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snakelegs
05-15-2007, 09:54 PM
so many things are happening in pakistan - increasing taliban influence, nationalist/separatist demands, the sacking of the chief justice, the future of musharraf's dictatorship amidst increasing demands for democracy, the recent demonstrations/strikes, sectarian and ethnic violence, etc. etc.
i know there are a number of pakistanis here. would you share your "take" on what is happening and what you see as the likely future of pakistan, as well as what you would like to see happen in pakistan.
thanks!
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islamirama
05-15-2007, 10:14 PM
Snake legs – from myislamweb?


  • there is no taleban influence in the country, false reports. There are Islamic parties that are stepping up their demand for the country to be more Islamic and stop selling alcohol, porn videos, and shut down brothels and other stuff like that. Pakistan used to have a pretty median society, but today we have seeing a divide at two ends. There is no middle ground anymore. Lot has stepped on modern side, so much that they would put modern countries to shame. And sadly this modernization is not in good things but all the bad habits they can get from other cultures. In return, there has been a strong demand to return to the conservative side and return to the basics of islam. So you have the country now being divided into two groups, secular extremists and Islamic conservatives.

  • musaraf is a dictator who is very unpopular with the people (except secular extremists). He’s under fire by the public and judicial courts to tell whereabouts of the people that are randomly picked up by the paki intelligency agency and disappear. These people include men women and children. Musharaf as also done lot of things that merit him as an unjust ruler that needs to be taken out of power. Only thing keeping him alive so far is the US security, the number of attempted attacks on him are too many count.

  • The chief justice was well known for speaking out the truth and going against the gov’t and what it said when it was wrong. he was sacked to find a more gov’t/musraf friendly judge. Just the fact majority of lawyers and judges backing up the chief justice shows who is right here. The bombing and shooting and city shut down in recent news is because of this. The MGM (musharaf political party) came out to protest for the gov’t when there was about to be a protest for the support of chief who was going to give a speech. The MQM started shooting and incited violence, secular extremists at your best.

  • A Pakistani retired general made a prediction statement last year. He said based on the trends and what is going on, lot of Muslims in Muslim countries are going towards Islam, they have experienced modernization and now they want to get back to islam. So we will see more Muslims and Muslim countries turning Islamic, whether the tyrants in power like it or not.

  • to be continued…
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snakelegs
05-15-2007, 11:24 PM
thanks for your reply. i hope other pakistanis will add their 2 cents too.
no, i am not on that forum - someone has stolen my name!
:raging:
taliban influence is certainly spreading in the tribal areas and in frontier province. do you think that it is limited to there?
my impression is that almost nobody wants musharraf! i don't think it breaks down along religious-secular lines, do you? i know some secular types who would like to live in a democratic pakistan.
what percentage of pakistanis would you guess would like to see shariah and what percentage a secular democracy? (isn't this what jinnah wanted?)
i am assuming that you would either like a shariah gov't or a gov't that was more islamic, in any case? i don't think all secularists are secularist extemists. (like turkey)
do you think musharraf will impose martial law if these demonstrations continue?
what do you think about the nationalist/separtist demands? there is a lot of resentment against the central gov't.
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Talha777
05-16-2007, 12:14 AM
The recent violence in Karachi saw the murder of 41 people, and hundreds more injured. The cause of this agitation is the racist, terrorist MQM, which has been given free license by the Mush dictatorship to terrorize Karachi which supports the Chief Justice Chaudhry Iftikhar.

I would like to see only one thing in Pakistan, a REAL Islamic Revolution, one that will propel similar revolution throughout the Muslim world and lay the foundation for restoration of khilafat, insha Allah.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 12:41 AM
is MQM the muhajirs' party? i get confused!
do you support the MMA?
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Talha777
The recent violence in Karachi saw the murder of 41 people, and hundreds more injured. The cause of this agitation is the racist, terrorist MQM, which has been given free license by the Mush dictatorship to terrorize Karachi which supports the Chief Justice Chaudhry Iftikhar.

I would like to see only one thing in Pakistan, a REAL Islamic Revolution, one that will propel similar revolution throughout the Muslim world and lay the foundation for restoration of khilafat, insha Allah.
From a bro:

Assalaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaah wa Barakaatuh,



Look at the obvious blatant lie ! A message found taped to one of the blown off legs of the alleged suicide bomber! Why would the suicide bomber tape a message to his leg? And, how did he know that the message would not be blown to pieces and destroyed in the explosion?

The fact is, like in Iraq, there is no suicide bomber involved. The explosion is caused by a bomb easily planted in the targeted area most likely by agents of the enemies of Islaam, to cause destruction, division, turmoil and strife among Muslims.

Now tie these two facts in this article together:

1. The bomb ripped through a crowded hotel restaurant in the northwestern city of Peshawar .
2. Peshawar is the capital of North West Frontier Province , a region bordering Afghanistan where pro-Taliban and al-Qaida-linked militants are active

Doesn't this clearly reveal the intention from planting the bomb in this area? To punish the Taliban, al-Qa3idah and those supporting them and/or to assassinate important mujahideen figures who may have frequented the restaurant.

So, they kill the dead and walk in their funeral. That is, they achieve two goals with one strike (kill two birds with one stone). Kill the mujahideen and blame them for the crime at the same time, to tarnish their reputation and rouse up public sentiment against them.



أبو يوسف
Abu Yousuf
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Talha777
05-16-2007, 12:46 AM
MQM is an ethnic party as well as violent terrorist organization, it used to be known as Muhajir Qaumi Movement, but changed its name to Muttahida Qaumi Movement. The name change makes no difference, it is essentially still a Muhajir party and will never win seats outside of Sindh.

And yes, I support Muttahida Majlis e Aamal (MMA).
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 12:56 AM
are the majority of people who live in karachi sindhi or from outside sindh?
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks for your reply. i hope other pakistanis will add their 2 cents too.
no, i am not on that forum - someone has stolen my name!
:raging:
taliban influence is certainly spreading in the tribal areas and in frontier province. do you think that it is limited to there?
my impression is that almost nobody wants musharraf! i don't think it breaks down along religious-secular lines, do you? i know some secular types who would like to live in a democratic pakistan.
what percentage of pakistanis would you guess would like to see shariah and what percentage a secular democracy? (isn't this what jinnah wanted?)
i am assuming that you would either like a shariah gov't or a gov't that was more islamic, in any case? i don't think all secularists are secularist extemists. (like turkey)
do you think musharraf will impose martial law if these demonstrations continue?
what do you think about the nationalist/separtist demands? there is a lot of resentment against the central gov't.
Only place taleban influence might exist is in North Province, or wazirstan area. Then again that area always has been tribal and never has been ruled by the gov't. The gov't tried a few times but got their butt kicked bad so they just leave that area alone and let them do as they please. It is also the area with most natural resources, especially natural gas. Mushraf is abusing those people by not giving them any hellp or rights as owners/citizens of that land and yet he wants to industralize that area to support rest of the pakistan.

No body wants mushraf except a small minority of secular extremists who have wealth attained thru questionable means and who enjoy corrupt and brotherls and lewdness. They are yelling the loudest so their way or life doesn't end..



Majority of pakistanis would like to see the shariah implemented and properly too, not just half backed notion of it like the saudis have.

let's not go to turkey, they have secular extremists who worship kemal more than anything.

There's lots of non-Muslims living in saudi as expats who love it there, despite the islamic "rules" there. If expats can love being in such a place then muslims shouldn't have problem living in an islamic state. Not only will it end all the corruption from politicians to lowest cop but also the country itself needs to be cleaned at all levels physically and metaphorically speaking.

In other words, the way things are going over there. We will see a revolution like that of iran 1979 where people will have enough of all this corruption and immorality that they will oust everyone there and change the whole country for the best.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Look at the obvious blatant lie ! A message found taped to one of the blown off legs of the alleged suicide bomber! Why would the suicide bomber tape a message to his leg? And, how did he know that the message would not be blown to pieces and destroyed in the explosion?
everybody know that terrorists love to leave notes - even george bush says so, and we know he's smart! :D
btw, am not familiar with this story - just couldn't resist because it sounds familiar.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
everybody know that terrorists love to leave notes - even george bush says so, and we know he's smart! :D
btw, am not familiar with this story - just couldn't resist because it sounds familiar.
are you on an aussie forum? i know i've seen you else where before :D
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 01:15 AM
islamirama,
In other words, the way things are going over there. We will see a revolution like that of iran 1979 where people will have enough of all this corruption and immorality that they will oust everyone there and change the whole country for the best.
yes, i think practically nobody is happy with pakistan now and something has got to change - and probably soon.
then there is the "u.s. factor" - i think we would probably bomb pakistan if the pakistani people chose a shariah gov't - maybe even if they manage to throw out musharraf (never mind even shariah).
since musharraf will probably not voluntarily leave, even if 99.9% wanted him to, how far do you think he would go to hold on?
somewhere i read the opinion that the sacking of the judge was in order to create the protests and give an excuse for declaring martial law. what do you think?
any change will no doubt be fought violently by the u.s.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
islamirama,

yes, i think practically nobody is happy with pakistan now and something has got to change - and probably soon.
then there is the "u.s. factor" - i think we would probably bomb pakistan if the pakistani people chose a shariah gov't - maybe even if they manage to throw out musharraf (never mind even shariah).
since musharraf will probably not voluntarily leave, even if 99.9% wanted him to, how far do you think he would go to hold on?
somewhere i read the opinion that the sacking of the judge was in order to create the protests and give an excuse for declaring martial law. what do you think?
any change will no doubt be fought violently by the u.s.
US said they already have CIA/FBI and special ops in place in pakistan and will take over all paksitan nuclear facilities if the gov't is to collapse. They don't want any "nuclear technology/weapons" fall into "terrorists" hands.

As for Mushraf, he was given the ultimatem to either help US with its war on terror or be bombed back to stone age. And Mushraf said US would be no where without pakistan's help with this war. So some may say he tried to save pakistan by going along with the plan but many would say it was more for his personal gain as he got paid handsomely to go along, which is supported by the fact that he sold innocent pakistanis as qaeda "members" to US to support this war and show that they do have evil men hiding in pakistan.

Sacking of the judge was to put someone who isn't so critical of the gov't and who won't stop gov't from stringing anyone up in the court they want to shut them up.

The US can try all it's want to control pakistan, but if a revolution comes than no one will be save. No native who supports secularism nor any US offical in pakistan. It will be like Iran, you can't attack a whole nation of people.
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muzna
05-16-2007, 01:26 PM
assalamu alaikum

is musharraf actually that unpopular? all the pakistanis i've spoken to have cautiously refrained from making any negative statements about him..apparently the country can only be controlled by army and musharraf brought some order and calm to the place, which was lacking under previous rule.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by muzna
assalamu alaikum

is musharraf actually that unpopular? all the pakistanis i've spoken to have cautiously refrained from making any negative statements about him..apparently the country can only be controlled by army and musharraf brought some order and calm to the place, which was lacking under previous rule.

:w:

believe it or not but he is. So many attempts have been made to blow up his car and since CIA has signal jammping devices in the car, that's why he is still alive. If people that were actually liked by pakistanis like zia ul haq were killed so easily either by car bomb or plane explosion, any surprise this munafiq is still alive?

Pakistan has lately had nothing but looters and thiefs as PMs. Butto was a corrupt women who pocketed millions into her foreign account, her husband was using Pakistan's treasurey as his bank and was doing big illegal black market stuff. Nawaz sharif was no better either, he also robbed pakistan of all its money. Why else did mushraf took over in the first place? too much corrupt and robbery of Pakistan. But since he came to power, he too has been corrupted. While other's stole money only, this kuffar aided with the kuffars in selling out his own citizens as "suspects" and turned against his own muslim brothers. May Allah make his end quick and rule short lived.
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NoName55
05-16-2007, 02:21 PM
I was asked by Br. or Sr. Snakelegs to comment in this thread.

I am sorry to say that I shant do that until this thread is moderated, except to say that I am getting annoyed by this person islamirama, for he is repeatedly maligning a hero of Pakistan, who has risked his life for Pakistan a number of times. More recently he saved Pakistan from America who was prepared to bomb it back to stone age (with help of hindu india)

wasalaam alaikum
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
I was asked by Br. or Sr. Snakelegs to comment in this thread.

I am sorry to say that I shant do that until this thread is moderated, except to say that I am getting annoyed by this person islamirama, for he is repeatedly maligning a hero of Pakistan, who has risked his life for Pakistan a number of times. More recently he saved Pakistan from America who was prepared to bomb it back to stone age (with help of hindu india)

wasalaam alaikum
A hero of pakistan? what are you smoking?

He sold his own citizens to US as "suspects"

He turned his muslim brothers (taleban) to US when they trusted him to keep them safe by seeking refuge in Muslim land

His intelligene agency kidnaps citizens and you never hear from them again

He demolishes masjids claiming they are illegaly built,something All muslim scholars disagreed with

He house arrested the pakistani scientists and hero who made nuclear bomb possible. Read what that guys' sister has to say about this loser.

He attacked madrassas and said london bombers were in pakistan getting training when london's on experts said they are UK problem and product of what UK society offers (or doesn't offer) and how it treats Muslims.
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iqbal_soofi
05-16-2007, 04:11 PM
You are right, snake legs. People of Pakistan are facing very difficult times these days.
Various religious groups are trying to impose Talibanization on them from one side and the powerful and corrupt bureaucracy is imposing dictatorship on the other. When we say Talibanization, it doesn't exactly mean that they're trying to form the government of Taliban in Pakistan., but we mean to say that different small groups of religious terroists are trying to impose their own interpretations of sharia law on the people without getting their approval or consent. Similarly, Musharaf government is trying to impose its own interpretation of enlightenment on people which nothing but another propaganda trick of the dictatorship.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2007, 04:21 PM
I don't know what to say except I can't comment on Musharraf. I hear both sides of the story. So basically I am cluelessss.
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muzna
05-16-2007, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
:w:

believe it or not but he is. So many attempts have been made to blow up his car and since CIA has signal jammping devices in the car, that's why he is still alive. If people that were actually liked by pakistanis like zia ul haq were killed so easily either by car bomb or plane explosion, any surprise this munafiq is still alive?

Pakistan has lately had nothing but looters and thiefs as PMs. Butto was a corrupt women who pocketed millions into her foreign account, her husband was using Pakistan's treasurey as his bank and was doing big illegal black market stuff. Nawaz sharif was no better either, he also robbed pakistan of all its money. Why else did mushraf took over in the first place? too much corrupt and robbery of Pakistan. But since he came to power, he too has been corrupted. While other's stole money only, this kuffar aided with the kuffars in selling out his own citizens as "suspects" and turned against his own muslim brothers. May Allah make his end quick and rule short lived.
hokay...just telling you what it looks like in pakistan..but i dont know much about the politics there..so..
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 04:32 PM
“A PETITION PROTESTING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENTAL CHANGES IN EDUCATIONAL CURRICULUM IN PAKISTAN.”

On 6 May 2006,Federal Education Minister,Javed Ashraf Qazi announced that new revisions to the country’s eighteen yr old curriculum are to b presented in June 2006. the most significsnt revision is an increased emphasis on spreading the western values and beliefs amongst the next generation. US President Bush personally reviewed n approved impending reforms when he visited Pakistan in March 2006. On 5 March 2006,at a joint conference Bush declared, “And I thank you for your extensive briefing today on your plans to spread freedom throughout your country…President Musharaf briefed us on his education plans today, and they are farsighted and they are visionary.”

The Bush Admin’s high level interest in the education in Muslim countries is b/c it is extremely concerned about Muslim rejection of the occupation and colonialist domination of Muslim lands. Throughout that Muslim world, there is widespread anger against the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, the occupation by the Jewish state n India as well as the colonialist domination of Muslim lands.

In this situation America has shifted focus on Muslim education b/c it has realized the failure of using force to suppress Muslim rejection of occupation n colonialist domination. So having accepted that force against the present generation will not work, the Americans are depending on education to mould the future generation from a tender young age. And this is what Musharraf mentioned during his interview published by Daily Times on 24 May 2005,when he said, “You cannot change mindset in one generation. It will take two, three generations. And you can never do it by force.”

On 19 August 2005,the US state dept was asked to comment on criticism of guidelines for teachers to “develop aspiration for jihad” and “develop a sense of respect for the struggle of the Muslim population for achieving independence” and text books rejecting secular “man-made laws.” In response, the US state dept. spokesman, Sean McCormack, reassured his audience that,” We have engaged the Pakistani government on this issue, specially on the issue of text books and language that might-that, upon reading it, was clearly, clearly unacceptable and inciteful.”

The impending changes are to further spread Western values within the new generation, which will erode the noble values revealed by Allah swt. On 4 April 2005, Pakistan’s Education Minister announced plans to end separation of boys and girls in state schools in a hearing before National Assembly Standing Committee to Education.

This is just one measure to promote the western concept of personal freedom which encourages relationship outside of marriage and has already led to a wave of adultery, fornication, fatherless children and homosexuality in the West. And on 13 April 2006, the Education Minister confirmed that there will be a heavy emphasis on western values and culture in the new syllabus. These include idea of secularism, through which the west hopes that the Muslims would abandon that which Allah swt has revealed in favor of slavery to man- made laws.

The Kafir colonialists are spending their wealth and expending effort to ensure that your coming generations submit before them. Allah swt revealed;
“Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion. Say: Verily, the Guidance of Allah is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of knowledge(the Quran)(,then you would have against Allah neither any Wali(protector or Guardian) nor any helper.” (Surah al Baqarah 2:120)

In fact, the system in Pakistan has always ensured the success of every colonialist plan against you, whether it involved the assault on your lands, your resources and even your Deen. The system is the source of your misery and humiliation b/c it is secular, man made system which disregards the laws that Allah swt has revealed. This is why even though the faces changes from time to time, your troubles only increase in severity and number. RasulAllah saaw warned you that, “The believer is not stung from the same hole twice.”

SO ,WHY DO YOU RETURN TO THAT SYSTEM WHICH HAS STUNG YOU NOT ONLY ONCE,BUT COUNTLESS TIMES?
It is time for u to realize that the only way to rescue yourselves and your future generations from the misery n humiliation of this system, is by working to establish khilafaha its place. It will nurture your every son and daughter according to what Allah swt and His Messenger saaw said.

O you who believe! Protect yourselves and your families from the fire, whose fuel is people and stones.” (Surah at-Tahrim 66:6)



www.thepetition.com

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chacha_jalebi
05-16-2007, 04:42 PM
personally i think musharraf should go and i think that the justice guy should jus stay in one place because where ever he goes trouble follows.

and all these imams in pakistan call for ppl to protest and riot, where are these imams when the bullets r fired? where are they when innocents die?

they dont care about the country they jus want power,its a power struggle in pakistan.

i think imran khan or inzamam:D would make heavy presidents
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
personally i think musharraf should go and i think that the justice guy should jus stay in one place because where ever he goes trouble follows.

and all these imams in pakistan call for ppl to protest and riot, where are these imams when the bullets r fired? where are they when innocents die?

they dont care about the country they jus want power,its a power struggle in pakistan.

i think imran khan or inzamam:D would make heavy presidents
imran khan? the guy who married a ghori princess who left him for american celebrity?

I think we give the chief justice a shot :D
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chacha_jalebi
05-16-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
imran khan? the guy who married a ghori princess who left him for american celebrity?

I think we give the chief justice a shot :D
just because he married someone dont make him a baddy:D hes good for the country

i dont think chief justice should be leader, he should get his job back, and i think they need like a ayub khan :p or someone :D
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
just because he married someone dont make him a baddy:D hes good for the country

i dont think chief justice should be leader, he should get his job back, and i think they need like a ayub khan :p or someone :D
i don't think we need a retired sports player to run the country, it's not a job for amatures.

is ayub khan still around?

What they really need is a scholar, no molvi saab, sports player, dirty politicans, or US friendly bigots.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-16-2007, 05:22 PM
^^Yea :D As much as we all want that, it would be hard for a country thats striving for democracy not Shariah. Whatever Allah wills.
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seek.learn
05-16-2007, 05:29 PM
Salaam,
Peace

AllahuAlim

I would agree with Br. Chacha Jalebi with regards to your comment on Imran Khan. If you think he isn't going to be a good leader, then that must mean you see a flaw in his vision for the country and how he claims he can lead his country to that better place in the future. Do him justice by criticizing him for his politics or his agenda. Not who he married, and that he was a cricketer before.

As for Pakistan in general. I reserve my comments for now.

WAllahu Alim

May Allah(SWT) forgive me if I'm wrong, and guide us all on His straight path and forgive us. Aameen.

Alaikum Salaam
Peace
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iqbal_soofi
05-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
personally i think musharraf should go and i think that the justice guy should jus stay in one place because where ever he goes trouble follows.

and all these imams in pakistan call for ppl to protest and riot, where are these imams when the bullets r fired? where are they when innocents die?

they dont care about the country they jus want power,its a power struggle in pakistan.

i think imran khan or inzamam:D would make heavy presidents
Almost everybody in Pakistan has the same opinion about Musharaf. He must go.
Your statement about the chief justice is not based on evidence. He is welcomed where ever he goes. There was no trouble when he went to Hyderabad. There was no trouble when he went to Peshawar. There was no trouble when he went to Lahore. Everybody wished to see him. People were very peaceful and united. It was government which created trouble in Karachi because the popularity of the chief justice was becoming a threat to the government.
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islamirama
05-16-2007, 06:21 PM



Afghans demonstrate against Pakistan

By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer
Wed May 16, 8:58 AM ET



KABUL, Afghanistan - About 1,000 Afghans shouting "Death to Pakistan" demonstrated in front of Pakistan's embassy in Kabul Wednesday, blaming the neighboring country for some of the bloodiest border clashes in years.

Many of the demonstrators were from the eastern province of Paktia, where the fighting between Afghan and Pakistani troops killed at least 13 Afghan border guards and civilians so far this week.

The demonstrators carried banners and shouted "Death to the ISI! Death to Musharraf," a reference to Pakistan's intelligence agency and President Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

Afghan police wearing riot gear guarded the embassy in downtown Kabul. There were no reports of violence.

"We've run out of patience with Pakistan," said Sultan Uddin, 50, from the Jaji district of Paktia. "We're requesting President (Hamid) Karzai to give us weapons and remove the border police. We know how to deal with Pakistan."

Tensions have been running high between Afghanistan and Pakistan over controlling their 1,510-mile border, and stemming the flow of Taliban and al-Qaida militants who stage attacks inside Afghanistan.

Afghan officials said this week's border clashes began when Pakistani soldiers entered Afghan territory. Pakistan said Afghan soldiers started the clashes by firing on border posts.

On Monday, unidentified militants killed a U.S. soldier and a Pakistani soldier after a meeting in a Pakistani border region between officials from Pakistan, Afghanistan and the NATO peacekeeping force. The meeting was meant to cool tensions over the border fighting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070516/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan

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iqbal_soofi
05-16-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama


Afghans demonstrate against Pakistan

By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer
Wed May 16, 8:58 AM ET



KABUL, Afghanistan - About 1,000 Afghans shouting "Death to Pakistan" demonstrated in front of Pakistan's embassy in Kabul Wednesday, blaming the neighboring country for some of the bloodiest border clashes in years.

Many of the demonstrators were from the eastern province of Paktia, where the fighting between Afghan and Pakistani troops killed at least 13 Afghan border guards and civilians so far this week.

The demonstrators carried banners and shouted "Death to the ISI! Death to Musharraf," a reference to Pakistan's intelligence agency and President Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

Afghan police wearing riot gear guarded the embassy in downtown Kabul. There were no reports of violence.

"We've run out of patience with Pakistan," said Sultan Uddin, 50, from the Jaji district of Paktia. "We're requesting President (Hamid) Karzai to give us weapons and remove the border police. We know how to deal with Pakistan."

Tensions have been running high between Afghanistan and Pakistan over controlling their 1,510-mile border, and stemming the flow of Taliban and al-Qaida militants who stage attacks inside Afghanistan.

Afghan officials said this week's border clashes began when Pakistani soldiers entered Afghan territory. Pakistan said Afghan soldiers started the clashes by firing on border posts.

On Monday, unidentified militants killed a U.S. soldier and a Pakistani soldier after a meeting in a Pakistani border region between officials from Pakistan, Afghanistan and the NATO peacekeeping force. The meeting was meant to cool tensions over the border fighting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070516/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan
There're only a few Afghans who are the touts of super powers. They want to create trouble with Pakistan. They're the ones who are trying to engage Pakistan in border clashes and sending their agents inside Pakistan to create problems in the tribal areas. They're also promoting anti Pakistan websites in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants to send all the Afghan refugees back to their country but these agents don't want Afghan people to come back to their homes.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
US said they already have CIA/FBI and special ops in place in pakistan and will take over all paksitan nuclear facilities if the gov't is to collapse. They don't want any "nuclear technology/weapons" fall into "terrorists" hands.

As for Mushraf, he was given the ultimatem to either help US with its war on terror or be bombed back to stone age. And Mushraf said US would be no where without pakistan's help with this war. So some may say he tried to save pakistan by going along with the plan but many would say it was more for his personal gain as he got paid handsomely to go along, which is supported by the fact that he sold innocent pakistanis as qaeda "members" to US to support this war and show that they do have evil men hiding in pakistan.

Sacking of the judge was to put someone who isn't so critical of the gov't and who won't stop gov't from stringing anyone up in the court they want to shut them up.

The US can try all it's want to control pakistan, but if a revolution comes than no one will be save. No native who supports secularism nor any US offical in pakistan. It will be like Iran, you can't attack a whole nation of people.
it's no doubt true that u.s. probably already has CIA in pakistan. but if there was an islamic revolution, don't you think the u.s. would bomb and kill a lot of pakistanis?
what would this islamic revolution look like - who would you see as president? is the MMA free of corruption?
from what i read, i think pakistanis are tired of military rule and would like democracy and for pakistan to become a modern nation among nations and not slide further back. (this would not have to mean turning away from islam)do you think an islamic revolution could deliver?
i do get the impression that no one likes musharraf - but how much is he to blame - could he have really said NO to u.s.? what could he have done differently? u.s. does not respect sovereignty.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
You are right, snake legs. People of Pakistan are facing very difficult times these days.
Various religious groups are trying to impose Talibanization on them from one side and the powerful and corrupt bureaucracy is imposing dictatorship on the other. When we say Talibanization, it doesn't exactly mean that they're trying to form the government of Taliban in Pakistan., but we mean to say that different small groups of religious terroists are trying to impose their own interpretations of sharia law on the people without getting their approval or consent. Similarly, Musharaf government is trying to impose its own interpretation of enlightenment on people which nothing but another propaganda trick of the dictatorship.
yes, this is how i see it and the people are the losers.
in addition to all the other problems pakistan faces - the baluchis and pashtuns are angry because central gov't is taking their resources without just compensation. isn't there practically a civil war going on in baluchistan?
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aamirsaab
05-16-2007, 10:49 PM
:sl:
Before pakistan changes their government, they're gonna first need to do something about their economy.

I sincerely hope that whoever gets in power as the new leader of pakistan does some serious renewing of the laws, because presently they suck.

Ultimately though, since the economy is so bad you'll get bent cops (which is the case in pakistan) so no new law/government will make much difference if you can pay the cops of for 800 rupees. That's less than 8 pounds.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by seek.learn
Salaam,
Peace

AllahuAlim

I would agree with Br. Chacha Jalebi with regards to your comment on Imran Khan. If you think he isn't going to be a good leader, then that must mean you see a flaw in his vision for the country and how he claims he can lead his country to that better place in the future. Do him justice by criticizing him for his politics or his agenda. Not who he married, and that he was a cricketer before.

As for Pakistan in general. I reserve my comments for now.

WAllahu Alim

May Allah(SWT) forgive me if I'm wrong, and guide us all on His straight path and forgive us. Aameen.

Alaikum Salaam
Peace
imran khan seems well respected and i agree - his marriage etc and past career does not really have anything to do with his capabilities. at least he has no record of corruption. as for the chief justice as possible leader, i don't know anything about him, so can't comment. i mean in theory, a chief justice should be free of corruption....but that is theory.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
“A PETITION PROTESTING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENTAL CHANGES IN EDUCATIONAL CURRICULUM IN PAKISTAN.”

On 6 May 2006,Federal Education Minister,Javed Ashraf Qazi announced that new revisions to the country’s eighteen yr old curriculum are to b presented in June 2006. the most significsnt revision is an increased emphasis on spreading the western values and beliefs amongst the next generation. US President Bush personally reviewed n approved impending reforms when he visited Pakistan in March 2006. On 5 March 2006,at a joint conference Bush declared, “And I thank you for your extensive briefing today on your plans to spread freedom throughout your country…President Musharaf briefed us on his education plans today, and they are farsighted and they are visionary.”

The Bush Admin’s high level interest in the education in Muslim countries is b/c it is extremely concerned about Muslim rejection of the occupation and colonialist domination of Muslim lands. Throughout that Muslim world, there is widespread anger against the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, the occupation by the Jewish state n India as well as the colonialist domination of Muslim lands.

In this situation America has shifted focus on Muslim education b/c it has realized the failure of using force to suppress Muslim rejection of occupation n colonialist domination. So having accepted that force against the present generation will not work, the Americans are depending on education to mould the future generation from a tender young age. And this is what Musharraf mentioned during his interview published by Daily Times on 24 May 2005,when he said, “You cannot change mindset in one generation. It will take two, three generations. And you can never do it by force.”

On 19 August 2005,the US state dept was asked to comment on criticism of guidelines for teachers to “develop aspiration for jihad” and “develop a sense of respect for the struggle of the Muslim population for achieving independence” and text books rejecting secular “man-made laws.” In response, the US state dept. spokesman, Sean McCormack, reassured his audience that,” We have engaged the Pakistani government on this issue, specially on the issue of text books and language that might-that, upon reading it, was clearly, clearly unacceptable and inciteful.”

The impending changes are to further spread Western values within the new generation, which will erode the noble values revealed by Allah swt. On 4 April 2005, Pakistan’s Education Minister announced plans to end separation of boys and girls in state schools in a hearing before National Assembly Standing Committee to Education.

This is just one measure to promote the western concept of personal freedom which encourages relationship outside of marriage and has already led to a wave of adultery, fornication, fatherless children and homosexuality in the West. And on 13 April 2006, the Education Minister confirmed that there will be a heavy emphasis on western values and culture in the new syllabus. These include idea of secularism, through which the west hopes that the Muslims would abandon that which Allah swt has revealed in favor of slavery to man- made laws.

The Kafir colonialists are spending their wealth and expending effort to ensure that your coming generations submit before them. Allah swt revealed;
“Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion. Say: Verily, the Guidance of Allah is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of knowledge(the Quran)(,then you would have against Allah neither any Wali(protector or Guardian) nor any helper.” (Surah al Baqarah 2:120)

In fact, the system in Pakistan has always ensured the success of every colonialist plan against you, whether it involved the assault on your lands, your resources and even your Deen. The system is the source of your misery and humiliation b/c it is secular, man made system which disregards the laws that Allah swt has revealed. This is why even though the faces changes from time to time, your troubles only increase in severity and number. RasulAllah saaw warned you that, “The believer is not stung from the same hole twice.”

SO ,WHY DO YOU RETURN TO THAT SYSTEM WHICH HAS STUNG YOU NOT ONLY ONCE,BUT COUNTLESS TIMES?
It is time for u to realize that the only way to rescue yourselves and your future generations from the misery n humiliation of this system, is by working to establish khilafaha its place. It will nurture your every son and daughter according to what Allah swt and His Messenger saaw said.

O you who believe! Protect yourselves and your families from the fire, whose fuel is people and stones.” (Surah at-Tahrim 66:6)



www.thepetition.com
this is a huge problem. anything that has u.s. endorsement is naturally seen as suspect. yet aren't education and poverty (they go together) one of the largest problems facing pakistan?
is there any middle ground? is there anyway to take advantage of the u.s. without "selling out"?
from what i read (and it's impossible to know what's propaganda and what isn't), the madrassas are not equipping their students with necessary tools to compete in the "real" world, for which subjects other than just islam need to be studied. i've also heard that many do not even have a good education in islam.
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iqbal_soofi
05-16-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
yes, this is how i see it and the people are the losers.
in addition to all the other problems pakistan faces - the baluchis and pashtuns are angry because central gov't is taking their resources without just compensation. isn't there practically a civil war going on in baluchistan?
Yeah, there's some sense of deprivation in the less developed provinces. Provincial autonomy would help solve some of their problems and it would also give the people from all other provinces more power to further develop themselves. But the problem is that the foreign economic powers want to use Pakistan as a third world consumer market. They feel more comfortable with the central or federal command system and one man rule over the entire country. They make all the important decisions for Pakistan and they don't want anybody even the judiciary to challenge their writ in Pakistan. They can even break Pakistan into further pieces if the people of poorer provinces tried to start a movement for the autonomy of their provinces.
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snakelegs
05-16-2007, 11:54 PM
as long as pakistan is under the heel of the u.s., what can it do to bring about a better future? is it paralyzed? is it stuck with military dictatorship? i think there is a good chance the people will get rid of musharraf, but then what?
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iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
as long as pakistan is under the heel of the u.s., what can it do to bring about a better future? is it paralyzed? is it stuck with military dictatorship? i think there is a good chance the people will get rid of musharraf, but then what?
then another dictator. The overgrown military and civil bureaucracy would never let people get economic independence. They can do a bigger massacre, if needed, to stop the peoples movements. Learn from the example of Bangladesh. They fell into the command of the Bangali military bureaucracy after they got out of the hand of Pakistani military, although the Bangali military bureaucracy was almost non existent at the time of separation from Pakistan.
Same would happen to the remaining underdeveloped provinces of Pakistan. Their movements of provincial autonomy would be crushed with power for as long as possible. When the economic powers of the world (WB) felt that it's not possible to stop that movement, then it would be changed to a separation movement. The new countries thus formed would then again be controlled by their new civil and military bureaucracy. On the other hand if the people are successful to get provincial and district level autonomy, then they can put more pressure on the federal government for their share of resources and also can make independent economic policies to some extent. Third world countries like Pakistan may still not be able to find complete independence though.
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NobleMuslimUK
05-17-2007, 12:18 AM
:sl:
Pakistan has become a cesspool of corruption, furthermore under the dictatorship of Mshraf, now this guy is not even a muslim, so what does that tell you. Also the MQM are the real terrorists in Pakistan not the Taleban. Musharaf dances to every beat of America, since they keep his pockets sweet. The Pakistani's should have got rid of him when he decided to side with America when they illegaly invaded Afghanistan.

From an Islamic point of view the reason for the suffering and injustice in Pakistan and around the world the muslims are eduring is because our faith has become weak and we have strayed far far away from the path of Allah SWT.

May Allah SWT guide us all. Ameen.
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iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
:sl:
Pakistan has become a cesspool of corruption, furthermore under the dictatorship of Mshraf, now this guy is not even a muslim, so what does that tell you. Also the MQM are the real terrorists in Pakistan not the Taleban. Musharaf dances to every beat of America, since they keep his pockets sweet. The Pakistani's should have got rid of him when he decided to side with America when they illegaly invaded Afghanistan.

From an Islamic point of view the reason for the suffering and injustice in Pakistan and around the world the muslims are eduring is because our faith has become weak and we have strayed far far away from the path of Allah SWT.

May Allah SWT guide us all. Ameen.
All those who kills innocent people are terrorists, whether MQM or Taliban or other groups or government. People who don't want to be oppressed or dictated by these groups are killed and punished mercilessly. All of them including Taliban forcefully want to make people follow their path. People don't like to follow them because people know that the path of the terrorists and dictators is never the right path even if these groups try to prove that theirs is th path of Allah. People judge the right path only on the basis of the merits and demerits. They always like to get on to the right path even when they have to spend hundreds and thousands to get a visa to the right path. They wish to make the same kind of right paths in their own countries, but the terrorists don't let them make anything useful in Pakistan.
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NobleMuslimUK
05-17-2007, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
All those who kills innocent people are terrorists, whether MQM or Taliban or other groups or government. People who don't want to be oppressed or dictated by these groups are killed and punished mercilessly. All of them including Taliban forcefully want to make people follow their path. People don't like to follow them because people know that the path of the terrorists and dictators is never the right path even if these groups try to prove that theirs is th path of Allah. People judge the right path only on the basis of the merits and demerits. They always like to get on to the right path even when they have to spend hundreds and thousands to get a visa to the right path. They wish to make the same kind of right paths in their own countries, but the terrorists don't let them make anything useful in Pakistan.
Seems like your concerned with the worldly success, Islam liberates a person from their desires and materialism, because that is the path to true success and peace. The Taliban was trying to make people follow this path but the world is full of corrupt and selfish people who only want worldly success.
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snakelegs
05-17-2007, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Seems like your concerned with the worldly success, Islam liberates a person from their desires and materialism, because that is the path to true success and peace. The Taliban was trying to make people follow this path but the world is full of corrupt and selfish people who only want worldly success.
surely islam does not dictate that the people of pakistan must live in dire poverty and remain uneducated?
it is not the material things that enslave - it is the attachment and worship of them.
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NoName55
05-17-2007, 03:06 AM
^^ There is no reasoning with the ignorant moola types safely nesting in foreign counties Issueing fatwas, pronouncing takfeer and inciting terror in Pakistan and elsewhere
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Musalmaan
05-17-2007, 07:58 AM
:sl:


Mush and his allies have been badly disgraced by their own plans plots & tricks which went against themselves in recent days and media showed the live videos what happened in 12th may in karachi, everybody has seen the real horrible face of Mush, MQM and all their allies,
but i feel, these ppl. who have dictatorship and power but totally out of their senses can cause alot more damage to pakistan, as they have been disgraced alot and they're getting worse each passing days to cover up their lies mischievousness and imposing their own rules. i'm just puzzled what really happening these days, its an extreme fitnah !

may Allah help this nation to get out from the trouble of these trouble makers, who are praised Internationally as Peace makers.
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AmarFaisal
05-17-2007, 08:31 AM
Assalamoalaikum,

I am totally devastated by the present violence in Pakistan. it hurts me so much. Esp. my father who (though we r punjabis) has always loved n lived in Karachi. He says Karachi is the heart of Pakistan, no city in Pakistan can match it. (though Lahore isn't bad either). Anyway, recent violence has made him migrate with a borken heart to ISB.

But his heart breaks more to see, how the VIPs in ISB r treated soooo well as compared to the civilians in KHI. Even the government in LHR has built it city beautiful. Whereas KHI suffers n has always suffered. I love Khi. But unfortunately, I have seen it die at the hands of many political parties clash, esp. MQM.

Since we migrated to Khi,during gulf war, uptill now, we have seen MQM do the worst for KHI. Killing innocent ppl for voicing their disbelief in the party and lots of violence. But now it seems there r other parties with MQM too, who have decided to butcher Karachi.

Mushrraf is definetely not a hero. I used to love and have gronw up loving Pakistan army. I had reams of getting in army. But a friend of my used to tell me stories abt discrimination n corruption in the Pakistan army. Now it is all to evident. The army is ruling Pakistan.

Many ppl argue that the Amry does a lot for the country, fights its enimies, goes through hardship. n they n their famalies deserve all this VIP treatment. I don't think so. We all go through hardships in our particular fields.

I have seen the discrimination, they treat their own soilders with disrespect just becoz they r lower ranked. N not just disrespect but inhumanity.

I am going on a vacation to karachi.
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abu abdurrahman
05-17-2007, 03:50 PM
:sl:

I can't express a sincere opinion about the situation because i haven't been over there in just under two years.. and as for trusting what we read and hear in the media, then forget it.

putting theories and conspiracies about 'whodunnit' aside. Fact of the matter is that people dying like that is sad.

On Musharraf though, speaking to people in pakistan produces a mixed bag of opinions just as it does here. I was could conclude was that he's making big moves in infrastructure like roads and stuff.
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iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by abu abdurrahman
:sl:

I can't express a sincere opinion about the situation because i haven't been over there in just under two years.. and as for trusting what we read and hear in the media, then forget it.

putting theories and conspiracies about 'whodunnit' aside. Fact of the matter is that people dying like that is sad.

On Musharraf though, speaking to people in pakistan produces a mixed bag of opinions just as it does here. I was could conclude was that he's making big moves in infrastructure like roads and stuff.
The bad thing is that the government is not people friendly. People wish that supremacy of law and justice should prevail in the country. Musharraf government killed those who tried to support the justice. Anyone who doesn't respect the constitution of the country or the people of the country is the worst enemy of the country.
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islamirama
05-17-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
The bad thing is that the government is not people friendly. People wish that supremacy of law and justice should prevail in the country. Musharraf government killed those who tried to support the justice. Anyone who doesn't respect the constitution of the country or the people of the country is the worst enemy of the country.
which is why he sacked the chief, and why he sacked all military leaders and commanders that were pro taleban when he did his coup and dictatorship. He even hanged/killed soldiers that tried to kill him or go against him.
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iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
which is why he sacked the chief, and why he sacked all military leaders and commanders that were pro taleban when he did his coup and dictatorship. He even hanged/killed soldiers that tried to kill him or go against him.
I am not with those who tried to kill him. I just want him to be removed from his position of president and tried according to the law of Pakistan for violating the constitution. More time he stays in power more damage he'll to the law and order of the country. This will bring more corruption in the government departments.
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snakelegs
05-18-2007, 01:45 AM
talha,
why did you tell me you don't need my input on this thread?
it's wrong to be interested in pakistan? :confused:
i'm outa here.
:hiding:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-18-2007, 03:33 AM
^^Errr don't listen to him snake. Thats not for him to decide :) Stay and give your input! Helps get through the conversation at least. If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who started the thread! Hello! lol.

Peace
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snakelegs
05-18-2007, 06:33 AM
thanks, jazzy. i'm really more interested in what pakistanis have to say anyway.
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Scotpak
05-18-2007, 06:46 PM
Where as i love Pakistan i honestly do not see much hope for the future for a nation that was established in the name of Islam.Too many disputes and unhappy people probably means that the nation will soon be dismantled together with India which is also ripe for change!.However we shouldn't fear change if it means that the overall condition of a people will improve.Allah is the best of planners!
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iqbal_soofi
05-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Scotpak
Where as i love Pakistan i honestly do not see much hope for the future for a nation that was established in the name of Islam.Too many disputes and unhappy people probably means that the nation will soon be dismantled together with India which is also ripe for change!.However we shouldn't fear change if it means that the overall condition of a people will improve.Allah is the best of planners!
I am hopeful about Pakistan because the people of Pakistan are great. The way they came out for justice and rule of law shows that they have the necessary ingredients that make a great nation. However, the educated people a little bit misguided because of the distorted history which is taught to them. It's taught that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, which is not a fact. The fact is that Pakistan was created because the Muslims feared that they wouldn't be given enough opportunities in the united India. The founder of Pakistan Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was an active leader of the All India Congress before he led the movement for Pakistan. Initially, he didn't like the idea of a seperate country for Muslims, but when the independence of India from the British rule was eminent, he saw a visible change in the attitude of Hindu leaders who wanted to dominate the proceedings. Then he realized that Muslims would be further crushed in the united India. He was never in the favor of a country in the name of Islam because the earlier Muslim rulers of India ruled the country in the name of Islam only exploited the Muslim sentiments. Therefore, in his speech to the first parliament of Pakistan he made it clear that religion will have no part in the affairs of the government.
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aadil77
05-19-2007, 10:21 PM
there is no taleban influence in the country, false reports. There are Islamic parties that are stepping up their demand for the country to be more Islamic and stop selling alcohol, porn videos, and shut down brothels and other stuff like that.
:omg: Astagfirullah, I didn't know such things were possible in pakistan, I go there every 1 or 2 years I've never witnessed anything like that there before, but I've seen how the way people dress is getting worse and worse, I've seen seen and heard about gay people, the country is westernizing too much, I wish someone could control this
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islamirama
05-19-2007, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
:omg: Astagfirullah, I didn't know such things were possible in pakistan, I go there every 1 or 2 years I've never witnessed anything like that there before, but I've seen how the way people dress is getting worse and worse, I've seen seen and heard about gay people, the country is westernizing too much, I wish someone could control this
Politicans go to brotherls all the time, the brotherl queens keep fresh girls for the politicans to keep them happy. Girls are often kidnapped from various part of the country and forced into this. The Lal Masjid that is often in the news is demanding the shut down of all of this. They have 2 madrassas, one for guys and one for girls with around 5thousand students. The girl madrassa just recently attacked a porn store and burned all the videos in there and shut that place down.they also shut a brotherl down and kidnapped and took hostage the women and her daughters that refused to shut it down. So you got good and bad groups standing out very well these days.

As for gayism, well that has been around for quite some time. In pakistan, back in 1995 i was reading an article written by a woman on this issue. on how most men are gay then become bi or monogamous till they have kids and wife not interested anymore then they go back to gay again, and the older men are quite popular pick for the youngesters. Just last year, a man married a boy in took him as his "bride" in a village there. Shortly after we saw that earthquake in that area.

All of these are signs of the Hour, which is very very near considering how many signs have come true already.
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NoName55
05-20-2007, 12:35 AM
How disgusting! It is such a shame that unsubstanciated allegations against Muslims are being posted by so-called muslims! :(

I could understand were it on a hindutwa or sikh forum but here ....
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iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Politicans go to brotherls all the time, the brotherl queens keep fresh girls for the politicans to keep them happy. Girls are often kidnapped from various part of the country and forced into this. The Lal Masjid that is often in the news is demanding the shut down of all of this. They have 2 madrassas, one for guys and one for girls with around 5thousand students. The girl madrassa just recently attacked a porn store and burned all the videos in there and shut that place down.they also shut a brotherl down and kidnapped and took hostage the women and her daughters that refused to shut it down. So you got good and bad groups standing out very well these days.

As for gayism, well that has been around for quite some time. In pakistan, back in 1995 i was reading an article written by a woman on this issue. on how most men are gay then become bi or monogamous till they have kids and wife not interested anymore then they go back to gay again, and the older men are quite popular pick for the youngesters. Just last year, a man married a boy in took him as his "bride" in a village there. Shortly after we saw that earthquake in that area.

All of these are signs of the Hour, which is very very near considering how many signs have come true already.
Because of the illegal rule in the country, the corruption and lawlessness is on the rise. In these circumstances, some religious and other pressure groups get an opportunity to take law into their hands. This is making the situation of law and order even worse.
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Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:04 AM




Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by snakelegs
.....i know there are a number of pakistanis here. would you share your "take" on what is happening and what you see as the likely future of pakistan, as well as what you would like to see happen in pakistan.
thanks!

may i add 1 more subject here ?

I m writing this with this hope that Pakistanis participants know about role of Pak Army in 1971 ---the massacre/gonecide Pak Army did in 1971 in then East Pakistan ( now Bangladesh ). In short , Pak Army refused to accept the Election result & did not handed power to the elected leader .


As a Muslim , i think , Pakistan should apologise to Bangladeshi Muslims for the mass killing & mass rape their soldeirs did during the 9 months war. Not only they killed thousands of Hindus , they freely killed little kids , unarmed Muslims civilians also.

Few Imams gave fatwa that women are considered as booty ( wealth soldiers got from war ). So , thousands of women were raped.


Fortunately , few Pak civlians are now asking their Govt . to aplologise for the killing & mass rape. I remember 1 name now...... Sis Asma . Few Army personnel also admitted that they did wrong in 1971.



So , i want to know , not only as a citizen of Pakistan but as a Muslim , do u think , Pak Muslims should come forward , ask forgiveness & do try to compensate the family members of the murdered & raped women in Bangladesh ?

may i add i more thing. There are many Pak people ( they are called Bihari ) stranded in Bangladesh . Pak Govt . refused to take them back home & Bangladesh Govt refused to give them citizenship....now thousands of Muslims belong to nowhere.

What to do about them ? Nobody seems bother to think or do anything to bring back them home. Now new gereration of bihari people don't understand ....should they called themselves Pakistani or Bangladeshi ?



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islamirama
05-20-2007, 01:05 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
How disgusting! It is such a shame that unsubstanciated allegations against Muslims are being posted by so-called muslims! :(

I could understand were it on a hindutwa or sikh forum but here ....
If you are refering to my post then i suggest you go do your own research. Better yet, go visit pakistan yourself and see with your eyes.

Of course the article of gayism is over 10yrs old so the trends may have shifted more towards fornication since the youths are more "modern" and open to the ideo of zina.
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NoName55
05-20-2007, 01:06 AM
m writing this with this hope that Pakistanis participants know about role of Pak Army in 1971 ---the massacre/gonecide Pak Army did in 1971 in then East Pakistan ( now Bangladesh ). In short , Pak Army refused to accept the Election result & did not handed power to the elected leader .


As a Muslim , i think , Pakistan should apologise to Bangladeshi Muslims for the mass killing & mass rape their soldeirs did during the 9 months war. Not only they killed thousands of Hindus , they freely killed little kids , unarmed Muslims civilians also.
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!

and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends

get the facts straight, it was bhuto a wannabe ruler who did not want pakistan to be ruled by bengali east Pakistani (who had won the overall majority in elections) when the said politician tried to usurp power bengalis went on a rampage of destroying their own country's property (as is norm with these unthinking "muslim" masses) army was sent in, who tried to crush the rebellion by brutal force without realising that they were being surrounded by hindu forces from elsewhere. we had no suply lines open, no ammo, no transport, no food, on verge of collapsing from hunger, Men (bengalis) from our own ranks sabotaging, some of our own pilots (bengalis) along with hindus bombarding us from air, so we sleep walked into a surrender (even before the official one) into torture and starvation camps run jointly by india and mukti bahni scum.

where do you get of blaming our heroes for deeds of our traiters like bhuto and mujib families?
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Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:13 AM




Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by NoName55
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!

and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends
if u r talking to me , then pl . explain what do u mean i m selling u to my hindu friends ? If Muslims did wrong to Hindus , we must try to correct it . Cover up faults does not mean we are innocnet to God or on the last day , we won't get any punishment .

The last Prophet (p) said , ( not the exact words ) if any Muslim commits any injustice to any non-Muslim , i will be on non-Muslim's side .


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islamirama
05-20-2007, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Bengladesh was part of Pakistan, known as East Paksitan. But they were swayed and convinced by India to make their own country and leave pakistan. India was afraid of having Muslims on both side and so they decided to divide them into two nations so its easier to deal with just one at time of war. India promised all this aid and co-working and what not, but when bengladesh separated into a nation, they were left on their own by india and abandoned since India got what they wanted.

Today bengalis have extreme hatred of Pakistanis, blind and ignorant of what India had done to them, turn Muslims against muslims, a nation on its own and divided into two. Some times i wonder they are being punished by Allah for their treachery. That is the most corrupt and poor nation over there. And just last year their Democrarcy collapsed as reported on BBC. They need to stop hating pakistan and blaming it for all their problems and start taking responsibility for their actions and start working hard if they want to get anywhere as nation.

As for the war, many bad things happen at war time. Such is a nature of the war, the enemy is never looked at as human. I"m sure there have been wrong done on many sides over here. But I think hard evidence and proof must be provided to the allegations made against the a pakistan army (which I think will not be hard to do), and then they can sort it out as they wish. Its just like japanese is going thru out now with being demanded to apologize for forcing indonesian (and/or other country) women into brotherls for theiry army.

Lastly, it will be very difficult to find who did what to whom. If all the evidence can be gathered then perhaps the pakistan gov't can issue apology and perhaps compensation of what is required by Islamic law to those the injustice was done against.

As for the middle group that neither gov't takes back. They can move to india or move out of there to some other country. We all live in foriegn lands and still manage to do alright. They can still live in Bengladesh if they want like foriegners, without citizenship, and still make a decent life. Like i said, these people need to stop blaming others for their problems and get up and do something about it.
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iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!

and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends
I think you forgot the history very soon. It was not the politicians who refused to accept the election results. It was the military government who refused to accept the election results. The politicians were demanding General Yahya Khan to call the session of the Parliament. General wanted them to announce him their president before he called the session. The politicians refused to make him the president and they were right because they could not announce him the president before officially taking oath as the members of the parliament. Also the nation didn't vote them for making a general a president. It was the refusal of the military government to call the session of the elected parliament which pushed the Bengalis to start the movement of separation.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:23 AM




Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by NoName55

where do you get of blaming our heroes for deeds of our traiters like bhuto and mujib families?

for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .

Try to collect info from neutral sources .....from non-Muslims sources about the role of Pak Army in 1971....hopefully u will understand how many un-Islamic acts they committed.

Firstly ; why they rufused to handed the power to the elected person ?

secondly:They killed thousands if not millions civilians . Mass rape is not allowed in Islam .....the soldiers did it freely.....i can understand , pak people were not informed at that time about the truth but now , pl. stop supporting the role of Army / Pak Govt.




Reply

NoName55
05-20-2007, 01:32 AM
for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .
I am from an army family, almost every man has served since before 47, we took part in almost every skimish, campaign and war imposed on Pakistan including 71. I have dead and disabled relatives and friends from 71 to remind me of the treachery of those "muslims"
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:37 AM




Salaam/peace ,


[QUOTE=islamirama;742233]
Bengladesh was part of Pakistan, known as East Paksitan. But they were swayed and convinced by India to make their own country and leave pakistan.
ohhhh, Indian told Pak leaders to declare that only Urdu will be the state language ??? Conflict began long ago before 1971.........it started with language first ....so far i remember the history now.

When cyclone hit east -Pak & thousands died , no Pak leader visited them as if it's not a part of their country .....so many injustise took place since decades .......why u think , Muslims are so ignorant that if Indian Hindus tell them to start a war & they will start doint it ?

Pl. pl. do a google search & write March 25 , 1971 , Bangladesh . I m sure , u will get enough info to see what Army did there. After midnight , they massacred the civilians.




Today bengalis have extreme hatred of Pakistanis,

if u watch cricket match between Pak vs India in any venue of Bangladesh , u will be surprised to see that how so many Bangladeshi people are supporting their Pak brothers.

They ( except those who were sufferer ) forgave them already because they believe it was a mistake of Pak Army & Muslims must not hate other Muslims & they should support their Muslim brothers .




Such is a nature of the war, the enemy is never looked at as human.
--in Islam , there are do's & don'ts always----- even in wartime . Pl. learn about ethics of war in Islam.



Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman




Salaam/peace ,





for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .

Try to collect info from neutral sources .....from non-Muslims sources about the role of Pak Army in 1971....hopefully u will understand how many un-Islamic acts they committed.

Firstly ; why they rufused to handed the power to the elected person ?

secondly:They killed thousands if not millions civilians . Mass rape is not allowed in Islam .....the soldiers did it freely.....i can understand , pak people were not informed at that time about the truth but now , pl. stop supporting the role of Army / Pak Govt.



We need not forget that we're Pakistanis. It's our duty to ask from the army why they did all that which army was not supposed to do. It's the nation who pays the army, not the vice versa. The nation elected their representatives and it was a disgrace to the whole nation, not just the Bengalis that the elected representatives were not allowed to form the government. Bengali women are our sisters, not only because they're Muslims but they were Pak citizens at that time. The disgraceful generals ordered the army men to rape their own sisters. We as Pakistanis are ashamed of this disgraceful act.
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NoName55
05-20-2007, 01:43 AM
Lies, Lies and more lies!
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:45 AM




Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by NoName55
I am from an army family, almost every man has served since before 47, we took part in almost every skimish, campaign and war imposed on Pakistan including 71. I have dead and disabled relatives and friends from 71 to remind me of the treachery of those "muslims"

Alhamdulillah that i got a chance to talk to a pak citizen who know those involved in 71 war. I was thinking of contacting to any of them .....but did not know how to do it.

when u will calm down & will think about the war on the Islamic point of view ----not a citizen of Pakistan & not on political ground , then pl ask ur friends about the killing & mass rape.

Ok, for the sake of debate , if it's true that war started for treachery of Bangladeshi Muslims , what was the punishment for that ? Mass killing & mass rape ????


Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
if u watch cricket match between Pak vs India in any venue of Bangladesh , u will be surprised to see that how so many Bangladeshi people are supporting their Pak brothers.
I still remember the 1992 world cup in which Pakistan was the champion. Big celebrations took place all over Bangladesh. Eight people were killed when a bridge buckled under the huge crowd in Dhaka.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 01:54 AM




Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
..Bengali women are our sisters, not only because they're Muslims but they were Pak citizens at that time. The disgraceful generals ordered the army men to rape their own sisters..

exactly.....what Americans soldiers are now doing in Iraq , Pak Army did that in Bangladesh. What a shameful act. As a Muslim , my heart bleeds when i think of mass rape committed by our Muslim brothers.....unbelievable.




We as Pakistanis are ashamed of this disgraceful act.
---i think , it's not enough to be just ashamed . I request all Pakistani participants to do ur best to compensate those who suffered because of ur Army / Govt.


I m not asking u to pay personally ...but write in ur daily paper ( if u live in Pakistan ) ; ask those soldiers who are still alive to send at least a part from thier zakat to the raped women / needy shaheed family in Bangladesh.


Bro NoName55 , pl . try to overcome ur emotions.....i have no intention to lie against Pak Muslim.....how i will be benefitted from that lie ?

Read the history of 1971 war ....forget the text books u read when u were young , now try to collect real info from nuetral sources . And try to decide as a Muslim not as a Pak citizen .....must u do something about it ?

Ask those who took part in 1971 .....did they commit any sin .....murdering innconent civilians or killed hindus just because they were hindus & not armed freedom fighters , they raped any Muslim sisters ( if we want to forget about hindu women ) ? etc , etc.

I m asking u & other as a Muslim .
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iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman




Salaam/peace ,




Alhamdulillah that i got a chance to talk to a pak citizen who know those involved in 71 war. I was thinking of contacting to any of them .....but did not know how to do it.

when u will calm down & will think about the war on the Islamic point of view ----not a citizen of Pakistan & not on political ground , then pl ask ur friends about the killing & mass rape.

Ok, for the sake of debate , if it's true that war started for treachery of Bangladeshi Muslims , what was the punishment for that ? Mass killing & mass rape ????

It's not only the Islamic ethics but any army's ethics that such mean things are not done. Moreover, why an army should declare war on its own people. It's the people who feed the army. Even a dong doesn't attack some one who feeds it. Unfortunately, the media was not free in 1971. The government controlled media was giving a lot of disinformation to the people of west Pakistan. Therefore, the people of west Pakistan also started thinking that Bengalis were enemies of Pakistan. Now it's a different story. Army is trying to play the same kind of game in Pakistan these days. Thanks to the free media. The general would not be allowed to repeat the same game here. He has to go. The role of army has to change now. I am very confidant that politicians would be successful in keeping the army to its constitutional role.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman






---i think , it's not enough to be just ashamed . I request all Pakistani participants to do ur best to compensate those who suffered because of ur Army / Govt.


I m not asking u to pay personally ...but write in ur daily paper ( if u live in Pakistan ) ; ask those soldiers who are still alive to send at least a part from thier zakat to the raped women / needy shaheed family in Bangladesh.


Some Pakistani authors have written books on what Pak army did in East Pakistan. A book "MARSHAL LAW KA SIASI ANDAAZ" written by Rao Abdul Rashid (retied I.G. Police who was posted in East Pakistan at the time of military action) has a lot of eye opening facts. This is a worth reading book for every Pakistani who wants to know what happened in East Pakistan in 1971.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-20-2007, 02:14 AM
:sl:

Some posts are having a tinge of nationalism in them, so as a reminder please remember that nationalism has no place in Islam, so keeping that in mind, please have a peaceful decision. Allaah says:
"O mankind! We have created you from male and female and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Indeed the most noblest of you with Allaah is the one who has the most taqwaa."
Surah al-Hujuraat 49:13
"Indeed there is no excellence for an arab over a non-arab, nor a non-arab over an arab, nor a white person over a black one, nor a black person over a white one, except through taqwaa"
Saheeh: Related by Ahmad (5/411) and it was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-lqtidaa (p.69).

at-Tirmidhee relates from Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam that he said:
"Let people stop boasting about their forefathers who have died, who are merely fuel for the Hell Fire; or they will certainly be more insignificant with Allaah than the beetle which roles dung with its nose. Allaah has removed from you the party spirit of the days of jaahiliyyah and the boasting about one's forefathers. Indeed a person is either a pious Believer or a wretched sinner. All of mankind are the children of Aadaam, and Aadam was created from clay."
Hasan: Related by Abu Daawood (no.5116) and at-Tirmidhee (no.4233) from Abu Hurayrah radiallaabu anhu. It was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-lqtidaa (p.35).
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
:sl:

Some posts are having a tinge of nationalism in them, so as a reminder please remember that nationalism has no place in Islam, so keeping that in mind, please have a peaceful decision.
Pakistan is my country and Islam is my religion. One is my home the other is my way of life. There's no conflict between the two. I don't need to give up one for the sake of the other.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 09:36 AM




Salaam/peace ,


Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Pakistan is my country and Islam is my religion. One is my home the other is my way of life. There's no conflict between the two. I don't need to give up one for the sake of the other.
if indeed we have to choose between Islam & country , then surely religion will get priority .

Islam does not allow us to commit / support a sin just because my Govt wants to do it / my country is doing this sin. I m not Islamic scholar but i m 100 % sure that Islam does not say that u will become deaf & dumb & blind if u see ur ruler is doing a sin.


The 1st Caliph told his people ( not the exact words ) , support me as long as i m following Islam , disobey me if i give u wrong orders.

Do u know , minimum 50 Pak poet & writers came under prison because they protested against the atorisity of Pak Army ? One of them was Ahmed Selim. U may contact with him if possible.



So , pl. pl. pl. my dear Pak Muslim brothers & sisters , try to find out what happened in 1971 . Do ur best to make conscious ur fellow citizens about the sin Pak Army committed . Ur media/ Govt did not allow u to know at that time about genoside . Now , u can know & ignorance won't be a good excuse on the Last Day.



So many Bangladeshi Muslims already forgave Pakistani Muslims though they ( Pak people on general ) did not show any repentance .

Bangladeshi Muslims did it because they don't want to hate Muslim brothers & sisters of Pakistan for crime of their soldiers / mistake of their Govt.


But , family members of the murdered innocent civilians & the raped victims who are still alive , they do deserve the apology & compensation.


Those who live in Pakistan , pl. at least write one letter in ur local daily addressing to those Pak soldiers who committed goneside in 1971. At least ask them , what they are thinking now about the past ....do they still believe they did the right thing ? If not , must not they do something about their sin ?

Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 09:43 AM




Salaam/peace ,

Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
Some Pakistani authors have written books on what Pak army did in East Pakistan. A book "MARSHAL LAW KA SIASI ANDAAZ" written by Rao Abdul Rashid (retied I.G. Police who was posted in East Pakistan at the time of military action) has a lot of eye opening facts. This is a worth reading book for every Pakistani who wants to know what happened in East Pakistan in 1971.

English translation available online ?

Reply

aadil77
05-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Shortly after we saw that earthquake in that area.
yh I heard about that, i wasn't sure if this was true
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman




Salaam/peace ,




if indeed we have to choose between Islam & country , then surely religion will get priority .

Islam does not allow us to commit / support a sin just because my Govt wants to do it / my country is doing this sin. I m not Islamic scholar but i m 100 % sure that Islam does not say that u will become deaf & dumb & blind if u see ur ruler is doing a sin.


The 1st Caliph told his people ( not the exact words ) , support me as long as i m following Islam , disobey me if i give u wrong orders.

Do u know , minimum 50 Pak poet & writers came under prison because they protested against the atorisity of Pak Army ? One of them was Ahmed Selim. U may contact with him if possible.



So , pl. pl. pl. my dear Pak Muslim brothers & sisters , try to find out what happened in 1971 . Do ur best to make conscious ur fellow citizens about the sin Pak Army committed . Ur media/ Govt did not allow u to know at that time about genoside . Now , u can know & ignorance won't be a good excuse on the Last Day.



So many Bangladeshi Muslims already forgave Pakistani Muslims though they ( Pak people on general ) did not show any repentance .

Bangladeshi Muslims did it because they don't want to hate Muslim brothers & sisters of Pakistan for crime of their soldiers / mistake of their Govt.


But , family members of the murdered innocent civilians & the raped victims who are still alive , they do deserve the apology & compensation.


Those who live in Pakistan , pl. at least write one letter in ur local daily addressing to those Pak soldiers who committed goneside in 1971. At least ask them , what they are thinking now about the past ....do they still believe they did the right thing ? If not , must not they do something about their sin ?
Well people generally don't loose their faith. They also don't want to loose their homes. Both are important. However, there're a plenty of terrorists in Pakistan working on this evil job these days. They want the people to forget about their country for the sake of Islam. They're in fact abusing Islam for some vested interests. Islam doesn't permit extremism. You can build a decent home or country with Islam. If somebody tells you that you've to destroy your home for the sake of Islam, then he's only misguiding you. Never listen to such people and never forward this kind of propositions to others on the forums, please.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-20-2007, 04:44 PM




Salaam/peace ,
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi
... They want the people to forget about their country for the sake of Islam. .
I don't know what u r talking about. I m not asking Pakistanis to destroy their country or do any negative thing.


Pak Army massacred their own citizen , soldiers gang raped Muslim sisters in Bangladesh . If they aplogies for their sins , it will increase their image , it will help to build a good relationship between 2 Muslim nations.

Moreover , Allah will surely love those who truely repent not only by saying that ok , i m sorry / well , ok , i guess , we committed a sin etc but do their best to compensate the oppressed people/victims.



never forward this kind of propositions to others on the forums, please.[/
if u explain ur comment , then i can answer to this.

Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman




Salaam/peace ,


I don't know what u r talking about. I m not asking Pakistanis to destroy their country or do any negative thing.


Pak Army massacred their own citizen , soldiers gang raped Muslim sisters in Bangladesh . If they aplogies for their sins , it will increase their image , it will help to build a good relationship between 2 Muslim nations.

Moreover , Allah will surely love those who truely repent not only by saying that ok , i m sorry / well , ok , i guess , we committed a sin etc but do their best to compensate the oppressed people/victims.




You know the army generals are very arrogant and have no political wisdom. We shouldn't expect them to repent on their blunders. They've already shifted the blame on outside powers, politicians and the people. They always think that they're very smart. Unfortunately, we've no choice but to give the command of the gun in their hands. It's not only in Pakistan that they've invaded the political corridors, but in Bangladesh where there was almost no generals before 1971 people are facing the same kind of arrogance of their generals who are playing the same kind of games as their Pakistani counter parts.

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

if u explain ur comment , then i can answer to this.
I've repeatedly said that Islam and country are two different things and both have their importance in the life a Muslim. There's no confrontation or conflict in the two. With Islam the Muslims can make their countries better than others. If you are told to loose your country for the sake of Islam, then it's a misguidance. It's this misguided propaganda which I request you not to forward to others.
Reply

abu abdurrahman
05-20-2007, 05:02 PM
The problems span from the root to the shoot.

I get upset talking about this stuff, hurts to see your own people in that sort of condition.

May Allah guide our leaders and the awaam, to righteousness and that which pleases Him. Ameen
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-20-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by abu abdurrahman
The problems span from the root to the shoot.

I get upset talking about this stuff, hurts to see your own people in that sort of condition.

May Allah guide our leaders and the awaam, to righteousness and that which pleases Him. Ameen
The recent incidents in Pakistan make me very hopeful of the awam. They showed how badly they want a good leadership. Their support to Bar and Bench for the cause of the supremacy of law and constitution would make Pakistan a democratic country in the real sense of the word.
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-21-2007, 03:15 AM




Salaam/peace ,

. With Islam the Muslims can make their countries better than others.

--sure. But if leaders are wrong , people must not be misguided.

Pak soldiers are responsible for mass killing & mass rape in Bangladesh. I failed to understand why it's not right to ask them to show their repentance ( if they are repented at all ) & pay the victims .

They can at least pay zakat once in their life time as a token to one rape victim / murdered family.


I guess , those criminal soldiers are now 60 + . Only Allah knows , how long they will live. So , the soon they understand that they committed war crimes against their fellow Muslim brothers & sisters & do something about it , surely it will be better for their life hereafter.




If you are told to loose your country for the sake of Islam, then it's a misguidance.

But I m not asking Pak people to leave /loose or destroy their country. I m asking to repent & compensate the victims .



If Pak people do that , Insha Allah , they will be benefitted on the Last Day. If we can't stop the oppressor , at least we must not support them just because they are my country men / leaders.



In the year 1971 , few Pak citizens very bravely protested against their Govt . decision ....may Allah reward them. Now , it's time for other Pak people not to sit idle anymore & do something.


Avoid the issue is not the solution.

It's this misguided propaganda which I request you not to forward to others.
u have to explain more ....i again failed to understand ur point :(


for All : If u want to know about war ethics in Islam.


"Ordainments, Rules, and Lessons of War in Quran" & other holy Books

http://theislampath.com/smf/index.php?topic=455.0

Pl. let me know if anybody wants to know about the short history of 1971 war.

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islamirama
05-21-2007, 03:33 AM
hip-hip, horay for Lal masjid!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6673461.stm
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Are you happy because they kidnapped the policemen? Or are you happy they released two, or that they still have two? Now are they only half the criminals they use to be?
Reply

islamirama
05-21-2007, 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Are you happy because they kidnapped the policemen? Or are you happy they released two, or that they still have two? Now are they only half the criminals they use to be?
Everybody knows the gov't is corrupt and especially the Intelligence agency that randomly arrests people who are never heard of again. They took 11 students. The institution had every right to defend their students. You won't understand because you grew up in a system where any such defiance to the gov't authority means hard hand clamp on you and dire consequences. This is the democracy and true justice in these lands, where the people have enough power to take justice if its not given to them. btw, are you here to stir trouble?
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wilberhum
05-21-2007, 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Everybody knows the gov't is corrupt and especially the Intelligence agency that randomly arrests people who are never heard of again. They took 11 students. The institution had every right to defend their students. You won't understand because you grew up in a system where any such defiance to the gov't authority means hard hand clamp on you and dire consequences. This is the democracy and true justice in these lands, where the people have enough power to take justice if its not given to them. btw, are you here to stir trouble?
So that justifies kidnapping? I guess you have to be there.
btw: No, just standing up for equality and reality.
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NoName55
05-21-2007, 05:16 AM
As I have said before that I f I were in government I will have martial Law declared in current circumstances and issue orders to shoot rioters and kidnapers on sight that will soon send these terrorists to their paradise and 72 virgins. It will be like days when India and Iran tried to seperate Baluchistan from us after you shoot a few hundred the rest will soon fall back into line
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iwuvaziaf
05-21-2007, 11:57 PM
DIL DIL PAKISTAN! JAAN JAAN PAKISTAN

since this is a general chat.. can we please have some peace.. aman?

come on peeps.. whats with the aggro!
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iqbal_soofi
05-22-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by iwuvaziaf
DIL DIL PAKISTAN! JAAN JAAN PAKISTAN

since this is a general chat.. can we please have some peace.. aman?

come on peeps.. whats with the aggro!
Sure. We can have peace and some fun too.

The war is already over. Let's pray that there's no more civil war in the country. The dictators still want to do the blood shed because they feel that they're going to be over thrown by the public. Let's find out ways and means to get rid of em peacefully.
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iwuvaziaf
05-22-2007, 07:43 PM
can we talk about peshawar now?!?! yeah man! nwfp rocks! calm and collective people.. the less polluted city of pakistan and close ally to afghanistan ;)

brap brap!!!

well sed islamirama bruv.. imposters please stand up .. yes yes!

masalama
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iqbal_soofi
05-22-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by iwuvaziaf
can we talk about peshawar now?!?! yeah man! nwfp rocks! calm and collective people.. the less polluted city of pakistan and close ally to afghanistan ;)

brap brap!!!

well sed islamirama bruv.. imposters please stand up .. yes yes!

masalama
Why they named it Qisa Khawani Bazaar in Peshwar?
Reply

Muezzin
05-23-2007, 08:52 AM
The thread starter was asking about current events in Pakistan rather than historical events. By all means start a new thread about the latter, but this thread is about Pakistan's present and future rather than its past.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-23-2007, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
The thread starter was asking about current events in Pakistan rather than historical events. By all means start a new thread about the latter, but this thread is about Pakistan's present and future rather than its past.
The present and future of Pakistan is not any different from its past. The same kind of incidents keep repeating. The military dictators got the same kind of training and same mental aptitude. Therefore, by studying the past events especially those made the dictators one can easily find a lot of similarities in the present. Since the military is very strong in Pakistan, therefore the future is not going to change much in Pakistan. Due to the arrogant attitude of the dictators, the similar kind of incidents would keep repeating.
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snakelegs
07-04-2007, 08:37 AM
i am waking up this thread from its deep slumber because this is news. i haven't heard much about the lal masjid situation for awhile.
[the new york times also has an article on the subject, but i'm not sure if you can get it if you are not a subscriber. the link for that is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/wo...erland&emc=rss


Troops seal off Pakistani mosque after 11 killed

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/New...a-283088-4.xml
just the first few paragraphs.


By Augustine Anthony

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistani troops sealed off the area around a mosque in the capital and imposed a 24-hour curfew on Wednesday after 11 people were killed in clashes between security forces and militant Islamic students.

Violence erupted on Tuesday after a months-long stand-off between a Taliban-style movement headquartered at Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, less than a couple of kilometres from parliament and a protected enclave for foreign embassies.

As the gunfire died down overnight, soldiers moved 12 armoured personnel carriers, mounted with machineguns, into the area shortly before dawn.

Power was cut off in the neighbourhood, barbed wire was placed on surrounding streets, and journalists were expelled from the area.

Deputy Interior Minister Zafar Warraich told a news conference that no action would be taken against students who lay down their weapons and surrender, but anyone who tried to fight would be shot.

"A bullet will be responded with by a bullet," he said.

The Interior Ministry said nine people had been killed, but Islamabad hospital officials later said the toll was 11. About 150 people were taken to hospital, 30 with bullet wounds, others suffering from the effects of tear gas.
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Musalmaan
07-04-2007, 08:39 AM
jis baat ka darr tha wohi hua ... Allah khair kurrey. things getting worse day by day. both sides are wrong in their way (government as well as lal masjid walay).
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snakelegs
07-04-2007, 08:47 AM
here is yet another article on the subject.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IG04Df03.html
Reply

AmarFaisal
07-04-2007, 09:19 AM
Salamoalaikum,

My mother's in Isb currently. I called her up today to ask if there r any problems around her area. But she told me that it's peaceful where she is. In short it's happening mostly around the G6 area of Laal Masjid. Geo Tv is showing a lot of the news in detail as well.

The government has given them a short notice to leave the mosque. This time will end aprox. 15-20 min from now.

INshallah Khair
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jannat
07-04-2007, 10:13 AM
:sl:

thanks for posting this, i was confused abt the situation. i thought mushraf was a good president.a guess i was wrong. Indeed the situation is bad and i hope allah tala can bring peace in pakistan inshallah. its full of problems at the moment- this situation alongside the flooding. pakistan definitely needs to change, the way democracy works in pakistan needs to be rethinked. i am no lawyer and i know its easier said than done, but a big change needs to be made. i am impressed with the wealth knowledge u all have, as i dont have much even though i was born there, maybe we all on this forum should team up and change paksitan ourselves, what do u all reckon? up for it?:D , because at the moment no one is prepared to do so....

Rab Raka....

:w:
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snakelegs
07-05-2007, 03:04 AM
latest i have on lal masjid:

Hundreds of Pakistani militants surrender
STEPHEN GRAHAM

Associated Press

July 4, 2007 at 9:15 AM EDT

ISLAMABAD — About 700 followers of a radical mosque surrendered Wednesday as government troops with armoured personnel carriers tightened their stranglehold on the building a day after clashes killed at least 16 people, officials said.

Sporadic firing erupted around the mosque and an adjacent women's seminary in the early evening while three helicopter gunships circled overhead.

Minister of Information Mohammed Ali Durrani said that "a few hundred" militants could remain inside the Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, whose clerics have challenged the government by trying to impose a Taliban-style version of Islamic law in the capital.

One of those who decided to give up, 15-year-old Maryam Qayyeum, said many were not leaving the seminary. "They are happy. They only want martyrdom. They don't want to go home," she said.

The militants had been ordered by the government to lay down their arms and surrender by 11 a.m. Wednesday, following a day of bloody clashes between security forces and militants living inside the sprawling mosque compound.

All women and children who surrender will be granted amnesty, but males involved in killings and other crimes as well as the top mosque leaders would face legal action, said Deputy Information Minister Tariq Azim.

The number of militants remaining inside the complex by evening was not known.

for the whole article go here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home
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Musalmaan
07-05-2007, 06:15 AM
Thank God, the drama is ending (and almost ended). a very unfortunate and disturbing event for the people of pakistan.
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snakelegs
07-05-2007, 06:36 AM
yes, i agree. last i read is that there are still a number of people inside and they are saying that they welcome martyrdom. the deadline had passed and some gov't official said they are still hoping that common sense would prevail. i think the gov't is afraid.
there was a suicide attack on some police in frontier province - they're not sure if it was connected. (i think it probably was).
pakistan has enough problems - they sure don't need this! i hope it is over soon without any more deaths.
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Musalmaan
07-05-2007, 06:45 AM
Shariah can come by the Shariah way (by following the laws of Allah), we (muslims) need to understand this.
muslim can prosper only by the Help of Allah Ta'ala, and the Help of Allah Ta'la is with His promises, and His promises is with His commands. Muslim real asbaab is following the command of Allah Ta'ala no matter whatever the situation (halaat) is.
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AvarAllahNoor
07-06-2007, 12:43 PM
Do as you please but just make sure our Sikh Gurdwaras remain intact as they have done throughout the years. :D
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 10:27 PM
it looks like something is going to happen soon re: lal masjid. i hope there is no more bloodshed.
water has been cut off.
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 11:20 PM
there are 3 threads on this. 2 in chat and 1 in world affairs.
anyway, latest news is that presiden pervez musharraf has told them "surrender or die"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070707/...stan_mosque_dc
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Yanal
07-07-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
so many things are happening in pakistan - increasing taliban influence, nationalist/separatist demands, the sacking of the chief justice, the future of musharraf's dictatorship amidst increasing demands for democracy, the recent demonstrations/strikes, sectarian and ethnic violence, etc. etc.
i know there are a number of pakistanis here. would you share your "take" on what is happening and what you see as the likely future of pakistan, as well as what you would like to see happen in pakistan.
thanks!
Asalam alakum my parents are from pakistan and they think whatever is happening in pakistan including,(floods,the red mosque thing, and other terriosm) is bad and should'nt be happening
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snakelegs
07-07-2007, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Al Yanal
Asalam alakum my parents are from pakistan and they think whatever is happening in pakistan including,(floods,the red mosque thing, and other terriosm) is bad and should'nt be happening
yes. sadly pakistan has a huge amount of problems all going on at once.
this lal masjid thing, pakistan sure didn't need on top of everything else.
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AmarFaisal
07-09-2007, 10:12 AM
Another new problem has arised in the form of killings of 3 chinese in Peshawer:cry:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2007, 02:31 AM
^^I forget his name...but the Imams mother was shot to death while inside... Inna lillahi wa inna alayhi rajioun, Ameen. Also obviously for any others that have just recently passed during all this...
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 08:19 AM
Assalamoalaikum,

I am watching Geo News. The clash b/w the army and the Islamic rebelions is at it's peak. There r atleast 2 army officers dead. The injured in the Jamia mosque is also a lot. There is fierce fighting going on. According to Hamid Mir, a renowned reporter of Geo, the Islamic rebelions fighting in the Lal Majid are ready to give away their lives for their cause and thus r giving a very strong fight to the Pakistan army, which is trying it's best to save the innocent lives inside.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 08:21 AM
thanks for the update! horrible.
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 08:23 AM
50 bodies found on the roof and around the compounds of Lal Mosque
50 ppl have fleed the mosque since morning(including children)
8 army ppl dead
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nevesirth
07-10-2007, 08:25 AM
58 pple have been killed including 8 soldiers, the main offensive has started in the lal masjid, the siege has lasted for 9 hrs now. this started after negotiations failed at about 4am pakistani time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 08:33 AM
On a child's indication, 3 women have been found and taken out of Lala masjid's basements. There are around 10-12 children found with these women as well.
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north_malaysian
07-10-2007, 08:50 AM
Personally I dont like Musharraf because he sacked the chief justice...:mad:

Judiciary must be seperated from executive and legislative bodies...
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 09:12 AM
i am afraid that when this is finally over - it will not be the end.
pakistan has enough problems aleady without this.
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 09:36 AM
It is all very confusing for me. When this whole issue started, where were the parents of the children (inside lal masjid) at that time? Why didn't they come n collect their children when it was quiet clear that some type of assault if likely? These parents waited for the last few days (the past week) to collect their children. And now they r cursing the government!

How can u let ur child play in a danger area n then blame others for doing harm?

I am not in favor of Musharraf nor with the Ulimas but I am simply a Pakistani, and this question bothers me evertime I see parents crying on the tv.
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 03:47 PM
The flood in Pakistan













Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6253114.stm
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2007, 05:40 PM
^^:(
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IceQueen~
07-10-2007, 05:42 PM
:ooh: OMG when did that happen and in which area?! :ooh:

May Allah help them amin:(
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AmarFaisal
07-10-2007, 06:02 PM
In Balauchistan area, which is the worst hit. Among others, Sindh and Punjab too.
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 06:55 PM
even in frontier province, the rivers are at the point of flooding.
latest i've read on lal masjid is that abdur rashid ghazi has been killed.

July 10, 2007
Mosque Leader Killed in Pakistan
By SALMAN MASOOD and SOMINI SENGUPTA
ISLAMABAD, July 10 — One of the main leaders of the Lal mosque, where security forces have been fighting with militants holed up inside the sprawling compound, has been killed, according to an intelligence official. Explosions and machine-gun fire reverberated in the heart of the capital where the mosque is located, almost 13 hours after fighting began today.

The intelligence official, who requested anonymity, said that the leader, Abdur Rashid Ghazi, had been killed. He was one of the two brothers who ran the mosque and religious school. The other brother, Mohammed Abdul Aziz, was arrested last week while trying to flee in a burqa.

Today, a military spokesman said that after 10 hours of fighting, 8 security forces and roughly 50 presumed militants were dead.

Roughly two dozen children, whom the army said were being held hostage, escaped.

the rest of the article is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/10/wo...gewanted=print
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snakelegs
07-10-2007, 07:33 PM
just noticed that the "red mosque" thread in world affairs has been re-opened.
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snakelegs
07-12-2007, 04:30 AM
it has been closed again.
this was just posted in the "by what right is this still going on" thread.

New video by al-Qaeda deputy

Al-Qaeda deputy Terror chief Al Zawhiri publishes a new video calls for attacks on Pakistan.
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Tania
07-12-2007, 04:56 AM
I can't understand whats happening in Pakistan. How can fight the army with his own citizens. And how the rest of the people are quiet. :hmm:
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doorster
07-13-2007, 07:07 AM
Decision on new Lal Masjid admin after consultation:

Ejaz ISLAMABAD:

Federal Minister for Religious Affairs Ejazul Haq on Wednesday told PTV that any decision on giving control of Lal Masjid, Jamia Hafsa and Jamia Faridia to another mosque would be taken after consultation with the Wafaq-ul-Madaris and the Auqaf Department. He said there were almost 17,000 madrassas imparting education to more than 2,000,000 students across the country.

He said the government was committed to protecting these madrassas and improving their efficiencies — removing the mis-perceptions of extremism and militancy that the Lal Masjid issue had created.

Answering a question, the minister said the government had shown maximum flexibility, including ulema, ministers and government officials, in attempting to resolve the Lal Masjid issue peacefully.

He said Imam-e-Kaaba Al-Shaikh Abdur Rehman Al-Sudais had also condemned the actions of the Lal Masjid administration during his recent visit to Pakistan. Imam-e-Kaaba also extended his visit for five days to advise the Ghazi brothers against challenging the writ of the government, he added.

app
Courtesy DailyTimes.com.pk
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ABWAN
07-13-2007, 08:52 AM
Its sad that so many tragedies happen in Pakistan. As far as this particular incident is concerned, I have no idea who was right and who was wrong, but for a muslim government to storm a mosque and use force to kill ITS OWN people who are all muslims (including muslim scholars) is just utterly ridiculous. By doing this, they have just provided the much needed excuse for the west to storm any mosque anywhere in the world. If this same thing had happened in any other place of worship, I wonder how pakistan government would have reacted. From what I have seen, Pakistan has been the hub for good as well as bad things to happen to Islam and this by far eclipses all the bad things that have come out of Pakistan. The government has just helped more normal muslims to turn fanatics.
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doorster
07-13-2007, 09:00 AM
Govt will act against every madrassa promoting extremism, warns PM ISLAMABAD:

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has warned that madrassas promoting militancy and extremism will face the same sort of action taken against the militants of Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa.

Briefing journalists at Prime Minister’s House on Wednesday, Mr Aziz said the government would take “stern action” against any madrassas involved in illegal activities, as it had against Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa. He said madrassas which were functioning according to the law need not worry, but madrassas promoting militancy and extremism would not be tolerated.
The prime minister said the exact number of causalities among the militants in Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa would be ascertained after security force sweep the mosque and madrassa compound.

He said no bodies of women and children had been found inside the complex and the probability such bodies would be found during the clearing operation was low. “The major group of women was all together and came out all together,” he said.

“Saving the lives of maximum people was the centre-point of the government’s strategy and with the safe retrieval of 1,300 children, women and men from Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa, we have been successful in our objective.”

He said the government had credible information that a “certain category of people who were not really students”, ie, hardcore militants, had been holed up inside the mosque before the operation began. Mr Aziz said the militant students had bought the action upon themselves by challenging the writ of the government. “The people from this complex tried to enforce their own brand of laws and rules.”

He said the government had made every effort to resolve the issue through talks, but the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa administration did not respond positively. “The intransigence of a few extremists hampered every attempt for a peaceful solution of the issue and the government was compelled to launch the operation,” said the prime minister.

He said the extremists in Jamia Hafsa had damaged the image of the country and Islam.

He said the government had introduced madrassa reforms to ensure that religious schools also include formal education in their curricula. Mr Aziz on Wednesday also visited security personnel injured in the Lal Masjid operation at the Combined Military Hospital (CMH) in Rawalpindi. app

Courtesy DailyTimes.com.pk
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doorster
07-13-2007, 09:02 AM
Lal Masjid cleared, 73 bodies collected

* Bodies include no women
* Security forces clearing complex of mines and booby traps
* Media to be taken inside today
* 100 graves dug in Sector H-11 graveyard


By Zulfiqar Ghuman and Irfan Ghauri


ISLAMABAD: Security forces collected 73 bodies of militants as they cleared Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa of mines and booby traps on Wednesday after flushing out or killing all the militants holed up inside.


Special forces stormed the mosque at 4:30am on Tuesday and finished the first phase – clearing the compound of militants – by noon on Wednesday, while the second phase – sweeping the complex for unexploded ordnance and booby traps and collecting bodies – was still underway, Major General Arshad Waheed, director general of ISPR, told reporters in the afternoon.
He said later in the day as the cleanup operation was almost complete that 73 bodies had been collected, and none of them were of women.


However, a promised tour of the compound for the media was delayed from Wednesday to Thursday, and restrictions on journalists visiting hospitals in Rawalpindi and Islamabad remained in place.


Gen Arshad said that another soldier was injured in fighting overnight, taking the casualty figures for the armed forces to 10 deaths and 33 wounded. The death toll includes Lt Colonel Haroonul Islam, who was killed on Monday. Three more militants were also killed in fighting overnight, the military spokesman said. Some 50 militants were said to have been killed on Tuesday.


He would not comment on any civilian casualties. Militants were said to be holding hundreds of women and children hostage in the compound before the operation was launched. A group of 27 women were able to leave the mosque unharmed on Tuesday.


Gen Arshad said the 164 commandos who stormed the mosque had cleared each room in the complex in a systematic manner to avoid collateral damage. “No suicide attack was reported on security forces during the operation,” he added.


Earlier in the morning, a series of blasts rocked the area prompting re-enforcements to be called in. Sporadic gunfire and blasts were heard throughout the day as security forces continued the cleanup operation.
The security forces claimed to have arrested 15 injured militants on Wednesday. The government handed over 100 more students to their parents, taking the total to 247.


Daily Times Monitor adds: Around 100 graves were being prepared in Sector H-11 graveyard for the collective burial of militants killed in the Lal Masjid operation, Geo news reported.


Courtesy DailyTimes.com.pk
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ABWAN
07-13-2007, 09:03 AM
Funny that all this comes from a government that has been alleged (if not proved) to have sold innocent people as terrorists to the US govt.
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doorster
07-13-2007, 09:05 AM
No mass graves found in Lal Masjid: Tariq Azim



ISLAMABAD: State Minister for Information Tariq Azim has denied presence of any mass grave in the Lal Masjid complex.


Tariq Azim visited the mosque complex Thursday along with other top officials.
He told a European news agency that no mass grave has been found in the compound.


Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the mosque deputy cleric killed in the operation, had claimed that hundreds of persons including women were killed and buried in the mosque premises.


The minister denying the claim termed it baseless.


Courtesy Geo News
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wilberhum
07-13-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by ABWAN
Funny that all this comes from a government that has been alleged (if not proved) to have sold innocent people as terrorists to the US govt.
People can allege anything. You don't even need any evidence.
It has also been alleged that the Girl Scouts were behind 9/11. :embarrass
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snakelegs
07-13-2007, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
Welcome to the first online journal dedicated to Indian military and strategic affairs.
not such a strange source for someone who wishes death to pakistan.
please people, try not to get this thread closed. all the others had to be closed.
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snakelegs
07-13-2007, 09:00 PM
from what i can tell, even though president musharraf is not very popular, most pakistanis are behind him on taking action against the people in lal masjid, though some criticize him for taking so long to act.
there were, as to be expected on a friday, demonstrations against him in various parts of the country, but:
"In the north-western city of Peshawar (!) more than 1,000 protesters vowed to avenge the death of the mosque's deputy leader, Abdul Rashid Ghazi."
"In the capital, hundreds of demonstrators attended a rally organized by Pakistan's main alliance of radical parties, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal."
not exactly mass turnouts.
from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6897060.stm
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doorster
07-18-2007, 06:00 PM
There was I, thinking this thread was going to stay closed!

I wonder if it was closed just to remove most of my posts based on actual facts and reason or does it have something to do with recent forum crash when some of Br. Muhammad's actions were undone by whoever did the backup restoring?
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Muhammad
07-18-2007, 06:08 PM
:sl:

Yes, this thread was closed having reached ten pages, after which I thought all constructive discussion had been exhausted. When posts were lost during the forum downtime, it also cancelled some of the moderation aswell, hence why the thread was reopened.

While it is apparent there are many people at fault in the world, it will not do a great deal of benefit to simply pick out their faults and speak ill of them.

There has also been a reminder about nationalism not having a place in Islam - I would urge people to revisit that post.

:threadclo
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 07:22 PM
:sl:


I'm going to share facts and articles over the massarce of the Lal masjid by the regime of musharaaf. Several previous threads were opened but later closed due to ignorant remarks by some members --- i don't want doorster in this thread and all his posts deleted as well if they appear on my thread. I expect atleast that much courtesy from the management.

---
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Helena
07-18-2007, 07:30 PM
alhamdulilah i am kinda interested to know the facts/truth that lie in this event...

i still dnt know how/why/where/wot reasons it took place....???...
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by LABBAYK
alhamdulilah i am kinda interested to know the facts/truth that lie in this event...

i still dnt know how/why/where/wot reasons it took place....???...
Inshallah i'll share from different sources, some of which will be

Local (pakistan) news papers
Testimonies/statements of others whose kin are over there
Friends who are over there
other news sites not pressured by the gov'ts to report only what they are told

Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
:sl:

But, poor brother Doorster, you might hurt his feelings by asking for his posts to be deleted. :(

Despite the fact that I'm not very fond of the his posts, I think it's unfair to have him censored. As long as he is following the rules of this board and not being so overly disrespectful, he should be free to post.

Teeeheeehee, you sound like a bullying kid who doesn't want other people to play. :giggling:
:w:

Bro, all the previous threads on this topic were closed because of him blindly defending that dictator's regime. And all my posts were deleted from his thread "pakistan" and his tall tales were left on there. So i don't want his lies in here.
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wilberhum
07-18-2007, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Inshallah i'll share from different sources, some of which will be

Local (pakistan) news papers
Testimonies/statements of others whose kin are over there
Friends who are over there
other news sites not pressured by the gov'ts to report only what they are told



:w:

Bro, all the previous threads on this topic were closed because of him blindly defending that dictator's regime. And all my posts were deleted from his thread "pakistan" and his tall tales were left on there. So i don't want his lies in here.
That is so far from the truth I hardly recognized it. :thumbs_do
You just can deal with the fact that armed vigilanties running around is not something any government can allow and no reasonable person would want. In time you will have 50 gangs and every part of town will be controled and laws inforced by different gangs.
Now if you want to over throw the goverment, that is one thing, but gang rule is another.
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:18 PM
Here's a little history first of the masjid first.

The Mosque: The Lal Masjid (literally, "Red Mosque") is a descriptive name, as the building has red walls and a white dome.



The Schools: The Lal Masjid is affiliated with two religious seminaries, one for men and one for women. The women's religious school (Jamia Hafsa) is adjacent to the mosque. The men's religious school (Jamia Faridia) is located a few kilometers away. Together, the two religious schools have a population of about 10,000 students.



Location: The Lal Masjid is in downtown Islamabad, the capital city of Pakistan. It is located near the Parliament building, and within walking distance of the headquarters for the ISI intelligence service.



Leadership: The leader of the Lal Masjid at the time of its founding was Maulana Muhammad Abdullah, an outspoken cleric who supported the U.S.-sponsored rebellion against Soviet troops in Afghanistan during the 1980s. Maulana Abdullah was assassinated inside the mosque compound in the late 1990s. His two sons, Maulana Abdul Aziz and Abdul Rashid Ghazi, then took over leadership of the mosque in 1998.



History: The Lal Masjid was founded in 1965, and was a religious and political center for the city's elite and government officials. The mosque was rumored to have been organized and supported by the ISI intelligence service.
During the 1980s, the mosque helped recruit fighters for the Afghan rebellion against Soviet rule. In recent years, the mosque administration has called for Islamic law (sharia) to be imposed in Islamabad. The mosque leadership strongly criticized President Musharraf's decision to join the U.S. in its post-9/11 "war on terror," and killing of Muslims.

Conflict: The Lal Masjid administration and students have been in an escalating conflict with government authorities since January 2007. Government officials accuse the mosque leadership of organizing a vigilante "vice-squad" which has conducted raids against brothels and internet cafes, and kidnappings of police officers and suspected prostitutes. In April 2007, the mosque administration set up its own Islamic court in violation of government sanctions. The conflict came to a head in July 2007 with a standoff between police forces and students and mosque leaders who barricaded themselves inside the mosque compound.


The actual casualty figure still cannot be independently verified. According to some reports, Abdul Sattar Edhi was asked by the government to arrange for as much as four hundred burial shrouds. According to the latest government accounts, no hostages were found inside the mosque premises contradicting its own intelligence reports that women and children were being held against their will. Also, there are numerous accounts of witnesses seeing the mosque compound littered with hundreds of bodies. The media personnel were invited to witness the burials of large number of deceased from the Red Mosque. According to them, many coffins contained multiple severed limbs and it was hard to judge if only one victim was being buried in each coffin.
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:20 PM
Operation Silence Introduction

Operation Silence lead by Lt. Col Haroon-ul-Islam


Number of security and army personal take part = 13000

Number of Lal Masjid Mujahidin -= 300 aprox

Number of Students (Male + Female ) = 3000

Number of Army men killed = 200

Number of Lal Masjid Mujahidin Martyred = 300

Number of Lal Masjid Students Martyred = More then 2000

Number of citizens Martyred = aprox 100


Ammunition Used by Pakistan Army = All kinds of ammunition except the atom bomb

Ammunition Used by the Mujahidin = Pistols and Kalashnikov's

Reason for the battle : The Scholars and students of Lal Masjid wanted to establish a Sharia Law and end the numerous brothels in Islamabad, they wanted to end corruption in Islamabad. Also they wanted Sharia courts in Islamabad.

Pakistan Govt doesnt want Islamic law they want to give full freedom to prostitutes and allow corruption to spread..........

These are the reasons so many people in Lal Masjid have been martyred for.

On 3rd July Rangers wanted to seal off the gate of Lal Masjid when the students tried to stop them the rangers opened fire on them. In the firing a lot of innocent people were killed. In reply to this the students of Lal Masjid had no choice but to return fire. Environment Ministry building was set on fire also.

On 4th July the students and mujahideen were sieged inside for the first time the capital was under military curfew. Orders were given by the government to even shoot any reporters spotted in the area.

Mualana Abdul Aziz was lured out by the secret agencies in a burka, telling they will fully support him. As a result Maulana Abdul Aziz was arrested in a burka. On PTV all scholars and Islam was Insulted openely.

The secret agencies thought by arresting Maulana abdul aziz in this way they can persuade the students and mujahideen to surrender. It was proven this tactic didn’t work and the students and mujahideen were besieged inside Lal Masjid for 8 days.

Approximately 1700 students surrendered willingly from Lal Masjid but they were arrested and are still in custody.

So called Operation silence leader Lt Col Haroon was killed by the mujahideen. Also another 100 soldiers were killed.

Last day of the operation.

Ghazi Abdul Rasheed agreed to surrender but Musharaf ordered that Ghazi Abdul Rasheed and all the students be killed.

On 10 th July the Army Commandos martyred over a 1000 Students ( Male + Female ), and 300 Mujahidin were martyred in the cross fire.

Lal Masjid's militants commander Ghazi Abdul Rasheed was martyred the same day.

Pakistan Government claimed that there are foreign terrorists inside Lal Masjid. After the operation was over the government was unable to prove this claim of foreigners.

Lal Masjid and Madrasa Hafsa have both suffered a lot of damage. Now the government is planning to build a shopping complex or a restaurant in its place. They are in the middle of deciding yet.

All this raises the following questions...

1. Were the mujahideen of Lal masjid wrong? What was wrong if they were trying to establish an Islamic way of life in Pakistan?

2. They were trying to liberate the government from being a puppet to the USA, was this wrong?

3. Lal Masjid is only half a kilometer away from the headquarters of ISI..... How was ammunition delivered there?

4. Government claimed there are major terrorists inside.......where are those terrorists now?

5. The latest ammunition that the Pakistani govt claimed the militants have.........Where is such latest weaponry now?

6. Why are they hiding the bodies of the martyrs from Lal masjid.........?

Even if we agree that the mujahideen of Lal Masjid were wrong, there still remains the following questions.

1. Why were the students martyred for? Why did the government issue a shoot to kill order upon anyone leaving the Masjid?

2. If they were planning to martyr the students of the Masjid then why the charade, why not do it from day one?

3. When negotiations were taking why did the President still order the murder of the students?

4. Do Pakistani parents have to go through the process of enrollment, just to provide their children with an Islamic education?

These are such questions that our terrorist government can never answer.

In all this the loss is of people who want to elevate the status of Islam. The government controlled media is trying very hard to prove to the world these are terrorists not mujahideen, the public isnt stupid to fall for their lies.

Even today Ghazi Abdul Rasheed is a Hero in the eyes of the nation.. Pakistani nation really hate the Army and govt openely. In reaction to all this in Swat and malakand soldiers are being murdered daily.....

President Musharaf was hated by a minority before.. but after this operation the entire nation, politicians, religious parties, scholars are now all enemies of the President. The time is not far when the President will die a death of a dog. (Inshallah)

Over a 1000 students that have been martyred.........they were someones loved ones........ they were someones brothers and sisters, someones sons and daughters........... Their parents will never forgive their murderers.................

This incident in no way is less than the battle of Karbala............

Pakistan Army and Government played the role of Yazeed and his army........... but they dont know that...

Killers of Hussain are in fact the death of Yazeed

Islam grows stronger after every karbala

May Allah bless the martyrs of Lal Masjid with janat ul firdos and guide the muslims of Pakistan that they continue the work the martyrs of Lal Masjid started...............

Dear friends the reasons I have strongly expressed my emotions because the whole nation is mourning the martyrs of Lal Masjid...Out of them I am one of them........

The injustice crosses all bounds that for the murder of students of Lal Masjid the Soldiers will be awarded for bravery on the 14th of August...



Source: http://www.stringerz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=737
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Open Letter to Supreme Court Regarding Lal Masjid

Dear Honorable Justices Faqir Muahmmad Khokhar & Nawaz Abbasi:

Assalamo Alaikum

We thank you for your bold, honest and courageous action to take notice of the grave and grim situation of Lal Masjid. I would like to submit following points for bench’s kind considerations.

1. It is not difficult to arrest any Imam from any Masjid. Masajid are open public place and no body is denied access. Especially in Fajar Salah there are usually handful people. If the government wanted, instead of sending rangers and police, it could have cooled the situation and then one day could have sent 50 policemen in plain clothes who could have taken both brothers without much effort. After all the Government has abducted numerous people from their houses which are not even public places. The Government’s secret agencies have beaten journalists through its plain clothed intelligence people.

2. It seems that Government wanted this bloodshed. It started the entire affair with demolition of several mosques. It knew that there will be violent reaction. When right in the center of Islamabad Mac’Donald of Bilal Musharraf can be built on expense of public healthy recreation activity site, why the government is bent to demolish Masajid?

3. The Government arrested several people who were trying hard to bring peace. This includes MNA of Islamabad Mian Aslam, Syed Bial and Khwaja Sahib.

4. Under these circumstances when Mr. Pervaiz seems to create bloodshed and defame Islam and Muslims, it would not be surprising that Lt. Con. Haroon was shot dead by the secret agencies themselves.

5. Mr. Pervaiz who himself has violated the writ of constitution and all laws including those of Military, does not look nice to talk about writ of law etc.

6. Mr. Pervaiz knew well that such attack on Lal Masjid will bring violent response which would jeopardize the lives and business of our Chinese friends. As there are conflicts between interests of Bush and China , it could be a deliberate attempt of Mr. Pervaiz to please America .

7. We know that in case of Nursing conflict in PIMS, the female students of Lal Masjid were exploited and were given false alarm; it is quite possible that some secret female agents may be present in Black Burqah, and/or the students including female students might have been trapped by secret agencies.

8. I request you to kindly determine the extent of responsibility of bloodshed through acts of omission and commission and punish all parties including Mr. Pervaiz, Agencies, clergies and the Interior Ministry officials.

9. I request you to determine that whether Brothel houses and Massage Parlors are allowed in Pakistan per se. If not then the concerned authorities should be taken to the task for negligence in application of the law.

10. I request you to kindly order to all members of the conflict to not fire or attack anyone till the Supreme Court’s further decision. Ghazi Rashid may be taken in the custody of Supreme Court till further orders and all other female and males students be released with their names and address so that in case of need they can be summoned to the court.

I again thank you as your prompt action may save numerous precious lives. I offer my humble help and support to you in this case and also for improvement of Madrissah throughout country as I believe that like other educational institutions the Madrissah system require a lot of reforms in light of Islam. Instead of ignorant clergy, it should be producing high quality scientists etc with good and in depth knowledge of Islam.

With Most Cordial Regards,

Sincerely yours,

Prof. (Dr.) Anwar Ul Haque
Chief Consultant Pathologist
116. St. 49 F 11/3 Islamabad 44000
Pakistan .
Office Phone 9260189
Residential phone: 2294099, 2293707
Mobile phone: 03335129849



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doorster
07-18-2007, 08:21 PM
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:21 PM
US, China brace for Lal Masjid backlash
11 Jul 2007, 1018 hrs IST,Chidanand Rajghatta,TNN

WASHINGTON: The United States and China are bracing for a backlash from Islamic extremists after supporting the Pakistani military’s attack on the Lal Masjid complex in Islamabad that killed militant leader Abdul Rashid Ghazi and an unspecified number of fundamentalists.

The warning came even as the State Department publicly backed the Musharraf regime’s crackdown on Lal Masjid resulting in a bloody carnage.

''Of course, everybody wants to see these kinds of situations resolved peacefully. It's everybody's optimal solution. But it is fundamentally a matter for the government to decide when negotiations end and when action needs to take place to bring some sort of resolution to the situation,'' State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack said on Tuesday even as reports of a carnage trickled out.

Bush himself came out in support of Musharraf at a town hall meeting in Cleveland, without referring directly to the Lal Masjid carnage. ''I like him and I appreciate him,'' Bush said of Musharraf, calling him a ''a strong ally in the war against these extremists.''

''I am, of course, constantly working with him to make sure that democracy continues to advance in Pakistan,'' Bush added.

Echoing the administration’s support for the military action, McCormack said the Lal Masjid inmates had any number of opportunities to resolve the situation peacefully, ''yet they persisted and they persisted to the point of using children as human shields.''

Meanwhile, China too has asked its nationals in Pakistan to remain vigilant after terrorists killed three Chinese workers on the outskirts of Peshawar in the middle of the Lal Masjid siege.

The killing followed the military siege of Lal Masjid, which in turn was precipitated by some fundamentalist inmates kidnapping seven Chinese workers who they said worked in sex shops fronting as massage parlours.

The incident, and the subsequent massacre of Chinese workers in addition to past killings of Chinese citizens, is threatening to jeopardize ties between Beijing and Islamabad which are often described in hyperbolic terms like ''higher than mountains and deeper than oceans.''

On Tuesday, Beijing sternly urged Pakistan to follow up on the killing of Chinese workers ''seek the truth, punish the criminals, and to effectively strengthen the protection of Chinese citizens.''

Meanwhile, the week-long stand-off that ended in a massacre on Tuesday attracted little attention in the US, where focus is more on the debate over a pullout from Iraq.

In fact, a news channel on Tuesday cut into a story on Lal Masjid to bring breaking news of a small airplane crash in Florida.

Discussion and debate has been more vigorous in the print media and the online world, where there is little sympathy for General Musharraf’s ''Massacre at the Mosque'' as bloggers have dubbed it.

Most analysts believe the crisis was engineered by the General himself to deflect attention from the ongoing judicial spat and question the manner in which the situation was allowed to aggravate for several months in the heart of Islamabad.

US newspapers and think tanks have been scathing in their indictment of Musharraf misrule which many say is responsible for the rise in Islamic extremism, contrary to the administration’s line that General is a bulwark against fundamentalism.

''Pervez Musharraf’s misrule of Pakistan during the past eight years is finally catching up with him,
'' the Washington Post remarked tartly in an editorial, ironically headlined ' The General Under Siege . It noted that the General “is running out of supporters except in Washington.''

On Tuesday, the respected Carnegie Endowment for International Peace released a report that called for a US rethink on its Pakistan policy, saying ''Pakistan’s military rule only provides false sense of security, and western support for the military only reinforced regional instability.''

Pakistan’s military is complicit in the worsening security situation in Afghanistan-including the resurgence of the Taliban, terrorism in Kashmir, and the growth of jihadi extremism and capabilities, the report said, in a stunning rebuke to the Bush administration’s policies and prescriptions.

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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:22 PM
Operation toll over 400, up to 1,000, say MMA leaders


By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, July 12: Leaders of the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal on Thursday disputed the government’s claims about the number of deaths in the Lal Masjid operation, and said that more than 400 and up to 1,000 people had been killed in the mosque-madressah complex.

They, however, did not cite any credible source to corroborate their claim.

Addressing a news conference soon after their return from London, the alliance’s president Qazi Hussain Ahmed and secretary-general Maulana Fazlur Rahman condemned the operation and called it ‘a shameful military adventure’ and said they would thwart conspiracies against other seminaries.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed said: “We intend to move the Supreme Court, urging it to set up a judicial inquiry commission to gather details about the sham operation.”

He claimed that troops had placed two to four bodies in each coffin without gender discrimination and buried them.

He insisted that those taking part in the attack on Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa could not be called martyrs as, according to him, they had been killed while implementing the American agenda.

Calling upon President Musharraf to step down to save the country from plunging into anarchy, he said that deliberate attempts were being made to pitch the masses against the armed forces.

He said that protest rallies and ulema conventions would be held on July 15, 16 and 19 in Islamabad, July 26 in Peshawar, July 28 in Muzaffarabad,

Aug 2 in Karachi and Aug 9 in Quetta.

Maulana Fazlur Rahman rejected the proposal to demolish Jamia Hafsa, and said: “We will protect all madressahs and will not allow Jamia Hafsa to be moved from its present location”. He urged President Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz to stop threatening madressahs.

Referring to the arms and ammunition displayed in the mosque-madressah complex, the Maulana said the fight could have dragged on several weeks if there really was such a large stockpile of arms and ammunition.

Urging the government to hand over bodies to their legal heirs, he said that the government had deliberately allowed the situation to deteriorate over the past six months and intelligence agencies should be held accountable for the situation.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/07/13/nat6.htm
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:23 PM
Calls for a probe into operation get louder: Lawyers’ strike tomorrow


By Our Staff Reporter
LAHORE, July 12: The Lahore High Court Bar Association has demanded a judicial inquiry into the Lal Masjid episode. A resolution adopted by a general house of the bar demanded that the proposed judicial commission should comprise judges of the Supreme Court for ascertaining that how weapons were smuggled into the mosque, who were the suppliers, and what was the number of innocent male and female students who died in the army operation.

The resolution said the government should also be asked to identify all such mosques and seminaries where weapons were being stored so that secret agencies could not enact another such drama in future.

The meeting also offered Fateha for the innocent students killed in the operation.

Earlier, advocates Asma Jehangir, Mian Hanif Tahir, Hafiz Abdur Rahman Ansari, Lateef Sara and LHCBA president Ahsan Bhun spoke to the house.

They said the Musharraf regime used gunship helicopters, tanks and commandos to give impression to the world that the country was facing terrorists and thus the dispensation could prolong its rule.

According to them, an accused was given the right to defence in a court of law in civilized societies but in Islamabad hundreds of people were gunned down in a show of `state terrorism’.

They said first Gen Ziaul Haq had held the masses hostage for 11 years in the name of Islam and now Gen Musharraf was prolonging his rule in the name of moderation.

They said the lawyers’ drive would continue until independence of judiciary, elimination of the dictatorship and transfer of power to real representatives of the masses through a transparent, fair and peaceful election process.

STRIKE: The lawyers’ community will boycott court proceedings for the entire day on Saturday in Punjab.

A decision to this effect was taken in a meeting of the Punjab Bar Council on Thursday.

The boycott is aimed at protesting damage to 3,000 copies of the Holy Quran in Lal Masjid during the army operation, failure of the government to bury the dead according to Islamic norms, non-cooperation of the government with heirs of the seminary students whose names could not be found in official lists, barring the media from covering the operation.

The strike is also aimed at registering protest at the deteriorated law and order situation as kidnapped civil judge Malik Sanaullah was got released by his family after offering Rs4 million ransom to the kidnappers.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/07/13/nat19.htm
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:23 PM
Mufti Usmanis view







Gov'ts attempt on covering the Facts...





Mufti Sahab's statement clearly proves that the Govt. intention was to launch the operation.

Now the Govt. is calling the Eminent Muti a liar.

The eminent scholars have clearly said in a new conference that the deal was done but the it was changed in the president house.

Now the govt. is saying that is not true so that means that the scholars are liars.


Pakistan people are not fooled.
Reply

islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:24 PM
ISLAMABAD: The government’s repeated claims that late Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi had laid mines and held women and children hostage to use them as a “human shield” turned out to be mere “misreporting” of intelligence informers.

The reports of suicide bombers, reported to be present inside the Lal-Masjid-Jamia Hafsa complex, also turned out to be baseless. Sources said that during the bloody military operation, no landmines or hostages were found in the complex.

A source said that after finding out the real story, the authorities themselves felt embarrassed as to how to confront the media, both national and international, which was fed earlier with baseless intelligence reports.

However, the government’s strict decision not to allow the media to go even near the “battlefield” has successfully helped the authorities to cover up the intelligence agencies’ misreporting so far.

Major General Waheed Arshad, Director General Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), confirmed that no “suicide bombing” incident occurred during the operation. He also did not confirm that troops had found even a single mine laid inside the complex, although, he said that the combing operation was in progress.

Late Ghazi repeatedly requested that the media should be allowed to visit the complex to see by itself the situation but the authorities did not permit even the parliamentarians, the Ulema and the government representatives, including Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, to enter the complex apprehending that they would be made hostages.

None of the 27 women “rescued” by the authorities on Tuesday in the middle of the operation confirmed to have been held hostage or used as a human shield. Instead, reports revealed that these women were begging to the authorities to send them back to the Jamia Hafsa as they wanted to embrace ‘martyrdom’.

When they heard of the news of the death of Maulana Ghazi, they burst into tears. Federal Minister for Religious Affairs Ejazul Haq, when confronted on the issue, told The News that the women, who were held hostage, did not actually know that they were being used as “human shield”. About the reaction of women “rescued” from the complex, he said, “They have been brainwashed.”

When asked that usually those held hostage or used as a “human shield” fell victim to a commando action but in this case no hostage was even hurt, the minister said that the operation was conducted with extreme care and to ensure minimum-possible collateral damage.

Secretary General Wafaqul Madaris Maulana Hanif Jalandhari, when asked if he had any knowledge of the reports of women and children being used as hostage, said “that was all government propaganda.”

Jalandhari was included in the Ulema team that had made a last-ditch effort for a negotiated settlement of the Lal Masjid crisis but could not succeed after the Presidency changed the draft agreement.

He said that he was even contacted by parents of three female students of the Jamia Hafsa, who said that these students, despite repeated requests, were not willing to go home. On the question of “hostages”, Waheed Arshad told The News that if the women and children were not held as hostage, they should have come out of the complex on their own accord. He said that 27 women were “rescued” but he did not know how these women had reacted as reported by some newspapers.

When asked how the women who were held “hostage” and used as “human shields” were rescued unhurt, the military spokesman explained that the militants “guarding” the rescued women were first killed that led to their “rescue”.

Absar Alam, senior journalist and Bureau Chief of Geo News in Islamabad, whose team covered the moment-to-moment events of the Lal Masjid since July 3, said that there was no confirmation from any independent source of the government’s recent claims that the militants inside had held women and children as hostage, laid mines or prepared suicide jackets.

Alam said that till Wednesday evening, the media had no access to the Lal Masjid Complex, enabling the government to give its choice information to the press. For most of the stories, he said, the reporters were either dependent on the government or the militants who were holed up in the complex.


http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=8972
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:24 PM
Aljazeera reports that alledgedly both the Pakistani Red Crescent and Ehdi Foundation were asked for a thousand coffins.

They also report that their cameramen and journalists saw much more than just 73 graves being dug.

There haven't been any family of the deceased at the burial site, only gravediggers. These gravediggers are saying that some coffins had multiple corpses inside one coffin.

Also, they report that eyewitnesses said they saw two large vans leave the Masjid, which they thought were full of dead bodies to be dumped in a mass grave.



Hafiz Ghazi Shaheed smiling after 3 days and blood was still flowing before they burried him.

http://www.jasarat.com/multimedia.php

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...21/main1-1.jpg


***Shaheed smile for they are not dead, any doubts who is with Allah and who is the enemy of Islam and Allah here?***
Reply

islamirama
07-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Vanished in Red Mosque
By Aamir Latif, IOL Correspondent



ISLAMABAD — Almost a week after Pakistani government troops ended the Red Mosque standoff, many families are still searching for answers on the fate of hundreds of male and female students who were inside the mosque compound during the military confrontation.

"I have been running from here to there to find out about my son," Abdul Aziz Khan, a resident of Mansehra district of the northwestern frontier province, told IslamOnline.net.

"I have no idea whether he is alive or dead."

Khan’s 18-year old son, Ibrahim, had been studying in Jamia Faridia, a subsidiary of the Red Mosque for the last three years.

He was inside the mosque compound when the government troops mounted a massive attack against militant students and their leaders.

"I just want the government to let me know if my son is dead and where his body is," Khan said with tears rolling down his cheeks.

"I know I can’t do anything against the government. I just want to bury him with my hands."

Though the government puts the official death toll at 102, including 11 troops, independent sources believe that around 300 people, including several women and children, were killed in the fierce battles.

Earlier, the government denied that any women or children were killed during the eight-day assault.

However, it later admitted that "some innocent women and children" were killed.


Tormented by Uncertainty

Khan, a father of three including missing Ibrahim, said his son’s name is not on the lists of the dead, injured or detainees published by the government.

"I have learnt that scores of bodies have been buried in dark. This is highly unjust. The dead too have some rights. You can’t deny their rights on the basis that they are dead," said the emotionally-charged father.

"I don’t expect justice from this government. This is the government of liars and hypocrites. I have lodged my case in the court of Allah, and now He will do the justice."

Gul Zameen, a resident of Batagram district, has been waiting at an information center set up by the government for any information about his missing 14-year old grandson Amanullah.

"I don’t know who I should ask about him? His mother’s condition is deteriorating with every passing day," he told IOL.

Amanullah was memorizing the Holy Quran at Jamia Faridia for the last two years. His father is an overseas worker.

"I have visited many hospitals but there is no clue. My only request to the government is to inform us about our loved ones so that we can wail on their bodies," said the weeping grandfather.

"We don’t want anything more than that."



Fishy

Asma Jehangir, Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, doubts the official death toll.

"The government must inform us about the exact death toll, and hand over the bodies to their family members who have been running here and there for last various days," she said.

"This is a sheer violation of basic human rights. This is a fundamental right of a person to bury his near and dear one in accordance with his belief," added the rights activist.

"The way the government is hiding the facts, suggests to me that there is something fishy."

Jehangir, known to be a staunch opponent of religious forces, rapped the government for its heavy-handed handling of the Red Mosque issue.

"The government has ruthlessly used its power. We strongly condemn and will continue to condemn extremism and terrorism, but we can’t allow government to violate the human rights," she said.

"The way the government is hiding the facts, suggests to me that there is something fishy."

------------------------------------

Comments:

By Khalid Khan on 2007-07-18 08:45 (GMT)

"When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allahs spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell what an evil refuge!" Quran 4:97 The evidence is plenty and plain for all to read in the Glorious Quran. It is not hidden from any of us, nor can we pick and choose what portions we want to believe if we are Muslims. Indeed, the Pakistani soldiers have well earned the description of Munafiqs during the past five years of Americas war on Islam. While some may think these are hard times for them, their harshest days are yet to come when they face Almighty Allah to answer for their actions.

-----------

More commments and pictures of mass grave digging below

source
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Musharraf lauds Lal Masjid massacre

By Keith Jones
13 July 2007



In a nationally televised address Thursday evening, Pakistan’s US-backed dictator, General Pervez Musharraf, defended the Pakistani military’s storming of the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque), threatened military action against any madrassa (Islamic school) “used for extremism,” and promised to strengthen paramilitary and police forces in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP).


The general feigned regret at the large number who perished in the 36-hour battle that ended Wednesday afternoon with the military wresting control of the Lal Masjid, a mosque-school complex in central Islamabad. “Unfortunately,” declared Musharraf, “we have been up against our own people ... They had strayed from the right path and become susceptible to terrorism.”


Among the many things Musharraf omitted to say was that he personally scotched a deal Monday night to peacefully end the military’s siege of the Lal Masjid and that the mosque and its leaders had long been part of a nexus linking the Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus to various Islamicist militia groups.


The reality is Musharraf and his military regime staged a massacre. They deployed twelve thousand troops, including many of Pakistan’s elite units, in the heavily-populated center of Islamabad, then ordered an attack on the Lal Masjid that included artillery barrages, even though they knew that hundreds of unarmed people, including women and children, likely remained inside.


Through this bloodletting, Musharraf hoped to achieve two objectives: to please the Bush administration, which has been pressing Islamabad to intensify military action against pro-Taliban elements inside Pakistan even at the cost of antagonizing the country’s tribal and Pashtun minorities; and, second, to divert attention from, and increase his options in dealing with, the mounting opposition to his attempt to stage-manage his “re-election” as president.


Less than two months ago, more than forty people were killed in Karachi when the pro-Musharraf MQM with the connivance of security forces mounted armed attacks on persons gathering to welcome “suspended” Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry.


Just how many people died in the storming of the Lal Masjid complex remains an unanswered question close to two days after the military announced it had seized the mosque.


Pakistani authorities claim to have found 75 bodies in the Lal Masjid and put the total number of dead in the eight-day siege at around 108, including ten military personnel. Eighty-five of the 108 deaths reputedly came during Tuesday’s and Wednesday’s storming of the Lal Masjid.


But the real death toll is likely much larger. The Dawn (pakistan news paper) reported Thursday that an unnamed source who had visited the Lal Masjid and the adjacent Jamia Hafsa seminary for women shortly after the army takeover said the floors were littered with corpses wrapped in white shrouds: “I could not count them but they must be in the hundreds.”


The Dawn also observed that “a promised media trip to the site was put off a day, fuelling speculation that the government was buying time to remove some telltale signs.”


Ever since the military launched its action to seize the mosque, reporters have been barred from the three closest hospitals, so as prevent them from gauging the number of dead and wounded.


For hours after the fighting had ended, the government and military insisted that no, or next to no, women and children had been killed. Later they conceded that some of the 19 bodies too charred to determine gender or age might be those of women and children.


The government’s claims are belied by the scores, possibly hundreds, of people who continue to search desperately for relatives, many of them teenage boys and girls, who were enrolled in one of the two seminaries affiliated with the Lal Masjid and who are now missing.


Acknowledging the widespread public skepticism about the number of casualties, Information Minister Mohammad Ali Durrani insisted Thursday, “There’s no cover-up. Why should we?”


Reporters who toured the mosque complex Thursday afternoon described it as a battlefield, with bullet-riddled, blood-stained, and in some cases blown-out walls. Military spokesmen said this was evidence of the intensity of the resistance they faced.


A principal government justification for the assault was the reputed presence of “foreign militants” in the complex. This claim was vehemently denied by Abdul Rashid Ghazi, the younger of the two brothers who led the Lal Masjid. Ghazi, who was killed during the storming of the mosque, became the leader of the mosque militants after his brother was arrested on the second day of the siege.


Musharraf, in his speech to the nation Thursday, repeated the charge that foreign fighters had been ensconced in the Lal Masjid, but offered no proof.


Security forces remain on high alert across the country for possible reprisal attacks. On Thursday five people including three police were killed in a suicide bombing in the Swat district of NWFP, and two government officials were killed in a second suicide bombing in North Waziristan, which is part of Pakistan’s tribal belt.


The NWFP government, which is formed by the MMA, a six party alliance of Islamic parties, has decreed a three-day official period of mourning to commemorate all those killed in siege and storming of the Lal Masjid. Since Tuesday there have been demonstrations in many NWFP towns, with protesters denouncing Musharraf as a US puppet.


Opposition to the US government due to its current wars of conquest in Afghanistan and the Iraq and long history of supporting military dictatorships in Pakistan cuts across Pakistan regionally and, to a large degree, socially. But it is especially strong in NWFP, where the majority Pashtun population has strong ethnic and cultural ties to Afghanistan.


US praise for massacre

The Bush administration, meanwhile, has strongly praised the Pakistani government’s brutal suppression of the Lal Masjid militants. Speaking Tuesday as the military operation was in full swing, Bush professed his admiration for the dictator Musharraf and his efforts to build “democracy” in Pakistan: “I like him and I appreciate him.”


Various liberal voices like the New York Times that have been critical of Musharraf of late for not doing enough to suppress support for the Taliban insurgency in Pakistan have also welcomed the military operation against the Lal Masjid.


The US is deeply implicated in the Lal Masjid massacre and not only because the political establishment has been demanding Musharraf do more to support the US-NATO occupation of Afghanistan.


The US played a pivotal role in encouraging the Pakistani military and political elite in using Islamic fundamentalism as a bulwark against the working class and left and in developing ties to armed Islamacist groups in furtherance of US Cold War aims. These ties Islamabad subsequently used to further its own geo-political ambitions in Afghanistan, Kashmir and India-proper.


The US gave the green light to General Zia, who would proclaim “Islamicization” his principal policy, to seize power in a coup in 1977. Soon after, Zia’s regime emerged as the principal conduit for CIA and Saudi support for the mujaheedin in Afghanistan.


US priorities shifted with the end of the Cold War, but the Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus continued to nurture and expand its relations with various Islamic militias.


The prestigious Lal Masjid mosque, which is situated in the center of Islamabad in close proximity to many government buildings, including the headquarters of Pakistan’s secret police (the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency), became an important part of this nexus.


The La Masjid was long led by the father of Abdul Rashid Ghazi, Maulana Abdullah—
a man said to have enjoyed a close relationship with General Zia. And both Ghazi and his brother are known to have had links to the Pakistani military-security establishment.


Since seizing power in 1999, Musharraf has been forced to make a series of sharp shifts, under US pressure, ratcheting back the military-security apparatuses’ relations with Islamicist groups. Most dramatically, in September 2001, in response to US threats to bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age, Musharraf withdrew Islamabad’s support for the Taliban regime and agreed to allow the US to use Pakistan as a staging area for the conquest of Afghanistan. But Islamabad has also been pressured by Washington to curtail its support for the anti-Indian insurgency in Kashmir.
These steps have caused frictions within the Pakistani establishment, especially given the sidelining of the Pashtuns within Afghanistan’s US-installed government and the failure of Washington to prod India into make any meaningful concessions over Kashmir.


The full story of how and why the Lal Masjid Islamacists came into collision with the Musharraf regime has yet to be told. Some of their actions, such as voicing support for pro-Taliban elements in the NWFP and tribal areas, drawing attention to the growing number of “disappeared,” and kidnapping police and Chinese nationals as part of a campaign for sharia law, clearly cut across the government’s agenda.


Lucrative property was also an issue, with government authorities claiming facilities connected with the Lal Masjid and other Islamabad mosques were built illegally.


The vast majority of the students at the two seminaries affiliate with the Lal Masjid, many of whom participated in an armed agitation in Islamabad in support of sharia law, it needed be added, come from the most impoverished regions of Pakistan. The spread of madrassas is not due just to the political support they have enjoyed since the Zia dictatorship. It is also a product of the wretched poverty that prevails in Pakistan and the abysmal state of public education.


That said, there is much evidence to show Pakistani authorities allowed the Las Masjid agitation to develop, ignoring for months actions that challenged the government’s legitimacy. As numerous observers have pointed out, it is ludicrous to suppose that large quantities of arms and ammunition could have been smuggled into the Lal Masjid unbeknownst to the ISI high command, whose plush offices are within easy walking distance.


At the very least, the Musharraf regime saw the Islamic agitation in the capital as a means of intimidating the working class and democratic opposition to military rule.


After temporizing and conniving with the Lal Masjid agitation, Musharraf cynically and brutally turned against it, seeing its bloody suppression as a means of both demonstrating to Washington his determination to heed the US’s demand he crack down on Taliban support in Pakistan and of perpetuating his dictatorship.


As part of his attempts to broker a power-sharing deal with Benazir Bhutto and her Pakistan People’s Party (PP), the general is trying to cast himself as a “secularist” and advocate of “enlightened” Islam. Bhutto, for her part, has repeatedly indicated that she is prepared to ally with the general in the name of opposing the Islamic right, if a satisfactory division of the spoils of office can be hammered out.


Bhutto’s PPP welcomed the military action against the Lal Masjid and has refused to join forces with the most of the other opposition parties, including Nawaz Sharif’s PML (N) and the MMA, in a new alliance. The All-Parties Democratic Movement has called anti-Musharraf rallies for next month, but the PPP, which has increased its interaction with the Bush administration in recent months, has declared the time not propitious for a popular agitation.


Should it prove impossible for him to strike a deal with the PPP, Musharraf has the option of using the government’s confrontation with Islamic “extremists” as the pretext for imposing emergency rule and thereby short-circuiting the elections promised for this fall.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/ju...paki-j13.shtml
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islamirama
07-18-2007, 09:06 PM
If one observes all the points made here one will realise how the whole operation was conducted. Same tactics were applied as what U.S did exactly 4 years ago in Iraq.

The Excuse for assault was weapons of Mass Destruction and then toppling Saddam Hussein. Many things were crafted ( 90% based on Lies ) in order to get U.K on board.

Dr. Kelly ( one of the scientists in U.K ) who was against the dossier presented in Commons by the ex-PM Blair mysteriously died ( Reports were he committed suicide/ Allah knows Best ).

So same tactics were applied and implemented here as Musharaff's masters did 4 years ago. Lies and forged claims were based to kill scores of people. Attacked the mosque made one Muslim kill another Muslim.

Scare mongering and use of force has become a norm, one day we are killing Muslims in Waziristan and another day in the Capital in the name of so called War on Terror.

People have more faith in Democratic system than the Islamic system, this fact gives me shivers, have us all really forgotten our values and purpose our existence. Well I don't blame anyone after seeing Mulana Fazal ur Rehman and Qazi Hussein Ahmed being part of a semi Muslim semi Democratic ( which ever suites them ) establishment.
This Massacre was planned to please Musharraf's masters. These are desperate measures to secure more support and funds from the West ( Elections are knocking on the door ) hand pecked people need money to run there political campaigns and bribe poor villages to get their votes. We might see another operation anywhere in Paksitan get a few foreigners and cash them in another way of fund raising.

Also this Massacre was done to divert peoples interest from the previous messes made by the Govt. including the CJ's cause and APC in London.
One more thing how many foreigners are actually captured from Lal Masjid or Jamia Hafsa as claimed By Mr. Ijaz ul Haq in the recent Capital talk. He blatantly lied using a Dead Man's ( Mualana Abdur Rasheed Ghazi May Allah Forgive him and give him Jannah ) name.These people really haven't an ounce of dignity or shame left.

-------------

Thanks to this massacre by the gov't. The NWF and Muslims are fighting back. There has been several attacks on the army all over pakistan. Arm soldiers are being bombed and killed left and right and this will continue as the kins and supporters of the massacred fight back for revenge and for justice.


Pakistani troops face more attacks

Violence spreads in Pakistan
Reply

snakelegs
07-18-2007, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama

Thanks to this massacre by the gov't. The NWF and Muslims are fighting back. There has been several attacks on the army all over pakistan. Arm soldiers are being bombed and killed left and right and this will continue as the kins and supporters of the massacred fight back for revenge and for justice.


Pakistani troops face more attacks

Violence spreads in Pakistan

you obviously (from previous threads) find it quite acceptable for a group to take the law in to their own hands and try to bring shariah to pakistan by force, and you obviously think it's fine to declare "holy war" on pakistan. i am assuming that you think the suicide killings of soldiers in frontier provence and FATA is okay also?
don't you think these people will eventually supply the very excuse the u.s. has been seeking to take direct military action against pakistan?
Reply

islamirama
07-18-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
you obviously (from previous threads) find it quite acceptable for a group to take the law in to their own hands and try to bring shariah to pakistan by force, and you obviously think it's fine to declare "holy war" on pakistan. i am assuming that you think the suicide killings of soldiers in frontier provence and FATA is okay also?
don't you think these people will eventually supply the very excuse the u.s. has been seeking to take direct military action against pakistan?
So you condone the massacre of innocents by the army? tell me what is difference between hitler's army and these armie's of today that kill their own civilians? i personally don't see any.

The people are enraged. Their loved ones died unjustly and they will fight back. That is the difference between americans and these people. They will not let their gov't become a military state and loose all their freedom. When the gov't no longer serves the needs of the people (but of other nations) and the people are threatened rather then protected by this gov't and it's army, then a regime change comes. History is a witness to that fact.
Reply

snakelegs
07-18-2007, 09:30 PM
no, i don't condone any killing and i certainly think the whole thing could probably have been better handled.
to compare it to hitler is just plain crazy.
yes there are valid issues in pakistan that need to be addressed and president musharraf's position is one of them.
but no government can allow a group to take the law in to their own hands, no matter how noble the cause.
Reply

islamirama
07-18-2007, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
no, i don't condone any killing and i certainly think the whole thing could probably have been better handled.
to compare it to hitler is just plain crazy.
yes there are valid issues in pakistan that need to be addressed and president musharraf's position is one of them.
but no government can allow a group to take the law in to their own hands, no matter how noble the cause.
I understand where you're coming from. Let me share something with you.

Iran had a leader that didn't like US. US replaced him with Shah, who was not only US puppet but a very very ruthless dictator over his people. The result was a revolution by the people and out came the islamic iran you see today.

My point is that, when the ruler and gov't isn't "by the people, for the people" but against the people, then the people will do what they have to in order to protect themselves.

It doesn't matter what you or I think, the people are not happy and they will do what they feel needs to be done, they are seeking justice in their own way when the unjust has no one to answer to.
Reply

wilberhum
07-18-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
So you condone the massacre of innocents by the army? tell me what is difference between hitler's army and these armie's of today that kill their own civilians? i personally don't see any.

The people are enraged. Their loved ones died unjustly and they will fight back. That is the difference between americans and these people. They will not let their gov't become a military state and loose all their freedom. When the gov't no longer serves the needs of the people (but of other nations) and the people are threatened rather then protected by this gov't and it's army, then a regime change comes. History is a witness to that fact.
So you condone the massacre of innocents by the army?
Straw man argument. Not supporting vigilante justice in not condoning a massacre.

tell me what is difference between hitler's army and these armie's of today that kill their own civilians?
Hitler set war on the world. The Pakistani Army stopped some people who took the law into where own hands.
i personally don't see any.
Your emotions have blinded you.
The people are enraged.
True. And some are running around killing people that had nothing to do with it.
Their loved ones died unjustly and they will fight back.
They didn’t have to die. That was a choice they made.

You want the government over thrown. Well I don’t have much good to say about Musharraf. But I don’t think a new government will be better, then that is only a personal opinion.

But you have to loose all common sense to think armed gangs imposing there laws over the government laws is a good answer.
Reply

snakelegs
07-18-2007, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
I understand where you're coming from. Let me share something with you.

Iran had a leader that didn't like US. US replaced him with Shah, who was not only US puppet but a very very ruthless dictator over his people. The result was a revolution by the people and out came the islamic iran you see today.

My point is that, when the ruler and gov't isn't "by the people, for the people" but against the people, then the people will do what they have to in order to protect themselves.

It doesn't matter what you or I think, the people are not happy and they will do what they feel needs to be done, they are seeking justice in their own way when the unjust has no one to answer to.
yes, many (probably most) people are unhappy - however this does not translate into "everyone wants pakistan to be under shariah".
Reply

snakelegs
07-18-2007, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
I wonder what the point was in deleting these posts from Pakistan thread only to be reposted here in defiance of admin who deleted them?

what good does this to his authority?

"While it is apparent there are many people at fault in the world, it will not do a great deal of benefit to simply pick out their faults and speak ill of them."
i agree, but it is a shame that we can not discuss this issue while being mindful of avoiding backibiting and nationalism.
i was sorry that the pakistan thread was closed because it was about many subjects beside lal masjid and i thought it would be good to keep a pakistan thread available because much is going on there now.
ok i'm outa here. :hiding:
Reply

Muhammad
07-19-2007, 02:17 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

*Threads Merged*

Originally Posted by snakelegs
it is a shame that we can not discuss this issue while being mindful of avoiding backibiting and nationalism.
I agree, and a very important point is that violence and the killing of innocents is contrary to the teachings of Islam, as explained below, which is taken from various parts of a publication clarifying misconceptions about Islam.

Islam considers human life as sacred - Allaah (swt) in the Qur'an equates the taking of even one human life unjustly with killing all of humanity. There is no doubt that the act of inciting terror into the hearts and minds of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of their homes, and the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children are all forbidden and detestable criminal acts according to the divine law of Islam. In fact, all manifestations of injustice and oppression are condemned by Islam and its God-fearing, orthodox adherents.

Thus Islam enjoins upon its believers to strive in purifying themselves, as well as establishing peace and justice in society. Regardless of how legitimate the cause may be, the Qur'an never condones killing innocent people. Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy and forgiveness. It is replete with examples of moderation and it exhorts its adherents to follow the middle course in all affairs, religious or secular. It is balanced in all aspects and does not condone any form of extremism.

With this important concept in mind, we shall put an end to this discussion. Please do not create any more threads on this topic as it has already been discussed at length.

Thread Closed.
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