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Zman
05-13-2007, 07:00 PM
:sl: /Peace To All

Retired Marine Preaches, Says Killing Terrorists Is An ‘Act Of Love For Our Nation’

By Laura Followell
The Tribune-Star
Pubished On: May 06, 2007 11:50 PM
TribStar.

TERRE HAUTE — According to retired U.S. Marine Col. J. Tyler Ryberg, the Bible contains messages about war and capital punishment. God is a powerful soldier.

Ryberg, who served in the Marines for more than 27 years, gave a sermon Sunday morning at Good Shepherd Baptist Church’s Armed Forces Day, where some of the 150 people in attendance often erupted with an “Amen!”

The colonel asked churchgoers if the global war on terrorism was a “just war” and a “God-ordained war,” which he later affirmed.

“We’re killing Islamic jihadists, bloodthirsty killers,” he said. “Peace is not an option. You don’t negotiate with bloodthirsty, jihadist killers.”

While he was in the Marines, Ryberg said, he was often asked, “If you’re a Christian, why do you want to go to war to kill people?”

Ryberg said he wants Americans to understand that it’s an act of love to kill evil people who seek to kill Americans.

“If we do take their life, they will kill no more. It’s an act of love for our nation,” Ryberg said.

He explained the importance of government and said that without government, chaos would ensue.

“We are all sinful creatures with a sin nature,” he proclaimed. “Sinful mankind left unrestrained will cause chaos.”

Ryberg justified capital punishment and said it’s in the Bible. God ordains the principle of taking life as an instrument of his justice, he added.

“God gaveth long before our nation was born. It’s always been on the books. And [the Bible] is the highest law of the land,” Ryberg said.

“And I want to let you know our Supreme Court, they’re not supreme, only God is. And [the Bible] is the supreme law of the land, and the buck stops here.”

The sound of shuffling Bible pages reverberated across the pews as Ryberg asked worshippers to note specific passages. Ryberg often referenced passages that he interpreted as relating to war and its justification.

He said that only God gives life and only God takes life, but said God gave Noah the right to take the life of an evil man who sheds innocent blood.

Ryberg said that Abraham fought the first biblical war in the word of God.

He said God told Abraham to go to war with his “well-trained” servants, his army. Ryberg said God won that war by coming down and killing his enemies.

“There’s none other; there’s none higher; there’s none greater than our God,” Ryberg said.

“The only day we will have perfect peace is the day Jesus Christ comes back. … Our Lord’s coming back, folks,” he said.

Jerry Gibbons, who served in the Army for eight years, wanted to hear the colonel speak.

“I’m very impressed to see someone who has served that long on active duty and still have that much faith in God, our country and government,” Gibbons said.

Marcella Weaver said the sermon seemed to the point. To her, it justified war.

“God says that we are to help those being attacked by the bloodthirsty,” she said, “and it’s an act of love.”

Laura Followell can be reached at (812) 231-4253 or

laura.followell@tribstar.com .

Source:
http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_...126235058.html
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Zman
05-16-2007, 11:10 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

The Christian Soldier

Lt. Gen. William Boykin Is Inspiring Faith in Some and Doubt in Others


By Richard Leiby
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 6, 2003; Page C01

Standing before a packed church sanctuary in Daytona Beach, Fla., last January, a battle-scarred Army general named William G. "Jerry" Boykin talked about one of the most harrowing days of his life. It wasn't a story of military combat, though he had seen its horrors several times over a 32-year career.

It was a testimonial about his personal war with the Devil.

"I rarely tell this story," he told his audience at the First Baptist Church, according to a transcript of the speech, which was recorded by church officials, "but I feel very strongly that I should share it with you."

A burly 55-year-old who boasts of bench-pressing 300 pounds, Boykin sounded that day like an evangelical preacher, crafting parables and quoting Scripture as he reviewed his experiences as a Special Operations soldier and commander. He wore a chestful of ribbons on his uniform and two stars on his shoulders.

This past summer he earned his third star, promoted to lieutenant general and appointed to a top terrorism-fighting job at the Defense Department. As deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence, Boykin heads a new office focused on finding Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and other "high-value targets."

But now Boykin is the subject of an investigation by the Pentagon's inspector general over comments he made at several church presentations, in which he referred to the United States as a "Christian nation" joined in "spiritual battle" against Satan.

On at least two occasions, he talked of seeing demonic forces in black marks on a photograph he took from a helicopter over Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1993. And, in discussing a Somali Muslim militia leader, Boykin said, "I knew that my God was bigger than his."

Muslim groups are furious, Christian groups say the remarks were taken out of context, Democrats have urged Boykin's removal, and President Bush has distanced himself from the general's remarks. Boykin declined to be interviewed for this article, but he issued a statement last month saying he is not "anti-Islam or any other religion" while apologizing to "those who may have been offended by my statements."

Lost in the furor is the compelling biography of Lt. Gen. Boykin that emerges in his speeches, which were first given wide notice last month by the Los Angeles Times and NBC News. Traveling around the country in recent years, Boykin has detailed his physical and spiritual trials while working in the secret and dangerous world of Special Operations, where he served as one of the early members of Delta Force, an elite commando unit established in 1977.

In Boykin's telling, these aren't just war stories. Miracles occur. Satan looms. And God repeatedly tests Boykin's faith, to the breaking point.

Death In Mogadishu

At his Jan. 28 presentation in Florida -- where several hundred people filled the church for a national evangelism conference -- Boykin recounted how Delta Force troops and Army Rangers were swarmed by well-armed Somali militia fighters and citizens during the October 1993 operation chronicled in the book and movie "Black Hawk Down." Then a colonel, Boykin commanded Delta Force, which was trying to capture militia leader Mohamed Farah Aideed.

It turned into the most intense firefight for U.S. infantrymen since Vietnam. Out of an air and ground assault force of some 150 American troops, 18 died and 84 were wounded. As many as 1,000 Somalis were killed.

Boykin told of a five-ton truck pulling up to the U.S. base at the Mogadishu airport, stacked with bodies, some missing arms and legs: "I watched that tailgate open and I watched the blood of my soldiers pour out of that truck like water."

Boykin, who said he had prayed before the battle for Jesus "to go with us," wept angrily on his bunk and renounced his faith, saying, "God doesn't exist."

He quickly repented. But his true crisis of faith was yet to come.

Two days later, a militia-fired mortar round hit the airfield, killing a Delta Force sergeant, critically wounding the unit's surgeon, and riddling Boykin's legs and feet with shrapnel. By spring of 1994, still recovering from the wounds, he had been posted to the Joint Staff at the Pentagon -- which he called a "miserable" period in his life.

Boykin learned he might have to appear before the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was looking into policy and tactical decisions that contributed to the deaths at Mogadishu. He said he saw a copy of an anonymous letter circulating through the Pentagon that blamed his alleged "incompetence" for many of the 18 deaths.

As it turned out, Boykin was interviewed by committee investigators, but the head of the Joint Special Operations Command, Maj. Gen. William Garrison, took full responsibility for the battle's outcome.

Boykin also spoke of his shock at being passed over for promotion. And he spoke of working at the Pentagon for a "vile, foul man" whom he did not name. "He made my life terrible," Boykin said. "I don't know why.

"And then when I thought that things could not get any worse than they already were," Boykin recounted, "my wife of 25 years . . . walked in and said, 'I don't love you anymore, you're a religious fanatic, and I'm leaving you.' "

Boykin's ex-wife did not respond to requests for an interview. People familiar with this period in the general's life say he was crippled by despair. As Boykin told the Florida gathering: "I lay down on my bed one day and said, 'Lord, I just ask you to take me. Take me and let me be with you, because I can't fight anymore. I can't go on.' "

But Boykin said God treated him the same way He treated Joshua, the great warrior of the Old Testament. "He said, 'Get up and dry your eyes and wipe that stuff from under your nose and get back into battle.'

"And that's what God said to me. He said, 'Get up out of bed.' Oh, I didn't hear an audible voice, but I knew just what God was saying to me. You see, God has a plan. . . . I was in a battle for survival. Satan wanted to destroy me -- because God had a plan for my life, and Satan was determined not to let me fulfill that plan."

The general urged listeners to find inspiration in his story:

"And God's got a plan for you. Now your task is to stay faithful and stay in the game and keep getting up every day and putting on that armor, and going in there and slugging."

Fellow officers, soldiers and friends say that's what Jerry Boykin has been doing his entire career.

Prayer Warrior

Boykin was born into a Pentecostal family in rural New Bern, N.C. "His mom taught Sunday school. This guy grew up in the church," said Jack Kelley, executive director of men's ministries for the International Pentecostal Holiness Church, a denomination that claims 3.5 million members in more than 100 countries. Boykin, whom Kelley called a "prayer warrior," recently completed a two-year stint on the men's ministries board.

Much of Boykin's military career is classified -- his official résumé makes no mention of his service in Grenada, Panama, Somalia or other high-risk missions -- and friends were reluctant to reveal much about his private life. They described him as an avid hunter, a dog lover and a guitar picker who played football at Virginia Tech, where he earned a bachelor's degree in education.

He joined the Army in 1971 and later made the cut as an officer in the elite 1st Ranger Battalion. In 1978 he applied to undergo the even more demanding physical and psychological challenges of Delta Force screening and training. Inspired by British, German and Israeli commando units, Delta became the United States' toughest counter-terrorism and hostage rescue squad.

"Very few succeeded" in Delta training, said retired Lt. Col. L.H. "Bucky" Burruss, who helped run the assessment and selection program. "I can recall one course where only one guy passed out of around 100."

Boykin beat the odds. "I recall that he had a bad knee," Burruss said, "and I thought he would never make it. . . . I thought, I hate to see this guy busting his [butt], I don't see how he can make it on this bad road wheel, but he surprised us."

At a speech at an Oregon church in June 2001, according to a transcript prepared by NBC News, Boykin referred to a Fort Bragg psychologist who wanted to exclude him from Delta. "This turkey sat me down and looked at me and said, 'I am going to recommend against taking you into this unit because you are too religious.' "

But the late Col. Charlie Beckwith, who created Delta Force, preferred "God-fearing men," according to Burruss. "Beckwith believed it made a better officer."

A religious soldier would not be disqualified unless his beliefs "would interfere with him committing slaughter on behalf of the United States," Burruss said. "If so, he should not be a combat arms officer. You have to have officers and soldiers prepared to commit slaughter on behalf of the United States, when provoked and when necessary."

At 29, Capt. Boykin joined the Delta Force. "I remember the first OER -- officer efficiency report -- I wrote on Boykin," Burruss said. "I remember writing, 'Jerry Boykin is a Christian gentleman of the highest order.' "

Speaking last year at a church in Oklahoma, Boykin put it this way: "God led me into the Delta Force. . . . And He said to me, 'This is where you ought to be.' "

The Hostage Mission

Delta's inaugural mission -- a 1980 effort to rescue 53 Americans held hostage at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran -- ended in catastrophe. Called Operation Eagle Claw, it was aborted after a fiery crash in the Iranian desert killed eight men. Boykin has spoken about it on more than one occasion to church groups.

In a presentation to the First Baptist Church in Broken Arrow, Okla., in June 2002, Boykin painted this scene for his audience:

In the Egyptian desert, as the men prepared to fly into Iran, Col. Beckwith asked Capt. Boykin to lead a prayer. "I stood up on a platform," Boykin recounted. "I said, 'Lord, be with us. Lord, there's 5 million Iranians in that city, and there's only a hundred of us. . . .'

"Now I'm not saying that everyone who stood and prayed that day was a believer, was a Christian. But the Bible says it only takes two. . . . We sang 'God Bless America' and we got on our aircraft and we launched."

Later, about 100 miles from Tehran, a helicopter repositioned itself to refuel and collided with a troop-laden C-130 aircraft. "There was nothing but a ball of fire," Boykin said. "And suddenly I realized that 45 of our men that had stood in the desert and prayed for God's mercy and blessing were trapped inside that aircraft.

"Forty-five men had no chance to survive. They were sitting on fuel bladders with fumes all around them. And they were engulfed in fire they could not survive. . . .

"I began to call in the name of Jesus. I said, 'O God, spare their lives. O God, they believed in you. They trusted you. Spare their lives.'

"And as I prayed that prayer, the door of that C-130 opened and through those flames came 45 men running at a dead run. And they hit that desert floor."

Boykin's audience broke into applause.

"Not one man who stood with us in the desert and pleaded for God to go with us was killed or even injured that night. My faith was strengthened.

"I saw a miracle."

'Fix This Radio'

Operation Urgent Fury, Grenada, October 1983. Maj. Boykin, now an operations officer, volunteered for a helicopter mission to free members of the island's government from imprisonment by the Marxist People's Revolutionary Army.

"He begged me to let him go on that combat assault," recalled Bucky Burruss, Delta's deputy commander in Grenada. "It was probably a mistake for me to do so -- but a soldier who wants to get stuck in combat is a good soldier."

During the dawn assault, the revolutionaries blasted one of the helicopters out of the sky and blazed antiaircraft fire at the Black Hawk carrying Boykin, who later said it was hit 54 times. A bullet tore into the field radio Boykin was carrying, went through his armpit and out his shoulder.

"He looked at the sergeant major and said, 'I think my arm was shot off,' " Burruss said. "The sergeant major turned and said, 'No, sir, I think you've still got it.'"

But a bone in his left arm was "shot completely in two," Boykin told the Oklahoma audience. "The nerves are gone." He said doctors told him, "You're never going to use your arm again."

But God healed his arm, Boykin said.

Another parable of battle, this one from Operation Just Cause, six years later.

In 1989, Boykin was part of the mission to arrest Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. This time he was in a helicopter hovering over the pitch-black jungle, about 10:30 p.m., watching anxiously on a night-vision screen as Panamanians moved in to overrun a U.S. position.

A close friend on the ground was in danger, he told the Oklahoma congregation.

"And I picked up my radio to call him and I said, 'What's wrong with my radio?' And I put the handset down, I picked up another one, but there was no answer. I picked up a third one and finally I laid them all down.

"And I looked up in Heaven and I said, 'In the name of Jesus, I need you, Lord. To fix this radio, that I can tell my brother of the danger.'

"And I reached down and grabbed that handset and I said, 'X-Ray 3, this is X-Ray 7. How are you hearing me?' And he said, 'I read you loud and clear.'

"You see, God's power is limitless," Boykin said. "God answered my prayer."

The Loving Soldier

The Pentagon would not allow any active-duty officer to speak on Jerry Boykin's behalf. But he has a network of supporters, including comrades in arms from the close-knit Special Operations community.

"Jerry was slated for retirement as a two-star general and a number of us pushed to keep him on active duty. People inside and outside the Pentagon said, 'We can't let this guy go,' " said Robert Andrews, a retired lieutenant colonel and Special Operations veteran who has known Boykin since the early 1970s. More recently, Andrews served as a top adviser to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

One of Boykin's closest friends is Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, who once headed the Special Operations Command in Tampa and came out of retirement this summer at Rumsfeld's request to serve as the Army's chief of staff. Like Boykin, Schoomaker was an early Delta Force member. They served as captains together during the 1980 hostage rescue effort in Iran.

A little-known collaboration in their careers came in April 1993, when then-Attorney General Janet Reno sought their advice as she wrestled with how to end the standoff near Waco, Tex., between the FBI and David Koresh's Branch Davidian sect.

Boykin's memo on the meeting, written after the siege ended in a catastrophic fire and the deaths of 75 sect members, shows that he and Schoomaker endorsed the use of a powerful form of tear gas, called CS, to flush out the religionists. They warned that some mothers in the compound might panic and leave their children behind.

That memo and other declassified documents suggest that the military officers had little to say about a civilian law enforcement operation. But if it were a military mission, the two Delta men said their approach would be simple: Focus on the leadership. Wait for the right moment. Then "capture or kill Koresh."

Some who know Boykin call him one of the kindest people they have ever met -- but also a ruthless warrior. "He's a wonderful human being, a very loving, caring, decent man," said one retired general who asked that his name not be used. "But he's also extremely smart and extremely cunning."

"He is one of the bravest men I know," said Col. Russ Howard, who spent 25 years in Special Operations and now heads the department of social sciences at West Point. "I would follow the man anywhere."

Several of Boykin's colleagues, whether active or retired, would not talk publicly about his comments. All said they'd never heard him proselytize in official settings, although at the Daytona Beach church, Boykin told of taking Pentagon workers to Promise Keepers gatherings in the mid-1990s in Washington -- "and they'd come to Christ."

But Boykin's friends say such zeal doesn't translate into bigotry against Muslims. "This is not a guy who wants to go on a crusade to kill infidels," Andrews said. "This is not a scorched-earth kind of guy. He is very attuned to different cultures. This is a guy who views life as a gift from God -- all life, not just Christian life."

One Army Under God

Prayer and warfare often go together. The old adage applies: There are no atheists in foxholes. Those who have experienced combat point out that it's not unusual for soldiers and commanders to seek divine intervention, especially during times when little seems within human control.

In 1944, before the Battle of the Bulge, a Christmas prayer card issued to troops by Gen. George Patton sought God's intercession to "restrain these immoderate rains" and help the Third Army "advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies."

In presentations to church groups, Boykin said he hoped to recruit warriors -- not to put on uniforms, but to form a spiritual army to fight Satan.

He often referenced the Book of Joshua, one of the bloodiest in the Old Testament. In it God authorizes Joshua, leader of the Israelites, to conquer the Promised Land and exterminate the sinners and nonbelievers: men, women, children. The God of Joshua, scholars say, is the flip side of the forgiving Lord in the New Testament.

Joshua is all about conquest. His nationalistic God prosecutes Holy War.


Naming the Enemy

Mogadishu became a recurring topic for Boykin. In his presentation to the Baptists in Oklahoma, the general revealed more dimensions of the story.

The congregation recited a Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag -- and to the "Christian Flag."
Then Boykin thanked them for inviting him and his wife (he remarried after his divorce) to this "blessed place."

He showed slides of the crumbling World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. "Why do they hate us?" he asked. "Who's come against us like that?'

He showed a slide of Osama bin Laden. "And finally we said, 'There's the enemy.' "

He showed a slide of President Bush, whom he said God put in the White House. By a miracle.

"But who is the enemy? It's not Osama bin Laden. Our enemy is a spiritual enemy. . . . His name is Satan."

He spoke solemnly of the wounded Delta surgeon, Rob Marsh, lying next to him on a stretcher in a tent, the night the mortar hit. Bleeding profusely from an abdominal wound, Marsh was dying -- "He had no pulse, he had no blood pressure," Boykin recounted -- but Boykin reached out for him, held his hand and wouldn't let go, and prayed, "Spare him, God."

Marsh survived, and now practices medicine in Virginia. He declined to comment for this article.

"Don't you let go of America," Boykin told his audience. "Don't you worry about what these courts say, our God reigns supreme."

From the very beginning of the Somalia mission, Boykin recalled, "I could feel the presence of evil. . . . The demonic presence is real in places that have rejected God."


After the battles, he flew over Mogadishu in a helicopter. "And I began to take photographs," he said, "and I began to pray for that city, and I said, 'Lord, what happened here? What were we up against?' "

Back home, he developed the photographs, and noticed one with odd black slashes. He said he showed it to his mother, who told him, "Don't you know specifically what you're looking at?"

"Now I understand," Boykin said. He consulted a photographic interpreter trained by the military. "And he said, 'This is not a blemish on your photograph, this is real.'

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your enemy. It is not Osama bin Laden, it is the principalities of darkness. It is a spiritual enemy that will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus and pray for this nation and for our leaders."

He showed the final photo. "What is it? I can't tell you. Except to say that it is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy that I was up against in Mogadishu."


The Devil may have beaten Jerry Boykin back then -- his men were outnumbered, blown to bits, shot from the sky -- but the general said that America, with enough faith, would prevail against evil. And he would help.

As he put it earlier in that speech: "Now I'm a warrior. One day I'm going to take off this uniform and I'm still going to be a warrior."

Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6529-2003Nov5
Reply

MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 01:12 AM
what exactly are you looking for in a response here? These men were obviously very religious soldiers and good men. They did not persecute, they did not kill indiscriminately, they killed the enemy. I hope they are not being compared to the Muslims that claim to fight for God today.
Reply

Hashim_507
05-17-2007, 01:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
what exactly are you looking for in a response here? These men were obviously very religious soldiers and good men. They did not persecute, they did not kill indiscriminately, they killed the enemy. I hope they are not being compared to the Muslims that claim to fight for God today.
The whole point of the article is not about "terrorist", those men are delivering message to muslims in the globe.
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Zman
05-17-2007, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
what exactly are you looking for in a response here? These men were obviously very religious soldiers and good men.

I Just got the expected response, from you.

It's nice of you to defend and condone the incitment of hate and violence, from these fanatical "good men."

I hope they are not being compared to the Muslims that claim to fight for God today.

The "good men" you are defending are worse, because they murder and maim with far more lethal & destructive weapons [some can be classified as weapons of mass destruction], that aren't even possessed by any terrorist group, insurgency, or most Third World nations...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

I Just got the expected response, from you.

It's nice of you to defend and condone the incitment of hate and violence, from these fanatical "good men."


The "good men" you are defending are worse, because they murder and maim with far more lethal & destructive weapons [some can be classified as weapons of mass destruction], that aren't even possessed by any terrorist group, insurgency, or most Third World nations...
I dont defend or condone it, nothing in either of the articles really suggests that they were good or bad.. It just says that they were religious soldiers that fought for the US. I was just stating from the articles I didnt see anything wrong with them. They fought and they called their enemies evil, what is the difference. From the articles I cant see that they "murdered or maimed" anyone, please correct me if I am wrong though. Also who were these men inciting hatred or violence??? Personally I just think you are stretching for an argument :D
Reply

MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hashim_507
The whole point of the article is not about "terrorist", those men are delivering message to muslims in the globe.
i didnt say terrorist, and they didnt talk to muslims, they were talking in church
Reply

MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 02:24 AM
By the way Zman I love how you bolded

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
a Somali Muslim militia leader, Boykin said, "I knew that my God was bigger than his."
and then very conveniently forgot to bold

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
... Christian groups say the remarks were taken out of context, .... Boykin declined to be interviewed for this article, but he issued a statement last month saying he is not "anti-Islam or any other religion" while apologizing to "those who may have been offended by my statements."
Was there a reason for that?
Reply

Zman
05-17-2007, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
By the way Zman I love how you bolded

and then very conveniently forgot to bold

Was there a reason for that?

Because he and they were lying. Anyone with half a brain cell can tell that he was talking about Muslims and Islam.

He had said that his god was bigger than the Muslims God.

And that he was fighting Satan. The entire population of Somalia are Muslims. So they must be the satanic forces.

What he said was definitely Islamophobic and racist. Any so-called statements he may have issued later attempting to absolve hismself is ludicrous.

Also, why are you harping about it? The entire article was included, and if I didn't include it, the link is there. I wasn't trying to hide or alter anything, since you like to fish in murky water.

Finally, if you are accepting his so-called deniability, why do the Islamophobes never accept satements of deniability issued by Muslims?

Or is this another case of "do as we say, not as we do?"
Reply

Zman
05-17-2007, 04:15 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Marine General Calls Fighting, Shooting Some People 'Fun'

According to an audio recording, he said, "Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. ... It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right upfront with you, I like brawling."

He added, "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

His comments were met with laughter and applause from the audience.

The complete retport:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...scomments.html
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
05-17-2007, 04:17 PM
This is the propaganda machine in full swing, they reduce the people (muslims) they martyr to terrorists barbarians, its easier on their concience and reduces their guilt. But this is fanaticism and bigotry of worst kind. How can G-d love such actions as they put it, these are the real terrorists inciting hatred and killing then saying its an act beloved by G-d.

Allah SWT knows best.
Reply

Keltoi
05-17-2007, 04:47 PM
What is so ironic is that this guy is saying many of the same things as the terrorists he is talking about.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]
Because he and they were lying. Anyone with half a brain cell can tell that he was talking about Muslims and Islam.

He had said that his god was bigger than the Muslims God.
I dont think he was talking of Muslims, I think he was talking of the "enemy", and he did not say My God is bigger than a "Muslims God". He was speaking of the people he was fighting, who to him, did not appear to have a God, which obviously wouldnt be a Muslim since they worship God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
And that he was fighting Satan. The entire population of Somalia are Muslims. So they must be the satanic forces.
They must be? I dont think so, on one hand you will grip and complain "Just because of the actions of a few Muslims, it shouldnt reflect on all Muslims" then on the other you now will say that all Somalians are Muslim so they must be grouped with those that this man is talking about. Not true, this man was speaking specifically as he stated over and over again about the "enemy". What should we call them if this is too not acceptable, Islamic extremist, fundamentalist and terrorist are currently not acceptable, the general term "terrorist" has now been labeled unacceptable by many Muslims, because it gets tied with Muslims, are we now not allowed to call those who fight against us and bomb our embassies in a Muslim country the "enemy", please tell what would you like us to call the enemy.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
What he said was definitely Islamophobic and racist. Any so-called statements he may have issued later attempting to absolve hismself is ludicrous.
But he did not reference Islam, the same was said by soldiers who fought against Nazis and Russians and Communists. It is you making it Islamophobic, you are putting words in the mans mouth.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
Also, why are you harping about it? The entire article was included, and if I didn't include it, the link is there. I wasn't trying to hide or alter anything, since you like to fish in murky water.
If you werent "altering" why were you bolding certain sentences? I think that is altering, you made one section of the long article stand out, the average reader will pay attention to the bolded statement and perhaps skip the next few sentences, why not bold the sentence you bolded and then show that the man apologized and stated specifically he was NOT speaking of Muslims
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
Finally, if you are accepting his so-called deniaility, why do the Islamophobes never accept satements of deniability issued by Muslims?
Or is this another case of "do as we say, not as we do?"
Who doesnt accept them, if people didnt Muslims everywhere, in the US, Canada, Europe, etc would be declared war against. The statements are accepted, but when you have a man denying Islam had a part in something and another saying "God is Great" while cutting off another mans head in the name of Islam, it leaves people wondering how to deal with the conflict.

I guess to a bigot or racist it could certainly seem as though this man hated Islam. The thing is he never said he hated Muslims, he never said that Muslims were evil people, he spoke of the "enemy" which is a nondescript person who fought against him as he fought against them. Not everyone in Somalia fought against the US or this man, certain groups did, so what you are saying is an indication of your own paranoia and bigotry. It is caused by your "us and them" attitude, the label of Muslim and non Muslim, perhaps this man feels that the people that he was fighting were evil but that doesnt mean that they are evil because they are Muslim.
Reply

Keltoi
05-17-2007, 08:37 PM
The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is interesting, but not really related to the topic.
Reply

Muezzin
05-17-2007, 09:28 PM
Just deleted a whole bunch of off-topic mudslinging, guys.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
What is so ironic is that this guy is saying many of the same things as the terrorists he is talking about.
Yep. Usually when people use any religion to justify violence, it tends to tick me off because not only is it stupid, it also fuels the fire of 'ban religion because it causes violence!'

Articles such as this show that a certain level of fanatacism is present everywhere and is not limited to the 'comfort zone' of the Middle East.
Reply

Darkseid
05-18-2007, 12:08 AM
The only just war is a war against fascism and imperialism.

The following are fascist:

Nazism (Hitler)
Stalinism (USSR)
Juche (North Korea)
Castroism (Cuba)
Baathism (Saddam)
Aryan League (Iran)
The Original Fascist Party (Italy, Benito Mussolini)
Maoism (China)
Zionism (Israel)
Americanism (United States)

There are two kinds of fascism.

Social Fascism, which often is called Communist, but it is really a social form of fascism like Stalinism and Maoism.

And then there is Capitalistic Fascism, which is often refered to as Orthodox or Actual Fascism. The truth of the matter is that it is just a branch of fascism.

And practically ever state is imperial to some extent, except for Switzerland since it is a pure federation.

In order for a country to not be associated as an empire it must adopt a highly federalized form of government like that of Switzerland.
Reply

Darkseid
05-19-2007, 04:02 PM
Funny, those that are dominated by mean-leanist ideologies end up being killed by god.

You have two ways to go at it.

1) Be nice to everyone and survive in co-existence. Use psychology and diplomacy rather than force to insure peace with hostiles. And engage into war when nothing else works.

2) Enslave everyone and benefit off of the spoils. Watch as god destroys your entire planet in a burst of endless rage.

Now which is your choice? 1 or 2?
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:40 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Onward Christian Soldier: Jesus Camp

Courtesy Of: Channel4.com
Video RunTime: 4:35
01 Oct. 2006

"Jesus Camp" is a documentary which deals with an evangelical retreat that indoctrinates children in Christian militancy, the religious warrior ethos, and to willingly seek death for Jesus...


Video:
http://www.channel4.com/player/v2/pl...sp?showId=1916
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:45 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Battle Cry For Theocracy: Meet The Shock Troops Of The Christian Youth

By Sunsara Taylor
May 11, 2206

If you've been waiting until the Christian fascist movement started filling stadiums with young people and hyping them up to do battle in "Gods army" to get alarmed, waith no longer.

In recent weeks, Battle Cry, a Christian fundamentalist youth movement, has attracted more than 25,000 to mega-rally rock concerts in San Francisco and Detroit and this weekend they plan to fill Wachovia Stadium in Philadelphia.

They claim their religion and values are under attack but, amidst spectacular lightshows, hummers, Navy Seals, and military imagery on stage, it is Battle Cry that has declared war on everyone else!

Their leader Ron Luce, insists: "This is war. And Jesus invites us to get into the action, telling us that the violent--the 'forceful' ones--will lay hold of the kingdom."

A glimpse at Battle Cry's Honor Academy, which trains 500 youth each year and preaches that homosexuality and masturbation are sins, reveals a lot about what kind of society they are fighting for.

Interns are forbidden to listen to secular music, watch R-rated movies or date. Men can't use the internet unsupervised and the length of women's skirts is regulated.

The logic behind this, that men must be protected from the sin of sexual temptation, is what drives Islamic fundamentalists to shroud women in burkas!

Behind their multi-million dollar operation that sends more than 5,000 missionaries to more than thirty-four countries each year, are some of the most powerful and extreme religious lunatics in the country.

Their partners include Pat Robertson (who got a call from Karl Rove to discuss Alito before the nomination was made public), Ted Haggard (who brags that his concerns will be responded to by the White House within 24 hours), Jerry Falwell (who blamed September 11th on homosexuals, feministsm, pagans, and abortionists), and others.

Their events have been addressed by Barbara Bush (via video) as weel as former President Gerry Ford. This weekend's event will include Franklyn Graham who has ministered George Bush and publicly proclaimed that Islam is an "evil religion."

What most of these people have in common is their insistence that the Bible be read literally and obeyed as the inerrant word of God.

As Ron Luce leads youth to pray, "I will keep my eyes on the battle, submitting to your code even when I don't understand, outside my comfort zone in the battle zone," it would be foolish to expect that there is any part of the Bible's literal horrors this movement would be unwilling to enforce.

That includes stoning disobedient children and non-virgin brides (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and 22:13-21), executing gays (Leviticus 20:13), and keeping slaves (Peter 2:18).

Already they staged a protest on the steps of San Francisco's City Hall precisely because they were "The very City Hall steps where several months ago 'gay marriages' were celebrated."

Their answer to the scourge of rape and violence against women is to end divorce, spread ignorance, insist on virginity--the very things that will more entrap women in these nightmares. And this Friday, they are planning rallies at fifty city halls nation-wide.

Of course, like the President who gave Ron Luce an appointment to the White House Advisory Commission on Drug Free Communities, Battle Cry tells its share of bald-faced lies.

For one, they claim that "A scoiety fortified by biblical principals and a strong moral code...is the heritage our forefathers fought and died for us."

But the word "God" never appears in the Constitution. After three-and-a-half months of debate about what should go into the document that would govern the land, the farmers drafted a Constitution that is secular.

Battle Cry also claims America has been "Set aside for God's purposes--a country established for God and fruitfully blessed so that we might take God's message to the ends of the earth."

It is revealing that for all their talk about the value of life and the evils of violent imagery, Battle Cry never speaks against the real violence and loss of life being inflicted by U.S. troops in Iraq.

Still, there is one thing that Battle Cry gets right: this country is in the midst of a deep moral crisis. We are indeed living through times when business-as-usual is unconscionable.

As the Bush regime wages unjust wars, and conducts torture in our names, as they leave New Orleans to rot, and drag us closer each day to a theocracy where abortion and birth control are banned, science is pulled under, and gays are persecuted, it is no wonder that young people are searching for meaning and morality.

The truth is, however, youth will not find the morality they need in a stadium listening to Ron Luce preach religious war and intolerance. And they won't find it while buying Battle Cry's keepsake dog-tags.

These young people need to be challenged to look around them and think for themselves.

I am confident that if they do, many of them may find that the truly moral way to live is to throw their tremendous energies and dreams of a better world into stopping this madness and driving out the Bush regime.

This generation--and their counterparts all around the world--will have to live with the consequences of this culture war, one way or another.

Source:
http://counterpunch.org/taylor05112006.html
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 08:19 PM
It's amazing the links some Muslims use to attempt at proving a point.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 12:47 AM
Zman;

Paul Harvey? Paul Harvey? Are you kidding me? The guy is from the Late Jurassic.

He is 89 or 90 years old!

A retired Marine Col who likely never served in the Middle East? :rollseyes

How about something from Millard Fillmore or Zachary Taylor for something more current?

Quit filling the heads of impressionable young Muslims with such idiocy.

Do you have any idea what percentage of Americans believe in a strict, literal understanding of the Bible?

BTW...you left out Jerry Fallwell. He was always good for some juciy quotes. Oh wait...he's dead. I guess it's down to the Junior Varsity now...eh?
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Zman;

Quit filling the heads of impressionable young Muslims with such idiocy.

Filling the heads of Muslims and non-Muslims with the truth is now considered idocy, eh?

Tsk, Tsk. The truth hurts. That's why the only thing you can counter with is sarcasm and insults.


BTW...you left out Jerry Fallwell. He was always good for some juciy quotes. Oh wait...he's dead. I guess it's down to the Junior Varsity now...eh?

I would have posted an avalanche of his Juicy quotes, but the previous thread on him was closed by the mods...
Reply

Zman
05-20-2007, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It's amazing the links some Muslims use to attempt at proving a point.

Yes, a desperate attack on the links when you can't refute the validity of the information...
Reply

barney
05-20-2007, 02:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Articles such as this show that a certain level of fanatacism is present everywhere and is not limited to the 'comfort zone' of the Middle East.
So how would you compare the respective level to which Religion is driving the Jihadists and the US Army?

As Specalist Colby Buzzel in his reports from Iraq said. "As they fired they shouted "allah ackbar!" We shouted "Get Some!"

You might have a few religious nuts in the Army who think they are acting as "Gods Sword" to punsih the heathen, but I would suspect that the Mhaddists and Al Quada have a few more.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 02:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman

Filling the heads of Muslims and non-Muslims with the truth is now considered idocy, eh?

Tsk, Tsk. The truth hurts. That's why the only thing you can counter with is sarcasm and insults.
Your preposterous claim that Paul Harvey, at 90 years of age, is somehow reperesentative of current, mainstream, American thought is infantile. You convince no one other than those who know little about the US and who see the world as a conflict between Islam and the infidels. It is like the home crowd cheering when the home team makes an unopposed lay-up. If you are pleased with yourself, more power to you. Go ahead, preach hate. See if I care, Islamobot.



I would have posted an avalanche of his Juicy quotes, but the previous thread on him was closed by the mods...
And why do you imagine they closed the thread? Do you think it was because too much love and understanding was being preached?
Reply

Muezzin
05-20-2007, 01:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
So how would you compare the respective level to which Religion is driving the Jihadists and the US Army?
Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

I also find it quite wonderful how you manage to twist my words. If you'd bother to read the preceding paragraph you'd see my stance on this issue:

Yep. Usually when people use any religion to justify violence, it tends to tick me off because not only is it stupid, it also fuels the fire of 'ban religion because it causes violence!'
Maybe taking things in context is too polite, I dunno. Anyway, that's enough about my words, onto your words:

As Specalist Colby Buzzel in his reports from Iraq said. "As they fired they shouted "allah ackbar!" We shouted "Get Some!"

You might have a few religious nuts in the Army who think they are acting as "Gods Sword" to punsih the heathen, but I would suspect that the Mhaddists and Al Quada have a few more.
And I condemn those who pervert Islam to excuse their violence. I don't go around mudslinging by saying 'hey, at least we're not as bad as those guys', which is what you appear to be doing. All I'm saying is everyone has crazy fanatics, but it doesn't make anyone better than anyone else.


Also, general notice, unless everyone behaves themselves on this thread I'm locking it.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 01:55 PM
Muezzin;

How are you this fine Sunday morning (where I am)?

I don't think you are being fair to Barney in accusing him of "mudslinging" when the entire thesis of the thread seems to be that mind-numbed Biblical literalists are hiding behing every American rock, driving American policy, and need only have their perfidy discovered by an outsider with access to Google and anti-American websites.
Reply

Muezzin
05-20-2007, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Muezzin;

How are you this fine Sunday morning (where I am)?
I'm very well, thank you. Yourself?

I don't think you are being fair to Barney in accusing him of "mudslinging" when the entire thesis of the thread seems to be that mind-numbed Biblical literalists are hiding behing every American rock, driving American policy, and need only have their perfidy discovered by an outsider with access to Google and anti-American websites.
I honestly did not interpret the first post that way, since that notion is absurd as you point out. I interpreted it more as fanatacism being present everywhere. That doesn't make fanatacism acceptable obviously.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-20-2007, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I honestly did not interpret the first post that way, since that notion is absurd as you point out. I interpreted it more as fanatacism being present everywhere. That doesn't make fanatacism acceptable obviously.
It seems clear to me his intent was not simply to show that religious fanataicism exists in the West. He was making the argument that it is pervasive and is driving the war. Was it an accident he cited two former military offciers when the military makes up less than 1 % of the US population and the number of mid-grade and general officers is certainly less than 1/1000 of the military.

So the odds of him randomly picking two individuals with those characteristics is about (.01*.001)**2...which is 10 E-10 or about 10 billion to 1 :)
Reply

MTAFFI
05-20-2007, 04:29 PM
So i guess if I start posting quotes from the muslim fanatics on this post and everywhere else as ZMan is, they wont be considered spam or off topic right?
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-20-2007, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
:sl: /Peace To All

Retired Marine Preaches, Says Killing Terrorists Is An ‘Act Of Love For Our Nation’

By Laura Followell
The Tribune-Star
Pubished On: May 06, 2007 11:50 PM
TribStar.

TERRE HAUTE — According to retired U.S. Marine Col. J. Tyler Ryberg, the Bible contains messages about war and capital punishment. God is a powerful soldier.

Ryberg, who served in the Marines for more than 27 years, gave a sermon Sunday morning at Good Shepherd Baptist Church’s Armed Forces Day, where some of the 150 people in attendance often erupted with an “Amen!”

The colonel asked churchgoers if the global war on terrorism was a “just war” and a “God-ordained war,” which he later affirmed.

“We’re killing Islamic jihadists, bloodthirsty killers,” he said. “Peace is not an option. You don’t negotiate with bloodthirsty, jihadist killers.”

While he was in the Marines, Ryberg said, he was often asked, “If you’re a Christian, why do you want to go to war to kill people?”

Ryberg said he wants Americans to understand that it’s an act of love to kill evil people who seek to kill Americans.

“If we do take their life, they will kill no more. It’s an act of love for our nation,” Ryberg said.

He explained the importance of government and said that without government, chaos would ensue.

“We are all sinful creatures with a sin nature,” he proclaimed. “Sinful mankind left unrestrained will cause chaos.”

Ryberg justified capital punishment and said it’s in the Bible. God ordains the principle of taking life as an instrument of his justice, he added.

“God gaveth long before our nation was born. It’s always been on the books. And [the Bible] is the highest law of the land,” Ryberg said.

“And I want to let you know our Supreme Court, they’re not supreme, only God is. And [the Bible] is the supreme law of the land, and the buck stops here.”

The sound of shuffling Bible pages reverberated across the pews as Ryberg asked worshippers to note specific passages. Ryberg often referenced passages that he interpreted as relating to war and its justification.

He said that only God gives life and only God takes life, but said God gave Noah the right to take the life of an evil man who sheds innocent blood.

Ryberg said that Abraham fought the first biblical war in the word of God.

He said God told Abraham to go to war with his “well-trained” servants, his army. Ryberg said God won that war by coming down and killing his enemies.

“There’s none other; there’s none higher; there’s none greater than our God,” Ryberg said.

“The only day we will have perfect peace is the day Jesus Christ comes back. … Our Lord’s coming back, folks,” he said.

Jerry Gibbons, who served in the Army for eight years, wanted to hear the colonel speak.

“I’m very impressed to see someone who has served that long on active duty and still have that much faith in God, our country and government,” Gibbons said.

Marcella Weaver said the sermon seemed to the point. To her, it justified war.

“God says that we are to help those being attacked by the bloodthirsty,” she said, “and it’s an act of love.”

Laura Followell can be reached at (812) 231-4253 or

laura.followell@tribstar.com .

Source:
http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_...126235058.html
lol,

if i had said any of that stuff about the western terrorist i would be locked up for instigating terrorism!

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Muezzin
05-20-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
It seems clear to me his intent was not simply to show that religious fanataicism exists in the West. He was making the argument that it is pervasive and is driving the war. Was it an accident he cited two former military offciers when the military makes up less than 1 % of the US population and the number of mid-grade and general officers is certainly less than 1/1000 of the military.

So the odds of him randomly picking two individuals with those characteristics is about (.01*.001)**2...which is 10 E-10 or about 10 billion to 1 :)
That's all well and good. That's what he may have been saying. I was not saying that, which is why I was puzzled Barney was acting as if I was saying that.

Nutters of all faiths tarnish religion's reptuation.
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
That's all well and good. That's what he may have been saying. I was not saying that, which is why I was puzzled Barney was acting as if I was saying that.

Nutters of all faiths tarnish religion's reptuation.
Oh i agree without doubt. But as pointed out above, the general trend on this thread (and others) is that Western policy is driven by Christian fanatics. it's just not. For those unfamiliar with the west, that may be hard to understand.

The west is secular..getting more and more so as the years pass by, hooray!
The average Tommy and GI worships Manchester United and the Red Sox and thats whats driving their lives, not Christianity. When they fight, they are doing their job and for a few "doing something for their country".

The religious services in my time in the army were VERY popular. We got to sit down for half a hour and doze off. Fantastic skive. Picking out some Yank officer who makes Jack Chick look moderate and using that as a "Battle of religions" supporting arguement is farcical.
Reply

Dawud_uk
05-21-2007, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Oh i agree without doubt. But as pointed out above, the general trend on this thread (and others) is that Western policy is driven by Christian fanatics. it's just not. For those unfamiliar with the west, that may be hard to understand.

The west is secular..getting more and more so as the years pass by, hooray!
The average Tommy and GI worships Manchester United and the Red Sox and thats whats driving their lives, not Christianity. When they fight, they are doing their job and for a few "doing something for their country".

The religious services in my time in the army were VERY popular. We got to sit down for half a hour and doze off. Fantastic skive. Picking out some Yank officer who makes Jack Chick look moderate and using that as a "Battle of religions" supporting arguement is farcical.
whether the war is primarily Western christianity - v - Islam or Western Secularism - v - Islam is pretty academic anyway, the muslims still only have one real solution to the problem which is to fight back and drive the kuffar from our lands and lives.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

MTAFFI
05-21-2007, 01:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
whether the war is primarily Western christianity - v - Islam or Western Secularism - v - Islam is pretty academic anyway, the muslims still only have one real solution to the problem which is to fight back and drive the kuffar from our lands and lives.

Abu Abdullah
so the kuffar have to be driven from your lands, why cant the Muslims be driven from our lands. I tell you what, when you round up all of the muslims scattered around the globe in other countries and bring them back to "your land", I guarantee you that you wont have to be bothered with anymore.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-21-2007, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
whether the war is primarily Western christianity - v - Islam or Western Secularism - v - Islam is pretty academic anyway, the muslims still only have one real solution to the problem which is to fight back and drive the kuffar from our lands and lives.

Abu Abdullah
Like the UK, you mean? Was the Isle of Wight part of the old Caliphate or something?

The war isn't Islam vs. Anything save perhaps Islam vs Islam. In fact, in Iraq, the great bulk of the violence is sectarian.
Reply

Zman
05-21-2007, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
why cant the Muslims be driven from our lands.

Because, no Muslim nation is occupying any Western state.

No Muslim nation has institued or is instituting genocidal sanctions against an entire Western state.

No Muslim nation is propping up an unelected Western government against it's people.

No Muslim nation has militarily invaded a Western state.

No Muslim nation is attempting to exploit Western natural resources.

No Muslim nation has instituted nor supported any coups against a Western state.

No Muslim nation has military bases in the Western hemisphere.

No Muslim nation has sent armies to "liberate" citizens in the Western hemisphere.

And on, and on...
Reply

Cognescenti
05-21-2007, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
[i]
Because, no Muslim nation is occupying any Western state.
Tell you what. You give us back the Byzantine Empire and Dearborn, Michigan and you guys can have Yemen and Somalia.

You might asks the Greeks about Cyprus of the Serbs about Kosovo...or for that matter, you might ask the Albanians if they are lost.

No Muslim nation has institued or is instituting genocidal sanctions against an entire Western state.
Just from a definitional standpoint, "genocide" refers to the intentional extermination of entire ethnic, racial or religious group. Words mean things. If you want to talk about genocide, you might ask your buds the Turks what they did with all those pesky Armenians.

No Muslim nation is propping up an unelected Western government against it's people.
Not sure where you are going with this...but Syria and Iran are undermining the duly elected government of Lebanon

No Muslim nation has militarily invaded a Western state.
Unless you count Israel...what are we up to now, 4 or 5 times? I lost count. In general, however, I am glad the Pacific and Atlantic oceans are where they are

No Muslim nation is attempting to exploit Western natural resources.
Where do you think all the steel for the building boom in Dubai comes from? Ever hear of OPEC? It's called the global economy, guy.

No Muslim nation has instituted nor supported any coups against a Western state.
Iran openly supported the Bosnians vs. the Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians. Somebody is funding Abu Sayaf in the the Philippines. Somebody is funging the Muslim insurgents in Thailand.

No Muslim nation has military bases in the Western hemisphere.
Thank God for the Pacific and Atlantic and the absence of an Islamic Fleet.

No Muslim nation has sent armies to "liberate" citizens in the Western hemisphere.
Cyprus...Bosnia....kosovo...Spain ....they just aren't very good at it.
Reply

Muezzin
05-21-2007, 03:32 PM
We're straying from the subject, guys.
Reply

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