Westerners disrespecting Muslim/Arab culture

[Sami Zaatari]

westerners often complain of how 'muslims' dont respect their culture in their countries, but what about the westeners in our country? well heres one article highlighting the disrespect that people from the west do in our countries:

Topless woman at beach sparks 'cover up' call
By Zoi Constantine and Emmanuelle Landais, Staff Reporters



Dubai: A recent incident involving a woman seen topless on a Jumeirah public beach has sparked calls from residents for more information to be made available on the UAE's cultural environment.

With millions of tourists and thousands of new residents flocking to Dubai every year, greater awareness about and respect for the customs of the UAE is needed, say residents.

Despite being aware public nudity is illegal in the UAE, the British woman in her early twenties told Gulf News, "I knew that it wasn't the right thing to do, but I couldn't find my bikini top so I decided to go without.

"I didn't want to go all the way back to Satwa to get my top, and tried to cover up when men walked by, but there weren't too many people on the beach, so I didn't think it was a problem."

While there are signs on Dubai's public beaches detailing the rules and regulations regarding conduct on the beach, dress code is not included.

According to the director of Dubai Municipality's public parks and horticultural department, Ahmad Mohammad Abdul Karim, there are no plans at present to add dress code regulations.

"Conduct on the beach should be like it is in any public area ... we would encourage people of different nationalities to respect the culture of the UAE," he said.

Abdul Karim stressed on Dubai's reputation as a diverse and "open" city, but said that people should take others into consideration when visiting a public place such as a beach.

"These days, beaches are attracting different nationalities and attitudes."

The responsibility lies with the community as a whole, including authorities, the public, employers and hotels to explain the cultural sensitivities of the UAE, Abdul Karim said.

Currently, promotional material published in 13 languages, including "advice on clothing," is distributed by the Dubai Tourism and Commerce Marketing (DTCM) in hotels and hotel apartments.

"Compared with certain parts of the Middle East, Dubai has a very relaxed dress code. At the swimming pools or on the beaches, trunks, swim-suits and bikinis are quite acceptable," Eyad Ali Abdul Rahman, DTCM's Executive Director of Media Relations said in a statement. "Visitors are required to wear in public clothes which adequately cover the body."

Responsibility also rests with visitors to find out what is appropriate and what is not, said Sherifa Madgwick, General Manager of the Shaikh Mohammad Centre for Cultural Understanding.

Dubai An Emirati businesswoman, L.A., 35, recalls being highly offended last year while she was fasting.

"I once saw a tourist during Ramadan crossing Jumeirah Beach Road wearing her bikini and eating an ice cream ... It definitely is offensive to see such incidents here because it offends the local culture ... I blame the tourists who have no consideration to learn about our culture.

"I also blame the authorities for not being more stringent with rules and regulations. All tourists should be given a booklet with guidelines of things not to do during their visit."

Khuloud, a 23-year-old UAE national from Sharjah, urged the media to do more to explain to people about the country's cultural sensitivities.

"I sometimes feel as though our culture is being overridden by others," she said. "Many people do respect that they are in an Arab and Muslim country, but many do not. I will respect those who respect me and my culture."

George Alexandro, 38, an Italian academic, said topless sunbathing does not offend him, but women who do it are probably unaware that it is inappropriate.

"I think some people do not know how offensive it can be. I have seen women go topless in hotels in Dubai and sometimes even at Jumeirah Beach Park," said Alexandro, adding that the time may have come for 'No Nudity' signs to be placed on beaches.

Violators face six-month imprisonment

According to UAE lawyer Mohammad Al Shaiba, "public indecency" - including excessively revealing clothing and nudity - is prohibited in public spaces under UAE law and carries stiff penalties.

As per Article 358 of the Penal Code, Federal Law No 3 of 1987, amended by Federal Law No 34 of 2005, "anyone who commits any indecent acts in public will be penalised by imprisonment for a period of no less than six months." [http://gulfnews.com/nation/Police_an...10123731.html]

so how about you westerners start respecting our culture instead of acting its all one way traffic and that you guys are like angels in our country, perhaps once realize that your not perfect then maybe we can all sit down and come to an understanding, sadly i dont see that happening any time soon since the west doesnt seem to want to accept that fact that they are not perfect, it is much easier for them to blame and complain on others.

and btw, this article is like a taboo, do not think this is once in a blue moon thing, i live in dubai, and i have seen far worst than this, westerners walking drunk and vomiting on the street, walking half naked and flirting etc etc and this doesnt only happen in uae, it happens in many other muslim countries such as egypt, morroco, lebanon etc etc it is sad that it is under-reported.

[Woodrow]

It is an interesting article and it is true that many Westerners do not follow the laws of the land when visiting outside the USA. Sadly, many Westerners think the laws in non-Western countries are much more relaxed. There are many misconceptions on both sides.

I do not know if there are many people in this forum that this article would apply to, But, if it applies to just one and that person sees it, perhaps some misconceptions can be avoided.

[Sami Zaatari]

The carping about women going topless seems a bit petty.

The carnage we see in Iraq and elsewhere, where Moslems are slaughtering other Moslems seems, at least to me, disrespectful. You’re too consumed with trivial choices people make.

Why not show a little respect for things that matter – like human life.

wow you do exactly as i say, you like to blame others as usual, notice he changes topic, and starts blaming muslims as i said they do thank you for proving my point, this is why we will never reach an understanding.

and you just trying to brush this issue aside wont work, in the west your all up in arms about women wearing hijabs, and niqabs, and now all of a sudden dress wear or lack of it isnt a real big issue but just something trivial and who cares about it?

anyway i dont want to get into the topic of killing because i can show alot of it being done by your people, but that isnt the thread topic, so rather than diverting the issue stick to the topic instead of playing 'lets blame and attack the muslims for everything' game, or you cant do that?

see folks, when we show how they disrespect our culture in terms of their dress code, they act like ohhhh muslims are so petty they just nagging about how we dress! but as any of you know, the niqab has been all over front pages of western media as if this dress is the end of the world and is what keeps us apart from each other, or the hijab etc. when we attack their dress code, they play it down, why? why the double standards 24-7 in your methods? and then you ask why muslims in general are sick of you guys. take a look at yourselves and you will see why, i mean its not too hard to get, but as i said the west never wants to accept this, they just find it easier to blame muslims for everything as the last post did!

[Sami Zaatari]

What a drama queen.

and now the mocking and insulting, keep it up, you just show you are not able to discuss the facts and your own shortcommings which i am not suprised by, you just prove every point i make, thank you.

would you please make comments related to the thread topic instead of diverting and making useless comments? it would be helpful thank you

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[Woodrow]

All comments are to be related to the topic.

[Muezzin]

The carping about women going topless seems a bit petty.

The carnage we see in Iraq and elsewhere, where Moslems are slaughtering other Moslems seems, at least to me, disrespectful. You’re too consumed with trivial choices people make.

Why not show a little respect for things that matter – like human life.

Way to miss the point, dude.

The first post is about cultural misunderstandings. The carnage in Iraq is horrendously bad, and yes, things should stay in perspective, but the points the article make are valid.

Just as Muslims should respect the laws of non-Muslim lands they are in, so too should non-Muslims respect the laws of the Muslim lands they are in.

[Amadeus85]

First of all- topless sunbathing is not fundament of western values, so dont connect only nudity with Western World :). You cant prove me that asian or african women dont sunbath topless.

Anyway, so now you see what we feel seeing women in full niqaab clothes on european streets. We also dont like it and it is also against our culture and tradition.

[guyabano]

westerners often complain of how 'muslims' dont respect their culture in their countries, but what about the westeners in our country? well heres one article highlighting the disrespect that people from the west do in our countries:

Topless woman at beach sparks 'cover up' call
By Zoi Constantine and Emmanuelle Landais, Staff Reporters

.....
.....


... etc etc it is sad that it is under-reported.

Come on, don't over-react as if somebody grab your lollypop.

Some arab countries make heavily advertizing in western country TV channels in order to attract westerners to bring money. If you do so, also please be aware that you have to adapt to their needs. And when westerners come, so be ready to meet girls in bikins, men in shorts or even topless.
There do exist some basic dresscodes, specially, when you visit religious sites.
You can also find sometimes rude tourists, of course. But you cannot make tourists(foreigners) come to your country and then say "Beware, you are now in an islamic country. You cannot do this, do that, respect this respect that."

I'm sorry for you mate, but both will not fit together. Nobody will come.

[Muezzin]

Come on, don't over-react as if somebody grab your lollypop.

Some arab countries make heavily advertizing in western country TV channels in order to attract westerners to bring money. If you do so, also please be aware that you have to adapt to their needs. And when westerners come, so be ready to meet girls in bikins, men in shorts or even topless.
There do exist some basic dresscodes, specially, when you visit religious sites.
You can also find sometimes rude tourists, of course. But you cannot make tourists(foreigners) come to your country and then say "Beware, you are now in an islamic country. You cannot do this, do that, respect this respect that."

So by that logic, if I go to America I should keep driving on the left hand side of the road like we do in Britain? Or I should go to a baseball game and keep shouting 'Your national sport sucks, Cricket is better!'?

I'm sorry for you mate, but both will not fit together. Nobody will come.

Tough. Respect the laws (and culture) of the land you are in. This goes for everybody, Muslim and non-Muslim, white, black, brown, yellow, red, purple, green...

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

:salamext:
and hello

First of all- topless sunbathing is not fundament of western values, so dont connect only nudity with Western World :). You cant prove me that asian or african women dont sunbath topless.

It is part of the fundamental of western values. Westerns pride themselves about freedom choice. the freedom to wear anything or nothing. there are many public nude beaches across the US. these things don't exist in the Muslim countries. I blame UAE for this mass.

Anyway, so now you see what we feel seeing women in full niqaab clothes on european streets. We also dont like it and it is also against our culture and tradition.

The difference is that the Muslim countries don’t arrogantly boast about democracy and freedom of choice. And these are the fundamental values of United States and many other western countries. You can't complain about how someone chooses to live their life or how they wish to dress while at the same time preach about values of freedom.


wasalam
-SI-

[Muezzin]

The difference is that the Muslim countries don’t arrogantly boast about democracy and freedom of choice. And this is the fundamental values of natives of United States and many other western countries. You can't complain about how someone chooses to live their life or how they wish to dress while at the same time preach about values of freedom.

That's a good point I've raised elsewhere and never really received an answer...

[guyabano]

@Muezzin

"Tough words" ... Might be, but tell me, what rules the world? It is neither a God, neither a person, or any institution. It is simply "MONEY" !

Want to have some of it? So you have to swallow your pride in order to get some if tourism is the only option you have.

Sure, I agree on a few points. A serious tourist will inform himself first, what are the do's and don't. In many countries in Europe, you also need casual dress to enter a church, also running around inside a city topless (I speak about men) is forbidden too.

I think, both sides must make some compromises if you like to attract tourists from all over the world.

[Muezzin]

@Muezzin

"Tough words" ... Might be, but tell me, what rules the world? It is neither a God, neither a person, or any institution. It is simply "MONEY" !

Yeah, I understood what you were saying.

Want to have some of it? So you have to swallow your pride in order to get some.

Sure, I agree on a few points. A serious tourist will inform himself first, what are the do's and don't. In many countries in Europe, you also need casual dress to enter a church, also running around inside a city topless (I speak about men) is forbidden too.

Exactly. Even if someone's a tourist they should be respectful. At least that's my viewpoint. I wouldn't go to a Sumo Wrestling match in Japan and start making fun of that national sport for instance, since I would be disrespecting my hosts.

I think, both sides must make some compromises if you like to attract tourists from all over the world.

I know what you're saying. I still think the onus is on the tourist or the immigrant to respect the land they're visiting or moving to.

[guyabano]

I agree on that, but sad to say, neither you Muezzin nor me are ruling these countries. It is as I said, the money. And corrupt people, you will find everywhere. Some are really ready to drop the pants just to earn some more money even they have to forget the moral/religious values of their countries
And those who suffer of it is the local population.

[Amadeus85]

That's a good point I've raised elsewhere and never really received an answer...

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do whatever he/she wants. Just imagine how would it look like if in one country everyone would behave like he wants?
I am sure that you don't support homosexual marriages and abortion, but these bad things hapenned in West because people began to understand democracy in the way that you do- that everyone can do what he wants.
Democracy and freedom means that i can say anything ( which of course doesn't harm others ) and i won't go to jail for that.
Democracy and freedom means that no matter if i am white, black or yellow, i have the same rights and opportunities.
It means that women and men are equal in rights.
It means that everyone borns as a free man and he/she can struggle for good life for him.

But it doesn't mean that everything is permitted.

[Muezzin]

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do whatever he/she wants. Just imagine how would it look like if in one country everyone would behave like he wants?
I am sure that you don't support homosexual marriages and abortion, but these bad things hapenned in West because people began to understand democracy in the way that you do- that everyone can do what he wants.
Democracy and freedom means that i can say anything ( which of course doesn't harm others ) and i won't go to jail for that.
Democracy and freedom means that no matter if i am white, black or yellow, i have the same rights and opportunities.
It means that women and men are equal in rights.
It means that everyone borns as a free man and he/she can struggle for good life for him.

But it doesn't mean that everything is permitted.

But freedom of expression, which is a value many in the West (including myself) hold dear, does allow people to say or display anything they want.

Where does France stand on freedom of expression?

I agree on that, but sad to say, neither you Muezzin nor me are ruling these countries. It is as I said, the money. And corrupt people, you will find everywhere. Some are really ready to drop the pants just to earn some more money even they have to forget the moral/religious values of their countries
And those who suffer of it is the local population.

Bleh, silly politicians ruining everything... :p :)

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do whatever he/she wants. Just imagine how would it look like if in one country everyone would behave like he wants?
I am sure that you don't support homosexual marriages and abortion, but these bad things hapenned in West because people began to understand democracy in the way that you do- that everyone can do what he wants.
Democracy and freedom means that i can say anything ( which of course doesn't harm others ) and i won't go to jail for that.
Democracy and freedom means that no matter if i am white, black or yellow, i have the same rights and opportunities.
It means that women and men are equal in rights.
It means that everyone borons as a free man and he/she can struggle for good life for him.

But it doesn't mean that everything is permitted.

plz explain to me how a Muslim woman wearing Niqab violates democracy as you stated above? abortion and homosexuality are different issues. you can't compare these evil practices to niqab.

-SI-

[Amadeus85]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful




plz explain to me how a Muslim woman wearing Niqab violates democracy as you stated above? abortion and homosexuality are different issues. you can't compare these evil practices to niqab.

-SI-

Here i explain you dear Sifilam- both homosexual marriages and niqaab are against european tradition and culture.

[Woodrow]

But freedom of expression, which is a value many in the West (including myself) hold dear, does allow people to say or display anything they want.


Bleh, silly politicians ruining everything... :p :)

True, but it does make it difficult for visitors as they need to find out what is legal in a given locality. Like Dubai many visitors to Texas run into the same problems on the beaches. The Beaches on the Texas coast fall into 2 categories, public or private property. Public beaches have some very strict laws and the laws are not much different than the laws found in Dubai. However the private property ones are much different. As long as they do not have general public access and are not visible to the public, nearly anything can and does happen. Those are the type of beaches many people associate with the US and then get into trouble when they try the same things at a public beach and wonder what happened when they get thrown in Jail.

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

Here i explain you dear Sifilam- both homosexual marriages and niqaab are against european tradition and culture.

I get it, freedom and democracy as long as someone lives their life according to your culture and beliefs. your values of freedom makes perfect sense. I wonder how many westerners will agree with you.

-SI-

[KAding]

Well, there is of course the difference between tourism and immigration. But I see your point. Even a tourist should try not to offend local traditions.

[rania2820]

:sl:
i live in qatar and i see this so much now.many of the westerns feel as though that dont have to follow the local laws, because they feel that they are backwards.
but yet when muslims come to the west and feel the western customs are backwards and don't follow them everyone gets up and arms about.

its double standards

[Suomipoika]

so how about you westerners start respecting our culture instead of acting its all one way traffic and that you guys are like angels in our country, perhaps once realize that your not perfect then maybe we can all sit down and come to an understanding, sadly i dont see that happening any time soon since the west doesnt seem to want to accept that fact that they are not perfect, it is much easier for them to blame and complain on others.

Heh, "we" are far from perfect, Ive always known and realized that. If someone actually claimed that we are perfect, that person was idiot. :D

I find it kinda curious that you pick up action of some "westeners", label us and blame us all collectively for it, in a very insulting manner. Ive always been under the impression that you cant blame group of people by the actions of some.

I went to the Dubai Government's Department of Tourism & Commerce Marketing site, and in the photo section I noticed couple of pictures with females on bikinis or bikini tops. So its a pretty good indication what to expect as a tourist. In the end its just a one woman in article, which is used to brand us all, which is pretty ridiculous.

Just click on photo section in the multimedia corner and scroll forward.

http://www.dubaitourism.ae/default.asp

Where does France stand on freedom of expression?

Pretty much where rest of the western world stands on freedom of expression. You can express yourself in most ways, and most places. There are certain places where you cant go nude, and there are certain places where you have to follow dresscodes.

[Suomipoika]

Democracy doesnt mean that everyone can do whatever he/she wants.

I thought about this while, and well, its actually exactly what democracy, west and western values means to me atleast, with little addentum.

Democracy means that everyone can do whatever he/she wants, as long as it doesnt harm anyone else and their right to do whatever he/she wants.

[islamirama]

I thought about this while, and well, its actually exactly what democracy, west and western values means to me atleast, with little addentum.

Democracy means that everyone can do whatever he/she wants, as long as it doesnt harm anyone else and their right to do whatever he/she wants.

So in that sense a niqabi is ok as she is not harming anyone else by her actions. But a "houchy mama" is not ok as some are not interested in seeing naked fat flabbing around, causing some of us to be sick and throwing up at the mere sight of it....

[Suomipoika]

So in that sense a niqabi is ok as she is not harming anyone else by her actions. But a "houchy mama" is not ok as some are not interested in seeing naked fat flabbing around, causing some of us to be sick and throwing up at the mere sight of it....

To say it in similar provocative manner, some might not be intrested seeing "walking tents", and the mere sight makes them sick and to throw up. Now neither the "houchy mama" or "walking tent" can dress the way they want. So no. Just because something annoys or irritates is not valid reason to ban that something.

[guyabano]

To say it in similar provocative manner, some might not be intrested seeing "walking tents", and the mere sight makes them sick and to throw up. Now neither the "houchy mama" or "walking tent" can dress the way they want. So no. Just because something annoys or irritates is not valid reason to ban that something.

and even I like to add something: Always when I see a woman in a walking tent, I feel uncomfortable as I always get the feeling, she wear a belt of bombs under her tent !

[Malaikah]

and even I like to add something: Always when I see a woman in a walking tent, I feel uncomfortable as I always get the feeling, she wear a belt of bombs under her tent !

Feel what ever you like, just don't allow your ignorance to turn into an injustice against these women.

How many women in 'tents' have you ever seen anyway? TV doesn't count.

Oh, and by the way, if someone was going to try to bomb some place, they would probably have the common sense of dressing like a 'normal' person so they don't attract unwanted attention. You are too paranoid.

[MTAFFI]

I think the problem with the Niqab is people hiding who they are, since Islam has had a direct relation with recent attacks on the security in the west, to some the Niqab may pose a security threat.(Personally I dont worry about it) But this must be considered, a naked woman on the beach is of no threat to anyone except herself as she will likely develop skin cancer. A person in a niqab is a possible security threat, since they could be man or woman and very well could be carry an explosive device.

As far as western freedoms, I am assuming this is about some european countries since the niqab has yet to be banned any public place in the US as far as I know.

As far as double standards and disrespect of culture, the person who posted this thread is already done the exact same in his posts. Point is the west does not respect muslim/ arab culture anymore than the muslim/ arab culture respects the west. The west wants to force you not to wear something and the muslim/ arab wants to force you to wear something, they are both examples of double standards

[Woodrow]

People from all over have misconception of when they visit other nations. Since the Western World is the most Mobile they get the most notice.

However, I have seen many tourists from other nations come to the US and act very obnoxious and violate almost every community code in the areas they visit. Many are very disrespectful of woman, but much of that comes from the stereotyping the Hollywood media has presented them.

People from every nation tend to forget they are guests when they enter another nation. If a country has rules we can not tolerate, we have no business visiting their. Follow the laws when we visit, respect the people and do not push our views, or keep out.

[MTAFFI]

People from all over have misconception of when they visit other nations. Since the Western World is the most Mobile they get the most notice.

However, I have seen many tourists from other nations come to the US and act very obnoxious and violate almost every community code in the areas they visit. Many are very disrespectful of woman, but much of that comes from the stereotyping the Hollywood media has presented them.

People from every nation tend to forget they are guests when they enter another nation. If a country has rules we can not tolerate, we have no business visiting their. Follow the laws when we visit, respect the people and do not push our views, or keep out.

True dat homeslice :D

[Amadeus85]

People from every nation tend to forget they are guests when they enter another nation. If a country has rules we can not tolerate, we have no business visiting their. Follow the laws when we visit, respect the people and do not push our views, or keep out.

Wise words, but it should work in both ways. Immigrants who come to Europe or USA also should listen to your words -follow the laws,respect the people, and do not push our views, or keep out!

Good that Europe is changing into this thinking.

Regards.

[islamirama]

Wise words, but it should work in both ways. Immigrants who come to Europe or USA also should listen to your words -follow the laws,respect the people, and do not push our views, or keep out!

Good that Europe is changing into this thinking.

Regards.

i guess that lives little room if any for coexistance and tolerance.

[MTAFFI]

i guess that lives little room if any for coexistance and tolerance.

The same could be said of Islam

[Woodrow]

i guess that lives little room if any for coexistance and tolerance.

I see it as the opposite. I would say that demands coexistence and tolerance. coexistence and tolerance works in both directions, when we migrate into a new country, we need to do so with the knowledge of not insulting the people, at the same time when strangers move in with us we need to learn their ways also and help them adapt.

[islamirama]

I see it as the opposite. I would say that demands coexistence and tolerance. coexistence and tolerance works in both directions, when we migrate into a new country, we need to do so with the knowledge of not insulting the people, at the same time when strangers move in with us we need to learn their ways also and help them adapt.

acceptances of others differences and getting along is the key, not intregration and assimilation. And btw, non-Muslims have more freedom in Muslim lands than Muslims in europe/uk.

[Amadeus85]

acceptances of others differences and getting along is the key, not intregration and assimilation. And btw, non-Muslims have more freedom in Muslim lands than Muslims in europe/uk.

Muslims in Europe and USA have much more freedom that muslims in so called muslim coutries.

[Woodrow]

acceptances of others differences and getting along is the key, not intregration and assimilation. And btw, non-Muslims have more freedom in Muslim lands than Muslims in europe/uk.

true, the strengths of all cultures working towards common goals is very strong. Remember, in the early days Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together kept their identity and kept out the pagans.

acceptance and tolerance is not integration and assimilation.

[Talha777]

Here's my take on this issue, and it would do you well to take heed of it:

Not all cultures are equal, despite the rhetoric of multiculturalism. The fact of the matter is, some "cultures" are superior to others. Those cultures are the ones based on strong moral and religious values, as opposed to hedonistic and individualistic based cultures. In this light, Islamic "culture" is superior to western culture (if it can be called culture). You cannot equate wearing bikinis with wearing burqa. A culture that promotes bikinis, how can it be superior to a culture which promotes burqa?

And to be fair, UAE does not represent Islam. True they got upset over a topless woman on a beach. But I ask you, what is the difference between a topless woman and a woman in a bikini? There is virtually no difference in my opinion. Both are flaunting their bodies out of arrogance, and both are defying the commandment of God. The UAE should ban all beaches. This beach lifestyle and sunbathing is a total waste of time, and is imported from the Western ideology that life is all about fun and relaxing. Muslims should not adapt Western vacation mentality.

So to conclude, there has to be a double standard. We have to tell Westerners that they are entitled to allow our women to wear burqa/pardah, but we are not entitled to allow them to wear bikini.

[MTAFFI]

And btw, non-Muslims have more freedom in Muslim lands than Muslims in europe/uk.

that is a joke, where do you get your facts

[Talha777]

As far as double standards and disrespect of culture, the person who posted this thread is already done the exact same in his posts. Point is the west does not respect muslim/ arab culture anymore than the muslim/ arab culture respects the west. The west wants to force you not to wear something and the muslim/ arab wants to force you to wear something, they are both examples of double standards

As I have already mentioned in my prior post, there needs to be a double standard. Islam says enjoin good and forbid evil. If that means a double standard, so be it.

But this must be considered, a naked woman on the beach is of no threat to anyone except herself as she will likely develop skin cancer. A person in a niqab is a possible security threat, since they could be man or woman and very well could be carry an explosive device.

The more I read these posts, the more I understand the Western mentality, which has a flawed belief that more freedom is a positive thing. This person thinks a naked woman in public poses no threat, except skin cancer to herself. This is the Western mentality, it is entirely materialistic. It only sees positive in something which has material or worldly value, and it only sees negative and something which doesn't. This is the bane of our difference and the essential reason for the clash between Islamic moralism and Western materialism. The threat which a naked woman poses is a threat to morality, decency, and truth. These aren't viewed as problems in the West because there is no material aspect to these threats.

Allah is not one eyed while Anti-Christ is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. (Sahih Bukhari: Kitabul Anbiya)

So do not be like Dajjal, learn to see with two eyes, and don't just focus on the material benefits of things in life.

[islamirama]

that is a joke, where do you get your facts

Lets see...

hijab banned in france
niqaab banned in many european nations and a big issue in uk
Muslims harassed

Non-Muslims free to do as they pleace in Muslim countries, within reasonable frame.

perhaps you should travel abit and you'll find out.

Muslims in Europe and USA have much more freedom that muslims in so called muslim coutries.

That too varies. Muslims banned from hijab in france but can do niqaab in pakistan, uae, saudi, yemen, indonesia, and many other countries.

[Keltoi]

As Kading mentioned earlier, tourism and immigration are two completely different things. If the UAE, for example, attempts to bring in tourist money with an ad campaign showing scenes that you would find at most beaches around the world, including bikini clad women, then you will get bikini clad tourists.

If I move to the UAE, it is my responsibility as an immigrant to find out what is acceptable behavior and live by that standard. If a Muslim moves to the U.S., they should do the same. The rest is the same old "veil" debate that has been explored over and over again on this forum.

[islamirama]

As Kading mentioned earlier, tourism and immigration are two completely different things. If the UAE, for example, attempts to bring in tourist money with an ad campaign showing scenes that you would find at most beaches around the world, including bikini clad women, then you will get bikini clad tourists.

If I move to the UAE, it is my responsibility as an immigrant to find out what is acceptable behavior and live by that standard. If a Muslim moves to the U.S., they should do the same. The rest is the same old "veil" debate that has been explored over and over again on this forum.

I concur :thumbs_up

[MTAFFI]

Lets see...

hijab banned in france
niqaab banned in many european nations and a big issue in uk
Muslims harassed

Non-Muslims free to do as they pleace in Muslim countries, within reasonable frame.

perhaps you should travel abit and you'll find out.

So because in two countries some clothing has been banned because of security issues, and some Muslims have been harrassed, so with these facts you believe that Muslim countries allow more freedom. Lets see here what is wrong with this picture, oh wait now I see, it is completely lop sided. Did you forget to mention the freedom of the press in Muslims countries, freedom of speech, womens rights, the right not to wear a hijab or niqaab, the right to speak against your government without being arrested? Or did you forget about the Buddhists and other polytheist that dont have a right to worship how they choose and can be put to death for their beliefs? Or how about not being able to have a beer in public or go to a nude bar? Believe it or not, not everyone finds these things to be evil and not everyone believes in God, but I am sure you simply summarized all of this for me with your "reasonable frame" comment, right? Perhaps it is you who should travel a bit sir, I have made my way around the world several times, the difference between myself and some tourists is I do not go places that I know I wont be able to exercise my rights as I please.

[MTAFFI]

As I have already mentioned in my prior post, there needs to be a double standard. Islam says enjoin good and forbid evil. If that means a double standard, so be it.

That is fine, you can believe that your culture is better than others, I believe my culture is better than yours, however that doesnt make either of us right since a culture doesnt define a person, it defines their surroundings. By the way if the culture is so terrible why do you live in Canada, they are even more liberal than the US?

The more I read these posts, the more I understand the Western mentality, which has a flawed belief that more freedom is a positive thing. This person thinks a naked woman in public poses no threat, except skin cancer to herself. This is the Western mentality, it is entirely materialistic. It only sees positive in something which has material or worldly value, and it only sees negative and something which doesn't. This is the bane of our difference and the essential reason for the clash between Islamic moralism and Western materialism. The threat which a naked woman poses is a threat to morality, decency, and truth. These aren't viewed as problems in the West because there is no material aspect to these threats.

Allah is not one eyed while Anti-Christ is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a bulging out grape. (Sahih Bukhari: Kitabul Anbiya)

So do not be like Dajjal, learn to see with two eyes, and don't just focus on the material benefits of things in life.

I am not sure how you are getting this materialistic thing out of my post.. I simply said that the naked woman isnt physically harming anyone. If you cant walk by a pretty woman without wishing to have sex with her you are a pervert, and covering women up from head to toe wont change that. If you go to the beach then you should expect to see people in bathing suits, no one likes to swim in a niqaab, the thought of it is ridiculous. If you dont want to see a woman in a bathing suit, dont go to the beach. People deserve to have fun in life and you can do that while at the same time showing respect to God. Laying naked on the beach isnt the best way to accomplish it and I think this woman is wrong for doing it but what is anyone supposed to do about it the girl obviously recieved some sort of reprecussion.

[islamirama]

So because in two countries some clothing has been banned because of security issues, and some Muslims have been harrassed, so with these facts you believe that Muslim countries allow more freedom. Lets see here what is wrong with this picture, oh wait now I see, it is completely lop sided. Did you forget to mention the freedom of the press in Muslims countries, freedom of speech, womens rights, the right not to wear a hijab or niqaab, the right to speak against your government without being arrested? Or did you forget about the Buddhists and other polytheist that dont have a right to worship how they choose and can be put to death for their beliefs? Or how about not being able to have a beer in public or go to a nude bar? Believe it or not, not everyone finds these things to be evil and not everyone believes in God, but I am sure you simply summarized all of this for me with your "reasonable frame" comment, right? Perhaps it is you who should travel a bit sir, I have made my way around the world several times, the difference between myself and some tourists is I do not go places that I know I wont be able to exercise my rights as I please.

Let’s break it down shall we :)

Since when did wearing hijab become a security issue? what are you afraid is being hidden under a piece of cloth?


Press is limited in Muslim countries as well as freedom of speech, women rights and right to speak against your gov’t. This is the case in many countries but not all and this is regardless of you being Muslim or not. No one special group is targeted out like Muslims are in Europe. As for hijab/niqaab, that too is banned in some countries like turkey and morocco who try to please the western powers. What can you expect from secular rulers of Muslim lands? But overall, you will find more acceptance and less hatred for hijab/niqaab in muslim world then you will in Europe. I tried limiting to a few things, but if you want to know what the Europeans have done and are at it, then check it out here

As for Buddhist and polytheists and others, they too worship what they want over there, unless you can bring proof to back up your claims? There are brothels and other adult oriented places available for non Muslims as well, they are just a hush hush deal with the authorities the owners. You may have traveled the world but if you don’t go where you think you may not have the right to exercise you will never really find out how much rights you have there. You probably don’t even know that in Saudi, where niqaab is the law of the land, you can go without even a hijab on as non-muslim.

[MTAFFI]

Let’s break it down shall we :)

Since when did wearing hijab become a security issue? what are you afraid is being hidden under a piece of cloth?

How about the man who wore the Niqaab to escape British authorities, or the possibility that a terrorist could wear this to conceal weapons or bombs while in a public place with a large number of people. It is with out a doubt a security concern.

Press is limited in Muslim countries as well as freedom of speech, women rights and right to speak against your gov’t. This is the case in many countries but not all and this is regardless of you being Muslim or not. No one special group is targeted out like Muslims are in Europe. As for hijab/niqaab, that too is banned in some countries like turkey and morocco who try to please the western powers. What can you expect from secular rulers of Muslim lands? But overall, you will find more acceptance and less hatred for hijab/niqaab in muslim world then you will in Europe. I tried limiting to a few things, but if you want to know what the Europeans have done and are at it, then check it out here

As for Buddhist and polytheists and others, they too worship what they want over there, unless you can bring proof to back up your claims? There are brothels and other adult oriented places available for non Muslims as well, they are just a hush hush deal with the authorities the owners. You may have traveled the world but if you don’t go where you think you may not have the right to exercise you will never really find out how much rights you have there. You probably don’t even know that in Saudi, where niqaab is the law of the land, you can go without even a hijab on as non-muslim.

In Muslim land a polytheist can not practice religion because it is law in Islam that a polytheist be put to death, I will find a link that proves this, but I think you know this as well as I do and everyone else.

As far as not going there and knowing my rights, it isnt just about my rights. Do you know I have never been anywhere that I have felt out of place? I have never felt as though people hated me because of my skin or looks? The reason I dont visit the middle eastern countries is because some people there believe their culture is, as said above by Talha777, better than mine, and has different beliefs, values, etc. So I dont go there because I do not wish to put myself in that position. The problem that Islam is having is a direct result of the actions taken by those who share the faith of Islam. This whole problem popped up over night, before 9/11 no one attacked or hated Muslims, it happens now because of the constant complaining and attacks that are shown to be coming from Muslims. Muslims are coming to other peoples land and expecting everyone to treat them as if they were anyone else, while at the same time they set themselves apart from everyone else. Muslims, in my opinion, in many places distanced themselves from the rest of the world and there is nothing wrong with that, but dont expect the rest of the world not to distance themselves from you as well. My suggestion would be, if you wish to live among the people of the west do it because you like our culture and way of life and if you dont, simply stay where you are and you wont have any problems.

[islamirama]

How about the man who wore the Niqaab to escape British authorities, or the possibility that a terrorist could wear this to conceal weapons or bombs while in a public place with a large number of people. It is with out a doubt a security concern.

I think you are confused about which is which, becuase you had previously said hijab poses a security risk.

hijab = head scarf
niqab = face veil

One person tried to use that trick, one isolated incident. It's really not that big of an issue as some make it out to be. If there's a problem, the security people can ask the person to show her face and being sensitive to her faith they can have a female officer do that.

In Muslim land a polytheist can not practice religion because it is law in Islam that a polytheist be put to death, I will find a link that proves this, but I think you know this as well as I do and everyone else.

what you are stating is what you probably read or heard from others. If you go visit, you will see people of many faith living as they please and praciticing their faith as they please.

As far as not going there and knowing my rights, it isnt just about my rights. Do you know I have never been anywhere that I have felt out of place? I have never felt as though people hated me because of my skin or looks? The reason I dont visit the middle eastern countries is because some people there believe their culture is, as said above by Talha777, better than mine, and has different beliefs, values, etc. So I dont go there because I do not wish to put myself in that position.

Americans are known to be ethenocentric, this is even taught in the history class. What you are afraid of by going to those countries is what immigrants go thru while they visit these lands.

The problem that Islam is having is a direct result of the actions taken by those who share the faith of Islam. This whole problem popped up over night, before 9/11 no one attacked or hated Muslims, it happens now because of the constant complaining and attacks that are shown to be coming from Muslims. Muslims are coming to other peoples land and expecting everyone to treat them as if they were anyone else, while at the same time they set themselves apart from everyone else. Muslims, in my opinion, in many places distanced themselves from the rest of the world and there is nothing wrong with that, but dont expect the rest of the world not to distance themselves from you as well. My suggestion would be, if you wish to live among the people of the west do it because you like our culture and way of life and if you dont, simply stay where you are and you wont have any problems.

I won't get into 9-11 issue as the verdict is still out on who really did that with well over 25 countries majority saying they really don't know despite what the US media has bombarded the views with.

Muslims have been living in non-Muslim lands for decades. There was never a problem or an issue. You can be different and still get along. This whole conflict is being stired by the politicans and the gov'ts. Take away all the negative association of everything in the world with Islam and constant negative publicity of Islam and you won't have all this tension among Muslims and non-Muslims.

[Philosopher]

The carping about women going topless seems a bit petty.

The carnage we see in Iraq and elsewhere, where Moslems are slaughtering other Moslems seems, at least to me, disrespectful. You’re too consumed with trivial choices people make.

Why not show a little respect for things that matter – like human life.

Wow, you're good at avoiding blame, arent you??

Maybe you should also consider your own people who slaughter "Muslims" in Iraq and Afghanistan in massive quantities. Maybe you should stop being a hypocrite and start respecting human life yourself. You and people like you have a bad track record and still do over this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6636343.stm

[Woodrow]

How did a simple thread pointing out that we all need to be sensitive to the cultures of other people, become an argument over the morality values of the world.

Unless the next post can show the connection between this and the opening thread, I am going to consider the discussion as being completed.

[MTAFFI]

How did a simple thread pointing out that we all need to be sensitive to the cultures of other people, become an argument over the morality values of the world.

Unless the next post can show the connection between this and the opening thread, I am going to consider the discussion as being completed.

I think that the issue of morality ties into this post as the post is about disrespect of culture. Each cultures morality is different and is more and less tolerant in regards to certain things in society. When one person or cultures morality is strict and anothers is very lenient it sets up for a clash of cultures, especially when travel from one place to another is so easy these days, and this is where it is seen as disrespect. Really when it is thought of this way, people can see that it is in fact not disrespect to another culture, rather it is simply a person just doing what they would regularly do and being ignorant to their surroundings. I guess I think morality ties into this because people need to be aware of what others consider moral may be what they consider immoral, and also that some people do not have morals. There is no right or wrong really, just different opinions, which is what I think is being discussed here. Did that make sense?:hiding: Sorry if it didnt....lol

[Sami Zaatari]

I’ll certainly do my best to respond within the context of the thread topic. No nation is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. The fact is, however, that Moslems living in the West have greater freedom of religion than those living in Islamic nations.

It’s certainly not disrespectful of the West to allow Moslems the freedom of religion that Moslems explicitly disallow those of competing religions. It’s certainly not disrespectful that we in the West allow Moslems to build mosques in our neighborhoods when Moslems explicitly disallow the building of Churches and Synagogues in muslim lands™. My home is in America. We have fought hard to secure and to defend our rights to freedom of expression, religion, thought and freedom of the press. These concepts are antithetical to Islam's agenda. We saw what happened to Theo Van Gogh in Holland when he criticized Islam. There’s a roll call of others: Salman Rushdie. And Ibn Warraq. And Irshad Manji. There are plenty of others who have died not for disrespecting islam but for exercising a basic western freedom of open debate. Their only “crime” was in treating Islam with the same critical analysis as any other religion. If you’re going to wantonly and callously disrespect the rights of others - as Moslems do with astonishingly regularity - while making arrogant demands that you deserve the very respect you deny others, don’t be surprised if your demands are countered with someone getting in your face… like now.

It’s more than just disrespectful to murder people for challenging your positions, it’s illegal and immoral. Apparently what you want is to secure for Islam a position of privileged inviolability in public discussion and in print.

can you please stop lying, or do you expect us to be ignorant fools like fox news readers? do you think we wont check up on your 'facts'? you claim churches cant be built in muslim countries, wow, lets expose you real bad now, heres a link of churches in the united arab emirates a muslim country:

http://www.pinoyuae.com/newpinoy/church_ad.html

this shows how ignorant, arrogant, and hate-bigoted filled you are, i can get much more links of churches across the muslim world, but that should do in exposing your lie that churches are EXPLICITLY banned from being built in muslim countries, please dont come here with your hate and rubbish talk.

and you mention salman rushdie and debate, lol, your funny, salman rushdies book wasnt a book on debate, his book was a book of mockery and insulting, thats not called 'open dialog debate' thats just called mocking and insulting, you sound illogical very illogical, oh yes we will insult and mock the heck out of you for a nice fair dialog! thats not called dialog, thats called low class having no manners and wanting to make people angry. how about i go call the bible every single evil name, and you see the reception i will get from christians, so plz dont come say this 'debate' nonsense, there is debate, but when you debate you have manners and you dont start mocking and insulting, thats not called debating so dont come here and try to white-wash things plz.

so next time you wanna speak, dont lie plz or is that all you have because your so hate filled? i have bad news for you, Islam is here to stay, and the west will be islamic by the next century, we will see how you feel then when all your hate wont be able to stop Islam.

[Muezzin]

Stop fighting or the thread will close, people.

[Hashim_507]

Tourist should get educated about muslim countries especially religiously and colturaly.

[guyabano]

As I mentionned already in the beginning, both sides must make efforts. The one who want to get/earn the money, but also the one who like to spend the money.
You cannot adpot a mentality by saying 'before you come to my country, please read the rules, learn about islam and respect the culture'
The tourist will simply say: 'Ok, so I go somewhere else. There are plenty other countries, who want to get my money!'
Conclusion: The one with his stiff mentality wanting to educate a tourist will still bite the dust, while his neighbour will laugh because his hotels are overbooked.

I say, as a western tourist, I will respect the cultures of the country. But don't teach me about religion or make my wife wear a veil when she don't like or else I spend my money somewhere else. - Simple-

[Malaikah]

The tourist will simply say: 'Ok, so I go somewhere else. There are plenty other countries, who want to get my money!'

All countries would expect you to show some level of respect for their laws and culture.

And there aren't many countries, if any at all, that offer westerners the works opportunities in the same way Dubai does.

[guyabano]

All countries would expect you to show some level of respect for their laws and culture.

And there aren't many countries, if any at all, that offer westerners the works opportunities in the same way Dubai does.

I spoke about tourists ! And besides, if you mention workers, not much westeners will go there as the jobs there are miserable salaries. Most foreigners who work there anyway are pinoys (philippinos).

[rania2820]

So because in two countries some clothing has been banned because of security issues, and some Muslims have been harrassed, so with these facts you believe that Muslim countries allow more freedom. Lets see here what is wrong with this picture, oh wait now I see, it is completely lop sided. Did you forget to mention the freedom of the press in Muslims countries, freedom of speech, womens rights, the right not to wear a hijab or niqaab, the right to speak against your government without being arrested? Or did you forget about the Buddhists and other polytheist that dont have a right to worship how they choose and can be put to death for their beliefs? Or how about not being able to have a beer in public or go to a nude bar? Believe it or not, not everyone finds these things to be evil and not everyone believes in God, but I am sure you simply summarized all of this for me with your "reasonable frame" comment, right? Perhaps it is you who should travel a bit sir, I have made my way around the world several times, the difference between myself and some tourists is I do not go places that I know I wont be able to exercise my rights as I please.

ok first of all you need to actually visted the middle east and not take all your info from wikipedia. how about actually visting a place before making jugment.
i have lived in the middle east for almost 9 years now.
the thing you saying are not allowed in the muslim countries is not true. people in all of the muslim coutries (excluding saudi and iran) have bars and the people can buy beers,vodka you name at .and non-muslims are allowed to worship their religion. do you forget about the amount of jewish and christian arabs? its only the american media that claims these people are torture. in syria for example its actually them muslims who are starting to take on christian names because it gives them better jobs.
and as for freedom of press. do you actually think in USA we have total freedom of press.if you think that you are clearly a naive human being,.freedom of speech and press is a myth.and i suppose yo believe in the american dream as well? no offense but this is the problem with white america(and i don't mean by race just by the mentality), its way too ignorant about how the world works and even less how their country works. try living among a people before judging them. because you are so so ignorant about how the middle east.

[north_malaysian]

Hey... you cannot chew your chewing gum in Singapore. Regardless of your religions and cultures... so just follow the rules.... wherever u are:D

[guyabano]

Hey... you cannot chew your chewing gum in Singapore. Regardless of your religions and cultures... so just follow the rules.... wherever u are:D

That is a good initiative ! Even tough, very severe. Isn't it, that they check already at the airport, if you carry chewing gum on you?

[Muezzin]

This topic seems to have run its course.

It's also based on a generalisation that one Western woman represents the behaviour of all Westerners, and this may well have contributed to the argumentation taking place here.