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Sinbad
05-14-2007, 02:12 AM
Some people say that islam is the fastest growing religion cause that people choose to convert. But is that really how it is?

Everey where in the islamic world milions of christians and other people get this.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-5-2007_pg7_18

Iraqs zoroastrians have all been forced to convert to islam or get killed.

Then we got the number of child births, Lebanons christians have 2 children the muslims 10.

My point is can islam be growing cause of the wrong reasons? Cause i hear of a lot of ex muslims leaving islam.
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Woodrow
05-15-2007, 08:46 PM
I believe that is nearly impossible to prove in either direction. The best evidence is to understand that Islam as we know it, was revealed in Saudi Arabia. The initial followers were Arabs. Today less than 20% of the worlds Muslims are of Arab ancestry. there are revertions taking place somewhere along the line.
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Amadeus85
05-15-2007, 09:01 PM
Yes islam is the fastest growing religion nowadays in world. But it is more due to high birth rates than converts.
Among muslim countries, just few,like Tunisia or Turkey, have birth rate lower than 2,1.
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- Qatada -
05-15-2007, 09:03 PM
:salamext:


Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]
To have hypocrites amongst the muslims is much more dangerous than to have non muslims as an opposition. Since the hypocrites can harm the muslims from the inside, whereas the clear enemy who opposes the muslims is less of a threat.

So the argument that Islaam encourages others to be forced into the religion falls dead on its face. :)
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 09:12 PM
Islam the Fastest Growing Religion



50,000 French Accepted Islam In 50 Years: Intelligence - IOL

Thousands Of British Elite Embrace Islam: Study

America: Islam is finding a niche in the West

Islam spreading in Christian South Africa

Islam Attracting Many Survivors of Rwanda Genocide - Washington Post

Mohammed's religion finds a place in Haiti

Islam fastest growing faith in Australia

Where the Moors Held Sway, Allah Is Praised Again - NY Times

Seattle Times: Muslim in America

Rwanda: Islam blooms in genocide's wake

Rwanda Turns to Islam After Genocide

Muslims in Western Europe - Newsweek

Newsminer: Islam in Fairbanks

Refugees attracting Americans to Islam

CNN: Fastest growing Religion Islam Cached [10Kb]

BIC News: Fastest and Misunderstood religion

Washington Report: Muslims in America

Islam Luring More Latinos - Washington Post

Islam to become 2nd largest faith practised in US - Times Of India

Islam is fastest-growing religion in U.S - The Sacramento Bee

Islam Offers Identity For Some Blacks - The Tampa Tribune

Do Muslims not belong in this Christian Europe? - Independent, UK

Making do without the mainstream - Guardian, UK

Islam 'will be dominant UK religion'

Militant Aborigines embrace Islam to seek empowerment

America Free but Immoral

Comprehensive Survey of US Muslims

Faith: Islam's third run for Europe
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Umar001
05-15-2007, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad

My point is can islam be growing cause of the wrong reasons? Cause i hear of a lot of ex muslims leaving islam.
I know in south london the number of people embracing islam is high, one masjid had the average of one a day over two weeks of people researching raeding and then coming back, another mosque that I know is about 60% reverts. :statisfie

As for people leaving Islam theres always gonna be people leaving places or religions, but I doubt the number is anything like what it might claim to be, plus out of all those videos I have seen most of them leave because of most illogical reasons.
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جوري
05-15-2007, 09:20 PM
thanks.. what a great post... I tried repping you but alas.. I have passed my daily quota for the day it seems lol :-[
:w:
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Amadeus85
05-15-2007, 09:40 PM
I know that it is not important , but actually the fastest growing religion by converts only, is christianity.
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rubiesand
05-15-2007, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron
But it is more due to high birth
Hi Aaron,

As a Christian can you tell me who you believe is blessing the Muslims with many children if not God? I don't see how it makes a difference whether Islam is growing by conversions or births, surely either way it is the will of God.
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Amadeus85
05-15-2007, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rubiesand
Hi Aaron,

As a Christian can you tell me who you believe is blessing the Muslims with many children if not God? I don't see how it makes a difference whether Islam is growing by conversions or births, surely either way it is the will of God.
I could say the same- that so many people in world become christians because it is God's will. :)
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 11:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I know that it is not important , but actually the fastest growing religion by converts only, is christianity.
:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::h aha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:


proof?
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borboski
05-15-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]
To have hypocrites amongst the muslims is much more dangerous than to have non muslims as an opposition. Since the hypocrites can harm the muslims from the inside, whereas the clear enemy who opposes the muslims is less of a threat.

So the argument that Islaam encourages others to be forced into the religion falls dead on its face. :)
I don't think you've quite proved your point there matey! :)
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rubiesand
05-15-2007, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron
I could say the same- that so many people in world become christians because it is God's will.
Sure, but it's always brought up when people talk about the growth of Islam, saying it's not because of conversions, it's because of birth rate, as if the children that God blesses us with don't really count.
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vpb
05-15-2007, 11:20 PM
I know that it is not important , but actually the fastest growing religion by converts only, is christianity.
yeah you can think of that, and when you wake up your cover sheet is at your feets. :D:D:D:p It is said "The wish is bigger than Istanbul".
The only thing you are trying now is to bring people and teach them about christianity so you can keep them busy and away from Islam, bc even your priests and pastors are turning to Islam. Every religion today in the world is feeling the threat from Islam, bc people are seeing the truth, they are fed with un-explained concepts and stuff like that.
The only people that leave Islam are the ones who don't have knowledge about Islam at all, or for political/economic reasons. No one else. It's impossible to know about Islam and have some healthy knowledge and leave it, only if the person is mentally challanged.
but not to forget that if Allah swt wants to misguide someone, no one can stop Allah swt even if you are a scholar, you will deviate from the truth, but may Allah makes us not among those who deviate. Ameen
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borboski
05-15-2007, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rubiesand
Sure, but it's always brought up when people talk about the growth of Islam, saying it's not because of conversions, it's because of birth rate, as if the children that God blesses us with don't really count.
Well, you must admit, there's a difference between believing in your particular faith solely because your parents told you "this is true", and choosing a faith once you're an adult?

The reason that Islam will be growing is because, conversely, the very poorest people breed the most (you need to have many kids, as most will die, and then you have some left to support you). In many societies Islam props up the usual patriachal (male-dominated) order, e.g. keeping women wrapped up, in the home, stopping them from entering the labour market, which of course keeps people poor: They are more likely to have kids - and as living conditions increase, they KEEP having kids - who then all survive - and so we end up with over population and even more poverty.
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snakelegs
05-15-2007, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rubiesand
Sure, but it's always brought up when people talk about the growth of Islam, saying it's not because of conversions, it's because of birth rate, as if the children that God blesses us with don't really count.
true!
there is no denying that birth rate is not the only reason. judging by this forum and other muslims i've met on the web, there are plenty of people embracing islam.
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Keltoi
05-15-2007, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
true!
there is no denying that birth rate is not the only reason. judging by this forum and other muslims i've met on the web, there are plenty of people embracing islam.
Plenty of people used to buy Backstreet Boys albums too....

That was a joke for those who didn't know.
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جوري
05-15-2007, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
Well, you must admit, there's a difference between believing in your particular faith solely because your parents told you "this is true", and choosing a faith once you're an adult?

The reason that Islam will be growing is because, conversely, the very poorest people breed the most (you need to have many kids, as most will die, and then you have some left to support you). In many societies Islam props up the usual patriachal (male-dominated) order, e.g. keeping women wrapped up, in the home, stopping them from entering the labour market, which of course keeps people poor: They are more likely to have kids - and as living conditions increase, they KEEP having kids - who then all survive - and so we end up with over population and even more poverty.
Borborygmi:

What a masterful epidemiologist you are -- here are some basic facts about Muslim earnings in the U.S. should take care of how poor we are
also Most (covered up) Muslim women I know have a doctorate or equivalent pharmD.. how many Muslim women do you know?


Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html



peace!
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Encolpius
05-15-2007, 11:39 PM
Well I think I dug up an article a while back which explained that religious folks are generally having more children than non-religious ones as a whole, which doesn't surprise me actually. Although I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on this, and people here should take this as they will, but religious folks do tend to be more family-oriented than irreligious ones. Many are the screeds from a religious point of view which stress the importance of a woman's place as a home maker that I have encountered and, while these are not necessarily demanded by the Bible or the Qu'ran or whatever, they still seem to have a substantial following amongst adherents to such beliefs.

What would be exceptionally interesting, though, and I will thank profusely the person who can find such an item, is a detailed socio-economic study of people who convert to any Abrahamic religion, and/or what factors led them to convert.
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snakelegs
05-15-2007, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Plenty of people used to buy Backstreet Boys albums too....

That was a joke for those who didn't know.
dunno who they are even - i am "out of it"!
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vpb
05-15-2007, 11:47 PM
Plenty of people used to buy Backstreet Boys albums too....

That was a joke for those who didn't know.
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo:

very argumentative.

:bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo:
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ranma1/2
05-16-2007, 12:11 AM
Im not sure how fast Islam is Rowing. Ill watch the next olympics...

ok serious now. So what if it is? It sounds like its a god !"#$ measuring contest. Even is religion A is growing faster than religion B it just means that.
It does not mean A will eventually overtake B or become the dominate religion and even if it did it still does not show it to be the correct religion.

I would be interested in what these new memeber of a religion tend to be.

Say people from religion A adopt religion B , what exactly did they adopt.
Same for converts from B to A.

Also as mentioned earlier, how many of this new population are being indoctrinated as a child rather than converts? Is it just a matter of breeding faster than the other guy?

As i said I find the my religion is growing faster than yours argument to be worthless.
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جوري
05-16-2007, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2

As i said I find the my religion is growing faster than yours argument to be worthless.
then don't participate in a topic that you find worthless. As you can see the topic was started by a non-Muslim who wanted some facts... he got some articles out of it and a whole lot of opinion. From which he can draw whatever conclusion he wishes...
end of story!

peace!
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Keltoi
05-16-2007, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo:

very argumentative.

:bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo::bravo:
Argumentative? I was using humor to illustrate the pointlessness of arguing about what religion is growing in numbers faster than another. In a religious sense it doesn't matter how many people call themselves either Muslim or Christian, but what each of us are doing as individuals.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
In a religious sense it doesn't matter how many people call themselves either Muslim or Christian, but what each of us are doing as individuals.
so true!
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borboski
05-16-2007, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Borborygmi:
What a masterful epidemiologist you are -- here are some basic facts about Muslim earnings in the U.S. should take care of how poor we are
also Most (covered up) Muslim women I know have a doctorate or equivalent pharmD.. how many Muslim women do you know?
Well I'm not an epidemologist, but I wouldn't argue the relative wealth of Muslims or other groups on the basis of how many muslim women I know. That would be utterly ridiculous. Of course - the muslim women I know are middle class, educated, affluent, but then I'm middle class, educated, and affluent so there you have it...

There's no need to be self conscious - the reason that the majority of the world's muslim population isn't because they are muslim. What I explained is just one of the factors why across the world the muslim population will be growing.

Yes, yes, I'm sure immigrants into the US do well (I'd expect this, it takes a lot of motivation and courage to migrate somewhere) - but you can't honestly believe that the world's muslim population isn't by and large living in poverty?

Interesting recent article on why the Middle East doesn't matter in the current Prospect:

We devote far too much attention to the middle east, a mostly stagnant region where almost nothing is created in science or the arts—excluding Israel, per capita patent production of countries in the middle east is one fifth that of sub-Saharan Africa. The people of the middle east (only about five per cent of the world's population) are remarkably unproductive, with a high proportion not in the labour force at all. Not many of us would care to work if we were citizens of Abu Dhabi, with lots of oil money for very few citizens. But Saudi Arabia's 27m inhabitants also live largely off the oil revenues that trickle down to them, leaving most of the work to foreign technicians and labourers: even with high oil prices, Saudi Arabia's annual per capita income, at $14,000, is only about half that of oil-free Israel.
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aamirsaab
05-16-2007, 08:50 AM
:sl:
There are those who accept Islam as their religion, but this does not mean that they are practicing it.

Same goes for any religion.

The rate of growth for a religion is meaningless unless the members are practicing the teachings.
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Musalmaan
05-16-2007, 09:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sinbad
Some people say that islam is the fastest growing religion cause that people choose to convert. But is that really how it is?

Everey where in the islamic world milions of christians and other people get this.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-5-2007_pg7_18

Iraqs zoroastrians have all been forced to convert to islam or get killed.

Then we got the number of child births, Lebanons christians have 2 children the muslims 10.

My point is can islam be growing cause of the wrong reasons? Cause i hear of a lot of ex muslims leaving islam.
thats funny, any body could write and distribute those letter,
and i think
it is an anti-taliban plots who wants ppl. to go against taliban and suppress them and Islamic teaching through it.

ofcourse even if somebody declare himself muslim by compulsion, he is not muslim at all, for muslim is the one who himself/herself declare
"Lailaa ha ilallah Muhammad dur Rasoolullah"
"there is no diety except Allah, Muhammad is His messenger"

Islam spreads by islamic way and teachings by the will of Amighty Allah.
:w:
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 01:24 PM
Unless you can bring proof to back up your statements to prove otherwise, I suggest you zip it!

END OF TOPIC!
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جوري
05-16-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
Well I'm not an epidemologist, but I wouldn't argue the relative wealth of Muslims or other groups on the basis of how many muslim women I know. That would be utterly ridiculous. Of course - the muslim women I know are middle class, educated, affluent, but then I'm middle class, educated, and affluent so there you have it...

There's no need to be self conscious - the reason that the majority of the world's muslim population isn't because they are muslim. What I explained is just one of the factors why across the world the muslim population will be growing.

Yes, yes, I'm sure immigrants into the US do well (I'd expect this, it takes a lot of motivation and courage to migrate somewhere) - but you can't honestly believe that the world's muslim population isn't by and large living in poverty?

Interesting recent article on why the Middle East doesn't matter in the current Prospect:
Ha? Egypt has more female doctors than does the U.S. Iran has more women sitting in their equivalent house of representative than women in the U.S...
Israel is oh so advanced because all of the tax money that is funneled to them from suckers in the United States.
A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting

By Shirl McArthur
With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.

This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.

The package also included $225 million in military aid for Egypt and $75 million in security assistance for Jordan. The $450 million for Israel is not included in these calculations, because it is unclear at this writing whether Congress will approve the package in the current political climate.


Calculating Total U.S. Aid
Unquestionably, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. Estimates for total U.S. aid to Israel vary, however, because of the uncertainties and ambiguities described above. An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion. On the other hand, last year the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs estimated total aid to Israel through FY 2000 at $91.82 billion.

The CRS number surely is too low, because, although it does include such things as the old food-for-peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, and the current subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” it does not include money from the DOD budget, on the grounds that those funds are for joint research and development projects. Nor does the CRS figure include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid funds. Last year’s Washington Report estimate imputes an amount for “other aid” (including the DOD) that may no longer be valid, based as it is on a thorough study of three representative years. While this year’s estimate is more conservative, the results are still shockingly high.

To the CRS number of $81.38 billion through FY 2000 can be added (with details to follow):

• $4.28 billion from the DOD; and

• $1.72 billion in interest from early disbursement of aid, for a total of $87.38 billion through Sept. 30, 2000. To that can be added the $3.22 billion detailed above, giving a grand total of $90.6 billion total aid to Israel through FY 2001. Approval of Clinton’s special request for $450 million more in military aid would push the number over $91 billion.


Defense Department Funds
A search going back several years was able to identify $3.423 billion in specific DOD line items appropriated to Israel. Since that figure includes only the programs that were uncovered, it is reasonable to add 25 percent, or $856 million, to account for what was not found. The largest items in the DOD budget were $1.3 billion for the cancelled Lavi attack fighter project; $628 million for the ongoing Arrow anti-missile missile project; and $200 million for the completed Merkava tank. The fact that the U.S. military was not interested in the Lavi or the Merkava for its own use and has said the same thing about the Arrow would seem to invalidate the argument that these are “joint defense projects.”


Interest
Israel began receiving early disbursement of U.S. economic aid in 1982, and of military aid in 1991. It would be inaccurate to simply apply the rate of interest to the amount of aid, because it has to be assumed that the aid monies were drawn down over the course of the year. In 1991 it was reported that Israel earned $86 million in interest on the economic aid money deposited in the U.S. Treasury. Since the period from 1982 to 1991 was a time of relatively high interest rates, the figure of $860 million (86 x 10) seems a reasonably conservative estimate for those 10 years. For the nine years since 1991, a 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the economic aid, for a total of $324 million over the past decade.

On the military aid, the 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the military aid for the 10 years it has been disbursed early, for a total of $540 million.


Some Comparisons
The impressive numbers for U.S. aid to Israel become even more so when they, and the attached conditions, are compared with other Middle East countries. The roughly $3.3 billion in annual aid compares with some $2 billion for Egypt, $225 million for Jordan, and $35 million for Lebanon. Aid for the Palestinian Authority (PA) is not earmarked, but has been running at about $100 million. Furthermore, aid to the PA is strictly controlled by the U.S. Agency for International Development, and goes for specific projects, mostly civil infrastructure projects such as water and sewers.

On the other hand, the U.S. gives Israel all of its economic aid directly in cash, with no accounting of how the funds are used. The military aid from the DOD budget is mostly for specific projects. Significantly however, considering current events, one of those projects was the development of the Merkava tank, which has been encircling and firing on Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza.

The only condition the congressional foreign aid bill places on military aid to Israel is that about 75 percent of it has to be spent in the U.S. In contrast with other countries receiving military aid, however, who purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies, with no DOD review.

Special mention should also be made of the details of the Wye agreement. All of the $400 million going to the PA under the agreement is economic aid, whereas all of the $1.2 billion for Israel is for military projects and programs. These include $40 million for armored personnel carriers and $360 million for Apache helicopters, again significant considering current events.


Loans, The “Cranston Amendment,” and Loan Guarantees
Currently, Israel owes the U.S. government almost $3 billion in economic and military loans. Direct government-to-government loans are included in the above numbers for total aid, because repayment of several loans has been “waived” by the U.S. Israeli officials are fond of saying that Israel has never defaulted on a loan from the U.S. Technically, this is true. The CRS report, however, notes that from FY 1994 through FY 1998 $29 billion in U.S. loans have been waived for Israel. Therefore, it is reasonable to consider all loans to Israel the same as grants.

There seems to be much confusion about the so-called “Cranston Amendment,” named after the California senator who sponsored it in 1984. The amendment said, simply, that it is “the policy and intention” of the U.S. to give Israel economic aid “not less than” the amount Israel owes the U.S. in annual debt interest and principal payments.

Since official economic aid to Israel has always been considerably higher than the annual debt repayments, this is something of a non-issue. Furthermore, since the amendment is simply a statement of policy and intent, it may not be legally binding. In any event, although the amendment was included in every aid appropriations bill through FY 1998, it has not been repeated in the FY 1999, 2000, and 2001 appropriations bills.

The amount of U.S. government loan guarantees to Israel was not included in the above numbers, because they have not cost the U.S. any money (yet), although they are listed as “contingent liabilities” (that is, they would become liabilities to the U.S. should Israel default). Nevertheless, they unquestionably have been of tangible financial benefit to Israel. The major loan guarantees issued by Washington have been $600 million for housing between 1972 and 1990; the much publicized $10 billion for Soviet Jewish resettlement between 1992 and 1997; and some $5 billion for refinancing military loans commercially. Currently, the total U.S. contingent liability for Israeli loans is about $10 billion.


The Neeman Agreement
After Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told Congress in 1996 that he wanted to reduce the level of U.S. economic aid to Israel, Israeli Finance Minister Yaacov Neeman met with members of Congress in January 1998 to negotiate the details. After much backing and forthing, they reached agreement that Israel’s then-$1.2 billion in economic aid would be decreased annually, beginning FY 1999, by $120 million, and the $1.8 billion in military aid would be increased by half that, or $60 million.

As a little-reported part of the deal, the amount of military aid that Israel was allowed to spend in Israel would be increased by $15 million per year. From FY 1988 through 1990 Israel was allowed to use $400 million of its $1.8 billion U.S. military aid in Israel. Beginning in FY 1991 that was increased to $475 million. As a result of the Neeman agreement, beginning in FY 1999 the aid appropriations bill gave the amount to be spent in Israel as a percentage of the total, rather than a stated amount. This maneuver helped hide from U.S. defense contractors the fact that the U.S. direct subsidy to their Israeli competitors was being increased by $15 million per year. For FY 2001 the stated percentage works out to $520 million. None of this is included in the above figures, because it does not represent a direct cost to the U.S. taxpayers. It is clearly an indirect cost, however, in terms of lost tax revenue and lost business for American companies. X

Shirl McArthur, a retired foreign service officer, is a consultant in the Washington, DC area.

SIDEBAR #1


Arab Americans Lose Ground in Congress
While Arab-American candidates broke even in the 2000 elections for the House of Representatives, a major loss was suffered in the Senate, where the only Arab-American senator, Michigan Republican Spencer Abraham, was narrowly and unexpectedly defeated by former Rep. Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Stabenow had a neutral score in this magazine’s Congressional Report Card (August/September issue), with one positive and one negative mark, although she did sign the letter to President Clinton urging the delinking of the economic sanctions against Iraq from the military sanctions.

In the House, Arab-American Reps. John Baldacci (D-ME), Chris John (D-LA), Ray LaHood (R-IL), Nick Rahall (D-WV), and John Sununu (R-NH) all were re-elected. In addition, Republican newcomer Darrell Issa was easily elected in California. Issa’s victory offset the narrow defeat of Democrat Steve Danner in Missouri for the seat previously held by retiring Rep. Pat Danner (D-MO).

Other re-elected representatives sympathetic to issues important to Arab Americans include Reps. David Bonior (D-MI), John Conyers (D-MI), Tom Davis (R-VA), John Dingell (D-MI), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Bob Ney (R-OH), and Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). Unfortunately, a champion of Arab-American issues was lost when Rep. Tom Campbell (R-CA) failed in his bid to unseat Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA).

Other congressional election news included the surprise defeat of Rep. Sam Gejdenson (D-CT), who was the ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee. Although he was widely considered a good friend of Israel, Gejdenson’s report card was only slightly negative, with no positive and one negative mark. He is expected to be replaced as ranking Democrat on the committee by Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA), also considered a strong friend of Israel. A Holocaust survivor, Lantos might be expected to be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians living under the heel of a brutal occupying power, but his report card showed one positive and two negative marks. Lantos also signed the letter to Clinton urging the president to “stand firm” in keeping the economic sanctions on Iraq.
Maybe things are clearer now?.. if it weren't for puppet govt. of the middle east. these so-called under educated wrapped women would have had better opportunities. the same afforded all women in Islam-- the Prophet (PBUH) used to work for a woman!
he also used to take his wife to teach her how to read and write.
Hind was a female Muslim woman who during the Muslim empire took from state funds to start her own business...Women used to go out on the battle field along side men like Om 'Omara, the first person ever to be tortured for embracing Islam was a woman... women hold a very high status in Islam.. if it weren't the case, there would be nothing stopping us Muslim women born and raised in the west from living whatever sort of life style we want... We are Muslim by choice!

if you want to associate poverty of Muslim women ergo corrupt govt. instilled and maintained by tyrants I have no problem with that... There are no Islamic state any where in the world to blame current climate on!
and nothing in Islam, that says... women go be uneducated objects.... in other words poverty befalls all middle eastern women just the same whether Muslims or christian for the same virtues-- and Islam has nothing to do with it! Except of course I see more Christian immigrants here from the middle east than I do Muslim ones, as they are simply granted refugee over their Muslim counterparts!

if you have something of substance to impart, please do, otherwise keep worthless opinions to yourself, or share it with like minds. They'll just be mocked here.
http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309 << achievments under Islamic states. When true Islam was implemented
peace!
Reply

Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
:haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha::h aha::haha::haha::haha::haha::haha:


proof?
There are many proofs-

- In the 20th Century, Christianity became the religion of the majority in sub-Saharan Africa. In 1900 there were 8 million. Christians (10% of the population of Africa); by 2000 there were 351 million (48.4% of the population of Africa — 60% of sub-Saharan Africa).

There are 379.4 millions christians in Africa now and 324.1 millions muslims.

http://www.gmi.org/ow/region/af/owtext.html#Pray2


3,000 Christians added daily in China

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=53808


Ahmad Al Qataani أحمد القطعاني An important Islamic cleric who said about Africa: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."


http://albertusminimus.typepad.com/a...nt_muslim.html
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
There are many proofs-

- In the 20th Century, Christianity became the religion of the majority in sub-Saharan Africa. In 1900 there were 8 million. Christians (10% of the population of Africa); by 2000 there were 351 million (48.4% of the population of Africa — 60% of sub-Saharan Africa).

There are 379.4 millions christians in Africa now and 324.1 millions muslims.

http://www.gmi.org/ow/region/af/owtext.html#Pray2


3,000 Christians added daily in China

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=53808


Ahmad Al Qataani أحمد القطعاني An important Islamic cleric who said about Africa: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."


http://albertusminimus.typepad.com/a...nt_muslim.html
Let's not even go there. We know very well missionaries go to africa and offer food and bible together, no bible means no food. When you have natiosn starving to death and you give them food then they'll do whatever they have to get that food.

These same missionaries tried the same thing in india post tsunami tragedy. The local indiand refused the bible and the missionaries took their trucks of food and clothing and stuff without giving. This made the news in india's local papers. So we know what kind of "converting" christian missionary fanatics are doing...
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- Qatada -
05-16-2007, 04:21 PM
:salamext:


The basic thing is, your religions got to make sense. :) If it doesn't - then that shows that it's basically not the truth. And the praise is for Allaah that islaam makes the most sense, and it is the only religion accepted in the sight of God.

No soul bears the burden of another, and any person who submits to their Creator and Sustainer in the way He wants them too - their reward is with Him, whereas those who associate partners with God, and reject His Messengers' - taking a pick and mix of some while rejecting others, they are the true disbelievers. And there recompense is hell. We seek refuge in Allaah from that.
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جوري
05-16-2007, 04:39 PM
I actually stayed in Tanzania for sometime, and you wouldn't believe the tricks of the missionaries bribing the boys with bikes. Ironically one Hindu teacher came to a Muslim professor and told him to keep his Muslim kids in class and away from the missionaries and he told her, there is no compulsion in religion, if Christianity wishes to win him over with a bike, and he feels, that is the way to go then so be it...
Religion is a personal choice, a product of reflection and search-- not an act of bribery and certainly shouldn't be the fruit for desperation.
What a sad world we live in!
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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Let's not even go there. We know very well missionaries go to africa and offer food and bible together, no bible means no food. When you have natiosn starving to death and you give them food then they'll do whatever they have to get that food.

These same missionaries tried the same thing in india post tsunami tragedy. The local indiand refused the bible and the missionaries took their trucks of food and clothing and stuff without giving. This made the news in india's local papers. So we know what kind of "converting" christian missionary fanatics are doing...
Muslim missionaries do the same thing- come to mosque, say shahada and you will get food and clothes. So where is the difference?
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- Qatada -
05-16-2007, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Muslim missionaries do the same thing- come to mosque, say shahada and you will get food and clothes. So where is the difference?

The difference is that a person believes and will submit to God even if they don't get presents off others, they submit because it makes sense and they understand the purpose of why they are created - so they work hard to fulfill it in order to be rewarded by God for their efforts. And they fear a punishment from God if they turn away from the truth, because that would mean that they are taking their desires as gods besides the One who gave us life and gives us all we have when before we were nothing.
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Encolpius
05-16-2007, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The difference is that a person believes and will submit to God even if they don't get presents off others, they submit because it makes sense and they understand the purpose of why they are created - so they work hard to fulfill it in order to be rewarded by God for their efforts. And they fear a punishment from God if they turn away from the truth, because that would mean that they are taking their desires as gods besides the One who gave us life and gives us all we have when before we were nothing.
But how can they know that it makes sense if they're just going through the motions and see it simply as a meaningless condition of getting the handouts without knowing why they're declaring their faith or having read or been told anything about what said declaration actually means?

Logically, isn't it both sides of the same coin?
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Muslim missionaries do the same thing- come to mosque, say shahada and you will get food and clothes. So where is the difference?

Muslims go tell about Monotheism and Islam and the right path. Christians go and give you food or bikes or something monetary and bribe you. BIG difference there!
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جوري
05-16-2007, 05:50 PM
^^This isn't an opportune time for anyone to become Muslim... Anyone who even subtly advertises for Islam is considered a "terrorist"... those who come to take their shahada under such circumstances, I'd have to believe are more interested in becoming Muslims than actual natural born Muslims.. so I hope that takes care of your theories!

peace
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Encolpius
05-16-2007, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims go tell about Monotheism and Islam and the right path. Christians go and give you food or bikes or something monetary and bribe you. BIG difference there!
Except it isn't because you've avoided the question.

Aaron's original post was about how certain Muslim missionaries provide food and clothes in disaster areas in return for saying shahadah. Much like how certain Christian missionaries do the same in return for also accepting a bible and suchlike.
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- Qatada -
05-16-2007, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Encolpius
But how can they know that it makes sense if they're just going through the motions and see it simply as a meaningless condition of getting the handouts without knowing why they're declaring their faith or having read or been told anything about what said declaration actually means?

Logically, isn't it both sides of the same coin?

This is why it's not our jobs as Muslims to convert anyone, it's our duty to convey the message however.

Those who understand it's basic logic, of One Creator, who is alone worthy of worship, and He sends Messengers' to His servants to convey the message clearly and to unite people on what they differed. The Messenger who tells the people to worship God Alone, to establish the prayer, to pay in charity, to help the needy, to enjoin the ties of kinship, to be kind to the creation.

The Messenger who warns the people that every soul is responsible for its actions and deeds, and those who obey the Messenger and worship none but their Creator & Sustainer Alone will be rewarded by Him, whereas those who associate others as partners with God in worship [i.e. stone idols, humans, man-made philosophies] will be punished for disobeying the message of God, and taking it in jest, saying that God does not send any message to His servants and allows them to stray, without ever being returned to Him. Is that logical?


What should be the punishment for those who reject God's Message? And what should be the reward for those who accept God's Message and do good works to please Him? The fire is for those who are too arrogant to worship God Alone and obey His Messengers', yet those who do good to please Him - there reward will be Paradise, gardens beneath which rivers flow in the Presence of their Lord, He is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. They will abide therein forever.


The declaration of faith is to testify that i believe that there is none worthy of worship except God Alone, and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is God's final Messenger. The call has been the same of ALL the prophets of God, and never did a messenger come to his people and say worship me as an associate with God, rather they called their people to worship God Alone. No other deities attatched. And they warned us of the Day of Judgement, when we will be gathered infront of our Creator without a doubt, and He will judge us all on what we differed.




Regards.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Encolpius
Except it isn't because you've avoided the question.

Aaron's original post was about how certain Muslim missionaries provide food and clothes in disaster areas in return for saying shahadah. Much like how certain Christian missionaries do the same in return for also accepting a bible and suchlike.
well aaron needs to bring his proofs that Muslims do that. Muslims do good deeds to earn the reward from Allah for their actions. They help muslims and non-Muslims in the disaster area for humanitarian sake and for their good deeds, pleasing Allah. They are not out to convert others.

Christians on the other hands are out there to get more numbers, which is why they resort to trickery, bribery and decpetion. They are missionaries because they go on missions, it's their missions to convert. They focus on poor uneducated areas mostly becuase the people would have little knowledge to refute and more hunger to accept whatever they say.

Muslimls on the other hand give dawaah to their own local communities, not go to these places to "buy" converts. And Muslim's don't convert others, they job is only to convey the message of Islam. It is Allah who guides whom He so pleases. So we just give the message and even tell them to think carefully before converting to make sure this is what they want.

Like i said, BIG difference.
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Encolpius
05-16-2007, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
well aaron needs to bring his proofs that Muslims do that. Muslims do good deeds to earn the reward from Allah for their actions. They help muslims and non-Muslims in the disaster area for humanitarian sake and for their good deeds, pleasing Allah. They are not out to convert others.

Christians on the other hands are out there to get more numbers, which is why they resort to trickery, bribery and decpetion. They are missionaries because they go on missions, it's their missions to convert. They focus on poor uneducated areas mostly becuase the people would have little knowledge to refute and more hunger to accept whatever they say.

Muslimls on the other hand give dawaah to their own local communities, not go to these places to "buy" converts. And Muslim's don't convert others, they job is only to convey the message of Islam. It is Allah who guides whom He so pleases. So we just give the message and even tell them to think carefully before converting to make sure this is what they want.

Like i said, BIG difference.
And you also need to provide your evidence that Christians do that, by the same token, since you've not. You've simply made an assertion that it happens based on "common knowledge" and even so, the way you've worded this post implies that it's a systemic thing amongst these individuals and that no Christian ever goes out there and helps merely out the conscience of his or her own heart.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Encolpius
And you also need to provide your evidence that Christians do that, by the same token, since you've not. You've simply made an assertion that it happens based on "common knowledge" and even so, the way you've worded this post implies that it's a systemic thing amongst these individuals and that no Christian ever goes out there and helps merely out the conscience of his or her own heart.
I have my proofs and i 'll show them when i see him show them. I say this becuase non-muslims have made a good reputation for themselves for lieing and throwing stupid statements and failing to back them up with proof; and at the same time demand proof, upon which they go mute or pick something to cry about.

One example as proof has already been given on this thread, let's see if you can find it.
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Encolpius
05-16-2007, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
I have my proofs and i 'll show them when i see him show them. I say this becuase non-muslims have made a good reputation for themselves for lieing and throwing stupid statements and failing to back them up with proof; and at the same time demand proof, upon which they go mute or pick something to cry about.

One example as proof has already been given on this thread, let's see if you can find it.
Well why not show your proof now and challenge him to do likewise from that rhetorical high ground? And also, can you show proof that it's as systematic a practice as you implied as well?
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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 06:56 PM
Here you can see all those dirty tricks that christians missionaries use in Africa-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gexFYsP33U
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Here you can see all those dirty tricks that christians missionaries use in Africa-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gexFYsP33U
i didn't ask for propaganda videos from missionaries. You made the allegations that Muslims use the same tactics, so bring proof to back that statement up.

Before you do, go back to beginning of the thread to see my post of the converts worldwide, that alone disapproves your statement.

while you're at it, maybe you can tell us how all these people converted and what tactics were used?

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vpb
05-16-2007, 07:02 PM
Here you can see all those dirty tricks that christians missionaries use in Africa-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gexFYsP33U
lol :)
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vpb
05-16-2007, 07:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYBLOxT9b-0

just in one lecture of Khalid Yasin , 22 people converted to Islam.

Allahu Akbar.
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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 08:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
i didn't ask for propaganda videos from missionaries. You made the allegations that Muslims use the same tactics, so bring proof to back that statement up.

Before you do, go back to beginning of the thread to see my post of the converts worldwide, that alone disapproves your statement.

while you're at it, maybe you can tell us how all these people converted and what tactics were used?
What can i say islamirama, for me all those people who rejected Christ as their only saviour will be judged in the last days.

Besides, here in West it's not hard to convert to islam. I can even say that reverts to islam become popular and often are shown in tv and newspapers as very brave and interesting men. Many of them become popular politicians, artists and activists, for example- Keith Ellison, Yvonne Ridley, Akon, Muhammad Ali.
And how are treated converts from islam to christianity in muslim countries? They rather dont become popstars and famous politics. They often have to hide and can't tell anybody about their conversion.They are often put in arrests for "insulting countries' tradition" just like that egyptian sheikh who become christian.
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/disp...idelement=4596

You have to consider those facts. God bless those who despite the danger have courage to accept Jesus Christ.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
What can i say islamirama, for me all those people who rejected Christ as their only saviour will be judged in the last days.

Besides, here in West it's not hard to convert to islam. I can even say that reverts to islam become popular and often are shown in tv and newspapers as very brave and interesting men. Many of them become popular politicians, artists and activists, for example- Keith Ellison, Yvonne Ridley, Akon, Muhammad Ali.
And how are treated converts from islam to christianity in muslim countries? They rather dont become popstars and famous politics. They often have to hide and can't tell anybody about their conversion.They are often put in arrests for "insulting countries' tradition" just like that egyptian sheikh who become christian.
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/disp...idelement=4596

You have to consider those facts. God bless those who despite the danger have courage to accept Jesus Christ.

what more can one say about a religion where they take a fellow man as their god?
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vpb
05-16-2007, 08:42 PM
what more can one say about a religion where they take a fellow man as their god?
subhanallah, how can they ascribe such things to God, I mean just for instance if you think , a man needs to eat, and when he eats he needs to go to...... ?? astagfirullah . how could God do that? subhanallah, Allah swt is High from the things that they prescribe him.

Sahih Bukhari , Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

What can i say islamirama, for me all those people who rejected Christ as their only saviour will be judged in the last days.
how will you be judged when the sins of people have already been paid? how can there be judgmenet where your religion is not based on 'making more good deeds' as Islam is. you just need to believe in Christ that he was killed for your sins and that's it. You are saved.
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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
what more can one say about a religion where they take a fellow man as their god?
If you think that Christ was only a man you completely dont know anything about christianity.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
If you think that Christ was only a man you completely dont know anything about christianity.
Adam qualifies more than jesus to be god since he was born without a mother or father, came directly from heaven, is the father of all humanity

oh wait a minute, now its starting to sound like pagan roman believes of zeus and herculius and all that mumbo jumbo.

well that's paul's religion for you!
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vpb
05-16-2007, 08:54 PM
Besides, here in West it's not hard to convert to islam. I can even say that reverts to islam become popular and often are shown in tv and newspapers as very brave and interesting men. Many of them become popular politicians, artists and activists, for example- Keith Ellison, Yvonne Ridley, Akon, Muhammad Ali.
And how are treated converts from islam to christianity in muslim countries? They rather dont become popstars and famous politics. They often have to hide and can't tell anybody about their conversion.They are often put in arrests for "insulting countries' tradition" just like that egyptian sheikh who become christian.
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/disp...elemen t=4596
dude, are you talking about one person? go to youtube and type muslims converts, christian converts, hindu converts or even just the word convert and the whole page is about 'to islam , to islam, ...." and these are just videos, what about thousands of people that don't record themselves. even the chance for muslims who come on christian lands to conver to christianity should be higher then christian from chrisitan land converting to islam. you trying to say "hey i have a opel, it goes as fast as ferrari" . lol i can't believe you people close your eyes and pretend that you are doing well . lolllll
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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 08:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
subhanallah, how can they ascribe such things to God, I mean just for instance if you think , a man needs to eat, and when he eats he needs to go to...... ?? astagfirullah . how could God do that? subhanallah, Allah swt is High from the things that they prescribe him.

Yes of course and Jesus Christ also got tired, sweat, was thirsty and hungry. But on the other hand He healed the people, multiply food,walked on water, raise man from dead, forgave sins, and finally He was killed and resurrected.
Because Jesus Christ simply had two natures while he was on Earth. Human and divine nature. He did the things that people do but also he did the things that only God could do. Im sure that other christians in this forum explained this better than me many times before, so you can just check what they said.


Sahih Bukhari , Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

how will you be judged when the sins of people have already been paid? how can there be judgmenet where your religion is not based on 'making more good deeds' as Islam is. you just need to believe in Christ that he was killed for your sins and that's it. You are saved.
Yes, but not all people will be saved, only those who accept Christ as their Lord and saviour. So those converts that islamirama mentioned won't be saved, because they knew the Truth and still rejected it.

It is of course what we, christians believe. You don't have to. :)

Have a nice day.
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vpb
05-16-2007, 09:00 PM
Yes, but not all people will be saved, only those who accept Christ as their Lord and saviour. So those converts that islamirama mentioned won't be saved, because they knew the Truth and still rejected it.

It is of course what we, christians believe. You don't have to.
but how come you need for a judgement day, when you believe that when the time comes good people will dissapear and bad people (who rejected Jesus pbuh) will stay on earth and be punished? if you know the answer if a criminal committed the act or not, there is no need to go through the judgement process, but simply you put the criminal in jail, so why is there a need for a judgement day when you simply have "believe in Jesus, go to heaven, not beliving him, go to hell".... open your eyes dude :)
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Yes, but not all people will be saved, only those who accept Christ as their Lord and saviour. So those converts that islamirama mentioned won't be saved, because they knew the Truth and still rejected it.

It is of course what we, christians believe. You don't have to. :)

Have a nice day.
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17 RSV 1952)

"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18)

"I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30)

"I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31 RSV)

"The words that I say to you I do not speak of my own authority." (John 14:10 RSV) "I do nothing of my own authority but speak thus as the Father has taught me." (John 8:28 RSV)

"The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 RSV)

“God raised him up.” (Acts 2:24)


Have a nice day :)

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Amadeus85
05-16-2007, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE=islamirama;739502]Adam qualifies more than jesus to be god since he was born without a mother or father, came directly from heaven, is the father of all humanity

oh wait a minute, now its starting to sound like pagan roman believes of zeus and herculius and all that mumbo jumbo.

well that's paul's religion for you![/QUOTE

You more and more confirm me that you completely dont understand Jesus' Christ life and message. But it's ok, there is hope also for people like you islamirama. For now, lets just stick with our own theories and rather get back to the topic. :)
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vpb
05-16-2007, 09:03 PM
The thing with Chrisitanity is the same old thing as the pagans at the time when Muhammed saws lived, except they you have a more complex concept which is trinity which everyone fails to explain. Pagans said that there is One God , they didn;t reject God, but they worshiped statues so through them they can get closer to God, same thing is with you , you worship God through Jesus , any difference?
have you ever thought deeply about the statement
"God has a son" ??
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borboski
05-16-2007, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Maybe things are clearer now?.. if it weren't for puppet govt. of the middle east these so-called under educated wrapped women would have had better opportunities. the same afforded all women in Islam.
Do you know that as a proportion of GDP - the US actually gives more to Palestine, than it does to Israel? E.g. not of US GDP, or Israel and Palestine. Until recently, it did anyway, don't know if it still stands. Yawn... always with the "Israel this... Israel that...".

if you want to associate poverty of Muslim women ergo corrupt govt. instilled and maintained by tyrants I have no problem with that... There are no Islamic state any where in the world to blame current climate on!

and nothing in Islam, that says... women go be uneducated objects.... in other words poverty befalls all middle eastern women just the same whether Muslims or christian for the same virtues-- and Islam has nothing to do with it! Except of course I see more Christian immigrants here from the middle east than I do Muslim ones, as they are simply granted refugee over their Muslim counterparts!
I'm very pleased that you don't think there's anything in Islam which keeps women repressed. Excellent. But lots of other people do, and if you asked them they would say - just as strongly as you - that Islam has everything to do with it. People who blow up schools in Afghanistan, for example.

But I'm sorry, I didn't enter this thread for an argument, I just offered one reason why the birth rate amongst poor Muslim communities might be high.

if you have something of substance to impart, please do, otherwise keep worthless opinions to yourself, or share it with like minds. They'll just be mocked here.
That's not very mature, is it?
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vpb
05-16-2007, 09:10 PM
I think this thread needs to be closed, bc don't think there is much else to talk about the topic else we will continue discuss something else :p
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Encolpius
05-16-2007, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Adam qualifies more than jesus to be god since he was born without a mother or father, came directly from heaven, is the father of all humanity

oh wait a minute, now its starting to sound like pagan roman believes of zeus and herculius and all that mumbo jumbo.

well that's paul's religion for you!
You more and more confirm me that you completely dont understand Jesus' Christ life and message. But it's ok, there is hope also for people like you islamirama. For now, lets just stick with our own theories and rather get back to the topic. :)
His cognizance of pre-Christian faiths is also a bit wonky as well.
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جوري
05-16-2007, 09:23 PM
Borborygmi:

format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
Do you know that as a proportion of GDP - the US actually gives more to Palestine, than it does to Israel? E.g. not of US GDP, or Israel and Palestine. Until recently, it did anyway, don't know if it still stands. Yawn... always with the "Israel this... Israel that...".
I believe it was you who brought up the shinning star of the Mediterranean up not my person? Go ahead scroll and read your cute quote ... I am not sure why you stuck it in there, if you didn't wish to discuss it? if Israel can afford to steal, it can afford to advertise, I figured that was the purpose of your quote on how well Israel is doing compared to the rest of the middle east? And no, I didn't see 90 billion plus in aid to palestine... if the Palestinians were in such good shape they wouldn't be living in refugee camps, or mass murdered in Sabra and chatila.. and else where to worry about excelling in the arts and crafts --so indeed Yawn if not first a good hearty chuckle...

format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
I'm very pleased that you don't think there's anything in Islam which keeps women repressed. Excellent. But lots of other people do, and if you asked them they would say - just as strongly as you - that Islam has everything to do with it. People who blow up schools in Afghanistan, for example.
who are the "lot of people "?. I am a Muslim woman I can speak for myself as well as other Muslim women and I happen to travel quite extensively between U.S, europe and middle east..... we didn't appoint you and yours to speak on our behalf... we are quite capable of expressing ourselves -- whatever is happening in Afghanistan you can thank your president for--
Afghanistan isn't running by Islamic law. Until you muster that subject with some dexterity I'd refrain from hurling out the first thing that comes to mind especially in the den of Muslims.. there are various blogs that not only foster your ideologies but encourage them... The rest of us know better!

format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
But I'm sorry, I didn't enter this thread for an argument, I just offered one reason why the birth rate amongst poor Muslim communities might be high.
Your opinion isn't a scientific data, or bares any hint of truth. I have already included actual articles about Muslim earnings from U.S govt project MAPS. You don't live in the middle east, to have any sort of remote understanding of socioeconomic, or geopolitical events happening to write with the slightest bit of authority on such subjects!

format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
That's not very mature, is it?
that is an excellent question to pose to your person-- and you are right.. I really don't wish to engage this subject beyond this...

peace
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by borboski
Do you know that as a proportion of GDP - the US actually gives more to Palestine, than it does to Israel? E.g. not of US GDP, or Israel and Palestine. Until recently, it did anyway, don't know if it still stands. Yawn... always with the "Israel this... Israel that...".
Financial Aid

The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel’s population comprises just .001% of the world’s population and has one the world’s higher per capita incomes.
  • Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 – making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
  • The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
  • Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
  • Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven – leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan – with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
  • In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.
Military Aid

The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel – totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.


Furthermore:
  • 18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;
  • Israel has the world’s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;
  • In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon – in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9
Charitable Aid

Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel’s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.

US aid to Israel: A violation of US law

US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that “engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights”.10

----------------------------------------

The estimate of daily U.S. aid to Israel is based on the minimal total aid to Israel during 2006 reported the Washington Report article “A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: $108 Billion,” by Shirl McArthur.
“[T]he indirect or consequential costs to the American taxpayer as a result of Washington’s blind support for Israel exceed by many times the amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel. Some of these ‘indirect or consequential’ costs would include the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the Arab oil embargo and consequent soaring oil prices as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the 1973 war, and the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria. (For a discussion of these larger costs, see ‘The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion,’ by the late Thomas R. Stauffer, June 2003 Washington Report, p. 20.)”
The United States does not provide any aid to the Palestinian government. Also, following the democratic election of a Hamas government, the United States has cut off all humanitarian aid as well.
According to USAID, “[O]n July 16, 2003, the United States, by invoking special Presidential waiver authority, for the first time ever and in recognition of important progress in the reform of Palestinian institutions, signed an agreement with the Palestinian Authority authorizing a $20 million cash transfer for the purpose of maintaining municipal water, sewage and electrical services and providing for PA directed municipal infrastructure development. In December 2004, the United States provided the PA with the second cash transfer of $20 million, which was used entirely to pay off debts to Israeli utility companies. The final $50 million cash transfer to the Palestinians was provided in August 2005 and was intended for small scale infrastructure projects in Gaza. However, as a result of the Hamas election victory in January 2006, this sum was requested back by the United States Government. All other assistance to the PA takes the form of in-kind assistance (training, technical assistance, equipment, etc.) rather than cash.”
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
I think this thread needs to be closed, bc don't think there is much else to talk about the topic else we will continue discuss something else :p
I 2nd that! :D
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