Trying to understand

[AINR/GINR]

I'm trying to understand Islam.trying to understand how so many humans in the year 2007 can support,follow or believe that there is an all powerful being.One that praises the killing or slaughter of other humans,innocent people who are taken from this earth in the name of their god.women and children. I just watched a video of a teen aged girl stoned to death,her crime,falling in love with a boy of another religion. OH!!!! praise allah!!!!!!Thank allah for giving us the strength to throw rocks at her head until she is dead.Did this act cause any change for islam? Is any muslims life any better now that she's not here?what I witnessed was barbaric and served no religious purpose.NONE!!! Someone please explain how caveman type responses helps or srengthens your belief in allah? because it appears to me that this like all religion is nothing more than brainwashing,started at the earliest possible age,your entire life is one big lie!perpatrated by centuries of lies.It is nothing more than mob mentality,be a part of it or we will kill you and maybe your entire family.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

[Woodrow]

I'm trying to understand Islam.trying to understand how so many humans in the year 2007 can support,follow or believe that there is an all powerful being.One that praises the killing or slaughter of other humans,innocent people who are taken from this earth in the name of their god.women and children. I just watched a video of a teen aged girl stoned to death,her crime,falling in love with a boy of another religion. OH!!!! praise allah!!!!!!Thank allah for giving us the strength to throw rocks at her head until she is dead.Did this act cause any change for islam? Is any muslims life any better now that she's not here?what I witnessed was barbaric and served no religious purpose.NONE!!! Someone please explain how caveman type responses helps or srengthens your belief in allah? because it appears to me that this like all religion is nothing more than brainwashing,started at the earliest possible age,your entire life is one big lie!perpatrated by centuries of lies.It is nothing more than mob mentality,be a part of it or we will kill you and maybe your entire family.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

You have just posted many of the misconceptions about us.

Perhaps if you look at some of the threads you will understand that none of that story reflects the teaching of Islam.

[جوري]

I always enjoy new members with a telescopic view... it makes for good entertainment..

[Malaikah]

I'm trying to understand Islam.

Before I continue, this sentence was very nice and polite, why didn't this theme continue through the rest of your post? :?

trying to understand how so many humans in the year 2007 can support,follow or believe that there is an all powerful being.

Does that fact that we can now make computers and fly planes and go to moon we are self sufficient? What difference does it make if we lived in 1000 BC or 3300 CE? If anything, our new appreciation for life and the world formed based on our understanding of science should only increase our awe at the Power and Might of the Creator- not cause us to be arrogant because we discovered how to replicate DNA.

One that praises the killing or slaughter of other humans,innocent people who are taken from this earth in the name of their god.women and children.

Misconception number 1- since when did Islam allow Muslim to kill innocent people? Are we talking about the same religion? Killing innocents is a MAJOR SIN in Islam. Did you know that the punishment for murder in Islam is death?:rollseyes

I just watched a video of a teen aged girl stoned to death,her crime,falling in love with a boy of another religion.

hmm... okay there is a number of problems here. Firstly, there is no prescribed punishment for falling in love. The punishment if for fornicating (sexual relationships out side of marriage). And the punishment for that is a few lashes, only if the act was witnessed by four people of righteous character... which, in other words, is almost impossible.

Stoning to death is the punishment of the adulterer, i.e. a married man or woman who has sexual intercourse with another man/woman. Again, this act must have been witnessed by four people of righteous character before any one can be sentenced to death... and I mean the whole act, not just witnessing kissing or something.

Umm, so basically is is almost impossible to sentence someone to death for committing adultery.

OH!!!! praise allah!!!!!!Thank allah for giving us the strength to throw rocks at her head until she is dead.

No need for sarcasm. This doesn't sound like the attitude of someone who here is here to learn. Please at least give us the benefit of the doubt!

Did this act cause any change for islam? Is any muslims life any better now that she's not here?what I witnessed was barbaric and served no religious purpose.NONE!!! Someone please explain how caveman type responses helps or srengthens your belief in allah? because it appears to me that this like all religion is nothing more than brainwashing,started at the earliest possible age,your entire life is one big lie!perpatrated by centuries of lies.It is nothing more than mob mentality,be a part of it or we will kill you and maybe your entire family.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

Of course you don't get it. You brain is too busy thinking up different ways to insult us and through lies left, right and centre, you don't seem to have enough room left to rational thinking. :rollseyes

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[snakelegs]

I'm trying to understand Islam.

really???

[جوري]

indeed short of admitting to sin.. very difficult to verify that someone committed adultery-- and certainly punishment of pre-marital is very different from extramarital...

BTW in the united states: Treason is punishable by death!
Which is worst I wonder? treason against one's country or treason against one's religion?

It was narrated that Buraydah ibn al-Haseeb said: A woman from Ghaamid, a branch of al-Azd, came and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, purify me!” He said, “Woe to you! Go back and seek the forgiveness of Allaah and repent to Him.” She said: “I think that you intend to send me back as you sent Maa’iz ibn Maalik back.” He said, “What has happened to you?” She said that she had become pregnant as a result of zina. He said: “Is it you (who has done that)?” She said: “Yes.” He said to her: “(You will not be punished) until you give birth to that which is in your womb.” A man from among the Ansaar sponsored her [i.e., paid for her needs etc] until she delivered (the child). Then he (that Ansaari) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “The Ghaamidi woman has given birth to a child.” He (the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said: “Then we will not stone her and so leave her child with no one to nurse him.” One of the Ansaar stood up and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, let me be responsible for ensuring that he is nursed.” Then she was stoned.

Narrated by Muslim, 1695.

peace!

[vpb]

I don't know where the hadith is but a man went to the Prophet saws and said to him that his wife was doing zina (having sexual relationship outside marriage), and the Prophet saws, asked him 'do you have 4 witness, the man said no , but i just saw her with my eyes, then the Prophet saws said "you either produce proof that 4 man have seen what you saw, or make your back ready for slashesh"), so basiclly even if you see the person doing outside marriage sex, you have to produce 4 witness, or shush, otherwise you get slashed. so it's not like "oh i think he/she was doing zina", or assuming or anything, but you have to bring proof, and when it is cheked about the witneses and all the following stuff, and when they become 100% sure, then they can punish the person, but not just like that, Islam doesn't play with people. Please read , read , read. :)

[vpb]

i found them, here are 2 hadiths, in Sahih Bukhari


Volume 6, Book 60, Number 271:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Hilal bin Umaiya accused his wife of committing illegal sexual intercourse with Sharik bin Sahma' and filed the case before the Prophet. The Prophet said (to Hilal), "Either you bring forth a proof (four witnesses) or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back." Hilal said, "O Allah's Apostle! If anyone of us saw a man over his wife, would he go to seek after witnesses?" The Prophet kept on saying, "Either you bring forth the witnesses or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back." Hilal then said, "By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I am telling the truth and Allah will reveal to you what will save my back from legal punishment." Then Gabriel came down and revealed to him:--

'As for those who accuse their wives...' (24.6-9) The Prophet recited it till he reached: '... (her accuser) is telling the truth.' Then the Prophet left and sent for the woman, and Hilal went (and brought) her and then took the oaths (confirming the claim). The Prophet was saying, "Allah knows that one of you is a liar, so will any of you repent?" Then the woman got up and took the oaths and when she was going to take the fifth one, the people stopped her and said, "It (the fifth oath) will definitely bring Allah's curse on you (if you are guilty)." So she hesitated and recoiled (from taking the oath) so much that we thought that she would withdraw her denial. But then she said, "I will not dishonor my family all through these days," and carried on (the process of taking oaths). The Prophet then said, "Watch her; if she delivers a black-eyed child with big hips and fat shins then it is Sharik bin Sahma's child." Later she delivered a child of that description. So the Prophet said, "If the case was not settled by Allah's Law, I would punish her severely."



Volume 3, Book 48, Number 837:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Hilal bin Umaiya accused his wife before the Prophet of committing illegal sexual intercourse with Sharik bin Sahma.' The Prophet said, "Produce a proof, or else you would get the legal punishment (by being lashed) on your back." Hilal said, "O Allah's Apostle! If anyone of us saw another man over his wife, would he go to search for a proof." The Prophet went on saying, "Produce a proof or else you would get the legal punishment (by being lashed) on your back." The Prophet then mentioned the narration of Lian (as in the Holy Book). (Surat-al-Nur: 24)

[جوري]

Thank you for sharing akhi.. I am sadly not as handy as everyone else with the ahadiths =(
but believe the one I posted also hinted that he gave the lady a chance to repent.. and she CONFESSED /WANTED/to be "purified" of sin.. then he gave her a chance to nurse but someone else said he'd take care of her young one....

Not as barbaric as we are being depicted... but I get the feeling no one cares to read this when they want to only view you under a certain light...

:W:

[Woodrow]

I'm trying to understand Islam.trying to understand how so many humans in the year 2007 can support,follow or believe that there is an all powerful being.One that praises the killing or slaughter of other humans,innocent people who are taken from this earth in the name of their god.women and children. I just watched a video of a teen aged girl stoned to death,her crime,falling in love with a boy of another religion. OH!!!! praise allah!!!!!!Thank allah for giving us the strength to throw rocks at her head until she is dead.Did this act cause any change for islam? Is any muslims life any better now that she's not here?what I witnessed was barbaric and served no religious purpose.NONE!!! Someone please explain how caveman type responses helps or srengthens your belief in allah? because it appears to me that this like all religion is nothing more than brainwashing,started at the earliest possible age,your entire life is one big lie!perpatrated by centuries of lies.It is nothing more than mob mentality,be a part of it or we will kill you and maybe your entire family.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

I do not know for certain which Youtube movie you saw, but if it is the one I saw that was an out right murder and had nothing to do with religion although the killers who comitted the murder and video taped it, tried to give the impression that it was in accordance with Islam. that was not the girls family stoning the girl nor even any accusers, the girl was kidnapped and savagly murdered.

The Joy of Youtube. If you believe all that you see on YouTube, may I interest you in a lifetime subscription to the "National Enquirer" ?

There was a counter reaction against the other group which resulted in nearly 20 deaths.

That whole issue has to do with a tribal war and has nothing to do with Islam.

[Umar001]

I think this is a normal reaction, darn I'd feel the same to some extent.

For example, when the story of my uncle being executed was told to me, with details it made me sick, similar of when I was told of the plight of some family friends, country side men and their children because the soldiers thought that they were 'islamic jihadis' when in fact they were christians.

I was just as angry.

But if we are to try and understand the religion then we should turn back to the sources and derive whether what we see is part of the religion and what mistakes have been carried out by those we have observed executing such acts.

For example, we can look at the laws that Islam places in establishing the punishment for adultery, or in this case the punishment for commiting fornication or for leaving the religion.

[August]

But if we are to try and understand the religion then we should turn back to the sources and derive whether what we see is part of the religion and what mistakes have been carried out by those we have observed executing such acts.

Exactly. You have to understand what the religion actually teaches. But how do you account for all the "Islam" based terrorist organizations? I'm sure that what they do is wrong and against Islam, but why do they do it? Is there something in Islam that can be easily misunderstood? Or is religion simply the best way to mobilize young men with no hope? At any rate, Islamic terrorist groups must be defeated in order to assure the survival of true Islam. They must be defeated with ideas, and I haven't heard the voices of non-violent Muslims nearly as loudly as the advocates of violence. Why is this?

[vpb]

do you guys know what is the most annoying thing in this world in terms of knowledge??
when they bring some non-muslim on TV that doesn't have a clue what he';s talking and they say "ok, here we have X Person tonight, he is an expert in shariah..."
and sometimes you have even muslims who get on tv or any media, and start talking and they know nothing. lollll

[Woodrow]

Exactly. You have to understand what the religion actually teaches. But how do you account for all the "Islam" based terrorist organizations? I'm sure that what they do is wrong and against Islam, but why do they do it? Is there something in Islam that can be easily misunderstood? Or is religion simply the best way to mobilize young men with no hope? At any rate, Islamic terrorist groups must be defeated in order to assure the survival of true Islam. They must be defeated with ideas, and I haven't heard the voices of non-violent Muslims nearly as loudly as the advocates of violence. Why is this?

It is an odd phenomena, at least 80% of the World's Muslims do speak out against terrorism. But, outside of the Mosques the world never hears of it. but, let one Misguided person in an isolated Mosque in a far off land speak in favor of terrorism and it is on the 6 O'clock news world wide.

There have been many threads on that subject posted here there have been many world wide demonstrations against terrorism.

All of us will agree that we need to do more and we do constantly see what we can do as individuals. Every Mosque I attend is very much opposed to terrorism and Every Imam I know speaks against it. I believe any Muslim that can read this will agree this is true were they are also.

[islamirama]

Exactly. You have to understand what the religion actually teaches. But how do you account for all the "Islam" based terrorist organizations? I'm sure that what they do is wrong and against Islam, but why do they do it? Is there something in Islam that can be easily misunderstood? Or is religion simply the best way to mobilize young men with no hope? At any rate, Islamic terrorist groups must be defeated in order to assure the survival of true Islam. They must be defeated with ideas, and I haven't heard the voices of non-violent Muslims nearly as loudly as the advocates of violence. Why is this?

Non-Violent Muslims have voiced out loudly but the media seems to hear and focus only the violent incidents and continously plays those back to the public. Islam is a way of life and not just a religion, so many of these groups have islamic names becuase they are aiming to fight for Islam and defend it from outsiders, regardless of how much knoweldge they have of Islam. Then also there are many groups, like hamas, that are legtimate resistance groups who are fighting within their own land for the freedom of their people. But the western powers have labeled them terrorists organizations and basically any group that stands against them and their doings in those muslim lands. Did you know a UK Commander recently said the insurgents in Iraq are justified in attacking and they have every right to? After all, they are fighting to free that land from an occupation. Lot of things come into play and it's never a clear cut picture on both sides.

[Umar001]

Exactly. You have to understand what the religion actually teaches. But how do you account for all the "Islam" based terrorist organizations? I'm sure that what they do is wrong and against Islam, but why do they do it? Is there something in Islam that can be easily misunderstood? Or is religion simply the best way to mobilize young men with no hope? At any rate, Islamic terrorist groups must be defeated in order to assure the survival of true Islam. They must be defeated with ideas, and I haven't heard the voices of non-violent Muslims nearly as loudly as the advocates of violence. Why is this?

You arise many points, which have urged me to think and I hope this does justice to my views;

* From the outset you agree, that to understand Islam we look at the teachings and not neccesarily the actions of people. So if our purpose is to understand Islam, as that is the claim, then that's it. But if you are trying to understand how some people use Islam to justify actions, or what ingridients lead to the fruits of terrorism then that is another topic all together.#


Some of the questions raise;

I'm sure that what they do is wrong and against Islam, but why do they do it? Is there something in Islam that can be easily misunderstood? Or is religion simply the best way to mobilize young men with no hope?

Are not to do with understanding Islam, but rather understanding the physcology of some Muslims.

With regards to;

They must be defeated with ideas, and I haven't heard the voices of non-violent Muslims nearly as loudly as the advocates of violence. Why is this?

Where have you been listening? Hearing something is dependent on where one listens. Maybe that is why you have not heard the voices of Muslims who are not terrorist.

I hope I have understood.

Eesa.

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

These misconceptions have been answered in other threads too - perhaps you might be interested to read:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...nderstand.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/176386-post34.html

We also have this site which has many articles including commonly misquoted verses from the Qur'an:
http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2

[جوري]

cool.. thanks for info.. better barricade yourself in some fortress the jihadist are coming to a fortress near you

[جوري]

lol-- I wonder if this guy even bothers to read what he posts?.. an ex. below

Babbar Khalsa (BK):
BK is a Sikh movement that aims to establish an independent Khalistan within the Punjab region of India .
Basque Homeland and Liberty (Euskadi ta Askatasuna) (ETA):

What a fantastic cut and paste job (we'll let the Sikhs on the forum handle this one)-- (lump em all together we won't be able to tell the difference?)-- Nicely written, authoritatively delivered, completely nonsensical as usual we applaud you -- You must work in sales or marketing?

[جوري]

Are you projecting? Do you even read what you post? can you not tell the difference between sikhs and Muslims? What is wrong with you?

[جوري]

Well that’s cute and an obvious attempt to sidestep any real attempt at introspection but enjoy your denial. It certainly won’t prevent the continued slaughter of Moslems by other Moslems.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

"obvious attempt to sidestep any real attempt"
Speaking of coherence-- yours is very questionable as evident from the above ;D but thank you-- you are so wise and so full of feelings... thanks for brining us all from the cesspool where we dwell into the age of enlightenment...

[جوري]

Frankly if you had a point or wanted a sincere discussion in a sprachgefuhl and graceful, style we might consider replying back to you.. but even notes of sarcasm you are unworthy of on the account that you do nothing but come here with carpet bombing style of attacks. You don't even read what you "paste" as it seems you can't tell the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim?--

You have a psychological announcement to make for everyone whose opinion differs from yours-- I have a couple of opinions about you too.. But given that I like to adhere to better manners, I'll let it go!...
Eh, maybe this is your way of saving face because you are a small and petty man?!
I don't have all day to get at it tit for tat with you.. if you hate Muslims so much and think them all barbarians, why not go onto a forum that fosters your mentality and style of writing? I hear JihdWatch has an opening!

Thank you for the well wishes--

peace!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And your nothing but a hater.

[Amadeus85]

Then also there are many groups, like hamas, that are legtimate resistance groups who are fighting within their own land for the freedom of their people. But the western powers have labeled them terrorists organizations and basically any group that stands against them and their doings in those muslim lands.

And here you have an answer why so many people connect islam with terrorism-
first you say that you reject terrorism and just after this you say that Hamas is legitimate resistance group ! You condemn terrorism, but Hamas, but Hesbullah..
There is always "but"..
I wonder how many of those imams who condemn terrorism also label Hamas as legitimate resistance group..
And one thing more- is terrorism really good way to win the freedom? Can we call freedom fighters those who target civilians?..I am afraid to know your answer..

[August]

And one thing more- is terrorism really good way to win the freedom? Can we call freedom fighters those who target civilians?..I am afraid to know your answer..

Good question. I can understand opposing the Isralies, or thinking that they are occupiers. But does any of that justify killing civilians? Could anyone tell me what the Qur'an says about killing innocent people to further a just cause? What is the Musilm view about civilians in war?

[جوري]

And here you have an answer why so many people connect islam with terrorism-
first you say that you reject terrorism and just after this you say that Hamas is legitimate resistance group ! You condemn terrorism, but Hamas, but Hesbullah..
There is always "but"..
I wonder how many of those imams who condemn terrorism also label Hamas as legitimate resistance group..
And one thing more- is terrorism really good way to win the freedom? Can we call freedom fighters those who target civilians?..I am afraid to know your answer..

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...
that is really the bottom line of it... Everyone feels justified in what they do irrespective of religion.
Unless you are actually there observing or have a respectful media source for your information, can we have this topic... I am sick of people relying to me their feelings and subjective views in lieu of hard facts.

A gentle reminder that this is comparative and not world's affair.. you want to get all hot and heavy take it else where

peace!

[Amadeus85]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter...
that is really the bottom line of it... Everyone feels justified in what they do irrespective of religion.
Unless you are actually there observing or have a respectful media source for your information, can we have this topic... I am sick of people relying to me their feelings and subjective views in lieu of hard facts.

A gentle reminder that this is comparative and not world's affair.. you want to get all hot and heavy take it else where

peace!

PEACE :D

[جوري]

PEACE :D

Same to you :)

[Woodrow]

I certainly wouldn’t agree with your “80% of muslims” claim as it’s abundantly clear that the global jihad we see is being funded, enabled and supported by moslems.

I have to be concerned when people make the claim that the acts of madness carried out in the name of islam have nothing to do with islam. Let’s examine this for a moment, shall we?

Listed below are the proscribed terrorist organizations as identified by the UK’s Home Office. The US has a similar list but let’s start here:

Quite a long list you posted. I suppose you did not notice that less than 15% of the Worlds Muslims live in the area of the world where those Groups are located.

Yep, nearly 90% of the world's Muslims do not live in the Mideast. Even in the Mideast Not everybody belongs to a Terrorist organization or has terrorist aspirations.

We are very much aware there is a problem with some people using the name Muslim and that many of them are in Mid Eastern Countries. However, there are also legitimate freedom fighters and legitimate political parties in that area that we in the Western world automatically assume to be terrorist organizations simply because the People are Arab and Muslim.

Here in the US we have a number of "White Supremest" groups that have been known to carry out terroristic activities Here are a few.

Actually there are over 4,300 of them that have been followed since the 1990s.

43,941 adherent statistic citations: membership and geography data for 4,300+ religions, churches, tribes, etc."]43,941 adherent statistic citations: membership and geography data for 4,300+ religions, churches, tribes, etc.

I won't cut and paste the names, here is a link to get you started.

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_665.html

Does that mean most American's are White Terrorists?

[جوري]

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_665.html

Does that mean most American's are White Terrorists?

We know of at least one terrorizing our forum ;D
:w:

[Woodrow]

The largest group of Muslims live in Indonesia. How many Indonesian groups do you fear. There are now more Muslims here in the US than in Afghanistan. I have yet to see where any American Muslims have caused any reason for fear. Pakistan is the Country with the third largest number of Muslims. How many Pakistani Terrorists are you aware off. Then the country with the third highest number of Muslims is India. Have you seen any terroristic Muslims in India terrorising the world?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
It's funny you know, I hear all these complaints and negative comments about muslims only on the internet. Never in my whole two years at college and 1 year at Uni have I heard those kinds of comments (some occured in secondary school but comments from chavs don't count for anything).

Perhaps you are wondering what the point is of the above statement. Here it is in PLAIN ENGLISH: Do you know of any muslims in REAL LIFE (i.e on a name to name basis) that fits the negative description? That's what I am trying to understand.



P.s; by all means, drop in leicester at any time. Enjoy the sun (when it comes out, it is really something), the sea (ok I will admit it is only a washbrook) the sights (shires shopping centre anyone?) and most importantly the mutual respect given to all members of faiths. Oh my, I almost forgot: you should also visit maryland chicken!

[Woodrow]

:sl:
It's funny you know, I hear all these compaints and negative comments about muslims only on the internet. Never in my whole two years at college and 1 year at Uni have I heard those kinds of comments (some occured in secondary school but comments from chavs don't count for anything).

Perhaps you are wondering what the point is of the above statement. Here it is in PLAIN ENGLISH: Do you know of any muslims in REAL LIFE (i.e on a name to name basis) that fits the negative description? That's what I am trying to understand


I would translate that in polish, but my local polish to english website is under going some serious maintenance.

P.s; by all means, drop in leicester at any time. Enjoy the sun (when it comes out, it is really something), the sea (ok I will admit it is only a washbrook)the sights (shires shopping centre anyone?) and most importantly the mutual respect given to all members of faiths.

:w:
Thanks Brother.

Good point How many terrorists do any of these people personaly know. I Would also like to ask the poster to stop in and visit Austin. We make up a sizable population here and have excellent relationships with our non-Muslim neighbors.

[snakelegs]

:w:
Thanks Brother.

Good point How many terrorists do any of these people personaly know. I Would also like to ask the poster to stop in and visit Austin. We make up a sizable population here and have excellent relationships with our non-Muslim neighbors.

ultimately, this is the only thing that will change the stereotype - the interaction between muslims and non-muslims. many non-muslims have never really known a muslim.
(this isn't to deny that there are real problems out there - there are, but most muslims are just as boring as everybody else.)

[Woodrow]

I don’t fear any. However, that’s because I’m not a Buddhist living there. Do you know what is taking place in the south of that nation?

Do you know who the "White Tigers" (Tamil) are? they are not "peaceful" Buddhists, they are terrorists terrorizing Muslims.

http://www.sinhaya.com/massacre.html

Have you missed the news of the “blind Sheik” who had this little disagreement with New Yorkers and the WTC?

He was a terrorist and was trying to get a foot hold in the US. But, of course you know that he was not an American Citizen.

In second place to Iran, Pakistan is a leading promoter of Islamic terrorism. What is it that you think is taught in the local Madrassa?

Are you a student there? I believe several members of this forum are, perhaps they will see this and reply.

I don’t know, I hear of train bombings and bombings in their cities quite often. Shall I post a few search results?

Please do also be certain to check the date and see who was responsible. I am not denying there are terrorist groups. But, they are from only a very small area and the overwhelming majority of the World's Muslims do not support them. Earlier I said 80% but I suspect it will be more than that who oppose Terrorism.

BTW I am a Native born American with skin as white as snow and I have what can be described best as a Connecticut Yankee Accent, although I been a Texas Cowboy for a long time.

Ever before reverting to Islam I have never had any fear of any Muslims. I can honestly say that no matter what country I was in, I would always be treated fairly and honestly in the Islamic communities.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Athiesm doesnt have a clean slate either. Not BIG but not clean either. Anyone recall the Soviet Union:? :rollseyes

[Woodrow]

Athiesm doesnt have a clean slate either. Not BIG but not clean either. Anyone recall the Soviet Union:? :rollseyes

:w:

True, all of us have people within our ranks that wear the name but do not represent the majority.

Stereotyping is always bad. we must always remember that we are individuals and each of us is responsible for our own actions.

[Trumble]

Do you know who the "White Tigers" (Tamil) are? they are not "peaceful" Buddhists, they are terrorists terrorizing Muslims.

They are indeed not peaceful Buddhists, because they are are not Buddhists at all. They are Hindus. It is the Sinhalese population that is predominantly Buddhist.

Please research more carefully.


That said, on a lighter note (not that one is really appropriate), even Buddhist monks are not immune from violence!

A "peace protest" in Sri Lanka turns violent when Buddhist monks begin fighting with demonstrators.

About 1,000 people were listening to speakers in a park when hardline monks took the stage and put up banners. They believe the government is too easy on the Tamil Tiger rebels.

Moderate Buddhist monks were already on stage when fists began flying. Witnesses say no one was seriously injured.

Pro-peace monk Madampawe Assagee, says, "They were saying we should go to war... We like to listen to other opinions so we let them do that but then they started fighting and we couldn't control some of our people. They tried to make it a big fight but we settled it in a few minutes."

wayodd

[جوري]

Athiesm doesnt have a clean slate either. Not BIG but not clean either. Anyone recall the Soviet Union:? :rollseyes

Here sister a way for you to recognize a toxic person... Thus with any luck try avoiding them....
They kneel to a Porcelain god then imbue whatever info. it dishes out to them, by way of osmosis-- sometimes direct suction-- then when they are all filled up-- they hurl it out on various forums...

peace!

[Woodrow]

They are indeed not peaceful Buddhists, because they are are not Buddhists at all. They are Hindus. It is the Sinhalese population that is predominantly Buddhist.

Please research more carefully.


That said, on a lighter note (not that one is really appropriate), even Buddhist monks are not immune from violence!



wayodd

I apologise Trumble. I didn't look far enough. I was just looking fast enough to show that they were not Muslim. But, no matter what they are, they do not represent anybody except themselves.

we all have our share of wackos

[snakelegs]

If you had a tough time making friends, just try to think of all the good things you can do to accomplish your own destruction... Like helping out good people like this: Acting Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Sheikh Ahmad Bahr, From Hamas, In Friday Sermon in Sudan

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

:rollseyes

[Woodrow]

The person who claims they have a duty to emulate a higher being and follow higher rules, and then doesn't?

My expectation is that if religion is so beneficial that it must be forced on all (as is the belief of many Moslems, then it follows adherents to it should be better people. If religious beliefs make you less tolerant, more violent, then of what good is it?

The person who claims they have a duty to emulate a higher being and follow higher rules, and then doesn't?

we do have a specific name for them. we call them hypoctites and they are not very well thought of.

My expectation is that if religion is so beneficial that it must be forced on all (as is the belief of many Moslems, then it follows adherents to it should be better people. If religious beliefs make you less tolerant, more violent, then of what good is it?

The true teaching of that is:

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

I doubt if you know of any person who was forced to be a Muslim. I doubt if you have ever even had a Muslim ask you to become a Muslim.

[جوري]

So much for freedom from religion......

[don532]

Here sister a way for you to recognize a toxic person... Thus with any luck try avoiding them....
They kneel to a Porcelain god then imbue whatever info. it dishes out to them, by way of osmosis-- sometimes direct suction-- then when they are all filled up-- they hurl it out on various forums...

peace!

I haven't followed the whole thread, but as stated by a comedian I have heard, it don't matter who ya are, that's funny, right there. Good one, Ambrosia.

I hope you don't own the rights to that. I'd like to use it in the future.

[Woodrow]

That's fine. Honorable even. It just seems to be the exception.

Theists define outside of theism any group that engages in behavior later deemed to be considered anti-thetical to the theism in question. For instance, Hitler was not banished from the Catholic Church (the Vatican) at all during his reign. Only AFTER he was vanquished and only after the world expressed outrage at his acts of brutality, and only AFTER the deaths of over 20 million people in WW2 did the theists start to argue that "Hitler wasn't religious".

Yes he was. And his totalitarian views and hatreds grew from his religious upbringing.

This is merely an expansion of Jaques Maritains ill-conceived notion that if one is not a Catholic, one is an atheist by definition, and if one is an atheist by definition, one is also mentally insane by definition. Hitler was religious, he proclaimed it publically, and theists can claim he wasn't until the sun goes out and it won't change the fact that he was.

We are seeing the same thing with Islam now -- "Oh," they cry, "These terrorists hijacked and perverted Islam".

Well, no they didn't. One can make the case that the Quran calls for jihad against the infidel. Moslems have also to come to grips with the fact that their religious views can be a wellspring of divisiveness and hatred. Any belief system that asserts, "Believe in this or be condemned to everlasting torment" will have precisely such an effect.




Then how does one reconcile that with:

1. Qur'an & Sunnah [Examples of Islam's "light of justice and glory."]:
o Say: "You people! I am God's emissary to you all..." —Qur'an 7:158

o Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued. —Qur'an 9:29

o It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the True Faith that he may exalt it above all religions, though the idolaters abhor it. —Qur'an 9:33

o We have sent you forth to all mankind, so that you may give them good news and forewarn them. But most men have no knowledge. —Qur'an 34:28

o This is but an admonition: an eloquent Koran to exhort the living and to pass judgment on the unbelievers. —Qur'an 36:70

o Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah. Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me." —Sahih Bukhari 84.59

2.Sunnah:

o Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "If someone changes his deen [faith, religion —ed.] - strike his neck!" —Muwatta Malik 36.18.15

o I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." —Sahih Bukhari 84.57

3.Qur'an & Sunnah, et al.:

o Those that believe in God and the Last Day will not beg you to exempt them from fighting with their wealth and with their persons. —Qur'an 9:44

o Therefore fight for the cause of God You are accountable for none but yourself. Rouse the faithful: perchance God will overthrow the might of the unbelievers. Mightier is God and more terrible is His punishment. —Qur'an 4:84

o I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: A group of people from my Umma will continue to fight in obedience to the Command of Allah, remaining dominant over their enemies. Those who will oppose them shall not do them any harm. They will remain ill in this condition until the Hour [al-Qiyamah—the Last Day, Day of Judgment —ed.] overtakes them. —Sahih Muslim, 20.4721

o "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live." —Bukhari, 4.87

o Defense of Muslim Lands, Ch. 4, Sheikh Abduallh Azzam

o A bearded young man named Nurullah, introducing himself as a student, pointed to a fresh board nearby that has been prepared for the names of the latest martyrs, men who died fighting with the Taliban after Sept. 11, and said, "Jihad will continue until doomsday, or until America is defeated, either way." —Bin Laden Stirs Struggle on Meaning of Jihad, NY Times, January 27, 2002




As you do, I live in the U.S. where our secular laws prevent anyone from forcing religion on anyone else. Freedom of religion is default freedom from religion.

There is no state mandated religion which does in fact compel religious belief.

Quite a list. Actually they are the very same type questions that kept me from reverting until I was 65 years old. I am not going to even attempt to answer all of them at this moment. Each of these points has been discussed on this forum many times.

I will just touch briefly and state that to understand those quotes you need to take them in full context of what they were written in reference to and that they are not stand alone quotes.

[جوري]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but as stated by a comedian I have heard, it don't matter who ya are, that's funny, right there. Good one, Ambrosia.

I hope you don't own the rights to that. I'd like to use it in the future.

I know this if off topic-- but I could hardly contain myself while posting it-- it really seemed to fit... I went to get money from the ATM 20mins ago and thought-- so this is what it means to laugh all the way to the bank?...
You are allowed to use it any time... though honest truth to G-D it was my own work.. well-- save for the demonstration of course! I actually thought it was drawn in good taste..:laugh:

peace to you D

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
A page and a half later yet still no answer.

Yawn.

[jzcasejz]

That whole issue has to do with a tribal war and has nothing to do with Islam.

This thread was made after that dude saw a video and thought it was in the name of Islaam. But the quote above clearly proves him wrong...so I guess this thread is done 'n' dusted.

:threadclo <-- Just kidding.

JazakAllaah Khayr Woodrow. =] :thumbs_up

[Woodrow]

Agreed.