity?

Anyways, the punishment is administered by the Islamic state. And before it is done, the person is given 3 days to return to Islam. In that time frame he has access to Muslim scholars or people of knowledge to clear any misunderstandings he may have developed. After 3 days, if he is still defiant then the proper punishment is administered for his treason.

Prohibition of independent thought on the basis of a religious doctrine which you believe grants you the authority to issue such power over an individual's life. This is why no religion should be under any method of authority over people's lives in a state.

There is no compulsion in Islam, and this is true. No one is forced to convert to islam, if one is forced then their acceptance is not valid and they are free to go.

And you think forcing someone under pain of punishment/death to revert back to Islam is going to be a valid re-acceptance?

To leave Islam in an Islamic country is the same thing as an American citizen denouncing his citizenship and embracing communism. that would not be seen and being very favorable, the punishments and or condemnation would depend on the severity of what a persons actions are.

Would that person in the USA get punished for embracing Communism? I doubt it.

I see more of a possibility in America for Islamic communities to pass local Sharia ordinances. Very similar to the way some housing divisions today have a community board that enforces the standards upon the resident land owners. It would be acceptable to all Muslim residents, but I doubt many Non-Muslims would choose to move in.

What is this implying? A microstate within a state?

Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.'

That is precisely what religious freedom is. You could revert to a religion where flying pixies control the Sun. It is the freedom of belief.

Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed?

A religion can be what it will. If it inflicts on a society in a negative way and endangers those with other beliefs then it becomes a problem.

Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

What is this paragraph implying?

what do you think about someone who is blaspheming the creator ?

will you say thay we should leave him do it because he is not causing any harm to the society !!!!

No society should be based on the rule of a particular religion. What you have typed above is a testament to this.

no, they chose what they felt like and fed their lust.

Evidence?

If your staunch on your disbelief now then without a doubt there was a day when you pondered if there really was a God but your sins grew and grew so now to you logic states that the existence of God is as likely as flyingspeggetiblah

So you assert that pondering about philosophy is sinful?

but theres others who have always been trying their best to control their desires holding back on wordly pleasures, doing things for the sake of God and to those people whos hearts God has allowed to remain pure, logic clearly states that there is a God and to say otherwise is foolish.

Rhetoric. People are perfectly capable of changing belief systems on the basis that they simply cannot assert a certain ideology any longer. I could pretend that I believe in a God but it wouldn't be true. I would have to convince myself.

The lack of empathy for many apostates from Islam on here is quite sad considering the fact that any apostasy from any belief system is likely to be very troublesome for the apostate.

Besides - the person who leaves Islaam does so either out of ignorance, or out of rebellion. The person has the right to ask any questions which he/she is unsure about, and they will be clarified and answered in detail for them. And the praise is for God/Allaah that Islaam makes total sense and is logical. Also - the punishment can only be applied within an Islamic State and no-one can apply the punishment except as a last resort, and this is done by the judge.

Why is it necessary to be applied at all? You cannot force a belief out of an individual. This is compulsion within Islam whether you accept it or not. You can assert that there is no compulsion in coming to Islam, but in an Islamic State according to many on here - there is compulsion in staying within the faith.

Skavau

[barney]

Oh and just adding, in victorian Britain, we used to chuck people who went against the churches teachings, say for having a child out of wedlock, into mental hospitals. Going against God must be madness, so right up to the 1930's we stuffed them full of drugs and gave them electroconvuslsive shock "treatment"

[wilberhum]

Jim Jones justified killing people that tried to leave. Not a new concept, is it?
As with any thing, there are reasons and there are excuses. Now that we have heard the excuses, I think everyone not wearing "Faith-Blinders" can see the reason. [MAD]Intolerance. [/MAD]
There is no compulsion to religion but I will kill you if you change your mind. :skeleton:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Summarised apostacy ruling = it only applies in CERTAIN circumstances e.g. in times of war, to prevent spies - not all apostates at the time of the Prophet were subject to the executions, only the one that were, on the evidence, judged to be spies. This is how the rule was ORIGINALLY used. Unfortunately, it is no longer used in this way and now we have oppression of religion in muslim countries.

I gave a summarised version because I've stated it many times on LI.

[- Qatada -]

:sl:

In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:

1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

From another of my posts:

If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?

As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.

:w:

_______

Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28