What scholars say about the Niqab controversy in the West

[Abu Zakariya]

:sl:

Here is an interesting scholarly perspective on the whole Niqab controversy:

Lifting the Veil – A Consideration of Circumstances by Sheikh Sâmî al-Mâjid, professor at al-Imâm Islamic University, Riyadh

[islamirama]

There is no controversy

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

[NobleMuslimUK]

There is no controversy

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

Its a highly controversial issue, since a lot of muslims dont know about it, the sisters that wear niqab in the west are either opressed by the authorities or the public in the regard that they are not integrating by hiding their face.

[Sami Zaatari]

well if the situation reaches the point where muslimah's are being opressed and treated badly for wearing a niqab then its the time to leave that country for a muslim one where she can freely practice her deen with no harrasment from infidels. :)

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[Abu Zakariya]

There is no controversy

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

Did you even read the article? It wasn't about the ruling about the niqab, it was about the situation Muslim women find themselves in if they wear it. Are you aware of the comments by Jack Straw, for instance? That is what I'm refering to when I use the word "controversy".

[Pk_#2]

well if the situation reaches the point where muslimah's are being opressed and treated badly for wearing a niqab then its the time to leave that country for a muslim one where she can freely practice her deen with no harrasment from infidels. :)

Any places you would reccomend?

yay Yemen/Indonesia? :D

[Sami Zaatari]

yemen and indonesia is good, both countires dont harass muslim women who were niqabs, sadly tunis and turkey cant be counted in the list to emigrate to, since their becoming worst than non-muslim countries in regard to the niqab and even the hijab itself!

[islamirama]

well you (pl) live in a kuffar land and expect them to give you your islamic rights, even if they post about freedom of speech and religion and all that crap?

Its a highly controversial issue, since a lot of muslims dont know about it, the sisters that wear niqab in the west are either opressed by the authorities or the public in the regard that they are not integrating by hiding their face.

The basic principle is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and on the basis of common sense.


In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): “In what (condition) were you?” They reply: “We were weak and oppressed on the earth.” They (angels) say: “Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?” Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!”
[al-Nisa’ 4:97]


In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.


http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...sown%20muslims

[MTAFFI]

Its a highly controversial issue, since a lot of muslims dont know about it, the sisters that wear niqab in the west are either opressed by the authorities or the public in the regard that they are not integrating by hiding their face.

You know I think this is really just not true, I live in the west and I have talked about this with many of my friends and colleagues. Really I havent met anyone who thinks a woman is oppressed just because of how she dresses, I think the media may be trying to focus on that a little to draw people into a story but I dont think that is the actual thought that goes through peoples heads. Everyone I have talked to I asked "Do you think Muslim women are oppressed if they cover themselves in a Niqab" (which I usually had to explain what it was) and they would answer "No, I think that person came from the middle east" or "No I think that person is a Muslim".

Now as far as not integrating, I must say, they are not integrating. But that is the wonderful thing about the US, you dont have to integrate if you dont want to, as long as you do it without wanting a job or wanting some sort of special US treatment. My question is if you dont want to integrate why come to the US? We are not an Islamic society and we dont conform to help other integrate, everyone knows what to expect when they come to the US and everyone knows that you will appear different or "stand out" if you choose to dress like that.

[islamirama]

yemen and indonesia is good, both countires dont harass muslim women who were niqabs, sadly tunis and turkey cant be counted in the list to emigrate to, since their becoming worst than non-muslim countries in regard to the niqab and even the hijab itself!

Morocco also banned hijaab.

Saudi and uae are good too for letting you practice islam.

[Sami Zaatari]

Morocco also banned hijaab.

Saudi and uae are good too for letting you practice islam.

i knew morroco would do it! i wanted to mention them but was unsure, how predictable, yes uae is very good, although they allow lots of kufr acts to take place in their country, they still dont ban any Islamic practice as others do. as for Saudia they are the best place to go if you want the closest thing to a real sharia society.

[islamirama]

You know I think this is really just not true, I live in the west and I have talked about this with many of my friends and colleagues. Really I havent met anyone who thinks a woman is oppressed just because of how she dresses, I think the media may be trying to focus on that a little to draw people into a story but I dont think that is the actual thought that goes through peoples heads. Everyone I have talked to I asked "Do you think Muslim women are oppressed if they cover themselves in a Niqab" (which I usually had to explain what it was) and they would answer "No, I think that person came from the middle east" or "No I think that person is a Muslim".

Now as far as not integrating, I must say, they are not integrating. But that is the wonderful thing about the US, you dont have to integrate if you dont want to, as long as you do it without wanting a job or wanting some sort of special US treatment. My question is if you dont want to integrate why come to the US? We are not an Islamic society and we dont conform to help other integrate, everyone knows what to expect when they come to the US and everyone knows that you will appear different or "stand out" if you choose to dress like that.

It's a controversy in UK apparently and europe, the narrow minded dumb british wants everyone to be like them exactly. Bunch of ill mannered poor english dorns.

I think of USA as a salad bowl not melting pot. Everyone has their traditions and values hey hold onto wether they are muslims, hindus, italians, etc but at the same time they all try to get along. Unlike UK, You won't hear someone calling you "paki" walking down the streets unless you're in a redneck area.

[islamirama]

i knew morroco would do it! i wanted to mention them but was unsure, how predictable, yes uae is very good, although they allow lots of kufr acts to take place in their country, they still dont ban any Islamic practice as others do. as for Saudia they are the best place to go if you want the closest thing to a real sharia society.

yes, morocco is trying to force it's citizens to be like kuffars. Dubai is very modern, like LA, but sharjah is very conservative. Even in Saudi you have liberal and conservative cities. Somali had niqaabis when Islamic courts ruled, since US and ethopians invaded it, they are ripping the hijab of the women and forcing everyone to not wear it. France and Turkey banned hijab while some european countries are banning niqaab.

[NobleMuslimUK]

The controversy boils down to the fact that, in Europe they dont want women to wear the niqab. Their defence sadly is that a lot of muslim countries have banned the niqab, the west relates this fact that since some of the muslim countries see the niqab as a curb to moving forward, then it must be true. Such as Turkey and now Morroco. I dont consider these countries as Muslim.

[Amadeus85]

well if the situation reaches the point where muslimah's are being opressed and treated badly for wearing a niqab then its the time to leave that country for a muslim one where she can freely practice her deen with no harrasment from infidels. :)

Thats true man !
If you dont like the laws in one country, please- leave it!

[islamirama]

Thats true man !
If you dont like the laws in one country, please- leave it!

does that give one the right to make arrogrant laws and at the same time boast about freedom of religion, equality and all that superficial crap?

[Amadeus85]

does that give one the right to make arrogrant laws and at the same time boast about freedom of religion, equality and all that superficial crap?

Yes. Freedom of religion doesnt mean to allow everything what one believer wants.Everyone must obey the law.
As i said again, if one doesnt like the law, or can't obey it, he/she should leave this country.

[islamirama]

Yes. Freedom of religion doesnt mean to allow everything what one believer wants.Everyone must obey the law.
As i said again, if one doesnt like the law, or can't obey it, he/she should leave this country.

Perhaps you can tell me, what problem does a person have of someone wearing a niqaab and walking down the street? If it doesn't bother you to see a semi-naked woman then why a fully covered one? Freedom of religion means to let others practice their faith, and no one here is being affected by it. Whether a person walks down the street naked or covered has no bearing on how your life or anyone else's life will be affected. Now if your belief is to kidnap my cat and scarfice it then i can see having problems with you and freedom of religion.

[Amadeus85]

Perhaps you can tell me, what problem does a person have of someone wearing a niqaab and walking down the street? If it doesn't bother you to see a semi-naked woman then why a fully covered one? Freedom of religion means to let others practice their faith, and no one here is being affected by it. Whether a person walks down the street naked or covered has no bearing on how your life or anyone else's life will be affected. Now if your belief is to kidnap my cat and scarfice it then i can see having problems with you and freedom of religion.

Ok dear islamirama.I will answer your question.So first of all i dont agree with French decision that girls in schools can't wear hijabs.For me it is silly law, because hijabs shouldnt be a problem for anybody.But with the niqaab problem is different.
First of all, women who wears a niqaab cant integrate with society.She can't get know with neighbours, other people dont even know who is this person who is walking right now. She is isolated from others.
And tell me how do you imagine picture of woman in niqaab on her Identity Card? :)

[islamirama]

Ok dear islamirama.I will answer your question.So first of all i dont agree with French decision that girls in schools can't wear hijabs.For me it is silly law, because hijabs shouldnt be a problem for anybody.But with the niqaab problem is different.
First of all, women who wears a niqaab cant integrate with society.She can't get know with neighbours, other people dont even know who is this person who is walking right now. She is isolated from others.
And tell me how do you imagine picture of woman in niqaab on her Identity Card? :)

Here's a passage from an article on another thread on this "making contact" issue you raised

It is nonsense to suggest that by wearing a niqab I don't take part in society. When you walk through the streets or go shopping, how much contact do you really have even without a niqab? It is not as if you talk to everyone you meet.

You should read the story of this dutch revert on niqaab :)
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...rts-islam.html

As for the ID issue, niqaab is not glued to the face that it never comes off. She can take the niqaab off to show her face to police officer, doctor, judge, wherever it is necessary. And also, did you know that there are many niqabi women in US who have taken a license photo with their niqaab on? Now that's what i call freedom of religion, something them brits should from US.

[Amadeus85]

And also, did you know that there are many niqabi women in US who have taken a license photo with their niqaab on? Now that's what i call freedom of religion, something them brits should from US.[/QUOTE]


I think that USA is too political correct. Anyway, i still think that a picture of a woman wearing niqaab in id card is something so hiliarious that only Monthy Pyton or Borat could imagine something like that LOL! :D :D :D

But it still doesnt solve this problem. We may both dont agree with european laws, but since we live in Europe, we must obey it.
Law is law.
Remember dear Islamirama that immigrants who come to other country are guests and they should behave like guests.

Obeying the laws and integrating is not their privelege, but a DUTY.

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:

Regarding ID and other official documents that require pictures, I don't mind lifting my Niqab. These are legitimate needs.
From my personal experience, I've never been attacked or verbally abused in any way. I go to a university here and many people, regardless of what they may feel inside, are respectful and polite.
When I was in the airport, they had to verify my identification on the passport; one of the female employees took me to restroom and verified my ID there.

Obeying the laws and integrating is not their privelege, but a DUTY.

Obeying the law, yes, a Muslim immigrant should obey the law as long as the law doesn’t contradict the Islamic Law. But as far as integration is concerned, that’s an individual choice. Why should someone be forced integrate into something below their moral standards? demanding someone to integrate contradicts the principles of freedom.

wasalam
-SI-

[Amadeus85]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

Why should someone be forced integrate into something below their moral standards? demanding someone to integrate contradicts the principles of freedom.

wasalam
-SI-

Thnx God that more and more european politics have different opinion than you.

As i said again, when i come to other country as a immigrant i am guest and i have to behave like guest.

When western women come to Egypt or Pakistan , they dont walk on streets in very short mini skirts and short much reaviling t shirts. But it is also against the principles of freedom. :)

Regards.

[Muezzin]

Thnx God that more and more european politics have different opinion than you.

As i said again, when i come to other country as a immigrant i am guest and i have to behave like guest.

When western women come to Egypt or Pakistan , they dont walk on streets in very short mini skirts and short much reaviling t shirts. But it is also against the principles of freedom. :)

Regards.

Thing is, those countries don't go on and on about how much freedom they offer, unlike certain European countries.

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

Thnx God that more and more european politics have different opinion than you.

I know what u mean. thank God I don't think like those European politicians.

As i said again, when i come to other country as a immigrant i am guest and i have to behave like guest.

When western women come to Egypt or Pakistan , they dont walk on streets in very short mini skirts and short much reaviling t shirts. But it is also against the principles of freedom. :)

Regards.

egypt, pakistan and other muslim countries doesn't preach about principles of freedom. The US and other western countries do. why does it bother you if immigrants choose to lead a different lifestyle than yours. your opposition contradicts the principles of freedom.

-SI-

[Amadeus85]

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do what he/she wants. And why it bothers me that immigrants dont want to integrate?
Because in France for example there are suburbs where police, taxis, and native French can't go.Those immigrants who didnt want to integrate burned thousands of cars, shops, and buildings some time ago in whole France.
Because In France there was many examples of immigrants who didnt want to integrate and who practiced their own traditions- for example man from Algeria beat his wife with a cable because she went to doctor who had to examine her body.
And guess what he said in court? He said that his tradition allows him to do
that !
Because in Germany most of turkish immigrants dont even bother to learn german language ! They have turkish newspapers, turkish tv, turkish radiostations, turkish shops.
Because some number of girls is killed every year in Holland, Germany and Sweden as a result of honour morders.
Because i still remember that during football match between France and Algeria in Paris, young French with arabic roots who lived ( and was born ) in France sung Algerian hymn, not the French one !
Because those who prepared and commited suicidal attacks (London,Madrit) also didn't want to integrate and the one who killed Theo Van Gogh also.
Because in Europe religion and state are separated and laws cant be motivated by religion.

[siFilam]

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do what he/she wants. And why it bothers me that immigrants dont want to integrate?
Because in France for example there are suburbs where police, taxis, and native French can't go.Those immigrants who didnt want to integrate burned thousands of cars, shops, and buildings some time ago in whole France.
Because In France there was many examples of immigrants who didnt want to integrate and who practiced their own traditions- for example man from Algeria beat his wife with a cable because she went to doctor who had to examine her body.
And guess what he said in court? He said that his tradition allows him to do
that !
Because in Germany most of turkish immigrants dont even bother to learn german language ! They have turkish newspapers, turkish tv, turkish radiostations, turkish shops.
Because some number of girls is killed every year in Holland, Germany and Sweden as a result of honour morders.
Because i still remember that during football match between France and Algeria in Paris, young French with arabic roots who lived ( and was born ) in France sung Algerian hymn, not the French one !
Because those who prepared and commited suicidal attacks (London,Madrit) also didn't want to integrate and the one who killed Theo Van Gogh also.
Because in Europe religion and state are separated and laws cant be motivated by religion.

You took isolated events to support you view that immigrants should abandon their traditions and culture when they migrate to another country. You are completely ignoring the advantages of diversity. You have to expect diversity and differences if you believe in democracy and freedom.
There are many incidents in history where young people resorted to violent means to express their frustration and anger towards the government. Domestic violence is limited to certain culture or tradition. It happens everywhere.
Every culture has its negatives and positives. y does it bother if someone wants to sung Algerain hymn?
Those who carried out terrorist activities acted on their ignorance and corrupt political ideologies.
Actually European laws are motivated by religion to certain extent.

-SI-

[skhalid]

1. It is unlawful for a Muslim man to look lustfully at a woman who is not his wife, regardless of who the woman is or how she is dressed. If a man deliberately does so, then he is sinning.

2. It is unlawful for a Muslim woman to present herself in any way with the deliberate intention of inciting the sexual desire of any man besides her husband. If she does so, then she is sinning.

this is interesting....the first one especially coz men these days..and the second...well no comment!!!

[NobleMuslimUK]

this is interesting....the first one especially coz men these days..and the second...well no comment!!!

:sl:
LOL sister it works both ways, both sides have to do their part not just men.:)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

:salamext:

The matter of covering the face is something about which there is legitimate scholarly disagreement. The majority of scholars hold the view that it is not obligatory for the woman to cover her face, though many of these scholars consider it obligatory in cases where sexual temptation is feared. However, there are others who consider it obligatory for women in general, and they have evidence to support their opinion. Their view is to be respected. Likewise, a Muslim who holds either view on the matter has a right to do so and this also should be respected.

A Muslim who does not consider the face veil to be obligatory should not dismiss or belittle the needs of those who do. Likewise, a Muslim who advocates covering the face has no right to look down upon those who do not.

MashaAllah. You get sisters from both sides being hostile about this issue. In these matters we should be lenient, considering there is big ikhtilaaf amongst the scholars.

[S_87]

When western women come to Egypt or Pakistan , they dont walk on streets in very short mini skirts and short much reaviling t shirts.

Regards.

peace

have you ever been egypt? because non muslims do so wear shorts and tank tops, bikinis by the beach etc. infact, even many egyptian youth are out and about in western clothing....same goes for tourists and some locals in places like dubai,lebanon etc