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WomanOfJihad
12-27-2004, 05:29 PM
:sl:

just thought of posting a new Topic here ... Although ..this goes especially for the sisters, but inshAllah.. wud be more interesting if the brothers could contribute their opinions as well.. JazakAllah..

As we all can c . in todays day n world ... in our Areas , in our families , Friends, Colleges, Unis , etc .. U name it .. that the Majority of Sisters dnt do Hijaab .. wat i mean by hijaab .. is to cover themselves in such a way that no others would see the hair or the body .. and it is Obvious why the sisters dnt do Hijaab .. Some may nt do it because the parents dnt like it , some may not do it because they dnt realise the Importance of Hijaab , and others dnt do it because they want to b in the centre of attention ( most common) ... Allahu Alim

through my experience ... i ve seen sisters who dnt wear hijaab ... because they dnt realise the Importance of it.. they r more wrried abt wanting to look good so they can impress other pple .. ( Astaghfirullah) .. May Allah swt save us all from this Fitnah..
Sisters dnt realise that we are soppsed to b protected coz we r precious ..but Pity we dnt REALISE how Valuable we are ...

Again i dnt blame them for wearing Hijaab.. coz its the environment theyve been brought up in.. All Westernised .. SubhanAllah .. but .. now that we all Understand what is Right n Wrong.. we shud know wat Allah swt wants us to do .. to gurad our modesty .. and not Expose it infront of the whole wrldd...

Sisters think HIJAB is a TORTURE ... WHY?? .. Simple coz they dnt want to look " DULL" according to the wrld .but Imagine HOw Happy u would make Allah swt .. SubhaNAllah.. but Pple are just too wried abt this Dunya .. this Wrld is Temporary .. WORRy abt the AAKHIRAH .. !!!!

THose who wear Hijab.. ask them how safe n Protected they feel.. they wud feel so safe n secured from the wrld ...

Thats abt it .. wud like other members to continure with this thread ....brothers n Sisters .. ur Opnions n views will be highly appreciated inshAlah..

* sorry if i have said anyfin wrong to offend any1 .. * JazakAllah
:w:
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Ummatee
12-27-2004, 06:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
subhanAlllah... feels so great looking at the jest you have for deen..May Allah make you more closer to HIM..Ameeennn..!!!
Alhamdulillah You mentioned great stuff there sister...!! But this is for the sisters who are visiting the site and dont do hijaab..
This is certainly not to provoke anybody or to offend anyone..MashAllah you just gota understand that Anyone who cares for the Prophet (s.a.w)'s words..the Qur'an and takes deen seriously and has the jazbah fr deen they will react the same as woman of jihad did..!! Woman of jihadd...you remind me of the sahabh Umar bin Al-khattab (r.a)... theur anger and their Jest for Islam .....was so Famous..MashAllah!! Anyways sisters the point is please dont be discouraged angry or disheatend...but jus keep on doing du'a to Alah subhanahu wata'ala...that HE increases all of us in deen n keep us steadfast...!!!

And as for thhose who are thnkn of convertng to islam frm experience...Praise be to Allah..I'd say one thing and final thing about HIJAAB...
"The feeling that You get when you wear it...that feeling is like an angel of protection...That stays with you wherver
you go..protects you from lustful gazes..discrimination...,and beautifies you in such a manner...Glory be to Allah..and
BY ALLAH...You cant ever get that when you try any ohter costumes accross the world...than HIJAB" !!!
SO this is itt...wear the smiles and have the intention...InshALlah We'd all get there ONE DAYYYY... wassalammm!!!
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Khaldun
12-27-2004, 11:35 PM
:sl:

brother A. Mukhtar news reached me that u were typing this very long and probably very beneficial reply but due to Allahs Qadr it got lost. hope u somehow can retype it inshAllah :)

mashAllah i agree sister with ur words, although I cant tell ppl how it feels to wear hijab (i am a brother :P ) what I can say is that, as ummatee sort of said....Hijab increases piety and not only that its a direct command from Allahu Subhanu Wa Tala, and whosever acts upon this command has fulfilled it and whosever leaves it has abdandond it.
As for the appearance issue some ppl seem to have, Hijab is not put on to make one "look more beautiful" as some ppl wrongly believe, rather it is an act of safeguarding ones beauty. But one thing is certain, sisters wearing Hijab almost always radiat with a speciell kind of nur walhamdulilah!!
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Umm Yoosuf
03-31-2005, 05:01 PM
:sl:

Masha Allah this is a very interesting post unfortunately I was here at the time it was posts, I hope you don’t mind me digging it up again. I agree with has been said. Just to add that the Hijaab is an obligation on the Muslim women. I met many born-Muslim sisters that don’t cover. Why? It’s quite simple because they don’t understand? I was having a discussion with a born Muslim sister, who wanted to start practising Islam Alhmdulilaah, she asked me question such as why do you cover? Aren’t you hot in that thing? How old are you? Like age matters. It broke my heart to see that all these questions are coming from a MUSLIMAH!

Three reason’s why sister don’t cover
1) They are ignorant of the truth and so don’t understand
2) Because of society and per-pressure from friends, family etc
3) They recognise the truth yet they don’t follow it because their hearts is sealed.

Why care what society thinks? Why care what your friends think? Why care what your family say’s? Are they going to help you when you stand before the Ar-Rahmaan, ALLAH.

Do you not relies that ALLAH COMMANDS you yes the MUSLIM WOMAN to cover!
Surely if you believe and witness La illaha ilalaah, that there is no God worthy of our worship expect Allah, you should understand and expect that He knows what’s best for you.

I’m not saying that it’s easy to observe that Hijaab. No it’s not as simple us that. I’m just saying it’s time we stopped making excuses and recognise the truth.

As for the Brother well what can I say? I’m no male but understand that brothers you can hide behind that crowd. All you have to do is put on pair of jeans and a cap and you look like these people. It’s as simple as that. Many brother’s do this these days, that I can no longer tell the differences between you and a non-Muslim.

Forgive me for my hursh words.
:w:
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niqaabii
03-31-2005, 05:32 PM
tru say sis
veri interesting topic
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Noora_z3
03-31-2005, 06:04 PM
I difineitly dont think that Hijaab is a Torture, its a bless, here r some advantages of wearing Hijaab "Niqab in my case" derived from my own experiance in Malaysia. :sister:

1- U dont recive any cheap glances from the sides of the road
2- Ppl realize that this girl is not an easy shot, so no one mess with a hijabi sis.
3- it gives the impression that the person whos wearin it is a seriouse commited and desciplined woman.
4- Recive lots of respect from brothers, such as many times brothers gave up their seats for us in a crowded bus.. :D.
5- Some narrow minded ppl fear u..lol..thats an advanage for getting things done fast.. ;)
6- the Hijab is a constant reminder that we r Muslims which keeps us always checking ourselves for limitations.
7- and most importantly, the Reward Allah has written for us "Hijabi sisters", nothing...and nothing equals to that. :)
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root
03-31-2005, 08:00 PM
Three reason’s why sister don’t cover
1) They are ignorant of the truth and so don’t understand
2) Because of society and per-pressure from friends, family etc
3) They recognise the truth yet they don’t follow it because their hearts is sealed.
I thought this post was very interesting.

Your words indeed were harsh, and please do not retaliate to my post with such harshness or I will simply fail to respond.

I think the Hijab is oppresive in a Western Society. This is based on a principle that one should be free to wear the Hijab, I think to say to a muslim in a free society that is trying to move towards multi-cultural that their obedience towards Allah is based on this. As this inevitably brings to bear a pressure to conform.

Our world is one of high technology that has brought about the acceleration of communication, indeed facial communication is of paramount importance.

Why care what society thinks? Why care what your friends think? Why care what your family say’s? Are they going to help you when you stand before the Ar-Rahmaan, ALLAH.
I think one should care for the Society they happen to live in, for it breeds an opposite effect. Or are you asking non muslim's to accept arrogance from muslims as a point of faith! For I think it is wrong to ask this of society.

The obligatory wearing of the Hijab is only ever made applicable with Islamic States, and not Islamic Republics. of which their are non on this planet.
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S_87
03-31-2005, 09:08 PM
^^ so
do you reckon its ok to walk around half naked?
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h1jabi_sista
03-31-2005, 09:33 PM
:sl:
this is a very intresting topic but it has to be handled carefully. personally i love my hijab and its become a part of me!! By the love of allah subhana watha allah it is and inshallah will never be a torture to me or any of the other hijabees!
But something i find alot that happens is girls dont want to wear it because they 'are not ready.' And something i find difficult to do is to provide a suitable answer back. but i dont understand why? why are there so many excuses to do a simple act which allah subhana watha allah has said you must do.
Sisters your absoulty right about the reasons why some girls may think its a torture but what can i and what can we do in order to change the way they think of this?
it breaks my heart to see the hijab being misused because it is something which in itself is a beautiful thing but similarly it covers the beauty of a woman.

allah knows best
:w:
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h1jabi_sista
03-31-2005, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by amani
^^ so
do you reckon its ok to walk around half naked?
certainly not if i may say so myself :)
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WomanOfJihad
03-31-2005, 09:43 PM
:sl:

i guess the Reason why the Sisters might say
" i am not ready"
is because they may have never thought of Wearing Hijaab .. nor they must have ever had the Intention to do hijaab .. but thats nt a very good example .. if they are not ready YET .. so WHEN are they going to be ready? .. we wudnt expect the Intention to cum Automatically.. WE HAVE to make the intention from our Hearts .. in order to Become ready ...
its in this Western Society that the sisters have forgotten Hijaab .. i dnt blame them .. its the Environment and the company they were brought up in that never MADE them Realise the IMPORTANCE of covering .. since they were brought up in a non islamic Environment ..they have Adopted their Actions and sum may have adopted their beliefs as well..
i.e. Hijaab Not IMPORTANT

:w:
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Genius
03-31-2005, 11:02 PM
If people don't wear hijab it's their problem, you can tell them what the Quran says but ultimately its none of your business.

However a woman has every right to wear the hijab if she choose's to, i don't think its up to Root and people like him to decide whether it represents oppression or not, it is completely up to the person wearing it. People who believe the hijab is a symbol of oppression should keep schtum and let people dress the way they choose.
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*charisma*
03-31-2005, 11:54 PM
Asalamu alaikum

I personally think that a muslimah should wear hijab when she is 100% ready to despite how long it will take for her to decide. The reason for this is because they need to be sure that once they wear it they wont have any doubts and soon decide to take it off. Also it is recommended that a girl strengthens her faith b4 she starts wearing hijab when it is time to do so. Praying and such will help strengthen the faith.

Reason i think some musilmahs dont wear it:
1. they arent ready to
2. may live in a dangerous environment so it could be of fear from the people
3. arent religious

why i think they should wear it:
1. Keeps you protected from perverted ppl>>rape, sexual assults, etc.
2. Shows modesty
3. Gives you more control over your body
4. Less expensive meaning you could use your money on more important things rather than the top quality clothings.
5. Brings postitive attention rather than negative attention from the opposite sex
6. Its part of the religion to spread Islam, therefore you can be recognized as a muslimah.
7. You're noticed more for your mind rather than your body.
8. And lasty, because Allah said so and Allah knows best.

fi aman allah
w'salaam
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-31-2005, 11:58 PM
I can't imagine it's hard to wear. I expect the only reason that a muslim woman would not wear her Hijaab would be that she simply doesn't care and is probbly very secularized.
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Arwa
04-01-2005, 12:00 AM
I think nearly all muslimah's know for a fact that the hijaab is fard ...
but what I don't get is .. although they know..why don't they wear it!?! :confused:

:'(
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*charisma*
04-01-2005, 01:19 AM
asalamu aliakum

haha arwa cant spell...fard hehe u ment hard right lol

well anywayz depending on where ur at i believe that it can be extremely hard at times
especially where ppl are prejudice and racist. In the ME i must say it is very easy to wear it in my oppinion because you have ur fam and the support of everyone. but overall i dont think anyone should really think of wearing it for ppl but for themselves and allah.

w'salaam
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root
04-01-2005, 02:08 PM
However a woman has every right to wear the hijab if she choose's to, i don't think its up to Root and people like him to decide whether it represents oppression or not, it is completely up to the person wearing it.
Ok this is what you said in response to what I said.

I think the Hijab is oppresive in a Western Society. This is based on a principle that one should be free to wear the Hijab,
What I am saying is that Muslim women should be free to wear the Hijab out of choice. And not imposed upon them or viewed by fellow muslims as a sign of non true muslim by non wearers of the hijab.

^^ so
do you reckon its ok to walk around half naked?
I struggle to understand why based on the question "Should a women cover her natural buety" has resulted in the non wearing of the hijab making you naked.
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Far7an
04-01-2005, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*

haha arwa cant spell...fard hehe u ment hard right lol
NO, i think she meant fardh as in Obligatory
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Brother_Mujahid
04-01-2005, 02:17 PM
*insert sami yusuf nasheed "the creator"....... Laa illaha illala laa illaha illaha la.......*
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S_87
04-01-2005, 02:34 PM
:sl:

yh arwa meant fardh

which hijab is

:D
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Brother_Mujahid
04-01-2005, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by amani
:sl:

yh arwa meant fardh

which hijab is

:D
be quiet im trying to listen to the nasheed
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Uthman
04-01-2005, 02:42 PM
:sl:

:lol:

:w:

P.S. I think Charisma was just joking!
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S_87
04-01-2005, 03:01 PM
:sl:

which nasheed ???
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Uthman
04-01-2005, 03:05 PM
:sl:

'The Creator' By Sami Yusuf :p

:w:
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S_87
04-01-2005, 03:12 PM
:sl:

i see???

whats it got to do with hijab???
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Uthman
04-01-2005, 03:14 PM
:sl:

Have you heard the nasheed? :) Because I have heard a bit of it but not all of it so perhaps hijaab is mentioned in there or something? But anyway, it's just Brother_Mujahid being the usual funny fruitcake that he is. :) (<-- Standard conclusion)

So back to the topic . . . .

:w:
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h1jabi_sista
04-01-2005, 03:43 PM
:sl:
darn! i got that nasheed in my head now!!!!! :)
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Uthman
04-01-2005, 03:53 PM
:sl:

*Ahem* I said back to the topic! *Righteous twin* :p

:w:
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WomanOfJihad
04-01-2005, 04:02 PM
[QUOTE=*charisma*]Asalamu alaikum

I personally think that a muslimah should wear hijab when she is 100% ready to despite how long it will take for her to decide. The reason for this is because they need to be sure that once they wear it they wont have any doubts and soon decide to take it off. Also it is recommended that a girl strengthens her faith b4 she starts wearing hijab when it is time to do so. Praying and such will help strengthen the faith.
Sis Charisma ..uve mentioned above that a Muslimah shud wear a hijaab when shes ready no matter how long it takes her to decide , BUt wat if DEATH knoks Our Door before that ? .. it will b too late then.. the muslimah wud have Failed to Obey the Simplest command of Allah swt...
and you hav also mentioned their FAITH needs to be strong in order to start wearing Hijaab ..forgive me sis .. but i dnt agree there ... When u Start wearing Hijab thats when u build up in ur Faith ... n thats when u Realise the Importance of being a mUslimah n thats when a MUslimah cums to know about their duties in Islam ..
this is wat the Majority of the sisters say
" i m not even pious i dnt pray 5 times my imaan is not strong, i comit too many sins how can i wear Hijaab"

but they shud realise ..Once they Adopt Hijaab SubhanAllah their Life will AUTOMATICALLY change ..

Reason i think some musilmahs dont wear it:
1. they arent ready to
2. may live in a dangerous environment so it could be of fear from the people
These are the reasons why the Majority of the Sisters dnt do Hijaab .
The First Reason .
THEY ARENT READY = theres no such thing as Ready.. its Allah swt command they shudnt think TWICE of following the Command.. lok at the examples of the sahabah when a wahi used to b revealed the Sahabahs Immediately at that very second used start actin upon it .. then y is it .. we Question ourselves whether we r ready to obey the commands of Allah swt ? (ALLAHU ALIM)

the SECONd Reason : if its about living in an area where pple are Racist .. n fear they might do Sumfin to YOU .. again thats NOT a good reason Either ..
Not wearing Hijaab due to the fear of KUFFAR ? SUBHANALLAH! thats reallyy NERVE racking for me ... WE shud b Doing MUJAHADAH .. n not be Scared of the Kuffar ..

* ive experienced the Kuffar , but that doesnt mean i STOP obeying the Comands of my Creator JUST coz of this JAHILSSS teasing , swearing making racist coment * (SubhanAllah)

:w:
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Arwa
04-01-2005, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by farhan247
NO, i think she meant fardh as in Obligatory
Yeah I did ;D
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Umm Yoosuf
04-01-2005, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by root
I thought this post was very interesting.

Your words indeed were harsh, and please do not retaliate to my post with such harshness or I will simply fail to respond.

I think the Hijab is oppresive in a Western Society. This is based on a principle that one should be free to wear the Hijab, I think to say to a muslim in a free society that is trying to move towards multi-cultural that their obedience towards Allah is based on this. As this inevitably brings to bear a pressure to conform.

Our world is one of high technology that has brought about the acceleration of communication, indeed facial communication is of paramount importance.



I think one should care for the Society they happen to live in, for it breeds an opposite effect. Or are you asking non muslim's to accept arrogance from muslims as a point of faith! For I think it is wrong to ask this of society.

The obligatory wearing of the Hijab is only ever made applicable with Islamic States, and not Islamic Republics. of which their are non on this planet.
I apologies for been harsh :-[

You think it’s oppressive for the Muslim women to wear the Hijab in this society? Why? Because she look’s a bit odd? Concealed from the evil of this so-called free society? Bear in mind that this society isn’t free. If this society is free why don't women dare to walk alone in a dark street? Why are cases of sexual harassment reported on the news everyday?

Look at many rapes take place in the West. You see there’s something terribly wrong with today's secular societies, and modesty is greatly needed. The same women who flaunt their so-called "freedom" by displaying their nudity to the world are obviously paying the price for their shameful behavior.

There’s many blessings of wearing the Hijab. If only you understood. In the Qur'an Allah (SWT) says,

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their chastity; that is purer for them. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to make a display of their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast a cover over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women...or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex... And turn to Allah (God) altogether, O believers, in order that you might succeed." [Qur'an 24: 30-31]

The Qur'an is very clear that hijab is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Qur'an continues to shine:

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Qur'an 33:59]

Modesty is prescribed to protect the Muslim women from molestation . Unlike Christianity, it is not a sign of woman's subjection to man. Unlike the veil in Jewish tradition, it is not a sign of luxury and distinction of noble married women. Islam is the only religion in which hijab is meant to honor women and protect them from the lowly and inferior status of a mere sexual object. In fact, the Qur'an is so concerned about women that a man who falsely accuses a woman's chastity will be severely punished:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)-Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: For such men are wicked transgressors." [Qur'an 24:4]
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root
04-02-2005, 02:14 PM
You think it’s oppressive for the Muslim women to wear the Hijab in this society?
No, I think the mandatory wearing of the Hijab is oppresive. Free will dictates that a women is free to wear the Hijab if she so feels. My point is that this can be used to force people to comply with a doubtful set of guidelines. "Your not a true Muslim unless you wear it" - situation......

Why?
because the choice as to wear the Hijab or not should be a free decision by the person wearing it.

Look at many rapes take place in the West.
Yes, look at the rapes in the West for they are actually recorded under law & includes the raping of a wife!!! Do you really think covering up a woman "totally" puts an end to rape?

The same women who flaunt their so-called "freedom" by displaying their nudity to the world are obviously paying the price for their shameful behavior.
Read your words again? your misrepresenting what your saying to support your case. How does the non wearing of the Hijab become "Shameful Behaviour"

Bear in mind that this society isn’t free. If this society is free why don't women dare to walk alone in a dark street? Why are cases of sexual harassment reported on the news everyday?
Your deluding yourself if you beleive that!

I really don't want to talk about "dark Streets" & "Evil" of the western free society. I have walked down Shahrah-e-Faisal many times, I have walked in those shoes. I know the difference...............

Do you?

Regards

Root

Hash

After you have had your great & free education in this country and considering you hate it so much I sure hope you leave this place of Evil that you dislike so much.
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Uthman
04-02-2005, 02:22 PM
:sl:

Ameen. :)

:w:
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*charisma*
04-03-2005, 03:34 AM
Asalamu aliakum

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by WomanOfJihad
Sis Charisma ..uve mentioned above that a Muslimah shud wear a hijaab when shes ready no matter how long it takes her to decide , BUt wat if DEATH knoks Our Door before that ? .. it will b too late then.. the muslimah wud have Failed to Obey the Simplest command of Allah swt...
When death knocks on her door she will first be questioned about her prayers, if her faith isnt strong enough then she must not be praying regularly and if shes not praying regularly and having a good strong faith how do u expect her to wear hijab? When her faith is strong enough to pray then i beleive it should be strong enough for her to wear hijab as well. I also would like to add that its not was not orderdered by Allah for a girl to wait until she is 100% ready to wear hijab, but that was strictly my oppinion. Why should someone wear a hijab not feel right about it, or feel that they are week in the eyes of society, take it off and then decide to come back to it and take it off again? why not just put it on for good after strengthening ur iman so that u can lead a good example for others?

and you hav also mentioned their FAITH needs to be strong in order to start wearing Hijaab ..forgive me sis .. but i dnt agree there ... When u Start wearing Hijab thats when u build up in ur Faith ... n thats when u Realise the Importance of being a mUslimah n thats when a MUslimah cums to know about their duties in Islam .. but they shud realise ..Once they Adopt Hijaab SubhanAllah their Life will AUTOMATICALLY change ..

i never said her faith needs to be strong i said it is recommended to be strong as for it will help her carry out her role as a muslimah.
when a muslimah with a weak iman decides to wear hijab she does think about how her life will change for the better, but she thinks about how it might change for the worse, such as being treatened, hurt, ect. One with a strong iman doesnt need to think twice about whether she should wear it or not because she knows both the good and bad that will come out of it, yet either way it wont bother her for she will KNOW that it was Allah's command.

These are the reasons why the Majority of the Sisters dnt do Hijaab .
The First Reason .
THEY ARENT READY = theres no such thing as Ready.. its Allah swt command they shudnt think TWICE of following the Command.. lok at the examples of the sahabah when a wahi used to b revealed the Sahabahs Immediately at that very second used start actin upon it .. then y is it .. we Question ourselves whether we r ready to obey the commands of Allah swt ? (ALLAHU ALIM)

the SECONd Reason : if its about living in an area where pple are Racist .. n fear they might do Sumfin to YOU .. again thats NOT a good reason Either ..
Not wearing Hijaab due to the fear of KUFFAR ? SUBHANALLAH! thats reallyy NERVE racking for me ... WE shud b Doing MUJAHADAH .. n not be Scared of the Kuffar ..

* ive experienced the Kuffar , but that doesnt mean i STOP obeying the Comands of my Creator JUST coz of this JAHILSSS teasing , swearing making racist coment * (SubhanAllah)
1st reason- i agree with you
2nd reason- yup i agree with you on that too another reason that a girl needs to strengthen her imaan so that she does not care what others/society thinks of her, but what Allah thinks of her, she shouldnt fear the ppl but Allah, for Allah can only protect. BTW These were simply reasons that i thought were why some girls DONT wear hijab through my perspective not why they shouldnt wear it. :)


fi aman allah
w'salaam
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Brother_Mujahid
04-03-2005, 11:30 AM
awighty, to find out why someone a muslimah is not wearing hijab all you have to do is go back to the root of the problem.........

which simply is the upbringing of the child. if a child has parents who have shown taught a young muslimah about the importance of hijab then the child will automatically wear the hijab. so from a young age the young muslimah will obey her parents and Allah.

the next obstacle is when this young muslimah goes school college. the temptations of being 'like everyone else' arises. But with a good upbringing the child will choose friends she fits in with and is comfortable with and hopefully will not be affected by peer pressure to not want to wear hijab.

so next time you see a hijabi wearing hijab but not quite cvering herself properly, try not to be judgemental. It is still a step closer to improving oneself inshallah

wasalam :shade:
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Umm Yoosuf
04-03-2005, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by root
No, I think the mandatory wearing of the Hijab is oppresive. Free will dictates that a women is free to wear the Hijab if she so feels. My point is that this can be used to force people to comply with a doubtful set of guidelines. "Your not a true Muslim unless you wear it" - situation......



because the choice as to wear the Hijab or not should be a free decision by the person wearing it.



Yes, look at the rapes in the West for they are actually recorded under law & includes the raping of a wife!!! Do you really think covering up a woman "totally" puts an end to rape?



Read your words again? your misrepresenting what your saying to support your case. How does the non wearing of the Hijab become "Shameful Behaviour"



Your deluding yourself if you beleive that!

I really don't want to talk about "dark Streets" & "Evil" of the western free society. I have walked down Shahrah-e-Faisal many times, I have walked in those shoes. I know the difference...............

Do you?

Regards

Root

Hash

After you have had your great & free education in this country and considering you hate it so much I sure hope you leave this place of Evil that you dislike so much.
Root wearing the Hijab is a command from Allah (God) to the women, understand that first. Whether she wears’s it or not is her free choose. As Allah has given her an intellect to know what is right from wrong. But if she doesn’t wear it then she is sinning.

Why must she wear it? I told you before; it’s a command from Allah. The creator knows what is best for His creation. Islam means submission and surrender to the laws of Allah. Meaning what? Meaning that if you truly believe that Islam is the truth then you submit yourself to Allah. You do everything that He is pleased with and you keep away from everything that is displeasing to Him. You do everything that He commands you and you keep away from everything He orders you to keep away from.

Lets not forget that the Hijab is not just a veil or a piece of sheet that a women conceals herself but it also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

6. Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

7. Capital punishment for the rapists
Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women
Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape
United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.
Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes
Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Peace Root.

My point is that this can be used to force people to comply with a doubtful set of guidelines.
A doubtful set of guidelines? How so are the rules of Islam doubtful? The beauty of the woman is not hers when it has been shared by every guy on the street, nor when it has been used by every guy in his dreams. That is not beauty, that is blasphemy. Blasphemy of the natural human instincts. Take for example, nakedness. If you were to be stripped down to your skin and made to walk on the street, how self conscious would you be? Now, the more you do it, and the more you see others do it, the less you will begin to notice, and eventually the shame will have left you. Such is the nature of these "doubtful" guidelines. They are made to compliment, not contradict, the nature of mankind. As a side point, i have yet to see any decent moral law in anti-Islamic societies, which truly liberate women.

because the choice as to wear the Hijab or not should be a free decision by the person wearing it.
Just as the choice of wearing any clothes at all should be a free decision by the person wearing it, no? Im sure you scoff at that, for there are some rules which are moral, and some which arent. If you attain sexual pleasure from viewing women revealing themselves, then i can see your stand, but other than that, you cannot deny that Islam offers (notice i say offers, not forces) them the best protection than any other legal scheme on the face of the earth.

Yes, look at the rapes in the West for they are actually recorded under law & includes the raping of a wife!!! Do you really think covering up a woman "totally" puts an end to rape?
No one ever claimed that society was free of evil people. What Islam says is not to give incentives to lustful vulgarities, nor leave any doors open. The rapes of Muslim women tend to be for 2 reasons. 1) As an insult to the religion, and to the hijaab itself. 2) As a result of the woman revealing herself, or sexually enticing the rapist.

Perhaps you might like to know that 2 out of every 3 women in the west are sexually harrassed in their life time. I would like to know whether those 2 out of 3 werent showing off their backsides to merit what they got. You reap the reward of the seeds that you sow. You sow the seeds of vulgar, abhorent, indecent actions, and you reap nothing less than vulgar, abhorent and indecent actions right back in your face. Well deserved.

Read your words again? your misrepresenting what your saying to support your case. How does the non wearing of the Hijab become "Shameful Behaviour"
Once again, root, you show your ignorance of the concept of hijaab. Hijaab doesnt mean long, black, traditional Arab dress. It consists of modest covering. Therefore if you are not dressed in modest covering (hijaab) you are dressing shamefully.

I have walked down Shahrah-e-Faisal many times, I have walked in those shoes. I know the difference............... Do you?
Care to enlighten us?

Regards
Reply

root
04-04-2005, 02:34 PM
A doubtful set of guidelines? How so are the rules of Islam doubtful?
Because they are based on "Interpretation".


The beauty of the woman is not hers when it has been shared by every guy on the street, nor when it has been used by every guy in his dreams. That is not beauty,
reminds me of the paradox, "Because I ain't sayin it don't mean I ain't thinkin it.



that is blasphemy. Blasphemy of the natural human instincts.
Blasphemy is not a "Natural" human instinct. It is "Extelligence" and so follows it is also manipulative. Their is nothing natural about blasphemy.
Take for example, nakedness. If you were to be stripped down to your skin and made to walk on the street, how self conscious would you be? Now, the more you do it, and the more you see others do it, the less you will begin to notice, and eventually the shame will have left you. Such is the nature of these "doubtful" guidelines.
I understand your point. But this is Extelligence you are referring to.

They are made to compliment, not contradict, the nature of mankind. As a side point, i have yet to see any decent moral law in anti-Islamic societies, which truly liberate women.
I have yet to see an Islamic State do a better job, given recent history such as the Taliban who were not exactly a good example of an Islamic state of which their are no Islamic states, they fail. (I wonder why)!!

Perhaps you might like to know that 2 out of every 3 women in the west are sexually harrassed in their life time. I would like to know whether those 2 out of 3 werent showing off their backsides to merit what they got. You reap the reward of the seeds that you sow. You sow the seeds of vulgar, abhorent, indecent actions, and you reap nothing less than vulgar, abhorent and indecent actions right back in your face. Well deserved.
I wonder if we may compare your figures to that of the Islamic world? Let us take Afghanistan or Pakistan for example. Can you publish the "Rape & Sexual abuse" statistics so we may compare them to the West and also please indicate wether your figures include the Rape of women by their Husbands.

I was in an "Islamic Republic". I found the sexual abuse of women to be so blatantly bad that in my opinion the "West" is surely a safe haven for women. I speak of personal experience and can state that I witnessed sexual abuse of the highest order. I know Islam likes to attack the "West's" record and that is because they have the records to go by.

The saying that springs to mind is bring your own house into order before you criticise others. Does Islam protect women, of course it don't. But still the perpetrators of the sexual abuse went to the Mosque and preyed.
Reply

root
04-04-2005, 02:42 PM
10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes
Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.
This reminds me of a female Iranian minister for her response on how to stop prostitution.

"We should make it punishable by death, kill a few of them and that will be the end of the matter once and for all"
Islamic Shariah will never be adopted in the West or the US. And I for one am very pleased our own laws forbid these types of laws being passed on us.
Reply

Khattab
04-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Root I dont know what "Islamic Republic" you where in, but there is not a single true one living by the full sharia. Does Islam protect women? No it doesnt? I dont know how you could say Islam doesnt protect women, its a kind of ignorant statement, of course rapes happen, and it is a fact it is worse in Western countires than in Islamic countries, i think you may have been out in Pakistan and in that area of asia along with India a non muslim country it is more to do with cultural reasons rather than religious, why women are treated the way they are.

Are raped women punished in Islam? Here is an answer to the question

http://www.islamonline.net/askabouti...uestionID=2681


Also why is a nun who covers up seen as holy and following God but when a muslim women wears a hijab she as seen as oppressed and backwards? Double standards no?
Reply

root
04-04-2005, 03:26 PM
Also why is a nun who covers up seen as holy and following God but when a muslim women wears a hijab she as seen as oppressed and backwards? Double standards no?
I don't see a nun as double standards. Catholism does not ask it's beleivers to comply this way.

Root I dont know what "Islamic Republic" you where in, but there is not a single true one living by the full sharia.
I agree, their are no Islamic states on this planet. Their are "islamic Republics"
Reply

Khattab
04-04-2005, 03:31 PM
Thats another discussion, if they dont want to live by there book then it is there choice, but this is Islam many women if not most women who wear the hijab do so of there own will because they choose to follow Islam, it has been ordered by Allah (SWT) and as muslims we must follow the way of the Quran and Sunnah.

Also can a nun be a nun without covering up, her head etc, coming from a christian background i think you will have a better insight into this than me?
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-04-2005, 03:43 PM
Root whats a woman getting raped by her husband got to do with Islam?

Do you think Islam allows it?

If you haven't forgotten I am a Muslim woman and i where the Hijaab on my own accord. I reject what the West is propagating to me.

That makesme oppressed does it?
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-04-2005, 03:49 PM
This reminds me of a female Iranian minister for her response on how to stop prostitution.
It excuse me!?!




Islamic Shariah will never be adopted in the West or the US. And I for one am very pleased our own laws forbid these types of laws being passed on us
The USA doesn't have capital punishment?
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-04-2005, 03:52 PM
Peace Root.

Thank you for your response. I believe that it would greatly aid your deduction skills, were you to read and understand my post. No offense intended.

Because they are based on "Interpretation".
Interpretation? Once again, your ignorance. We follow the Prophet, whose example was perfect, and his rightfully guided companions. Just look at the man, Muhammad (pbuh). He brought Arabia, a country which the superpowers didnt even look at because of how low it was, to the pinnacle of power in that age. If it werent for disunity, Islam would still be the superpower. Now i ask you, if it wasnt because of the truth that he preached, why was he accepted by so many? The Arabs are a more hardy folk than the whites. They stick to their traditions and cultures. They are not people to give in to new ideas. Yet practically all of them accepted this faith, why?

So you are telling me that your laws are not based on interpretation? Do you not interpret what you think is the most moral code? What your human instincts tell you? What you conscious tells you? Do you not interpret that to form your laws? Or perhaps they are divinely inspired to you. They must be interpreted; from all people - to fulfill the peoples' each and every sensual desire. That is interpretation, not Islam.

reminds me of the paradox, "Because I ain't sayin it don't mean I ain't thinkin it.
Ho ho, so because the thought is there, it is acceptable? Why give an incentive? That is my question to you, why take the chance? Let them think, they will always think, but you should take all precautions.

Blasphemy is not a "Natural" human instinct.
An example of not understanding my words? When did i say that blasphemy was a natural human instinct?

I have yet to see an Islamic State do a better job, given recent history such as the Taliban who were not exactly a good example of an Islamic state of which their are no Islamic states, they fail. (I wonder why)!!
Whoever said that the Taliban, or any other regime for that matter, were fulfilling the laws of Islam correctly?

Can you publish the "Rape & Sexual abuse" statistics
I can, yes, but since it is you who is trying to use them to make a point, ill let you have that honour.

I was in an "Islamic Republic". I found the sexual abuse of women to be so blatantly bad that in my opinion the "West" is surely a safe haven for women. I speak of personal experience and can state that I witnessed sexual abuse of the highest order. I know Islam likes to attack the "West's" record and that is because they have the records to go by.
At the present time, there is no such thing as an Islamic Republic. Therefore, your point collapsed before it started.

Does Islam protect women, of course it don't.
Islam does protect women. Dont judge Islam by the people who claim to be following it. If you have a beautiful, brand new, perfectly working car, and a rubbish driver, and the driver crashes, where does the blame lie? The car or the driver? The driver! Why? Because he didnt use it correctly. Same with Islam.

I urge you not to take example from the majority of the Muslims, they dont know their right hands from their left.

Regards
Reply

root
04-04-2005, 05:28 PM
Ok, this debate is getting too big for me to be able to manage. Can I break it down a little. I really object to the notion that Islam keeps the same statistics to rape and sexual harrassment. I know you said that I should look and I did and I cannot find them. (Because they don't exist)!!!!!

I found this though: Along with the names of 800 women currently in Pakistani jails that were dumb enough to cry rape when not in a Western country.

The Offence of Zina (Enforcement Of Hudood) Ordinance, 1979.
Ordinance No. VII of 1979
February 9th, 1979

An Ordinance to bring in conformity with the injunctions of Islam the law relating to the Offence of Zina.

WHEREAS it is necessary to modify the existing law relating to zina so as to bring it in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

AND WHEREAS the President is satisfied that circumstances exist which render it necessary to take immediate action;

Now, THEREFORE, in pursuance of the Proclamation of the fifth day of July 1977, read with the Laws (Continuance in Force), Order, 1977 (C.M.L.A. Order No. l of 1977), and in exercise of all powers enabling him in that behalf, the President is pleased to make and promulgate the following Ordinance:-
Chapter I
PRELIMINARY
1. Short title, extent and commencement
(1) This Ordinance may be called the Offence of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance, 1979.

(2) It extends to the whole of Pakistan.

(3) It shall come into force on the twelfth day of Rabi-ul-Awwal, 1399 Hijri, that is, the tenth day of February, 1979.

2. Definitions
In this Ordinance, unless there is anything repugnant in the subject of context:
(a) "adult" means a person who has attained, being a male, the age of eighteen years or, being a female, the age of sixteen years, or has attained puberty;
(b) "hadd" means punishment ordained by the Holy Quran or Sunnah;
(c) "marriage" means marriage which is not void according to the personal law or the parties, and "married" shall be construed accordingly;
(d) "Muhsan" means (ii) a Muslim adult woman who is not insane and has had sexual intercourse with a Muslim adult man who, at the time she had sexual intercourse with him, was married to her and was not insane;
(i) a Muslim adult man who is not insane and has had sexual intercourse with a Muslim adult woman who, at the time he had sexual intercourse with her, was married to him and was not insane; or
and
(e) "tazir" means any punishment other than "hadd", and all other terms and expressions not defined in this Ordinance shall have the same meaning as the Pakistan Penal Code, or the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898.

3. Oridnance to override other Laws.
The provisions of this Ordinance shall have effect nothwithstanding anything contained in any other law for the time being in force.

4. Zina
A man and a woman are said to commit 'Zina' if they wilfully have sexual intercourse without being validly married to each other.

Explanation: Penetration is sufficient to constitute the sexual intercourse necessary to the offence of Zina.


5. Zina liable to hadd.
(1) Zina is zina liable to hadd if-
(a) it is committed by a man who is an adult and is not insane with a woman to whom he is not, and does not suspect himself to be married; or
(b) it is committed by a woman who is an adult and is not insane with a man to whom she is not, and does not suspect herself to be, married.

(2) Whoever is guilty of Zina liable to hadd shall, subject to the provisions of this Ordinance, -
(a) if he or she is a muhsan, be stoned to death at a public place; or
(b) if he or she is not muhsan, be punished, at a public place; with whipping numbering one hundred stripes.

(3) No punishment under sub-section (2) shall be executed until it has been confirmed by the Court to which an appeal from the order of conviction lies; and if the punishment be of whipping; until it is confirmed and executed, the convict shall be dealt with in the same manner as if sentenced to simple imprisonment.

6. Zina bil Jabr
(1) A person is said to commit zina-bil-jabrif he or she has sexual inter-course with a woman or man, as the case may be, to whom he or she is not validly married, in any of the following circumstances, namely:-
(a) against the will of the victim;
(b) without the consent of the victim;
(c) with the consent of the victim, when the consent has been obtained by putting the victim in fear of death or of hurt; or
(d) with the consent of the victim , when the offender knows that the offender is not validly married to the victim and that the consent is given because the victim believes that the offender is another person to who the victim is or believes herself or himself to be validly married.

Explanation: Penetration is sufficient to constitute the sexual inter-course necessary to the offence of zina-bil-jabr.


(2) Zina-bil-jabr is zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd if it is committed in the committed in the circumstances specified in sub-section (1) of section 5.

(3) Whoever is guilty of zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd shall subject to the provisions of this Ordinance, -
(a) if he or she is a muhsan, be stoned to death at a public place; or
(b) if he or she is not muhsan, be punished with whipping numbering one hundred stripes, at a public place, and with such other punishment, including the sentence of death, as the Court may deem fit having regard to the circumstances of the case.

(4) No punishment under sub-section (3) shall be executed until it has been confirmed by the Court to which an appeal from the order of conviction lies; and if the punishment be of whipping until it is comfirmed and executed, the convict shal be dealt with in the same manner as if sentenced to simple imprisonment.

7. Punishment for Zina or zina-bil-jabr where convit is not an adult.
A person guilty of zina or zina-bil-jabr shall, if he is not an adult, be punished wiht imprisonment of either description for a term whic may extend to five years, or with fine, or with both, and may also be awarded the punishment of whipping not exceeding thirty stripes:

Provided that, in the case of zina-bil-jabr, if the offender is not under the age of fifteen years, the punishment of whipping shall be awarded with or without any other punishment.


8. Proof of zina or zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd.
Proof of zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd shall be in one of the following forms, namely:-
(a) the accused makes before a Court of competent jurisdiction a confession of the commission of the offence; or
(b) at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-widnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence:

Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the eye-witnesses may be non-Muslims.


9. Case in which hadd shall not be enforced
(1) In a case in which the offence of zina or zina-bil-jabr is proved only by the confession of the convict, hadd, or such part of it as is yet to be enforced, shall not be enforced if the convict retracts his confession before the hadd or such part is enforced.

(2) In a case in which the offence of zina or zina-bil-jabr is proved only by testimony, hadd or such part of it as is yet to be enforced, shall not be enforced if any witness resiles from his testimony before hadd or such part is enforced, so as to reduce the number of eye-witnesses to less than four.

(3) In the case mentioned in sub-section (1), the Court may order retrial.

(4) In the case mentioned in sub-section (2), the Court may award tazir on the basis of the evidence on record.

10. Zina or zina-bil-jabr liable to tazir.
(1) Subject to the provisions of section 7, whoever commits zina or zina-bil-jabr which is not liable to hadd, or for which proof in either of the forms mentioned in section 8 is not available and the punishment of qazf liable to hadd has not been awarded to the complainant, or for which hadd may not be enforced under this Ordinance, shall be liable to tazir.

(2) Whoever commits zina liable to tazir shall be punished with rigorous imprisonment for a term which [Click here for amendment]may extend to ten years and with whipping numbering thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine.

(3) Whoever commits zina-bil-jabr liable to tazir shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which [Click here for amendment]shall not be less than four years nor more than twenty-five years and shall also be awarded the punishment of whipping numbering thirty stripes.

(4) When zina-bil-jabr liable to tazir is committed by two or more persons in furtherance of common intention of all each of such persons shall be punished with death.

11. Kidnapping, abducitng or inducing women to compel for marriage etc.
Whoever kidnaps or abducts any woman with intent that she may be compelled, or knowing it to be likely that she will be compelled, to marry any person against her will, or in order that she may be forced or seduced to illicit inter-course, or knowing it to be likely that she will be forced or seduced to illicit inter-course, shall be punished with imprisonment for life and with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine; and whoever by means of criminal intimidation as defined in the Pakistan Penal Code, or of abuse of authority or any other method of compulsion, induces any woman to go from any place with intent that she may be, or knowing that it is likely that she will be, forced or seduced to illicit inter-course with another person shall also be punishable as aforesaid.

12. Kidnapping or abducting in order to subject person to unnatural lust.
Whoever kidnaps or abducts any person in order that such person may be subjected, or may be so disposed of as to be put in danger of being subjected, to the unnatural list of any person, or knowing it to be likely that such person will be so subjected or disposed of, shall be punished with death or rigorous imprisonment for a term which may extend to twenty-five years, and shall also be liable to fine, and, if the punishment be one of imprisonment, shal also be awarded the punishment of whipping not exceeding thirty stripes.

13. Selling person for purposes of prostitution, etc.
Whoever sells, lets to hire, or otherwise disposes of any person with intent that such person shall at any time by employed or used for the purpose of prostitution or illicit intercourse with any person or for any unlawful and immoral purpose, or knowing it to be likely that such person will at any time be employed or used for any such purpose, shall be punished with imprisonment for life and with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine.

Explanations:
(a) When a female is sold, let for hire, or otherwise disposed of to a prostitute or to any person who keeps or manages a brothel, the person so disposing of such female shall, until the contrary is proved, be presumed to have disposed of her with the intent that she shall be used for the purpose of prostitution.
(b) For the purposes of this section and section 14 "illicit intercourse" means sexual inter-course between persons not united by marriage.


14. Buying a person for purposes of prostitution, etc.
Whoever buys, hires or otherwise obtains possession of any person with intent that such person shall at any time be employed or used for the purpose of prostitution or illicit intercourse with any person or for any unlawful and immoral purpose, or knowing it to be likely that such person will at any time be employed or used for any such purpose, shall be punished with imprisonment for life and with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine.

Explanation: Any prostitute or any person keeping or managing a brothel, who buys, hires or otherwise obtains posession of a female shall, until the contrary is proved, be presumed to have obtained possession of such female with the intent that she shall be used for the purpose of prostitution.


15. Cohabitation caused by a man deceitfully inducing a belief of lawful marriage
Every man who by deceit causes any woman who is not lawfully married to him to believe that she is lawfully married to him and to cohabit with him in that belief, shall be punished with rigorous imprisonment for a term which may extend to twenty-five years and with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine.

16. Enticing or taking away or detaining with criminal intent a woman
Whoever takes or entices away any woman with intent that she may have illicit inter-course with any person, or conceals or detains with intent any woman, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to seven years and with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, and shall also be liable to fine.

17. Mode of execution of punishment of stoning to death
The punishment of stoning to death awarded under section 5 or section 6 shall be executed in the following manner, namely :-

Such of the witnesses who deposed against the convict as may be available shall start stoning him and, while stoning is being carried on, he may be shot dead, whereupon stoning and shooting shall be stopped.


18. Punishment for attempting to commit an offence
Whoever attempts to commit an offence punishable under this Ordinance with imprisonment or whipping, or to cause such an offence to be committed, and in such atttempt does any act towards the commission of the offence, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one-half of the longest term provided for that offence, or with whipping not exceeding thirty stripes, or with such fine as is provided for the offence, or with any two of, or all, the punishments.

19. Application of certain provisions of Pakistan Penal Code, and amendment.
(1) Unless otherwise expressly provided in this Ordinance, the provisions of sections 34 to 38 of Chapter II, sections 63 to 72 of Chapter III and Chapters V and VA or the Pakistan Penal Code shall apply, mutatis mutandis, in respect of offences under this Ordinance.

(2) Whoever is guilty of the abetment of an offence liable to hadd under this Ordinance shall be liable to the punishment provided for such offence as tazir.

(3) In the Pakistan Penal Code, -
(a) section 366, section 372, section 373, section 375 and section 376 of Chapter XVI and section 493, section 497 of Chapter XX shall stand repealed; and
(b) in section 367, the words and comma "or to the unnatural lust of any person," shall be omitted.

20. Application of Code of Criminal Procedure 1898 and amendment
(1) The provisions of the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1898, hereafter in this section referred to as the Code, shall apply, mutatis mutandis in respect of cases under this Ordinance:

Provided that, if it appears in evidence that the offender has committed a different offence under any other law, he may, if the Court is competent to try that offence and award punishment therefor, be convicted and punished for that offence[Click here for amendment]. :

Provided further that an offence punishable under this Ordinance shall be triable by a Court of Session and not by a Magistrate authorised under section 30 of the said Code and an appeal from an order the Court of Session shall lie to the Federal Shariat Court:

Provided further that a trial by a Court of Session under this Ordinance shall ordinarily be held at the headquarters of the Tehsil in which the offence is alleged to have been committed.


(2) The provision of the Code relating to the confirmation of the sentence of death shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to confirmation of sentences under this Ordinance.

(3) The provisions of section 198, section 199, section 199A or section 199B of the Code shall not apply to the cognizance of an offence punishable under section 15 or section 16 of this Ordinance.

(4) The provision of sub-section (3) of section 391 or section 393 of the Code shall not apploy in respece of the punishment of whipping awarded under this Ordinance.

(5) The provisions of Chapter XXIX of the Code shall not apply in respect of punishments awarded under section 5 or section 6 of this Ordinance.

(6) In the Code, section 561 shall stand repealed.

21. Presiding Officer of Court to be Muslim.
The Presiding Officer of the Court by which a case is tried, or an appeal is heard, under this Ordinance shall be a Muslim:

Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the Presiding Officer may be a non-Muslim.


22. Saving
Nothing in this Ordinance shall be deemed to apply to the cases pending before any Court immediately before the commencement of this Ordinance, or to offences committed before such commencement.
Moving to your question. Yes, sister, raped women are not punished in Islam. What punishment?! This is like saying that a person robbed of his property should be punished. Actually, this notion belongs to places where the law of the jungle is in operation.
It’s a fact that, to be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct,
in the sense that what befell her must be something beyond her control. This is where Islam excels. In dealing with a certain issue or addressing a certain problem, it brings forth a comprehensive panacea that uproots the problem and eliminates its causes. Rather than stipulating a temporary measure that will act as sedatives, Islam gets down to the root of the problem itself with the aim of uprooting entirely. It sets noble codes of conduct that should prevail in the society; it addresses women to maintain their modesty, as not to open the door for evils:
I still don't see how the mans "Guilt" is proven if not by 4 Muslim men who witnesses the "penetration"

How can the notion of "Rape" in the West v "Rape" in Islam be comparible for obviously they are not.

Regards

Root
Reply

S_87
04-04-2005, 09:02 PM
:sl:

root who said muslims were perfect?

unfortunately..there are some who put culture and arrogance in place of islam

but this is about hijab :D
Reply

Uthman
04-04-2005, 09:06 PM
:sl:

Yes, you're right. Islam is perfect but unfortunately most of it's followers are nowhere near. :(

Has the topic strayed away from hijaab then?

:w:
Reply

root
04-04-2005, 09:37 PM
I don't think it is off-Topic. Since, if the "Rapist" be it Husband, friend or complete stranger. (and statistically you are at a far greater risk of rape from the people you actually know than a complete stranger).

before we can deal with the islamic sense of "protecting" a womens rights & freedom including being free from sexual harassment, I need to get a sense of how it is dealt with under an islamic law.
Reply

S_87
04-05-2005, 10:51 AM
well then you are totally misintrepreting..so get proper evidences please. and pakistan aint a shariah ruled country either

did you know a woman can KILL a man for rape?
here goes...

A woman who is being forced to commit zinaa [unlawful sexual activity] is obliged to defend herself and should not give in even if she kills the one who wants to do that to her. This self-defence is waajib (obligatory), and she is not at fault if she kills the one who wants to force her into zinaa. Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever is killed defending his property is a shaheed (martyr), whoever is killed defending himself is a shaheed, whoever is killed defending his religion is a shaheed, and whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed.” In the commentary on this hadeeth it says: “whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed” refers to the one who defends the honour of his wife and female relatives.

If a man is obliged to defend his wife and fight off the one who wants to rape her – even if this leads to his own death – then this obligation applies even more to the woman herself, who must defend herself and not give in to the aggressor who wants to violate her honour, even if she is killed, because if she is killed she will also be a shaheedah, just as her husband will be a shaheed if he was killed defending her honour. Shahaadah (martyrdom, the status of shaheed) is a high status which is only achieved by the one who dies in the way of obedience to Allaah and that which He loves, which indicates that Allaah loves this kind of defence, a man’s fighting to defend his wife’s honour and a woman’s fighting to defend herself. But if she is unable to defend herself, and the evil aggressor overpowers her and rapes her by force, then she should not be subjected to any punishment (hadd or ta’zeer); rather, the punishment should be carried out on the evil aggressor.

It says in al-Mughni by Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: “Concerning a woman who was pursued by a man, and she killed him to protect herself, Ahmad said: ‘If she knew that he wanted [to rape] her, and she killed him to protect herself, then she is not at fault.’ Ahmad mentioned the hadeeth which al-Zuhri reported from al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad, from ‘Ubayd ibn ‘Umayr, in which it said that a man had visitors from [the tribe of] Hudhayl, and he wanted [to rape] a woman, so she threw a rock at him and killed him. ‘Umar said, ‘By Allaah, there is no diyah for him ever’ i.e., she did not have to pay the ‘blood money’ for him. If it is permissible to defend one's money, which one can give away, then a woman defending and protecting herself and her honour which cannot be given away, is clearly more permissible than a man defending his money. If this is clear, then she is obliged to defend herself if she can, because letting someone overpower her [rape her] is haraam, and by not defending herself, she lets him overpower her.” [al-Mughni, 8/331]

And Allaah knows best. Al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, 5/42-43.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Turuq al-Hukmiyyah, 18: “(Section) … A woman who had committed zinaa was brought to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), and he asked her about it and she admitted it, so he commanded that she should be stoned. ‘Ali said: ‘Maybe she had a reason.’ So he said to her, ‘What made you do that?’ She said, ‘I had a partner who shared livestock with me; his camels had water and milk, and mine had none. I got thirsty, so I asked him to give me something to drink, but he refused unless I let him have his way with me. I refused three times, but I was so thirsty that I thought I was going to die, so I gave him what he wanted, and he gave me something to drink.’ ‘Ali said: ‘Allaahu akbar! “… But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Baqarah 2:173 – interpretation of the meaning].’”

In Sunan al-Bayhaqi it says: “From Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sulami, who said: ‘A woman was brought to ‘Umar who had been extremely thirsty, and had passed by a shepherd and asked him to give her something to drink; he had refused to give her something to drink unless she let him have his way with her. [‘Umar] consulted with the people as to whether he should have her stoned. ‘Ali said, ‘She was forced to do it. I think you should let her go.’ So he did so. I say: this is what should be done. If a woman is in desperate need of food and drink from a man, which he will not give her unless she lets him have his way with her, and she is scared that she will die without them, so she lets him have his way with her, then she is not to be punished. If it were asked, is it permissible for her in this situation to let him have his way with her, or does she have to suffer [her hunger and thirst] with patience, even if she dies? The answer is that her case is like that of a woman who is forced to commit zinaa, to whom it is said, ‘Either you let me have my way with you, or I will kill you.’ The woman who is forced to do this should not be punished; she can save herself from being killed in this manner, but if she bears it (i.e., being killed) with sabr (patience), this is better for her. (But she does not have to put up with with being killed). And Allaah knows best.”
Sheikh muhammed Saleh munajid, islamqa.com
Reply

root
04-05-2005, 06:42 PM
did you know a woman can KILL a man for rape?
I think the world is full enough already with vigilantise.

well then you are totally misintrepreting..so get proper evidences please. and pakistan aint a shariah ruled country either
HHmmm, an Islamic Republic being rejected, this can only mean that a "shariah" ruled country would be classed as an Islmic state. is this correct, if it is how does "Shariah" law differ to Pakistan law to rape in it's necessity of proof against an "alleged rapist", and would the accused be brought to justice for rape.

Regards

Root
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2005, 09:18 PM
DNA evidence. Whatever solidifes the deal.

This is very different from zinaa where 4 witnesses are needed because that prevents it from becoming a societal issue. If there were 4 witnesses it is proof that the issue was not kept private but was spread into society, and then it must be punished.

Rape is different because it is a personal crime against a person. Therefore it is dealt with as any crime should be, and that includes collection of evidence and a fair hearing before convicting the accused.

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-05-2005, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by root
I think the world is full enough already with vigilantise.
Its not an issue of vigilante justice, its an issue of inalienable rights.
Reply

root
04-05-2005, 09:52 PM
Its not an issue of vigilante justice, its an issue of inalienable rights.
Ok. I understand that, but how do you know if someone was killed because of an attempted rape or murdered out of cold blood. It does look like a rarther grey area.

DNA evidence. Whatever solidifes the deal.
This is very different from zinaa where 4 witnesses are needed because that prevents it from becoming a societal issue.
Please explain. I am not entirely sure I understand that.

If there were 4 witnesses it is proof that the issue was not kept private
What do you mean the issue was not kept quite. 4 Muslim witnesses who witnessed "penetration", unless someone is gang raped and they all confess what do you mean?

but was spread into society, and then it must be punished.
Again I am lost here.
Reply

Chuck
04-06-2005, 01:08 AM
Please explain. I am not entirely sure I understand that.
Simply put, law for rape is different from consensual sex.
Reply

S_87
04-06-2005, 10:41 AM
root..here are ayahs from the Holy Quran on this..

The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime, but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh’s Law). (24/2)

Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه: Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم judged that the unmarried person who was guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be exiled for one year and receive the legal punishment (i.e., be flogged with one hundred stripes). (Sahih Al-Bukhâri, Vol.8, Hadith No. 819)

Narrated Jâbir bin ‘Abdullâh Al-Ansâri رضي الله عنهما: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person. (Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol.8, Hadith No.805).



And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh).
(24/4)


And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.

And the fifth (testimony should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her).

But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.

. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth.

(24/6-9)
Reply

root
04-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه: Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم judged that the unmarried person who was guilty of illegal sexual intercourse be exiled for one year and receive the legal punishment (i.e., be flogged with one hundred stripes). (Sahih Al-Bukhâri, Vol.8, Hadith No. 819)
Please correct me if I am wrong but the above is relevent to "adultery" and not rape.

Narrated Jâbir bin ‘Abdullâh Al-Ansâri رضي الله عنهما: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Allâh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person. (Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol.8, Hadith No.805).
Again, this is adultery & not rape. Besides which the perpetrator is confessing.

How would an "Islamic State" fully implementing shaier rule law over rape? since an Islamic republic seems to be rejected by it's governing of rape allegations.

regards

Root
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-06-2005, 03:49 PM
Peace root.

Stopped dialoguing with me have you?:)

Regards
Reply

root
04-07-2005, 10:08 AM
Hi Sheikh

Not at all, I am building towards it. I am out of my depth and trying to make sense of it. Too much at once blows my mental circuits so to speak. I am waiting on the results two posts up if you can help.

Regards

Root
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-07-2005, 10:24 AM
Peace Root.

Unless i misunderstand your stance, you are asking regarding rape? Well, this is not a sex offense, it is a violent crime, and requires thorough investigation. It can be punishable by the death sentence, if proven. Ultimately, however, the deed is between the person and God Almighty, who will serve justice when the person meets Him.

You have to remember something. True Muslims (submitters to the will of God - install this to understand that it is not meant as an elevation) do not need punishments, nor do they need trials, nor lashes, nor anything like that. These laws are installed to protect society as a whole, to serve society, and strengthen it. Islam has been incredible lenient (if that is the correct word) on fornicators and adulterers. You must have FOUR witnesses, who actually see the penetration, to testify. Now, consider the logic. If there is a naked man on top of a naked woman, what would they be doing? It is pretty self explanatory, right? This law has been installed so that innocent would not be held liable, or even given a dirty look as punishment. The guilty shall always be guilty, and ultimately it will be God who delivers their sentence. However, Islam is there to protect the people, the sincere people, and it shows mercy and forgiveness above punishment. There isnt one case when someone asked forgiveness from the Prophet (pbuh) and he didnt grant it.

I am pleased that we are dialoguing in such an honourable and amicable way. Keep it up, my friend:).

Warm Regards
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-07-2005, 04:46 PM
Subhanallah the discussion as moved onto rape!
Reply

root
04-08-2005, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Jannah
Subhanallah the discussion as moved onto rape!
Not really, forgive me but I have been a litle busy lately. I am still researching this matter and I beleive their is a link between rape and sexual crimes comparable with a women of Islam "covering up" for want of a better word.


Thanks for your kind words Sheikh. I feel I will enjoy the debates with you too.

Regards
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-08-2005, 07:04 PM
Debate over then....:)
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-08-2005, 07:26 PM
No sister, the discussion isnt over. I believe root is merely trying to get his head around some of the issues discussed, and let's face it, we have given him quite a long list of ideas to get his teeth into, no?:) I think this thread will go on for a while yet, as root seems like one of those intellectuals who keep on coming out with the ideas. Usually it is they that see the light most clearly, hence why i have such an honour discussing with him:).
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-08-2005, 07:33 PM
Masha Allah ok! Well I look forward to more of his questions :)
Reply

root
04-12-2005, 03:07 PM
Hi.

You have to remember something. True Muslims (submitters to the will of God - install this to understand that it is not meant as an elevation) do not need punishments, nor do they need trials, nor lashes, nor anything like that. These laws are installed to protect society as a whole, to serve society, and strengthen it. Islam has been incredible lenient (if that is the correct word) on fornicators and adulterers. You must have FOUR witnesses, who actually see the penetration, to testify. Now, consider the logic. If there is a naked man on top of a naked woman, what would they be doing? It is pretty self explanatory, right? This law has been installed so that innocent would not be held liable, or even given a dirty look as punishment. The guilty shall always be guilty, and ultimately it will be God who delivers their sentence. However, Islam is there to protect the people, the sincere people, and it shows mercy and forgiveness above punishment. There isnt one case when someone asked forgiveness from the Prophet (pbuh) and he didnt grant it.
OK, can we break this down a little.

True Muslims (submitters to the will of God - install this to understand that it is not meant as an elevation) do not need punishments, nor do they need trials, nor lashes, nor anything like that. These laws are installed to protect society as a whole
Which laws protect a women from rape? It's a straight question deserving of a straight answer.

Regards

Root
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-13-2005, 10:43 AM
Peace Root.

The punishment for rape is death.

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you (for your past sins due to the tribulation you have faced). And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
Rape isnt fornication, nor adultery, it is a violent, terrible crime.

Regards
Reply

root
04-13-2005, 12:48 PM
OK I can accept this for what it is. But I feel it is avoiding the issue of your laws since your example deals with the perpetrator confessing. This issue over how an Islamic rule of law deals with rape is not being laid before me, all I seek is an answer to this. "How is rape allegations handled under true Islamic law and\or does the Pakistan law comply in the true spirit of the Islam law to this regard.

Regards

Root
Reply

Chuck
04-13-2005, 01:20 PM
Muslim jurists are generally of the opinion that to evidence a case of rape, the victim has to provide four (not two) witnesses to prove the case. The basis of the Jurist's opinion is the Qur'anic directive regarding the evidence required to start any legal proceedings against persons who have been accused of fornication.

However, a close look at the related verse of the Qur'an shows that it neither relates to the required evidence for rape cases nor for that of ordinary cases of fornication. On the contrary, it relates to the particular situation in which a person, who is generally known to be chaste and pious, is accused of fornication. For this particular case, the Qur'an says:

Those who accuse chaste women of fornication and then do not provide four witnesses [to evidence their accusation] strike them with eighty strips and do not accept their witness ever after. (Al-Noor 24: 4)

Keeping the stresses of the words of the referred verse in perspective, it is quite clear that the verse does not relate to the evidence required to prove a case of rape. On the contrary, it actually relates to protecting chaste women (as well as men) from false accusations of fornication. In other words, the verse is not prescribing the minimum number of witnesses to prove a case of rape or fornication; it is actually prescribing the minimum number of witnesses, which must be present and willing to testify against those accused of fornication, to initiate any court proceedings or to admit a case against such accused. This is quite clear from the fact that in the absence of the prescribed number of witnesses, the verse prescribes a severe punishment for the person/persons making the accusation.

Thus, according to my understanding of the related verse, the referred opinion of the Muslim jurists is not very accurate.

Furthermore, even if it is accepted that the verse prescribes the number of witnesses to prove a case of fornication, as has generally been derived by the Muslim jurists, it would still not be correct, in my opinion, to draw an analogy between rape and fornication, especially in the case of the requirement of witnesses. I am sure you would agree with me that nothing, besides the fact that both the crimes relate to sex, is common between rape and fornication. It is obvious that in the case of fornication, there is, generally, no aggrieved party, which may be termed as a complainant (in its literal sense). On the contrary, a case of fornication is, generally, initiated with an accusation on two persons (a man and a woman), who have willingly (with mutual consent) indulged in an act considered to be a crime in the Islamic Shari`ah. The reason for this peculiar position of fornication is that - in contrast to other crimes like theft, murder, robbery and even rape - fornication is a crime in which neither of the parties directly involved in it assumes the role of a complainant. The complainant, in the case of fornication, is generally a third party, not directly involved in the crime (which may, therefore, be more accurately termed as an 'accuser').

The position of a rape victim is, obviously, not comparable to that of one of the two (or more) parties to fornication. I, therefore, do not agree with the opinion of the majority of the Muslim jurists, who have drawn an analogy between a rape victim and a party to fornication and, therefore, are of the opinion that the evidence required to prove a case of rape is the same as the one required in proving a case of fornication[1].

In my opinion, the Shari`ah has not given any strict guidelines or rules regarding how to prove a case of rape, just as no strict and universal guidelines and rules have been given by the Shari`ah regarding the methods of proving any other crime. The reason for this silence of the Shari`ah, in the referred case, is quite obvious. We know that the methods employed in evidencing crimes greatly rely upon the human developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines. Thus, the methods that can so easily be employed in the modern day were more or less unimaginable just a few years ago. Had the Shari`ah prescribed any rules regarding the methods of proving a crime, such methods would have become redundant with any developments in the field of forensics and other investigative disciplines.

In view of the above explanation, it is my opinion that the case of rape, as any other crime, except an accusation of fornication, does not require the complainant to provide a given number of witnesses, for the initiation of any legal proceedings. On the contrary, when a victim of rape - which is actually an aggrieved party in a crime rather than a party to it - brings her complaint to an authority, it is not merely an accusation, on the contrary, it is in fact a complaint of an injustice that she has suffered at the hands of the accused. In such a case, the legal authority, if it is satisfied[2] of the complainant's appeal, may initiate any legal proceedings against the accused even if the complainant does not have any witnesses to prove her claim. The case shall, subsequently, be decided on the basis of all such evidence, which is considered admissible by the competent legal authority.


3rd August 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] As should be clear from the preceding paragraphs, in my opinion, the Qur'an has not even given any strict criteria to prove a case of fornication.

[2] This satisfaction of the authority may be based on any grounds admissible in such cases.

http://www.understanding-islam.org/r...estion&qid=396
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
04-14-2005, 09:32 AM
Root I don't get it what don't you understand from the hadith that Haroon posted. From my understanding the woman said this guy raped me.....she didn't have to proof it or bring forward a witness....He was going to be punished...
Reply

Sheikh Haroon
04-14-2005, 05:52 PM
Peace Root.

I cant sum it up better than Chuck.

Regards
Reply

root
04-15-2005, 12:54 PM
Yes I agree that is quite a conclusive piece.

I have two points to make. One of clarity and the other of hypothosis.

The first, is that it seems that 4 witnesses would be required for an adulterers relationship with fornication. In the case of a Muslim, they would require 4 muslim witnesses. Since for the moment we are not dealing with rape but fornication. That is the mutual consent on both parties to engage in sex to which Islamic law seems quite clear.

Yes or No would be a great answer to my above summary.

The second now deals with an hypothosis. Chuck's "cut n paste" job was quite definitive until it reached the very end where I have quoted below.

which is considered admissible by the competent legal authority.
We have already established have we not that whilst their is no such thing as an "islamic state" anywhere on this planet. Because Islam is composed of the Aqeedah (doctrine) and a collection of laws emanating from it, the Islamic State must derive its entire constitution from the Islamic Aqeedah. All of the systems, laws, and regulations must emanate solely from the Islamic Aqeedah and the sources of Shariah

So my hypothosis is thus Shariah law IS the competent legal authority to an Islamic State which makes it inadequate when dealing with rape cases.

The position of a rape victim is, obviously, not comparable to that of one of the two (or more) parties to fornication. I, therefore, do not agree with the opinion of the majority of the Muslim jurists, who have drawn an analogy between a rape victim and a party to fornication and, therefore, are of the opinion that the evidence required to prove a case of rape is the same as the one required in proving a case of fornication
Opinions are all good and well. But opinions are just that. "opinions", so where does this leave an Islamic ruling on rape or indeed what constitutes rape in the eyes of Islamic law. Of course the answer will be an Hypothosis also since their is no Islamic State.

Regards

Root
Reply

mutlib
01-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Hijab is freedom not opsession
.......................
Allah gives and forgives........Man gets and forgets
Reply

HaYa-MiD gIrL
01-21-2008, 11:30 AM
firsl of all ...jazakilahu khayran for ur post
its so important
look..cuz iam arabian i wanna say somthing...
in our comunities there r a lot of girls who dont wear Hijab,,,cuz they feel that it forbids them of wearing some kind of clothes that they want to wear ..they want to be seen by others as u say,,they think that hijab is "retrospective"!!!and they say that the imprtance is in what in head and mind..not in which over the head(hijab)! ......and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
hijab is imprtant thing to show others that u r muslim like the doctors ,policeman..we know them from thier uniform..right?!
and she must show the proud of islam and everything related to it..
my regards
Reply

Muezzin
01-21-2008, 11:37 AM
Question: How did we go from Hijab to rape?

Logical leaps that Frogger would be proud of. If he was real. And possessed the ability to think. Yes.
Reply

sshuraimno1fan
02-02-2008, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by HaYa-MiD gIrL
firsl of all ...jazakilahu khayran for ur post
its so important
look..cuz iam arabian i wanna say somthing...
in our comunities there r a lot of girls who dont wear Hijab,,,cuz they feel that it forbids them of wearing some kind of clothes that they want to wear ..they want to be seen by others as u say,,they think that hijab is "retrospective"!!!and they say that the imprtance is in what in head and mind..not in which over the head(hijab)! ......and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
hijab is imprtant thing to show others that u r muslim like the doctors ,policeman..we know them from thier uniform..right?!
and she must show the proud of islam and everything related to it..
my regards
assalamu alikum so u sed "and i regret thet alot of girls argue about this topic and say that the good manners are the most important thing ...!!! strange!
", so then look at this; a girl wears full hijaab but has a disgusting vulgar mouth? what is the use of that if she is not associating it properly if she does not have good manners, does not pray one single salah?? on the other hand if you had a girl who prays fight times daily, hijaab comes naturally and there's no point forcing girls to wear it because then they will never wear it instead of advising u lot are arguing..
also, why does this whole thread seem to concentrate on the women's hijaab? just like usual everybody has forgotoon all about the hijaab of the man which is to wear a kufi(jabbah) n hat(turban), but everyone always concentrates on the ladies. My advice? Everyone correct themselves/hijaabs before going around and telling others.
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