How do i refute a muslim that says bin laden and al-qaida are heroes?

[rania2820]

:sl:

i have been debating on another muslim forum about how bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. but they keep on saying that they are great. and whenever i show them a fatwa saying bin laden is extreme they always say "well thats from a saudi/salafi sheikh so im not going to believe that".they even have gone against sheikhs like ibn baaz.

is there anyway i can convinced them bin laden is not a hero?

[tomtomsmom]

Sorry I am not an expert but isn't there something in th Quran that says something like even in times of war it is not ok to kill innocents and women and children?

[IceQueen~]

we cannot say anything about anybody because only Allah knows what is in their hearts

as for what happened and what they are blamed for...well we're still waiting for the evidence to this day....

terrorrism is NOT heroism nor is it jihad -because it involves harming innocent and unarmed people including women and children which is AGAINST Islam

sis I think the Question here is not who is good and who is bad but what Islam teaches about such actions

[Umar001]

Why dont you discuss the basic stuff that is wrong in jihad and so on, and if they agree then thats all you need, you do not need to know whether Bin Laden is good or bad. But if you get them to agree that youcant bomb children and women and so forth, then if they say 'Bin laden does not do that' then you say ok and if they say he does then you show them why it is wrong.

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[rania2820]

Why dont you discuss the basic stuff that is wrong in jihad and so on, and if they agree then thats all you need, you do not need to know whether Bin Laden is good or bad. But if you get them to agree that youcant bomb children and women and so forth, then if they say 'Bin laden does not do that' then you say ok and if they say he does then you show them why it is wrong.

but they believe bin laden's jihad is right. and they have also accused me of rejecting jihad because i don't support al-qaida,.when i tell them about the killing women and children they just say"well the americans have killed our women and children so what?" and they say the shiekhs sugar coat jihad.

[islamirama]

but they believe bin laden's jihad is right. and they have also accused me of rejecting jihad because i don't support al-qaida,.when i tell them about the killing women and children they just say"well the americans have killed our women and children so what?" and they say the shiekhs sugar coat jihad.

Did you prove to them qaeda kills women and children? All qaeda wants is kuffars out of muslim land.

It's funny you are concerned about these guys. Polls of 25 muslim countries showed that majority muslims supports and agrees with Qaeda and their actions, just not on some minor aspects.

[rania2820]

Did you prove to them qaeda kills women and children?

they say that those claims are from the kuffar. so even if i do show them evidence they would not believe that and say "its the kaffirs making up these lies"

[islamirama]

they say that those claims are from the kuffar. so even if i do show them evidence they would not believe that and say "its the kaffirs making up these lies"

sometimes you don't provide anything, rather ask them to give their reasoning and what not and then pick flaws in that

sometimes, others will say something even if they don't believe it to be true just to go against what you are saying

perhaps they see you condeming qaeda and not saying anything about atrocities of the kuffars in muslim lands and take you to be a "moderate" defender of the kuffars

[lilah]

that is your friend's opinion...personally, i'd follow with, "my hero is Muhammed (salla lahu alaihe wa salam) and his companions who was closer to Allah :arabic2: and followed His commandments and fought in His name, unlike bin laden and al quada who follow their own religon...and fight for their own political reasons..... afterall, if you don't fight the way Allah :arabic2: commanded you to, you are not fighting in his name."

then i'd say something like, "maybe Bin laden and al qaeda is a fitnah for muslims to see who would follow Allah :arabic2: and his messenger as opposed to some guy with guns, who's only real military strategy is to use muslims as human explosives... after all, the americans might be killing our brothers and sistesr....but so is bin laden and al qaeda. Muslims that die under the hand of the americans have a better chance of dying shaheed than those that die for bin laden, don't you think?"


but that's my opinion....

[ummAbdillah]

:sl:
allah:arabic2: knows best. It is my oppinion that we should not
waste time talking bout these things. we should worry about ourselves
and whether or not we are good muslims who enjoin good and forbid evil.
Allahu alam. i am not saying that Bin laden is a great guy, and allah is the judge. - just my oppinion.
:w:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Tell him to prove it.

[- Qatada -]

Sorry I am not an expert but isn't there something in th Quran that says something like even in times of war it is not ok to kill innocents and women and children?

From Qur'an, Allaah says:

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]

The Messenger of Allaah said:

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]

[tomtomsmom]

^^Thank you brother for clearing that up. I thought I had once read that. As always you bring clarity to my confusion!

[Umm Yoosuf]

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

I persoonally would't waste my time and energy in debating with such people. There are better and more benefical thigs we can do with our time. If someone wants to know the truth then Alhamdulilaah, present them with evidence how ever if they want to debate, whats that point? These sort of things cause divisin and hatred between the Muslims.

[Umar001]

but they believe bin laden's jihad is right. and they have also accused me of rejecting jihad because i don't support al-qaida,.when i tell them about the killing women and children they just say"well the americans have killed our women and children so what?" and they say the shiekhs sugar coat jihad.

Two things, Bin Laden is a name, he is a person, he is human, do not focous on him. Break it down for them. Say, if any organisation is upon the Qur'an and Sunnah according to their Right understanding i.e. those of the companions and also listens to scholars then I will be all for such an organisation, noone would disagree with such a statement, because even if Iblees followed that then we would be for IT, may Allah curse him.

So break it down, get them out of this 'Bin Laden' mentality, so speak to them, they claim 'they killed our kids so let indescrimiatly kill' well ask them to bring forth the proof that such a foundation is found in the Shari'ah, that, a haraam act becomes halal if the enemy does it first. This is what they are saying.

As for they speaking of the scholars, ask them to becareful when they speak about anyone, and in particular people who might have knowledge, and I would not advise debating over scholars.

they say that those claims are from the kuffar. so even if i do show them evidence they would not believe that and say "its the kaffirs making up these lies"

This is why I advise to not stick to labels, bin laden or al qaeda, but if they are open minded you can show them what scholars have said to bin laden or other such people.

I persoonally would't waste my time and energy in debating with such people. There are better and more benefical thigs we can do with our time. If someone wants to know the truth then Alhamdulilaah, present them with evidence how ever if they want to debate, whats that point? These sort of things cause divisin and hatred between the Muslims.

To an extent I agree, it depends on how much time is spend and so forth, but to the sister, I will say that Albani when debating a person was reminded:

A listener: To be frank my Sheikh, this discussion is going nowhere. If one does not make his intention and mind pure he will never understand.

To which he, may Allah have mercy on him, replied:

Al-Albaani: This is indeed a good advice. We live in an age where one of the fatal characters is spread, which is everyone liking his own opinion. Today everybody who reads a bit of Qur'aan or learns a bit of Ahkaam (rulings) and Ahaadeeths, he thinks he is something in 'ilm (knowledge) although he can not read the Ahaadeeths without errors, and then he wants to argue everything he sees ...

I.J.O Supporter: .. trying to interrupt ...

Al-Albaani: The time for discussion is over. I will take the advice of the brother.........

This is on Munatharah ma' tantheem al-jihad al-islami tapes I believe.

[Chechen]

Personally, I don't trust Ben Laden. When Shamil Basayev was asked if he knew Ben Laden or anything about him he told the journalists to ask the British secret services because they knew everything about him. So basically he told them that he works for them. And there's many things about him which are weird but Allah knows best.

[AB517]

we cannot say anything about anybody because only Allah knows what is in their hearts

as for what happened and what they are blamed for...well we're still waiting for the evidence to this day....

terrorrism is NOT heroism nor is it jihad -because it involves harming innocent and unarmed people including women and children which is AGAINST Islam

sis I think the Question here is not who is good and who is bad but what Islam teaches about such actions

This is 100% correct.

This is a war of men not God.

Alquada is my enemy not Islam.

I hope Muslims see that men use religion as a tool to unite people for personal gains. We Christains leanered it the hard way... we did it ... and we know it is not the best idea.


I will not kill in the name of GOD.

If I have to I become a soldier of Faith ... I will stand united with a muslim , Jew, Hudu, any group of american idian, Aborigany, all good people from pole to pole as a soldier of Faith against satan. :cry: , and I will cry when it is over for both sides.

It will be clear to all men that this is the pitched battle.
2+2=4 no translation needed.

AB

[nocturne]

I felt bin-laden just chose the wrong path for his actions. Its a pity that a peaceful religion, like ours, have been potrayed so wrongly in the media.

IF Al-qaeda was responsible for 9/11, then it begs the question of what benefits it brought to muslim?

[abumusa]

Regarding Usamah bin Ladin, 'Abdullah 'Azzam said:

"...they do not look to the dunya. If it comes to them, it is in their hands, and does not enter their hearts. The dunya is a means to an end, not the end itself. So, such people eat to live; they don't live to eat. They eat just enough to keep them alive, and on this occasion, I would like to ask Allah - the Mighty and Majestic - to preserve our brother, Abu 'Abdillah, Usamah bin Ladin. I have never laid my eyes on a man like him on this Earth; he lives in his home like one who is in a state of poverty. I used to stay at his home in Jeddah when making Hajj or 'Umrah, and he did not even have a single chair or table in the entire house! He had four wives, and not a single one of their houses had a chair or table in it. Any laboror from Egypt or Jordan has a better house than Usamah. Despite this, if you ask him for a million riyals for the Mujahidin, he would pull out a check and write it for you in a matter of seconds.

He once went to one of his sisters and presented her with Ibn Taymiyyah's fatwa regarding Jihad with one's wealth. So, she pulled out her checkbook and wrote a check for eight million riyals. All of a sudden, those who were around her came to talk her out of it, asking her: "Are you insane? You give out eight million in one shot, while you live in a rented apartment? It will cost at least one million for you to build your own house!" So, she went back to Usamah and said to him: "Usamah, my brother, I need one million of these riyals to build a house for myself." So, he said to her: "By Allah, I will not give you back a single riyal, as you live in an apartment, relaxed, while the people are dying and cannot even find a tent to shelter themselves with!"

If you were to sit with him, you would think that he was a servant from the servants, with his manners and manhood. By Allah, I hold him to be like this. I asked Sayyaf to announce a decision to prevent him from moving from here (in Peshawar), but he was always eager to be in the midst of battle. His blood pressure would drop often, so, he would fill his pockets with salt and carry a jug of water with him. He was unable to walk, as he would constantly have to swallow some salt and drink some water in order to raise his blood pressure.

Believe me when I tell you that when he would visit me in my home, when he would hear the telephone ring, he would get up and bring it to me, so that I would not have to get up from my place! Such manners, humility, manhood...we ask Allah to preserve him, if He Wills."

['Fi Dhilal Surat at-Tawbah'; p. 301]

[nevesirth]

:sl:

i have been debating on another muslim forum about how bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. but they keep on saying that they are great. and whenever i show them a fatwa saying bin laden is extreme they always say "well thats from a saudi/salafi sheikh so im not going to believe that".they even have gone against sheikhs like ibn baaz.

is there anyway i can convinced them bin laden is not a hero?

i dont see wht ur problem is. y are u trying so hard to prove tht ibn laden is not a hero? this is someone who stood up against the kafr for the sake of islam. u might not agree with his method, but u shouldnt support the west against him. all u r trying to do is give them the picture tht muslims are the villans while they are the heroes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[arabookworm]

:sl:

i have been debating on another muslim forum about how bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. but they keep on saying that they are great. and whenever i show them a fatwa saying bin laden is extreme they always say "well thats from a saudi/salafi sheikh so im not going to believe that".they even have gone against sheikhs like ibn baaz.

is there anyway i can convinced them bin laden is not a hero?

I don't think the quran considers people who needlessly kill large numbers of non-combatants heros.

[islamirama]

i dont see wht ur problem is. y are u trying so hard to prove tht ibn laden is not a hero? this is someone who stood up against the kafr for the sake of islam. u might not agree with his method, but u shouldnt support the west against him. all u r trying to do is give them the picture tht muslims are the villans while they are the heroes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed, he may not be all 100% islamic and shar'iah based but he is a 1000 times better than the "Muslim" rulers we have who lack the backbone to do what he did, stand up against the kuffirs and their evilness in the Muslim world.

[Redeemed]

Why dont you discuss the basic stuff that is wrong in jihad and so on, and if they agree then thats all you need, you do not need to know whether Bin Laden is good or bad. But if you get them to agree that youcant bomb children and women and so forth, then if they say 'Bin laden does not do that' then you say ok and if they say he does then you show them why it is wrong.

Is it considered a jhad when Muslims kill Christians because they don't accept Islam as the true path? For example, Not all Muslims are persecuting Christians, but in the past decade or so they have in Northern Nigeria were they went on a rampaged against Christians where two pastors were killed along with 300 laymen. The fanatics severed Pastor Selchun's hand. When it fell to the ground, he raised the other hand and sang, "He is Lord. He is risen from the dead and he is Lord. Every Knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." In Indonesia, similar events and in Sudan and Pakistan. I call that attacking Christians. I don't believe you guys do these things, but I wish I could say the same about your Muslim brother counter parts in other parts of the world. Jesus teaches us that a tree is known by its fruit.

[Redeemed]

:sl:

i have been debating on another muslim forum about how bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. but they keep on saying that they are great. and whenever i show them a fatwa saying bin laden is extreme they always say "well thats from a saudi/salafi sheikh so im not going to believe that".they even have gone against sheikhs like ibn baaz.

is there anyway i can convinced them bin laden is not a hero?

You brought up some good points and excellent questions. I think your concerns show the greater concern for the direction Muslims take than anything thing else I have heard on this forum. I adamantly disagree with those of your Muslim brothers that reprove you for your important concerns.

[doorster]

perdonarme por favor
but aint you suppose to confine your preaching to comparative and world affair forums?

[Redeemed]

perdonarme por favor
but aint you suppose to confine your preaching to comparative and world affair forums?

Why did u post undisclosed for your way of life if everyone knows you are a Muslim? By the way, I think my comments fit this thread. What part doesn't? I am not trying to compare religions on this thread. ?entonces que pasa con esta (tu) pregunta?

[جوري]

perdonarme por favor
but aint you suppose to confine your preaching to comparative and world affair forums?

his efforts would be best suited trying to convert the good people of Maldives -- I just found a whole Evangelical website trying to get their satanic tentacles on that little Island as well... it is so disheartening. I just Posted the link under introduce yourself to a sister from Maldives.
The Internet and its shady characters makes my blood boil sometimes, they can never leave people happy, they want the whole world astray along with them, worshipping a tri-god who came down in guise to impregnate a woman with himself and be born and die crescendo(ing) into some self-immolation for man kind's "benefit" and yet have the audacity to tell the Muslim world they are backwards or claim that they are monotheists...
La 7wla wla qiwta ila billah!
:w:

[north_malaysian]

Personally, I don't trust Ben Laden. When Shamil Basayev was asked if he knew Ben Laden or anything about him he told the journalists to ask the British secret services because they knew everything about him. So basically he told them that he works for them. And there's many things about him which are weird but Allah knows best.

Who knows, he might be sipping a cup of tea right now in the White House. That's why the Americans cannot "catch" him in Afghanistan.

[doorster]

perdonarme por favor

Why did u post undisclosed for your way of life if everyone knows you are a Muslim?

None of your business

?entonces que pasa con esta (tu) pregunta?

me no understande pidgin espanol (No entiendo español del pidgin)

[Redeemed]

perdonarme por favor
None of your business
me no understande pidgin espanol (No entiendo español del pidgin)

If you don't understande pidgin spanisho why do u write in pidgin espangelish? I know "it is none of my business" So how do we convince Muslims that bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. We shouldn't have to. Their actions tell who and what they are. Just like your comments and mine tell who we are. :)

[Redeemed]

Who knows, he might be sipping a cup of tea right now in the White House. That's why the Americans cannot "catch" him in Afghanistan.

that tells me you don't think much of the President or bin laden:D

[doorster]

If you don't understande pidgin spanisho why do u write in pidgin espangelish? I know "it is none of my business" So how do we convince Muslims that bin laden and al-qaida are not heroes. We shouldn't have to. Their actions tell who and what they are. Just like your comments and mine tell who we are. :)

Just come clean and admit that he was one of your CIA agents, which you (America) and we Pakistanis needed as a front and portrayed him as a heroic mojahid so that we could get on with the job of dismantling Soviet Union without them sticking 30000+ nukes up our jacksies(backsides)

[Redeemed]

Personally, I don't trust Ben Laden. When Shamil Basayev was asked if he knew Ben Laden or anything about him he told the journalists to ask the British secret services because they knew everything about him. So basically he told them that he works for them. And there's many things about him which are weird but Allah knows best.

It is nice to know that there are some Muslims that don't trust bin laden.

[Redeemed]

Just come clean and admit that he was one of your CIA agents, which you (America) and we Pakistanis needed as a front and portrayed him as a heroic mojahid so that we could get on with the job of dismantling Soviet Union without them sticking 30000+ nukes up our jacksies(backsides)

sorry, but that missle went over my head

[جوري]

sorry, but that missle went over my head

maybe it is a P5T type missile on its way to make a U turn and get you where you most need it? :)

peace!

[doorster]

sorry, but that missle went over my head

The longer you hide him and play stupid more of a legend he becomes, so own up and hand him over (if he still lives) to a neutral power so that he can be dealt with

[snakelegs]

Who knows, he might be sipping a cup of tea right now in the White House. That's why the Americans cannot "catch" him in Afghanistan.

this wouldn't shock me in the least.

[Redeemed]

I felt bin-laden just chose the wrong path for his actions. Its a pity that a peaceful religion, like ours, have been potrayed so wrongly in the media.

IF Al-qaeda was responsible for 9/11, then it begs the question of what benefits it brought to muslim?

I think that the Qur'an teaches peace only for Muslims. That is why bin laden chose this path, and that is why Christians are severely persecuted in other countries. The heroes are people that attacked the hijackers in filght 93 to bring their plane down and out of the control of terrorist.

[doorster]

I think that the Qur'an teaches peace only for Muslims. That is why bin laden chose this path, and that is why Christians are severely persecuted in other countries. The heroes are people that attacked the hijackers in filght 93 to bring their plane down and out of the control of terrorist.

get back to comparative forum before I forget the advice given to me by My Brother Woodrow

[Redeemed]

maybe it is a P5T type missile on its way to make a U turn and get you where you most need it? :)

peace!

:laugh: lol

[Redeemed]

get back to comparative forum before I forget the advice given to me by My Brother Woodrow

What advice was that? I know, "its none of my business"

[Redeemed]

If you really want to know what kind of missle it was that went over my head, you'll have to ask bin laden.

[Redeemed]

This is 100% correct.

This is a war of men not God.

Alquada is my enemy not Islam.

I hope Muslims see that men use religion as a tool to unite people for personal gains. We Christains leanered it the hard way... we did it ... and we know it is not the best idea.


I will not kill in the name of GOD.

If I have to I become a soldier of Faith ... I will stand united with a muslim , Jew, Hudu, any group of american idian, Aborigany, all good people from pole to pole as a soldier of Faith against satan. :cry: , and I will cry when it is over for both sides.

It will be clear to all men that this is the pitched battle.
2+2=4 no translation needed.

AB

Any thing or religion that pulls me away from Christ is my enemy, but Jesus said we should love our enemies.

[doorster]

Any thing or religion that pulls me away from Christ is my enemy, but Jesus said we should love our enemies

I beg you not to love me, por favor.

as you fake love is worse than poison for my hereafter, I'd rather you put me on your culling list here and now, than on "to convert" list. salam