The St. Petersburg Declaration by "Secular Muslims"

[zoro]

I was very encouraged by the recent St. Peterbury Declaration, pasted below (copied from http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI...g-Declaration). I would be interested to learn opinions about this Declaration expressed by other people, especially Muslims. Incidentally, to endorse this declaration, the referenced website provides a convenient email link.

Released by the delegates to the Secular Islam Summit, St. Petersburg, Florida on March 5, 2007

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to

• reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;
  
• eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;
  
• protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;
  
• reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims;
  
• and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.

We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid strictures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine;

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.


Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afshin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

[Muezzin]

Hmm, I don't normally approve things from blogs, but this seems to be an exception since it's not reporting an event as such, nor is it truly simply a comment or speculation. I hope people can discuss this in a civil manner, you know, agree or disagree without getting nasty.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I don't agree, they just want us to give up our beliefs the same way the people before us did. May Allaah keep the muslims steadfast, ameen.

[NobleMuslimUK]

People need to learn and so do a lot of muslims that there is no such thing as a secular muslim. You are either a muslim or your not.

Allah SWT knows best

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[Umar001]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

I feel sorry for her.

such as female circumcision

What about male? Hmm.

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

They are entitled to their opinions, but, I disagree with them...

[SATalha]

People need to learn and so do a lot of muslims that there is no such thing as a secular muslim. You are either a muslim or your not.

Allah SWT knows best

I agree, the statements that they make goes against many fundemenatal beliefs of Islam. This therfore might be seen as them being out of Islam, But Allah Knows Best

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

As Shaykh Yasir said: "Progressive Islam is not new or progressive, rather it has been around since the beginning of time, the first example being that of Iblees. They have the same methodology, i.e., my opinion is right."

Listen to the entire lecture by Shaykh Yasir Qadho - Making Progress with the Progressives:
http://muslimmatters.org/audio/yasir...ogressives.wma

May Allaah keep the muslims steadfast, ameen.

Ameen.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

They are moderate muslim much loved by the west.

Those who follow the laws in Islam are extremist.
Those who follow the Quran and Sunnah are extemist.

Alahmdulilah the Quran cannot be changed but man can be chaged thru greed,hyrpocrisy and secular needs.

And i se more and more moderate muslim who toe the western line.

[Umar001]

I wudnt see the point of calling myself muslim if I thought like that.

[north_malaysian]

Salaam,

They are moderate muslim much loved by the west..

They're not moderate Muslims... they're LIBERAL MUSLIMS... Muslims who want to be liberate from Islam.

[north_malaysian]

I was very encouraged by the recent St. Peterbury Declaration, pasted below (copied from http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI...g-Declaration). I would be interested to learn opinions about this Declaration expressed by other people, especially Muslims. Incidentally, to endorse this declaration, the referenced website provides a convenient email link.

How can Non Muslims like Noni Darwish (she's a Christian) endorsed this declaration?

[syilla]

They're not moderate Muslims... they're LIBERAL MUSLIMS... Muslims who want to be liberate from Islam.

Liberal muslims +o( ...i read in the news two days ago.

[north_malaysian]

Liberal muslims +o( ...i read in the news two days ago.

Actually I dont care whatever they want to think about practicing their religious obligations... how liberal it could be... I just dont care.

But I really, hate it when they're criticising people who are not fond of their version of Islam. People have the right to choose.

[syilla]

How can Non Muslims like Noni Darwish (she's a Christian) endorsed this declaration?

you are right. :?

[north_malaysian]

you are right. :?

maybe she is a secular muslim christian?:blind:

[guyabano]

I was very encouraged by the recent St. Peterbury Declaration, pasted below (copied from http://secularislam.org/blog/post/SI...g-Declaration). I would be interested to learn opinions about this Declaration expressed by other people, especially Muslims. Incidentally, to endorse this declaration, the referenced website provides a convenient email link.

absolutely agree ! :thumbs_up

[rubiesand]

What does a self declared atheist like Ayaan Hirsi Ali (or whatever her real name is) think she is doing declaring what Muslims should believe? If Islam is not good enough for her, she can keep her nose out. What hypocrisy! 'Believe as I say, not as I believe.'

[Pygoscelis]

Could this be an early sign of a reformation, like what happened with Christiainity?

[vpb]

Salam Salam :)

[- Qatada -]

Could this be an early sign of a reformation, like what happened with Christiainity?

Nope:


The final Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"There will not cease to be a group from my ummah, dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes."

Authentically Recorded in Sahih Muslim

[vpb]

if Islam wouldn't be protected by Allah swt, Islam would dissappear long time ago.

[جوري]

Nope:


The final Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"There will not cease to be a group from my ummah, dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes."

Authentically Recorded in Sahih Muslim

Yup.. I think the New true Muslims are no longer from the east though, but the new reverts. Sob7an Allah.. I believe it is from them that the army for the wars of the end will assemble. Allah A3lam
:w:

[- Qatada -]

:wasalamex


True say ^


Also, Allaah has preserved the scripture for us for over 14 centuries now - And it will remain that way since it is the truth from Allaah:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

[Qur'an Al-Hijr 15:9]

[جوري]

:wasalamex


True say ^


Also, Allaah has preserved the scripture for us for over 14 centuries now - And it will remain that way since it is the truth from Allaah:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

[Qur'an Al-Hijr 15:9]

lol... I just had another look at the page.. pls have a look at who has endorsed this
Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afshin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq<< need I say more? :rollseyes +o(
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

[Goku]

Ibn Warraaq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nonnie Darwish are Ex-Muslims, Ayaan Hirsi Ali in particular is a **** because she went on BBC and rambled on about how she would like Iran bombed.

Those 3 at least are misleading others into getting others to think they are "secular" Muslims when they arent even Muslim, they are anti-Muslim. I dont know why they feel the need to lie, but then again they're experts at it, after all, thats the job of Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Ali.

[جوري]

Ibn Warraaq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nonnie Darwish are Ex-Muslims, Ayaan Hirsi Ali in particular is a **** because she went on BBC and rambled on about how she would like Iran bombed.

Those 3 at least are misleading others into getting others to think they are "secular" Muslims when they arent even Muslim, they are anti-Muslim. I dont know why they feel the need to lie, but then again they're experts at it after, after all, thats the job of Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Ali.

Any brouhaha against Islam will get prime time... it is calculated

وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ خَيْرُ الْمَاكِرِينَ {54}

[Yusufali 3:54] And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

:w:

[Sami Zaatari]

lol, to begin with, half of the names on those list are NOT muslims, they are apostates. ibn warraq is a known anti-Islamic bigot. so is nonie darwish, and wafa sultan! this is the new tool they have invented against Islam, bring up posers, pretending to be muslim, and make declarations in the name of Islam, how conveniant.

and im not a takfiri neither, but when a muslim says no to sharia law, and no to fatwas, they become kaffirs, that is if they dont do it with ignorance, and i know for a fact that the supposed 'muslims' on that list have studied Islam quite well and know this, hence they cant be excuses for ignorance, and hence under the Islamic concensus they are apostates, so these people (not the posers such as darwish) are not even muslims! so lol, you got a list of non muslims pretending to be muslims, and another group of 'muslims' who contradict every fundamental and basic of Islam which basically throws them out of Islam.

and notice the zionist tone in their message which even contradicts their entire blank declaration! they state:

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

so we stand as equal citizens! yay! but then look what they say at the end:

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or THE CHOSEN PEOPLE

erm excuse me? how can we be equal when you have a group of people claiming to be the chosen people of god?!!!!!!!! lol this is too funny, so they basically contradict themselves within a few passages, perhaps they should send this declaration to the zionist jews!

either way, this declaration is a joke endorsed by jokers. dont even get me started on that joker wafa sultan who made a clown out of herself on al-jazeera when all she did was spew lies after lies which has been refuted. just type in wafa sultan refutes on youtube and you will see a wonderful presenation by a former christian who is now muslim refuting her claims made on al-jazeera.

[abdil han]

Could this be an early sign of a reformation, like what happened with Christiainity?

no,it is not possible...

this will never happen to our blessed deen...

the one who protects islam is Allah(c.c.)...
thats why Kur'an is still the same as at the beginning...

i am just very sorry for those people who lost their faith and akherah anyway....

[Trumble]

I don't agree, they just want us to give up our beliefs the same way the people before us did. May Allaah keep the muslims steadfast, ameen.

I don't see that anywhere in the statement. The authors are merely defending their right not to have those beliefs, and any rights/obligations/punishments associated with them, forced on those who don't share them.

[north_malaysian]

Ibn Warraaq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Nonnie Darwish are Ex-Muslims

Maybe they reverted back to Islam? Oopps my mistake... Secular Islam.

[Pygoscelis]

I believe it is from them that the army for the wars of the end will assemble. Allah A3lam
:w:

I truly wish these religious messages didn't always have to sound so violent.

[SATalha]

I truly wish these religious messages didn't always have to sound so violent.

Doesnt sound violent.....just inevitable. But war should be avoided at all cost, but what can you do when it come knocking on your door, with a big sign saying "Made in Pennsylvania".:? .

Anyway as to your Previous comments, these forms of "Islam" will never prevail. The reason for this, is becuase Allah has promised that the Quran will be preserved till the last day. :) So try they might but Islam will never be diluted, there will always be a generation that will uphold the truth:) . May Allah make me and the other Brothers and Sisters part of that generation, Inshallah. Ameen

[AzizMostafa]

Can any one of those answer All (not part of) my Questions here?
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ians-jews.html
______________________
Peace + Flowers

[vpb]

Doesnt sound violent.....just inevitable. But war should be avoided at all cost, but what can you do when it come knocking on your door, with a big sign saying "Made in Pennsylvania". .

Anyway as to your Previous comments, these forms of "Islam" will never prevail. The reason for this, is becuase Allah has promised that the Quran will be preserved till the last day. So try they might but Islam will never be diluted, there will always be a generation that will uphold the truth . May Allah make me and the other Brothers and Sisters part of that generation, Inshallah. Ameen

lol, previous generations have tried even more than today';s generations to dilute islam, not even communism could, so I don't know why are they trying :p lol....

[SATalha]

lol, previous generations have tried even more than today';s generations to dilute islam, not even communism could, so I don't know why are they trying :p lol....

I know, people need to realise that as long as the Quran is there, then Islam will never be diluted.

[Sami Zaatari]

ibn warraq is hiding his identity and himself, one of the authors is a lesbian, hirsi is also in hiding, lol and these are the people who are going to defeat Islam?! how about when most of them have the guts to even come out and show themselves instead of hiding then maybe they might be able to achieve their goals. and plzzz dont say oh but they are being threatened! many muslim apologists suffer threats and acts of violence, i have been threatened many times by people, i dont mind at all, cause i got the truth and god on my side, why should i be scared? these losers know they have nothing on their side which is why their not willing to put their lives on the line for it, and thats says it all. The prophet Muhammad and his companions put their life and wealth all at risk for Islam, do you expect such losers as ibn warraq and hirsi who hide like ants to actually be able to stand up to mighty Islam? i think not.

[Zman]

ibn warraq is hiding his identity and himself, one of the authors is a lesbian, hirsi is also in hiding, lol and these are the people who are going to defeat Islam?!

:sl:

Hirsi is in hiding? Where?

Isn't she in America, after her beloved Netherlands expelled her, after years of loyal service?

[SATalha]

:sl:

Hirsi is in hiding? Where?

Isn't she in America, after her beloved Netherlands expelled her, after years of loyal service?

Is Hiris the lady that came from Somalia and had a very UN-ISLAMIC experience their?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Yea. She blames the ignorance of society on Islam. Sorry I dont need non Muslims representing my religion! Its like having a male teach us what its like to have a baby! Paleeaseee.

[SATalha]

^^Yea. She blames the ignorance of society on Islam. Sorry I dont need non Muslims representing my religion! Its like having a male teach us what its like to have a baby! Paleeaseee.

Ok now i know the lady.......very sad what happned.but it was UN-ISLAMIC

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Yes it was. Had she known about Islam then, she'd know its wrong. So how can i take her word for it now after she starts looking into "culture" and not Islam? Why are people so stupid? I cant seem to get past that :X

[SATalha]

It happens, one thing is clear these people will not get far.

[vpb]

^^Yea. She blames the ignorance of society on Islam. Sorry I dont need non Muslims representing my religion! Its like having a male teach us what its like to have a baby! Paleeaseee.

What's wrong with males teaching you how is is like to have a baby? :p lolll

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^lololol. Har har brother :)

[north_malaysian]

:sl:

Hirsi is in hiding? Where?

Isn't she in America, after her beloved Netherlands expelled her, after years of loyal service?

She should be sent back to Somalia. Let see if she can secularise the Somalis..... :skeleton:

[Goku]

Maybe they reverted back to Islam? Oopps my mistake... Secular Islam.

Dunno about Nonnie Darwish but it would be a miracle if Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali reverted back to even "secular" Islam.

Allahu Alam, if Allah SWT wills it will happen, but i would be shocked if it does. :D

[Goku]

ibn warraq is hiding his identity and himself, one of the authors is a lesbian, hirsi is also in hiding, lol and these are the people who are going to defeat Islam?! how about when most of them have the guts to even come out and show themselves instead of hiding then maybe they might be able to achieve their goals. and plzzz dont say oh but they are being threatened! many muslim apologists suffer threats and acts of violence, i have been threatened many times by people, i dont mind at all, cause i got the truth and god on my side, why should i be scared? these losers know they have nothing on their side which is why their not willing to put their lives on the line for it, and thats says it all. The prophet Muhammad and his companions put their life and wealth all at risk for Islam, do you expect such losers as ibn warraq and hirsi who hide like ants to actually be able to stand up to mighty Islam? i think not.

Exactly! You just need to look up on history on what happened to those who tried to extinguish Islam. And those were powerful armies, these anti-Islam people today are nothing, nothing.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad, peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).


[Qur'an Tawba (Repentance) 9: 32-3]

[KAding]

The people who signed this document are not Muslims. They are apostates. Being a non-believer myself I agree with them though.

[جوري]

The important thing is that the majority of Muslims don't agree with them!.. they can go on pleasing like minds... The rest of us aren't interested in pleasing apostates and the folks who give them grants and augment their efforts for all to see. Life is way too short for fleeting applauds.

[SATalha]

The people who signed this document are not Muslims. They are apostates. Being a non-believer myself I agree with them though.

Exactly them being non-muslim and you being a non-muslim means that you have no right in shaping Islam. Allah has already done that for us when the Quran and the Rasul (peace be upon him) was sent to humanity. Its like that example given before, men telling women how to go through pregnancy. Your opinions and the people on that statements opinions do not have any bearing to Islam:blind: So what is the point in making these statements and than saying "yes i agree with them"? Makes no sense :D No offence

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Exactly :D Sorry changing a religion no longer makes it unique anymore. You change one thing in it, everything changes. If we did, then you'd having people saying its been changed so many times blah blah, we took this out and that out. Just like with Christians, no offense.

[Zman]

She should be sent back to Somalia. Let see if she can secularise the Somalis..... :skeleton:

:sl:

The new puppet Somali government would welcome her with open arms. I read an article last week which contained a photo showing government security forces pulling the Hijab of the heads of many Somali women, in pulic...

[north_malaysian]

The people who signed this document are not Muslims. They are apostates. Being a non-believer myself I agree with them though.

Imagine if we Muslims endorsed a Declaration that:

* Pope must be elected by all Catholics people, not by a small group of churchmen.

* Greek government must stop recognizing Greek Orthodox Church's Canon Laws, both within the church and in such areas of civil law as marriage.

[abdil han]

Exactly! You just need to look up on history on what happened to those who tried to extinguish Islam. And those were powerful armies, these anti-Islam people today are nothing, nothing.

exactly...:)
they are nothing!
why we discuss them too much? do they deserve this?

[north_malaysian]

exactly...:)
they are nothing!
why we discuss them too much? do they deserve this?

Maybe because they discuss about us too much too.:omg:

[rubiesand]

^ yes and no doubt they'll continue to talk about us, but the bottom line is they have no credibility with Muslims.

[Chuck]

Pardon my french, this declaration is rubbish

[KAding]

Exactly them being non-muslim and you being a non-muslim means that you have no right in shaping Islam. Allah has already done that for us when the Quran and the Rasul (peace be upon him) was sent to humanity. Its like that example given before, men telling women how to go through pregnancy. Your opinions and the people on that statements opinions do not have any bearing to Islam:blind: So what is the point in making these statements and than saying "yes i agree with them"? Makes no sense :D No offence

No offense taken.

Using you logic I could say the following:
The people who signed this declaration are unbelievers, I am an unbeliever as well. I voiced an opinion on their statement. I am thus 'shaping the beliefs of unbelievers', not Islam :D. In fact, I think it makes no sense for you to voice an opinion on a declaration of secular muslims, people you clearly have no affiliation with :p. As such your opinions have no bearing on my opinions and those of my fellow disbelievers :blind: ;).

But seriously, I have my own opinions and I just voiced them, that does not mean I am 'shaping Islam'. I never claimed I was shaping Islam either. Besides, I am sure you have many opinions as well on groups you are not part of?

If Sharia law would ever in any form be implemented where I live (which I consider unlikely), I would not be able to voice these very opinions, since it would be blasphemous and I would be considered a threat to the Umma and would be dealt with accordingly. That makes it relevant enough for me to voice my secular opinion on Islam.

[KAding]

Imagine if we Muslims endorsed a Declaration that:

* Pope must be elected by all Catholics people, not by a small group of churchmen.

* Greek government must stop recognizing Greek Orthodox Church's Canon Laws, both within the church and in such areas of civil law as marriage.

This would not be comparable. These people are apostates. In the case of Hirsi Ali, she has to live under permanent protection of body guards. Her life is threatened exactly because she is an outspoken apostate, because she was a Muslim. There are Muslims out there that think Islam allows them to kill her for her apostasy. That makes Islam very relevant to her.

In essence the rules of Islam make Islam relevant for her. This idea that being born a Muslim means that you are always a Muslim and under the jurisdiction of other Muslims, in an Islamic state at least. Thats why she is outspoken against an Islamic state and Islam, because it essentially calls on her to be executed.

Islam has an opinion on her, then why can she not have an opinion on Islam?

[KAding]

Pardon my french, this declaration is rubbish

It is not Islamic, that is not synonymous to 'rubbish' to non-Muslims ;). It is to real Muslims obviously.

[Chuck]

It is to real Muslims obviously.

Well not all of it is rubbish, some points agree with sharia law, but the way it is projected is incorrect. For example: honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage are against the sharia law. Another thing, I'd include forced unveiling in the list too.

[Musaafirah]

I disagree with the liberalism..
all I've gotta say at this point:
Rasulullah :arabic5: said:
"Bani Israeel split up into 72 sects and my Ummah will split into 73 sects. All, excepting one, will be in the fire." The Sahabah asked: 'Which is that (one sect) O Rasulullah?' Rasulullah :arabic5: said: "That group which is on my path and that of my Sahaabah."
(Tirmizi)
"Those who will live after me will witness great dispute. Therefore, my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Khulafa Rashideen (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan and ali) are incumbent upon you. Hold onto it firmly with yout jaws (i.e adhere to the Sunnah with determination) and beware of innovation, for verily, everya act of innovation is bid'ah. Every Bid'ah is deviation."
(Tirmizi)

[Talha777]

honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage are against the sharia law

I am sorry, but how is forced veiling against Shariah?

[Chuck]

I am sorry, but how is forced veiling against Shariah?

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

[Talha777]

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

Brother, I believe that this verse is perhaps the most abused one in terms of being quoted without proper understanding of its relevance, context, and essential meaning.

Therefore, I direct you to the tafseer of this ayat:

(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.'' (Tafsir of ibn Kathir)

La ikraha fi deen simply means you cannot force someone to accept Islam. But elsewhere, we can clearly see in the Holy Quran that Allah Taala has given us plain and clear religious commandments, and He has also commanded us in many cases to compel others against breaking those commandments (i.e. stealing, murder, fornication)

[Chuck]

Brother, I believe that this verse is perhaps the most abused one in terms of being quoted without proper understanding of its relevance, context, and essential meaning.

Therefore, I direct you to the tafseer of this ayat:



La ikraha fi deen simply means you cannot force someone to accept Islam. But elsewhere, we can clearly see in the Holy Quran that Allah Taala has given us plain and clear religious commandments, and He has also commanded us in many cases to compel others against breaking those commandments (i.e. stealing, murder, fornication)

Prohibitions against stealing, murder, and fornication are forced on non-muslims too, but sharia doesn't force non-muslims to wear veil. So what we have here, sharia not gonna force veil on non-muslims but it gonna force on muslims that don't believe it is compulsory? You can consider them a different sect and show them if it is necessary, but state forcing them to wear veil doesn't feel right.

You have any example from the time of prophet (pbuh) and 4 rightly guided caliphs where muslims or non-muslims were punished for not wearing veil?

[SATalha]

No offense taken.

Using you logic I could say the following:
The people who signed this declaration are unbelievers, I am an unbeliever as well. I voiced an opinion on their statement. I am thus 'shaping the beliefs of unbelievers', not Islam :D. In fact, I think it makes no sense for you to voice an opinion on a declaration of secular muslims, people you clearly have no affiliation with :p. As such your opinions have no bearing on my opinions and those of my fellow disbelievers :blind: ;).

But seriously, I have my own opinions and I just voiced them, that does not mean I am 'shaping Islam'. I never claimed I was shaping Islam either. Besides, I am sure you have many opinions as well on groups you are not part of?

If Sharia law would ever in any form be implemented where I live (which I consider unlikely), I would not be able to voice these very opinions, since it would be blasphemous and I would be considered a threat to the Umma and would be dealt with accordingly. That makes it relevant enough for me to voice my secular opinion on Islam.

How can the very people who are trying to reform Islam not involve the Muslim community? Strange? This took place in St Petrsburg was the Muslim Organisations and Communities informed? No they werent. Yes I have no affiliation towards them, but when they come and say to the world "this is how Islam should be today" I have a problem with that. I also have a problem with people who come and say "ummmm yes i agree with that". Not your place to agree or disagree. The fact that they say "secular Muslims" and call themselves "muslims" I have a problem with, becuase they have lost the fundemental beliefs so this according to my understanding takes them out of the fold of Islam (but Allah knows best). Its just you see these people are going to funded and this message will be pushed and backed by certain guvernments and its really insulting when people think they can teach me my Deen when they are not evan part of it! Have a nice day.

[sudais1]

Lets get this straghit Ayaan Ali Hersi knows absouletly nothing, she's the devil.:raging: :raging: These people arent muslims they are the Wests Dogs. They have been brainwashed. There is no such thing as secular muslim. Its either you follow the deen that Allah has percribed or you don't. Don't Call them muslims, they know sweet FA about our reliegoun. I'm sorry for being an extremist because I follow the sunnah of the prophet. Im sorry i said Israeli annexation of lands was wrong. because if i do im an extremist.

Number one Sharia is our Law so leave our laws the blood alone. Saudi is the only country the enforced like 90% sharia. I hate this world, All of a sudden people want to rip me of my religoun by putting locks on what I can belive or do. Forced veiling is the command of Allah, those animals no absoulty notin. This world is useless to me, All of a sudden is wrong to wear a cloth on your head, :raging:

Then you people complain about not having freedom. IF someone wants to wear a veil and you dont let her what freedom is that? If a country decides to use their own laws persribed by the Lord and the International community pressures them to apply "western" laws what freedom is that? The World complains about a veil and they do nothing about Chechnya or Palestine. Great International community. Muslims are hated everywhere, they are worth nothing these days, The blood of a muslim is worth nothing. They die everywhere and the world barely does anything, They attack our rules and religoun and lifestyle. This is disgraceful

[SATalha]

Indeed this is a discrace and an insult. Thats why we need to expose these people and prey that the Muslims around the world remain steadfast in the deen inshallah.

[vpb]

^^ ameen to the dua

[Pygoscelis]

Forced veiling is the command of Allah, those animals no absoulty notin. This world is useless to me, All of a sudden is wrong to wear a cloth on your head, :raging:

Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?

[sudais1]

Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Most women who where the Veil also choose to wear it because they are religous, Christians and Jews also used to practice this, its nothing new





Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?

Well Calgary is a bit different now. The Muslim community is about 65,000 and it's really normal, There are soo many churches but other than that its become one of the fastest growing cities in the world. There have been alot of Debates here and there but there arent and Aggresive christians, those whom I have seen, and just the general public. Its not really that Christian anymore the streets are filled with crazy youth partying 24/7

[sudais1]

Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Most women who where the Veil also choose to wear it because they are religous, Christians and Jews also used to practice this, its nothing new





Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?

oh...oops the other part...

Most Women choose to wear the Veil, Christians and Jews used to aswell, its nothing new. It's for the protection of the women, its better for them to wear it. If they deny it they deny what God had perscribed. Those women who dont wear it have begun to fall in love with the western ways and left their religoin.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^I dont agree with your last part, maybe partially. My mom doesn't wear one but she prays more than I do MashaAllah. InshaAllah she will and I have a feeling she does think about it. There are a lot of people who are good Muslims but haven't decided the Hijab yet and others who, deep down, are considering it.

[Pygoscelis]

Is the veil just a custom or is it specifically mandated in the Quran?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Hijab is obligatory and face veil is optional. And if someone chooses to wear it, its their right. If a woman feels safe, protected or liberated in it, then more power to her! Like I said, I could be wrong Astaghfirullah.

Peace

[Hashim_507]

between the free and the unfree.

They will know the differance between free and unfree in day of Judgement.

[north_malaysian]

They will know the differance between free and unfree in day of Judgement.

are the women hanged by their own hairs that Prophet Muhammad witnessed during his Mi'raj... are among non-hijabis?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^That was posted here on the forum wasn't it? I think thats what it was, not sure tho!

[Hashim_507]

are the women hanged by their own hairs that Prophet Muhammad witnessed during his Mi'raj... are among non-hijabis?

What I mean is that the people of paradise are free, and the realty of judgement day will catch their eye. I am not judging them or anyone, only Allah judges them.