Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

The Koran appears to suggest that Muslims should read the Books of the people who came before them - those people being Christians and Israelites. Since this information is contained in the Bible, are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

Regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

We would be if they still existed. There does seem to be some indication that at least parts of the Tauret and Zaboor still exist in todays OT. Those parts can be seen as having counterparts in the Qur'an.

The Injil is more difficult to find any evidence that it still exists in any form. The Injil would be the words revealed to Isa(as). The words Allah(swt) spoke to Isa(as) do not appear to have been preserved. So there is nothing we can fully identify as being the Injil.

In spite of this many Muslims do read the OT and the NT. I have yet to go into a Muslim home that does not have at least one version of the Bible. but, to be honest this is probably more common in english speaking house holds.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont have one. To me, I think it's better I spent time understanding the Qur'an before any other scripture. What Allah(swt) says holds more importance to me as a Muslim. So I would think its not an obligation. I mean if your a scholar, then yea why not. But as an ordinary Muslim just wanting to stick with Allah(swt) has ordained, the Qur'an is more in my focus.

[islamirama]

Hadith: Looking to Jews/Christians for answers instead of the Qur'an

Narrated Ubaidullah bin Abdullah bin Utba:

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

Sahi Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 850



You should not read the bible or other scriptures, especially if you don't know enough about your own book and religion to make distinction between false and truth. Those who have sufficient knowledge of their deen can read other scriptures for comparative analysis only, never for guidance or anything like that.

Allahu alim.

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[Woodrow]

Hadith: Looking to Jews/Christians for answers instead of the Qur'an

Narrated Ubaidullah bin Abdullah bin Utba:

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

Sahi Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 850



You should not read the bible or other scriptures, especially if you don't know enough about your own book and religion to make distinction between false and truth. Those who have sufficient knowledge of their deen can read other scriptures for comparative analysis only, never for guidance or anything like that.

Allahu alim.

That is very true. however in the Western world many if not most reverts were formerly either Christian or Jew and as a result are much more familiar with the Bible, than with the Qur'an. In turn it is almost essential for us to read the Bible and relate to Islamic Scriptures so that we can see where we are astray in our beliefs and learn to strengthen our weak areas. Also as reverts we have to answer many of those former teachings to our selves and totaly justify as to why we now accept the Qur'an over which we have already spent a life time learning.

But, if a person was raised as Muslim, has had little contact with Non_Islamic teachings and may not be expected to give Da'wah to non-Muslims it is best to give full attention to what you have and unless one is a scholar there would be little reason to venture into other beliefs.

[Umar001]

We have to believe that God sent books, we do not have to believe they have been preserved and have no reason to believe so. And even if they were they are not for us so no need to for us to derive rulings or beliefs from them.

[islamirama]

That is very true. however in the Western world many if not most reverts were formerly either Christian or Jew and as a result are much more familiar with the Bible, than with the Qur'an. In turn it is almost essential for us to read the Bible and relate to Islamic Scriptures so that we can see where we are astray in our beliefs and learn to strengthen our weak areas. Also as reverts we have to answer many of those former teachings to our selves and totaly justify as to why we now accept the Qur'an over which we have already spent a life time learning.

But, if a person was raised as Muslim, has had little contact with Non_Islamic teachings and may not be expected to give Da'wah to non-Muslims it is best to give full attention to what you have and unless one is a scholar there would be little reason to venture into other beliefs.

Read Ahmad Deedat's work, he was more bible scholar than Quran and he put many many bible scholars and preachers and what not to shame in debates.

You'll learn more about the scriptures from him then reading the book yourself.

[Woodrow]

Read Ahmad Deedat's work, he was more bible scholar than Quran and he put many many bible scholars and preachers and what not to shame in debates.

You'll learn more about the scriptures from him then reading the book yourself.

That is true.


Too late, as a former Christian I had memorized very much of the Bible. Now it is more like I need to use the Qur'an to undo erroneous beliefs I had and need to weed out the source of those beliefs. Old memories do not fade they need to be faced and corrected.

[Amadeus85]

Its interesting, you all claim that Bible has been changed through all those years and that nowadays' Bible isn't the same as the Bible that God gave to the prophets.So i have a question.Early christians, just after Jesus Christ death believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sins and after this He ressurected.This knowledge they must have taken from Bible, New Testament. Christians just after Christ death believe in His death and ressurection.Christians 1500 years ago believe in the same. Christians 1000 years ago believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.Christians in XVIth century believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.
Now in year 2007, i open my Bible and guess what, i read that Jesus Christ was killed on a cross, and then He ressurected.So if Bible has been changed through all those centuries, how is it possible that I believe in the same fundamental christian truth as did christians just after Christ's death and as did christians 1000 years ago?

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Please review my understanding of this matter.

1. The Koran notes that Christians and Jews who live in accordance with their Books will not go to hell.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Therefore further confirming that the Koran was referring to Books were available during that time.

Regards,
Grenville

[Amadeus85]

If Bible has been changed, so how is it possible that christians always(after His death, 1000 years ago,1500 years ago) believed in the same truths- that Jesus Christ was Son of God, that He died for our sins, that He was born from virgin Mary, that Noah built his arc,that Moses freed Israelis from egyptian slavery,thatfirst people were Adam and Eve, that David killed Goliath, that Loth's wife turned in salt statue,that Jacob predicted to egyptian pharaon his future,that God gave Moses 10 commandments....etc etc,.
If Bible has been changed so how is it possible that through all those centuries we christians always believe in the same truths,in year 2007, 1000 years ago, 2 000 years ago..?

[Umar001]

Hi Everyone:

Please review my understanding of this matter.

1. The Koran notes that Christians and Jews who live in accordance with their Books will not go to hell.

Well if you were to take the understanding based upon the Qur'an and the Sunnah and how the People Who it was preached to understood it then maybe you'd do more justice to the text.

The people of their time, the Jews of Moses' day to whom Moses was sent to are referred to, the Christians i.e. the Jews to whom Jesus was sent to are reffered to, the people of their time and place, the ones they were sent to.

To me and you and you, Muhammad is sent.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

Well actually we cannot be sure of that, but even if they were the life of Muhammad shows us that we need not follow those books.

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Therefore further confirming that the Koran was referring to Books were available during that time.

I have yet to see where the Qu'ran says study.

So i have a question.Early christians, just after Jesus Christ death believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sins and after this He ressurected.This knowledge they must have taken from Bible, New Testament. Christians just after Christ death believe in His death and ressurection.Christians 1500 years ago believe in the same. Christians 1000 years ago believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.Christians in XVIth century believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.
Now in year 2007, i open my Bible and guess what, i read that Jesus Christ was killed on a cross, and then He ressurected.So if Bible has been changed through all those centuries, how is it possible that I believe in the same fundamental christian truth as did christians just after Christ's death and as did christians 1000 years ago?

Well actually you are starting with a presumption. You presume that the followers of Jesus believed he died for their sins on the Cross.

There is no clear cut evidence that the actual followers believed that.

Theres much that could be said on this topic.

If Bible has been changed, so how is it possible that christians always(after His death, 1000 years ago,1500 years ago) believed in the same truths- that Jesus Christ was Son of God, that He died for our sins, that He was born from virgin Mary, that Noah built his arc,that Moses freed Israelis from egyptian slavery,thatfirst people were Adam and Eve, that David killed Goliath, that Loth's wife turned in salt statue,that Jacob predicted to egyptian pharaon his future,that God gave Moses 10 commandments....etc etc,.
If Bible has been changed so how is it possible that through all those centuries we christians always believe in the same truths,in year 2007, 1000 years ago, 2 000 years ago..?

Two points arise, your claim that the early Christians believed this, this in totality has yet to be established.

Secondly, most of the above stuff mentioned is contained in the Old testament, a text which had been present widely before the time of Christian, but in reality if we go back to before that what we see is that even with those stories there is some element of interpolation and the story is not as clear cut. For example the Ten Commandments that you have being given to Moses, peace be upon him, this is a whole topic within itself, there are many studied which speak on the Sources of the Torah, the E J D P I think it is, there is also the differences between text, the Measoric and Samaritan I believe they are called, on top of that there is the Talmud to speak of.

It is very detailed.

[vpb]

If Bible has been changed, so how is it possible that christians always(after His death, 1000 years ago,1500 years ago) believed in the same truths- that Jesus Christ was Son of God, that He died for our sins, that He was born from virgin Mary, that Noah built his arc,that Moses freed Israelis from egyptian slavery,thatfirst people were Adam and Eve, that David killed Goliath, that Loth's wife turned in salt statue,that Jacob predicted to egyptian pharaon his future,that God gave Moses 10 commandments....etc etc,.
If Bible has been changed so how is it possible that through all those centuries we christians always believe in the same truths,in year 2007, 1000 years ago, 2 000 years ago..?

the true message of bible (injil) was that Isa a.s was only a prophet and he called to worship one God without partners.

[islamirama]

Its interesting, you all claim that Bible has been changed through all those years and that nowadays' Bible isn't the same as the Bible that God gave to the prophets.So i have a question.Early christians, just after Jesus Christ death believe that Jesus died on a cross for our sins and after this He ressurected.This knowledge they must have taken from Bible, New Testament. Christians just after Christ death believe in His death and ressurection.Christians 1500 years ago believe in the same. Christians 1000 years ago believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.Christians in XVIth century believed in Christ's death for our sins and ressurection.
Now in year 2007, i open my Bible and guess what, i read that Jesus Christ was killed on a cross, and then He ressurected.So if Bible has been changed through all those centuries, how is it possible that I believe in the same fundamental christian truth as did christians just after Christ's death and as did christians 1000 years ago?

There were christians that followed hte Decipals and true teachings of Jesas a.s. and then there were christians that followed Paul and his trinity based religion. The true followers of Jesus moved east word and away from Paul's corruption. The onces left were those of paul's religion. These the christains of today that are in the west.

Gospel of Barnabas is more closer to the true teachings of Jesus a.s. then the bible.

http://www.barnabas.net/

Bible has been changed thru out history and continues to change even today. King Henry vised the bible to support his Kingship and obedience to King over the clergy, and also to allow divorce so he would dump his queen for another women. In more recent times, Germany is working on revising the bible this year to make it in simple english so everyone can understand it. AND they are taking out any anti-jew and anti-homo verses out of the bible. In a few years they'll revise it again and take out any references to anti-beastiality. Makes you wonder, at what point is the divine book not divine anymore?

[Woodrow]

If Bible has been changed so how is it possible that through all those centuries we christians always believe in the same truths,in year 2007, 1000 years ago, 2 000 years ago..?

there is no real evidence that all Early Christians did believe that. It seems to have become more of a belief after Paul and did not spread throughout all of Christianity. Most notably it was not the original belief of the Marconites, the followers of Christianity in the churches founded by Mark, until after interaction with Rome. It still is not the following of the sabians, the early Christians that were followers of John the Baptist and later carried Christianity into Iraq. It still is not their belief.

Most if not all of the Apostles went off and started churches, but as the teachings of Paul gained dominance their teachings were ruled gnostic and deleted from the early church.

[Amadeus85]

After Christ's death persecutions of christians began, christians were forced by romans to leave their faith and reject Christ, but so many of them didnt reject Him and stayed with christianity. So you think that people who weren't sure about their belief would give their life for that?
I know that Gospels of John,Luke, Mathew and Marc were written some time (30, 40, or 50 years) after Christ's death, but still its interesting that all 4 of them agree in most fundamental things for christians - that Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins and after that ressurected,and that He raised Lazarus from dead, that he gave sight to a blindman, that he multiplied food, that He walked on water..
How is it possible that people would give their lives for something that they are not sure? How is it possible that roman ancient historician, Tacitus, and also Joseph Flavius wrote about Christ' death on a cross and that many people believed that He ressurected?



Roman historian Tacitus in his work The Annals of Imperial Rome.

To suppress this rumour [that the massive fires of Rome had been deliberately set by men], Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus.



Suetonius, in his The Twelve Caesars says:

Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Crestus [a Latin reference to Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city.[11]


Roman historian Thallus (ca. 52 AD) as quoted by Julius Africanus concerning the darkness at the crucifixion, the Roman author and administrator Pliny the Younger's (ca. 112 AD) mention of the early Christians' worship of Christ, and historical references from the Roman Emperors Trajan and Hadrian.




The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34


In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been
corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend
Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon
differences and contradiction between the Bible and the
Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible
must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it
must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But
Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the
present text must have been falsified by the Christians after
the time of Muhammad."
His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts
but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to
safeguard the Quran.
This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed
Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as
argument against them.


Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been
corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New
Testament texts.

a. Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
b. Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
c. BUKHARI (810-870) " " " "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
d. Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " "
e. Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
f. AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
g. Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " "
(he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
teachers.)
h. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
"In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
i. Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
those Scriptures were generally known and widely
circulated, having been handed down from generation to
generation."

[Amadeus85]

So, to make your claim of tampering credible you will have to answer these questions:

# When happened this tampering? [Before or after Muhammad]?
# Who did the tampering?
# Where was it done? [city, country, ...?]
# What parts of the text were changed?
# How was it done [i.e. without leaving traces of it]?
# Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

The Qur'an calls on Christians to adhere to the Scriptures that they possessed. There are also verses in the Qur'an which state that John the Baptist and Jesus were taught the Torah by Allah. If this is the case, then the Torah was still intact (according to the Qur'an) during the first century. Add to this the fact that we have in our possession the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint which predate John and Jesus' birth by some 200 years. Thus it is easy to demonstrate (for anyone who is willing to examine the facts) that according to the Islamic worldview and the manuscript evidence, it is impossible for the Bible to have been corrupted.

[Umar001]

After Christ's death persecutions of christians began, christians were forced by romans to leave their faith and reject Christ, but so many of them didnt reject Him and stayed with christianity. So you think that people who weren't sure about their belief would give their life for that?

Well again if its true does this prove that the Bible is right? For example, the early followers of Jesus could have been persecuted for saying that Jesus went to heaven and was raised by God, this could mean that he was killed and raised i.e. christian belief now or the Muslim belief that he did not die at all, eitherway it poses a thread to the authorities.

But even so, a person giving his life up for a belief does not neccesitate that he is right, a person could truly believe and feel sure, but he could be sincerly wrong.

I know that Gospels of John,Luke, Mathew and Marc were written some time (30, 40, or 50 years) after Christ's death, but still its interesting that all 4 of them agree in most fundamental things for christians - that Jesus Christ died on a cross for our sins and after that ressurected,and that He raised Lazarus from dead, that he gave sight to a blindman, that he multiplied food, that He walked on water..

Well again this could be impressive, but when you take into account the compilation of the four Gospels, for example, let us take the SYPNOTIC I think they are reffered to, due to their similarity, you only have to research to find out that Mark was first written and that it is plausible that Matthew and Luke had a copy of mark and along this also had Source Q for Quelle, a common source which they used, so this would explain all the similarities.

What I find interesting though is that you claim they all agree but in reality the Gospel of John is in a league of it's own! And that is something that not I, Eesa, say but go and check what Christian scholars say and see if they agree.

But as for they all agreeing on the main things, again, this is not entirely true, for example, the Gospel according to Mark that we have now had no resurection story, the Gospel ended upbruptly, at where he said that the Women did not tell anyone anything, the story furthering on is a later addition. And noone knows what the real ending to Mark was. So mark isnt in agreement, he stops short of the glory of the resurection, but then we have three other Gospels, three other Gospels are not much, specially due to the fact that the Gospel Paul preached had been wide spread too so this would have influenced the writers, and it would have been illogical for the dominating congragation to enter in make famous Gospels which spoke of a different ending out of all the Gospels there.

What we do find interesting though is that even within the narratives about the resurection there are discrepencies.

How is it possible that people would give their lives for something that they are not sure?

A person can be sincerly wrong, they can believe till they are blue in the face, I am sure of Islam at the same time I am kind of sure someone else is sure of christianity, yet both of us would die for it.

How is it possible that roman ancient historician, Tacitus, and also Joseph Flavius wrote about Christ' death on a cross and that many people believed that He ressurected?

I have yet to see such writings, what I have seen is what seemed to be a later interpolation in the name of a Jewish Historian, Josephes or something, and I also saw a discription of what some christians believed someone resurected.

Regards,
Eesa

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

You have responded well. I had not considered that the Koran may have referred to the people who actually received the Books initially. I will investigate what you have written and will respond on Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

the problem lie in the fact that most chrisitan think that there is only one bible,,but there are loads of different bibles,with different content.

Where was the thread??

[Amadeus85]

Salaam,

the problem lie in the fact that most chrisitan think that there is only one bible,,but there are loads of different bibles,with different content.

Where was the thread??

If there are loads of different Bibles with different context so please tell me why all christians agree with all those fundamental truths and facts for christians like- crucifixion and ressurection of Jesus Christ, that He was a Son of God, that He died for our sins,that He was born from virgin Mary etc etc??

[Umar001]

Roman historian Tacitus in his work The Annals of Imperial Rome.

To suppress this rumour [that the massive fires of Rome had been deliberately set by men], Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilatus.


Suetonius, in his The Twelve Caesars says:

Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Crestus [a Latin reference to Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city.[11]

Even, even if I agree that the two statements are accurate and reliable, they constitute to nothing that is outside the norm, these people are discribing the view of some Christians and what happend to Jesus, which does not mean that this was the only view. What is obvious is that it became the main view and thus it would naturally most likely cause attention.

Roman historian Thallus (ca. 52 AD) as quoted by Julius Africanus concerning the darkness at the crucifixion, the Roman author and administrator Pliny the Younger's (ca. 112 AD) mention of the early Christians' worship of Christ, and historical references from the Roman Emperors Trajan and Hadrian.

Again this poses a similar stance to the above, but where is the quotation? And where are all the sources for these?

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34

What is the context? though I think you have made a mistake, the verse you ment was 10:65 not 10:34 :statisfie

Whilst I leave you to ponder over the context, I will provide an instance which someone who does not want to read the context and has pre concieved ideas can use:

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word,

"Oh this means the message of Jesus the Gospel, see not everyone can accept it!"

But if one reads the context 'tis word' is speakin about something here in particular.

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been
corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend
Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon
differences and contradiction between the Bible and the
Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible
must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it
must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But
Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the
present text must have been falsified by the Christians after
the time of Muhammad."
His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts
but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to
safeguard the Quran.
This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed
Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as
argument against them.


Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been
corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New
Testament texts.

a. Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
b. Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
c. BUKHARI (810-870) " " " "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
d. Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " "
e. Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
f. AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
g. Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " "
(he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
teachers.)
h. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
"In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
i. Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
those Scriptures were generally known and widely
circulated, having been handed down from generation to
generation."

We had a similar accusation, but where is you proof, what makes you seem like you are either misinformed or lying, and I choose to think the former, is that you claim Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said what he said, but if you read carefully, Ibn Abbas is reported to have said the total opposite of it! And that is recorded in Al Bukhari (which you put on the list even though he collected the narration of Ibn Abbas sayin the scripture is changed) Al Bukhari's book being the most reliable, and you do not even give any quotation/sources.

I leave you with Ibn Abbas' words:

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

Sahih Bukhari, Book 48, Number 850

Regards

[Zulkiflim]

If there are loads of different Bibles with different context so please tell me why all christians agree with all those fundamental truths and facts for christians like- crucifixion and ressurection of Jesus Christ, that He was a Son of God, that He died for our sins,that He was born from virgin Mary etc etc??

Heya

wow fundamental truth,i wonder why then should the church break up into so many denomination if the "differences are so slight"

Also do search google for UNITARIANS,,,they believe that god is ONE,not a trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

wish some one would post the thread again.It showed the entire list of different bibles in the world...

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

In Islam what ever goes against the Quran and Sunnah,no matter how slight is UNACCEPTABLE.

But for Christian,as long as the fundamentals are the same.
I guess that is why for them they accept the abomination of gay and lesbian
Eat pork and liquour and so on..
All slight differences...LOL..joke..

[Amadeus85]

Heya

wow fundamental truth,i wonder why then should the church break up into so many denomination if the "differences are so slight"

Also do search google for UNITARIANS,,,they believe that god is ONE,not a trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

wish some one would post the thread again.It showed the entire list of different bibles in the world...

If unitarians don't accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only saviour , they are not christians.

Yes the christian Church split into many denominations, but still all christians, catholics, orthodox, protestants agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that He died on a cross for our sins and ressurected, and that God is triunity-God The Father, God The Son and Holy Spirit.

And dont tell me about jehova witnesses or unitarians because they are simply not christians, just like baha'i, druzes or sikhs are not muslims.

[Amadeus85]

Salaam,

In Islam what ever goes against the Quran and Sunnah,no matter how slight is UNACCEPTABLE.

But for Christian,as long as the fundamentals are the same.
I guess that is why for them they accept the abomination of gay and lesbian
Eat pork and liquour and so on..
All slight differences...LOL..joke..

Only very very few christian churches agree with gay and lesbian abomination, they are minority among minority.And those churches who agree with homosexual marriages loose believers fast, just look what hapenned with Episcopal Church in USA, which lost many believers because they went to conservative denominations.

But still no one explained me, how is it possible, if there are so many Bible versions why all christians- catholics, orthodox and protestans agree that Jesus Christ was Son of God who came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected and that God is triunity- God The Father, God The Son,Holy Spirit.

[ScoobyGurl]

I have read the Bible but always in an academic context (Religious Studies major). I still have my Oxford Study Bible. I do look at it once in a while but it's always for comparative reasons. I think there are some wise quotes in the Bible but it doesn't guide my life. The Qur'an does that.

[Amadeus85]

Heya


wish some one would post the thread again.It showed the entire list of different bibles in the world...

That list only showed many translations of the Holy Bible, not versions.
I am sure that in every "version" of the Bible from that list is written that- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected.

You know lately i read that some muslim woman in USA made new translation of Quaran, where she removed and change all the verses that permitted wife beating, death penalty for apostasy, uneaquality between men and women.

And what, would you say now that there are two Quarans now? or two translations of Quaran?

The same thing is with all this list of so many Bible "versions"

[Amadeus85]

Salaam,


But for Christian,as long as the fundamentals are the same.
I guess that is why for them they accept the abomination of gay and lesbian
Eat pork and liquour and so on..
All slight differences...LOL..joke..

Ok ok and i know many muslim organizations (Muslim Brotherhood,Jamaat Islamiya,Hesbullah,Islamic Jihad from Palestine) which agree that violence and suicide bombings can be used to fight with the unbelievers.

[ScoobyGurl]

You know lately i read that some muslim woman in USA made new translation of Quaran, where she removed and change all the verses that permitted wife beating, death penalty for apostasy, uneaquality between men and women.

And what, would you say now that there are two Quarans now? or two translations of Quaran?

The same thing is with all this list of so many Bible "versions"

It's not the same. There are different translations of the Qur'an but there is only one Arabic version that was revealed to the Prophet (saws) and that is the source of various translations.

However, there are different versions of the Bible because different denominations accept different books of the Bible. A King James Bible does not have the same books as a Catholic Bible. Every Qur'an has the same number of chapters and verses.

Also, the books that accepted as canon have changed over the centuries. This is fact. Any Biblical scholar will tell you that the books that are in the Bible today do no encompass all the various scriptures that existed during early Christian history.

So I don't think there is really a comparison. Not trying to be argumentative. Just putting in my two cents.

[Umar001]

If unitarians don't accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only saviour , they are not christians.

Yes the christian Church split into many denominations, but still all christians, catholics, orthodox, protestants agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that He died on a cross for our sins and ressurected, and that God is triunity-God The Father, God The Son and Holy Spirit.

And dont tell me about jehova witnesses or unitarians because they are simply not christians, just like baha'i, druzes or sikhs are not muslims.

Well first you put for the condition, i.e. acceptance of Jesus as saviour and Son of God, then you said J.W. and Unitarians are not Christians, thus I assume you mean that they do not pass the condition, whilst in reality they claim they do.

Two things, 1. All christians believing in the same foundationals, what you are doing is taking a belief nd then saying anyone who does not believe it is not Christian, and then saying 'Look all christians believe these things' of course by your definition all christians do, because anyone who does not you claim is not Christian. But in reality, not all Christians believe Jesus is God, and you have no statement in the Bible that either clearly states he is, or that states that a person who does not believe in the Trinity is not Christian.

2. This faith, i.e. the common foundations shared by the majority of Christians maybe dominant now, but in the early days it may not have, in the early days there were different 'gospels' preached, just because they have dissapeared does not make them not true.


Another point, you stated And dont tell me about jehova witnesses or unitarians because they are simply not christians, just like baha'i, druzes or sikhs are not muslims.

That statement is false, you are claiming that the just like the Muslims claim Baha'i or others are not Muslims Christians claim that about J.Ws

Whilst in reality the Muslim can only claim someone is not Muslim with evidences from the scripture, so for example, if someone believes another messenger or prophet will come then this goes against the teachings of Islam so the person is not Muslim, it is clear cut. But what you as a Christian do is not this, you do not derive who is or who isnt from scripture, nowhere does it say 'If you do not belieeve in Jesus as God you are not Christian' nor is there a statement which produces the kind of evidence used by muslims to say Baha'is are non Muslim.

So please, do not liking things whilst in reality they are very different.

But still no one explained me, how is it possible, if there are so many Bible versions why all christians- catholics, orthodox and protestans agree that Jesus Christ was Son of God who came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected and that God is triunity- God The Father, God The Son,Holy Spirit.

Not all Christians agree to that, and you saying they are not Christian does not help unless you prove they are not from scripture. Furthermore, as I said before, the dominant faith now is all derived from a common foundation, i.e. the gospel Paul preached, but there were other 'gospels' just because they did not turn out dominant does not mean they are false.

That list only showed many translations of the Holy Bible, not versions.
I am sure that in every "version" of the Bible from that list is written that- Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected.

You know lately i read that some muslim woman in USA made new translation of Quaran, where she removed and change all the verses that permitted wife beating, death penalty for apostasy, uneaquality between men and women.

And what, would you say now that there are two Quarans now? or two translations of Quaran?

The same thing is with all this list of so many Bible "versions"

Well the Qu'ran is well know, and it has reached a stage now where it can never be logically falsified, and even before the situation around it made this impossible, so any attempt to bring a 'new' version of the Qu'ran would be impossible.

But with the Bible, this is different since from the start things were not so clear, what has happend now, is that there is restriction of the different version able to be made, due to the fact that the sources are known, i.e. the Manuscritps, but even the Manuscripts differ, and as seen before, with new found manuscripts the bible is revisioned.

Your attempt to mean translations by version is not right, since translations are basically substituing words, neither adding a word nor taking away rather keepin the word in meaning and expression, whereas versions are the adding or taking of verses and this is what the Bible has undergone, let me give you 1 example, you read the NIV? Turn to 1 John 5:6-8 it gives you a footnote, stating a different reading and then stating that this reading is not found in any manuscripts before 16th, then go to a KJV and you will find the reading in the footnote which has been taken out by the Scholars of the NIV due to reasons just given above, you will find the verse there in the KJV.

That is not translation, but rather version.

I have yet to recieved any sort of reply so I am not sure if you have read my replies but I hope you have.

Regards,

Eesa.

[Zulkiflim]

If unitarians don't accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only saviour , they are not christians.

Yes the christian Church split into many denominations, but still all christians, catholics, orthodox, protestants agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that He died on a cross for our sins and ressurected, and that God is triunity-God The Father, God The Son and Holy Spirit.

And dont tell me about jehova witnesses or unitarians because they are simply not christians, just like baha'i, druzes or sikhs are not muslims.

Salaam,,

Hmm funny isn't it.

You say the other ar not chrisitans,,,what if they say the smae abot you?

Would you accept it?

And bahai, sikh are not muslims,,,they worship other than Allah.
So it is not the same,they have their own book..

Also i thought druze is a race not religion.

[Zulkiflim]

Only very very few christian churches agree with gay and lesbian abomination, they are minority among minority.And those churches who agree with homosexual marriages loose believers fast, just look what hapenned with Episcopal Church in USA, which lost many believers because they went to conservative denominations.

But still no one explained me, how is it possible, if there are so many Bible versions why all christians- catholics, orthodox and protestans agree that Jesus Christ was Son of God who came to earth in human flesh, died on a cross for our sins and ressurected and that God is triunity- God The Father, God The Son,Holy Spirit.

Heya

Well i cna you fully that gay and lesban action are an abomintaion.

anyone who think otherwise but claim to be a muslim is blashemer.

You have chruches in the san francisco and even the catholic church safe guarding men who raps chidren.
they should be stoned to death..

It is not up to us to tell you why so many dnomination follow a set a rules.
But you also cannot tell us why so many denomination exist in christianity.

Is it a choose what you wish to follow religion?
Just like you are choosing your faith by the rules hat you like,and ignore those you dislike?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but can I please point out that the New Testament is NOT the book being referred to in the Quran that was given to Jesus (the injeel).

The injeel is the direct word of God.
The New Testament is a historical record written by men. Christians themselves recognise this.

The NT is not just some tampered with version of the injeel. The NT is just a book that has no authority by Islamic standards in the first place.

It is possible parts of the injeel might have been quoted in the NT, but their is no reference to this as far as we know.

The main point to take home: They are two totally different books!

Therefore trying to prove that the Quran is wrong by showing that the NT was never changed is baseless because the Quran is not talking about the NT in the first place.

Please see this link for more information:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=47516&ln=eng

[Umar001]

Yes

El's Holy Qur'aan Chapter Two , Verses One - Four ( Revealed in the year 624 - 626 A.D. ) Verse 266, 632 Revealed In Medina .
Verse 1 . Adam - the Shadow Hour of Power ; Muhammad the first and the last newsbearers , of the seed of Adam . Verse 2 . That Book is a scriptures no doubt about that ; inside of it there is leading calmness to those who tremble . Verse 3 . These are they who are faithful to what is unseen , and they get up to perform salutation as worship ; and of the things We, ([ We Not He ] Eloheem , Anunnaqi ) provided for them , they share willingly . Verse 4 . These are they who are faithful to that was send down to you ( Muhammad ) , And what was sent down before your time ; ( that is the other scriptures and tablets ) , and in Al Akhir - The End , they will certainly be prosperous .

Beliving something was sent from God does not mean believing that it was sent to you. You mix those two things up, you start with the presumption that it is true and then you bring any verse to back it up.

The verses you quoted only indicate that Muslims believe in what was sent before Muhammad, peace be upon him, meaning we believe that God did sent the Torah and Injeel, but this is not the same as saying we believe we have to read them and that they apply to us, no, the second part is a subdivision, i.e. what does the belief in them entail.

[shev]

Slm,
I'm an english teacher but because our religion teacher went to another city I have given religion lesson to 6th grade students.

I want to tell about an anecdote. Our subjects was holly books. and told students that we should be respectfull to all 4 books, because we believe in 4 of them but we don't read bible because we believe that it has been changed, but there may a word that hasn't been changed. So that word is God's word. And I also brought bible to class and we examine it together. We read a part about Christ (AS) curing a captian's servent. both in matta and Luka. and we saw that same event was told differently and that is enough for us to believe that it is not original. because a prophet will never say "I cured" as it is said in matta but he will say "he has been cured" as it is said in Luka but we are not sure which words in it are corect.
And one of my sts asked ma'm 'is it sin if we tear and jump on a bible'
and I asked ' would you like to see anyone tear and jump on Qur'an?' ' you don't have to believe in other people's holy things but you have to respect them if you want them to respect your holly things.'
he blushed and said he'll never do a such an action again.

regards

[AvarAllahNoor]

I don't see why people can't read books of other faiths. it will only enhance their knowlege in that religion.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Salaam,,

Hmm funny isn't it.

You say the other ar not chrisitans,,,what if they say the smae abot you?

Would you accept it?

And bahai, Sikh are not muslims,,,they worship other than Allah.So it is not the same,they have their own book..

.

Incorrect. We do worship Allah, Ram, Jehovah, God, as all names are used to reffer to the the one and same. Only lack of knowledge stands as a barrier between those that claim that God is not one. (And use names to separate)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:

^^Islam doesnt prohibit it I think. The difference is that reading the Qur'an holds more importance to us as Muslims because we are here striving to be the best Muslims and do our best to worship Allah Subhana wa ta'ala. So reading the Quran should come first before any other scripture.

:w:

[Amadeus85]

Salaam,,

Hmm funny isn't it.

You say the other ar not chrisitans,,,what if they say the smae abot you?

Would you accept it?

And bahai, sikh are not muslims,,,they worship other than Allah.
So it is not the same,they have their own book..

Also i thought druze is a race not religion.

No, it is not funny at all. Jesus Christ, God in human flesh came to earth 2 000 years ago. He was crucified to pay for our sins , so that those who believe in Him could be saved and go to paradise. He was killed and after ressurected. Those who believe in Him and His message are christians. Those who reject His divinity, like jeahova witnesses, are simply not christians. And do you know what mormons believe? Their theology is very different from catholic, orthodox and protestant belief. Mormons believe in material God, who had beggining and was born from other God. People according to mormons after death can gain God's attributes, so they are the same being with God, which can not be connect with christian belief. Mormonism was made in contrary to whole christianity, its prophet and creator Joseph Smith called all christian churches as contradict with christianity. And jeahova witnesses don't even call themselves christians, they call themselves jeahova witnesses and they believe just like muslims and jews that Jesus Christ wasn't Son of God.

[Balthasar21]

Beliving something was sent from God does not mean believing that it was sent to you. You mix those two things up, you start with the presumption that it is true and then you bring any verse to back it up.

The verses you quoted only indicate that Muslims believe in what was sent before Muhammad, peace be upon him, meaning we believe that God did sent the Torah and Injeel, but this is not the same as saying we believe we have to read them and that they apply to us, no, the second part is a subdivision, i.e. what does the belief in them entail.

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

[Umar001]

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

Enlighten me, show me where I've been going wrong.

All I have been saying is that there's a verse saying believe in something, and I am saying that we should look into what type of belief it is talking about.

If I say I believe God sent a book, this statement does not indicate whether I believe the book has been changed or not, so further clarification I go to the rest of the Qu'ran and the statements of the Prophet.

Don't you think we should refer and get the meanings from the Qu'ran itself and the Prophet?

[Balthasar21]

Enlighten me, show me where I've been going wrong.

All I have been saying is that there's a verse saying believe in something, and I am saying that we should look into what type of belief it is talking about.

If I say I believe God sent a book, this statement does not indicate whether I believe the book has been changed or not, so further clarification I go to the rest of the Qu'ran and the statements of the Prophet.

Don't you think we should refer and get the meanings from the Qu'ran itself and the Prophet?

According to the Quraan Allahu Subhaanahu Wa Ta'Ala telling you to also read the scriptures that came Before the Quraan , I'm not saying anything Allahu Subhaanahu Wa Ta'Ala saying this .

[Balthasar21]

No, it is not funny at all. Jesus Christ, God in human flesh came to earth 2 000 years ago. He was crucified to pay for our sins , so that those who believe in Him could be saved and go to paradise. He was killed and after ressurected. Those who believe in Him and His message are christians. Those who reject His divinity, like jeahova witnesses, are simply not christians. And do you know what mormons believe? Their theology is very different from catholic, orthodox and protestant belief. Mormons believe in material God, who had beggining and was born from other God. People according to mormons after death can gain God's attributes, so they are the same being with God, which can not be connect with christian belief. Mormonism was made in contrary to whole christianity, its prophet and creator Joseph Smith called all christian churches as contradict with christianity. And jeahova witnesses don't even call themselves christians, they call themselves jeahova witnesses and they believe just like muslims and jews that Jesus Christ wasn't Son of God.

OverStand Something ok about the trinity ok !

There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .

[Umar001]

According to the Quraan Allahu Subhaanahu Wa Ta'Ala telling you to also read the scriptures that came Before the Quraan , I'm not saying anything Allahu Subhaanahu Wa Ta'Ala saying this .

Well show us so we can read, you still yet to show me how you understand the statement believe to mean believe they are unchanged and should be read.

[Amadeus85]

OverStand Something ok about the trinity ok !

There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .

You dont have to understand the concept of trinity. Im sure that you dont understand molecular chemistry or organic chemistry, but it doesnt mean that molecular chemistry or organic chemistry is wrong.
I didnt make up the concept of trinity.In Bible Jesus Christ calls himself Son of God, he talks with His Father and we see the existence of Holy Spirit. It is said in Bible so i believe it, you dont have to.

BTW when Jesus Christ said that He came from The Father it means that He came in human flesh on earth 2 000 years ago.

[Balthasar21]

Well show us so we can read, you still yet to show me how you understand the statement believe to mean believe they are unchanged and should be read.

I have given you two or more verse but for some reason you don't want accept it , With all do respect I'm not here to make you believe anything you can accept what the Quraan saying or you can believe whatever you wish . Your playing on words doesn't change what the scriptures are saying . Let not forget Islam is only 1400 years old , So are you saying Allah just made up is mind to sent the Quraan 1400 years go . Let be real here .

[Balthasar21]

You dont have to understand the concept of trinity. Im sure that you dont understand molecular chemistry or organic chemistry, but it doesnt mean that molecular chemistry or organic chemistry is wrong.
I didnt make up the concept of trinity.In Bible Jesus Christ calls himself Son of God, he talks with His Father and we see the existence of Holy Spirit. It is said in Bible so i believe it, you dont have to.

BTW when Jesus Christ said that He came from The Father it means that He came in human flesh on earth 2 000 years ago.

So your saying Jesus is God and he talks to himself Yes .

[Zulkiflim]

No, it is not funny at all. Jesus Christ, God in human flesh came to earth 2 000 years ago. He was crucified to pay for our sins , so that those who believe in Him could be saved and go to paradise. He was killed and after ressurected. Those who believe in Him and His message are christians. Those who reject His divinity, like jeahova witnesses, are simply not christians. And do you know what mormons believe? Their theology is very different from catholic, orthodox and protestant belief. Mormons believe in material God, who had beggining and was born from other God. People according to mormons after death can gain God's attributes, so they are the same being with God, which can not be connect with christian belief. Mormonism was made in contrary to whole christianity, its prophet and creator Joseph Smith called all christian churches as contradict with christianity. And jeahova witnesses don't even call themselves christians, they call themselves jeahova witnesses and they believe just like muslims and jews that Jesus Christ wasn't Son of God.

Salaam,

You have written the answer for your own question.

The only problem is you see it as an answer while other who read it sees it as a problem.

You say they are,they say you are not.

In Islam it is simple..
Quran is ONE
Allah is ONE.
Ummah is ONE.

If you worship other than Allah you are not a muslim.
If you say the Propeht Muhammad saw is not the seal of the Propeht then you are not a muslim.
If you worship creation instead of the Creator then you are not a muslim.
If you worship idols then you are not a muslim.


So it is ismple in Islam,while you are basing your faith on why the "majority" follow a set of rules.
In Islam it aint about majority.

It is about pureness.
That is why the Quran is UNCHAGED.
A miracle of Miracles.

[Amadeus85]

Salaam,

You have written the answer for your own question.

The only problem is you see it as an answer while other who read it sees it as a problem.

You say they are,they say you are not.

In Islam it is simple..
Quran is ONE
Allah is ONE.
Ummah is ONE.

If you worship other than Allah you are not a muslim.
If you say the Propeht Muhammad saw is not the seal of the Propeht then you are not a muslim.
If you worship creation instead of the Creator then you are not a muslim.
If you worship idols then you are not a muslim.


So it is ismple in Islam,while you are basing your faith on why the "majority" follow a set of rules.
In Islam it aint about majority.

It is about pureness.
That is why the Quran is UNCHAGED.
A miracle of Miracles.

In christianity it is also very simple, you have to believe in Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation and God in human flesh and believe in Bible as the only holy book. Thats it. If you dont do it , you are not a christian. Thats why neither jeahovas witnesses nor mormons are christians.

[Umar001]

I have given you two or more verse but for some reason you don't want accept it , With all do respect I'm not here to make you believe anything you can accept what the Quraan saying or you can believe whatever you wish . Your playing on words doesn't change what the scriptures are saying . Let not forget Islam is only 1400 years old , So are you saying Allah just made up is mind to sent the Quraan 1400 years go . Let be real here .

1. What verses. If you mean:

With all do respect sound like you want to pick and choose what you want to believe . But we can agree to disagree but I rather let the scriptures tell us what The Most High saying .

El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Verse 2 . The Source , Allah is He ( He Not We ) who no Illaaha ( Allahs ) 'Sources ' would exist , except by way of Him ( Hu - The Force Of Creative Will ) . He is Al Hayyu ' The Everliving , Al Qayuwm '' The Subsisting . Verse 3. He ( He Not We ) Nazala 'Sent Down on you , ( Muhammad ) Al Kitaab '' The Scriptures ( Qur'aan ) Bi -Al Haqq '' With The Facts ( beyond any doubt ) , Musaddiqaan ' Confirming what is between Yadayhi ''His Hands ' ,( These are the scriptures before the Quraan ) ; and Anzala ' He Sent Down Al Tawraat '' The Torah and Al Injiy 'The Evangel ( send down the Injiyl but gave it to Yashu's / Isa ) Verse

4 . ( The other scriptures ) are Hudaa 'Calmness ' from before ( Quraan ) , for Al Naas ''The Enosites , ( the Children of Israel and the Torah ) ; And Anzala 'He Sent Down Al Furqaan ' The Differentiation . Surely , those who conceal what they know to be the facts , about Allah's Ayyaat 'Verses ' ( which are all His scriptures ) ; for them there will be a pain that is Shadiyd ' Forceful , and The Source Allah has the might , for He ( He Not We ) is the Aziyz '' Mighty of the Intiqaam ' Avenger .

Verse 5 . Surely , nothing in Al Samaa-i 'the Heavenly Skies , ( The Firmaments ) or the 'Planet Earth is Yakhfaa 'Hidden from The Source , Allah .

Then I find that very hard to read, like: El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Al Holy Qu'ran then chapter 89 which is surah fajr? In the original order? Well I dont know what it is in the original order I rather keep it how the Prophet and companions kept it. you quote, Alif Adam Laam? I dont have a clue where it ever says Alif Adam Laam, and then Laytul Qadri and then Miym Muhammad..

The above is confusing to say the least so if thats what you mean then maybe you could be abit more clear for me please.

2. All I asked was for clarity, just because you cant show it does not mean that I am twisting words, I have asked believe in the scripture in what way.

3. So are you saying Allah just made up is mind to sent the Quraan 1400 years go . << I dont understand what you mean.

In christianity it is also very simple, you have to believe in Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation and God in human flesh and believe in Bible as the only holy book. Thats it. If you dont do it , you are not a christian. Thats why neither jeahovas witnesses nor mormons are christians.

You keep saying God in human flesh but you havent shown anywhere where the Bible makes that a condition for accepting Jesus, what you fail to see is that on the grounds of your scripture you have yet to show they are not Christians.

[Balthasar21]

1. What verses. If you mean:



Then I find that very hard to read, like: El Holy Qur'aan Chapter 89 , Verse 1 -5 ( Original order 89 ) Revealed In The Year 625 - 627 A.D. And I Quote ;Alif ; Adam -Laam ; Laytul Qadri , 'The Shadow Hour of Power ; Miym ; Muhammad ( the first and the last of the ones sent , of The Seed Of Adam ) .

Al Holy Qu'ran then chapter 89 which is surah fajr? In the original order? Well I dont know what it is in the original order I rather keep it how the Prophet and companions kept it. you quote, Alif Adam Laam? I dont have a clue where it ever says Alif Adam Laam, and then Laytul Qadri and then Miym Muhammad..

The above is confusing to say the least so if thats what you mean then maybe you could be abit more clear for me please.

2. All I asked was for clarity, just because you cant show it does not mean that I am twisting words, I have asked believe in the scripture in what way.

3. So are you saying Allah just made up is mind to sent the Quraan 1400 years go . << I dont understand what you mean.



You keep saying God in human flesh but you havent shown anywhere where the Bible makes that a condition for accepting Jesus, what you fail to see is that on the grounds of your scripture you have yet to show they are not Christians.

Lakum Diinukum Wa Li Ya Diin

[Umar001]

Wa Iyyak

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

This thread has been busy over the weekend. I have reviewed your comments and respond as follows.

1. Christians going to Heaven

The Koran explains that its purpose was to point people to a relationship with God. The example of this relationship is Abraham’s friendship with God. Note:

4:125 - Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.

Christians also have this relationship with God. This is acknowledged in the Koran.

3:113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

Now, there were many religious leaders who Mohammed was very angry with. They distorted what was written down. Mohammed challenged them to bring the Books and read from them.

3:78 - There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

3:93 - All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

7:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study these Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians.

So the issue was not about the accuracy or availability of the Books, but the misinterpretation. Muslims are not encouraged to listen to such people.

3:100 - O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!

However, they are instructed to read the Books for themselves and even request assistance if they need it.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

7:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Howdy Grenville

1. How would you reconcile your belief with statements in the Qur'an like:

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islām, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (Aali Imran 3:85)

2. How about 2;79 which was explained also by the explainer of the Quran Ibn Abbas;

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

Sahih Bukhari, Book 48, Number 850

3. I cant find some quotes like 7:89-90, what translation are you using? As for the rest of the stuff, then like surah 6, all it mentions is that a book the Qur'an has come to them, the arabs lest they should give escuses llike it was only given to the Jews and Christians and we did not know their language or stuff, read the verses

And this is a blessed Book (the Qur'ān) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allāh (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. saved from the torment of Hell). (Al-An'am 6:155)

Lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "The Book was only sent down to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied." (Al-An'am 6:156)

Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'ān) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. (part of the next verse)

So it is clear, Allah is saying that the book has come down to them lest they says stuff like 'Oh it was given to the Jews and Christians but not us' or 'If a book was given to us we would have done better' no, Allah has given them the proof and now they should act.

That's all nothing about learning Gospel or Torah.

The 10:94 tells Muhammad to ask them about what Allah has revealed, this can be things which although the bible had changed were still in their books,

Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurāt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) 7:157 part of the verse.

So this is one of the things that Allah allowed to be still unchanged, now someone asks, well look this shows they have not changed, well no, since we have statements that they have changed and then a statement pertaining to one case, we can come to the conclusion that they have changed except for some cases where the truth is there and these places are not clear, but God knows and pointed this particular place out. THis accomodates both statements and also is historically plausible and logically plausable since retaining the description of Muhammad is evidence against those who disbelieve.

This is only a brief statement, I have been writing other stuff and replyin to other matters I will post in more detail at a later day, God willing, if you wish then please reply and post comments to save me from writing a longer answer if there are other points to also be adressed.

Regards,

Eesa

[Balthasar21]

Where did the Qur'aan get its teaching from ? Please no side steping the question .

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

In response.

1. Christians in Heaven

3:85 actually says: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

Therefore Christians also surrender to the God of Abraham.

2. Books not Corrupted

2:78-79 actually says - Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

These are clearly wicked men who along with people described in 3:78 are not a part of the Christians described in 3:113-115.

3. Muslims to study previous Books

My mistake. It was actually 6:89-91 and not 7:89-91.

It shows that the scriptures were available to read and copy during Mohammed’s time.

Regarding your interpretation of 6:157, I think that the Book given to Moses in 6:156 is the same Book referred to in 6:156 and 157 which Muslims should be acquainted with. 6:156 may be critical in understanding 6:157.

6:156 - Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study”.

Regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

In response.

1. Christians in Heaven

3:85 actually says: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

Therefore Christians also surrender to the God of Abraham.

Where are you getting your translations from, they are amazing.

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islām as your religion.

pretty simple, so whoever choses other than Islam is doomed.

2. Books not Corrupted

2:78-79 actually says - Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

These are clearly wicked men who along with people described in 3:78 are not a part of the Christians described in 3:113-115.

Yes, it does say that and you have seen what it means, Muhammad's disciple actually told the people, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

It is pretty clear, people write the book with their own hands, so we have a party that does that, and now we have also the bible contradicting the QUran so what is the conclusion? That that party obviously outwon the other.


It is pretty clear if we approach this without bias, taking the Quran and the Hadith and the way it was understood by Muhammad and his companions, but if we want to come 1400+ years later and say 'no no.....' then that can be done with anything, but it has no solid basis for it.

i will reply to the rest as I need to read about it.

But if we are here to impose our own understanding then anyone can do that, but we should take the quran as a whole, with its meaning, not add our own meaning and if we do then we should prove why its superior or true.

Eesa.

[Umar001]

Where did the Qur'aan get its teaching from ? Please no side steping the question .

The Qur'an is the word of God, God didnt take the teaching from another source. But rather God was the source. I believe.

[Balthasar21]

Wa Iyyak

Question; How well do you think you know the Bible / Quraan ?

[Balthasar21]

The Qur'an is the word of God, God didnt take the teaching from another source. But rather God was the source. I believe.

Is this your FINAL answer Yes or No ?

[جوري]

Is this some sort of cliff hanger? are you about to drop a bomb?

[Balthasar21]

Is this some sort of cliff hanger? are you about to drop a bomb?

I'm about to take him to school meaning EDUCATE him ? Then we can put this playing on words to Rest :)

[جوري]

fascinating.. I am sure it will prove interesting... though I always believe in any art (including the art of debate) one mustn't underestimate the intelligence of their opponent---

peace!

[Balthasar21]

fascinating.. I am sure it will prove interesting... though I always believe in any art (including the art of debate) one mustn't underestimate the intelligence of their opponent---

peace!

Very true very true :)

[Balthasar21]

The Qur'an is the word of God, God didnt take the teaching from another source. But rather God was the source. I believe.

( Don't Believe Me . Check It Out ! )


Any reader of The Qur'aan that is familiar with the old testament , Or the new testament , Discovers that the names and events of the books and prophets have been definitely copied in The Qur'aan . I will now prove that the muslims teaching / language was copied from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them .

Yet . They will argue with anyone and try to convince people that Islam and its scriptures , The Quraan is Authentic . When in fact , I can give you serveral Words and Customs That was taken from from The Old Testament The Five Books Of Moses , / other cultures that predated them . For example , the ceremony of The Circumcision ( Genesis 17;10 ) .

The concept of a holy day called Sabbath ( Genesis 2 ; 2 -3 ) , And called Jum'ah ( Qur'aan , Chapter 62 ) by the muslims . The concept of a Turbaan or Prayer Cap , Which the muslims call a Kuffa , Came from The Jewish Yamala or Yarmulke . The concept of the muslim Kalimat Tawhiyd ( Qur'aan 47;19 ) . Was taken from the jews Shama Yishrael '' Hear Oh Israel '' ( Dueteronmoy 6 ; 4 and 4 ; 35 ) .

Where they took their Kalimat , Laa Ilaaha Illa Allah ( Qur'aan 47 ; 19 ) . And this was carried over to Christianity ( Mark 12 ; 29 ) . And that's where muslims borrowed it from . The took the concept of Fasting from the jews ( Nehemiah 9 ; 1 ) , The concept of Alms Giving ( Qur'aan 4 ; 162 ) , Their concept of making Hajj ( Ezra 3 ; 4 , 6 ; 22 ) .

What most muslims don't even know is that their whole concept of The Pilgrimage to their holy temple , A Cube shaped building ( Ka'aba ) in Mecca , Which they call The Hajj , And the person who completes The Pilgrimage is called A Hajji , Is a word duplicated from the name of Prophet Haggai and the festive Khag or Hag ( Exodus 12 ; 14 ) ,

This is when the children of Israel in The Book Of Ezra made a pilgrimage out of babylonian captivity , To return to the holy land back to the Temple of Solomon , The Holy of Holies , The most sacred building on earth to them . It's the exact same story , Even the same titles ; The took the concept of wearing The Ihraam from the jews ,

Who took it from The Ancient Egyptian practice of Priest of Amun-Ra , The concept of the story of Nimrod ( Qur'aan 2 ; 258 ) Was copied from The Jewish Narrative of The Mishnah from the Midrash Rabba Chapter 17 , The concept of wearing The Face Veil , Khimaar ( Genesis 24 ; 65 ) And wearing sweet smelling Oils Qituwrah meaning '' Sweet Fragrance

'' From Qehtoret And burning incense ( Exodus 30 ; 7 , 23 , 34 ) ; And they also took words like Sawkar meaning '' Strong Drink '' From the hebrews , And changed it to Sakhtaan meaning Drink '' The House 'Bayt of lord ( Qur'aan 106 ; 3 ) , Taken from hebrew Beth , The word Rabb, Meaning '' Master or Sustainer '' From Rabb , The word Jannah , From the aramic / hebrew Gan ,

The word Sama'a or Samaawaati , From aramic / hebrew '' Shamayim '' Meaning The Skies , '' The word Ard . Taken from the Aramic / Hebrew Ehrets , Meaning The Earth , Land , '' Baad , From The aramic / hebrew Bawb , Meaning '' Door , Aba , From the aramic / hebrew word Ab , Meaning Father, '' Malak , From the aramic / hebrew Melek , Meaning '' King or Ruler ,

'' Yad From the aramic / hebrew word Yawd , Meaning '' Hand '' , Amiyn , Amen , '' Mu'minun , Mu'minaati , El Mu'min Etc , One of Allahs attributes ( 6th ) was taken from the aramic / hebrew Awmane , Meaning '' To Have Faith , '' El Bariyu , The 12th Attribute , Meaning '' The Fashioner '' From the aramic / hebrew

'' Bara , Meaning '' To Replenish '' Al Musawwiru , The Fashioner , From the aramic / hebrew Tsawr Meaning '' To Make '' All of the Attributes of arabic was stolen from hebrew , Including Salaam , Islaam , Muslim All came from the Aramic / Hebrew word Shalom meaning '' Peace ,

[Umar001]

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

EDIT: Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

[Balthasar21]

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

With all do respect the above post does show where the Quraan was copied from , It also show why Muslims and Christians should read the Bible and Qur'aan to get a better overstanding of their Holy Books . Again I mean no disrespect here

[Balthasar21]

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

EDIT: Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

Can you please show me how my post anti Islamic other then you disagreeing with it .

[Umar001]

With all do respect the above post does show where the Quraan was copied from , It also show why Muslims and Christians should read the Bible and Qur'aan to get a better overstanding of their Holy Books . Again I mean no disrespect here

Let's say I agree that the above shows that the Qur'an was copied, then it still doesnt show that according to the Islamic faith Muslim are obligated to read the Bible. It might show the Qur'an is not what it claims, but it doesnt show that the Qur'an or Muhammad told Muslims to read the Bible. And that is the point of the thread.

Can you please show me how my post anti Islamic other then you disagreeing with it .

Well I asked if it was from an anti-Islamic site. I asked because I read something similar on one of them when I had just become Muslim.

[Balthasar21]

Let's say I agree that the above shows that the Qur'an was copied, then it still doesnt show that according to the Islamic faith Muslim are obligated to read the Bible. It might show the Qur'an is not what it claims, but it doesnt show that the Qur'an or Muhammad told Muslims to read the Bible. And that is the point of the thread.



Well I asked if it was from an anti-Islamic site. I asked because I read something similar on one of them when I had just become Muslim.

I have shown you in my other post where it tell muslim to read the Scriptures before the Quraan , And you didn't accept them that why I said < Lakum - Diinukum - Wa - Li - Ya - Diin - Meaning '' You will have your decision , And I will have mine . .. Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible . But one thing is forsure if you had read the bible you would have know where your teaching come from '' Yes ''

If muslims and christians don't read each other holy books , How will they be able to overstand each other scriptures , Or speak about them , You can't speak about anything you haven't study / read True ? Overstand something just because some one doesn't agree does - not make them Anti-Anything . Meaning Anti - Christian / Muslims Etc , Etc .
It simply means I disagree no more no less .

[Umar001]

I have shown you in my other post where it tell muslim to read the Scriptures before the Quraan , And you didn't accept them that why I said < Lakum - Diinukum - Wa - Li - Ya - Diin - Meaning '' You will have your decision , And I will have mine . .. Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible .

Obviously you do not know me.

I try to follow and understand things, simply posing a verse which can be interpreted in a way which can accomodate both theories does not make one right or the other, rather supportiving evidence for each theory should be given.

For those who know me I do speak and I do change my mind if someone brings forth evidences, I remember a discussion on here about the view of Jesus being violent or not and posing forth theories with why they are right.

All I asked is that if someone brings and understanding forward with a verse and if that verse can accomodate more than one theory then supportive evidence should be brought as to why the theory is right.

But one thing is forsure if you had read the bible you would have know where your teaching come from '' Yes ''

If a Muslim reads the Bible in context I think they'd be more sure than ever that the Qur'an is from God.

If muslims and christians don't read each other holy books , How will they be able to overstand each other scriptures , Or speak about them , You can't speak about anything you haven't study / read True ? Overstand something just because some one doesn't agree does - not make them Anti-Anything . Meaning Anti - Christian / Muslims Etc , Etc .
It simply means I disagree no more no less .

That's be beauty a Muslim or Christian needs not to understand each other's scripture unless one is doing a study.

By the way the question still stands,

Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

Regards Eesa

[Walter]

Where are you getting your translations from, they are amazing.


Eesa.

Hi Al Habeshi:

I use 3 translations of the Koran for study; however, when quoting in this forum, I normally just cut and paste from the following site:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

They also have three translations: Yusuf Ali’s, Marmaduke Mohammad Pickthall’s, and M. H. Shakir’s.

Please therefore instruct me if there are more acceptable on-line translations.

Therefore the evidence remains that principal act is submission to God and not following an Islamic tradition. Christians submit to God and follow a Christian tradition.

Regards,
Grenville

[Balthasar21]

Obviously you do not know me.

I try to follow and understand things, simply posing a verse which can be interpreted in a way which can accomodate both theories does not make one right or the other, rather supportiving evidence for each theory should be given.

For those who know me I do speak and I do change my mind if someone brings forth evidences, I remember a discussion on here about the view of Jesus being violent or not and posing forth theories with why they are right.

All I asked is that if someone brings and understanding forward with a verse and if that verse can accomodate more than one theory then supportive evidence should be brought as to why the theory is right.



If a Muslim reads the Bible in context I think they'd be more sure than ever that the Qur'an is from God.



That's be beauty a Muslim or Christian needs not to understand each other's scripture unless one is doing a study.

By the way the question still stands,

Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

Regards Eesa

What make you feel I should know or want to know you , Did I miss something here . I Though this was a discussion nothing more .


( That's be beauty a Muslim or Christian needs not to understand each other's scripture unless one is doing a study. ) <> Now this is real funny you thinking you can speak for all muslims . I Know many muslim who read the Bible .


Your problem is you interpreted things the way you want them to be and not how they are . I gave you my answer on that anti -sillyness . And I Stand By It .

Let's let the people who read the above question de-side if Christians / Muslims should read the Bible / Qur'aan because your not qualify , Anyway enough time have been wasted answering your post , Your looking for some to agree with you .

By the way if you're strong in your Faith / Belief's why are you worrying about what those anti-Website say . Trying to lebel someone because they don't agree with you is kinda childlish don't you think !

[Balthasar21]

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

EDIT: Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

By the way everytime I try to start a new thread/ post I'm told it have to be check out by the Administrators / Moderators first .

[جوري]

I have shown you in my other post where it tell muslim to read the Scriptures before the Quraan , And you didn't accept them that why I said < Lakum - Diinukum - Wa - Li - Ya - Diin - Meaning '' You will have your decision , And I will have mine . .. .

"Lakoum deenakoum wlya deen", doesn't denote to you, your decision and to me mine!-- perhaps making the grave mistake of mistranslating as such, would lead you to believe other erroneous "facts" ?
To know Arabic, is to know that the Quran stands apart from other scriptures--linguistically, stylistically, rhythmically, sequentially -- and in many aspects, contents that aren't in even mentioned in the previous scriptures-- an impossibility to have come from other than a divine source...

peace

[جوري]

Addendum

Dictionaries -

القواميس

Arabic - English

دِين اســــــــــــم دِيَانَة , مُعْتَقَد , مَذْهَب

and so

دِين

means the following:
credo , conviction , faith , tenet , rite , creed , religion

and not decision!

peace!

[Balthasar21]

Addendum

Dictionaries -

القواميس

Arabic - English

دِين اســــــــــــم دِيَانَة , مُعْتَقَد , مَذْهَب

and so means the following:
credo , conviction , faith , tenet , rite , creed , religion

and not decision!

peace!

One question ok How many DIALECT of Arabic are they , Are all them spell in the same way ?

[Umar001]

What make you feel I should know or want to know you , Did I miss something here . I Though this was a discussion nothing more .

In a discussion it might be good to know of the characteristics of a person if those characteristics are in a way related to the discussion. You stated:

Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible .

So I said that you do not know me, since if you did then you'd know that I try to keep as open minded as possible. I'm not saying you need to know what my favouraite snack is.

( That's be beauty a Muslim or Christian needs not to understand each other's scripture unless one is doing a study. ) <> Now this is real funny you thinking you can speak for all muslims . I Know many muslim who read the Bible .

Are you confused, did you see me saying that I speak for all Muslims or that I said ALL Muslims dont read the BIble?

As I said in my opinion Muslims or Christians DO NOT NEED, key word being need, to read each other's book, unless they are doing a study, maybe thats what your friends are doing.

Your problem is you interpreted things the way you want them to be and not how they are .

What are you on about, I asked you what does something mean and you still havent shown evidence why you hold the meaning for that.

Are you telling me that when someone says believe in something it does not say how to believe in it, i.e. whether it is changed or not whether it is good or not, rather we have to look for the context and meaning?

I gave you my answer on that anti -sillyness . And I Stand By It .

All you said was:

Can you please show me how my post anti Islamic other then you disagreeing with it .

Did I ask you if it was anti Islamic or pro islamic or factual or fictional, I am asking where you got it from, you have not answered. Is it that hard?

Let's let the people who read the above question de-side if Christians / Muslims should read the Bible / Qur'aan because your not qualify , Anyway enough time have been wasted answering your post , Your looking for some to agree with you .

Can't prove nothing so you cop out, you havent show nothing, you bring similarities and then say its proof.

By the way if you're strong in your Faith / Belief's why are you worrying about what those anti-Website say . Trying to lebel someone because they don't agree with you is kinda childlish don't you think !

I didn't say anyone was anything did I? I asked if that was where you got it from, thats all, don't be worried.

As for why do I worry about what sites say, because many others do not know and actually think they have proof against Islam and then dont learn about it, kind of like, they quote a verse, and then chose their own interpretation with no reason to back that up.

If you'd want to show your integrety you could just:

1. Show your evidence, quote it if you have already written it, for believing that the Qur'an says the Bible aint changed and where it says read it.

2. Just simply, yes or no answer as to whether you copied it from an anti islamic site, i.e. your 'proof' about the sources of Islam.

3. Engage in a 'presumption' free discussion with me about whether what you posted constitutes as proof of copying and whether the Qur'an was copied.

That's all.

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

I use 3 translations of the Koran for study; however, when quoting in this forum, I normally just cut and paste from the following site:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

They also have three translations: Yusuf Ali’s, Marmaduke Mohammad Pickthall’s, and M. H. Shakir’s.

Please therefore instruct me if there are more acceptable on-line translations.

Therefore the evidence remains that principal act is submission to God and not following an Islamic tradition. Christians submit to God and follow a Christian tradition.

Regards,
Grenville

If it was submission it would have been the world for submission right?

Furthermore Submission to Allah would mean to follow the Qur'an since it is what Allah has revealed, in the Qur'an we are told to follow the prophet, then this shows we follow him, so we dont just leave what he gave us.

And which one of those three had this:

3:85 actually says: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

[جوري]

One question ok How many DIALECT of Arabic are they , Are all them spell in the same way ?

what does dialect have to do with anything? -- if I use "gonna" in American English, would it still deter from it meaning "going to"? the language of the Quran is not a dialect.. it is the most proper Arabic -- get any linguist to confirm that for you.. the Arabic of the Quran, is neither Moroccan, nor Egyptian nor Saudi-Arabian.. It is Arabic as Arabic should be!
The phrase that you have used is from the Quran, and thus, there can be no room for error over which dialect, or the whimsy of a different interpretation. it is what I have posted. I speak Arabic, do you?

peace!

[Balthasar21]

In a discussion it might be good to know of the characteristics of a person if those characteristics are in a way related to the discussion. You stated:

Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible .

So I said that you do not know me, since if you did then you'd know that I try to keep as open minded as possible. I'm not saying you need to know what my favouraite snack is.




Are you confused, did you see me saying that I speak for all Muslims or that I said ALL Muslims dont read the BIble?

As I said in my opinion Muslims or Christians DO NOT NEED, key word being need, to read each other's book, unless they are doing a study, maybe thats what your friends are doing.




What are you on about, I asked you what does something mean and you still havent shown evidence why you hold the meaning for that.

Are you telling me that when someone says believe in something it does not say how to believe in it, i.e. whether it is changed or not whether it is good or not, rather we have to look for the context and meaning?




All you said was:

Can you please show me how my post anti Islamic other then you disagreeing with it .

Did I ask you if it was anti Islamic or pro islamic or factual or fictional, I am asking where you got it from, you have not answered. Is it that hard?



Can't prove nothing so you cop out, you havent show nothing, you bring similarities and then say its proof.



I didn't say anyone was anything did I? I asked if that was where you got it from, thats all, don't be worried.

As for why do I worry about what sites say, because many others do not know and actually think they have proof against Islam and then dont learn about it, kind of like, they quote a verse, and then chose their own interpretation with no reason to back that up.

If you'd want to show your integrety you could just:

1. Show your evidence, quote it if you have already written it, for believing that the Qur'an says the Bible aint changed and where it says read it.

2. Just simply, yes or no answer as to whether you copied it from an anti islamic site, i.e. your 'proof' about the sources of Islam.

3. Engage in a 'presumption' free discussion with me about whether what you posted constitutes as proof of copying and whether the Qur'an was copied.

That's all.

Relax you sound up set take a chill pill ok , If anyone confused here is you , The diffrent between you and I , You need belief / faith / believe I deal in fact's . When one has to believe that mean He / She doesn't know only believe , And you don't KNOW you only believe you know something . I see why you P.M. telling me why post need approval your lock into the zone / box and can't deal with people answer / question because it doesn't fall in line with your belief's system . You can't be that caught up in yourself to think I care if you read the bible or not . Anti-Website LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You couldn't come up with nothing better then That LOLOLOLOLOL

[Balthasar21]

In a discussion it might be good to know of the characteristics of a person if those characteristics are in a way related to the discussion. You stated:

Obviously you have your mind made up about the Bible .

So I said that you do not know me, since if you did then you'd know that I try to keep as open minded as possible. I'm not saying you need to know what my favouraite snack is.




Are you confused, did you see me saying that I speak for all Muslims or that I said ALL Muslims dont read the BIble?

As I said in my opinion Muslims or Christians DO NOT NEED, key word being need, to read each other's book, unless they are doing a study, maybe thats what your friends are doing.




What are you on about, I asked you what does something mean and you still havent shown evidence why you hold the meaning for that.

Are you telling me that when someone says believe in something it does not say how to believe in it, i.e. whether it is changed or not whether it is good or not, rather we have to look for the context and meaning?




All you said was:

Can you please show me how my post anti Islamic other then you disagreeing with it .

Did I ask you if it was anti Islamic or pro islamic or factual or fictional, I am asking where you got it from, you have not answered. Is it that hard?



Can't prove nothing so you cop out, you havent show nothing, you bring similarities and then say its proof.



I didn't say anyone was anything did I? I asked if that was where you got it from, thats all, don't be worried.

As for why do I worry about what sites say, because many others do not know and actually think they have proof against Islam and then dont learn about it, kind of like, they quote a verse, and then chose their own interpretation with no reason to back that up.

If you'd want to show your integrety you could just:

1. Show your evidence, quote it if you have already written it, for believing that the Qur'an says the Bible aint changed and where it says read it.

2. Just simply, yes or no answer as to whether you copied it from an anti islamic site, i.e. your 'proof' about the sources of Islam.

3. Engage in a 'presumption' free discussion with me about whether what you posted constitutes as proof of copying and whether the Qur'an was copied.

That's all.

If their any reson why muslims should read the bible etc etc . it because of you . And that's not an insult

[جوري]

I am not following your soliloquy here with bros Al Habashi -- but I'd say you have perfectly described yourself here and projected ... your knowledge of Islam is superficial, your grip on Arabic is laughable-- and your comments in general are pedantic---
if you couldn't post here, why are we seeing and reading your barrage of tasteless insults to other members?

Everyone needs to get their topics approved in this section, Muslim or not.. Many of my posts aren't chosen or approved for the day.. some even make it to the recycling bin I am not grieved by it!... there is really no reason to highlight your paranoia...

peace!

[Umar001]

Relax you sound up set take a chill pill ok , If anyone confused here is you , The diffrent between you and I , You need belief / faith / believe I deal in fact's . When one has to believe that mean He / She doesn't know only believe , And you don't KNOW you only believe you know something . I see why you P.M. telling me why post need approval your lock into the zone / box and can't deal with people answer / question because it doesn't fall in line with your belief's system . You can't be that caught up in yourself to think I care if you read the bible or not . Anti-Website LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You couldn't come up with nothing better then That LOLOLOLOLOL

See what you are actually doing is avoiding answering, as for the pm, I pm'd you out of curtosy to explain the situation, the type of threads which we have had is people challenging and insulting others.

You see, you have only proved yourself to be lacking in integrety and stacture, the smart man is the one who is able to say 'I do not know' not neccesarily the one who avoids questions and proclaims 'LOLOLOLOLOLOL' without having answered.

If their any reson why muslims should read the bible etc etc . it because of you . And that's not an insult

Your lack of ability to answer coherently results in you posting such things. You see, if only you would be able to stand up and provide truth for your claims.

You brushed off my question about the source with the continious side steps and LOLOLs. Then claimed: You couldn't come up with nothing better then That You obviously missed my challenge to you to open a thread and ask me about that in there, I openly proclaimed that. I quote:

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

EDIT: Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

You've yet to take that up. You are showing yourself to lack integrety, manners, certain knowledge and maturity.

With regards to your statement:

I see why you P.M. telling me why post need approval your lock into the zone / box and can't deal with people answer / question because it doesn't fall in line with your belief's system .

This shows your immaturity and lack of knowledge, let me refer you to some threads which have been approved and are actually posing questions and refuting Muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post744736

Is a refutation to a claim that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. Has it been deleted? Is it locked? No, does it agree with the muslim here, no. Well.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...iptures-6.html

This thread too is flowing with people trying to refute some Muslim statements.

I mean it is clear to anyone who comes here, ask the non Muslims? You know what is interesting, some of the more 'zealous' Muslims actually get angry at us for letting some non Muslims speak too freely lol.

Regards,

Eesa.

P.S. If I do ever want to silence you, I will, and I will tell anyone here, the reasons for me doing so would be justified.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

I quoted from Marmaduke Mohammad Pickthall’s translation. Did you not access the link that I provided?

3:85 - And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

As I previously mentioned, Christians submit to God and follow a Christian tradition. However, we must all to graduate from our traditions to develop a personal relationship with God.

Regards,
Grenville

p.s. Why do these threads attract extraneous banter?

[Balthasar21]

See what you are actually doing is avoiding answering, as for the pm, I pm'd you out of curtosy to explain the situation, the type of threads which we have had is people challenging and insulting others.

You see, you have only proved yourself to be lacking in integrety and stacture, the smart man is the one who is able to say 'I do not know' not neccesarily the one who avoids questions and proclaims 'LOLOLOLOLOLOL' without having answered.



Your lack of ability to answer coherently results in you posting such things. You see, if only you would be able to stand up and provide truth for your claims.

You brushed off my question about the source with the continious side steps and LOLOLs. Then claimed: You couldn't come up with nothing better then That You obviously missed my challenge to you to open a thread and ask me about that in there, I openly proclaimed that. I quote:



You've yet to take that up. You are showing yourself to lack integrety, manners, certain knowledge and maturity.

With regards to your statement:

I see why you P.M. telling me why post need approval your lock into the zone / box and can't deal with people answer / question because it doesn't fall in line with your belief's system .

This shows your immaturity and lack of knowledge, let me refer you to some threads which have been approved and are actually posing questions and refuting Muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post744736

Is a refutation to a claim that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible. Has it been deleted? Is it locked? No, does it agree with the muslim here, no. Well.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...iptures-6.html

This thread too is flowing with people trying to refute some Muslim statements.

I mean it is clear to anyone who comes here, ask the non Muslims? You know what is interesting, some of the more 'zealous' Muslims actually get angry at us for letting some non Muslims speak too freely lol.

Regards,

Eesa.

P.S. If I do ever want to silence you, I will, and I will tell anyone here, the reasons for me doing so would be justified.

First you can never silence me you can banned me that's about it . And the only reson you would banned me is because you can deal with what I post and you know this , Anyone other then those who agree with you know I have answer your question . You think because your Moderators you can insult people and get away with it . If your looking for me to tell you what you want to hear when your wrong you might as well forget it . All this because I wouldn't agree with you , You ought to be a shame to call yourself a muslims .


Here A CHALLENGE / QUESTION for you and you can get anyone you want to help you to answer the question ok. Post this question ok being your Moderator it shouldn't be a problem right .


Question ; Are Muslims another sect of Christians ?
None of your fast talking ok we're going to let the scriptures teach ok .
No more of your Sermon / Testimony Etc Etc , You speak of immaturity Yes . Let see if you take the CHALLENGE / QUESTION .

[Balthasar21]

I am not following your soliloquy here with bros Al Habashi -- but I'd say you have perfectly described yourself here and projected ... your knowledge of Islam is superficial, your grip on Arabic is laughable-- and your comments in general are pedantic---
if you couldn't post here, why are we seeing and reading your barrage of tasteless insults to other members?

Everyone needs to get their topics approved in this section, Muslim or not.. Many of my posts aren't chosen or approved for the day.. some even make it to the recycling bin I am not grieved by it!... there is really no reason to highlight your paranoia...

peace!

Maybe you can help habashi out being you agree with him it cool . maybe we can stop some of this back and forward sillyness .

[Umar001]

First you can never silence me you can banned me that's about it . And the only reson you would banned me is because you can deal with what I post and you know this , Anyone other then those who agree with you know I have answer your question .

You can think that if it makes you feel good, I don't mind at all. The proof is in the pudding as the British say. If you have answered again just quote the links that is all, and I will reply, and ask, if you dont like people asking you stuff then maybe a discussion board isnt the best places.

You think because your Moderators you can insult people and get away with it .

Come on, I haven't insulted you. If I have I apologise but I dont think I have ever.

If your looking for me to tell you what you want to hear when your wrong you might as well forget it . All this because I wouldn't agree with you , You ought to be a shame to call yourself a muslims

All this is because you did not bring proof, you stated your theory and I just wondered why, and when I asked, you seemed to get annoyed, or something. and started LOLOLOLin and so forth. Many here do not agree with me, ask Grace Seeker a Christian, he knows it, me and him debate things all the time, I never deleted his post nor ever silenced him.

Here A CHALLENGE / QUESTION for you and you can get anyone you want to help you to answer the question ok. Post this question ok being your Moderator it shouldn't be a problem right.

Question ; Are Muslims another sect of Christians ?
None of your fast talking ok we're going to let the scriptures teach ok .
No more of your Sermon / Testimony Etc Etc , You speak of immaturity Yes . Let see if you take the CHALLENGE / QUESTION .

Why do you want to move onto another thing whilst not resolved the first things.

For example, you still want to discuss your Theory that the Qur'an copied from the Bible? And there is still the question of whether you got the info from the Anti Islamic site? And also there is still the back up for your theory about your understanding of 'believe' within the context.

Are they another sect of Christianity, I do not think so if we are speaking in the conventional term.

Care to answer the three points now?

Eesa

[MustafaMc]

Hi Everyone:

Please review my understanding of this matter.

1. The Koran notes that Christians and Jews who live in accordance with their Books will not go to hell.

2. Those Books that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today.

3. The Koran encourages Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Therefore further confirming that the Koran was referring to Books were available during that time.

Regards,
Grenville

Please, be so kind as to provide surah (chapter) and ayat (verse) where this is stated.

[MustafaMc]

That is true.


Too late, as a former Christian I had memorized very much of the Bible. Now it is more like I need to use the Qur'an to undo erroneous beliefs I had and need to weed out the source of those beliefs. Old memories do not fade they need to be faced and corrected.

I have read the Bible as a Christian and both the Bible and the Quran as a Muslim. I don't see a need to read the Bible to undo former beliefs and I certainly don't read it for guidance. In the Bible, I now look for both the glaring errors and the glimmers of truth that I can use to communicate the Message of Islam to Christians. I get much more insight from reading the Quran as a Muslim than I ever did from the Bible as a Christian.

[MustafaMc]

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34

Quran 6:34 Many Rasools before you were denied but patiently bore with their denial and persecution until Our help came down to them: for none can change the decrees of Allah. You have already received the news of what happened to those Rasools. Decree - an authoritative order having legal force. Other translations of this ayat say decisions, promises, words.

Quran 10:34 Ask them: "Can any of your shoraka' (the deities you worship besides Allah) create anything and then repeat its process?" If they do not answer, then tell them: "Well, Allah creates and then repeats the process. Then how is that you are so misled?" How is this relevant to your point?

In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been
corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend
Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem come upon
differences and contradiction between the Bible and the
Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible
must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it
must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But
Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the
present text must have been falsified by the Christians after
the time of Muhammad."
His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts
but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to
safeguard the Quran.
This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed
Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as
argument against them.

No, actually, the Quran does - Quran 2:78-79 Among them there are some illiterates who do not know their Holy Book; they follow their own desires and do nothing but conjecture. Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: "This is from Allah," so that they may sell it for a petty price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they have earned.

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been
corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New
Testament texts.

a. Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
b. Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
c. BUKHARI (810-870) " " " "
(he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam
quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text
of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)

Quran 3:72 Some of the People of the Book say to one another: "Believe in what is revealed to the believers (Muslims) in the morning and deny it in the evening; so that they (the Muslims) may follow suit and abandon their faith. This does not prove your point. This is a warning against "People of the Book" such as yourself that try to lead Muslims astray.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah. Again this is showing the deception and lies by People of the Book regarding the "Word of Allah".

d. Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " "
e. Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
f. AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " "
(probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-
Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
g. Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " "
(he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his
teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic
teachers.)
h. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College
"In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that
corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
i. Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew
of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were
suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil;
but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it
was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because
those Scriptures were generally known and widely
circulated, having been handed down from generation to
generation."

How is any of this relevant to your point. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran, "So study the Bible and seek guidance from it." That is because it ain't there. Unless you can find an ayat that I have overlooked, stop making this false claim!

[Balthasar21]

You can think that if it makes you feel good, I don't mind at all. The proof is in the pudding as the British say. If you have answered again just quote the links that is all, and I will reply, and ask, if you dont like people asking you stuff then maybe a discussion board isnt the best places.



Come on, I haven't insulted you. If I have I apologise but I dont think I have ever.




All this is because you did not bring proof, you stated your theory and I just wondered why, and when I asked, you seemed to get annoyed, or something. and started LOLOLOLin and so forth. Many here do not agree with me, ask Grace Seeker a Christian, he knows it, me and him debate things all the time, I never deleted his post nor ever silenced him.




Why do you want to move onto another thing whilst not resolved the first things.

For example, you still want to discuss your Theory that the Qur'an copied from the Bible? And there is still the question of whether you got the info from the Anti Islamic site? And also there is still the back up for your theory about your understanding of 'believe' within the context.

Are they another sect of Christianity, I do not think so if we are speaking in the conventional term.

Care to answer the three points now?

Eesa

Now this is the deal ok I have given you VERSE where it tell muslims to read the scriptures before the Quraan , Now if you can't overstand that the scriptures were El's Torah / El's Holy Injiyl Etc , Then that's on you , I also have use these same scriptures to prove where your teaching came verse by verse again you find it hard to accepted because you can't deal with the truth , So you try to flip things by asking if I got my information from some anti-websites to change the subject ,

Then you threaten to silence me but what what your really mean you would banned me , What it boil down to is you can let it go . Meaning you can't agree to disagree . All your little Sermons / Testimony about who you debated / discuss with before I came to the forum really mean nothing other then they disagree with you too those who did so what .

What so funny is the verse that I gave you showing that the Quraan was copy from the Torah Were written before the Quraan , And they so happen to be in the Quraan , Yet you're still deny it . LOLOLOL now that deep . Now those who have been follow this post know what I'm saying in true . Any Christian or muslims who can read can see the compairson , If they take the blinder off . That's why I said in one of the above post if Christian or muslims would read the Bible and Quraan themselves and not let people like you try to force their belief's on them , That wouldN'T have to use words like I BELIEVE THIS OR THAT , All they have to give chapter and verse and say this is what your God saying .


Now unless you're going to threaten to silence / banned me again , or keep saying I'm geting my information from some anti-website to change the subject at hand . I will show why Christian and muslims should read the Bible and Quraan that's if your not afraid . Those muslims who will agree will those who wont will not .

[جوري]

Maybe you can help habashi out being you agree with him it cool . maybe we can stop some of this back and forward sillyness .

You are on your own-- while at it, work on your vocabulary, grammar, Quranic Knowledge,, (Arabic), and people skills

Peace!

[Balthasar21]

You are on your own-- while at it, work on your vocabulary, grammar, Quranic Knowledge,, (Arabic), and people skills

Peace!

Ahhhhhhhh man

[Umar001]

Now this is the deal ok I have given you VERSE where it tell muslims to read the scriptures before the Quraan , Now if you can't overstand that the scriptures were El's Torah / El's Holy Injiyl Etc , Then that's on you , I also have use these same scriptures to prove where your teaching came verse by verse again you find it hard to accepted because you can't deal with the truth , So you try to flip things by asking if I got my information from some anti-websites to change the subject ,

If I had said 'I will not answer it because you copied it from such and such a place' that would be me coppin out. But I said I will answer you in another thread, I just aked where it came from, which you cant seem to reply, I wonder what that indicates.

As for your verses I asked you for the last couple of posts to please quote them to me, your posts, so that I can read the verses. You say you have given me the verse where it says Muslims read the Qur'an but if you look I have been asking you to show me, because I have not seen that post.

Then you threaten to silence me but what what your really mean you would banned me , What it boil down to is you can let it go . Meaning you can't agree to disagree . All your little Sermons / Testimony about who you debated / discuss with before I came to the forum really mean nothing other then they disagree with you too those who did so what .

I can agree to disagree but why do so if your so convienced, I have asked to discuss it but you keep moving from the subject. I asked three simple points, you write replies about knowing me and threats that I have given and so forth but not those points, pretty amazing.

What so funny is the verse that I gave you showing that the Quraan was copy from the Torah Were written before the Quraan , And they so happen to be in the Quraan , Yet you're still deny it .

You have not even heard why I deny it yet you laugh, that is a sign of lack of understanding, it might just be that I deny it because of reasons unknown to you, but no, its ok, if you wanna think your right, dont take up my point of making a new thread to skool me as you put it, you talk and talk yet cant do simple actions, now that is what is deep.

Now those who have been follow this post know what I'm saying in true . Any Christian or muslims who can read can see the compairson , If they take the blinder off . That's why I said in one of the above post if Christian or muslims would read the Bible and Quraan themselves and not let people like you try to force their belief's on them , That wouldN'T have to use words like I BELIEVE THIS OR THAT , All they have to give chapter and verse and say this is what your God saying .

All I have argued from the start is for people to read in context, to analyse their theories and beliefs, including myself! But you feel this is forcing beliefs on others? Who would have known putting things in context and establishing proofs are bad things. Maybe you just want to blindly belief if that's your point of view that you just belief in anything thats ok.

Now unless you're going to threaten to silence / banned me again , or keep saying I'm geting my information from some anti-website to change the subject at hand . I will show why Christian and muslims should read the Bible and Quraan that's if your not afraid . Those muslims who will agree will those who wont will not .

I have been asking you to show it for the last God knows how long, lol, I didnt instigate the thread, I told you if I wanted I could, but as most people here know I have never done so, and many of them have put forth better arguements than a couple of similarities.

Please show where I said that you got your information from an anti islamic website.

keep saying I'm geting my information from some anti-website to change the subject at hand .

Now please provide the quote.

I have never used it to change the subject, look:

Would you like another thread to school me in, since this is pertaining to the whether we as Muslims are obliged to raed the bible.

You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

Deal?

EDIT: Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

Thats the original challenge, I told you, You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

I had to repeat and repeat,

By the way the question still stands,

Another question, is that from an anti Islamic website? I'd love to know.

Regards Eesa

Well I asked if it was from an anti-Islamic site. I asked because I read something similar on one of them when I had just become Muslim.

Notice I asked, not stated that it came from one. Amazingly you havent ever answered if it did, neither a yes nor a no.

:)

Eesa.

[Balthasar21]

If I had said 'I will not answer it because you copied it from such and such a place' that would be me coppin out. But I said I will answer you in another thread, I just aked where it came from, which you cant seem to reply, I wonder what that indicates.

As for your verses I asked you for the last couple of posts to please quote them to me, your posts, so that I can read the verses. You say you have given me the verse where it says Muslims read the Qur'an but if you look I have been asking you to show me, because I have not seen that post.



I can agree to disagree but why do so if your so convienced, I have asked to discuss it but you keep moving from the subject. I asked three simple points, you write replies about knowing me and threats that I have given and so forth but not those points, pretty amazing.



You have not even heard why I deny it yet you laugh, that is a sign of lack of understanding, it might just be that I deny it because of reasons unknown to you, but no, its ok, if you wanna think your right, dont take up my point of making a new thread to skool me as you put it, you talk and talk yet cant do simple actions, now that is what is deep.



All I have argued from the start is for people to read in context, to analyse their theories and beliefs, including myself! But you feel this is forcing beliefs on others? Who would have known putting things in context and establishing proofs are bad things. Maybe you just want to blindly belief if that's your point of view that you just belief in anything thats ok.




I have been asking you to show it for the last God knows how long, lol, I didnt instigate the thread, I told you if I wanted I could, but as most people here know I have never done so, and many of them have put forth better arguements than a couple of similarities.

Please show where I said that you got your information from an anti islamic website.



Now please provide the quote.

I have never used it to change the subject, look:



Thats the original challenge, I told you, You can school me on whether the Qur'an was copied from the Bible, in a thread entitled 'I am schooling Eesa about the Qur'an'

I had to repeat and repeat,





Notice I asked, not stated that it came from one. Amazingly you havent ever answered if it did, neither a yes nor a no.

:)

Eesa.

Go back to the beginning and read the post if your interested , I'm not changeing anything , Later for your stalling game . You can ether agree / disagree .

I'm going to answer the post Is Islam a continuation of Christianity?
Those who will agree will agree , those who disagree and have knowldge of the Bible and Quraan can try and disprove what I'm saying by useing chapter / verse later for this sillyness . Now if you can't deal with the truth / facts remove the post .

[NoName55]

Now this is the deal ok I have given you VERSE where it tell muslims to read the scriptures before the Quraan , Now if you can't overstand that the scriptures were El's Torah / El's Holy Injiyl Etc , Then that's on you , I also have use these same scriptures to prove where your teaching came verse by verse again you find it hard to accepted because you can't deal with the truth , So you try to flip things by asking if I got my information from some anti-websites to change the subject ,

Then you threaten to silence me but what what your really mean you would banned me , What it boil down to is you can let it go . Meaning you can't agree to disagree . All your little Sermons / Testimony about who you debated / discuss with before I came to the forum really mean nothing other then they disagree with you too those who did so what .

What so funny is the verse that I gave you showing that the Quraan was copy from the Torah Were written before the Quraan , And they so happen to be in the Quraan , Yet you're still deny it . LOLOLOL now that deep . Now those who have been follow this post know what I'm saying in true . Any Christian or muslims who can read can see the compairson , If they take the blinder off . That's why I said in one of the above post if Christian or muslims would read the Bible and Quraan themselves and not let people like you try to force their belief's on them , That wouldN'T have to use words like I BELIEVE THIS OR THAT , All they have to give chapter and verse and say this is what your God saying .


Now unless you're going to threaten to silence / banned me again , or keep saying I'm geting my information from some anti-website to change the subject at hand . I will show why Christian and muslims should read the Bible and Quraan that's if your not afraid . Those muslims who will agree will those who wont will not .

Since Torah was given to Kaleemullah Hazrat Musa AlaiSalaam By The Creator of this universe, why would it not concur with or be similar to Quraan since that is also kalamullah?

BTW If you dont mind me asking;are you an Iranian Jew or Shia? or have I got it wrong and you are a trouble making copt?

[Umar001]

Please, I think a thread will be made soon 'schooling' me about the source of the Qur'an, lets leave alternative theories to that thread.

Eesa

[NoName55]

"alternative theories"?

And there was me believing that Allah Ta'ala is the source for both the Torah and Qura'an

[Walter]

Hi MustafaMc:

You wanted me to provide you with verses that showed where the Koran encouraged Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Please see the following verses.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing. Here is another verse.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well. Here is another verse.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Best regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi All:

I apologise for the two spelling errors in my last post: "ignorant" and "Muslims". Unfortunately I am not able to edit my posts.

Regards,
Grenville

[Balthasar21]

Since Torah was given to Kaleemullah Hazrat Musa AlaiSalaam By The Creator of this universe, why would it not concur with or be similar to Quraan since that is also kalamullah?

BTW If you dont mind me asking;are you an Iranian Jew or Shia? or have I got it wrong and you are a trouble making copt?

Why do SOME muslims resort to name calling and throwing temper tantrums instead of discussing the facts ?

I think you should ask al habeshi because he claim it didn't happen
To answer your question No ... Anyway there no such thing as a Jew .

[Umar001]

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing. Here is another verse.

That is not true. If God says to you, believe that I have created a two headed being which is hidden on Mars, do you have to see it or investigate it? No.

A perfect example is the claim of the Bible, if you are a Christian Jesus is reported to have said

blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

If God tells us believe that he sent a book then we don't have to have the book there for us to believe that He sent it.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well.

Well it say This is a Book and then it says follow IT, not them, I dont see where you can derive follow them and believe them, plural.

And the verse is clear, it is giving the Arabs the book lest they should say 'oh a book wasnt given to us' and make them escuses.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

So the passage is talking about Muhammad being in doubt as to what was given to him, it is talking here about a specific matter, being in doubt about what God revealed, ask the people about this.

None of those verses state to learn, read, or claim the preservation of the Bible.

[NoName55]

Why do SOME muslims resort to name calling and throwing temper tantrums instead of discussing the facts ?

I think you should ask al habeshi because he claim it didn't happen
To answer your question No ... Anyway there no such thing as a Jew .

al habeshi is forthright and upfront about his convictions so I don't need to ask who he is, all I need to know is that he is my brother in Islaam as well as brother in humanity.

on the other hand argumentative liars who don't declare themselves and make false claim after claim, I have no time for and I would much rather have them removed for sake of peace and devote more time to those who actually do want to compare and learn for whatever purpose

[Balthasar21]

Firsa

Hi MustafaMc:

You wanted me to provide you with verses that showed where the Koran encouraged Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Please see the following verses.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing. Here is another verse.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well. Here is another verse.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Best regards,
Grenville

First let me say I love conformation , And thank you very much , I try to tell
al habeshi ... But he try to flip the script , Like the El's Holy Quraan Say ; 17 ; 81 , And I Quote And tell them this ,( Muhammad ) ; The facts ( BEYOND ANY DOUBT ) HAVE COME AND FALSE WAYS WERE TO VANISH . SURELY , THE FALSE WAYS WERE TO VANISH IN TIME .

Truth Always Find Away :thumbs_up

[Balthasar21]

That is not true. If God says to you, believe that I have created a two headed being which is hidden on Mars, do you have to see it or investigate it? No.

A perfect example is the claim of the Bible, if you are a Christian Jesus is reported to have said

blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

If God tells us believe that he sent a book then we don't have to have the book there for us to believe that He sent it.



Well it say This is a Book and then it says follow IT, not them, I dont see where you can derive follow them and believe them, plural.

And the verse is clear, it is giving the Arabs the book lest they should say 'oh a book wasnt given to us' and make them escuses.




So the passage is talking about Muhammad being in doubt as to what was given to him, it is talking here about a specific matter, being in doubt about what God revealed, ask the people about this.

None of those verses state to learn, read, or claim the preservation of the Bible.

Still trying to flip the script this is sad

[Umar001]

Still here though can't reply to simple questions?

[Balthasar21]

Please, I think a thread will be made soon 'schooling' me about the source of the Qur'an, lets leave alternative theories to that thread.

Eesa

Once the truth starts coming their no stoping it . I told you in my post everyone doesn't agree with you even some muslim . Shame on you trying to Hide the truth .

[NoName55]

Once the truth starts coming their no stoping it . I told you in my post everyone doesn't agree with you even some muslim . Shame on you trying to Hide the truth .

Listen here!

There is no need for us to read the older Scripture for all we need to know has been sent to us again in form of Qura'an

Shame on you trying to Hide the truth

I think the shame is all yours for trying to re-invent the truth and being such a pest and pain in in the neck

[Umar001]

Once the truth starts coming their no stoping it . I told you in my post everyone doesn't agree with you even some muslim . Shame on you trying to Hide the truth .

You still have not shown any actions towards the points, truth is clear for everyone, you finding it hard to answer and having this chit chat makes it even clearer.

All the post you have made you could have proved your 'truth' yet you talk about hiding things and laugh about questions without answering them.

Still waiting on the thread.

They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).

[Balthasar21]

al habeshi is forthright and upfront about his convictions so I don't need to ask who he is, all I need to know is that he is my brother in Islaam as well as brother in humanity.

on the other hand argumentative liars who don't declare themselves and make false claim after claim, I have no time for and I would much rather have them removed for sake of peace and devote more time to those who actually do want to compare and learn for whatever purpose

That because your both cut from the same cloth trying to keep the truth Hidden . You or him can't change what have been written already no matter how hard you both try to hide the truth . You should read Quraan 17 ; 81

[Umar001]

I don't claim to have the whole truth and to posses everything in my mind.

All I ask for is evidences. When someone claims a word means something, then I ask how did you derive to such a conclusion. And if I hold a position I except the same to be done of me.

I do not see how in any way that is hiding truth. Rather to me that seems to be something useful to uncover the truth. But I guess some might not want that.

[Balthasar21]

You still have not shown any actions towards the points, truth is clear for everyone, you finding it hard to answer and having this chit chat makes it even clearer.

All the post you have made you could have proved your 'truth' yet you talk about hiding things and laugh about questions without answering them.

Still waiting on the thread.

They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).

Only fool duck when the truth is throw at them . I laugh because you really think keyword think your slik but your not . LOLOLOLOLOLOL By the way the truth I have given at the beginning of my post HAVE BEEN shown in the above post so it matter not what you believe or accept LOLOLOLOLOLOL . Twist the words of the quraan like you being doing not working is - it .

[Umar001]

Okey dokes, I guess there is no getting through to you.

So there is not much point in me posting off topic nor you nor anyone else.

Posts shall be on topic, i.e. whether the Qur'an obligates Muslism to read the Bible.

Anything other than that, like my previous statements to Balthasar21 which have not been on topic will be deleted.

Not to hide the truth as some might claim, because any new threads made on other such topics can be opened :)

[Balthasar21]

Okey dokes, I guess there is no getting through to you.

So there is not much point in me posting off topic nor you nor anyone else.

Posts shall be on topic, i.e. whether the Qur'an obligates Muslism to read the Bible.

Anything other than that, like my previous statements to Balthasar21 which have not been on topic will be deleted.

Not to hide the truth as some might claim, because any new threads made on other such topics can be opened :)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Why did I Know you were going to do this Hummmm ego wasn't feed ...

[Umar001]

I'll just leave that one to show exactly the reason why I will delete off topic ones ;) thanks for the classic example.

[zoro]

What really bothers me about the following quotations is that he was right.

• If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things.

• All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprhension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.

• No matter what amount of talent is employed in the organization of propaganda, it will have no result if due account is not taken of these fundamental principles. Propaganda must be limited to a few simple themes and these must be represented again and again. Here, as in innumerable other cases, perseverance is the first and most important condition of success.

• How fortunate for leaders than men do not think.

• If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

• Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

• The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.

• The broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

• Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward.

• The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others.

The author, of course, was Hitler.

[Balthasar21]

I'll just leave that one to show exactly the reason why I will delete off topic ones ;) thanks for the classic example.

Every one was on the topic until you flip the subject to something else , And that was because you didn't want to accept the truth about the quraan telling muslim to read the scriptures before the quraan and thats the bible , So now your going to delete anything you don't like to keep the truth Hidden . But let's be real here if you can , What you really fear it that the christians here might use what's being post against you and that scare the hell out of you doesn't

[Umar001]

Just curious, could you please link that to the topic.

Thank you for your patience.

[NoName55]

^^ and this zoro post is on topic? how?

edit
I did not see that you were already dealing with it :)

Just curious, could you please link that to the topic.

Thank you for your patience.

[Umar001]

Every one was on the topic until you flip the subject to something else , And that was because you didn't want to accept the truth about the quraan telling muslim to read the scriptures before the quraan and thats the bible , So now your going to delete anything you don't like to keep the truth Hidden . But let's be real here if you can , What you really fear it that the christians here might use what's being post against you and that scare the hell out of you doesn't

Lol someone brought forth verses and I asked how they derived their view from the verses and you call that off topic?

As for your claims again, you see, you chose to believe something and you take anything which proves contrary and throw it away. I showed you already that although being a Mod I have yet to delete many a post which have shown better arguements than this thread.

Examples were given earlier, but you fail to see them or chose not to see them.

You have not proved any scripture of the Qur'an proving anything, and Grenville has posted verses and I am discussing that and trying to put forth my view and see his, also the same with Aaron, he posted his verses and proofs, and I responded and asked questions.

What is it you find so worrying about someone asking for proof? Does it worry you?

[Balthasar21]

Lol someone brought forth verses and I asked how they derived their view from the verses and you call that off topic?

As for your claims again, you see, you chose to believe something and you take anything which proves contrary and throw it away. I showed you already that although being a Mod I have yet to delete many a post which have shown better arguements than this thread.

Examples were given earlier, but you fail to see them or chose not to see them.

You have not proved any scripture of the Qur'an proving anything, and Grenville has posted verses and I am discussing that and trying to put forth my view and see his, also the same with Aaron, he posted his verses and proofs, and I responded and asked questions.

What is it you find so worrying about someone asking for proof? Does it worry you?

I never written a post as of yet and didn't use chapter or verse . Overstand something and I really don't mean ANY DISRESPECT HERE person like you will never be able to disprove anything I Have posted or will post because you're full of yourself , Your to busy trying to save face , While trying to label me . Like I said before I answer your question you can take it or leave it . Following me around not going to change anything .

To desire security is a sign of insecurity remember this ok

[Zulkiflim]

In christianity it is also very simple, you have to believe in Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation and God in human flesh and believe in Bible as the only holy book. Thats it. If you dont do it , you are not a christian. Thats why neither jeahovas witnesses nor mormons are christians.

Salaam,

Again,how about unitarians,,are they christian in your book.
thy claim s you claim but disbeleive in trinity.

You choose to say whom is right and whom is wrong and the problem is simple casue you ahve no clear knowledge.


I cna easily say that your opposite is true,and you are wrong,then to who do you base your answer to..the Bible but each of you have your own INDIVIDUAL BIBLE wiht different content.

[zoro]

In response to NoName55 (Post #122) and to Al Habeshi (Post #121), if that post was directed to my Post #119, please permit me to briefly review – in which I’ve taken the liberty to capitalize some quoted words that, to me, were significant.

Starting this thread, “Grenville” asked:

The Koran appears to suggest that Muslims should read the Books of the people who came before them - those people being Christians and Israelites. Since this INFORMATION is contained in the Bible, are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

That question contained the premiss that the Bible contains “information”.

“Woodrow” immediately countered with: “We [Muslims] would be [obligated to read the Books of the people who came before them] if they [such books] still existed” but that it is “difficult to find any EVIDENCE that [they] still [exist].”

To me, Woodrow’s post was important in that he recognized the importance of “evidence”.

“Islamirama” stated

You should not read the bible or other scriptures, especially if you don't know enough about your own book and religion to make distinction between FALSE and TRUTH.

“Woodrow” responded with: “That [by Islamirama] is very TRUE.”

“Al Habeshi” added: “We have to BELIEVE that God sent books…”

To me, such posts carelessly used the words “true” and “false” and introduced the word “believe” without commenting on relevant “evidence.”

Complaining about the suggestion (e.g., by Woodrow) that “the Bible has been changed”, “Aaron85” responded: “how is it possible that I believe in the same fundamental christian TRUTH as did christians just after Christ’s death…”

In Post #16, “Aaron85” pointed out that “In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST [his caps] charged that the Bible had been corrupted and the Bible falsified… He said “Since the Qur’an must be TRUE it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are FALSE…”

And so on it went – arguing about what was “true” and what was “false”, displaying conflicting “beliefs”. For example, Al Habeshi made the good point

A person can be sincerely wrong, they can BELIEVE till they are blue in the face; I am sure of Islam at the same time I am kind of sure someone else is sure of christianity, yet both of us would die for it.

To me, the intensity with which the arguments raged in subsequent posts (e.g., “shame on you trying to hide the TRUTH”) not only supported Al Habeshi’s point but also stimulated me to submit that, unfortunately, such arguments provided evidence to support Hitler’s assessments.

And of course I would desire that Hitler were wrong, but until people use the scientific method to discard claims to “truth” that have no predictive capability or are untestable (e.g., the claim that any god exists or that there is “life after death”), then I’m afraid that such arguments will continue to rage, but without resolution, even beyond people being “blue in the face”, to the point that “people… die” for their beliefs – even though such “beliefs” can never be demonstrated to be “true”.

So, in direct response to Grenville’s original post, asking if Muslims are obligated to read the Bible: it depends on what’s meant by “Muslim”. If by “Muslim” is meant a fellow human being on this planet who is struggling to understand this universe and his or her place within it, while simultaneously trying to be kind to fellow humans, then of course he or she isn’t “obligated” to read the Bible. The Bible (and all “holy books”) are pre-scientific speculations about our universe that were concocted by ignorant clerics – and substantial evidence is available to support the assessment that the clerics concocted such texts mostly for their own benefit, to gain control over the people.

I would submit, however (and consistent with Aristotle’s assessment that “all people desire to know”), that everyone is obligated to try to understand what “knowledge” means, to learn how knowledge is obtained about the reality external to one’s mind, and to be careful to avoid adopting any “Big Lie” in which “the powers that be” attempt to indoctrinate us – for their own benefit.

Meanwhile, for those of us who want to know what’s “true”, then first and unfortunately, we encounter a principle that has not yet been shown to be false, namely, the best that humans have been able to do is determine what’s false. How to determine what’s false is to test the predictions of any claim: if those predictions can’t be tested (e.g., “all invisible flying elephants are pink”) or can be tested only by dead people (e.g., “if you believe that all invisible flying elephants are pink, then after you die, you’ll go to paradise”) or can be tested and found to be wrong (e.g., “if you don’t believe that all invisible flying elephants are pink, then you won’t be able to type another word”), then we should toss all such claims in the trashcan of human mistakes – and move on to the next claim – in search of claims that are closer to “the truth”.

[Balthasar21]

I have to ask this question . Why are Some muslims afraid of reading the Bible ? What is it that they Fear ?

[Umar001]

I never written a post as of yet and didn't use chapter or verse . Overstand something and I really don't mean ANY DISRESPECT HERE person like you will never be able to disprove anything I Have posted or will post because you're full of yourself , Your to busy trying to save face , While trying to label me . Like I said before I answer your question you can take it or leave it . Following me around not going to change anything .

To desire security is a sign of insecurity remember this ok

I am not full of myself I have just asked questions, please keep that in mind. I have no face to save, I have nothing to lose here. You didn't answer if you did then quote the answer instead of saying 'I answered you...' Following you around? Come on man.

Hi zoro;

I have to say that I do disagree with some of your statements, for example:

The Bible (and all “holy books”) are pre-scientific speculations about our universe that were concocted by ignorant clerics – and substantial evidence is available to support the assessment that the clerics concocted such texts mostly for their own benefit, to gain control over the people.

I think that is a discussion within itself.

Though I am please to have someone who seems to want test things and so forth, since all I ask is that if we put forth a theory as to what something means or is then we should show evidences for why we hold this theory true and opposing ones false.

[zoro]

Al Habeshi:

I think that is a discussion within itself.

I agree -- and it's a huge topic!

… all I ask is that if we put forth a theory as to what something means or is then we should show evidences for why we hold this theory true and opposing ones false.

I agree with the spirit of that recommendation, also.

I would prefer, however, if the statement were closer to "if we put forth a theory… we should provide evidence TO SUPPORT OUR ESTIMATES OF THE PROBABILITIES that our theory is true and opposing ones false." That is, I very much wish that everyone would break free from the inappropriate "true/false dichotomy" and realize that the best that we mere mortals can do is estimate probabilities.

[Umar001]

Well that is what I indicated, as I said 'why we hold this theory true'

As you stated, one of the only things we can but do is estimate the chances and probabilities of a case and the likelyhood of things. This is why I urge and call for the understanding behind beliefs.

I think you have made it clear, and we, in my view, maybe I am mistaken agree, that we should start and investigation and then look into the possible avenues which maybe open, not assume an avenue and then try to prove it.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

There seems to be some misunderstandings that I shall attempt to resolve.

1. Believing without seeing

Your principal point was: “If God tells us believe that he sent a book then we don't have to have the book there for us to believe that He sent it.”

However, this is not what the Koran says. It says:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Therefore it does not say that Muslims are to believe that God sent down Books for Israelites and Christians. However, it does say that they are to believe what is written inthe Books – the scripture.

2. Muslims are to follow the Books

I wrote: “So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well.”

Please note that the “them” that I was referring to was not people, but the Books. I am sorry if I misled you.

3. Muslims are to seek instruction from others.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

This is not concerning a specific matter as you have noted. There are various matters being discussed in the previous verses.

4. Conclusion

Your conclusion that: “None of those verses state to learn, read, or claim the preservation of the Bible” is unsubstantiated. All of the verses that were provided indicate that the Books referred to were accessible, and acceptable for both reading and following.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Zoro:

Allow me to respond.

1. You noted: "To me, the intensity with which the arguments raged in subsequent posts (e.g., “shame on you trying to hide the TRUTH”) not only supported Al Habeshi’s point but also stimulated me to submit that, unfortunately, such arguments provided evidence to support Hitler’s assessments."

You should not use extraneous banter as "evidence".

2. You wrote: "So, in direct response to Grenville’s original post, asking if Muslims are obligated to read the Bible: it depends on what’s meant by “Muslim”."

A Muslim in this context is someone who follows the Koran. This means submitting to God, etc etc.

3. You wrote: "I would submit, however (and consistent with Aristotle’s assessment that “all people desire to know”), that everyone is obligated to try to understand what “knowledge” means, to learn how knowledge is obtained about the reality external to one’s mind, and to be careful to avoid adopting any “Big Lie” in which “the powers that be” attempt to indoctrinate us – for their own benefit. Meanwhile, for those of us who want to know what’s “true” ..."

You wish to know what is true, and yet you appear to ignore the test that has been provided for millennia. I and many can attest to the truth, but I cannot carry out your test - that you must do for yourself.

An adequate analogy is for me to describe colour to a man who had never opened his eyes. It would be challenging. The man has at least two options. He can either open his eyes and be convinced, or he can keep his eyes closed, continue to argue that there is no such thing as colour, and disqualify himself from a wonderful experience.

It is written: "Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good." I and multitudes can encourage you by testifying that He is indeed good. But you must submit to God to know for yourself. That is the test. Submit to God - please.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

An adequate analogy is for me to describe colour to a man who had never opened his eyes. It would be challenging. The man has at least two options. He can either open his eyes and be convinced, or he can keep his eyes closed, continue to argue that there is no such thing as colour, and disqualify himself from a wonderful experience.

Regards,
Grenville

An excellent Analogy-- reps!

[zoro]

Al Habeshi: Yes, it is my view, also, that we agree.

Grenville:

You should not use extraneous banter as "evidence".

Hello? I was using it as evidence” of banter!

A Muslim in this context is someone who follows the Koran. This means submitting to God, etc etc.

Why so restrictive? Are they not humans, first?!

You wish to know what is true, and yet you appear to ignore the test that has been provided for millennia. I and many can attest to the truth, but I cannot carry out your test - that you must do for yourself.

Of course I “ignore” such a test! It’s unscientific. As Caesar said, “people believe what they want.” But just because you want to believe something is “true” doesn’t make it so. What data does the claim summarize? Is it a succinct summary or can it be shaved by Ockham’s razor? Is it consistent with well-established principles such as those of logic? What testable predictions does the hypothesis provide? What are the results of such tests? I mean, it may make me happy to believe that all invisible flying elephants are pink, but if that’s my reason for holding such a belief, then I expect that everyone else will say, “You’re delusional!” – save, of course, for those similarly enlightened by the beauty of all those pretty pink elephants.

An adequate analogy is for me to describe colour to a man who had never opened his eyes. It would be challenging. The man has at least two options. He can either open his eyes and be convinced, or he can keep his eyes closed, continue to argue that there is no such thing as colour, and disqualify himself from a wonderful experience.

One of the most fallacious arguments ever proposed (right up there with the “proof by pleasure fallacy” behind your “belief”) is that argument by analogy is adequate. Witness Aristotle’s analogy “proving” that slavery was justified, “proofs” of the existence of God by the “watchmaker analogy”, and so on.

It is written: "Oh taste and see that the Lord is Good." I and multitudes can encourage you by testifying that He is indeed good. But you must submit to God to know for yourself. That is the test. Submit to God - please.

Your kind request is, unfortunately, meaningless to me. If you (or anyone) would provide even the tiniest shred of reliable data (rather than a bunch of speculations) that any god exists, then I’d be delighted to do whatever that god recommends. But from all data that I’ve found (namely, zip), the existence of invisible flying pink elephants is hugely more likely – and one of the neatest things about those hallowed elephants is that they don’t require that anyone “submit” to them!

Thus, from my perspective, you’ve bought into the really, really BIG LIE – just as Hitler saw.

[Zulkiflim]

I have to ask this question . Why are Some muslims afraid of reading the Bible ? What is it that they Fear ?

Salaam,

i ma afraid the fear lies in you not in any muslim.

In simple term,,WE DO NOT NEED TO READ LIES..when we already have TRUTH.

We do not need to read a book changed by man and whose content are vile and sometime pornographic.

And in Islam we have several holy book,the Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (commonly the Scrolls of Abraham), the Tawrat (Torah), the Zabur (commonly the Psalms), the Injil (commonly the Gospelaccordign to Propeht Jesus as), and the Qur'an.

[NoName55]

edit

[Balthasar21]

Are their more then one Allah ?

[NoName55]

^^ *Troll alert* off topic to be ignored by me

[Balthasar21]

Truth will last and false things will vanish in time :)

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

There seems to be some misunderstandings that I shall attempt to resolve.

1. Believing without seeing

Your principal point was: “If God tells us believe that he sent a book then we don't have to have the book there for us to believe that He sent it.”

However, this is not what the Koran says. It says:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Therefore it does not say that Muslims are to believe that God sent down Books for Israelites and Christians. However, it does say that they are to believe what is written inthe Books – the scripture.

Again, believing in a book, I thought went hand in hand with obviously the content of the book. So yes, Muslims are obliged to believe in the Book, not just the cover if that's what you thought I meant, but the whole book.

You stated: He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing. Indicating that if someone says believe IN something that it must mean that the you have to know the ins and outs of it, i.e. if we are told to believe in a book we have to know the content, but if God says, believe that I sent a book and believe in what was in the Book, then would you not believe?

2. Muslims are to follow the Books

I wrote: “So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well.”

Please note that the “them” that I was referring to was not people, but the Books. I am sorry if I misled you.

You quoted this verse:

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

But this doesnt say follow them, it says follow it, read it this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous also, read the rest, what does it say? 'Lest you should say...' this book is given to them lest they should moan and groan and put forth escuses. Nowhere does it says follow the Torah or Injeel of Moses or Jesus.

3. Muslims are to seek instruction from others.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

This is not concerning a specific matter as you have noted. There are various matters being discussed in the previous verses.

Like? The verse is clear, if you are in doubt, so that is the condition, if YOU are in DOUBT about what was revealed to you, meaning who? Muhammad, ask those who have been reading the Book before you. This is at most to ascertain the truth of the Qur'an and Muhammad's revelation.

4. Conclusion

Your conclusion that: “None of those verses state to learn, read, or claim the preservation of the Bible” is unsubstantiated. All of the verses that were provided indicate that the Books referred to were accessible, and acceptable for both reading and following.

Regards,
Grenville

They do not at all, why do we not take a verse one by one, though it has been sufficient doing the above, and clearly show us what they say, you see, noone of them clarify anything, further more the rest of the Qur'an shows they have changed, as the quote of Ibn Abbas shows.

Let us take one by one, bring forth each verse and discuss it without any prejudice, and then let us see both theories.

Regards
Eesa

[Balthasar21]

( Belief vs Knowledge )

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.


To believe is to accept things that you do NOT know. Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions.
Belief = acceptance of things that you don't know .



Knowledge = correct information which is always logical and reasons out.
Knowledge can be checked out by one or more of three test:
1) Experience
2) Evidence
3) Reason
One can not always use the "experience" test, because the experience test is not practical for all knowledge. The evidence & reason test are those test which are more often practical.

You either believe or you know. Belief is accepting things without knowing and knowing is to have knowledge which is correct information. Thus the 3 test can be applied to knowledge as previously stated

A good example of this .

Fact: Snow white lived with 7 dwarfs.
Fact: One of the dwarfs name was dopey
Fact: Snow appears in a move made by Walt Disney
Fact: Snow white is rate G
Fact: Snow white met a witch
Fact: Snow white fell into a deep sleep and was awakened by the kiss
of a prince.
All these are facts. But SNOW WHITE is a fictional story.


One should investigate or don't accept. The choice is up to the individual.
I seek to know and shed beliefs / faith / believe .

[MustafaMc]

Now this is the deal ok I have given you VERSE where it tell muslims to read the scriptures before the Quraan ,

Simple question - which verse are you talking about? I have looked and looked and I can't find it. Fill in the blanks Surah ____ : ayat _____

Now if you can't overstand that the scriptures were El's Torah / El's Holy Injiyl Etc , Then that's on you , I also have use these same scriptures to prove where your teaching came verse by verse again you find it hard to accepted because you can't deal with the truth , So you try to flip things by asking if I got my information from some anti-websites to change the subject ,

Then you threaten to silence me but what what your really mean you would banned me , What it boil down to is you can let it go . Meaning you can't agree to disagree . All your little Sermons / Testimony about who you debated / discuss with before I came to the forum really mean nothing other then they disagree with you too those who did so what .

What so funny is the verse that I gave you showing that the Quraan was copy from the Torah Were written before the Quraan , And they so happen to be in the Quraan , Yet you're still deny it . LOLOLOL now that deep . Now those who have been follow this post know what I'm saying in true . Any Christian or muslims who can read can see the compairson , If they take the blinder off . That's why I said in one of the above post if Christian or muslims would read the Bible and Quraan themselves and not let people like you try to force their belief's on them , That wouldN'T have to use words like I BELIEVE THIS OR THAT , All they have to give chapter and verse and say this is what your God saying .


Now unless you're going to threaten to silence / banned me again , or keep saying I'm geting my information from some anti-website to change the subject at hand . I will show why Christian and muslims should read the Bible and Quraan that's if your not afraid . Those muslims who will agree will those who wont will not .

Sorry, but I am unclear as to your point.

[MustafaMc]

Hi MustafaMc:

You wanted me to provide you with verses that showed where the Koran encouraged Muslims to study those Books that were previously sent to the Israelites and Christians. Please see the following verses.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So Muslims are not only to believe the Koran, but the Books sent to Israelites and Christians. You cannot igronantly say “I believe” without actually reading or listening to the Books. Mohammed was not a lunatic. He would not tell Muslims to believe something that they simply had no way of accessing. Here is another verse.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

So Muslims are not only instructed to read and believe the Books but to follow them as well. Here is another verse.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

So Muslims are encouraged to seek instruction from those to whom God sent the Books previously, further confirming that acceptable copies were available at the time of Mohammed. Now Muslime are obviously not to seek instruction from those who would “hide the truth knowingly”, but from those described below.

113-115: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

Best regards,
Grenville

Thank you for the response with specific ayat. God willing, I will look this up and read in context when I return home.

[MustafaMc]

So the passage is talking about Muhammad being in doubt as to what was given to him, it is talking here about a specific matter, being in doubt about what God revealed, ask the people about this.

This points to human nature. It is an extremely rare event for Allah to talk to someone albeit through the Angel Jibrael. Your statement indicates that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had a human nature.

We Muslims take the whole issue of prophethood extremely seriously and don't believe every Tom, Dick and Harry who claims to have a revelation from Allah. In contrast, Christians treat Paul, John, and others as prophets who received direct revelation from Jesus or from Allah.

[MustafaMc]

That because your both cut from the same cloth trying to keep the truth Hidden . You or him can't change what have been written already no matter how hard you both try to hide the truth . You should read Quraan 17 ; 81

I understand that Surah 17: 81 is the verse that you have been referring to. God willing, I will read it in context soon.

[Balthasar21]

Simple question - which verse are you talking about? I have looked and looked and I can't find it. Fill in the blanks Surah ____ : ayat _____



Sorry, but I am unclear as to your point.

Here they are
(#67 (permalink))
(#35 (permalink))
(#42 (permalink))

[HBot 5000]

Hi Everyone:

The Koran appears to suggest that Muslims should read the Books of the people who came before them - those people being Christians and Israelites. Since this information is contained in the Bible, are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?

Regards,
Grenville

:sl:

The old and new testaments have been changed so many times it would serve no purpose to do so. A recent tv series on national geo has opened my eyes :X

:thumbs_up

:w:

[zoro]

Balthasar21:

First, re. your post #141, I liked your “Snow White” example. But please consider the following concepts. If you will consider them, then perhaps you and I may come to closer agreement.

It would make our communications simpler if you will agree to the following definitions, which are common in philosophy and science. They were introduced in science about 150 years ago, probably in thermodynamics, and were adopted in philosophy at least 50 years ago, possibly via the writings of Karl Popper. The definitions distinguish “open systems” from “closed systems”.

A good example of a “closed system” is the one you gave about the Snow White movie: facts can be established without any doubt, and associated statements can be demonstrated to be either “true” or “false”. Other “closed systems” are other story books (from Superman comics to all “holy books”), all games (checkers, chess, card games, baseball, all sports), and pure mathematics. In all such “closed systems”, the concepts of “true” and “false” can be established. As examples for stories, then in the case of Superman, it’s “true” that he’s invulnerable to everything except kryptonite, and in the case of Christianity, it’s “true” that Jesus was born of a virgin, died and rose from the dead, etc. Similarly, in the case of games, it’s “true” that in poker a flush always beats a straight, that in baseball “three strikes and you’re out”, and so on. And in pure math, 1 + 1 = 2, etc.

For “open systems”, however, we can no longer determine, with certainty, if events or claims are either “true” or “false”; instead, at best, we must “muddle by” with estimates of the probabilities that various events or claims are “true” or “false”. For example, in our legal system (an “open system”, because we must always be “open” to new evidence), we can’t be 100% certain that it’s “true” that some accused person is guilty (or innocent); therefore, the courts ask the jury to reach a decision “beyond reasonable doubt”, e.g., that there’s only (say) 1 chance in a million (= 10^6) that the accused is innocent. Similarly in science, we still can’t be sure, for example, that Einstein’s special theory of relativity is “true”, but based on the evidence to date, it appears that the chance that it’s wrong is only (say) 1 chance in 10^12.

Thus, in “open systems” (as opposed to “closed systems”) new information is permitted to enter the system (just as in “open thermodynamic systems”, in which heat is permitted to enter the system and the system is permitted to do work). For example, tomorrow someone might demonstrate that the theory of relativity is wrong – and almost certainly will win a Nobel Prize for the demonstration. In “closed systems”, in contrast, new information (new evidence) isn’t permitted to enter. For example, in the Snow White movie, it doesn’t matter if you watch it at the theater or on your TV; it’s always the same. Similarly in poker, a flush always beats a straight, regardless of the time of day, the size of the bet, or whatever, and so on.

An important observation is that, as far as is known, “reality” is an “open system”. That is, we can’t know what new evidence will arise “around the next bend” in either space or time (or space-time). Consequently, the best that we can do “in reality” is to estimate probabilities that events or claims are “true” or “false”.

An even more important observation (made by Popper) is to see how knowledge is obtained in the open system called “reality”, namely, not by determining what’s true (which is impossible) but by eliminating what appears to be false (which is generally much easier to do). For example, if the claim is made that diamonds always scratch wood, then I can do thousands of tests that support that claim (concluding that the statement is “true” to within at least one part in a thousand – but I can’t be certain), but if the claim is made that wood always scratches diamonds, then only after a single test I can demonstrate that the statement is false.

“Popper’s principle” is (in essence) that we gain knowledge about the reality external to our minds by formulating principles that can be falsified but have not yet been falsified. For example, the principle that diamonds always scratch wood is (in principle) falsifiable, but no one has yet shown it to be false. Therefore, we have gained some knowledge about the relative hardness of diamond and wood.

And it’s important that any proposed principle (or “hypothesis”) can be falsified. For example, if I claim that all invisible flying elephants are pink, then (as far as I know) the claim can’t be falsified – because if the elephants are invisible, how can their color be determined? Consequently, if any proposed hypothesis is, even in principle, not falsifiable, then it should be just dismissed as “idle speculation’.

As another example, if the claim is made – not just in a story but in reality – that Jesus was born of a virgin, then such a claim should be dismissed as “idle speculation”, since there’s no way to falsify the claim. On the other hand, if the claim is made that Jesus had no earthly father, then there is a chance (albeit small) that someday skeletons will be found from which DNA samples will be able to support or refute the claim.

Now, after that long introduction (and with apologies for its length), let me turn to your post #141 (and then I’ll comment on your first post).

Belief & Believe are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.

My assessment is that your statements are too “harsh”. I would prefer something closer to: “When stating one’s belief, one should provide estimates for associated probabilities; for example, I believe that there’s a 10% chance that it’ll rain here today, I’m 99.9999% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow; I’ll give you 5:3 odds that the Red Sox will beat the Yankees in their next game; I’m essentially certain that Mary was impregnated by a man (and 10% confident that the man was the Roman soldier Pandera).”

To believe is to accept things that you do NOT know. Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions. Belief = acceptance of things that you don't know.

Again I suggest that those statements are too harsh. In reality, we can’t be certain of anything – including the “truth” of that statement! It appears that the best that we are able to do is “muddle by” with falsifiable statements that have not yet been falsified, and use the results of tests to determine the probability that any claim is “true”. For example, from a series of test that I’ve performed throughout my lifetime, I have 99.9999999999999999… % confidence in the claim that I exist. I can’t prove it; all of us may be just simulations in some giant computer program, but I do “believe” (with the confidence already given) that I exist.

Knowledge = correct information which is always logical and reasons out.

Well, I wish it were so, but unfortunately… An example is quantum mechanics. As Feynman said (and he obtained his Nobel prize in physics for his work in quantum mechanics): “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don’t understand quantum mechanics.” That is (for reasons that I’ve describe elsewhere) quantum mechanics isn’t “logical” and doesn’t “reason out”. But its predictions are validated, and therefore, not only is it accepted but also it reveals that the most important test to determine if some “knowledge” is contained in any hypothesis is to test its predictions experimentally.

Knowledge can be checked out by one or more of three test:
1) Experience
2) Evidence
3) Reason
One can not always use the "experience" test, because the experience test is not practical for all knowledge. The evidence & reason test are those test which are more often practical.

It would be helpful to distinguish different types of “knowledge”, namely, knowledge of the reality external to our minds (i.e., knowledge about what we assume is an “objective reality” and about which we assume that “objective observers” will eventually be able to reach agreement) and knowledge that each of us possesses within ourselves (e.g., about how to keep our vital organs functioning, about what stimulates our feelings, etc.). The best way to “check out” knowledge of the external reality is via the scientific method, some of whose elements you have listed. To “check out” knowledge about, e.g., our feelings, is commonly an extremely difficult task, generally not yet understood, and probably best left to the individual (possibly with help from a “good listener”).

You either believe or you know. Belief is accepting things without knowing and knowing is to have knowledge which is correct information.

Again I’d prefer if the statement were not so “black vs. white”. I’d prefer a statement that conveys the idea that all our claims to knowledge should be qualified by estimates of probabilities of their validities.

Now, turning to your original post (#35, p. 3) in which you answered “Yes” to Grenville’s original question (“Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?”), let me give my reasons for answering “No”.

I start from two premisses. One is that all Muslims are humans. My second premiss is that “No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of errors.” Further, if the “errors” are deliberate (as can be demonstrated in the case of the Bible), and if I use the word “lie” to mean “deliberate error”, then the second premiss can be adjusted to: “No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of lies.”

I can’t demonstrate the “truth” of this second premiss (that people shouldn’t be required to read material known to be erroneous); I adopt it as a moral principle; the basis of my moral judgment is that the premiss is consistent with the prime goal of all life, namely, to continue – which I take to be the “fundamental good”.

My reasoning that leads me to conclude that Muslims aren’t obligated to read the Bible is then simply as follows:

• All Muslims are humans.
• No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of errors (even lies).
• It can be demonstrated relatively easily that the Bible contains a huge number of errors (and even lies) – although I omit that demonstration here.
• Therefore, no human (including any Muslim) should be obligated to read the Bible.

[Balthasar21]

Balthasar21:

First, re. your post #141, I liked your “Snow White” example. But please consider the following concepts. If you will consider them, then perhaps you and I may come to closer agreement.

It would make our communications simpler if you will agree to the following definitions, which are common in philosophy and science. They were introduced in science about 150 years ago, probably in thermodynamics, and were adopted in philosophy at least 50 years ago, possibly via the writings of Karl Popper. The definitions distinguish “open systems” from “closed systems”.

A good example of a “closed system” is the one you gave about the Snow White movie: facts can be established without any doubt, and associated statements can be demonstrated to be either “true” or “false”. Other “closed systems” are other story books (from Superman comics to all “holy books”), all games (checkers, chess, card games, baseball, all sports), and pure mathematics. In all such “closed systems”, the concepts of “true” and “false” can be established. As examples for stories, then in the case of Superman, it’s “true” that he’s invulnerable to everything except kryptonite, and in the case of Christianity, it’s “true” that Jesus was born of a virgin, died and rose from the dead, etc. Similarly, in the case of games, it’s “true” that in poker a flush always beats a straight, that in baseball “three strikes and you’re out”, and so on. And in pure math, 1 + 1 = 2, etc.

For “open systems”, however, we can no longer determine, with certainty, if events or claims are either “true” or “false”; instead, at best, we must “muddle by” with estimates of the probabilities that various events or claims are “true” or “false”. For example, in our legal system (an “open system”, because we must always be “open” to new evidence), we can’t be 100% certain that it’s “true” that some accused person is guilty (or innocent); therefore, the courts ask the jury to reach a decision “beyond reasonable doubt”, e.g., that there’s only (say) 1 chance in a million (= 10^6) that the accused is innocent. Similarly in science, we still can’t be sure, for example, that Einstein’s special theory of relativity is “true”, but based on the evidence to date, it appears that the chance that it’s wrong is only (say) 1 chance in 10^12.

Thus, in “open systems” (as opposed to “closed systems”) new information is permitted to enter the system (just as in “open thermodynamic systems”, in which heat is permitted to enter the system and the system is permitted to do work). For example, tomorrow someone might demonstrate that the theory of relativity is wrong – and almost certainly will win a Nobel Prize for the demonstration. In “closed systems”, in contrast, new information (new evidence) isn’t permitted to enter. For example, in the Snow White movie, it doesn’t matter if you watch it at the theater or on your TV; it’s always the same. Similarly in poker, a flush always beats a straight, regardless of the time of day, the size of the bet, or whatever, and so on.

An important observation is that, as far as is known, “reality” is an “open system”. That is, we can’t know what new evidence will arise “around the next bend” in either space or time (or space-time). Consequently, the best that we can do “in reality” is to estimate probabilities that events or claims are “true” or “false”.

An even more important observation (made by Popper) is to see how knowledge is obtained in the open system called “reality”, namely, not by determining what’s true (which is impossible) but by eliminating what appears to be false (which is generally much easier to do). For example, if the claim is made that diamonds always scratch wood, then I can do thousands of tests that support that claim (concluding that the statement is “true” to within at least one part in a thousand – but I can’t be certain), but if the claim is made that wood always scratches diamonds, then only after a single test I can demonstrate that the statement is false.

“Popper’s principle” is (in essence) that we gain knowledge about the reality external to our minds by formulating principles that can be falsified but have not yet been falsified. For example, the principle that diamonds always scratch wood is (in principle) falsifiable, but no one has yet shown it to be false. Therefore, we have gained some knowledge about the relative hardness of diamond and wood.

And it’s important that any proposed principle (or “hypothesis”) can be falsified. For example, if I claim that all invisible flying elephants are pink, then (as far as I know) the claim can’t be falsified – because if the elephants are invisible, how can their color be determined? Consequently, if any proposed hypothesis is, even in principle, not falsifiable, then it should be just dismissed as “idle speculation’.

As another example, if the claim is made – not just in a story but in reality – that Jesus was born of a virgin, then such a claim should be dismissed as “idle speculation”, since there’s no way to falsify the claim. On the other hand, if the claim is made that Jesus had no earthly father, then there is a chance (albeit small) that someday skeletons will be found from which DNA samples will be able to support or refute the claim.

Now, after that long introduction (and with apologies for its length), let me turn to your post #141 (and then I’ll comment on your first post).



My assessment is that your statements are too “harsh”. I would prefer something closer to: “When stating one’s belief, one should provide estimates for associated probabilities; for example, I believe that there’s a 10% chance that it’ll rain here today, I’m 99.9999% certain that the sun will rise tomorrow; I’ll give you 5:3 odds that the Red Sox will beat the Yankees in their next game; I’m essentially certain that Mary was impregnated by a man (and 10% confident that the man was the Roman soldier Pandera).”



Again I suggest that those statements are too harsh. In reality, we can’t be certain of anything – including the “truth” of that statement! It appears that the best that we are able to do is “muddle by” with falsifiable statements that have not yet been falsified, and use the results of tests to determine the probability that any claim is “true”. For example, from a series of test that I’ve performed throughout my lifetime, I have 99.9999999999999999… % confidence in the claim that I exist. I can’t prove it; all of us may be just simulations in some giant computer program, but I do “believe” (with the confidence already given) that I exist.



Well, I wish it were so, but unfortunately… An example is quantum mechanics. As Feynman said (and he obtained his Nobel prize in physics for his work in quantum mechanics): “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don’t understand quantum mechanics.” That is (for reasons that I’ve describe elsewhere) quantum mechanics isn’t “logical” and doesn’t “reason out”. But its predictions are validated, and therefore, not only is it accepted but also it reveals that the most important test to determine if some “knowledge” is contained in any hypothesis is to test its predictions experimentally.



It would be helpful to distinguish different types of “knowledge”, namely, knowledge of the reality external to our minds (i.e., knowledge about what we assume is an “objective reality” and about which we assume that “objective observers” will eventually be able to reach agreement) and knowledge that each of us possesses within ourselves (e.g., about how to keep our vital organs functioning, about what stimulates our feelings, etc.). The best way to “check out” knowledge of the external reality is via the scientific method, some of whose elements you have listed. To “check out” knowledge about, e.g., our feelings, is commonly an extremely difficult task, generally not yet understood, and probably best left to the individual (possibly with help from a “good listener”).



Again I’d prefer if the statement were not so “black vs. white”. I’d prefer a statement that conveys the idea that all our claims to knowledge should be qualified by estimates of probabilities of their validities.

Now, turning to your original post (#35, p. 3) in which you answered “Yes” to Grenville’s original question (“Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?”), let me give my reasons for answering “No”.

I start from two premisses. One is that all Muslims are humans. My second premiss is that “No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of errors.” Further, if the “errors” are deliberate (as can be demonstrated in the case of the Bible), and if I use the word “lie” to mean “deliberate error”, then the second premiss can be adjusted to: “No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of lies.”

I can’t demonstrate the “truth” of this second premiss (that people shouldn’t be required to read material known to be erroneous); I adopt it as a moral principle; the basis of my moral judgment is that the premiss is consistent with the prime goal of all life, namely, to continue – which I take to be the “fundamental good”.

My reasoning that leads me to conclude that Muslims aren’t obligated to read the Bible is then simply as follows:

• All Muslims are humans.
• No human should be obligated to read anything that contains a substantial number of errors (even lies).
• It can be demonstrated relatively easily that the Bible contains a huge number of errors (and even lies) – although I omit that demonstration here.
• Therefore, no human (including any Muslim) should be obligated to read the Bible.

So the bottom line here you want me to tell you want to Hear , Meaning what to say and how to say it . Did you Suggest the above to your teacher .

[HBot 5000]

Well, I wish it were so, but unfortunately… An example is quantum mechanics. As Feynman said (and he obtained his Nobel prize in physics for his work in quantum mechanics): “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don’t understand quantum mechanics.” That is (for reasons that I’ve describe elsewhere) quantum mechanics isn’t “logical” and doesn’t “reason out”. But its predictions are validated, and therefore, not only is it accepted but also it reveals that the most important test to determine if some “knowledge” is contained in any hypothesis is to test its predictions experimentally

:sl:

Erm mod this is going to be off topic :offtopic:

First of all I have a Bsc in Physics & quantum mechanics and a MSc in Quantum mechanical dynamics.

In quantum mechanics we measure probability that is given by the wavefunction (psi). To say it is not logical implies that mathematics is not logical as the wavefunction is a measure of probability. It does reason out when you collapse the corresponding wavefunction however when the result is in a state of flux (i.e. the wavefunction is still intact) then we can measure this property by probability.

Infact the most intruiging hypothesis of QM is the many worlds theory. In this theory before the wavefunction is collapsed their is a choice to the observer. This choice then collapses (by the observer) and creatures 2 identical universes. One with the choice being made and one with the alternate choice. Both realities are played out. However the most intruiging is the normal theory that the observer has a choice. Once he selects the choice the wavefunction collapses and the other choice goes to infinity. This my dear boy fits perfectly into Islam. Allah has given us all a choice. A choice to be good, a choice to be bad, a choice to follow Islam and a choice not to, a choice to read the bible etc.

Its all your choice. :thumbs_up

:w:

[Zulkiflim]

Are their more then one Allah ?

Salaam,

the word Allah means ONE GOD..

Can you tell me is it possible to have thousands of ONE GOD?
The language itself highlight the attribute.

ONE GOD= ALLAH.

[Walter]

Hi Zoro:

Perhaps we can continue this topic under a thread “Where is the evidence that God exists”. However, for tidiness, I will respond to your concern here. When processing evidence, we should not reject unfamiliar types of data and the way that such data can be quantified. You do not appear to appreciate the educational value of analogies, but they are useful, especially in this context.

A more appropriate analogy in this regard would be for a man who refuses to open his eyes to claim that the only data that he is willing to evaluate is what he can touch, smell, taste and hear. Even though he has the ability to evaluate colour, he stubbornly refuses to consider it because he will not open his eyes.

The above is analogous to spiritual things. People will inexplicably choose to live in darkness rather than to do something as simple as the equivalent of opening their eyes. To believers, the decision to live in darkness is befuddling. To the unbeliever, the experiences of believers are meaningless. How can we resolve this?

I cannot force you to believe, even though I wish that I could pull you into the light for just a glimpse of “colour”. I love you Zoro. God also loves you. The scriptures say that God draws people unto Himself. Please Zoro, if you ever feel Him drawing you, please do not reject Him.

Sincerely,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

1. The Scriptures

You noted: “Again, believing in a book, I thought went hand in hand with obviously the content of the book. So yes, Muslims are obliged to believe in the Book, not just the cover if that's what you thought I meant, but the whole book.”

However, the Koran does not say to believe in a Book, but rather “the scripture which He sent to those before” (4:136) i.e. the content of the book. This strongly indicates that the book was both available for reading, and that the content was acceptable.

2. The Torah

You noted: “Nowhere does it says follow the Torah or Injeel of Moses or Jesus.”

But I think that it does. Let us start from verse 154.

6:154 - Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

This book was obviously the Torah. Then it continues.

6:155 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:

So which Book is this - the previous Book or the Koran? Well it is clarified in the following verse.

6:156 - Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

Well it seems that the answer is the previous Book.

3. Various Matters

I quoted the following:

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

You claimed that this was specific to Mohammed. I agree; however, I believe that it is also a general principal for all.

I agree that we should discuss these matters without prejudice and with mutual respect. Please be assured that my motives are good, and I appreciate your perspective.

Best regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you.

Regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

However, the Koran does not say to believe in a Book, but rather “the scripture which He sent to those before” (4:136) i.e. the content of the book. This strongly indicates that the book was both available for reading, and that the content was acceptable.

If God told you to believe that he sent a book to people before you and to believe what was in the book i.e. its contents would you or would you have to see what is in it?

As for the other part, then read the whole verse, who is Allah speaking to when he says 'lest..' Anyone can 'prove' anything if they cut and paste parts out, a person could even prove the trinity.

[جوري]

:sl:

Erm mod this is going to be off topic :offtopic:

First of all I have a Bsc in Physics & quantum mechanics and a MSc in Quantum mechanical dynamics.

In quantum mechanics we measure probability that is given by the wavefunction (psi). To say it is not logical implies that mathematics is not logical as the wavefunction is a measure of probability. It does reason out when you collapse the corresponding wavefunction however when the result is in a state of flux (i.e. the wavefunction is still intact) then we can measure this property by probability.

Infact the most intruiging hypothesis of QM is the many worlds theory. In this theory before the wavefunction is collapsed their is a choice to the observer. This choice then collapses (by the observer) and creatures 2 identical universes. One with the choice being made and one with the alternate choice. Both realities are played out. However the most intruiging is the normal theory that the observer has a choice. Once he selects the choice the wavefunction collapses and the other choice goes to infinity. This my dear boy fits perfectly into Islam. Allah has given us all a choice. A choice to be good, a choice to be bad, a choice to follow Islam and a choice not to, a choice to read the bible etc.

Its all your choice. :thumbs_up

:w:

Go ahead and read his pamphlet on PDF file, you'll have a really good laugh... intriguing piece of imagined science, the fulcrum of the world a zero splitting. Go ahead and put that on a math or physics test and see how your professor grades it.

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you.

Regards,
Grenville

You are welcome :)

[zoro]

Balthasar 21:

So the bottom line here you want me to tell you want to Hear , Meaning what to say and how to say it . Did you Suggest the above to your teacher .

Good heavens! What a silly response. I’ll not waste my time with you again.

Hbot 5000:

First of all I have a Bsc in Physics & quantum mechanics and a MSc in Quantum mechanical dynamics.

Good! Then I won’t need to work so hard trying to explain QM to you as to others! [I have my bachelors in Engineering Physics, masters in Nuclear Physics, and a Ph.D. (which I started in astrophysics but switched to aerospace engineering for financial reasons, with minors in plasma physics and applied math), plus at least 10-years university teaching (in Physics, Engineering, and Applied Math) and 25 years of research experience.]

Your statement, “To say it [QM] is not logical implies that mathematics is not logical as the wavefunction is a measure of probability” is not necessarily so. I expect that the math is okay, but Einstein’s complaint was that the math suggests that a signal (the wave function) can travel faster than the speed of light – in the limit, across the universe, instantaneously, when the wave function collapses (via a realization, e.g., in the slit experiment, which was Feynman’s example, as you probably know, that led him to conclude “if you think you understand QM, then you don’t”).

An alternative that intrigues me is John Cramer’s approach (e.g., see his "Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics" (Rev. Mod. Phys. 58, 647-688, 1986, available at http://www.npl.washington.edu/TI/TI_toc.html and especially see his 2004 "slide show" available at http://www.faculty.washington.edu/jc...skone_0402.ppt ). As I understand what he’s doing (and that’s only poorly!), he’s proposing that time goes in the opposite direction in space (or “the vacuum”), which, of course, is “brim full” of negative energy; thereby, its past is our future.

In his view, the slit experiment, for example, is explained by a “handshake” of the advanced and retarded wave functions, across the “divide” between our “positive-side of reality” and the “negative-side of reality” (which we call “the vacuum”). As you can see from his “Power Point” presentation, he’s been able not only to resolve several long-standing QM paradoxes (of the type that Einstein addressed and that confused Feynman) but also to provide predictions for new experiments. Thus, it may be that Cramer is the one who thinks he understands QM – and he does! But I haven’t followed his work closely enough to be able to judge.

In contrast to “the many worlds theory” that you mention, I find Cramer’s ideas more appealing. I can see how the many worlds theory is appealing to religious people, but my major complaint with it is that it (as opposed to Cramer’s model) seems untestable – and therefore, essentially meaningless. Meanwhile, if you’ll have a look at an advanced physics thread that I started (at http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum...ead.php?t=6992) or look at the first chapter of my online book (at http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf ), you’ll probably quickly see why I find Cramer’s model more appealing – especially if someone could show that the total entropy of the universe is zero (when account is taken for the entropy of the vacuum – and if it’s correct that, there, time goes in the opposite direction). Maybe you could do it! It would be a great Ph.D. thesis topic (if only but only funding could be found for it).

Grenville:

Thank you again for you kind comments. And yes, I agree that another thread would be appropriate dealing with the evidence (or lack thereof). I certainly agree that we shouldn’t “reject unfamiliar types of data…” But let me correct your “you do not appear to appreciate the educational value of analogies…” Certainly I do; I have frequently used them in my lectures (and in life); my point, however, was that they are essentially useless in attempts to prove anything – save for trying to help students understand what it is you’re trying to prove!

But re. your “analogous to spiritual things”, the concept leaves me cold! You are positing something “supernatural”, but I have never found any data supporting the existence of anything “supernatural”; therefore, all such analogies seem to me to be a waste of good intellect.

People will inexplicably choose to live in darkness rather than to do something as simple as the equivalent of opening their eyes. To believers, the decision to live in darkness is befuddling. To the unbeliever, the experiences of believers are meaningless. How can we resolve this?

An excellent question! That would be a tremendous thread. More significantly, given that the terrorists may soon acquire weapons of mass destruction (out to an including destruction of all life on Earth), it’s a question that may turn out to be the most critical question that humanity has ever faced – or will ever face! And although I appreciate the kindness of your attempt to tug me in your direction, for the benefit of humanity, I implore you to consider my perspective: as certain as I can be of anything, I’m certain that it’s foolish (even, as Socrates would define, “evil”) to hold beliefs more strongly than relevant evidence justifies. If that simple idea would take hold, if people would develop just that basic skill in critical thinking, then just maybe we might be able to save humanity form a mystically-induced destruction.

To get there from here, I’m sure that a first step is to establish honest and respectful dialogue between members of the groups holding the disparate positions. In that regard, I want to add how encouraged I am by communications I’ve had with some members at this forum, such as yourself and Hbot 5000 (and, I’d like to add, Grace Seeker), while communications with others (whose names I’ll omit, but there posting are clear) has been extremely disappointing. I look forward to communicating with you again – who knows, I might even be able to convince you to “open your eyes” to “see the light” – provided by the scientific method.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

If God told you to believe that he sent a book to people before you and to believe what was in the book i.e. its contents would you or would you have to see what is in it?

For me to believe what is written in a book it would be absoloutely necessary for me to know (by reading or listening to) what was written in the book.

Earlier you quoted Jesus' comment to Thomas to support your argument: "blessed are those who have not seen yet believe". This is true. I have not seen the risen Messiah, but I believe.

What do I believe? I believe the information that was provided to me which I read.

What is this information? That God raised Jesus from the Dead.

Therefore I am not blindly believing something hidden but something that I can access (by reading or hearing) and then choose to believe.

As for the other part, then read the whole verse, who is Allah speaking to when he says 'lest..' Anyone can 'prove' anything if they cut and paste parts out, a person could even prove the trinity.

Al Habeshi, I quoted the the entire verse in question (6:156) and the context (6:154-155). After re-reading the wider context it would appear that the "lest ye" was referring to Mohammed and his folowers. Who do you think the "lest ye" was referring to?

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Let me apologize for the two spelling errors: “absolutely” and “followers”, and the repeated “the” in my last post.

Zoro:

I read your writing on your web site on “evaluating proofs of God” and a debate is certainly in order. However, it is Friday night and I must go home to my family. I am also travelling and will be away until Wednesday 30 May 2007, so it will not be polite for me to start a new thread now and then leave.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville.

[MustafaMc]

Slm,
I'm an english teacher but because our religion teacher went to another city I have given religion lesson to 6th grade students.

I want to tell about an anecdote. Our subjects was holly books. and told students that we should be respectfull to all 4 books, because we believe in 4 of them but we don't read bible because we believe that it has been changed, but there may a word that hasn't been changed. So that word is God's word. And I also brought bible to class and we examine it together. We read a part about Christ (AS) curing a captian's servent. both in matta and Luka. and we saw that same event was told differently and that is enough for us to believe that it is not original. because a prophet will never say "I cured" as it is said in matta but he will say "he has been cured" as it is said in Luka but we are not sure which words in it are corect.
And one of my sts asked ma'm 'is it sin if we tear and jump on a bible'
and I asked ' would you like to see anyone tear and jump on Qur'an?' ' you don't have to believe in other people's holy things but you have to respect them if you want them to respect your holly things.'
he blushed and said he'll never do a such an action again.

regards

Sister, you make a good point. The Bible should be treated respectfully, because I believe that there are some remnants of Allah's Message retained in it.

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

Hi Everyone:

The Koran appears to suggest that Muslims should read the Books of the people

which verse u r talking about ? I don't think Quran is suggesting that we SHOULD read Torah , Psalm or Injeel .

But personally i think Muslims must read OT & other holy books for comparison.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

... one of my sts asked ma'm 'is it sin if we tear and jump on a bible'
and I asked ' would you like to see anyone tear and jump on Qur'an?' ' you don't have to believe in other people's holy things but you have to respect them if you want them to respect your holly things.'
he blushed and said he'll never do a such an action again.

regards

lovely....thanks for sharing this :statisfie

[A-Way-Of-Life]

Didn’t one of the companions of the prophet (PBUH) have a piece of the torah, and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told him to destroy it? I think this proves the Muslims should not read any of the previous altered scriptures.

[Walter]

Hi A Way of Life:

Can you please provide evidence from the Koran of this incident?

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Let me conclude this thread for completeness.

1. From our discussions it appears that Mohammed wanted Muslims to read the Books that came before.

2. These Books were available at the time of Mohammed and are therefore available to us today in the Bible.

3. Mohammed obviously knew that the original Books were unavailable, but he had sufficient confidence in the copies to recommend their use.

The question that begs an answer is: Why would Mohammed ask his followers to read the Books which came before? The obvious answer is: in order to understand the Koran in its entirety.

As explained in a previous thread, Christians can never hope to understand certain concepts stated in the Gospels without reading the Old Testament Books sent to the Israelites where such concepts are fully explained. Similarly, Muslims can only speculate about certain concepts that are introduced in the Koran until they read the Books sent before which explains them.

It would appear that Muslim teachers have deliberately kept Muslims away from the Books that were sent before; perhaps for fear that they may convert to Judaism or Christianity? It should be noted that Christians do not read the Old Testament in order to convert to Judaism, and I am aware of no Christian that has ever converted to Judaism through reading the Israelite or Jewish scriptures.

Regards,
Grenville

[nocturne]

Hi Everyone:

Let me conclude this thread for completeness.

1. From our discussions it appears that Mohammed wanted Muslims to read the Books that came before.

2. These Books were available at the time of Mohammed and are therefore available to us today in the Bible.

3. Mohammed obviously knew that the original Books were unavailable, but he had sufficient confidence in the copies to recommend their use.

Regards,
Grenville

When was the bible compiled?

Before the Bible was compiled, there were many other gospels which were rejected by the church.The bible that is here today, might not be the one that existed during their time.


Have a look at this documentary => Banned from the Bible (please use Bittorrent to download the file)

[Curaezipirid]

Hi Everyone:

Let me conclude this thread for completeness.

1. From our discussions it appears that Mohammed wanted Muslims to read the Books that came before.

2. These Books were available at the time of Mohammed and are therefore available to us today in the Bible.

3. Mohammed obviously knew that the original Books were unavailable, but he had sufficient confidence in the copies to recommend their use.

The question that begs an answer is: Why would Mohammed ask his followers to read the Books which came before? The obvious answer is: in order to understand the Koran in its entirety.

As explained in a previous thread, Christians can never hope to understand certain concepts stated in the Gospels without reading the Old Testament Books sent to the Israelites where such concepts are fully explained. Similarly, Muslims can only speculate about certain concepts that are introduced in the Koran until they read the Books sent before which explains them.

It would appear that Muslim teachers have deliberately kept Muslims away from the Books that were sent before; perhaps for fear that they may convert to Judaism or Christianity? It should be noted that Christians do not read the Old Testament in order to convert to Judaism, and I am aware of no Christian that has ever converted to Judaism through reading the Israelite or Jewish scriptures.

Regards,
Grenville

If Mohammed was not himself educated by reading Torah and Gospel, then Arch Angel Gabriel would have admonished him only to WRITE! rather than to READ!!!

And surely if Islam can have kept accurately copies of Qur'an, then we at least also have Torah and Gospel from the time of Mohammed.

Then there is also the Roman slave born a Jew who is named Josephus, and who gives historical evidence of Isa's life, within the life times of those a witness to Isa.

And also those who call themselves Christian but are not believers, like to try to admonish Muslims by reference to the Dead Sea Scrolls. But within the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as being an old indeed copy of Torah, there is the empirical evidence of Shaytan among Jews who did act to corrupt what Jesus accomplished. The Dead Sea Scrolls give evidence that a Jew had attempted to use the Arc of Covenant to try to prove that Jesus could not possibly have intended that we must follow his example in death so in life. Islam has always heralded that the error was caused by a shaytan, and that it is able to be amended. It is quite miraculous that the dead sea scrolls survive and provided evidence of the fact of what had happened even during Jesus own life time as the shaytan effort to prevent him. I was shown the evidence from dead sea scrolls which shaytan try to use to discredit Jesus, by an active Rosicrucian and one of their lectures, (but that has been a very expensive process, to obtain such evidence of what had been preventing Isa before Islam corrected the sihr used against him). The Synagogue of Satan is not called that without reason, but the true believing Jews will surely all now become Muslim, because their way has been to wait until all of Shari'ah is truly within Arc of Covenant. Judaism is so strong a Religion and a real Jews belief in God so basic, that they simple can not shake what is in Arc of Covenant in any moment, and so can not be Muslim until Shari'ah is in Arc.

There are shaytan also who have been knowingly trying to prevent that such take place, by preventing that a witness is able to bear witness to the necessary burnt offerings, as Law for is written about in Torah. But conveniently, the AHadith alongside Qur'an are enough to be witness, so any Mujahideen might openly burn any copy of any part of Shari'ah, and watch to see how hot the fire becomes, so as to know if the full Law is in Arc of Covenant yet. It is enabled by a specific Law, which has part about mothers and children.

Can anybody find the full textual references for this thread?

wasalam

[Curaezipirid]

If Mohammed was not himself educated by reading Torah and Gospel, then Arch Angel Gabriel would have admonished him only to WRITE! rather than to READ!!!

And surely if Islam can have kept accurately copies of Qur'an, then we at least also have Torah and Gospel from the time of Mohammed.

Then there is also the Roman slave born a Jew who is named Josephus, and who gives historical evidence of Isa's life, within the life times of those a witness to Isa.

And also those who call themselves Christian but are not believers, like to try to admonish Muslims by reference to the Dead Sea Scrolls. But within the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as being an old indeed copy of Torah, there is the empirical evidence of Shaytan among Jews who did act to corrupt what Jesus accomplished. The Dead Sea Scrolls give evidence that a Jew had attempted to use the Arc of Covenant to try to prove that Jesus could not possibly have intended that we must follow his example in death so in life. Islam has always heralded that the error was caused by a shaytan, and that it is able to be amended. It is quite miraculous that the dead sea scrolls survive and provided evidence of the fact of what had happened even during Jesus own life time as the shaytan effort to prevent him. I was shown the evidence from dead sea scrolls which shaytan try to use to discredit Jesus, by an active Rosicrucian and one of their lectures, (but that has been a very expensive process, to obtain such evidence of what had been preventing Isa before Islam corrected the sihr used against him). The Synagogue of Satan is not called that without reason, but the true believing Jews will surely all now become Muslim, because their way has been to wait until all of Shari'ah is truly within Arc of Covenant. Judaism is so strong a Religion and a real Jews belief in God so basic, that they simple can not shake what is in Arc of Covenant in any moment, and so can not be Muslim until Shari'ah is in Arc.

There are shaytan also who have been knowingly trying to prevent that such take place, by preventing that a witness is able to bear witness to the necessary burnt offerings, as Law for is written about in Torah. But conveniently, the AHadith alongside Qur'an are enough to be witness, so any Mujahideen might openly burn any copy of any part of Shari'ah, and watch to see how hot the fire becomes, so as to know if the full Law is in Arc of Covenant yet. It is enabled by a specific Law, which has part about mothers and children.

Can anybody find the full textual references for this thread?

wasalam

Now thinking more clearly it is that I am totally certain that where Islamic text refers to the fact that Muslims might not trust the earlier texts, it is a direct reference to the fact of the corruption placed into the Dead Sea Scrolls. As far as I can ascertain the Dead Sea Scrolls might well be relatively accurate in Torah, but not in Gospel.

[Balthasar21]

Now thinking more clearly it is that I am totally certain that where Islamic text refers to the fact that Muslims might not trust the earlier texts, it is a direct reference to the fact of the corruption placed into the Dead Sea Scrolls. As far as I can ascertain the Dead Sea Scrolls might well be relatively accurate in Torah, but not in Gospel.

The Bible / Torah Is A Copy Of The Dead Sea Scroll .

[Curaezipirid]

The Bible / Torah Is A Copy Of The Dead Sea Scroll .

Torah as in the first five chapters of the old testament as we have it in modern translations, is a copy of the same documents that a small portion of the dead sea scrolls are also a copy of.

But Gospel is not accurately transcribed in the dead sea scrolls.

In the dead sea scrolls it says that Jesus could not possibly have wanted us to follow him in death so as to follow him in life, but that is exactly what he requested of his disciples as the method of attaining everlasting life.

[Walter]

Hi Nocturne:

Since Mohammed appeared to have interacted with Jewish religious leaders and monks, we can reasonably assume that the entire Old testament was available to him as well as the new testament from either the Codex Vaticanus (300 AD), the Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), or the Codex Alexandrinus (450 AD).

The information within them can be confirmed with earlier manuscripts like the Nash Papyrus that contains the 10 commandments and was dated 2nd century BC, the Dead Sea Scrolls which contain around 25 books of the Old Testament and were dated 2nd century BC to 1st century AD, and the Papyrus Bodmer (p66) II which contains most of the Gospel of John and dated 125 AD.

The Bibles therefore contain sufficient reliable information to explain concepts that are simply introduced but not explained in the Qu’ran.

Regards,
Grenville

[Philosopher]

Since Mohammed appeared to have interacted with Jewish religious leaders and monks, we can reasonably assume that the entire Old testament was available to him as well as the new testament from either the Codex Vaticanus (300 AD), the Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), or the Codex Alexandrinus (450 AD).

The same can be said about Paul and Jesus. It's remarkable how Jesus is similar to Dionysis, Mithras, and Krishna.

The Bibles therefore contain sufficient reliable information to explain concepts that are simply introduced but not explained in the Qu’ran.

They would disagree with you

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle574768.ece

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

[doorster]

Recite!!!! as I would do when I was taught. Qari recited a verse, I followed thereafter.

Jibra'il recited, thereafter RasulAllah would follow.

No Read! but Recite

[Woodrow]

Do not be too hard on the Sister. Jibreel did admonish him to Read. It is true that Muhammad(PBUH) could not read but for some reason Jibreel was demanding that Muhammad(PBUH) READ






Shahi Bukhari.
Book 1. Revelation.


Volumn 001, Book 001, Hadith Number 003.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

[Woodrow]

[QUOTE=Curaezipirid;772724]If Mohammed was not himself educated by reading Torah and Gospel, then Arch Angel Gabriel would have admonished him only to WRITE! rather than to READ!!!


:sl:

Please read the Hadith I posted above. Although the Angel did admonish Muhammad(PBUH) to read, he could not read and told the Angel that he could not. So, Muhammad(PBUH) did not educate himself by reading the Torah and/or the Bible.

[doorster]

:sl:

I am sorry but I can not soften my post above due to limitations of my account type so it is up to you to adjust it as you see fit.

I would, however, like to add that I do not have much (nearly zero) knowledge of hadiths in English. I really do believe that اقرأ means recite and قراءة means read

and I am also confused about instruction/order to read in absence of any written text being present at that moment like like tablets of Hazrat Musa Alaislam. and I am also confused about Hazrat Jibra'il Alaislam not knowing the fact that Hazrat Muhammad PBUH could not read.

I will consult with my father when I go to visit this weekend and get back to you on monday.

:w:

[Woodrow]

:sl:

I am sorry but I can not soften my post above due to limitations of my account type so it is up to you to adjust it as you see fit.

I would, however, like to add that I do not have much (nearly zero) knowledge of hadiths in English. I really do believe that اقرأ means recite and قراءة means read

and I am also confused about instruction/order to read in absence of any written text being present at that moment like like tablets of Hazrat Musa Alaislam. and I am also confused about Hazrat Jibra'il Alaislam not knowing the fact that Hazrat Muhammad PBUH could not read.

I will consult with my father when I go to visit this weekend and get back to you on monday.

:w:

:w:

My Arabic is a little rusty but I believe قراءة means reading. and اقرأ means both read or Recite.

I do speak the Moroccan dialect to some extent and sometimes I do find some differences from other dialects.

What makes me believe that read is meant is because Muhammad(PBUH) answered "I do not know how to read." which would not make sense if the angel had told him to recite. And it would make even less sence if the reply was translated as ""I do not know how to recite." read is the only word that seems to makes sense in both places.

[doorster]

:sl:
What is most shocking for me is, me being ignorant and not even knowing it, as I am only a Qari and did not learn Hadith knowlege at all, as I follow and practice whatever I am told by by my parent and never had cause to question them until today. I just go to work come home and spend any spare time on reciting. And that is my life.

:w:

[doorster]

forgot to say that Arabic is not my first language but 4th, know Just enough to get by and understand what is written but not enogh to talk to an Arab

[Woodrow]

forgot to say that Arabic is not my first language but 4th, know Just enough to get by and understand what is written but not enogh to talk to an Arab

N'cal B'el Arbeea wellakeen ma N'araf shee.

(I speak Arabic, but I don't understand it) :D

Many people do not read the Ahadith. I find that while The Qur'an tells me what Islam is, the Ahadith and Sunnah tells me how Muhammad(PBUH) followed it. although the Ahadith are not the word of Allah(swt) They are eyewitness reports of what Muhammad(PBUH) did and said. to obey the Ahadith is to live as Muhammad(PBUH) did.

[MuhammadRizan]

:sl:

Since Mohammed appeared to have interacted with Jewish religious leaders and monks, we can reasonably assume that the entire Old testament was available to him as well as the new testament from either the Codex Vaticanus (300 AD), the Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD), or the Codex Alexandrinus (450 AD).

i think that's why Allah last appointed messenger is illiterate, to prevent allegation, assumption.

I would, however, like to add that I do not have much (nearly zero) knowledge of hadiths in English. I really do believe that اقرأ means recite and قراءة means read

Qara'a means read, Iqra' means read to but it's fiil amr.
my english is rusty, isn't read and recite is just the same?

[doorster]

N'cal B'el Arbeea wellakeen ma N'araf shee.

(I speak Arabic, but I don't understand it) :D

Many people do not read the Ahadith. I find that while The Qur'an tells me what Islam is, the Ahadith and Sunnah tells me how Muhammad(PBUH) followed it. although the Ahadith are not the word of Allah(swt) They are eyewitness reports of what Muhammad(PBUH) did and said. to obey the Ahadith is to live as Muhammad(PBUH) did.

:sl:

I am being taught that Not every single Hadith is to be followed regardless of chain of narrators. He told me that for example It is Sunat-e-RasulAllah to drink while seated but there is an authentic hadith which tells of a story of RasulAllah drinking on the go or stood up (not too sure now, but probably due to some kind of urgency).

his point being that we do not get ajr/sawab/reward for doing the same.
also the way we know the number of wives of RasulAllah is thru hadith. But we are only allowed one and if we can afford to be just to more than 1, number is still not the same

He teaches me that hadith and Sunat-e-RasulAllah are 2 distinct and different things.

Since I am no Muhaddith, I can't argue here at forum or at home, but I certainly will try to read up as well as consult with people and be back here for Monday if the thread is still open by then.

jazak Allah khayr for all help :w:

[doorster]

:sl:



i think that's why Allah last appointed messenger is illiterate, to prevent allegation, assumption.



Qara'a means read, Iqra' means read to but it's fiil amr.
my english is rusty, isn't read and recite is just the same?

:sl:

Well not accordig to my Qari. When I was learnig, whenever I would start reading like you would a story book, I was given a clip round the earhole with a shout of Recite
:w:

[MuhammadRizan]

salam,

hmm..i see

[doorster]

:sl:

Well not accordig to my Qari. When I was learnig, whenever I would start reading like you would a story book, I was given a clip round the earhole with a shout of Recite
:w:

so I started to believe that reading was something you do with a letter, book and suchlike and recite was when you could pretend to be like abdal basit with or without a book

[muthenna]

First, islamically, We as muslims believe in other prophets and revelations( not necessarily books), but theyve all been abbrogated by the quran and the prophethood of Muhamed a.s. ; so the only accepted guidance is the one from the last prophet uhamed a.s.
Quran recognizes the Injil(gospel) and tawrah (torah) not this bible, the current bible wasnt in this form, Jesus didnt go and proclaim gospel of mark, john and others and certainly not the Pauls letters. These gospels are the biography of jesus life during 2 weeks or so, and not the revelation of god to jesus. This is the problem of understanding of christians whats the word of god. WE as muslims say quran is the literal word of god: Allah-to Gabriel-to Muhamed, for ex. Say (o muhamed to the them): he Allah is one! (ihlas).
WE have also the other type of revelation - the hadith-sayings of prophet Muhamed a.s. These are revaleation but the words are of Muhamed a.s.
The name bible is not mentioned in the bible, the name christianity is not mentioned by jesus and so on.
The fact that the bible has been corrupted is well known and acknowledged by christian scholars as Raymond Brown. He states there were intetnional and unintentional mistakes by the scribes-leave alone the unintentional, the intentional mistakes have been made because of doctrinal nature.
Ex. the verse of ther trinity- in the epistle of john (that said that there were three that bear witness, the father, son and holy ghost, and they are one) i forgot what verse it was,sorry,-this verse has been removed as a forgery, so those of you who say that the bible was the same from the time of jesus this one verse alteration or forgery is enough of a fact.
So, in start we as muslims, say that the bible is not the word of god but has some truth in it, what matches with the quran is true and what does not its not true

[Walter]

Hi Dorster:

What Gabriel told Mohammed to do is for Mohammed to do. What you must decide is: what are you supposed to do?

Mohammed had Gabriel to teach him. Who is to teach you?

The Qu’ran contains much information. Some of it is explained entirely and therefore no other source is required. However, some information is only presented or introduced and is not explained. The Qu’ran instructs Muslims to read and believe the Books sent before which are found in the Bible. Why? I believe he instructed them in order to understand the concepts that are introduced but not explained in the Qu’ran.

As previously explained, I am fully aware of the hesitancy that a person would feel if they were constantly being told that the Bible was corrupted. However, Mohammed had sufficient confidence in the books in the Bible of his day (600 AD) to instruct Muslims to read it.

Hi Woodrow:

I must start reading those Hadiths.

Regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

Hi Grenville,

Yes, the hadith are very interesting and they do make much of Islam understandable. In my opinion, it is important for a reader of the Hadith to be able to understand how they relate to the Qur'an.

It is essential to know if any hadith are Authentic and also the level of reliability.

The Hadith are not the Word of Allah(swt) and as such are not protected to the same degree the as the Qur'an. However, there are some Books that are considered by most if not all Muslims to be Authentic and of the highest level of reliability. Those we are obligated to adhere to..

Here is an excellent site for learning a bit more about them.

although the various hadith can be traced to there source by clicking on them the final source will be shown in the original Arabic. That is a drawback for the site as it makes it difficult for a non Arabic speaker to find out what book each is from.

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/

( I have found this to be a very reliable site and so far to me it appears to be showing real Islamic belief. If some one finds error on that site, Please point if out and I will delete the link, unless your a mod, then you may do so.)

[islamirama]

Hi Dorster:

What Gabriel told Mohammed to do is for Mohammed to do. What you must decide is: what are you supposed to do?

Mohammed had Gabriel to teach him. Who is to teach you?


Regards,
Grenville

Gabriel taught Mohammad *S* becuase there was no one else with knoweldge to do that and becuase that is the job of the Archangel as a Messenger between prophets and Allah.

As for who will teach us? it is Mohammad *S*, he has left sunnah(way of life) as an example for us to follow and live by. We dont' need another teacher with special powers to guide us as only Allah guides and He has given us Mohammad *S* as a best example to follow.


Here's some info of interest:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said,
"All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 384

check out the science of hadith and its validity and research and classificaion and how it was obtained.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...dith/atit.html


Here's some Quranic verses:

Obey the Messenger
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[3] AL-Imran:
3:132
And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.

-------------------------------------------------
[4] An-Nisa:
4:13
Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

* 4:14 *
But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4:42
On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: But never will they hide a single fact from Allah.

4:59
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

4:64
We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the leave of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

4:69
All who obey Allah and the messenger are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the Sincere (lovers of Truth), the martyrs, and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! How beautiful is there fellowship!


4:80
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over them.


* 4:115 *
If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge!


-------------------------------------------------
[5] Al-Mida:
5:92
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.


-------------------------------------------------
[8] Al-Anfl:
8:20
O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

8:46
And obey Allah and His Messenger. and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere:


-------------------------------------------------
[9] Al-Tauba:
9:62
To you they swear by Allah in order to please you: But it is more fitting that they should please Allah and His Messenger, if they are Believers.

*9:63*
Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, is the Fire of Hell?- wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.


9:80
Whether thou ask for their forgiveness, or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them: because they have rejected Allah and His Messenger. and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious.


-------------------------------------------------
[24] An-Nur:
24:52
It is such as obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will triumph,

24:54
Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

24:56
So establish regular prayer and give Zakaat; and obey the Messenger. that ye may receive mercy.


-------------------------------------------------
[33] Al-Azab:
33:33
And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular prayer, and give Zakaat; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

*33:36*
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

33:66
The Day that their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Woe to us! Would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!"


-------------------------------------------------
[47] Muhammad:
47:33
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!


-------------------------------------------------
[48] Victory:
48:17
No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): but he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Chastisement.


-------------------------------------------------
[58] Al-Mujadila:
58:13
Is it that ye are afraid of spending sums in charity before your private consultation (with him)? If, then, ye do not so, and Allah forgives you, then (at least) establish regular prayer; give Zakaat; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.


-------------------------------------------------
[59] Al-Hashr:
59:7
...So take what the Messenger gives you, and refrain from what he prohibits you. And fear Allah: for Allah is strict in Punishment.


-------------------------------------------------
[64] At-Taghabun:
64:12
So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.


-------------------------------------------------
[72] Al-Jinn:
72:23
"Unless I deliver what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."

The Qu’ran contains much information. Some of it is explained entirely and therefore no other source is required. However, some information is only presented or introduced and is not explained. The Qu’ran instructs Muslims to read and believe the Books sent before which are found in the Bible. Why? I believe he instructed them in order to understand the concepts that are introduced but not explained in the Qu’ran.

As previously explained, I am fully aware of the hesitancy that a person would feel if they were constantly being told that the Bible was corrupted. However, Mohammed had sufficient confidence in the books in the Bible of his day (600 AD) to instruct Muslims to read it.

Islamic scholars are well versed and who have memorized volumes of hadith and quran and have studied islamic history, life of the prophet, companions, and everything else to help us understand what we dont' understand with the limited knowledge we have. It's one of the ways Islam has stayed unchanged, we are not left to our own interpretations of the book like the people of the book did but rather are told to seek knowledge by the learned men (scholars).

As for reading the bible, Muslims are not obligated to read the bible. They are obligated to believe in it as one of the books of revelations and nothing more.


Narrated Ubaidullah bin Abdullah bin Utba:

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

Sahi Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 850

[Walter]

Very Good Hi Islamirama:

You acknowledge that Muhammad is to teach you. Well why do you refuse to do as he has instructed you.

He instructed Muslims to read the Books that were sent before. He knew of these Books and had sufficient confidence in them to recommend them to Muslims. However, your Islamic tradition teaches you that the Books which Mohammed recommended that you should read were corrupted.

So who is teaching you - Islamic tradition or Mohammed? You can choose to follow Islamic tradition; I will follow Mohammed in this regard.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Grenville.

[YusufNoor]

So, to make your claim of tampering credible you will have to answer these questions:

# When happened this tampering? [Before or after Muhammad]?
# Who did the tampering?
# Where was it done? [city, country, ...?]
# What parts of the text were changed?
# How was it done [i.e. without leaving traces of it]?
# Why would anybody do this incredibly difficult thing?

The Qur'an calls on Christians to adhere to the Scriptures that they possessed. There are also verses in the Qur'an which state that John the Baptist and Jesus were taught the Torah by Allah. Add to this the fact that we have in our possession the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint which predate John and Jesus' birth by some 200 years. Thus it is easy to demonstrate (for anyone who is willing to examine the facts) that according to the Islamic worldview and the manuscript evidence, it is impossible for the Bible to have been corrupted.

:sl:

The Qur'an calls on Christians to adhere to the Scriptures that they possessed.

actually, It calls for them to follow the original message, Christ's Injeel, not someone elses' gospel.

There are also verses in the Qur'an which state that John the Baptist and Jesus were taught the Torah by Allah.If this is the case, then the Torah was still intact (according to the Qur'an) during the first century.

actually, if the Torah were intact, they could've been taught by any Torah sage. if Allah(swt) had to teach them, it indicates to me that the original was no longer available.

Add to this the fact that we have in our possession the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint which predate John and Jesus' birth by some 200 years. Thus it is easy to demonstrate (for anyone who is willing to examine the facts) that according to the Islamic worldview and the manuscript evidence, it is impossible for the Bible to have been corrupted

actually, all this proves is that we have intact most of the OT written and edited by Ezra and Nehemiah both during and after the Babylonian captivity.

THUS, we cannot prove that we have anything near the originals of either the Jewish books or Christian book, but as we are certain that we have the original Qur'an we aren't bothered by this equation, nor do we nor can we prove ANYTHING to disbelievers. we can only tell them the Truth and either Allah(SWT) guides them or He(SWT) doesn't.

So, to make your claim of tampering credible you will have to answer these questions:

the ONLY question for Muslims was "what was the state of Christianity by the time of the Rasulullah(saws)?" nothing else really matters, the details aren't important because the final Messenger(pbuh) came with the final Message. we follow that! if it were the Rasulullah's job to piece together the original Torah and Gospel, he(pbuh) would have done so. it is a bit more easier to just submit to Islam as perfected by Allah(SWT) and His Messenger(pbuh) than play 40 questions that are no longer neccessary.

if someone DESIRES to follow what their fathers followed MORE than they are interested in the Truth, we can only help them if Allah(SWT) wills!

:w:

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

isn't the original injeel suppose to be in aramaic? and it's lost?

[vpb]

190 replies to answer just a single question??? :p :p ;D;D

[islamirama]

190 replies to answer just a single question??? :p :p ;D;D

tell me about it, some ppl just have nothing to do i guess.

salam.

isn't the original injeel suppose to be in aramaic? and it's lost?

Does the Gospel that was written in Aramaic exist today?

Very Good Hi Islamirama:

You acknowledge that Muhammad is to teach you. Well why do you refuse to do as he has instructed you.

He instructed Muslims to read the Books that were sent before. He knew of these Books and had sufficient confidence in them to recommend them to Muslims. However, your Islamic tradition teaches you that the Books which Mohammed recommended that you should read were corrupted.

So who is teaching you - Islamic tradition or Mohammed? You can choose to follow Islamic tradition; I will follow Mohammed in this regard.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Grenville.

Islamic tradition is built on Islam, that means the Quran and the Sunnah (way of the prophet). So I chose to follow Islamic tradition becuase i'm following Islam and whatever Mohammad (saws) said is in that tradition. I don't know where you read that he said to read the bible or anything, but we are not required nor do we need to read those books as they are been outdated and a new version (quran) has been given us to replace the old one. Here is your answer from an islamic scholar, after this there is no need for any discussion as things are quite clear to us.

--------------------

Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permitted to have any of the books prior to Islam because of the following :

- Anything helpful in them Allah illustrated in the Qur’an.

- The Qur’an contains what makes one in no need of such books.

Allah, Subhanahu Wata’ala, says, “It is He who has sent down the Book ( the Qur’an ) to you ( Mohammad ) in truth, confirming what came before it. “ therefore, everything useful in these Books is mentioned in the Qur’an.

With regard to the second question (bible accurate), the words sent by Allah to Jesus and of which we may benefit are already in the Qur’an. Furthermore, the existing Bible is distorted, for there are four different scripts, each of which is violating the others. But seekers of knowledge who have the sight of differentiate between truth and wrong can study these books to refute what evil they include.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen may Allaah have mercy on him.


al-Da’wah magazine, no. 1789, p. 43.

[Walter]

Hi Islamirama & Vpb:

I suppose that we can simply agree to disagree. If you read this thread, you will see several verses in the Qu’ran that clearly instruct Muslims to read, not simply believe, but to read the Books that came before.

You are dismissing Mohammed’s instruction by claiming that the Books are unavailable and corrupted. However, clear identifiable proof has been presented in this thread to show that while the original manuscripts may have disintegrated, Mohammed had sufficient confidence in the copies to recommend that they be read. You were pointed to the British Library to view the books that were around before Mohammed if you were in doubt. But rather than view the evidence, you appear to close your eyes, plug your ears and illogically and inexplicably repeat that the Books are unavailable and corrupted.

Islamirama & Vpb, our aim should be to know the truth. If we are indeed seekers of the truth, then we must be prepared to choose God’s commands when they conflict with religious tradition. It is clear that you are instructed to read the Books that were sent before, regardless of their state of corruption. You should be aware that any corruption is minor and insignificant. The little mistakes do not detract from the message in the scriptures.

You should also be aware of Mohammed’s and Jesus’ anger towards those who lead other’s astray. If you have already chosen the way of tradition, then please do not dissuade those who are seeking after an Abrahamic type of relationship with God, for they will certainly not find it in any tradition whether Islamic or Christian, although those traditions can point persons in the right direction.

Islamirama & Vpb, it is time to graduate.

Regards,
Grenville

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Grenville.
I haven't followed this thread, and at 13 pages I have no intentions to start reading it now. however I will repond on that last post. I don't know which verses you are refering to, but I know of no verse that instructs us to read the bible. I know of verses that speak of it yes, but there's a difference between mentioning it and telling people to go read it.

[vpb]

Hi Islamirama & Vpb:

I suppose that we can simply agree to disagree. If you read this thread, you will see several verses in the Qu’ran that clearly instruct Muslims to read, not simply believe, but to read the Books that came before.

You are dismissing Mohammed’s instruction by claiming that the Books are unavailable and corrupted. However, clear identifiable proof has been presented in this thread to show that while the original manuscripts may have disintegrated, Mohammed had sufficient confidence in the copies to recommend that they be read. You were pointed to the British Library to view the books that were around before Mohammed if you were in doubt. But rather than view the evidence, you appear to close your eyes, plug your ears and illogically and inexplicably repeat that the Books are unavailable and corrupted.

Islamirama & Vpb, our aim should be to know the truth. If we are indeed seekers of the truth, then we must be prepared to choose God’s commands when they conflict with religious tradition. It is clear that you are instructed to read the Books that were sent before, regardless of their state of corruption. You should be aware that any corruption is minor and insignificant. The little mistakes do not detract from the message in the scriptures.

You should also be aware of Mohammed’s and Jesus’ anger towards those who lead other’s astray. If you have already chosen the way of tradition, then please do not dissuade those who are seeking after an Abrahamic type of relationship with God, for they will certainly not find it in any tradition whether Islamic or Christian, although those traditions can point persons in the right direction.

Islamirama & Vpb, it is time to graduate.

Regards,
Grenville

How do you know it says to read Bible whether it is corrupted or not? have you studied any Tafsir of Qur'an???

I understand you Grenville, but the thing in Islam is that we don't just read the verse and try to tell people what it is saying, especially when we try to do it with translated verses, which is a fatal way of trying to tell ppl what Qur'an is saying. I see many christians come to me and say "look, it says in the Qur'an, that christians and jews will go to heaven", but actually the comment of that verse is different, and has conditions.

In order for us to know what Allah swt meant by that verse, we have to check the Tafsir of Qur'an, we can't just come on to conclusions, and just say "oh it says to read previous scriptures, let's do it", plus Qur'an is not mentioning anything about "even if it is corrupted , read it". So let's please not try to comment verses of the Qur'an. That's why ppl spent lives , just to comment some verses.

Please let us be careful.

[vpb]

Greenville, can you please paste the verses in here, the ones that you think command muslims to read the Bible.

[Walter]

Hi Abdul Fattah & Vpb:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Vpb:

I am ignorant of this Tafsir of Qur'an. Please direct me to a reputable source. Would you recommend that I read this before the Hadiths?

Regards,
Grenville

[vpb]

I am ignorant of this Tafsir of Qur'an. Please direct me to a reputable source. Would you recommend that I read this before the Hadiths?

You can't just go take a book of hadiths and read them and say "ok , this is this and this is that", bc hadiths need commenting also. if you read a book with hadiths & its comments, than that's fine, but not a book with only hadiths, bc hadiths might apply to different events, person or group, might be abrogated etc....

http://www.tafsir.com/ this is the tafsir of ibn kathir. one of the most popular tafsirs. but I would recommend u not to read it, bc I don't think the tafsir are supposed to be for non-muslims. It's more for students who study islam.

please anyone can shed light on this thing.

[Balthasar21]

Hi Abdul Fattah & Vpb:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Regards,
Grenville

Things that make one go hummmmmmmmmm:)

[vpb]

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

{ يَا أَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ آمِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَٱلْكِتَابِ ٱلَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَٱلْكِتَابِ ٱلَّذِيۤ أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِٱللَّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيداً }

(O ye who believe) O you who believed on the day of the covenant and disbelieved thereafter! (Believe) now (in Allah and His messenger) it is also said that Allah called them by the name of their forefathers who had believed in the past. This verse was revealed regarding 'Abdullah Ibn Salam, Asad and Usayd the sons of Ka'b, Tha'labah Ibn Qays and Salam and Salamah, the nephews of 'Abdullah Ibn Salam, and Yamin Ibn Yamin. These were the believers from among the people of the Torah. It was said about them: O you who believe in Moses and the Torah, believe in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger) Muhammad, i.e. the Qur'an, (and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime) before Muhammad and the Qur'an upon all past prophets. (Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day) resurrection after death, (he verily hath wandered far astray.) When this verse was revealed all the people mentioned above embraced Islam.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

6:155

{ وَهَـٰذَا كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَاهُ مُبَارَكٌ فَٱتَّبِعُوهُ وَٱتَّقُواْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ }

(And this is a blessed) comprises mercy and forgiveness for the person who believes (Scripture) i.e. the Qur'an (which We have revealed) which We have sent Gabriel with (So follow it) follow its lawful and unlawful, commands and prohibitions (and ward off (evil)) ward off other than it, (that ye may find mercy) and not be tormented.


6:156

{ أَن تَقُولُوۤاْ إِنَّمَآ أُنزِلَ ٱلْكِتَابُ عَلَىٰ طَآئِفَتَيْنِ مِن قَبْلِنَا وَإِن كُنَّا عَن دِرَاسَتِهِمْ لَغَافِلِينَ }

(Lest ye should say) so that you will not say, O people of Mecca, on the Day of Judgement: (The Scripture was revealed only to two sects) the people of two religions (before us) i.e. the Jews and Christians, (and we in sooth were unaware) ignorant (of what they read) their reading of the Torah and the Gospel;

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

{ إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا ٱلتَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا ٱلنَّبِيُّونَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَٱلأَحْبَارُ بِمَا ٱسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَابِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَآءَ فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ ٱلنَّاسَ وَٱخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِآيَاتِي ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْكَافِرُونَ }

(Lo! We did reveal the Torah) to Moses, (wherein is guidance) from error (and a light) the explanation of stoning, (by which) by the Torah (the Prophets who surrendered (unto Allah)) those who surrendered to Allah from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus, in the interval of which there were 1,000 prophets (judged the Jews) the forefathers who were Jews, (and the rabbis) He says: those who judged between them were the godly men of knowledge and the ascetics (and the priests) all the other men of knowledge ((judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe) by that which they acted upon and called other people to, as in the Book of Allah, (and thereunto) i.e. about the legal ruling of stoning (were they witnesses. So fear not mankind) regarding the display of the traits and description of Muhammad and the legal ruling of stoning, (but fear Me) for concealing them. (And barter not My revelations) through concealment of the traits and description of Muhammad (pbuh) and the verse of stoning (for a little gain) for a paltry portion in your means of living. (Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed) Allah says: whoever does not show that which Allah has shown in the Torah regarding the traits and description of Muhammad and the verse of stoning: (such are disbelievers) in Allah, the messenger and the Scripture.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

{ وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعَيسَى ٱبْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ ٱلإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ }

(And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him) as regards the declaration of Allah's divine Oneness and some laws, (and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance) from error (and a light) an exposition on stoning, (confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah) regarding Allah's divine Oneness and the legal ruling of stoning (a guidance) from error (and an admonition unto) and a caution for (those who ward off (evil)) those who ward off disbelief, idolatry and indecencies.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

{ وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِٱلْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَيْهِ فَٱحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ ٱلْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجاً وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَـٰكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَىٰ الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعاً فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ }

(And unto the have We revealed the Scripture) We have sent you Gabriel with the Qur'an (with the Truth) to make plain the Truth and falsehood, (confirming) the statement of Allah's divine Oneness and some laws (whatever Scripture was before it) whatever Scriptures were before it, (and a watcher over it) a witness upon all the Scriptures before it; it is also said: a witness upon the ruling of stoning; and it is also said: a watcher over all previous Scriptures. (So judge between them) between the Banu Qurayzah and the Banu'l-Nadir and the people of Khaybar (by that which Allah hath revealed) by that which Allah has exposited to you in the Qur'an, (and follow not their desires) regarding the application of whipping and discarding stoning (away from the Truth which hath come unto thee) after the exposition that has come to you. (For each We have appointed a divine law) for each prophet among you We have exposited a divine law (and a traced out way) obligations and practices. (Had Allah willed He could have made you one community) He has made you follow one divine law. (But that He may try you) test you (by that which He hath given you) of Scripture, obligations and practices, such that He says: I have prescribed all this for you, so let not delusion creep into your minds. (So vie one with another in good works) so vie, O Community of Muhammad (pbuh) with other nations, in obligations, practices and righteous works; it is also said that this means: hasten, O Community of Muhammad (pbuh) to perform acts of obedience. (Unto Allah ye will all) all nations (return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ) where you contravene in relation to religion and divine laws.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

{ فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّآ أَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ ٱلَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ ٱلْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَآءَكَ ٱلْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمُمْتَرِينَ }

(And if thou) O Muhammad (art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee) concerning that with which We sent Gabriel, i.e. the Qur'an, (then question those who read the Scripture) i.e. the Torah ((that was) before you) 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers. The Prophet (pbuh) did not ask nor was he ever in doubt about the Qur'an. Rather, Allah was addressing with these words the people of the Prophet. (Verily the Truth from thy Lord) i.e. Gabriel with the Qur'an from your Lord, containing the events of past nations (hath come unto thee) O Muhammad. (So be not thou of the waverers) be not of the doubters.

6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

6:89

{ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ ٱلَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ ٱلْكِتَابَ وَٱلْحُكْمَ وَٱلنُّبُوَّةَ فَإِن يَكْفُرْ بِهَا هَـٰؤُلاۤءِ فَقَدْ وَكَّلْنَا بِهَا قَوْماً لَّيْسُواْ بِهَا بِكَافِرِينَ }

(Those are they) We told you about of the prophets (unto whom We gave the Scripture) which Gabriel brought down from heaven (and command) knowledge and understanding (and prophethood. But if these) the people of Mecca (disbelieve therein) in their way and religion, (then indeed We shall entrust it to) We have given success to follow the way and religion of the prophets to (a people) in Medina (who will not be disbelievers therein) in the way and religion of the prophets.


6:90

{ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ ٱلَّذِينَ هَدَى ٱللَّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ ٱقْتَدِهْ قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَىٰ لِلْعَالَمِينَ }

(Those) prophets whom We have told you about (are they whom Allah guideth) to the most noble of character traits, (so follow their guidance) follow their most noble character, such as patience, endurance, good will, contentment, and other similar traits. (Say) O Muhammad, to the people of Mecca: (I ask of you no fee) no wage (for it) for Allah's divine Oneness or for the Qur'an. (Lo! It) the Qur'an (is naught but a Reminder) an admonition (to (His) creatures) the Jinn and human beings.




From tafsir of Ibn Abbas.

[Woodrow]

Things that make one go hummmmmmmmmm:)

We do not question that the true word had been given to the Jews and the Christians. What we do believe is that what is presented today is not the word that was given to the People before, although it is labeled as such and the adherents of either or both do believe they are the same as what was given.

The problem is there is many gaps in the continuity of both and there are discrepancies between the various versions of each, that exist today.

[vpb]

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

I totally understand you ,when you make such points, but we've been trying to tell you that, the Injeel and Torah were books that Allah sent, and these books taught the same thing as Qur'an does, the Oneness of Allah. But through time these scriptures got corrupted. And that's why Qur'an was sent, to confirm these books. And there is no logic at all of following the bible or torah , bc Qur'an was sent to correct these altered scriptures? how would it make sense to leave Qur'an which was sent to do that, and start follow the nowdays bible and torah???
:)

[doorster]

ahlan

Hi Abdul Fattah & Vpb:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before. Regards,
Grenville

first of all, Do you believe in Quraan and Muhammad? if so why are you preaching to Muslims and not pagans?

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

4:136. O You who believe! believe In All&#226;h, and his Messenger, and the Book which He has sent down to his Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before, and Whosoever disbelieves In All&#226;h, his angels, his Books, his Messengers, and the Last day, Then indeed He has strayed far away.

I do not see any thing about reading here

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

6:155. and this is a blessed Book (the Qur'&#226;n) which we have sent down, so follow it and fear All&#226;h, that you may receive Mercy.
6:156. lest you (Arab pagans) should say: "The Book was only sent down to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for Our part, we were In fact unaware of what they studied."
Again, it is pagans and Not Muslims being addressed

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

perhaps you are confusing something called koran with Holy Quraan?

I shall come back to deal withthe rest of the ayaat later.

ma'asalama

edit:

I shall come back to deal with the rest of the ayaat later.

scratch that as our family, on our father's advice are blocking this site from our home computers when our computer savvy brother comes home tomorrow.

enjoy!

[MustafaMc]

Very Good Hi Islamirama:

You acknowledge that Muhammad is to teach you. Well why do you refuse to do as he has instructed you.

He instructed Muslims to read the Books that were sent before. He knew of these Books and had sufficient confidence in them to recommend them to Muslims. However, your Islamic tradition teaches you that the Books which Mohammed recommended that you should read were corrupted.

So who is teaching you - Islamic tradition or Mohammed? You can choose to follow Islamic tradition; I will follow Mohammed in this regard.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Grenville.

Grenville, I have missed this thread for quite some time. Can you quote the chapter and verse of the Quran or hadith compiler and number where you drew this conclusion. If you have already done so on another post, please refer me to it.

I just found the verses at post#198.

[vpb]

Grenville, I have missed this thread for quite some time. Can you quote the chapter and verse of the Quran or hadith compiler and number where you drew this conclusion. If you have already done so on another post, please refer me to it.

it's very common with non-muslims that they read verses and hadiths (and of course in english), and they draw conclusions.

I think to christians it doesn't matter wether an ordinary christian comments on a biblical verse. Do christians have "tafsir" of the bible?

[MustafaMc]

190 replies to answer just a single question??? :p :p ;D;D

Yes, and I have not seen a single shred of evidence to support their claims!

[MustafaMc]

Hi Abdul Fattah & Vpb:

There is an abundance of evidence in the Koran that Muslims must believe in the Books that came before.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

We believe that Allah revealed scriptures to Moses, David, and Jesus. We have fragments of these yet today that we can identify as being consistent with the Quran. To believe in the existence of His Books does not mean we should read them.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

This verse explains that the current revelation negated the pagan Arab's prior excuse before Allah that no revelation came to them. It further explains that these pagans were unacquainted with the prior revelations. It can be assumed that it applied to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prior to revelation of the Quran.

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Here it clearly states what I said above about using the Quran as the "gold standard" for comparison.

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

It seems that this verse instructs Muhammad that if he doubted where the revelations to him were coming from to ask those knowledgeable about prior revelations. The incident that comes to my mind was with the initial revelation in the Cave of Hira. Muhammad, was afterwards severely frightened and went to his wife Khadija for comfort. They soon went to Khadijah's cousin, Waraqah, a Christian who knew the scriptures. When Muhammad (pbuh) told Waraqah what happened to him, Waraqah confirmed that it was the same angel that brought revelation to Moses. (from The Sealed Nectar)

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.

6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Commentary in The Majestic Quran: "Thus the mission of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is set in context: Islam is not a departure from Allah's earlier messages to mankind, and the Prophet (pbuh) has simply been sent to remind humanity of what all the earlier Prophets (pbut) taught."

Nowhere, in any of these verses are Muslims commanded to read prior scriptures (e.g.Bible) and seek guidance from them.

[vpb]

Yes, and I have not seen a single shred of evidence to support their claims!

All verses I've seen from them are just verses that make people obligated to read Qur'an :).

[MustafaMc]

All verses I've seen from them are just verses that make people obligated to read Qur'an :).

Yes, brother, when read from the proper perspective in context of the other verses and in reference to the instances of revelation, the Quranic verses in question point to the reliance upon the Quran as the true guidance and the standard by which to judge the other scriptures.

A big difference between the Bible and the Quran is that we have record of the circumstances of revelation through hadith that sheds additional understanding on the Quran. We also have volumes of books written on the biography of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from authentic hadith that give us a detailed record of his life. In contrast we know very little about the life of Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

If you have read the NT gospels, you will know that the 4 gospels are very similar to our hadith - though not as extensive. The gospels are narratives about the life of Jesus (pbuh) with relatively few quotations. In contrast, every word of the Quran was spoken by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as communicated to him by the Angel Gabriel. I am sure that you are aware that relatively few hadith, Hadith Qudsi, are revelations of Allah that are not part of the Quran. The hadith and sunnah are very important to show us how to live our lives, but they are not, in general, considered God's Word like the Christians hold the 4 gospels and letters by Saul/Paul.

BTW I suppose that you know that they equate Muhammad (pbuh) not with Jesus (pbuh), but rather with Paul. They hold the letters (Romans, I & II Corinthians, Gallations, etc.) written by a reformed persecutor of Christians as to be the "inspired Word of God" and they hold the Quran as no more than myth and fables.

[Walter]

Hi MustafaMc and Vpb:

Thank you for your detailed responses. I had a long day and will respond to your posts tomorrow – God willing.

Regards,
Grenville

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Grenvill I will try answering by putting a tafsir (= explenation of teh Qur'an) next to the quoted verses. InshaAllah the meaning will be clear then.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

The Order to Have Faith after Believing

Allah commands His faithful servants to adhere to all the elements of faith, its branches, pillars and cornerstones. This is not stated as mere redundancy, but from the view of completing faith and the continual maintenence of it. For instance, the believer proclaims in every prayer,

[اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ ]

(Guide us to the straight way.) which means, make us aware of the straight path and increase us in guidance and strengthen us on it. In this Ayah [4:136], Allah commands the believers to believe in Him and in His Messenger, just as He said elsewhere,

[يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ اتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَءَامِنُواْ بِرَسُولِهِ]

(O you who believe! Have Taqwa of Allah, and believe in His Messenger, ). Allah's statement,

[وَالْكِتَـبِ الَّذِى نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ]

(and the Book which He has sent down to His Messenger,) refers to the Qur'an, while,

[وَالْكِتَـبِ الَّذِى أَنَزلَ مِن قَبْلُ]

(and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him);) refers to the previously revealed divine Books. Allah then said,

[وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَـئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَـلاً بَعِيداً]

(and whosoever disbelieves in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.) meaning, he will have deviated from the correct guidance and strayed far away from its path.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The Command to Follow Allah's Straight Path and to Avoid All Other Paths

`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas commented on Allah's statements,

[وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُمْ عَن سَبِيلِهِ]

(And follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path.), and,

[أَنْ أَقِيمُواْ الدِّينَ وَلاَ تَتَفَرَّقُواْ فِيهِ]

((Saying) that you should establish religion and make no divisions in it.) [42:13], and similar Ayat in the Qur'an, "Allah commanded the believers to adhere to the Jama`ah and forbade them from causing divisions and disputes. He informed them that those before them were destroyed because of divisions and disputes in the religion of Allah.'' Similar was said by Mujahid and several others. Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal recorded that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "The Messenger of Allah drew a line with his hand (in the sand) and said,

&#171;هَذَا سَبِيلُ اللهِ مُسْتَقِيمًا&#187;

(This is Allah's path, leading straight.) He then drew lines to the right and left of that line and said,

&#171;هَذِهِ السُّبُلُ لَيْسَ مِنْهَا سَبِيلٌ إِلَّا عَلَيْهِ شَيْطَانٌ يَدْعُو إِلَيْه&#187;

(These are the other paths, on each path there is a devil who calls to it.) He then recited,

[وَأَنَّ هَـذَا صِرَطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُمْ عَن سَبِيلِهِ]

(And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path.)[6:153]'' Al-Hakim also recorded this Hadith and said; "Its chain is Sahih, but they did not record it.'' Imam Ahmad and `Abd bin Humayd recorded (and this is the wording of Ahmad) that Jabir said; "We were sitting with the Prophet when he drew a line in front of him and said,

&#171;هَذَا سَبِيلُ الله&#187;

(This is Allah's path.) He also drew two lines to its right and two lines to its left and said,

&#171;هَذِهِ سُبُلُ الشَّيْطَان&#187;

(These are the paths of Shaytan.) He then placed his hand on the middle path and recited this Ayah;

[وَأَنَّ هَـذَا صِرَطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُمْ عَن سَبِيلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ وَصَّـكُمْ بِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ]

(And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path. This He has ordained for you that you may have Taqwa.) Imam Ahmad, Ibn Majah, in the Book of the Sunnah in his Sunan, and Al-Bazzar collected this Hadith. Ibn Jarir recorded that a man asked Ibn Mas`ud, "What is As-Sirat Al-Mustaqim (the straight path)'' Ibn Mas`ud replied, "Muhammad left us at its lower end and its other end is in Paradise. To the right of this Path are other paths, and to the left of it are other paths, and there are men (on these paths) calling those who pass by them. Whoever goes on the other paths will end up in the Fire. Whoever takes the Straight Path, will end up in Paradise.'' Ibn Mas`ud then recited the Ayah;

[وَأَنَّ هَـذَا صِرَطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُمْ عَن سَبِيلِهِ]

(And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His path.)'" Imam Ahmad recorded that, An-Nawwas bin Sam`an said that the Messenger of Allah said,

&#171;ضَرَبَ اللهُ مَثَلًا صِرَاطًا مُسْتَقِيمًا، وَعَنْ جَنْبَي الصِّرَاطِ سُورَانِ فِيهِمَا أَبْوَابٌ مُفَتَّحَةٌ، وَعَلَى الْأَبْوَابِ سُتُورٌ مُرْخَاةٌ وَعَلَى بَابِ الصِّرَاطِ دَاعٍ يَدْعُو: يَا أَيَّهَا النَّاسُ هَلُمُّوا ادْخُلُوا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا وَدَاعٍ يَدْعُو مِنْ فَوْقِ الصِّرَاطِ فَإِذَا أَرَادَ الِإنْسَانُ أَنْ يَفْتَحَ شَيْئًا مِنْ تِلْكَ الْأَبْوَابِ قَالَ وَيْحَكَ لَا تَفْتَحْهُ فَإِنَّكَ إِنْ فَتَحْتَهُ تَلِجْهُ فَالصِّرَاطُ الإِسْلَامُ وَالسُّورَانِ حُدُودُ اللهِ وَالْأَبْوَابُ الْمُفَتَّحَةُ مَحَارِمُ اللهِ وَذَلِكَ الدَّاعِي عَلَى رَأْسِ الصِّرَاطِ كِتَابُ اللهِ، وَالدَّاعِي مِنْ فَوْقِ الصِّرَاطِ وَاعِظُ اللهِ فِي قَلْبِ كُلِّ مُسْلِم&#187;

(Allah has given a parable of the straight path, and on the two sides of this path, there are two walls containing door ways. On these door ways, there are curtains that are lowered down. on the gate of this path there is a caller heralding, `O people! come and enter the straight path all together and do not divide. ' There is also another caller that heralds from above the path, who says when a person wants to remove the curtain on any of these doors, `Woe to you! Do not open this door, for if you open it, you will enter it. The (straight) path is Islam, the two walls are Allah's set limits, the open doors lead to Allah's prohibitions, the caller on the gate of the path is Allah's Book (the Qur'an), while the caller from above the path is Allah's admonition in the heart of every Muslim.) At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith, and At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Gharib.'' Allah's statement,

[فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ]

(so follow it, and follow not (other) paths...) describes Allah's path in the singular sense, because truth is one. Allah describes the other paths in the plural, because they are many and are divided. Allah said in another Ayah,

[اللَّهُ وَلِيُّ الَّذِينَ ءامَنُواْ يُخْرِجُهُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَـتِ إِلَى النُّورِ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ أَوْلِيَآؤُهُمُ الطَّـغُوتُ يُخْرِجُونَهُم مِّنَ النُّورِ إِلَى الظُّلُمَـتِ أُوْلَـئِكَ أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَـلِدُونَ ]

(Allah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darknesses into light. But as for those who disbelieve, their supporters are Taghut (false deities), they bring them out from light into darknesses. Those are the dwellers of the Fire, and they will abide therein forever.) [2:257]

Praising the Tawrah and the Qur'an

After Allah described the Qur'an by saying,

[وَأَنَّ هَـذَا صِرَطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ]

(And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it...) He then praised the Tawrah and its Messenger,

[ثُمَّ ءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَـبَ]

(Then, We gave Musa the Book...) Allah often mentions the Qur'an and the Tawrah together. Allah said,

[وَمِن قَبْلِهِ كِتَـبُ مُوسَى إِمَاماً وَرَحْمَةً وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّسَاناً عَرَبِيّاً]

(And before this was the Scripture of Musa as a guide and a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in the Arabic language.) [46:12]. Allah said in the beginning of this Surah,

[قُلْ مَنْ أَنزَلَ الْكِتَـبَ الَّذِى جَآءَ بِهِ مُوسَى نُوراً وَهُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ تَجْعَلُونَهُ قَرَطِيسَ تُبْدُونَهَا وَتُخْفُونَ كَثِيراً]

(Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you have made into paper sheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much)") [6:91], and

[وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ أَنزَلْنَـهُ مُبَارَكٌ]

(And this is a blessed Book which we have sent down. ..) [6:92] Allah said about the idolators,

[فَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ عِندِنَا قَالُواْ لَوْلا أُوتِىَ مِثْلَ مَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسَى]

(But when the truth has come to them from Us, they say: "Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa") [28:48]. Allah replied,

[أَوَلَمْ يَكْفُرُواْ بِمَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسَى مِن قَبْلُ قَالُواْ سِحْرَانِ تَظَـهَرَا وَقَالُواْ إِنَّا بِكُلٍّ كَـفِرُونَ]

("Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Musa of old" They say: "Two kinds of magic [the Tawrah and the Qur'an], each helping the other!" And they say: "Verily, in both we are disbelievers.") [28:48] Allah said about the Jinns that they said,

[يقَوْمَنَآ إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا كِتَـباً أُنزِلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَى مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ يَهْدِى إِلَى الْحَقِّ]

("O our people! Verily, we have heard a Book sent down after Musa, confirming what came before it, it guides to the truth.") [46:30] Allah's statement,

[تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلاً]

(...complete for that which is best, and explaining all things in detail...") means; `We made the Book that We revealed to Musa, a complete and comprehensive Book, sufficient for what he needs to complete his Law.' Similarly, Allah said in another Ayah,

[وَكَتَبْنَا لَهُ فِى الاٌّلْوَاحِ مِن كُلِّ شَىْءٍ]

(And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things. ) [7:145] Allah's statement,

[عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ]

(for that which is best,) means: `as a reward for his doing right and obeying Our commands and orders.' Allah said in other Ayat,

[هَلْ جَزَآءُ الإِحْسَـنِ إِلاَّ الإِحْسَـنُ ]

(Is there any reward for good other than what is best)[55:60],

[وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَـتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّى جَـعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا]

(And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), "Verily, I am going to make you an Imam for mankind.") [2:124] and,

[وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُواْ وَكَانُواْ بِـَايَـتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ ]

y(And We made from among them (Children of Israel), leaders, giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our Ayat.) [32:24] Allah said;

[وَتَفْصِيلاً لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً]

(and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy) praising the Book that Allah sent down to Musa, while,

[ثُمَّ ءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَـبَ تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلاً لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لَّعَلَّهُم بِلِقَآءِ رَبِّهِمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ - وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ أَنزَلْنَـهُ مُبَارَكٌ فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَاتَّقُواْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ ]

(. ..that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this is a blessed Book (the Qur'an) which We have sent down, so follow it and have Taqwa so that you may receive mercy.) This calls to following the Qur'an. Allah encourages His servants to follow His Book (the Qur'an) and orders them to understand it, adhere to it and call to it. He also describes it as being blessed, for those who follow and implement it in this life and the Hereafter, because it is the Firm Rope of Allah.

The Koran clarifies these scriptures repeatedly as including the Torah and Gospel, for example:
5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

Do Not Feel Sad Because of the Behavior of the Jews and Hypocrites

These honorable Ayat were revealed about those who rush into disbelief, deviating from the obedience of Allah, His Messenger, prefering their opinions and lusts to what Allah has legislated,

[مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ ءَامَنَّا بِأَفْوَهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ]

(of such who say, "We believe'' with their mouths but their hearts have no faith.) These people pretend to be faithful with their words, but their hearts are empty from faith, and they are the hypocrites.

[مِّنَ الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ]

(And of the Jews...) the enemies of Islam and its people, they and the hypocrites all,

[سَمَّـعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ]

(listen much and eagerly to lies...) and they accept and react to it positively,

[سَمَّـعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ ءَاخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ]

(listening to others who have not come to you,) meaning, they listen to some people who do not attend your meetings, O Muhammad. Or, the Ayah might mean, they listen to what you say and convey it to your enemies who do not attend your audience.

The Jews Alter and Change the Law, Such As Stoning the Adulterer

[يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَضِعِهِ]

(They change the words from their places:) by altering their meanings and knowingly distorting them after they comprehended them,

[يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ]

(they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!") It was reported that this part of the Ayah was revealed about some Jews who committed murder and who said to each other, "Let us ask Muhammad to judge between us, and if he decides that we pay the Diyah, accept his judgement. If he decides on capital punishment, do not accept his judgement.'' The correct opinion is that this Ayah was revealed about the two Jews who committed adultery. The Jews changed the law they had in their Book from Allah on the matter of punishment for adultery, from stoning to death, to a hundred flogs and making the offenders ride a donkey facing the back of the donkey. When this incident of adultery occurred after the Hijrah, they said to each other, "Let us go to Muhammad and seek his judgement. If he gives a ruling of flogging, then implement his decision and make it a proof for you with Allah. This way, one of Allah's Prophets will have upheld this ruling amongst you. But if he decides that the punishment should be stoning to death, then do not accept his decision.'' There are several Hadiths mentioning this story. Malik reported that Nafi` said that `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "The Jews came to Allah's Messenger and mentioned that a man and a woman from them committed adultery. Allah's Messenger said to them,

&#171;مَا تَجِدُونَ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ فِي شَأْنِ الرَّجْمِ؟&#187;

(What do find of the ruling about stoning in the Tawrah) They said, `We only find that they should be exposed and flogged.' `Abdullah bin Salam said, `You lie. The Tawrah mentions stoning, so bring the Tawrah.' They brought the Tawrah and opened it but one of them hid the verse about stoning with his hand and recited what is before and after that verse. `Abdullah bin Salam said to him, `Remove your hand,' and he removed it, thus uncovering the verse about stoning. So they said, He (`Abdullah bin Salam) has said the truth, O Muhammad! It is the verse about stoning.' The Messenger of Allah decided that the adulterers be stoned to death and his command was carried out. I saw that man shading the woman from the stones with his body.'' Al-Bukhari and Muslim also collected this Hadith and this is the wording collected by Al-Bukhari. In another narration by Al-Bukhari, the Prophet said to the Jews,

&#171;مَا تَصْنَعُون بِهِمَا؟&#187;

(What would you do in this case) They said, "We would humiliate and expose them.'' The Prophet recited,

[قُلْ فَأْتُواْ بِالتَّوْرَاةِ فَاتْلُوهَا إِن كُنتُمْ]

(Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought a man who was blind in one eye and who was respected among them and said to him, "Read (from the Tawrah).'' So he read until he reached a certain verse and then covered it with his hand. He was told, "Remove your hand,'' and it was the verse about stoning. So that man said, "O Muhammad! This is the verse about stoning, and we had hid its knowledge among us.'' So the Messenger ordered that the two adulterers be stoned, and they were stoned. Muslim recorded that a Jewish man and a Jewish woman were brought before Allah's Messenger because they committed adultery. The Messenger of Allah went to the Jews and asked them,

&#171;مَا تَجِدُونَ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ عَلى مَنْ زَنَى؟&#187;

(What is the ruling that you find in the Tawrah for adultery) hThey said, "We expose them, carry them (on donkeys) backwards and parade them in public.'' The Prophet recited;

[قُلْ فَأْتُواْ بِالتَّوْرَاةِ فَاتْلُوهَا إِن كُنتُمْ]

(Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought the Tawrah and read from it until the reader reached the verse about stoning. Then he placed his hand on that verse and read what was before and after it. `Abdullah bin Salam, who was with the Messenger of Allah , said, "Order him to remove his hand,'' and he removed his hand and under it was the verse about stoning. So the Messenger of Allah commanded that the adulterers be stoned, and they were stoned. `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "I was among those who stoned them and I saw the man shading the woman from the stones with his body.'' Abu Dawud recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "Some Jews came to the Messenger of Allah and invited him to go to the Quff area. So he went to the house of Al-Midras and they said, `O Abu Al-Qasim! A man from us committed adultery with a woman, so decide on their matter.' They arranged a pillow for the Messenger of Allah and he sat on it and said,

&#171;ائْتُونِي بِالتَّوْرَاة&#187;

(Bring the Tawrah to me.) He was brought the Tawrah and he removed the pillow from under him and placed the Tawrah on it, saying,

&#171;آمَنْتُ بِكِ وَبِمَنْ أَنْزَلَك&#187;

(I trust you and He Who revealed it to you.) He then said,

&#171;ائْتُونِي بِأَعْلَمِكُم&#187;

(Bring me your most knowledgeable person.) So he was brought a young man... '' and then he mentioned the rest of the story that Malik narrated from Nafi`. These Hadiths state that the Messenger of Allah issued a decision that conforms with the ruling in the Tawrah, not to honor the Jews in what they believe in, for the Jews were commanded to follow the Law of Muhammad only. Rather, the Prophet did this because Allah commanded him to do so. He asked them about the ruling of stoning in the Tawrah to make them admit to what the Tawrah contains and what they collaborated to hide, deny and exclude from implementing for all that time. They had to admit to what they did, although they did it while having knowledge of the correct ruling. What made them go to the Prophet for judgement in this matter was their lusts and desires, hoping that the Prophet would agree with their opinion, not that they believed in the correctness of his judgment. This is why they said,

[إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا]

(If you are given this,) referring to flogging, then take it,

[وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ]

(but if you are not given this, then beware!) and do not accept or implement it. Allah said next,

[وَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِى الدُّنْيَا خِزْىٌ وَلَهُمْ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌسَمَّـعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ أَكَّـلُونَ لِلسُّحْتِ]

(And whomsoever Allah wants to put in Fitnah, you can do nothing for him against Allah. Those are the ones whose hearts Allah does not want to purify; for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment. They (like to) listen to falsehood, to devour Suht) `Suht' refers to bribes, as Ibn Mas`ud and others stated. The Ayah states that if one is like this, how can Allah cleanse his heart and accept his supplication Allah said to His Prophet ,

[فَإِن جَآءُوكَ]

(So if they come to you...) so that you judge between them,

[فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَإِن تُعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ فَلَن يَضُرُّوكَ شَيْئاً]

(either judge between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least.) meaning, there is no harm if you do not judge between them. This is because when they came to you to judge between them, they did not seek to follow the truth, but only what conformed to their lusts. We should mention here that Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, As-Suddi, Zayd bin Aslam, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, and several others said that this part of the Ayah was abrogated by Allah's statement,

[وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ]

(And so judge among them by what Allah has revealed.)

[وَإِنْ حَكَمْتَ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِالْقِسْطِ]

(And if you judge, judge with justice between them.) and with fairness, even if the Jews were unjust and outcasts from the path of fairness,

[إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ]

(Verily, Allah loves those who act justly.)

Chastising the Jews for Their Evil Lusts and Desires, While Praising the Tawrah

Allah then chastises the Jews for their false ideas and deviant desires to abandon what they believe is true in their Book, and which they claim is their eternal Law that they are always commanded to adhere to. Yet, they do not adhere to the Tawrah, but they prefer other laws over it, although they believe that these other laws are not correct and do not apply to them. Allah said,

[وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذلِكَ وَمَآ أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ ]

(But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Tawrah, in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that they turn away. For they are not believers.) Allah next praises the Tawrah that He sent down to His servant and Messenger Musa, son of `Imran,

[إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ]

(Verily, We did send down the Tawrah [to Musa], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets who submitted themselves to Allah's will, judged the Jews.) and these Prophets did not deviate from the law of the Tawrah, change or alter it,

[وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالاٌّحْبَارُ]

(And (also) the Rabbaniyyun and the Ahbar...) wherein Rabbaniyyun refers to the worshippers who are learned and religious, and Ahbar refers to the scholars,

[بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَـبِ اللَّهِ]

(for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book,) meaning, they were entrusted with the Book of Allah, and they were commanded to adhere to it and not hide any part of,

[وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَآءَ فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِـَايَـتِى ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me and sell not My verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers.) There are two ways to explain this Ayah and we will mention the later.

Another Reason Behind Revealing these Honorable Ayat

Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah sent down the Ayat,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers,)

[فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الظَّـلِمُونَ]

(Such are the unjust,) and,

[فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَـسِقُونَ]

(Such are the rebellious.) about two groups among the Jews. During the time of Jahiliyyah, one of them had defeated the other. As a result, they made a treaty that they would pay blood money totaling fifty Wasaq [of gold] (each Wasaq approx. 3 kg) for every dead person from the defeated group killed by the victors, and a hundred Wasaq for every dead person the defeated group killed from the victors. This treaty remained in effect until the Prophet came to Al-Madinah and both of these groups became subservient under the Prophet . Yet, when the mighty group once suffered a casualty at the hands of the weaker group, the mighty group sent a delegation demanding the hundred Wasaq. The weaker group said, `How can two groups who have the same religion, one ancestral lineage and a common land, have a Diyah that for some of them is half of that of the others We only agreed to this because you oppressed us and because we feared you. Now that Muhammad has come, we will not give you what you asked.' So war was almost rekindled between them, but they agreed to seek Muhammad's judgement in their dispute. The mighty group among them said [among themselves], `By Allah! Muhammad will never give you double the Diyah that you pay to them compared to what they pay to you. They have said the truth anyway, for they only gave us this amount because we oppressed and overpowered them. Therefore, send someone to Muhammad who will sense what his judgement will be. If he agrees to give you what you demand, accept his judgment, and if he does not give you what you seek, do not refer to him for judgement.' So they sent some hypocrites to the Messenger of Allah to try and find out the Messenger's judgement. When they came to the Messenger , Allah informed him of their matter and of their plot. Allah sent down,

[يأَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِى الْكُفْرِ]

(O Messenger! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you,) until,

[الْفَـسِقُونَ]

(Such are the rebellious.) By Allah! It is because of their problem that Allah sent down these verses and it is they whom Allah meant.'' Abu Dawud collected a similar narration for this Hadith. Abu Ja`far Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah in Surat Al-Ma'idah,

[فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ]

(either judge between them, or turn away from them...) until,

[الْمُقْسِطِينَ]

(Those who act justly.) was revealed concerning the problem of blood money between Bani An-Nadir and Bani Qurayzah. The dead of Bani An-Nadir were being honored more and they received the full amount of Diyah, while Qurayzah received half the Diyah for their dead. So they referred to the Messenger of Allah for judgement and Allah sent down these verses about them. The Messenger of Allah compelled them to adhere to the true judgement in this matter and made the Diyah the same for both groups and Allah knows best about that matter.'' Ahmad, Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith from Abu Ishaq. Al-`Awfi and `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that these Ayat were revealed about the two Jews who committed adultery, and we mentioned the Hadiths about this story before. It appears that both of these were the reasons behind revealing these Ayat, and Allah knows best. This is why Allah said afterwards,

[وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَآ أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ]

(And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye) until the end of the Ayah, which strengthens the opinion that the story of the Diyah was behind revealing the Ayat as we explained above. Allah knows best. Allah said,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers.) Al-Bara' bin `Azib, Hudhayfah bin Al-Yaman, Ibn `Abbas, Abu Mijlaz, Abu Raja' Al-`Utaridi, `Ikrimah, `Ubaydullah bin `Abdullah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and others said that this Ayah was revealed about the People of the Book. Al-Hasan Al-Basri added that this Ayah also applies to us. `Abdur-Razzaq said that Ath-Thawri said that Mansur said that Ibrahim said that these Ayat, "Were revealed about the Children of Israel, and Allah accepted them for this Ummah.'' Ibn Jarir recorded this statement. `Ali bin Abi Talhah also stated that Ibn `Abbas commented on Allah's statement,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers,) "Whoever rejects what Allah has revealed, will have committed Kufr, and whoever accepts what Allah has revealed, but did not rule by it, is a Zalim (unjust) and a Fasiq (rebellious) and a sinner.'' Ibn Jarir recorded this statement. `Abdur-Razzaq said, "Ma`mar narrated to us that Tawus said that Ibn `Abbas was asked about Allah's statement,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم]

(And whosoever does not judge...) He said, `It is an act of Kufr.' Ibn Tawus added, `It is not like those who disbelieve in Allah, His angels, His Books and His Messengers.' Ath-Thawri narrated that Ibn Jurayj said that `Ata' said, `There is Kufr and Kufr less than Kufr, Zulm and Zulm less than Zulm, Fisq and Fisq less than Fisq.''' Waki` said that Sa`id Al-Makki said that Tawus said that,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers,) "This is not the Kufr that annuls one's religion.''

[وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَآ أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ وَالاٌّنْفَ بِالاٌّنْفِ وَالاٍّذُنَ بِالاٍّذُنِ وَالسِّنَّ بِالسِّنِّ وَالْجُرُوحَ قِصَاصٌ فَمَن تَصَدَّقَ بِهِ فَهُوَ كَفَّارَةٌ لَّهُ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الظَّـلِمُونَ ]

(45. And We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal. " But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the unjust.) This Ayah also chastises and criticizes the Jews because in the Tawrah, they have the law of a life for a life. Yet, they defied this ruling by transgression and rebellion. They used to apply this ruling when a person from Bani An-Nadir was killed by a Qurayzah person, but this was not the case when the opposite occurred. Rather, they would revert to Diyah in this case. They also defied the ruling in the Tawrah to stone the adulterer and instead came up with their own form of punishment, flogging, humiliation and parading them in public. This is why Allah said in the previous Ayah, t

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers.) because they rejected Allah's command with full intention and with transgression and rebellion. In this Ayah, Allah said,

[فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الظَّـلِمُونَ]

(such are the unjust.) because they did not exact the oppressed his due rights from the oppressor in a matter which Allah ordered that all be treated equally and fairly. Instead, they defied that command, committed injustice and transgressed against each other.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Allah Mentions `Isa and Praises the Injil

Allah said,

[وَقَفَّيْنَا]

(and We sent...) meaning, We sent

[عَلَى ءَاثَـرِهِمْ]

(in their footsteps) meaning the Prophets of the Children of Israel,

[بِعَيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَوْرَاةِ]

(`Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrah that had come before him,) meaning, he believed in it and ruled by it.

[وَءَاتَيْنَـهُ الإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ]

(and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light) a guidance that directs to the truth and a light that removes the doubts and solves disputes,

[وَمُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ]

(and confirmation of the Tawrah that had come before it,) meaning, he adhered to the Tawrah, except for the few instances that clarified the truth where the Children of Israel differed. Allah states in another Ayah that `Isa said to the Children of Israel,

[وَلاٌّحِلَّ لَكُم بَعْضَ الَّذِي حُرِّمَ عَلَيْكُمْ]

(. ..and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you.) So the scholars say that the Injil abrogated some of the rulings of the Tawrah. Allah's statement,

[وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ]

(a guidance and an admonition for those who have Taqwa.) means, We made the Injil guidance and an admonition that prohibits committing sins and errors, for those who have Taqwa of Allah and fear His warning and torment. Allah said next,

[وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ]

(Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent. Allah said in other Ayat,

[قُلْ يَـأَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَى شَىْءٍ حَتَّى تُقِيمُواْ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ]

(Say "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing (guidance) until you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord.'') and,

[الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِىَّ الأُمِّىَّ الَّذِى يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ]

(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written with them in the Tawrah...) until,

[الْمُفْلِحُونَ]

(...successful.) Here, Allah said,

[وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَـسِقُونَ]

(And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the rebellious.) meaning, the rebellious and disobedient of Allah who prefer falsehood and abandon truth. We mentioned before that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians, and this is evident from the context of the Ayah.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Praising the Qur'an; the Command to Refer to the Qur'an for Judgment

Allah mentioned the Tawrah that He sent down to His Prophet Musa, the one whom He spoke directly to, praising it, commanding that it should be implemented, before it was abrogated. Allah then mentioned the Injil, praised it and commanded its people to adhere to it and follow it, as we stated. He next mentioned the Glorious Qur'an that He sent down to His honorable servant and Messenger. Allah said,

[وَأَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَـبَ بِالْحَقِّ]

(And We have sent down to you the Book in truth...) meaning, with the truth that, no doubt, is coming from Allah,

[مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَـبِ]

(confirming the Scripture that came before it) meaning, the Divinely Revealed Books that praised the Qur'an and mentioned that it would be sent down from Allah to His servant and Messenger Muhammad . The Qur'an was revealed as was foretold in the previous Scriptures. This fact increased faith in the previous Scriptures for the sincere who have knowledge of these Scriptures, those who adhered to Allah's commands and Laws and believed in His Messengers. Allah said,

[قُلْ ءَامِنُواْ بِهِ أَوْ لاَ تُؤْمِنُواْ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْعِلْمَ مِن قَبْلِهِ إِذَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ يَخِرُّونَ لِلاٌّذْقَانِ سُجَّدًا - وَيَقُولُونَ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّنَآ إِن كَانَ وَعْدُ رَبِّنَا لَمَفْعُولاً ]

(Say: "Believe in it or do not believe (in it). Verily, those who were given knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration.'' And they say: "Glory be to our Lord! Truly, the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled.'') meaning that they say, the promise of our Lord, concerning the coming of Muhammad by the words of His previous Messengers, will certainly be fulfilled. Allah's statement,

[وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَيْهِ]

(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an and swore by His Most Honorable Self,

[إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَـفِظُونَ ]

(Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).) Allah said,

[فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ]

(So judge between them by what Allah has revealed.) The Ayah commands: O Muhammad! Rule between the people, Arabs and non-Arabs, lettered and unlettered, by what Allah has revealed to you in this Glorious Book and what it approves of for you from the Law of the previous Prophets, as Ibn Jarir said. Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet had the choice to judge between them or to turn away from them and refer them to their own Law. Then this Ayah was revealed,

[وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ]

(So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires. ..) and he was commanded to judge between them by our Book.''. Allah's statement

[وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ]

(and follow not their vain desires...) This means the ideas they promote, because of which they turned away from what Allah revealed to His Messengers. This is why Allah said,

[وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ]

(And follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you.) The Ayah commands: Do not diverge from the truth that Allah has ordained for you, to the vain desires of these miserable, ignorant people. Allah's statement,

[لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَـجاً]

(To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way.)

[لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً]

(To each among you, We have prescribed a law) Shir`at meaning, a clear path, as Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Ibn `Abbas.

[وَلَوْ شَآءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَحِدَةً]

(If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation.) This is a general proclamation to all nations informing them of Allah's mighty ability. If Allah wills, He would make all mankind follow one religion and one Law, that would never be abrogated. Allah decided that every Prophet would have his own distinct law that is later abrogated partially or totally with the law of a latter Prophet. Later on, all previous laws were abrogated by the Law that Allah sent with Muhammad , His servant and Messenger, whom Allah sent to the people of earth as the Final Prophet. Allah said,

[وَلَوْ شَآءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَحِدَةً وَلَـكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِى مَآ ءَاتَـكُم]

(If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you.) This Ayah means, Allah has instituted different laws to test His servants' obedience to what He legislates for them, thus, He rewards or punishes them according to their actions and what they intend. `Abdullah bin Kathir said that the Ayah,

[فِى مَآ ءَاتَـكُم]

(In what He has given you.) means, of the Book. Next, Allah encouraged rushing to perform good deeds,

[فَاسْتَبِقُواْ الْخَيْرَتِ]

(so strive as in a race in good deeds.) which are obedience to Allah, following His Law that abrogated the laws that came before it, and believing in His Book, the Qur'an, which is the Final Book that He revealed. Allah said next,

[إِلَى الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ]

(The return of you (all) is to Allah;) Therefore, O people, your return and final destination is to Allah on the Day of Resurrection,

[فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ]

(then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.) Allah will inform you about the truth in which you used to differ and will reward the sincere, as compensation for their sincerity, and will punish the disbelieving, rebellious people who rejected the truth and deviated from it to other paths, without proof or evidence to justify their actions. Rather, they have rejected the clear evidences, unequivocal proofs and established signs. Ad-Dahhak said that,

[فَاسْتَبِقُواْ الْخَيْرَتِ]

(So strive as in a race in good deeds.)is directed at the Ummah of Muhammad , but the first view is more apparent. Allah's statement,

[وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ]

(And so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires,) emphasizes this command and forbids ignoring it. Allah said next,

[وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ]

(but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you. ) meaning; beware of the Jews, your enemies, lest they distort the truth for you in what they convey to you. Therefore, do not be deceived by them, for they are liars, treacherous and disbelievers.

[فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ]

(And if they turn away,) from the judgement that you pass in their disputes, and they defy Allah's Law,

[فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُصِيبَهُم بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ]

(then know that Allah's will is to punish them for some sins of theirs.) meaning, know that this will occur according to the decree of Allah, and because out of His wisdom they have deviated from the truth, and because of their previous sins.

[وَإِنَّ كَثِيراً مِّنَ النَّاسِ لَفَـسِقُونَ]

(And truly, most men are rebellious.) Therefore, the majority of humans are disobedient to their Lord, defiant of the truth and deviate away from it. Allah said in other Ayat,

[وَمَآ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتَ بِمُؤْمِنِينَ ]

(And most people will not believe even if you desire it eagerly,) and,

[وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ]

(And if you obey most of those on the earth they will mislead you far away from Allah's path.) Muhammad bin Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Ka`b bin Asad, Ibn Saluba, `Abdullah bin Surya and Shas bin Qays said to each other, `Let us go to Muhammad to try and misguide him from his religion.' So they went to the Prophet and said, `O Muhammad! You know that we are the scholars, noblemen and chiefs of the Jews. If we follow you, the Jews will follow suit and will not contradict us. But, there is enmity between us and some of our people, so we will refer to you for judgement in this matter, and you should rule in our favor against them and we will believe in you.' The Messenger of Allah refused the offer and Allah sent down these Ayat about them,

[وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ]

(And so judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you.) until,

[لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ]

(for a people who have firm faith.)'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this Hadith. Allah continues,

[أَفَحُكْمَ الْجَـهِلِيَّةِ يَبْغُونَ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ حُكْماً لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ ]

(Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) ignorance And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith) Allah criticizes those who ignore Allah's commandments, which include every type of righteous good thing and prohibit every type of evil, but they refer instead to opinions, desires and customs that people themselves invented, all of which have no basis in Allah's religion. During the time of Jahiliyyah, the people used to abide by the misguidance and ignorance that they invented by sheer opinion and lusts. The Tatar (Mongols) abided by the law that they inherited from their king Genghis Khan who wrote Al-Yasiq, for them. This book contains some rulings that were derived from various religions, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Many of these rulings were derived from his own opinion and desires. Later on, these rulings became the followed law among his children, preferring them to the Law of the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger . Therefore, whoever does this, he is a disbeliever who deserves to be fought against, until he reverts to Allah's and His Messenger's decisions, so that no law, minor or major, is referred to except by His Law. Allah said,

[أَفَحُكْمَ الْجَـهِلِيَّةِ يَبْغُونَ]

(Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) ignorance) meaning, they desire and want this and ignore Allah's judgement,

[وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّهِ حُكْماً لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ]

(And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm faith) Who is more just in decision than Allah for those who comprehend Allah's Law, believe in Him, who are certain that Allah is the best among those who give decisions and that He is more merciful with His creation than the mother with her own child Allah has perfect knowledge of everything, is able to do all things, and He is just in all matters. Al-Hafiz Abu Al-Qasim At-Tabarani recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,

&#171;أَبْغَضُ النَّاسِ إِلَى اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ، مَنْ يَبْتَغِي فِي الْإِسْلَامِ سُنَّةَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ، وَطَالِبُ دَمِ امْرِىءٍ بِغَيْرِ حَقَ لِيُرِيقَ دَمَه&#187;

(The most hated person to Allah is the Muslim who seeks the ways of the days of ignorance and he who seeks to shed the blood of a person without justification.) Al-Bukhari recorded Abu Al-Yaman narrating a similar Hadith, with some addition.

The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.
6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

Praising the Tawrah and the Qur'an

After Allah described the Qur'an by saying,

[وَأَنَّ هَـذَا صِرَطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ]

(And verily, this is My straight path, so follow it...) He then praised the Tawrah and its Messenger,

[ثُمَّ ءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَـبَ]

(Then, We gave Musa the Book...) Allah often mentions the Qur'an and the Tawrah together. Allah said,

[وَمِن قَبْلِهِ كِتَـبُ مُوسَى إِمَاماً وَرَحْمَةً وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّسَاناً عَرَبِيّاً]

(And before this was the Scripture of Musa as a guide and a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in the Arabic language.) [46:12]. Allah said in the beginning of this Surah,

[قُلْ مَنْ أَنزَلَ الْكِتَـبَ الَّذِى جَآءَ بِهِ مُوسَى نُوراً وَهُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ تَجْعَلُونَهُ قَرَطِيسَ تُبْدُونَهَا وَتُخْفُونَ كَثِيراً]

(Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you have made into paper sheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much)") [6:91], and

[وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ أَنزَلْنَـهُ مُبَارَكٌ]

(And this is a blessed Book which we have sent down. ..) [6:92] Allah said about the idolators,

[فَلَمَّا جَآءَهُمُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ عِندِنَا قَالُواْ لَوْلا أُوتِىَ مِثْلَ مَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسَى]

(But when the truth has come to them from Us, they say: "Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa") [28:48]. Allah replied,

[أَوَلَمْ يَكْفُرُواْ بِمَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسَى مِن قَبْلُ قَالُواْ سِحْرَانِ تَظَـهَرَا وَقَالُواْ إِنَّا بِكُلٍّ كَـفِرُونَ]

("Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Musa of old" They say: "Two kinds of magic [the Tawrah and the Qur'an], each helping the other!" And they say: "Verily, in both we are disbelievers.") [28:48] Allah said about the Jinns that they said,

[يقَوْمَنَآ إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا كِتَـباً أُنزِلَ مِن بَعْدِ مُوسَى مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ يَهْدِى إِلَى الْحَقِّ]

("O our people! Verily, we have heard a Book sent down after Musa, confirming what came before it, it guides to the truth.") [46:30] Allah's statement,

[تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلاً]

(...complete for that which is best, and explaining all things in detail...") means; `We made the Book that We revealed to Musa, a complete and comprehensive Book, sufficient for what he needs to complete his Law.' Similarly, Allah said in another Ayah,

[وَكَتَبْنَا لَهُ فِى الاٌّلْوَاحِ مِن كُلِّ شَىْءٍ]

(And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things. ) [7:145] Allah's statement,

[عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ]

(for that which is best,) means: `as a reward for his doing right and obeying Our commands and orders.' Allah said in other Ayat,

[هَلْ جَزَآءُ الإِحْسَـنِ إِلاَّ الإِحْسَـنُ ]

(Is there any reward for good other than what is best)[55:60],

[وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَـتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّى جَـعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا]

(And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), "Verily, I am going to make you an Imam for mankind.") [2:124] and,

[وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُواْ وَكَانُواْ بِـَايَـتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ ]

y(And We made from among them (Children of Israel), leaders, giving guidance under Our command, when they were patient and believed with certainty in Our Ayat.) [32:24] Allah said;

[وَتَفْصِيلاً لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً]

(and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy) praising the Book that Allah sent down to Musa, while,

[ثُمَّ ءاتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَـبَ تَمَامًا عَلَى الَّذِى أَحْسَنَ وَتَفْصِيلاً لِّكُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لَّعَلَّهُم بِلِقَآءِ رَبِّهِمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ - وَهَـذَا كِتَـبٌ أَنزَلْنَـهُ مُبَارَكٌ فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَاتَّقُواْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ ]

(. ..that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this is a blessed Book (the Qur'an) which We have sent down, so follow it and have Taqwa so that you may receive mercy.) This calls to following the Qur'an. Allah encourages His servants to follow His Book (the Qur'an) and orders them to understand it, adhere to it and call to it. He also describes it as being blessed, for those who follow and implement it in this life and the Hereafter, because it is the Firm Rope of Allah.

The Qur'an is Allah's Proof Against His Creation

Ibn Jarir commented on the Ayah, "The Ayah means, this is a Book that We sent down, so that you do not say,

[إِنَّمَآ أُنزِلَ الْكِتَـبُ عَلَى طَآئِفَتَيْنِ مِن قَبْلِنَا]

("The Book was sent down only to two sects before us.") This way, you will have no excuse. Allah said in another Ayah,

[وَلَوْلا أَن تُصِيبَهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ فَيَقُولُواْ رَبَّنَا لَوْلا أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولاً فَنَتِّبِعَ ءايَـتِكَ]

(Otherwise, they would have suffered a calamity because of what their hands sent forth, and said: "Our Lord! Why did You not send us a Messenger We would then have followed Your Ayat.'')[28:47].'' The Ayah,

[عَلَى طَآئِفَتَيْنِ مِن قَبْلِنَا]

(to two sects before us) refers to the Jews and Christians, according to `Ali bin Abi Talhah who narrated it from Ibn `Abbas. Similar was reported from Mujahid, As-Suddi, Qatadah and several others. Allah's statement,

[وَإِن كُنَّا عَن دِرَاسَتِهِمْ لَغَـفِلِينَ]

("...and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied.") meaning: `we did not understand what they said because the revelation was not in our tongue. We, indeed, were busy and unaware of their message,' so they said. Allah said next,

[أَوْ تَقُولُواْ لَوْ أَنَّآ أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا الْكِتَـبُ لَكُنَّآ أَهْدَى مِنْهُمْ]

(Or lest you should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely, have been better guided than they.") meaning: We also refuted this excuse, had you used it, lest you say, "If a Book was revealed to us, just as they received a Book, we would have been better guided than they are.'' Allah also said.

[وَأَقْسَمُواْ بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَـنِهِمْ لَئِن جَآءَهُمْ نَذِيرٌ لَّيَكُونُنَّ أَهْدَى مِنْ إِحْدَى الاٍّمَمِ]

(And they swore by Allah their most binding oath that if a warner came to them, they would be more guided than any of the nations (before them).) [35:42] Allah replied here,

[فَقَدْ جَآءَكُمْ بَيِّنَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ]

(So now has come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy.) Allah says, there has come to you from Allah a Glorious Qur'an revealed to Muhammad , the Arab Prophet. In it is the explanation of the lawful and unlawful matters, guidance for the hearts and mercy from Allah to His servants who follow and implement it. Allah said;

[فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن كَذَّبَ بِآيَـتِ اللَّهِ وَصَدَفَ عَنْهَا]

(Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat of Allah and Sadafa away therefrom) This refers to the one who neither benefited from what the Messenger brought, nor followed what he was sent with by abandoning all other ways. Rather, he Sadafa from following the Ayat of Allah, meaning, he discouraged and hindered people from following it. This is the explanation of As-Suddi for Sadafa, while Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid and Qatadah said that Sadafa means, he turned away from it.

10:94 - If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Previous books Attest to the Truth of the Qur'an

Allah said:

[الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِىَّ الأُمِّىَّ الَّذِى يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنجِيلِ]

(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write whom they find written of with them in the Tawrah and the Injil.)(7:157) They are as certain of this as they are about who their children are, yet they hide it and distort it. They did not believe in it despite its clear evidence. Therefore Allah said:

[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِمْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ - وَلَوْ جَآءَتْهُمْ كُلُّ ءايَةٍ حَتَّى يَرَوُاْ الْعَذَابَ الاٌّلِيمَ ]

(Truly, those, against whom the Word (wrath) of your Lord has been justified, will not believe. Even if every sign should come to them, until they see the painful torment.) meaning they would not believe in a way that they might benefit from that belief. This is when they believe at a time one may not be able to benefit from his belief. An example is when Musa prayed against Fir`awn and his chiefs, saying:

[رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَى أَمْوَلِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلاَ يُؤْمِنُواْ حَتَّى يَرَوُاْ الْعَذَابَ الاٌّلِيمَ]

(Our Lord! Destroy their wealth, and harden their hearts, so that they will not believe until they see the painful torment.)(10:88) And Allah said:

[وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَآ إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَـئِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَى وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ قُبُلاً مَّا كَانُواْ لِيُؤْمِنُواْ إِلاَّ أَن يَشَآءَ اللَّهُ وَلَـكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ ]

(And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allah willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.) (6:111) Allah then said:

[فَلَوْلاَ كَانَتْ قَرْيَةٌ ءَامَنَتْ فَنَفَعَهَآ إِيمَانُهَا إِلاَّ قَوْمَ يُونُسَ لَمَّآ ءَامَنُواْ كَشَفْنَا عَنْهُمْ عَذَابَ الخِزْىِ فِى الْحَيَوةَ الدُّنْيَا وَمَتَّعْنَاهُمْ إِلَى حِينٍ ]

(98. Was there any town (community) that believed (after seeing the punishment), and its faith (at that moment) saved it (from the punishment)-- except the people of Yunus; when they believed, We removed from them the torment of disgrace in the life of the (present) world, and permitted them to enjoy for a while).

Actually, Muslims are not just directed to read, study and believe these Books, but they were encouraged to also copy them that all nations may believe.
6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Ibrahim Receives the News of Ishaq and Ya`qub During His Old Age

Allah states that after Ibrahim became old and he, and his wife, Sarah, lost hope of having children, He gave them Ishaq. The angels came to Ibrahim on their way to the people of Prophet Lut (to destroy them) and they delivered the good news of a child to Ibrahim and his wife. Ibrahim's wife was amazed at the news,

[قَالَتْ يوَيْلَتَا ءَأَلِدُ وَأَنَاْ عَجُوزٌ وَهَـذَا بَعْلِى شَيْخًا إِنَّ هَـذَا لَشَىْءٌ عَجِيبٌ - قَالُواْ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللَّهِ رَحْمَتُ اللَّهِ وَبَرَكَـتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ ]

(She said (in astonishment): "Woe unto me! Shall I bear a child while I am an old woman, and here is my husband, an old man Verily! This is a strange thing!'' They said: "Do you wonder at the decree of Allah The mercy of Allah and His blessings be on you, O the family [of Ibrahim]. Surely, He (Allah) is All-Praiseworthy, All-Glorious.'') [11:72-73] The angels also gave them the good news that Ishaq will be a Prophet and that he will have offspring of his own. In another Ayah, Allah said;

[وَبَشَّرْنَـهُ بِإِسْحَـقَ نَبِيّاً مِّنَ الصَّـلِحِينَ ]

(And We gave him the good news of Ishaq a Prophet from the righteous.)[37:112], which perfects this good news and completes the favor. Allah said,

[بِإِسْحَـقَ وَمِن وَرَآءِ إِسْحَـقَ يَعْقُوبَ]

(of Ishaq, and after him, of Ya`qub...) [11:71], meaning, this child will have another child in your lifetime, so that your eyes are comforted by him, just as your eyes will be comforted by his father. Certainly, one becomes jubilant and joyous when he becomes a grandfather, because this means that his offspring will continue to exist. It was also expected that if an elderly couple had children, due to the child's weakness, he would have no offspring. This is why Allah delivered the good news of Ishaq and of his son Ya`qub, whose name literally means `multiplying and having offspring'. This was a reward for Ibrahim who left his people and migrated from their land so that he could worship Allah alone. Allah compensated Ibrahim with better than his people and tribe when He gave him righteous children of his own, who would follow his religion, so that his eyes would be comforted by them. In another Ayah, Allah said; a

[فَلَمَّا اعْتَزَلَهُمْ وَمَا يَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ وَهَبْنَا لَهُ إِسْحَـقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَكُلاًّ جَعَلْنَا نَبِيّاً ]

(So when he turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We gave him Ishaq and Ya`qub, and each one of them We made a Prophet.) [19:49] Allah said here,

[وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُ إِسْحَـقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ كُلاًّ هَدَيْنَا]

(And We bestowed upon him Ishaq and Ya`qub, each of them We guided,) Allah said;

[وَنُوحاً هَدَيْنَا مِن قَبْلُ]

(and before him, We guided Nuh...) meaning, We guided Nuh before and gave him righteous offspring, just as We guided Ibrahim and gave him righteous children.

Qualities of Nuh and Ibrahim

Each of these two Prophets had special qualities. When Allah caused the people of the earth to drown, except those who believed in Nuh and accompanied him in the ark, Allah made the offspring of Nuh the dwellers of the earth thereafter. Ever since that occurred, the people of the earth were and still are the descendants of Nuh. As for Ibrahim, Allah did not send a Prophet after him but from his descendants. Allah said in other Ayat,

[وَجَعَلْنَا فِى ذُرِّيَّتِهِمَا النُّبُوَّةَ وَالْكِتَـبَ]

(And We ordained among his (Ibrahim's) offspring prophethood and the Book.) [29:27],

[وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحاً وَإِبْرَهِيمَ وَجَعَلْنَا فِى ذُرِّيَّتِهِمَا النُّبُوَّةَ وَالْكِتَـبَ]

(And indeed, We sent Nuh and Ibrahim, and placed in their offspring Prophethood and the Book.) [57:26], and,

[أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّيْنَ مِن ذُرِّيَّةِ ءادَمَ وَمِمَّنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّةِ إِبْرَهِيمَ وَإِسْرَءِيلَ وَمِمَّنْ هَدَيْنَا وَاجْتَبَيْنَآ إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ ءايَـتُ الرَّحْمَـنِ خَرُّواْ سُجَّداً وَبُكِيّاً ]

(Those were they unto whom Allah bestowed His grace from among the Prophets, of the offspring of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh, and of the offspring of Ibrahim and Isra'il and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the verses of the Most Beneficent (Allah) were recited unto them, they fell down prostrating and weeping.) [19:58] Allah said in this honorable Ayah here,

[وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِ]

(and among his progeny...) meaning, We guided from among his offspring,

[دَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَـنَ]

(Dawud, Sulayman...) from the offspring of Nuh, according to Ibn Jarir. It is also possible that the Ayah refers to Ibrahim since it is about him that the blessings were originally mentioned here, although Lut is not from his offspring, for he was Ibrahim's nephew, the son of his brother Maran, the son of Azar. It is possible to say that Lut was mentioned in Ibrahim's offspring as a generalization. As Allah said,

[أَمْ كُنتُمْ شُهَدَآءَ إِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوبَ الْمَوْتُ إِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيهِ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن بَعْدِى قَالُواْ نَعْبُدُ إِلَـهَكَ وَإِلَـهَ آبَآئِكَ إِبْرَهِيمَ وَإِسْمَـعِيلَ وَإِسْحَـقَ إِلَـهًا وَاحِدًا وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ ]

(Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya`qub When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me'' They said, "We shall worship your God, and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim, Isma`il, Ishaq, One God, and to Him we submit.'') [2:133]. Here, Isma`il was mentioned among the ascendants of Ya`qub, although he was Ya`qub's uncle. Similarly Allah said,

[فَسَجَدَ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ - إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى أَن يَكُونَ مَعَ السَّـجِدِينَ ]

(So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis -- he refused to be among those to prostrate.) [15:30-31]. Allah included Iblis in His order to the angels to prostrate, and chastised him for his opposition, all because he was similar to them in that (order), so he was considered among them in general, although he was a Jinn. Iblis was created from fire while the angels were created from light. Mentioning `Isa in the offspring of Ibrahim, or Nuh as we stated above, is proof that the grandchildren from a man's daughter's side are included among his offspring. `Isa is included among Ibrahim's progeny through his mother, although `Isa did not have a father. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Harb bin Abi Al-Aswad said, "Al-Hajjaj sent to Yahya bin Ya`mar, saying, `I was told that you claim that Al-Hasan and Al-Husayn are from the offspring of the Prophet , did you find it in the Book of Allah I read the Qur'an from beginning to end and did not find it.' Yahya said, `Do you not read in Surat Al-An`am,

[وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِ دَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَـنَ]

(and among his progeny Dawud, Sulayman...) until,

[وَيَحْيَى وَعِيسَى]

(and Yahya and `Isa...) Al-Hajjaj said, `Yes.' Yahya said, `Is not `Isa from the offspring of Ibrahim, although he did not have a father' Al-Hajjaj said, `You have said the truth.''' For example, when a man leaves behind a legacy, a trust, or gift to his "offspring'' then the children of his daughters are included. But if a man gives something to his "sons'', or he leaves a trust behind for them, then that would be particular to his male children and their male children. Allah's statement,

[وَمِنْ ءابَائِهِمْ وَذُرِّيَّـتِهِمْ وَإِخْوَنِهِمْ]

(And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren,) [6:87], mentions that some of these Prophets' ascendants and descendants were also guided and chosen. So Allah said,

[وَاجْتَبَيْنَـهُمْ وَهَدَيْنَـهُمْ إِلَى صِرَطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ]

(We chose them, and We guided them to a straight path.)

Shirk Eradicates the Deeds, Even the Deeds of the Messengers

Allah said next,

[ذلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِى بِهِ مَن يَشَآءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ]

(This is the guidance of Allah with which He guides whomsoever He wills of His servants.) meaning, this occurred to them by Allah's leave and because He directed them to guidance. Allah said;

[وَلَوْ أَشْرَكُواْ لَحَبِطَ عَنْهُمْ مَّا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ]

(But if they had joined in worship others with Allah, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.) This magnifies the serious danger of Shirk and the gravity of committing it. In another Ayah, Allah said;

[وَلَقَدْ أُوْحِىَ إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكَ لَئِنْ أَشْرَكْتَ لَيَحْبَطَنَّ عَمَلُكَ]

(And indeed it has been revealed to you, as it was to those (Allah's Messengers) before you: "If you join others in worship with Allah, surely your deeds will be in vain.'') [39:65] `If' here does not mean that this would ever occur, as is similar in Allah's statement;

[قُلْ إِن كَانَ لِلرَّحْمَـنِ وَلَدٌ فَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْعَـبِدِينَ ]

(Say: "If the Most Beneficent had a son, then I am the first of Allah's worshippers.'') [43:81], and

[لَوْ أَرَدْنَآ أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْواً لاَّتَّخَذْنَـهُ مِن لَّدُنَّآ إِن كُنَّا فَـعِلِينَ ]

(If We intended to take a pastime (a wife or a son, etc.) We could surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to do (that)) [21:17], and,

[لَّوْ أَرَادَ اللَّهُ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَداً لاَّصْطَفَى مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ سُبْحَـنَهُ هُوَ اللَّهُ الْوَحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ ]

(If Allah willed to take a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He created. But glory be to Him! He is Allah, the One, the Compelling.) [39:4] Allah said,

[أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ ءَاتَيْنَـهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحُكْمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ]

(They are those whom We gave the Book, Al-Hukm, and prophethood.) We bestowed these bounties on them, as a mercy for the servants, and out of our kindness for creation.

[فَإِن يَكْفُرْ بِهَا]

(But if they disbelieve therein...) in the prophethood, or the three things; the Book, the Hukm and the prophethood,

[هَـؤُلاءِ]

(They...) refers to the people of Makkah, according to Ibn `Abbas, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Ad-Dahhak, Qatadah, As-Suddi, and others.

[فَقَدْ وَكَّلْنَا بِهَا قَوْماً لَّيْسُواْ بِهَا بِكَـفِرِينَ]

(then, indeed We have entrusted it to a people who are not disbelievers therein.) This Ayah means, if the Quraysh and the rest of the people of the earth - Arabs and non-Arabs, illiterate and the People of the Scripture - disbelieve in these bounties, then We have entrusted them to another people, the Muhajirun and Ansar, and those who follow their lead until the Day of Resurrection,

[لَّيْسُواْ بِهَا بِكَـفِرِينَ]

(who are not disbelievers therein.) They will not deny any of these favors, not even one letter. Rather, they will believe in them totally, even the parts that are not so clear to some of them. We ask Allah to make us among them by His favor, generosity and kindness. Addressing His servant and Messenger, Muhammad , Allah said;

[أُوْلَـئِكَ]

(They are...) the Prophets mentioned here, along with their righteous fathers, offspring and bretheren,

[الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ]

(those whom Allah had guided.) meaning, they alone are the people of guidance,

[فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ]

(So follow their guidance.) Imitate them. This command to the Messenger certainly applies to his Ummah, according to what he legislates and commands them. While mentioning this Ayah, Al-Bukhari recorded that Mujahid asked Ibn `Abbas, "Is there an instance where prostration is warranted in [Surah] Sad'' Ibn `Abbas said, "Yes.'' He then recited,

[وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُ إِسْحَـقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ]

(...And We bestowed upon him Ishaq and Ya`qub...) until,

[فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ]

(...So follow their guidance.) He commented, "He (our Prophet, Muhammad ) was among them.'' In another narration, Mujahid added that Ibn `Abbas said, "Your Prophet was among those whose guidance we were commanded to follow.'' Allah's statement,

[قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً]

(Say: "No reward I ask of you for this.'') means, I do not ask you for any reward for delivering the Qur'an to you, nor anything else,

[إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَـلَمِينَ]

("It is only a reminder for the `Alamin (mankind and Jinns).'') so they are reminded by it and guided from blindness to clarity, from misguidance to guidance, and from disbelief to faith.

You're welcome to disagree and hold a different interpretation of those verses, but this is an extract of Tafsir ibn Kathir, one of the most accepted and followed tafsirs known to all muslims. It can be found at: http://www.tafsir.com

I realize this ended up in an extremely long post, but it was the only way to clear false interpretations of the Qur'an. I think this clearly settles the issue on what the Islamic stand is regarding this, so I'm going to close this topic now lest this tafsir be buried under further spam. If there are follow up questions regarding the tefsir. Or there are other things about this you wish to discus you can pm me to request to re-open the thread.

Edit: Only 3 minutes after closing it I got a lot of requests to open re-open the thread from several brothers with convincing argumenents, So I reopened it.
the reason I closed it was because I was afraid it would lead into people giving there personal interpretation of those verses, which for Muslims is forbidden. But I geuss that was a bit preemptive of me.

[vpb]

Thank you for your detailed responses. I had a long day and will respond to your posts tomorrow – God willing.

I don't know what are you going to reply, but I'm sure , till now , no one has seen any evidence here to support your claims, apart from 'quoted verses out of context'. We already showed you the commenting of the verses, of all the verses u quoted, and I don't know what is there more left to say . We muslims are obligated to go to Qur'an and Sunnah for every thing we need to know. For it is the book which has made truth clear from error, and Qur'an and Sunnah is enough for us.
I also want to mention the point again that Qur'an teaches the same thing as the Injeel (Gospel) sent to Jesus, and Torah to Moses. So since we believe bible and torah are corrupted, and Qur'an is sent to confirm the last two ones, there is no logical reason to go and read the Bible, cuz Qur'an already is sent for that.

:)

But we look forward to your further comments, if there is anything left for u to clarify :)

A big difference between the Bible and the Quran is that we have record of the circumstances of revelation through hadith that sheds additional understanding on the Quran. We also have volumes of books written on the biography of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from authentic hadith that give us a detailed record of his life. In contrast we know very little about the life of Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Actually, if we would start drawing information from "Quran and Sunnah" and "nowdays Bible", you would get a much longer biography of Jesus from Qur'an and Sunnah than from the nowdays Bible. With all respect to christians, the biography of Jesus (the God that they believe in), is very incomplete, which I would not be happy with, of not having a explanation of who Jesus a.s was.

BTW I suppose that you know that they equate Muhammad (pbuh) not with Jesus (pbuh), but rather with Paul. They hold the letters (Romans, I & II Corinthians, Gallations, etc.) written by a reformed persecutor of Christians as to be the "inspired Word of God" and they hold the Quran as no more than myth and fables.

1. Muhammed saws was a Messenger from Allah, while Paul was someone who used to chase and kill christians and suddenly became inspired to write the word of God.
2. We know every single detail about Muhammed saws, even how he had shower, while we know nothing about Paul nothing, but few words.
3. Applying the system of verifying the authenticity of hadith to the bible, would return the state of bible as daif (weak) . There is no information to prove the authenticity of the "statements made by Jesus" in the bible.
4. Muhammed recieved a direct revelation, while Paul just wrote what he thought was right.
5.Bc they hold Qur'an as myth or fables , it doesn't bother me, Allah has made truth clear from error, if they want to believe or not that's up to them.
6.(with all respect to christians), Bible contains errors in every single field , wether prophetic , scientific, psychological or social .
7. People have been challenged to bring a surah (chapter) like of that Qur'an, and no one has been able to do it.

so I don't mind if they equate Muhammed with Paul or not, or Qur'an is a myth or not, truth has been made clear from error. Whomsoever believes it, will find the reward with Allah, who doesn't , will not. inshaAllah.

[vpb]

I just passed over this saying of Ibn Abbas in the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir and I thought of pasting it here, since it's connected to the topic.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Surah Al-Baqara, "Woe unto Those Criminals among the Jews".

Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari.

[MustafaMc]

I just passed over this saying of Ibn Abbas in the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir and I thought of pasting it here, since it's connected to the topic.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Surah Al-Baqara, "Woe unto Those Criminals among the Jews".

Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari.

Subhan'Allah, Brother, this hadith clearly demonstrates the Muslim position on the scriptures revealed prior to the Quran. There is no need for anyone to search further and to lift Quranic verses out of context in order to twist the meaning to try and prove differently.

Muslims are under absolutely no compulsion to read the Bible, the Torah or the books of any other religion. In fact, I strongly discourage reading of the Bible unless one is thoroughly knowledgeable of the Quran. The Quran must be used as the standard by which one judges whether something in the Bible is from Allah or not. If one is not knowledgeable of the Truth revealed in the Quran, he or she may become misled away from the Straight Way.

[vpb]

:sl:

Muslims are under absolutely no compulsion to read the Bible, the Torah or the books of any other religion. In fact, I strongly discourage reading of the Bible unless one is thoroughly knowledgeable of the Quran. The Quran must be used as the standard by which one judges whether something in the Bible is from Allah or not. If one is not knowledgeable of the Truth revealed in the Quran, he or she may become misled away from the Straight Way.

Exactly, I mean what's the logic behind reading bible if the Qur'an was sent specially to correct the books that were changed through time (Injeel[Bible]) and Torah). Let's take for example AntiVirus programs, when you connect to internet, the old database of information for viruses (in your computer) is checked with the new database of viruses (on internet), and if it is old, then the database is updated with more information from the new database on internet. So how could you go back to read Bible if Qur'an is sent? It's like telling the software to change the new database which has the new correct information, to the old one. It would mess up everything. Common sense is needed to answer to the question of this thread.

Maybe Christians are the one who should read Qur'an.

As Allah says in the Qur'an:

3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

I had to complete an urgent project. I apologise for not responding yesterday as planned.

Hi Vpb:

It seems that the Tafsir is essentially a well respected commentary. The Bible has many well respected commentaries; however, one person’s commentary is still one person’s opinion.

We should agree on the following when trying to find the truth.

a) An opinion may be scholarly based and generally accepted, but it is still an opinion.

b) All human opinions are biased and can be challenged as new information becomes available.

c) Intellectually honest scholars acknowledge their biases and must consciously minimise this bias in the presentation of their research.

I will reference the Tafsir in my research, but it should not conflict with a commonsense reading of the Qu’ran.

Let us now examine my statements and the supporting verses.

1. Muslims must believe the books that came before

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Vpb, MustafaMc, and Abdul Fattah: your detailed responses and tafsirs supported my assertion that Muslims had to BELIEVE the Books.

2. The Books included the Torah and Gospel

5:44 - Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

5:46 - And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Vpb, MustafaMc, and Abdul Fattah: your detailed responses supported my assertion that the Books included the Torah and the Gospel. Abdul Fattah, your tafsir actually included an account proving that the Torah was available during Mohammed’s time and that Mohammed used it. Your response also showed that Mohammed was concerned that persons were misinterpreting what was written, as was Jesus.

(Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought the Tawrah and read from it until the reader reached the verse about stoning.

Also, MustafaMc, 5:48 clearly states “and follow not their vain desires”. This seems to indicate that you must not follow their corrupt behaviour. It does not support your assertion that Muslims are not to read the Books. The tafsirs clearly show that Mohammed trusted the Books enough to use them as shown above.

3. The Koran admonishes persons to not simply believe but study and follow the previous books.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

Here we seem to have a difference of opinion. Therefore let us therefore examine the context.

6:154: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
155: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
156: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
157: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.

I believe that the Book in 156 is the same Book referred to in 154 and 157. I welcome your opinions.

4. Muslims are given the primary responsibility of copying and distributing the Books sent before that all nations may believe.

6:89 - 90 - These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

Since there seems to be some disagreement, let us therefore again look at the context to identify who these men were..

Guidance is given to Abraham:
6:83 - That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: …

Then his descendants also found in the Old Testament of the Bible:
6:84 - We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:

Then into the New Testament:
6:85 - And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:

So the Book appears to be the Bible.

Let me suggest that we simply present our evidence and stop the accusations of taking verses out of context. If the verses are taken out of context, then provide some evidence so that we may all benefit. Do not simply make unsupported assertions in which no one benefits.

Regards,
Grenville

[MustafaMc]

As far as I am concerned the question asked in the title "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?" has been definitively answered in the negative. No further discussion is warranted.

[doorster]

as MustafaMC said,

As far as I am concerned the question asked in the title "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?" has been definitively answered in the negative. No further discussion is warranted.

and I concurred

[Woodrow]

Thread reopened. Keep all posts on topic please.

[Walter]

Hi MustafaMc & Doorster:

Your responses are incredible. Perhaps you forgot the sequence of recent events.

1. I was asked to provide verses from the Qu’ran to support Mohammed instructing Muslims to read the Books sent before which are in the Bible.

2. I provided the verses. It was then claimed that I took the verses out of context and that I had to read the Tafsir to gain understanding. Relevant sections of the Tafsir were then provided to explain the verses that I had provided.

3. The sections of the Tafsir that were quoted actually supported the claim that Muslims were instructed to read and believe Books in the Bible. Further, they provided evidence that the Books were available to Mohammed and he instructed others to read them. I also provided other verses to show that I had not taken any verse out of context.

4. Rather than examine the verses and the Tafsir, you comply conclude, without any supporting information whatsoever:

As far as I am concerned the question asked in the title "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?" has been definitively answered in the negative. No further discussion is warranted.

I am sure that you can do better than that.

Thankx for reopening this thread Woordow.

Regards,
Grenville

[doorster]

for me,best way to deal with you is to not take part in this frivolous waste of time thread. I hope Br.MustafaMc does the same!

wa salam

[vpb]

1. I was asked to provide verses from the Qu’ran to support Mohammed instructing Muslims to read the Books sent before which are in the Bible.

2. I provided the verses. It was then claimed that I took the verses out of context and that I had to read the Tafsir to gain understanding. Relevant sections of the Tafsir were then provided to explain the verses that I had provided.

3. The sections of the Tafsir that were quoted actually supported the claim that Muslims were instructed to read and believe Books in the Bible. Further, they provided evidence that the Books were available to Mohammed and he instructed others to read them. I also provided other verses to show that I had not taken any verse out of context.

4. Rather than examine the verses and the Tafsir, you comply conclude, without any supporting information whatsoever:

If you want to believe muslims are obligated to read Bible, then believe, we have shown you plenty of proof that we are NOT obligated to read bible, but u still keep insisting that we are. so why are you still discussing this topic if you already ""know the answer"" ???

The sections of the Tafsir that were quoted actually supported the claim that Muslims were instructed to read and believe Books in the Bible.

To be obligated to believe in a book is totally different from being obligated to read it.

It is part of our faith to believe in previous revelations (that they were sent).

Further, they provided evidence that the Books were available to Mohammed and he instructed others to read them. I also provided other verses to show that I had not taken any verse out of context.

No they didn't, read them again. but again I'm saying if that is what you want to believe , do it, but don't try to tell people that we are obligated to read Bible. as I mentioned above, even without any evidence, just using simple logic is enough to come to the answer of this question,

first, Why was Qur'an sent?
To put people's beliefs on the straight path (on worshiping Allah swt alone without partners), to confirm the other books sent before, since they got corrupted through time.

3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it;and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

second, is the bible today the bible that Qur'an is talking about???

No, because the bible today is written by humans, Paul, Matthew, John.......etc. While the bible that Allah swt is talking about is a revelation from Allah swt.

but as MustafaMC said,

As far as I am concerned the question asked in the title "Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible?" has been definitively answered in the negative. No further discussion is warranted.

there is no point in discussing this, the answer has been answered no, and it is very clear, unless you are trying to convince us to start read Bible. :)

[Umar001]

I have been meaning to finish a reply to this for a while, I will do so in abit.

This thread has mainly been looking at the potential verses which one could use to oblige muslims to read the Bible. It has been ignoring the evidences that Muslims are not to read the Bible. Ones the former are seen in light of the latters then maybe things will be shown more clearly.

[Grace Seeker]

Of all posts, I can't believe that yours has dragged me into this (probably meaningless) debate.

I have been meaning to finish a reply to this for a while, I will do so in abit.

This thread has mainly been looking at the potential verses which one could use to oblige muslims to read the Bible. It has been ignoring the evidences that Muslims are not to read the Bible. Ones the former are seen in light of the latters then maybe things will be shown more clearly.

Are you acknowledging in the above statement that there are verses that one might read which would seem to oblige Muslims to have response "A" toward the Bible and other verses that would oblige Muslims to have response "not-A"?

Personally, I don't have a problem with that, all things must be read in context and so verses taken out of context might indeed appear to present contradictory statements that are not truly there. But I am just wanting to be clear, that you believe that such apparent contradictory statements are made within the Qur'an?

[Umar001]

Of all posts, I can't believe that yours has dragged me into this (probably meaningless) debate.

Are you acknowledging in the above statement that there are verses that one might read which would seem to oblige Muslims to have response "A" toward the Bible and other verses that would oblige Muslims to have response "not-A"?

Personally, I don't have a problem with that, all things must be read in context and so verses taken out of context might indeed appear to present contradictory statements that are not truly there. But I am just wanting to be clear, that you believe that such apparent contradictory statements are made within the Qur'an?

I don't think its as you say 'apparent contradictory statements' I think its more of, where theres a will theres a way. I can't find the quote but I assume you have heard it, from the Bible. Here;

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

I don't think its a matter of genuine confusion, I think its more of a matter, as I would understand the above, of I dont like this, I have my beliefs so let me find something in such and such place to prove it. Like the people used John's eating and not drinking as 'evidence' of him being a demon, and then used Jesus' eating and drinking as 'evidence' of him being a glutton, I think so similarly some will use 'evidence' to prove A B or C.

When I said one could use, I meant, if one totally striped this of immidiete context, rational interepretation, whole context, etc. Like this verse; So woe unto those performers of Salāt (prayers).

[Walter]

Hi Vpb and Doorster:

As I said, you asked for evidence and I provided it to you. I was then provided with a LOT of Tafsir information by Abdul Fattah which I took the time to read and found that it supported the evidence that I provided to you. You then completely ignored all of the information and made unsupported conclusions.

If you want to believe Muslims are obligated to read Bible, then believe, we have shown you plenty of proof that we are NOT obligated to read bible, but u still keep insisting that we are.

You seem to have simply ignored my post. Do you not realize that your “proof” actually supports that Muslims should read the Books that came before? Please re-read my post #218.

first, Why was Qur'an sent?

Thank you for asking this question. I agree that one of the principal reasons is to confirm what was sent before. What does confirm mean in the context in which is was mentioned. It seems to mean to confirm their authenticity and reliability.

is the bible today the bible that Qur'an is talking about?

Thank you for asking another question. It is clear that the Bible today is the same Bible that the Qu’ran mentions and sufficient evidence has been provided in this thread to confirm this. The most recent evidence is in the Tafsir: Mohammed asked the Jews to bring the Torah and read it in his presence. He then advised them to follow what it said.

there is no point in discussing this, the answer has been answered no, and it is very clear, unless you are trying to convince us to start read Bible.

You have answered “no”, but that does not mean that the answer is no, especially when the evidence that you provide clearly supports an answer of ‘Yes”. I am hoping that you will obey the Qu’ran and read the books that came before.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

You noted:

This thread has mainly been looking at the potential verses which one could use to oblige muslims to read the Bible. It has been ignoring the evidences that Muslims are not to read the Bible. Ones the former are seen in light of the latters then maybe things will be shown more clearly.

When I started reading the Qu’ran, one of the things that stood out clearly to me was Mohammed’s admonition that Muslims should believe the Books that came before, and have the confidence to believe that what is contained in those Books is authentic. In addition to other verses presented in this post, such an admonition seems to confirm that Muslims should not be afraid of reading Books in the Bible.

Please note that I do not ignore any evidence, especially evidence that does not support my opinions. I have no interest in being mislead or being intellectually dishonest and I am fully aware of the dire consequences for misleading others. Intentionally misleading other people appears to carry a similar penalty as idolatry and murder. I wish to know the truth and I have no problem changing my opinion when clear and explicit evidence is presented and has been found to be incontrovertible after being tested with conscientious critical analysis.

You are introducing a new concept with which I am unfamiliar, and I would appreciate it if you could provide these verses from the Qu’ran that forbid Muslims from reading the Bible. I must agree that if such explicit verses do exist and can withstand scrutiny, then the question may have to be answered in the negative.

Regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Howdy,

When I started reading the Qu’ran, one of the things that stood out clearly to me was Mohammed’s admonition that Muslims should believe the Books that came before, and have the confidence to believe that what is contained in those Books is authentic. In addition to other verses presented in this post, such an admonition seems to confirm that Muslims should not be afraid of reading Books in the Bible.

What I see the problem in the above as an example is, taking the command to believe that God sent books in the past, and then using it, with a leap of unexplained logic, to justify or support that Muslims are Obligated to read the Bible.

One line of reasoning, which only covers one aspects of the problems brought from such a view, which you have followed is that in order for mankind to believe in something it needs to be with them, I say not neccesarily, if we God tells us to believe in something, we do not need to question it, if God tells us, there's a book on mars which he revealed to an alien, we do not need to read it to believe that He did do that. If you feel we need to know every word of God, then that's your choice, I don't think we do need to know every word of God in every past scripture to believe it if we have God himself telling us he sent it to people before.

Please note that I do not ignore any evidence, especially evidence that does not support my opinions.

Sorry to say, though I do think you are genuine in your search, I have yet to find any replies to proofs provided by some before.

You are introducing a new concept with which I am unfamiliar, and I would appreciate it if you could provide these verses from the Qu’ran that forbid Muslims from reading the Bible.

So now we have moved from, are Muslims obligated to read the Bible to are Muslims forbiden to read the Bible? The connotations which sorround such phrases are what troubles me. 'Are Muslims obligated to read the Bible' gives a hint of the Bible now, having authority and being spoken of in the Qur'an and being unchanged, this is why I objected, because of that unseperable view.

As for 'Are Muslims forbiden to read the Bible' then I don't see why Muslims would be, would a Muslim be forbiden to read the Bible if he is doing so to try to understand what may have happend, whilst not believing the Bible to be the word of God?

To me that is the crucial difference. When you say Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Bible, that brings connotation that the Islam teaches the Bible 1. Is The Book refered to in the Qur'an 2. Has not changed.

I think Islam does not oblige or forbid the reading of the Bible unless you provide more specific of a question. :) I.e. Are Muslims allowed to read the Bible to derive rulings for their religion, I think thats a clear no.

I must agree that if such explicit verses do exist and can withstand scrutiny, then the question may have to be answered in the negative.

Well if you want to change the topic from does Islam Obligate Muslims to read the Bible, to does Islam forbid Muslims to read the Bible then a new thread would be more appropiate.

I am still in the process of finishing my answer, I've become more indulged in textual critisism and Biblical History, so time is of the essence as I am sure you'll understand. :

Regards,

Eesa.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

1.0 Muslims to Read Books in the Bible

Let me clarify the issue about the Bible - a clarification that I have made repeatedly throughout this thread.

The Qu’ran speaks about the Books that came before. Copies of these books are within the Bible. Now we may disagree on the quality of the copying; however, the Torah and Prophets etc, are in the Bible.


2.0 Verses Forbidding Muslims From Reading the Bible

Al Habeshi, I did not introduce this topic. You stated:

This thread has mainly been looking at the potential verses which one could use to oblige muslims to read the Bible. It has been ignoring the evidences that Muslims are not to read the Bible. Ones the former are seen in light of the latters then maybe things will be shown more clearly.

Well if there is evidence in the Qu’ran that forbids Muslims from reading the Books that came before, or books in the Bible, then that evidence is critically relevant to this thread. Actually to quote you “things will be shown more clearly.” Al Habeshi, I urge you to present this evidence for scrutiny.

Regards,
Grenville

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Hi,

1.0 Muslims to Read Books in the Bible

Let me clarify the issue about the Bible - a clarification that I have made repeatedly throughout this thread.

The Qu’ran speaks about the Books that came before. Copies of these books are within the Bible. Now we may disagree on the quality of the copying; however, the Torah and Prophets etc, are in the Bible.

Giving something the same name does not make it the same thing. If there are scholars which say that there are 4 indipendent sources for the books of Moses are we then to say that since this is held by Jews as the Torah of Moses then it truly is?

2.0 Verses Forbidding Muslims From Reading the Bible

Al Habeshi, I did not introduce this topic. You stated:

Well if there is evidence in the Qu’ran that forbids Muslims from reading the Books that came before, or books in the Bible, then that evidence is critically relevant to this thread. Actually to quote you “things will be shown more clearly.” Al Habeshi, I urge you to present this evidence for scrutiny.

Regards,
Grenville

There is no problem in doing so, but what I wanted to make clear is that if Islam does not prohibit the reading of the Bible this does in no way indicate that it means the Bible has not been changed or anything. That's what I wanted to say.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Since we are returning to the authenticity of the Books, then let us try and put this issue “to bed”. Please follow my reasoning below.

1. I believe that we are in agreement that the original documents are probably not available. However, copies are available.

2. We are in disagreement on the quality of the copying.

3. Mohammed referred to the Books that came before and even had portions of these Books read in his presence. He also instructed the reader to obey what was written.

4. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Mohammed felt that the copies had sufficient integrity to be followed.

5. Manuscripts of the Books in the Bible can be seen today in the British Library, and some predate Mohammed by about 500 years.

6. The Qu’ran records Mohammed’s distrust of Rabbis and Monks who had copies of these documents in their possession.

Therefore, even if we assume that the copying was not the best quality, it was certainly good enough for Mohammed to recommend that they be read and followed.

Verses have been provided repeatedly throughout this thread to support these points and they have withstood scrutiny by others. If you wish me to reproduce them, then I would be happy to do so.

Let me clarify the title of this post. I have asked, “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Bible? The post could have been phrased: “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Books that came Before?” However, since I believe that these Books are contained in the Bible, I asked the former question.

Regards,
Grenville

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Since we are returning to the authenticity of the Books, then let us try and put this issue “to bed”. Please follow my reasoning below.

1. I believe that we are in agreement that the original documents are probably not available. However, copies are available.

2. We are in disagreement on the quality of the copying.

3. Mohammed referred to the Books that came before and even had portions of these Books read in his presence. He also instructed the reader to obey what was written.

4. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Mohammed felt that the copies had sufficient integrity to be followed.

5. Manuscripts of the Books in the Bible can be seen today in the British Library, and some predate Mohammed by about 500 years.

6. The Qu’ran records Mohammed’s distrust of Rabbis and Monks who had copies of these documents in their possession.

Therefore, even if we assume that the copying was not the best quality, it was certainly good enough for Mohammed to recommend that they be read and followed.

Verses have been provided repeatedly throughout this thread to support these points and they have withstood scrutiny by others. If you wish me to reproduce them, then I would be happy to do so.

Let me clarify the title of this post. I have asked, “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Bible? The post could have been phrased: “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Books that came Before?” However, since I believe that these Books are contained in the Bible, I asked the former question.

Regards,
Grenville

I want to see if I understand your point, so let me restate it in my own words:

Muhammad (pbuh) instructed a person who read from the books of Moses to obey what he had read from those books. It does not follow that Muhammad (pbuh) would do this if he had any doubt as to their integrity. Any distrust that we read about is not levelled at the books themselves, but at those who tried to interpret them to others.

Is that pretty much the gist of what you are saying?

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Since we are returning to the authenticity of the Books, then let us try and put this issue “to bed”. Please follow my reasoning below.

1. I believe that we are in agreement that the original documents are probably not available. However, copies are available.

Copies of copies....of copies are available, ok.

2. We are in disagreement on the quality of the copying.

I guess so.

3. Mohammed referred to the Books that came before and even had portions of these Books read in his presence. He also instructed the reader to obey what was written.

Two points I want to make,

Did the portions of the Books read in his presence equate with the Revevaltions he spoke of.

Where did he instruct people to obey what was written.

A follow up, when we see that he did, then what does this mean? Does it mean that it is the Word of God? Or does it mean that people were allowed to rule by their own laws to a certain extent?

4. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Mohammed felt that the copies had sufficient integrity to be followed.

Does the allowance of non Muslims to judge by their own laws means their laws are God's law, that's a point that needs to be adressed.

5. Manuscripts of the Books in the Bible can be seen today in the British Library, and some predate Mohammed by about 500 years.

Yet, there is no clear cut consensus on the whole book. Furthermore, do we know which type of manuscripts had reached the people Jews in Arabia?

6. The Qu’ran records Mohammed’s distrust of Rabbis and Monks who had copies of these documents in their possession.

Also, claims those who follow the story of Jesus being crucified as following conjecture. On top also claims that those who claim God is three and Jesus is God are total non believers.

Therefore, even if we assume that the copying was not the best quality, it was certainly good enough for Mohammed to recommend that they be read and followed.

There's a difference between letting people utilise their own laws, and commanding his own followers to follow such laws. Also theres a difference, between letting people follow what they hold to be God's word and saying it is God's word.

Verses have been provided repeatedly throughout this thread to support these points and they have withstood scrutiny by others. If you wish me to reproduce them, then I would be happy to do so.

You can do so, but I have yet to see clear cut verses that obligate Muslims to read the Bible, or to read the Injeel of Jesus or the Torah of Moses, what we do see is people bringing verses that the Muslims have to believe in the Word of God, including the previous revelations, to then say this means that they have to study each revelation is in my opinion a farfetched idea.

Let me clarify the title of this post. I have asked, “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Bible? The post could have been phrased: “Are Muslims Obligated to Read the Books that came Before?” However, since I believe that these Books are contained in the Bible, I asked the former question.

But even if Islam says read the Injeel or Torah, that would not mean, read the books of Isaiah and the Book of Corinthians. This is why the title, are Muslims obligated to read the Bible is by defult wrong, nevertheless we understood what you meant.

Eesa.

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

It seems that our principal area of disagreement is whether Muslims should read the Books that came before. Before we get into that debate, let us at least agree on the suitability of these Books. As before, let us see where we have agreement and then move on from there.

1. We can agree that all who follow God’s revelation are acceptable to God, whether Muslim following the Qu’ran or Jews and Christians following the Books that were sent before.

5:43-5:47 show that the Books that came before were available and recommended by Mohammed to be used by Jews and Christians.

5:48 - To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Please note a few things here.

1. The Books that came before have been confirmed or validated by the Qu’ran.
2. Muslims are to follow God’s revelation and not corrupt persons’ “vain desires”.
3. Those who follow God’s revelations whether contained in the Bible or the Qu’ran are on the right path.

See supporting verses are provided below.

5:66 - If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

So some Jews and Christians who followed their scriptures during Mohammed’s time, were on the right course.

5:69 - Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

This concept is confirmed repeatedly in the Qu’ran and there is no evidence that Monks and Rabbis would have had any other scriptures to follow than what is contained in the Bible. We can argue about some of the books and the quality of copying until the Lord returns but we must always remember: The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;. (5:48)

Therefore I believe that we can agree that these books are beneficial to the people of the Book. The question that you queried was, does this mean that Muslims must also read them. I will respond to that shortly.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Grace Seeker:

The gist of what I am saying follows.

Mohammed came into contact with persons who called themselves Christians. They did not believe that he was a Prophet, mocked the religious traditions that he was trying to institute, like prayers at specific times etc, and essentially tried to discourage him.

Perhaps it was the Muslims claim to a relationship with their God, or that they appeared more devout than those following the Christian tradition; but for some reason, they refused to honestly engage him. Much of the Qu’ran therefore is Mohammed telling his followers how to answer those who question or reject their Islamic tradition. Mohammed’s frustration with such persons is clearly evident, but has been misinterpreted as hatred towards Christians and Jews rather than a combination of frustration and pity (that they rejected God’s revelations).

Mohammed is careful to explain to his followers that what God revealed before is beneficial; however, many from the previous groups (Jews and Christians) did not follow it and behaved corruptly. In my most recent post to Al Habeshi, we see that Mohammed acknowledged that some Christians who followed the Books sent before were on the right path. It is clear that the only Boks (scriptures) that Rabbi’s and Monks would have had in their possession around 600 AD would be contained in the Bible, and we have Bibles from before that time and in that region despite Al Habeshi's unwillingness to accept this.

The Codex Sinaiticus (330-350 AD) is on permanent display at the British Museum for all to see. The latest research suggests that it was one of the 50 Bibles commissioned by Constantine after his conversion to Christianity and that it was written in Egypt. We know that the Bible is the most copied Book in the world and even Mohammed came across persons with copies in their hands some 300 years later, probably copied from the same Codex Sinaiticus in Egypt.

Now, as explained to Al Habeshi, we can debate meaninglessly for the remainder of our lives on the quality of copying; however, Mohammed considered the quality acceptable for use by Christians and Jews and declared that if they followed their scriptures, that they would be on the right path.

We will now investigate whether Muslims are also obligated to read and follow these Scriptures, which are contained in the Bible, or whether the Qu’ran is sufficient for them.

Regards,
Grenville

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Sorry about the delay – some work and other commitments had to be addressed.

The issue at hand is: are Muslims obligated to read these Books that came before. The Qu’ran does not say that Muslims are to believe that God’s revelation was sent to people before, it says to believe the actual scriptures themselves in the same manner that they believe the Qu'ran. This requires that Muslims either read or hear the Qu'ran and the Books that came before for themselves.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

The Qu’ran further instructs Muslims not only to believe what is written in the Books sent before, but to follow or obey what is written in them.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:

I understand that there is some concern over whether the Book referred to in “And this is a Book …” refers to Books contained in the Bible. However, let us look at the context.

6:154: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
155: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
156: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
157: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.

The Book referred to in 154, 156 and 157 are clearly the Books sent before which are found in the Bible (and again, we can debate forever the quality of the copying). Now, the Book in 155 is clearly referencing the Book in 154 which is older revelation. Therefore Muslims are obligated to read or hear, believe, and follow the Books that came before.

Have a great weekend,
Grenville

[vpb]

This requires that Muslims either read or hear the Qu'ran and the Books that came before for themselves.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

To be commanded to believe in a book doesn't mean to be commanded to read it. It is just that we have to believe in the books that were sent, bc that is what happened, so we can't deny bc if we deny it than basically we are saying that God is telling a lie (astagfirullah). So we believe in Allah, His messengers, angels, books ...... this is the belief.

The Qu’ran further instructs Muslims not only to believe what is written in the Books sent before, but to follow or obey what is written in them.

6:155-156 - And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:

Please stop commenting on verses. The verse here is talking about the Qur'an and not the Bible or Torah.

I understand that there is some concern over whether the Book referred to in “And this is a Book …” refers to Books contained in the Bible. However, let us look at the context.

muslims don't believe in the bible that is today. today we have the bible from humans (paul,matthew etc...) , while the Bible that Qur'an talks about is one book sent from Allah swt to Isa a.s and it's not a "collection of books".

6:154: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

and?? I can't see anywhere where muslims are commanded to read/obey the books of Moses. btw, we can't even find the original book given to Moses.

155: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
156: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

I explainded above, these verses are talking about the Qur'an.

157: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.

again this verse is not talking about Bible or Torah.

[Grace Seeker]

muslims don't believe in the bible that is today. today we have the bible from humans (paul,matthew etc...) , while the Bible that Qur'an talks about is one book sent from Allah swt to Isa a.s and it's not a "collection of books".

Does the Qur'an actually use the word "Bible"(or whatever the Arabic for "Bible" is)? I ask, because the only Bible we have ever had has been in a compilation of books, in other words (in your way of thinking) it has been "the bible from humans". No Bible that could be described as "one book sent from Allah" has ever existed, so why would the Qur'an mention it?

[vpb]

Does the Qur'an actually use the word "Bible"(or whatever the Arabic for "Bible" is)?

the word used is 'Injeel' and that was the name of the book.

I ask, because the only Bible we have ever had has been in a compilation of books, in other words (in your way of thinking) it has been "the bible from humans".

that's what you believe, but the bible we believe in, is the bible (Injeel), sent from Allah swt .

No Bible that could be described as "one book sent from Allah" has ever existed, so why would the Qur'an mention it?

again you are making your statement using christian beliefs. We believe the books Jesus a.s was sent with is a book from Allah. and is not the book you believe today which were written by those people.

[Grace Seeker]

the word used is 'Injeel' and that was the name of the book.

that's what you believe, but the bible we believe in, is the bible (Injeel), sent from Allah swt .
again you are making your statement using christian beliefs. We believe the books Jesus a.s was sent with is a book from Allah. and is not the book you believe today which were written by those people.

Oh, I very much understand that we are talking about different books. Given that we are, I don't think it is wise to use the same name to refer to both of them. As you said the word is Injeel. Also as you said, the Injeel is not the Bible that Christians speak of. Therefore, it is inappropriate for Muslims to speak of the Bible of the Christians being corrupted, based on a comment that we don't have the Injeel. They are different books. Imagine saying that Harry Potter was corrupted because it wasn't the Injeel. Doesn't make any sense does it? So, as the Bible that Christians possess is not intended to be the Injeel that Muslims believe was given to Moses or Jesus, then it is wrong to condemn it for not being something that it does not claim to be. It is a completely different type of record than the Injeel.

Which does bring us back to a question related to this thread -- why would Mohammad even suggest that Muslims believe in this book that is not the Injeel? Or is that your point, Muhammad was telling his people to believe in the Injeel, but was not telling them to read the Bible in order to find that Injeel?

[Ubaidah]

I would highly recommend a Muslim/Jew/etc. to read the Bible. Not for factual reference, but in order to better understand what each religious sects believe.

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

Therefore, it is inappropriate for Muslims to speak of the Bible of the Christians being corrupted,

so at least your understand now...christians are not christian without Injeel that Allah put in Isa mouth...

when Muslim tell you the Bible is corrupt...it's means the bible corrupted the mission and teaching of Isa (as).

[Grace Seeker]

salam.



so at least your understand now...christians are not christian without Injeel that Allah put in Isa mouth...

I find this to be a statement that I cannot agree with.

when Muslim tell you the Bible is corrupt...it's means the bible corrupted the mission and teaching of Isa (as).

Well, this is what YOU mean by the Bible being corrupt. I have a sense that others mean other things by it, as we cannot even get a consistent answer to my question in another thread on when it was that the Bible was corrupted.

Also, to know that the Bible corrupted the teaching of Jesus, wouldn't you have to have a record of the true Injeel delivered by Jesus to compare it with. Perhaps you are wrong in the assumption that the record of the Bible is not a true record of the mission and teaching of Jesus. Do you have another contemporaneous record of what Jesus' mission and teaching was that Christians are not aware of?

[MustafaMc]

Oh, I very much understand that we are talking about different books. Given that we are, I don't think it is wise to use the same name to refer to both of them. As you said the word is Injeel. Also as you said, the Injeel is not the Bible that Christians speak of. Therefore, it is inappropriate for Muslims to speak of the Bible of the Christians being corrupted, based on a comment that we don't have the Injeel. They are different books. Imagine saying that Harry Potter was corrupted because it wasn't the Injeel. Doesn't make any sense does it? So, as the Bible that Christians possess is not intended to be the Injeel that Muslims believe was given to Moses or Jesus, then it is wrong to condemn it for not being something that it does not claim to be. It is a completely different type of record than the Injeel.

I fully agree with you that the Injeel and the 4 NT gospels are not the same thing. We Muslims believe that the Injeel was the revelation given directly to Jesus (as) that he shared with his disciples and other followers while he walked among them. I believe that fragments of the Injeel are captured in the gospels such as the Beatitudes, various parables and prophesy about the coming of the Comforter.

Also, to know that the Bible corrupted the teaching of Jesus, wouldn't you have to have a record of the true Injeel delivered by Jesus to compare it with. Perhaps you are wrong in the assumption that the record of the Bible is not a true record of the mission and teaching of Jesus. Do you have another contemporaneous record of what Jesus' mission and teaching was that Christians are not aware of?

Although I am sure that you believe the Gospel of Barnabas is a Muslim fabrication, we Muslims believe that it may be a more accurate account of Jesus' life and teachings than the 4 NT gospels.

I think that we can agree that the disciples did not preserve (even take notes) what was revealed to Jesus (as) immediately as he spoke. Contrast this to the Quran which was written and memorized immediately as it was being revealed and what had been revealed was recited each year during the month of Ramaddan.

The only portion of the NT that can be claimed to be comparable to the Injeel is the gospels. Acts was written to record the actions of the disciples after Jesus' ascension, the letters to the churches were written by Saul/Paul who apparently never even met Jesus during his life on earth and Revelation was apparently a revelation given to John. It is clear that the gospels are narrative stories written from memory many years after Jesus' ascensionand that they are not the revelation "in toto" given to Jesus (as).

[pie]
Wikipedia
Gospel's Date of Origin
The following are mostly the date ranges given by the late Raymond E. Brown, in his book An Introduction to the New Testament, as representing the general scholarly consensus in 1996
Mark: c. 68–73
Matthew: c. 70–100 as the majority view; some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85
John: c. 90–110. Brown does not give a consensus view for John, but these are dates as propounded by C K Barrett, among others. The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

Gospel's Authorship
Mark: The gospel itself is anonymous, but as early as Papias in the early 2nd century, a text was attributed to Mark, a disciple of Peter, who is said to have recorded the Apostle's discourses.

Matthew: Although the document is internally anonymous, the authorship of this Gospel has been traditionally ascribed to Matthew the Evangelist, a tax collector who became an Apostle of Jesus. .... Beginning in the 18th century, however, scholars have increasingly questioned that traditional view, and today the majority agree Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name.

Luke: According to this view, Paul's "dear friend Luke the Doctor" (Col 4:14) and "fellow worker" (Phlm 24) makes the most likely candidate for authorship out of all the companions mentioned in Paul's writings. Modern scholarship is divided on these points, with many believing that the author of Luke is unknown.

John: The authorship has been disputed since at least the second century, with mainstream Christianity believing that the author is John the Apostle, son of Zebedee. Modern experts usually consider the author to be an unknown non-eyewitness,....Starting in the 19th century, critical scholarship has further questioned the apostle John's authorship, arguing that the work was written decades after the events it describes.
[/pie]
The dates of origin being many years after Jesus' ascension, the narrative style and the lack of authorship documentation points to the fact that the gospels are not the unadulterated revelation given to Jesus (as). I think that you can agree with this point.

We Muslims can make an analogy between the NT gospels and various hadith recording what Prophet Muhammad (saaws) said and did. Just as there are strong, authentic hadith, so also there are weak and even fabricated hadith attributed to Muhammad (saaws). These hadith were recorded as individual actions and words for a specific situation. There were not collated into a narrative story as were the gospels.

The Quran is the "ver batim" revelation given to Muhammad (saaws) while the NT gospels are not the "ver batim" revelation given to Jesus (as).

Which does bring us back to a question related to this thread -- why would Mohammad even suggest that Muslims believe in this book that is not the Injeel? Or is that your point, Muhammad was telling his people to believe in the Injeel, but was not telling them to read the Bible in order to find that Injeel?

The fact that the NT gospels preserve even fragments of the Injeel points to the fact of Divine revelations being given to previous Prophets - Moses, David, Jesus - of which the Quran is a continuation and termination of the chain. Even Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." is enough for us to believe that ithe Bible contains portions of the Injeel. However, there has been so much added (e.g. letters by Paul) that were not part of the Injeel that it is impossible for the unlearned to discern the fragments of Truth.

[Walter]

Hi Vpb:

Let us clear up some misunderstandings.

1. Believe in a Book

The Qu’ran does not say to believe in a Book, it says:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

So you are not to believe in any scripture, you are to believe the scripture. The Qu’ran indicates that you are to believe “the scripture which He sent to those before” in the same manner that you believe “the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger”. Therefore whether you read it or hear it is up to you, but you must somehow understand and believe it. If you only “believe in” or believe that God sent books, then it seems that you have fallen far far short of the requirement.


2. The Scripture sent before

You noted:

muslims don't believe in the bible that is today. today we have the bible from humans (paul,matthew etc...) , while the Bible that Qur'an talks about is one book sent from Allah swt to Isa a.s and it's not a "collection of books".”

This has to be your personal opinion which you are free to embrace. However, the evidence does not support it.

What is this scripture sent before? The Qu’ran indicates that it is God’s revelations that comprise the “scripture which He sent to those before”. We can debate what this scripture contains, but we can at least agree that it contains words that God spoke to and through His prophets. Therefore, this does not include any narration or commentary, but the actual words spoken by God and Jesus.

This information is contained in the Bible. You can choose to disbelieve the narration, but the Qu’ran directs you to believe the Word of God.

Regards,
Grenville

[vpb]

The Qu’ran does not say to believe in a Book, it says:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him).

The Qu’ran does not say to believe in a Book

so what it is saying then??? muslims to put in practice the bible and torah???

So you are not to believe in any scripture, you are to believe the scripture. The Qu’ran indicates that you are to believe “the scripture which He sent to those before” in the same manner that you believe “the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger”. Therefore whether you read it or hear it is up to you, but you must somehow understand and believe it. If you only “believe in” or believe that God sent books, then it seems that you have fallen far far short of the requirement.

I don't know how are u trying to prove that muslims are obligated to read bible or torah. We already showed u proof that muslims are obligated to believe that Bible and Torah were books sent from Allah swt. And this doesn't include reading bible, bc bible is not the one that Qur'an is talking about, otherwise why would Qur'an be revealed?.

This has to be your personal opinion which you are free to embrace. However, the evidence does not support it.

this is not just my personal opinion, but all muslims' opinion. as you have already seen.

as for the evidence, :) do we really have to go on this? it can be easily proved that bible today is just a derivation of the real book sent from Allah. but I would recommend u to study your own history of Christianity and the gospels, before asking me for evidence :). I don't need now to bring evidence, you should already have seen those evidence :)

What is this scripture sent before? The Qu’ran indicates that it is God’s revelations that comprise the “scripture which He sent to those before”.

yes, they were Allah's revelations. and those were torah injeel.

We can debate what this scripture contains, but we can at least agree that it contains words that God spoke to and through His prophets.

Torah and Injeel taught the same thing as Qur'an teaches. We already have said that all messengers were sent mainly for the message "There is no god worthy of worship but Allah".
but we can find difference on the shariahs (divine laws), which differ at this time and on moses's time etc.

Therefore, this does not include any narration or commentary, but the actual words spoken by God and Jesus.

I don't get this statement.

This information is contained in the Bible. You can choose to disbelieve the narration, but the Qu’ran directs you to believe the Word of God.

We don't say that 100&#37; of bible is false, but majority , especially the main point which is oneness of Allah were altered. So therefore we can take it as a book that has been altered. and that's why Qur'an is sent. This is simple logic.

Why was Qur'an sent?

to confirm other books and fix peoples' beliefs since they change God's word intentionally or unintentionally.

Yes, I agree Qur'an obligates muslims to believe these books that were sent by Allah. But I don't know how you are saying that by saying "you have to believe those books" you are obligated to follow those books.


And simply we cannot follow bible, because many laws are different. So for people from time of Muhammed till the day of judgement, the only source for guidance is the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Does bible contains Surah Al-Fatiha which is required in the prayer?
Does bible contains the laws of performing wudu?
Does bible teaches the same concept of Aqeedah (beliefs) as Qur'an does?
Does bible teaches about the business laws that are taught in the Qur'an?
Does bible teaches about the laws of marriage in Islam (which are taught in Qur'an)??
Does bible teaches of obeying Muhammed saws as Qur'an does?
Does bible teaches the same concept about the angels and other creatures and their degrees/duties??
Does bible have the power of healing people spiritually?
Does bible teaches the same concept of Jesus a.s as Qur'an does?


these are just few.

The only source of guidance from muslims now days to act upon is Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammed saws. Other sources belong to previous nations, to be more specific, to people before Muhammed saws came.

Otherwise so far you have only showed proof that muslims should believe that Bible and Torah were books sent by Allah swt. ( and we do cuz it's part of islamic belief) and we have to believe (accept) them as the books revealed by Allah. But that has nothing to do with acting upon them. they belong to nations before Muhammed. Nothing till now showed the contrary, apart from your own opinions.

[Walter]

Hi Vpb:

Thank you for your post. Please know that we are both looking at the same thing but from different perspectives. You have provided some useful information which I very much appreciate. By providing information, we can see each other’s perspectives a little clearer. If we simply responded by saying “I do not agree”, then there is no opportunity to improve one’s understanding.

The Qu’ran says to believe the scriptures that came before. Since you believe that the scriptures are no longer available, you have reconciled this belief with what the Qu’ran has stated by interpreting the Qu’ran to say “believe that Allah sent Scriptures before”.

The problem is that the Qu’ran does not say this. It says that you must believe the scriptures them selves. Which means that you must read or hear them?

But how can this be if the scriptures sent before are no longer available? That is the problem. That is the issue that you should be trying to resolve rather than inventing something that the Qu’ran simply does not say. It is easy to misinterpret a verse to avoid dealing with the consequences of following it.

There has been sufficient evidence provided in this thread to confirm that Mohammed saw the scriptures that were sent before. The evidence is irrefutable. For example.

1. Torah was available according to the Tafsir

(Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought the Tawrah and read from it until the reader reached the verse about stoning.

2. The Torah was available according to the Qu’ran

2. 7:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

3. Mohammed accepted the validity of the Books sent before during his time

5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

5:66 - If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

5:69 - Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

So some Jews and Christians who followed their scriptures during Mohammed’s time (600 AD), were on the right course. This concept is confirmed repeatedly in the Qu’ran and there is no evidence that Monks and Rabbis would have had any other scriptures to follow than what is contained in the Bible. The Codex Sinaiticus (330-350 AD) is on permanent display at the British Museum for all to see. The latest research suggests that it was one of the 50 Bibles commissioned by Constantine and it was written in Egypt. We know that the Bible is the most copied Book and even Mohammed came across persons with copies in their hands some 300 years later, probably copied from the same Codex Sinaiticus in Egypt.

We can argue about some of the books and the quality of copying until the Lord returns but we must always remember: The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;. (5:48)

Therefore your belief that the scriptures are not available is unsupported.

Now you raised a valid concern.

And simply we cannot follow bible, because many laws are different.
Does bible contains Surah Al-Fatiha which is required in the prayer?
Does bible contains the laws of performing wudu?
Does bible teaches the same concept of Aqeedah (beliefs) as Qur'an does?
Does bible teaches about the business laws that are taught in the Qur'an?
Does bible teaches about the laws of marriage in Islam (which are taught in Qur'an)??
Does bible teaches of obeying Muhammed saws as Qur'an does?
Does bible teaches the same concept about the angels and other creatures and their degrees/duties??
Does bible have the power of healing people spiritually?
Does bible teaches the same concept of Jesus a.s as Qur'an does?

We should not be afraid of such questions. If God is God and His word is correct, then we should not fear to give a response. We should certainly not hold an unsupported belief for this can mislead people.

As previously mentioned in this thread, the Qu’ran does not contain everything in the Bible, and the Bible does not contain everything in the Qu’ran. The Bible refers to information which appears to be unavailable, and the Qu’ran refers to the Books that came before. However, both books contain guidance that is beneficial for mankind.

So what are you instructed to do? You are instructed to believe (therefore read or listed and understand) scriptures sent before. As previously noted, it is irrefutable that such scriptures were available to Mohammed and that he sanctioned their use. This idea of them being unavailable is not supported by the Qu’ran.

If you read them, you will find that the things that you think are contradictions may not be so. We should have faith that God will not contradict Himself. The problem is that you neither read it yourselves, neither do you permit those who are willing to read it. Be very careful.

Regards,
Grenville

[vpb]

I and many other muslims have already cleared up this issue, using verses, tafsirs from some of the greatest scholars, we have provided logic examples, and many other examples in general, and you still keep saying that we are obligated to read/follow bible/torah. No evidence at all showed that we are obligated to do such thing apart from your opinions. If you think that you are smarter and know more than some scholars, who some of them even lived with Muhammed saws, and spent their whole life on studying and commenting Qur'an, then I don't have much to say.

and I am not interested on posting anymore in this thread. All you are doing is just making your own conclusions, and just using some out of context verses, and trying to tell our scholars of such a high caliber that they are wrong, and you are right , and trying to comment Qur'anic verses. Although you are not saying that directly, but you are doing it from the corner.
We already know the answer, and it has been made clear.

I can't see the reason behind such a desire to convince muslims that they should follow bible/torah too.

and the Prophet Muhammed saws said:

"I Leave two great and precious things among you: The Book of Allah and My Household"