PDA

View Full Version : Gaza War



MTAFFI
05-17-2007, 07:34 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/...s_palestinians

CAIRO, Egypt - Arab governments appear at a loss how to stop the stunning wave of Palestinian factional fighting, which threatens to wreck the region's already faltering efforts to resume the Arab-Israeli peace process.

ADVERTISEMENT

Arabs watched television footage of the Gaza fighting in despair. "May God curse you all," Egyptian columnist Ahmed Ragab wrote, referring to the Palestinian factions.

The chaos is a heavy blow to U.S. Arab allies who have tried for months to mediate an end to the disputes between the militant Hamas movement and the mainstream

Fatah faction led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Regional power Saudi Arabia has stayed silent about the clashes in Gaza since they began five days ago, a sign of its anger at the two sides and its reluctance to get involved.

The kingdom put its political clout on the line in February when it hosted a summit between Abbas and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal aimed at ending a previous bout of factional fighting. The summit in the holy city of Mecca ended with a deal on a Palestinian unity government that Saudi Arabia touted as a major breakthrough and is now in danger of collapse.

"It is hard to see Saudis or anyone else expending political capital and sticking their neck out for the Palestinians while gunmen controlled by Hamas and Fatah turn Gaza into a homegrown killing field," Lebanon's Daily Star newspaper said in an editorial.

The Gulf Cooperation Council, of which Saudi Arabia is a member, issued a statement urging the two factions "to adhere to the Mecca agreement, which laid down a solid base to overcome the current bottleneck in the Palestinian arena."

Some said the fighting showed the power-sharing deal only papered over the disputes between Hamas and Fatah. "The Mecca agreement didn't get into the deep-rooted divisions between Hamas and Fatah," said Saudi writer Khalid al-Dakhil.

Those who signed onto the deal at Mecca knew it faced opposition from extremists on both sides, said Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor-in-chief of the London-based newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi.

Hamas' military wing was not happy with a freeze in attacks on

Israel, while Fatah hard-liners wanted "to topple the agreement because they don't want a partner or the national unity government," he said.

Other Arab leaders have been able to do little else but call for an end to the fighting. President

Hosni Mubarak, who mediated between Abbas and Mashaal during a meeting in Cairo last month, spoke by phone with Abbas on Thursday, telling him, "Palestinian blood is sacred."

Jordan's King Abdullah II also spoke to Abbas, urging him to show more resolve to end the fighting and to press Hamas to stop rocket attacks on Israel that threaten to widen the conflict.

"The violence must stop for the sake of the Palestinian people, and for the sake of Palestine," the king was quoted as saying in a royal palace statement.

Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — all key U.S. allies — have been trying to persuade the United States and Israel to accept an Arab peace initiative as a starting ground for relaunching peace negotiations. The deal offers full peace with all Arab nations if Israel withdraws from territories captured in the 1967 Middle East War and a Palestinian state is created.

With the Arab countries already struggling to bring Israel on board, the new fighting threatens to make the offer all but irrelevant.

Arab TV stations showed constant images resembling a war zone in Gaza, with masked gunmen in the abandoned streets and people rushing the wounded away on stretchers. Al-Jazeera broadcast live from its offices in Gaza, where journalists in flak jackets and helmets were trapped as gunfire raged outside.

Viewers in the Arab world — long loyal advocates of the Palestinian cause — were stunned and said the turmoil only benefits Israel.

Some blamed the Palestinian factions for a futile fight over power. Zeinab Mohammed, a 21-year-old Egyptian student, said the factions were "serving no one but their own personal interests."

"America, Israel and the whole West want to see us divided," said 47-year-old Kamal Abu-Zeid, wearing thick eyeglasses, and selling newspapers in front of Cairo University.

Sateh Nourredine, managing editor of Lebanon's As-Safir daily, said Gaza "is out of control."

"No one knows where it will lead. They've tried mediation by Egypt, the Arab League and the Mecca agreement. They've had direct talks and a national unity government. Then the situation explodes in this catastrophic way," he told The Associated Press. "There is no political logic to what's happening."
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Keltoi
05-17-2007, 08:44 PM
To have a state its usually necessary to have some kind of stability. The thought of a Palestinian state is irrelevant while they keep killing each other.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 01:28 PM
What is really crazy is if this thread were about Israelis attacking here, there would already be probably 30 posts about zionism, fascists, american influence and the Kuffar and the day of reckoning being near. However when this is posted it seems no one wants to talk about it.... Do you think that could be part of the problem today? When Muslims see other Muslims doing things like this there is a silence, when Muslims see other people doing this there is outrage and instant condemnation. No offence to anyone, it is just a pattern I notice
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What is really crazy is if this thread were about Israelis attacking here, there would already be probably 30 posts about zionism, fascists, american influence and the Kuffar and the day of reckoning being near. However when this is posted it seems no one wants to talk about it.... Do you think that could be part of the problem today? When Muslims see other Muslims doing things like this there is a silence, when Muslims see other people doing this there is outrage and instant condemnation. No offence to anyone, it is just a pattern I notice
Don't speak too soon. There is still time for someone to post an article from prisonplanet about how the U.S. is covertly dressing up American agents as Hamas members to make sure the Palestinians never get a state.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Amadeus85
05-18-2007, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What is really crazy is if this thread were about Israelis attacking here, there would already be probably 30 posts about zionism, fascists, american influence and the Kuffar and the day of reckoning being near. However when this is posted it seems no one wants to talk about it.... Do you think that could be part of the problem today? When Muslims see other Muslims doing things like this there is a silence, when Muslims see other people doing this there is outrage and instant condemnation. No offence to anyone, it is just a pattern I notice
Yes, i agree with you, someone who is not able to see his own failures and bad things is not able to improve and be reformed. Blaming everything on others is maybe a convenient, but it brings stagnation in further times. It is always easier to say that others are responsible( USA, Israel,) than to honestly consider own weaknesses and mistakes.
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 03:29 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Actually it is the U.S., Israel, Egypt and Jordan, who have plotted and fueld this civil war.

Ever since Hamas won the elections, the U.S., EU, and the major Middle Eastern states have plotted to destabilise the Hamas government. That's a fact and has been reported in the Western mainstream media outles.

The U.S. has set aside millions of dillars and military hardware to Abbas and his Fatah organizations, which wil be used to combat Hamas.

The U.S., Israel, Egypt and Jordan, are actively training 10,000 Plaestians (in CIA run bases, in those respective nations) who are loyal to Abbas. They have said that they'll be used against Hamas.

So, the above article which states that the Arabs, and others are stunned by this outcome, are hypocrits and liers.

There were no such clashes like this between the Palestinians before the Hamas victory.

Now everyone is willing to deal with Fatah (which was listed as a terrorist organization, before), as long as it is used to subvert an Islamic government.

Let's not forget about the devastating economic sanctions on an entire people, not Just on Hamas...
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/Peace To All

Actually it is the U.S., Israel, Egypt and Jordan, who have plotted and fueld this civil war.

Ever since Hamas won the elections, the U.S., EU, and the major Middle Eastern states have plotted to destabilise the Hamas government. That's a fact and has been reported in the Western mainstream media outles.

The U.S. has set aside millions of dillars and military hardware to Abbas and his Fatah organizations, which wil be used to combat Hamas.

The U.S., Israel, Egypt and Jordan, are actively training 10,000 Plaestians (in CIA run bases, in those respective nations) who are loyal to Abbas. They have said that they'll be used against Hamas.

So, the above article which states that the Arabs, and others are stunned by this outcome, are hypocrits and liers.

There were no such clashes like this between the Palestinians before the Hamas victory.

Now everyone is willing to deal with Fatah (which was listed as a terrorist organization, before), as long as it is used to subvert an Islamic government.

Let's not forget about the devastating economic sanctions on an entire people, not Just on Hamas...

Right, it is everyone elses fault, I guess you called it Keltoi
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Right, it is everyone elses fault, I guess you called it Keltoi


I presented you with facts, and if you don't believe them to be true, then the burden is on you to prove me wrong.

Put your money where your mouth is, and back up your opinion with concrete evidence that'll support your opinion, and not with sarcastic and evasive remaks...
Reply

Goku
05-18-2007, 04:13 PM
Its outrageous for the Palestinian factions to be fighting each other. They should really concentrate on their Unity government and find ways to end Israel's occupation and oppression.

Keltoi and Mtaffi you are generalising.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Zman


I presented you with facts, and if you don't believe them to be true, then the burden is on you to prove me wrong.

Put your money where your mouth is, and back up your opinion with concrete evidence that'll support your opinion, and not with sarcastic and evasive remaks...
What you are doing is somehow blaming this on other people, the fact that other governments support Fatah and not Hamas (which has vowed to NO peace with Israel or the west) has no relevance as to why they would fight against their own people. Fatah has done nothing to Hamas other than try to work for peace with Israel, that is why the fighting is going on now. As for your comment about everyone being hypocrites, etc., first maybe you should think about that before you make such a comment. Everyone is shocked because there has recently been a relative peace between the two factions which has now, in a matter of less than a week, exploded into a near civil war. So the shock comes from the dramatic change in tone and actions of Hamas. As far as the people being trained for Abbas, please now show your proof of this, and please dont give me some conspiracy site either.
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
05-18-2007, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What is really crazy is if this thread were about Israelis attacking here, there would already be probably 30 posts about zionism, fascists, american influence and the Kuffar and the day of reckoning being near. However when this is posted it seems no one wants to talk about it.... Do you think that could be part of the problem today? When Muslims see other Muslims doing things like this there is a silence, when Muslims see other people doing this there is outrage and instant condemnation. No offence to anyone, it is just a pattern I notice
Its not about being silent, the problem is we have had constant lies coming from the American mainstream and the Israeli's that we simply dont believe them anymore. It doesnt take a genius to see who is behind curbing the peace process, and how America turns a blind eye to Israeli terrorism, instead funds this terrorist campaign. How can there be peace with Israel when their former prime minister was the main cause of the uprising, Areil Sharon was a war criminal and commited many genocides during his time in office too. Simply we dont trust the American government, media, or the Israeli's and with good cause too. Just like the mujahideen in Afghanistan were at first supported by America when it served their interest, them same mujahideen are called terrorist by them now. The Israeli's supported Hamas to counter Fatah, now the same Hamas is called terrorist by Israel. Its strange how you miss these patterns.
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
What you are doing is somehow blaming this on other people, the fact that other governments support Fatah and not Hamas (which has vowed to NO peace with Israel or the west) has no relevance as to why they would fight against their own people. Fatah has done nothing to Hamas other than try to work for peace with Israel, that is why the fighting is going on now. As for your comment about everyone being hypocrites, etc., first maybe you should think about that before you make such a comment. Everyone is shocked because there has recently been a relative peace between the two factions which has now, in a matter of less than a week, exploded into a near civil war. So the shock comes from the dramatic change in tone and actions of Hamas. As far as the people being trained for Abbas, please now show your proof of this, and please dont give me some conspiracy site either.

You never fail to prove us right!

You and others complained that no Muslim will reply to this thread, and when I did, by presenting facts, you again evade the responsibility for providing proof to back up your assertion...
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
All i have to say about this matter is that the fighting that is taking place inshallah is a temporary glitch. Lets hope and prey that their problems are resolved and they can get back to the real enemy. The article mentions that Fatah are the mainstream political organizatioon? what nonsense is that, Hamas was voted in 2006 and they deserve to be the only power in Palestine, but oh know this cant be. A party with Islamic roots and total hatred towards Israel, in power in Palestine.....no way. Fatah at this present moment are not legitimate in their power according to the fundementals of democracy, so why do Hamas have to share power?

Do not tell me that Israeli's are not looking at this and not help to be happy? If they are happy then America is happy. Sure the citizens might not be becuase normal people hate to see bloodshed. But the Israeli and American and Egyption guvernments are not normal people. Rather they are bloodthirsty hypocrites that love the word genocide (just ask Arial Sharon). thats all i have to say.

Yes you are right this fight between the Paletinian's really shows how weak Muslims are at this moment. Lets hope and pray that they can come to a resolution, without outside interferance.

Wasalam
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Its not about being silent, the problem is we have had constant lies coming from the American mainstream and the Israeli's that we simply dont believe them anymore. It doesnt take a genius to see who is behind curbing the peace process, and how America turns a blind eye to Israeli terrorism, instead funds this terrorist campaign. How can there be peace with Israel when their former prime minister was the main cause of the uprising, Areil Sharon was a war criminal and commited many genocides during his time in office too. Simply we dont trust the American government, media, or the Israeli's and with good cause too. Just like the mujahideen in Afghanistan were at first supported by America when it served their interest, them same mujahideen are called terrorist by them now. The Israeli's supported Hamas to counter Fatah, now the same Hamas is called terrorist by Israel. Its strange how you miss these patterns.

I dont care what you think about american media, that doesnt change anything from the fact that I posted this article, and until something was said there is no Muslim response, however if it were an article posted about israel doing this there would be utter chaos on this thread. You can place the blame on whoever you want, but the truth is Muslims need to recognize their own faults to not only get along with each other but the rest of the world too. (rather than picking at everyone elses faults)
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

You never fail to prove us right!

You and others complained that no Muslim will reply to this thread, and when I did, by presenting facts, you again evade the responsibility for providing proof to back up your assertion...
what proof did i not provide? I think it is all there in my quote above
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
All i have to say about this matter is that the fighting that is taking place inshallah is a temporary glitch. Lets hope and prey that their problems are resolved and they can get back to the real enemy. The article mentions that Fatah are the mainstream political organizatioon? what nonsense is that, Hamas was voted in 2006 and they deserve to be the only power in Palestine, but oh know this cant be. A party with Islamic roots and total hatred towards Israel, in power in Palestine.....no way. Fatah at this present moment are not legitimate in their power according to the fundementals of democracy, so why do Hamas have to share power?

Do not tell me that Israeli's are not looking at this and not help to be happy? If they are happy then America is happy. Sure the citizens might not be becuase normal people hate to see bloodshed. But the Israeli and American and Egyption guvernments are not normal people. Rather they are bloodthirsty hypocrites that love the word genocide (just ask Arial Sharon). thats all i have to say.

Yes you are right this fight between the Paletinian's really shows how weak Muslims are at this moment. Lets hope and pray that they can come to a resolution, without outside interferance.

Wasalam
Lets also hope and pray that they can come to peace not only with each other but everyone else too
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
They should really concentrate on their Unity government and find ways to end Israel's occupation and oppression.

Or live in peace with them, thank you for your condemnation of the violence
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I dont care what you think about american media, that doesnt change anything from the fact that I posted this article, and until something was said there is no Muslim response, however if it were an article posted about israel doing this there would be utter chaos on this thread. You can place the blame on whoever you want, but the truth is Muslims need to recognize their own faults to not only get along with each other but the rest of the world too. (rather than picking at everyone elses faults)
Yes we know our fualts and when some one sees somthing that puts them down, then their natural reaction is silence. How would you feel if your nation was divided the way the Palestinian nation is devided? And when someone says "ha look at them fighting each other" your reaction would be silence.
Reply

islamirama
05-18-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Its not about being silent, the problem is we have had constant lies coming from the American mainstream and the Israeli's that we simply dont believe them anymore. It doesnt take a genius to see who is behind curbing the peace process, and how America turns a blind eye to Israeli terrorism, instead funds this terrorist campaign. How can there be peace with Israel when their former prime minister was the main cause of the uprising, Areil Sharon was a war criminal and commited many genocides during his time in office too. Simply we dont trust the American government, media, or the Israeli's and with good cause too. Just like the mujahideen in Afghanistan were at first supported by America when it served their interest, them same mujahideen are called terrorist by them now. The Israeli's supported Hamas to counter Fatah, now the same Hamas is called terrorist by Israel. Its strange how you miss these patterns.
hear! hear! :thumbs_up
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 05:24 PM
Lets be honest with each other shall we. What is this about Palestine? Why is Palestine such a heated debate? Is its history? location? resource? what? What is the agenda of Israel and who is behind them? Ask yourself, what is so important about this strip of land? Do your research and you will see that its all about that city called Jerusalem. But i guess most of yous know that. Instability in Palestine is something that didnt happen naturaly
Reply

Talha777
05-18-2007, 05:26 PM
Fatah is a secular nationalist organization. They only care about political power, they have no real concern for Palestinian Muslims. Hamas was elected by the majority of Palestinians, but Israel, Europe, and America supported Fatah to start this pointless war against democratically elected Hamas government. Palestinians themselves need to get wise and realize who their true defenders are (hamas) and abandon the short-sighted palestinian nationalists (fatah). Fatah had half a century to free Palestine and they failed miserably, now the Palestinians should render their support to Hamas.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Fatah is a secular nationalist organization. They only care about political power, they have no real concern for Palestinian Muslims. Hamas was elected by the majority of Palestinians, but Israel, Europe, and America supported Fatah to start this pointless war against democratically elected Hamas government. Palestinians themselves need to get wise and realize who their true defenders are (hamas) and abandon the short-sighted palestinian nationalists (fatah). Fatah had half a century to free Palestine and they failed miserably, now the Palestinians should render their support to Hamas.
yeah blame it on someone else, it is what you are best at
Reply

Zman
05-18-2007, 06:04 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Al Jazeera Gaza Air Strikes Footage - 17 May 07

Al Jazeera English airs exclusive footage of a series of deadly Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip, one of which struck as Gaza correspondent Nour Odeh was live on air.

YouTube Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUfU...cle17729%2Ehtm
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 06:07 PM
Fatah was a political party which probably deserved to be voted out, but replacing them with a terrorist organization isn't going to improve the state of the Palestinians or their chances of achieving a literal state of their own. Fatah might have been corrupt, but they were bringing in alot of money to Arafat's bank account, which was occassionally used for social programs and the like. With Hamas you will only have bombs and missiles, and the occasional suicide bomber.
Reply

Talha777
05-18-2007, 06:09 PM
but replacing them with a terrorist organization
Of course the mother of all terrorists is America and Israel.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/Peace To All

Al Jazeera Gaza Air Strikes Footage - 17 May 07

Al Jazeera English airs exclusive footage of a series of deadly Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip, one of which struck as Gaza correspondent Nour Odeh was live on air.

YouTube Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUfU...cle17729%2Ehtm

^^ terrible to see, perhaps Hamas should consider these consequences before firing anymore rockets into israel.. do you have a post for those rockets hitting anyone?

here is a story relating to that video

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/...l_palestinians
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Of course the mother of all terrorists is America and Israel.
Do you mean the literal "mother" of all terrorists, or do you mean "mother" like Saddam's "mother of all battles" allusion? Just looking for clarification.

*Don't bother, just being sarcastic
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 06:32 PM
What your opinion or the wordls opinion on Hamas doesnt matter. The palestinian people voted them in. No one gave them a chance to go from a "terrorist group" to a legitimate political party. Its sick to see the double standards that some guvernments have. They carry the torch of democracy and when it suits them they put the light out.
Reply

Keltoi
05-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
What your opinion or the wordls opinion on Hamas doesnt matter. The palestinian people voted them in. No one gave them a chance to go from a "terrorist group" to a legitimate political party. Its sick to see the double standards that some guvernments have. They carry the torch of democracy and when it suits them they put the light out.
It is a little hard to sit around and wait for Hamas to become a political party when at the same time they are firing rockets into Israel.
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
It is a little hard to sit around and wait for Hamas to become a political party when at the same time they are firing rockets into Israel.
Yeah.....and its hard to wait for Hamas to stop the rockets attack while Israel kills more Palestinians? Understand the cycle?
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
Yeah.....and its hard to wait for Hamas to stop the rockets attack while Israel kills more Palestinians? Understand the cycle?
from what I have seen lately, Israel has been responding to attacks and has stated they wouldnt attack unless they were attacked. Seems to me if Hamas would just quit attacking there could be peace..... But I am sure you will be able to tell me different, or show some classic youtube footage
Reply

wilberhum
05-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
Yeah.....and its hard to wait for Hamas to stop the rockets attack while Israel kills more Palestinians? Understand the cycle?
Also understand that if no one is responsible, there is no solution.

If someone else is the cause of all problems, you don’t have any responsibility to help create a solution.

As long as victory is more important than peace, neither will be achieved.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Also understand that if no one is responsible, there is no solution.

If someone else is the cause of all problems, you don’t have any responsibility to help create a solution.

As long as victory is more important than peace, neither will be achieved.
perfectly put, Israel and Palestine are at equal fault, neither will ever win as long as the other has the attitude they maintain today
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 07:54 PM
No i refuse 2 accept that Palestine and Israel are equal at fualts. The very fact that israel came barging in claiming most of the palestinian land is proof enough 2 show that they started the mess. Iamagine ur home, your town, your nation being ripped 2 pieces by bulldowzerz and trucktorz.wat wud you do?would u just step aside and say 'hear u go take it'. Iam sory 2 say that blame lies equaly is insulting. Yes i accept that palestinian have alot 2 answer 2, but compared 2 wat the isralis have 2 answerz too....its so much more.
Reply

wilberhum
05-18-2007, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
No i refuse 2 accept that Palestine and Israel are equal at fualts. The very fact that israel came barging in claiming most of the palestinian land is proof enough 2 show that they started the mess. Iamagine ur home, your town, your nation being ripped 2 pieces by bulldowzerz and trucktorz.wat wud you do?would u just step aside and say 'hear u go take it'. Iam sory 2 say that blame lies equaly is insulting. Yes i accept that palestinian have alot 2 answer 2, but compared 2 wat the isralis have 2 answerz too....its so much more.
Obviously you think [MAD]victory is more important than peace[/MAD]

And Who is more at fualt is more important than a solution.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-18-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
No i refuse 2 accept that Palestine and Israel are equal at fualts. The very fact that israel came barging in claiming most of the palestinian land is proof enough 2 show that they started the mess. Iamagine ur home, your town, your nation being ripped 2 pieces by bulldowzerz and trucktorz.wat wud you do?would u just step aside and say 'hear u go take it'. Iam sory 2 say that blame lies equaly is insulting. Yes i accept that palestinian have alot 2 answer 2, but compared 2 wat the isralis have 2 answerz too....its so much more.
you can think that garbage all you want but no one forced the palestinians to do anything. The palestinians rioted over the imigration of Jews, when Israel was declared a state, the Palestinians left, at their own free will, they were not forced from the land. They left because they knew of the Arab neighbors upcoming assault. What they didnt know is that Israel would defeat all of the aggressors, what they didnt know is that because of their actions and because of their blatant racism they wouldnt be coming back. Whos fault is that? They have spent 40 years fighting for something that they lost, fair and square. What Muslims must face is that Israel is not their land, it is the Jews land now, and whoever else lives there, they can fight and launch rockets until the end of time and it will solve nothing. They lost the land and they wont get it back. Even though I am tempted to push my opinion on one side or the other, I wont because really it doesnt matter who did more or less, both sides are wrong in what they are doing today, peace will never be attained by either side at the going rate today.
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 08:56 PM
You really didnt see all those displaced Palestinians did you? And what about all those villiages that have been destroyed and farms taken away from farmers. A whole nation of people thrown in to poverty, for the benefit of Israel. Who is the more wealthier? Ok lets not focus on the whole issue becuase i could go on. Lets focus on 1 issue. This could reprsent the whole sitiuation in Palestine.

Why is it that in Hebron the water distrubution is controled by the Israeli's? 85% of the water is allocated to the Israeli's and 15% is allocated to the Palestinians. Look at the population ratio in Hebron you will find that Palestinians outnumber the Israeli's vastly. Why are they denied this right of water? Explain this?

We digress from the topic becuase it has so many issues. Sorry for that.
Reply

wilberhum
05-18-2007, 09:10 PM
There are no easy answers to complex questions. There will be no resolution to water issues as long as there is war.

[S]Peace first. [/S]

That is the only way to resolve anything.
Reply

SATalha
05-18-2007, 09:55 PM
Yeah Wilber i to want peace, it will come to the Holy Land soon, Inshallah.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-18-2007, 10:56 PM
and once again you expose your ignorance, many muslims in the mid-east have critisized both hamas and fatah, one commentator went as far as cursing them both. so plz just because you dont see or hear something, dont make a quick assumption, it seems you believe if something is not on your neocon fox american news then its not happening, so stop showing your ignorance time and time again, its obvious your just always bringing up whatever issue you can to attack and show your hate towards against the muslims.
Reply

Hashim_507
05-19-2007, 05:36 AM
This is the sadest period for Palestinians; they fighting against each other and Isral is bombing.
Palestinian civil war is great opportunity for zionist to wipe out Hamas and its suppoters.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-19-2007, 04:08 PM
BACK ON TOPIC, SOME GOOD NEWS FOR ONCE IT SEEM HAMAS AND FATAH MAY HAVE REACHED A CEASE FIRE, LETS HOPE THIS ONE STAYS IN EFFECT FOR THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli airstrikes targeted Hamas for a fifth straight day Saturday, hitting a rocket squad and two workshops in Gaza, and the defense minister warned militants who attack Israel they should be "very afraid."

ADVERTISEMENT

But Defense Minister Amir Peretz also said now is not the time for a major Israeli ground offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Hospital officials said two Palestinians were killed and four wounded in the latest Israeli strikes.

Days of Israeli air attacks on Hamas targets have coincided with a surge in deadly infighting between Hamas gunmen and rivals from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction. On Saturday, the two groups reached a new cease-fire deal, pledging to pull fighters off the streets and exchange hostages, officials from both sides said.

Previous truce agreements quickly collapsed in recent days, and it was not clear whether this one would hold. Failure to stanch the bloodshed would spell the end of the shaky power-sharing agreement Hamas and Fatah reached two months ago to end a previous round of internal strife.

Clashes erupted outside the home of a senior Fatah official in Gaza City as the latest truce was reached, and security officials said several people were wounded. In the course of the gunbattle, the convoy of a Fatah-allied colonel in the Palestinian intelligence came under fire, but no one was hurt.

Later, however, teams of representatives from the various Palestinian militant factions went around to buildings to make sure gunmen had come down from rooftops. Once rooftops are cleared, an exchange of an unknown number of hostages kidnapped during the past week is to begin. Other faction members removed roadblocks that had been erected during the fighting to identify gunmen from rival factions.

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said he expected the latest truce to stick because of Israel's military strikes.

"No one would accept to fight one another while the Israelis are shelling Gaza," he said.

Israel launched its latest round of airstrikes on Tuesday to counter a stepped-up barrage of Hamas rockets on Israeli border towns. The militant group, which refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, has fired nearly 120 rockets at southern Israel since Tuesday, the military said.

On Saturday, Israel missiles slammed into a rocket squad near the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, the army said.

Earlier in the day, missile strikes demolished two suspected Hamas metal workshops.

Saturday's two deaths brought to 22 the number of Palestinians killed in airstrikes in the past week.

Peretz warned militants involved in rocket operations should be "very afraid," because "it is our intention to act against Hamas."

"We are mainly focusing on sensitive locations tied to Hamas," he told Israel Radio, adding that these locations included rocket workshops.

Asked whether Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas and the head of Hamas' military wing, Ahmed Jaberi, could also be targets, Peretz said he would not rule out any action that "makes it clear to everyone that we don't intend to allow anyone to harm Israeli citizens."

At the same time, he said Israel would not embark on a major offensive in the Gaza Strip because it had other, unspecified tools in its arsenal to use against rocket-launchers.

Israel's Security Cabinet is to meet on Sunday with senior defense officials to discuss the rocket attacks and how to respond, Israel media reported.

Four rockets hit the border area Saturday, causing damage, but no injury. A day earlier, four Israelis were hurt in rocket attacks.

Peretz said Israel is worried by Hamas' efforts to extend the range of its rockets, which include training in Iran.

The Israeli airstrikes have driven Hamas fighters out of their bases, prompting accusations that Israel is helping Fatah.

Peretz insisted Israel is not interfering in the internal fighting. However, he also said that "we certainly would like the moderate forces to emerge with the upper hand," a reference to Fatah.

The weeklong Hamas-Fatah fighting has killed more than 50 Palestinians and wounded dozens.

By mid-afternoon, Hamas and Fatah announced they had reached a new cease-fire deal, negotiated in a meeting at the Egyptian Embassy and endorsed by Abbas and Hamas' supreme leader, Khaled Mashaal.

"The main guarantee is that this agreement was reached by ... Mr. Abbas and Mr. Mashaal," Palestinian Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti said. "We are trying to have an atmosphere of national unity and reconciliation. The most important thing is to stop any form of internal violence between Palestinians."

Abbas and Haniyeh, the most senior Hamas politician in Gaza, have so far failed to calm the situation, indicating they have largely lost control to the gunmen and their political patrons.

Abbas has stayed in his West Bank headquarters during the fighting. Palestinian officials said he was told by security advisers not to travel to Gaza, for fear of possible danger to his life.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070519/...l_palestinians
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 04:13 PM
Interesting. So I suppose the fact that Israel took out some Hamas sites has worked to bring "unity" amongst the factions? Whatever works I guess. I hope the fighting continues to die off, but something tells me there will be another round of it before its over.

Does anybody know when the next Palestinian election is supposed to take place?
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 06:53 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

The following doesn't deal with Gaza, but it does with Israel. And I think it's relevent in pointing out that certain nations don't want peace in the Middle East, and prefer constant chaos in order to have a license to intervene in the region.

The name of the game is continuous destablisation...

U.S. Forbids Israel - Syria TalksU.S. takes Harder Line On Talks

Between Jerusalem, Damascus


By Ze'ev Schiff, Amos Harel and Yoav Stern,
Haaretz Correspondents
Last update - 10:31 24/02/2007
Haaretz


The United States demanded that Israel desist from even exploratory contacts with Syria, of the sort that would test whether Damascus is serious in its declared intentions to hold peace talks with Israel.

In meetings with Israeli officials recently, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was forceful in expressing Washington's view on the matter.

...According to senior Israeli officials, the American position vis-a-vis Syria, as it was expressed by the secretary of state, reflects a hardening of attitudes.

When Israeli officials asked Secretary Rice about the possibility of exploring the seriousness of Syria in its calls for peace talks, her response was unequivocal: Don't even think about it.

Israeli officials, including those in the intelligence community, are divided over the degree to which Syrian President Bashar Assad is serious and sincere in his call for peace talks with Israel.

One view describes Assad's call as a propaganda campaign, and insists that the Syrian leader is not serious. Among those holding this view is Mossad chief Meir Dagan.

In Military Intelligence the view differs. There are those who say that Assad is serious in his call for peace talks, but also say that this does not mean that those talks would be easy for Israel. They even suggest that there is a very good chance that the talks would fail.

It is also known that the Syrians have recently tried to send messages to the Israeli leadership through intermediaries in Europe. These are English nationals and former American diplomats.

The assessment is that the Syrian efforts are mostly the work of associates of Syria's foreign minister, Walid Mualem. The interlocutors approach various Israelis in order to cultivate ties with officials.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has so far adopted the strict American position not to respond to the Syrian feelers.

On the other hand, at the Foreign Ministry and within the defense establishment, there is a greater degree of openness to the offers, and the overall view is that the door should not be closed entirely to the Syrians. Similarly, many believe that the Syrian offers should be tested for their sincerity...

Complete Report:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/829441.html
Reply

Zman
05-19-2007, 07:27 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Diplomats Fear US Wants To Arm Fatah For 'War On Hamas'

Courtesy Of: TimesOnline.co.uk
From: Stephen Farrell,
In Jerusalem
November 18, 2006

AMERICAN proposals to strengthen Mahmoud Abbas’s Palestinian security forces with additional guns and fighters have alarmed other Western nations, who argue that it is tantamount to supporting one faction in a potential civil war.

Fearing the strength of Hamas in Gaza, some US officials have urged that the moderate President Abbas should be given “deterrent capability” so that his Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority forces can confront the Islamist group if talks on a national unity government fail.

The divisions have led to a stand-off over the past month, with US officials saying that the unity government proposal had “no legs”. Other members of the “quartet” of international mediators — made up of the United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia — say that it should be given a chance instead of arming one of the Palestinian factions.

Proposals raised at meetings in London and Cairo include doubling the size of Mr Abbas’s presidential guard and persuading Israel to allow thousands of rifles into Gaza to alleviate its chronic shortage of weapons relative to Hamas.

Fatah officials have asked for more than 1,000 reinforcements from the Palestine Liberation Organisation’s Badr Brigades, in exile in Jordan.

One Western official said that non-American quartet members emerged from one meeting convinced that the US wanted President Abbas to dismiss the Hamas Government, and to use his security forces to “confront Hamas politically and militarily, having confronted it economically”.

“There was effectively a stand-off. As far as we are concerned, what the Americans are proposing to do is back one side in an emerging civil war,” said a western official familiar with the discussions.

Opponents argued that the international community had accepted the participation of Hamas in elections and should therefore look to support a national unity government. Hamas won elections last January but instantly became international pariahs. Sanctions and an aid freeze have left the Palestinian Government broke and unable to pay 160,000 civil servant salaries.

The Spanish Prime Minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, announced a new Middle East peace initiative with France and Italy yesterday. Central to the plan were an immediate ceasefire, a prisoner exchange, talks between the Israeli Prime Minister and the Palestinian President, international ceasefire monitors and a national unity government. Israeli officials dismissed the overture.

Some in Washington are sceptical about a new Palestinian coalition, believing that it will be too close to Hamas and will refuse three international demands — to recognise Israel, renounce violence and abide by previous agreements.

“Everybody wants to support Abbas, but there is a difference of opinion on how best you do it — or how much you are supporting him against Hamas against how much you are supporting him as President, which are not necessarily the same things,” said one international observer.

“A lot of what the Americans were saying was, ‘If there is going to be a fight, we might as well make sure the right person wins’. We would have a difference of opinion there. You really don’t want to be encouraging a civil war.”

The US insists that it has a good relationship with its partners. “We are continuing discussions and working things out. I think it is a little premature to be talking about a civil war as talks about a national unity government are still ongoing,” said a spokeswoman at the US Consulate in Jerusalem yesterday.

Sean McCormack, a State Department spokesman, confirmed that senior US diplomats travelled this week to Jordan to meet neighbouring Arab leaders, some of whom are hostile to Hamas.

Mr McCormack said that Washington was doing what it could to try to make sure that if the Palestinians produced a government that met the standards of the quartet statement, He said that Hamas had had failed in its attempt to govern.

The quartet has survived previous differences, notably the European insistence on alleviating Palestinian suffering with a temporary international mechanism that channelled salaries directly to some health workers when it became apparent that the international embargo on Hamas left Palestinian institutions near to collapse.

Alvaro de Soto, the UN Special Co-ordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, said:

“The need to get a grip on law and order is one of the key reasons for pushing ahead with aan agreed new national unity government. Only this could bring about what has been desperately missing until now, which is the security bodies under the authority of the President and those controlled by the Government, instead of facing each other off on the streets and even shooting at each other, working cohesively not only to fight crime and ensure stability but also to act against those who fire rockets into Israel.”


Source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle640747.ece
Reply

Amadeus85
05-19-2007, 07:53 PM
Mubarak: Hamas will never sign a peace agreement with Israel
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak expressed great concern over the increasing strength of Hamas in talks with senior diplomatic officials on Wednesday, declaring that the organization will never sign a peace agreement with Israel, Haaretz has learned.

He said that the Egyptian government is at a loss regarding the future of the Gaza Strip. However, he also proclaimed that Egypt is making great efforts to end the Hamas government and support Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

"With Hamas no way," he reportedly said.



Mubarak painted a dark picture of the situation with Hamas and said there was no chance for peace with the organization. "Hamas will never sign a peace agreement with Israel if it stays in power," the Egyptian president said.

Mubarak also said that Egypt did not accept Hamas in power, especially in light of its growing ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, which leads the opposition in Egypt. Mubarak sees the Brotherhood, which gained considerable power in Egypt's last parliamentary elections, as a threat to secular power.

Egypt has begun barring senior Hamas leaders from entering Egypt due to concerns over their contacts with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Since Hamas rose to power and in view of the continuing strife between Hamas and Fatah, Egypt has been working through its security delegation in Gaza to reach a cease-fire among the factions. At the same time, Egypt has continuously held talks with Hamas, the Popular Resistance Committees and the Islamic Army over the release of kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad
Shalit.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860469.html
Reply

Zulkiflim
05-19-2007, 08:54 PM
Salaam,

i aggre with the conclusion by most muslim here.

The US gave fatah arms and weapons to fight Hamas.
the unity goverment is a farce.

Hamas was voted DEMOCRATICALY by the poeple but the western world did not like it.
Thus they created espionage and problem for the Palestinians.

Inshallah,i hope the palestinians and the muslim world take a look and see the dirty finger behind this.

Inshallah,Palestine will regain its land and the invaders be dealt with appropriately.

One side fight for the people,the other fight for their own sake.
Reply

Zulkiflim
05-19-2007, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Mubarak: Hamas will never sign a peace agreement with Israel
By Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860469.html
Would the US sign a peace aggrement with al qaeda?
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 09:16 PM
lol...now the U.S. is responsible for Fatah and Hamas shooting each other as well....why not really go for broke and blame the U.S. for the problems in Darfur too?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-19-2007, 09:42 PM
Democracy (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek demos, "people", and kratos, "rule")-Wikipedia

usually through ''elections''

Hamas sweeps to election victory -Thursday, 26 January 2006

Source

but they don't recognise Israel!!!

Big Deal.. China doesn't recognise Taiwan does that mean the UN should put sanctions on the chinese government??

You can't promote democracy only to sabotage it when it's put in motion by the people through elections that's hypocritical. I do not see this as a failure by the ordinary Palistinians for they did what they thought was in their best interest and that is elect a government which previously as a non governmental entity was supporting hospitals,schools etc etc while Fatah on the other hand was seen as a corrupt entity

What you see today is the product of a year long boycot and sanctions projected and enforced by the Western bloc and Israel on a Palistinian government that was democraticly elected by the ordinary people through fair elections. If you do not respect peoples decisions you do not have the right to speak of democracy or freedom or even point a finger at me, yes i may be a muslim and yes i'm silent most of the time but i observe and absorb and i processed todays reality long before these incidents happened cause a puppet government can't stimulate peace and stabilty on the contrary it will only create more instability and chaos for they serve foreign interests instead of those of their own people
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Democracy (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek demos, "people", and kratos, "rule")-Wikipedia

usually through ''elections''

Hamas sweeps to election victory -Thursday, 26 January 2006

Source

but they don't recognise Israel!!!

Big Deal.. China doesn't recognise Taiwan does that mean the UN should put sanctions on the chinese government??

You can't promote democracy only to sabotage it when it's put in motion by the people through elections that's hypocritical. I do not see this as a failure by the ordinary Palistinians for they did what they thought was in their best interest and that is elect a government which previously as a non governmental entity was supporting hospitals,schools etc etc while Fatah on the other hand was seen as a corrupt entity

What you see today is the product of a year long boycot and sanctions projected and enforced by the Western bloc and Israel on a Palistinian government that was democraticly elected by the ordinary people through fair elections. If you do not respect peoples decisions you do not have the right to speak of democracy or freedom or even point a finger at me, yes i may be a muslim and yes i'm silent most of the time but i observe and absorb and i processed todays reality long before these incidents happened cause a puppet government can't stimulate peace and stabilty on the contrary it will only create more instability and chaos for they serve foreign interests instead of those of their own people
How absurd. Why should the Western powers or Israel deal with a "government" that is run by a terrorist organization? How can their be a viable peace process when the government you are trying to broker a peace deal with are also the same people who send out suicide bombers and fire rockets into Israeli towns?

You mention China and Taiwan. You know what the real difference is? China isn't firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Taiwan.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-19-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
How absurd. Why should the Western powers or Israel deal with a "government" that is run by a terrorist organization?
Yet the West and Israel have no problems with supporting a ''entity''(Fatah) which is part of the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces which includes Hamas:D

How can their be a viable peace process when the government you are trying to broker a peace deal with are also the same people who send out suicide bombers and fire rockets into Israeli towns?
How can you broker peace with a Power that flattens your homes with F-16's, uses massive fire power like Tanks to fight insurgents, a Power that doesn't respect your decision as a ''people'' tell me how?

You mention China and Taiwan. You know what the real difference is? China isn't firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Taiwan.
And Taiwan isn't occupying Mainland Chinese cities and destroying Mainland Chinese homes :)
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Yet the West and Israel have no problems with supporting a ''entity''(Fatah) which is part of the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces which includes Hamas:D



How can you broker peace with a Power that flattens your homes with F-16's, uses massive fire power like Tanks to fight insurgents, a Power that doesn't respect your decision as a ''people'' tell me how?



And Taiwan isn't occupying Mainland Chinese cities and destroying Mainland Chinese homes :)
The U.S. and Israel didn't "support" Fatah, but they did view them, more specifically Abbas, as being a viable negotiating partner. Someone with whom they could make agreements with and who would negotiate in good faith. The U.S. and Israel do not feel this way about Hamas, and for good reason.

As for Israel respecting the election of Hamas, what rule states that you have to deal with an elected government even if their charter calls for your destruction? The Palestinians, probably more as a response to Fatah corruption, voted an organization into power who has the destruction of Israel written into their charter...who is there to seriously broker a peace deal with?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
05-19-2007, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The U.S. and Israel didn't "support" Fatah,
Two of the many definitions of the word ''Support''

1.To aid the cause, policy, or interests of...

2. To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.

A. http://www.twf.org/News/Y2006/0122-Palestine.html

B http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1264914.ece

I'm out of time later
Reply

Keltoi
05-19-2007, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Two of the many definitions of the word ''Support''

1.To aid the cause, policy, or interests of...

2. To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.

A. http://www.twf.org/News/Y2006/0122-Palestine.html

B http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1264914.ece

I'm out of time later
The reason I disagree with the use of the word "support" is due to the nature of the relationship. I suppose one could say the U.S. and Israel support Abbas, but supporting Fatah is something altogether different.
Reply

Keltoi
05-20-2007, 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I love that combination. :skeleton:
I guess it is time to go to bed.
lol..glad I wasn't the only one who saw the irony.
Reply

Skywalker
05-20-2007, 08:10 AM
“To hell with the Americans, frankly...”
Niiiice... hahaha!
Reply

guyabano
05-21-2007, 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by Zman


I presented you with facts, and if you don't believe them to be true, then the burden is on you to prove me wrong.

Put your money where your mouth is, and back up your opinion with concrete evidence that'll support your opinion, and not with sarcastic and evasive remaks...
Err,, exuse me, but what facts? YOUR Facts or official facts? I see no source/link in your post
Reply

Keltoi
05-21-2007, 06:32 PM
This thread might as well be closed, it is obvious that staying on topic is too difficult for some people.
Reply

Keltoi
05-21-2007, 06:37 PM
I did see today that rockets attacks are continuing from Gaza, and Israel has stated that no Hamas leader is safe from reprisal. Put together with the situation in Lebanon today, looks like a peace process is further away than ever.
Reply

MTAFFI
05-21-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I did see today that rockets attacks are continuing from Gaza, and Israel has stated that no Hamas leader is safe from reprisal. Put together with the situation in Lebanon today, looks like a peace process is further away than ever.
I honestly dont think there will ever be peace there, what a shame
Reply

Muezzin
05-21-2007, 07:32 PM
In my absence, this thread seems to have gone so far off-topic that it needs to be closed, at least temporarily. I'll see if I can salvage it and consider re-opening it.

EDIT: Okay, I've deleted all the off-topic posts I could find on this thread. If there any remaining, please do use the report function to speeden their deletion. I'll re-open this thread, but if it again goes astray it will have to be locked permanently.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-21-2007, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
you can think that garbage all you want but no one forced the palestinians to do anything. The palestinians rioted over the imigration of Jews, when Israel was declared a state, the Palestinians left, at their own free will, they were not forced from the land. They left because they knew of the Arab neighbors upcoming assault. What they didnt know is that Israel would defeat all of the aggressors, what they didnt know is that because of their actions and because of their blatant racism they wouldnt be coming back. Whos fault is that? They have spent 40 years fighting for something that they lost, fair and square. What Muslims must face is that Israel is not their land, it is the Jews land now, and whoever else lives there, they can fight and launch rockets until the end of time and it will solve nothing. They lost the land and they wont get it back. Even though I am tempted to push my opinion on one side or the other, I wont because really it doesnt matter who did more or less, both sides are wrong in what they are doing today, peace will never be attained by either side at the going rate today.
since you know nothing of palestine i need to educate you, my grandparents were FORCED out, infact villagers even remained to defend the town from the israelis. israelis came in and demolished everything. so dont come here spreading your lies which you have been fed by your zionist pals. they didnt leave at free will.

and we will get the land back dont worry, God is in on our side, palestine will be returned to the Muslims one day.
Reply

Talha777
05-21-2007, 08:55 PM
Insha Allah
Reply

Keltoi
05-21-2007, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
since you know nothing of palestine i need to educate you, my grandparents were FORCED out, infact villagers even remained to defend the town from the israelis. israelis came in and demolished everything. so dont come here spreading your lies which you have been fed by your zionist pals. they didnt leave at free will.

and we will get the land back dont worry, God is in on our side, palestine will be returned to the Muslims one day.
"God is on our side"....+o(

Anyway, the situation in Gaza is about a power grab. Who is going to control the Palestinian government, Fatah or Hamas. Just a general question to everybody interested....

Who do you believe to be the better representative of the Palestinian people? Hamas or Fatah? Why? Which party is more likely to bring peace to the Palestinians?
Reply

rav
05-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
since you know nothing of palestine i need to educate you, my grandparents were FORCED out, infact villagers even remained to defend the town from the israelis. israelis came in and demolished everything. so dont come here spreading your lies which you have been fed by your zionist pals. they didnt leave at free will.

and we will get the land back dont worry, God is in on our side, palestine will be returned to the Muslims one day.
Shalom (Peace),

Of course there were instances in which terrorists on the Israeli side commited atrocities, however, these were groups that were not connected to the actual state of Israel. It is like when a non-Muslim compares Al-Queda to mainstream Islam when there is no relation. Anyone who was killed should be compensated, but such splinter groups were not under the control of any goverment. They acted as they did. Now, may I ask you if you are familiar with a book called "The Arab" written by The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah? If so, can you explain why he wrote:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.

Another question I ask is why John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said:

"Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war" (London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948).

Can you also explain to me the activities of the "Arab Emergence Committee", and why such an ad-hoc body was created?

I would love to hear your own words. Thank you in advance.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-21-2007, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Shalom (Peace),

Of course there were instances in which terrorists on the Israeli side commited atrocities, however, these were groups that were not connected to the actual state of Israel. It is like when a non-Muslim compares Al-Queda to mainstream Islam when there is no relation. Anyone who was killed should be compensated, but such splinter groups were not under the control of any goverment. They acted as they did. Now, may I ask you if you are familiar with a book called "The Arab" written by The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah? If so, can you explain why he wrote:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.

Another question I ask is why John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said:

"Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war" (London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948).

Can you also explain to me the activities of the "Arab Emergence Committee", and why such an ad-hoc body was created?

I would love to hear your own words. Thank you in advance.
hi, now yes many palestinians left their land because of arab political liars in egypt, jordan, and syria who made empty rhetoric, but at the same time not all of them did, many stayed behind such as my familly.

and dont get me wrong, i am no fan of arab goverments, they will get whats comming to them for their corruption and power hungry trips. they only used and use the palestinian issue to save their own positions and stoke up popular support, whenever their in trouble they just scream we will free palestine! to save their own political backsides.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-21-2007, 10:30 PM
also dont forget, during the 'civil' war in lebanon, syrian troops came in and started bombing and fighting the palestinians! so the syrian goverment could really care less about the palestinians, they just care for their own power in the region. no palestinian trusts any neighboring goverment, the only country i would say the palestinians actually trust are the united arab emirates, the UAE have been the most generous to the palestinians, and were the ones who made this peace propasal which you see today, that all arab countries will accept israel if they grant a palestinian state in the pre 67 borders.
Reply

rav
05-21-2007, 10:44 PM
Shalom,

Thank you Sami. I think we all know that know one has really done much for the Palestinian people as a whole at all. Israel has just made things worse by allowing extremist settlers who have powerful and rich backers in United States Evangelic Christian circles to continue to settle, and the Arabs have only used the Palestinians to their own needs as well.

Hopefully both sides will regain their abilities of thought, and we may actually see a development in the peace process which will allow Jews and Arabs to live side by side in a two state solution, because currently, all that happens is Israel and the Arab world are sitting around, while the Palestinians continue to suffer, and the longer extremists like Hamas and Settlers try to destroy the peace process, the longer the Palestinians will sit around in refugee camps, and continue to suffer.
Reply

islamirama
05-22-2007, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
also dont forget, during the 'civil' war in lebanon, syrian troops came in and started bombing and fighting the palestinians! so the syrian goverment could really care less about the palestinians, they just care for their own power in the region. no palestinian trusts any neighboring goverment, the only country i would say the palestinians actually trust are the united arab emirates, the UAE have been the most generous to the palestinians, and were the ones who made this peace propasal which you see today, that all arab countries will accept israel if they grant a palestinian state in the pre 67 borders.
I think saddam had done a lot for the palestinians. He gave them political, financial and military support when possible. No arab leader spoke up but him about their situation. They regard him as a hero.
Reply

Talha777
05-22-2007, 12:15 PM
Saddam didn't do much for Palestine, and what little he did do was in an attempt to gain support and popularity, especially among Palestinians, who prior to the first Gulf war were more inclined to Iran. I think the one Muslim country which has served the Palestinians the most is Islamic Iran. The countries which have backstabbed Palestine are Jordan and Egypt.
Reply

Gangster No.1
05-22-2007, 12:20 PM
I think that we inshallah shall have what is ours the mashij al aqsa, for definatley, allah knows best how
Reply

Skywalker
05-24-2007, 03:24 PM
Speaking of corruption, here's a nice little site that attempts to estimate the level of corruption in many countries. I was interested to see that Egypt is seen as one of the most corrupt countries on the list!

http://www.globalintegrity.org/repor...gypt/index.cfm
Reply

ACC
05-24-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Saddam didn't do much for Palestine, and what little he did do was in an attempt to gain support and popularity, especially among Palestinians, who prior to the first Gulf war were more inclined to Iran. I think the one Muslim country which has served the Palestinians the most is Islamic Iran. The countries which have backstabbed Palestine are Jordan and Egypt.
Wow, I actually agree with this.

Most of the middle eastern countries have been using the palestinians to their own gain. Then again, which country doesnt use someone else to their own benefit?
Reply

Zman
05-25-2007, 03:09 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Israel, US, and Egypt Back Fatah's Fight Against Hamas

The Bush Administration Has Spent Most Of Its $84 Million In Aid To Palestinians To Train An Elite Corps Of Fatah-Loyal Fighters.

By Dan Murphy
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor,
And Joshua Mitnick
Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
From The May 25, 2007 Edition
CSMonitor

Cairo and Tel Aviv - Senior US officials in Washington on Wednesday promised ongoing military support for secular Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas amid his power struggle with Islamist Hamas as part of an $84 million aid package largely aimed at improving the fighting ability of an elite corps of loyalists from his Fatah Party.

Israel, too, is making overtures to Mr. Abbas, reported the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday, allowing light arms to flow to members of his Presidential Guard and saying that it would allow some of the US training of his forces to take place in the West Bank.

That policy puts the US and Israel on a highly unusual course in the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict: Four-square support for Fatah to contain, if not defeat, the growing power of Hamas, which won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) last election.

But whether the effort will succeed is far from certain, and some analysts say there are risks to that course, chief among them the possibility of further fueling the internal Palestinian conflict, leading to deeper despair in the occupied territories and a PA less able to make the compromises on peace with Israel than it is today.

"They want to see Hamas removed from office and see Fatah in control of everything, and [the military assistance program] should be seen as part and parcel of that approach," says Mouin Rabbani, of the International Crisis Group (ICG), reached in Amman, Jordan.

"If you want to reach a stable and durable Palestinian settlement you can't do that by empowering one faction at the expense of the other, since you very much guarantee that the other faction, which is being marginalized, will seek to undermine any peace agreement."

In the West Bank on Wednesday, Israeli troops arrested more than 30 top Hamas officials in a renewed offensive against the group after a spike in rocket fire on southern Israel. Among those apprehended was Palestinian Education Minister Nasser Shaer.

The US insists that all of its aid to the Presidential Guard is "nonlethal," consisting of training, uniforms, and supplies, as well as paying for better infrastructure at Gaza's borders.

Regional analysts and Palestinian officials say the rifles being provided to the guards are being provided by other Arab states with close ties to the US.

And supporters of the program say the US has little choice but to back Abbas as the best hope for Israeli-Palestinian peace.

"As a soldier, I believe there's a point when inaction, a wait-and-see attitude, is no longer an option," said Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton, who is overseeing the program, in testimony to a congressional subcommittee Wednesday.

"The situation has gotten to be quite dire in Gaza, we have a situation of lawlessness and outright chaos," he said. "This chaotic situation is why the [US] is focused on [helping] the legal, legitimate security forces in our effort to reestablish law and order."

Abbas now finds himself engaged in an elaborate, multiparty dance involving Hamas, the US, and the Israelis.

He has been quietly urging Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyah, of Hamas, to stop rocket fire at Israel by the Islamic militants, something that has won him praise from the Americans and Israelis. But gunmen from his Fatah movement have also engaged in a series of battles with Hamas militants in recent weeks, killing at least 50. The two sides have reached a tenuous truce.

Last week, when that fighting veered towards open warfare between the Palestinian factions, Israel allowed about 500 Fatah loyalists to cross back over the Rafah crossing into Gaza from Egypt, where they were receiving US training, an unusual move for Israel, which seeks to strictly limit the movement of fighting-age men through the Gaza border with Egypt.

These men have been widely reported to be members of the Presidential Guard, though a source who works in Israel says they may have been from another Palestinian unit. In his testimony, General Dayton referred to the men as "soldiers" and members of the National Security Service.

Dayton said that by chance, as the freshly trained men crossed into Gaza, that crossing was attacked by Hamas.

"Training does pay off and the Hamas attack was repulsed and the Rafah crossing is under the control of the Palestinian Presidential Guard today," he said.

The return of the 500 troops followed a Hamas attack on another camp for Abbas's Presidential Guard near the Karni crossing with Israel on May 14 that left eight dead. The US is paying for training of the guardsman at the camp, though in that case the Dutch are actually doing the work.

That attack was a "wake-up call" to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Abbas on the need to do more to strengthen forces loyal to the Palestinian president, says Gershon Baskin, codirector of the independent Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information in Jerusalem.

"If Abbas's forces aren't strengthened with weapons, technical training, and money, Gaza is lost. That's the bottom line. Do the Americans and the Israelis want to write off Gaza to the Islamic fundamentalists?"

But the impression shared by many in Gaza that the US is helping Fatah in its power struggle with Hamas, rather than simply strengthening border security, could lead to a spiral of violence, some in Gaza warn.

"Palestinians believe the American support to Abbas is to take out Hamas rather than help secure the border crossings," says Omar Shaban, a political expert in Gaza who once worked as an adviser to Abbas.

The US has to "present it in a way that they are helping the PA and not the president's office," he said. Otherwise, "it puts more oil on the fire. There is a big fear within Hamas that these weapons will be used against them, which makes them take the initiative to get more weapons and to protect themselves … you are promoting the competition between the Fatah generals and Hamas."

While the US says that is not part of its goal, it will be difficult to convince Hamas supporters otherwise.

"All of the support by the US administration of the Presidential Guard has made a real crisis between the Hamas and the Presidential Guard," says Fawzi Barhoum, a Hamas spokesperson in Gaza.

He accused the US of promoting sectarian strife across the Middle East to protect Israel.

"The new Middle East is dependant upon splitting the people into two sides," he says.

Mr. Baskin said that while the Israeli military establishment was at first leery of allowing shipments of arms to forces loyal to Abbas, the prevailing view among Israel's generals is that a direct military confrontation inside Gaza with Hamas is inevitable, so some generals believe it's worth arming Abbas first.

Whether a Palestinian civil war is good or bad for Israel, he said the military is split.

For Egypt, which is backing the US effort along with other secular authoritarian Arab states, anything that may weaken Hamas may be viewed as a positive. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's most popular opposition movement, and currently hundreds of Brotherhood members are in Egyptian jails as political prisoners.

"We can not accept the point of view that the US and Egypt are trying to push this situation in Gaza to civil war, or to cause violence among Palestinian factions. Only pro-Hamas, pro-Muslim brotherhood people believe that," says Emad Gad, a political scientist at the Al Ahram Center for Strategic and International studies, which is partially funded by the Egyptian government.

"The Egyptian regime here is trying to minimize the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood and any success for the Hamas government means more support for the Brotherhood in Egypt, so the Egyptian regime has to seek to minimize their role."

Mr. Gad says Egypt would also like to see the Mecca Agreement of earlier this year, which was brokered by Saudi Arabia and saw Hamas and Fatah enter into a unity government, fall by the wayside, since it legitimizes Hamas, a movement he says that stands in the way of "regional cooperation and an eventual settlement."

The internal Palestinian fighting has helped bolster the position of Fatah members like Mohammed Dahlan, who heads the Palestinian National Security Council. Mr. Dahlan, who has spent five years in prison for alleged terrorism against Israel, has considerable armed support in Gaza and his supporters have sought to destabilize Palestinian governments when he's been sidelined in the past.

Source:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0525/p07s02-wome.html
Reply

MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 12:19 AM
17 killed in Palestinian infighting By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 10 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Rival gunmen exchanged fire at two Gaza hospitals on Monday and Cabinet ministers fled their weekly meeting after the government headquarters was caught in the crossfire of a brutal day of infighting that killed 17 Palestinians.

ADVERTISEMENT

The battles came a day after two militants from the rival Hamas and Fatah factions were dragged onto high-rise rooftops and thrown to their death in a power struggle that appears to be rapidly descending into all-out confrontation.

After sundown Monday, gunmen, apparently from Hamas, laid siege to the house of Jamal Abu al-Jediyan, the senior Fatah official in northern Gaza. They then dragged him outside and killed him, security officials said. Medics said he was hit by 45 bullets.

Al-Jediyan was a top aide to Gaza Fatah strongman Mohammed Dahlan and al-Jediyan's brother was also killed, apparently in the same shootout.

Fatah spokesman Maher Mikdad harshly denounced the killing and threatened revenge.

"What is this, if not a war," he said.

Fatah called on its members to target all Hamas political and military leaders.

The bloodiest clashes of the day took place in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun. Fatah and Hamas gunmen exchanged fire near Beit Hanoun Hospital, killing a Hamas supporter. The battle then moved to the hospital, where three men from a Fatah-allied clan were shot dead.

At Gaza's largest hospital, Shifa, combatants fired mortars, grenades and assault rifles.

Two other Palestinians were killed in battles late Monday night in northern Gaza, security and hospital officials said. Later, Hamas said one of its men, who was kidnapped earlier, was found dead in a Gaza street.

Early Tuesday, three women and a child were killed when Hamas militants attacked the home of a senior Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, security officials said. The gunmen seized Hassan Abu Rabie and killed his 14-year-old son and three other women in the house, hospital officials said.

Also, Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it to the ground.

In the West Bank city of Nablus, Fatah gunmen kidnapped a Hamas activist and torched the car of a local Hamas politician, Hamas officials said.

Monday's deaths brought to more than 80 the number of Palestinians killed since the latest round of infighting erupted in May. The violence overshadowed attempts to revive Israeli-Palestinian contacts.

Appeals for calm by the leaders of the two rival camps, President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, went unheeded. Repeated attempts to secure a cease-fire have failed.

Haniyeh himself was apparently the target of an attack early on Monday when militants, apparently from the rival Fatah, fired at his home. No one was reported hurt in the incident.

Last week, Abbas called off a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert; aides said he did not want to hold talks unless he could be assured of concrete results.

Monday's fighting marred the first day of matriculation exams for thousands of high school students in Gaza. Gunfire could be heard throughout Gaza City during the day.

"This is shameful for our people," Abbas, a moderate who has repeatedly condemned the violence, said during a visit to a West Bank school. "I call on everyone to stop this immediately, not only because of the examinations, but also for our people to live a normal life."

About 90 minutes into the weekly Cabinet meeting, shots hit the Gaza City building where the ministers had gathered.

Mohammed Madhoun, an aide to Haniyeh, said the building was apparently caught in the crossfire between rival Fatah and Hamas forces perched on nearby rooftops.

"The ministers are gone and the shooting is indiscriminate," he said shortly after the incident.

Hamas and Fatah have been locked in a violent power struggle since Hamas defeated Fatah in January 2006 legislative elections, ending four decades of Fatah rule.

Hamas brought Fatah into its government in March in an effort to quell the internal strife, but the fighting reignited in mid-May over an unresolved dispute over who controls the powerful security forces.

The fighting took a grisly turn on Sunday, when Hamas militants kidnapped a member of Abbas' elite presidential guard, took him to the roof of a 15-story apartment building and threw him to his death.

That set off skirmishes throughout the city, including gun battles and shelling. Fatah militants surrounded the house of a Hamas mosque preacher, Mohammed al-Rifati, and killed him.

"They came up the stairs and broke open the door," said the preacher's 14-year-old son, Hamzeh. "He opened the door. He said, 'What do you want?' ... They held him and they shot him in the leg. He began screaming and blood was on the floor ... They put him on a mattress and took him."

And just before midnight, a Hamas activist was thrown off the 12th floor of a building and killed, security officials said, in an apparent retaliation for the earlier killing of the Fatah man.

The deadly infighting has overlapped with new clashes between Israel and Palestinian militants who have been firing rockets at southern Israeli communities bordering Gaza.

Early Monday, Palestinian militants fired five rockets into southern Israel, the army said. There were no injuries, but high school students in the battered border town of Sderot were moved to towns out of rocket range to take their final exams.

I noticed the Palestinians are back at it with each other again, lets hope they come to some sort of peace deal again soon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/...l_palestinians
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-12-2007, 02:11 AM
well fatah are traitors anyway, they sold the ppl out, so although a major civil fight isnt good, it is for the best, take the traitors fatah out of gaza. fatah are your typical corrupt tyranical backstabbing arab regime you see all over the mid-east. all they want is power, and money.
Reply

Skywalker
06-12-2007, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Sami
well fatah are traitors anyway, they sold the ppl out, so although a major civil fight isnt good, it is for the best, take the traitors fatah out of gaza. fatah are your typical corrupt tyranical backstabbing arab regime you see all over the mid-east. all they want is power, and money.
Could you provide some facts or evidence to support your opinion(s)? To label someone a traitor is a huge thing, and should not be taken lightly, nor should the word 'traitor' be used lightly.

I noticed Hamas aren't very pro-progess either. When questioned about some of their actions on Hard Talk on BBC, one of the Hamas representatives couldn't answer a single question directly.

I think Palestinians need to understand that they currently don't have the power to topple Israel. Once they understand that, things can change for the better. In my opinion anyways.
Reply

Gangster No.1
06-12-2007, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Could you provide some facts or evidence to support your opinion(s)? To label someone a traitor is a huge thing, and should not be taken lightly, nor should the word 'traitor' be used lightly.

I noticed Hamas aren't very pro-progess either. When questioned about some of their actions on Hard Talk on BBC, one of the Hamas representatives couldn't answer a single question directly.

I think Palestinians need to understand that they currently don't have the power to topple Israel. Once they understand that, things can change for the better. In my opinion anyways.
:sl:

The view we need 2 look at from where we are sitting is;

remember our mission, to justify our land in palestain/israel, and do what it needs to be done to get OUR land back!

Therefore:

the muslims there are still and will always fight untill the final blood of a muslim remains, to honour islam, and themselves, jihad is ALLOWED, and will always be used whenever, because that is our land, and we are permissable to fight for our own land!

my point is from your quote, I think Palestinians need to understand that they currently don't have the power to topple Israel. Once they understand that, things can change for the better. In my opinion anyways.[/QUOTE]


However i totally disagree.

Allah tells us to defend our lands, amongest our wealth, honour, familly.

How can ou expect us to stand down?

ALLAH HU AKBAR!
ALLAH WILL HELP US INSHLAH.
Reply

MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 01:39 PM
Hamas captures Fatah positions By DIAA HADID, Associated Press Writer
53 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas fighters on Tuesday captured several positions from the rival Fatah movement and threatened to step up the offensive after a rocket-propelled grenade hit the home of the Hamas prime minister. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas accused his Hamas rivals of staging a coup.

There were no injuries in the early-morning attack on Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh's home — the second in two days. But the attack underscored the increasingly ruthless nature of the fighting, which has killed 18 people in recent days. Exasperated Egyptian mediators said the bitter rivals turned down an appeal to meet for truce talks.

Heavy gun battles erupted in several locations, in what security officials described as a Hamas assault on positions of the Fatah-allied security forces.

Hamas-affiliated radio stations said the group took control of security installations in northern and central Gaza, as well as the southern town of Khan Younis.

Hamas also demanded that Fatah-allied security forces abandon their positions, threatening to attack those who remained in their posts.

"The warning which we have given you to surrender has ended, and we will attack this position of Zionist collaborators," Hamas warned over a mosque loudspeaker in Gaza City, shortly before taking up positions near the headquarters of the pro-Fatah Preventive Security Service. Later, there were heavy exchanges of fire.

In the West Bank, where Fatah forces are much stronger, Fatah gunmen threatened to retaliate by killing Hamas leaders. The deputy transportation minister of Hamas was seized by Fatah gunmen, Hamas said. There was no word on his condition.

Col. Nasser Khaldi, a Fatah commander in southern Gaza, confirmed his men were on the defensive. Khaldi said Abbas, the leader of Fatah, must give orders now to fight back.

"There is a weakness of our leaders," he said. "Hamas is just taking over our positions. There are no orders."

In the southern town of Khan Younis, streets were deserted. A member of the Fatah-allied forces there said that Hamas took several smaller Fatah positions, but that the main compound holding three branches was still under Fatah control. The officer said Hamas has taken over a building next to the compound. "Our orders are to defend ourselves if they come, but not to attack," he said.

Abbas was meeting with Fatah leaders at his headquarters in the West Bank to discuss the next steps. He accused Hamas of trying to seize control of Gaza by force and appealed for a new cease-fire. Earlier, four mortar shells hit his Gaza City compound, but caused no injuries.

"Some Hamas political and military leaders are planning to stage a coup, ... thinking they will be able to control Gaza by force," Abbas' office said in a statement.

Hamas and Fatah have been locked in a violent power struggle since Hamas defeated Fatah in January 2006 legislative elections, ending four decades of Fatah rule.

The sides agreed to share power in an uneasy coalition three months ago, but put off key disputes, including wrangling over control of the security forces. Most of the forces are dominated by Fatah loyalists, while Hamas has formed its own militia over the past year in addition to the thousands of gunmen at its command.

In all, 18 Palestinians have been killed in two days in the latest spike of violence, which has grown increasingly brutal. Some people were shot at close range in street executions, others in shootouts that turned hospitals into battle grounds, while others were thrown from rooftops. Residents huddled indoors, and university exams were canceled.

Each group used Web sites and text messages to call for the execution of the other side's military and political leaders. Both sides described the fighting as all-out civil war. In all, more than 80 people have been killed since mid-May, most of them militants.

The head of the Egyptian mediation team, Lt. Col. Burhan Hamad, said neither side responded to his call to hold truce talks Tuesday.

"It seems they don't want to come. We must make them ashamed of themselves. They have killed all hope. They have killed the future," said Hamad, who brokered several previous short-lived cease-fires.

Hamad said both sides were about equal in firepower. "Neither can have a decisive victory," he said. "To be decisive, they need weapons that neither side has."

He said he would call civilians out into the streets to protest if the two rivals did not agree to stand down.

Islam Shahwan, a spokesman for the Hamas militia, brushed aside the latest truce efforts. "It's all talk. It's not serious," he said.

On Tuesday morning, a gun battle erupted at the European Hospital in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis. Hamas gunmen controlling the rooftop traded fire with Fatah-allied security forces posted nearby. Fifteen children attending a kindergarten in the line of fire were rushed into the main building of the hospital, funded largely by European donations.

Earlier in the day, a rocket-propelled grenade hit Haniyeh's home in the Shati refugee camp on the outskirts of Gaza City. His son, Abdel Salam, said a grenade hit the side of the house, damaging it, while the family was inside.

A Hamas Web site described the incident as an assassination attempt by Fatah. "They crossed all the red lines," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

Elsewhere, a member of the Hamas military wing was kidnapped and executed by Fatah gunmen. The dead man was identified as a cousin of Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a Hamas leader Israel assassinated in 2004.

Separately, Hamas gunmen attacked the home of a senior Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, killing his 14-year-old son and three women in the house, security officials said. Other Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it to the ground.

The fighting also spilled into the West Bank, with Palestinian security forces seizing two employees of the Hamas-linked Al Aqsa TV station in the city of Ramallah and confiscating equipment. Fatah gunmen said Hamas leaders in the West Bank, a Fatah stronghold, would be targeted if Hamas doesn't halt its attacks in Gaza.

The latest fighting disrupted final exams for university and high school students. The three Gaza universities called off final exams set for Tuesday. High schools were trying to move test centers to areas out of the range of fire, said Mohammed Abu Shkeir, the deputy minister of education

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070612/...l_palestinians

This seems to be getting pretty bad again, I hope for peace for the Palestinians
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-12-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Could you provide some facts or evidence to support your opinion(s)? To label someone a traitor is a huge thing, and should not be taken lightly, nor should the word 'traitor' be used lightly.

I noticed Hamas aren't very pro-progess either. When questioned about some of their actions on Hard Talk on BBC, one of the Hamas representatives couldn't answer a single question directly.

I think Palestinians need to understand that they currently don't have the power to topple Israel. Once they understand that, things can change for the better. In my opinion anyways.
fatah is recieving support from the USA and israel, if thats not being traitors then what is? if we replaced fatah with maronite christians in lebanon there would be no doubt or debate about being a traitor, and this is exactly what the maronites in lebanon did! hence they are no different. number 2, fatah started this problem because of their own stupid greediness of wanting power, hamas didnt start the fight, fatah did, they came threatening to make new elections out of no where acting as if they are a big bully when infact they arent, hamas are much more motivated then fatah and have the wide support. u can bet that israel is secretly helping fatah with inteligance info etc.

and whats pro-progress? recognizing israels right to exist? hamas arent a secular group, they are an Islamic group, so hence bring me one proof from shariah that says when a non muslim comes and steals your land, kills you, and kicks you out that you must make peace with them and sit down and recognize their right to exist. Islam says otherwise, it says you can make jihad to defend your land and bring it back, not only that, israel hasnt only stolen land, they occupy our third holiest site hence it becomes obligatory for those muslims to fight until its liberated, hence what is pro-progress? im assuming pro-progress is selling yourself out to recognize the right of a thief and murderor?!!!!!!!!! your **** right hamas isnt pro-progress, because in todays world pro-progress for muslims means leaving Islam and bowing to the western powers, thats what you call pro-progress today, but wanting to stick to Islam and sharia is called backwardness!

as for the palestinians not being able to defeat israel, says who? such comments are made by people who have weak emaan (faith). are you saying israel is more powerful than Allah? if muslims fight israel with true sincerity for Allah not even israel and usa with all its nukes can defeat you even if you were carrying sticks! and the Quran even affirms this, that if you fight sincerly for Allah, even against a stronger and mightier opponent who outnumbers you you will still win! and this is the problem with us muslims today, and why were not winning, its because our faith is weak, we think that israel and usa are soooooooo powerful that we get scared of them (not me that is) when you should only fear Allah and have faith in him and his power which he affirms for himself.

why do you think the early muslims who were outnumbered by 10-1 always managed to defeat the large persian armies combined with the byzantines, and etc etc, it was because they had true faith, they werent blind and they didnt give in to dillusion that an enemy is so strong you cant fight him because he will simply crush us, nop they had true and strong faith in Allah hence they always won. but today we dont have this, neither did we in the 60's or 70's, we always lost to israel before why? because we fought under the banner of nationalism, which is fighting for someone other than Allah! no wonder we lost in 6 days and got humiliated, Allah will do that to us if we turn our back on him.

thirdly, when the prophet began fighting back the pagans, he was in no shape to fight them, he was outnumbered, didnt have good equipment compared to theirs, and not only that the quraysh had many many horses compared to the muslims who only had 2! hence if we want to use the logic that we cant fight someone because they are much stronger and better equiped then us then this would mean the prophet should have never fought then! but he did fight them, because Allah was on the side of the muslims, and the muslims had faith and completly believed that Allah was supporting them hence they did not fear the pagans might, and lo and behold the pagans were easily defeated in the first battle. the muslims lost in the second battle, why? because they disobeyed god and we lost! you see? Allah has set examples for us from 1400 years ago! that if you have faith and strong faith in Allah, knowing he will help you, then you shall win i.e. battle of badr, however so if you disobey Allah, lose obediance, etc then you shall lose i.e. battle of uhud.

so palestinians should never give in, they should perhaps make a 20 year truce after a palestinian state is made, so they can regroup, train, get stronger, just like the muslims did after the treaty of hudaybiyah, the muslims were 700 in number when the treaty was made, in 2 years they were 10000 and easily took back makkah without shedding of blood. but however so the muslims regrouped and made a treaty ONLY AFTER they had a state of their own in Madinah, muslims in palestine dont even have a state, hence any question of a truce or peace treaty when they have no stable state of their own is futile and useless. this is what you call pro-progress, pro-progress isnt making peace with israel when they wont hand you a palestinian state, what kind of nonsense is that? thats just pro-israel to give them more time to build more settlements in the west bank!

:)
Reply

Keltoi
06-12-2007, 04:08 PM
lol...so Fatah are traitors for taking financial assistance from the U.S.? Who is the bigger traitor, those who bring in money to help the Palestinian people, or those who fire rockets and run away when the Israeli military comes to town? Hamas has done nothing but bring destruction and fear to their own people.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-12-2007, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
lol...so Fatah are traitors for taking financial assistance from the U.S.? Who is the bigger traitor, those who bring in money to help the Palestinian people, or those who fire rockets and run away when the Israeli military comes to town? Hamas has done nothing but bring destruction and fear to their own people.
lol i love it when ppl play stupid, and lie so blatantly like you are doing now.

fatah does not only recieve financial backing from the US, fatah are reciving money and arms from the us, and not only that, the finance being given by the us is primarily for arms not for the good of the ppl! it doesnt even end there, there is some minimal training done as well, so therefore indeed they are traitors, getting guns from the americans, and money from the americans to buy guns, so they can turn it on their own ppl, and then when hamas responds to defend itself hamas all of a sudden becomes the bad guy and all chaos is attributed to them when infact all chaos and violence is firmly rooted by the US and Israelis who are using fatah as a pawn. it is abbas and his corrupt regime with the backing of the US who threatened to make new elections which started this whole problem. as i said, fatah are your typical tyranical arab regime, the us wants a palestinian state run by another puppet arab goverment like they have in egypt and many other arab states, with hamas they wont get that, hence they created this civil conflict to remove hamas so they can install a puppet regime, too bad for them hamas wont be defeated rather fatah will. :)
Reply

Keltoi
06-12-2007, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
lol i love it when ppl play stupid, and lie so blatantly like you are doing now.

fatah does not only recieve financial backing from the US, fatah are reciving money and arms from the us, and not only that, the finance being given by the us is primarily for arms not for the good of the ppl! it doesnt even end there, there is some minimal training done as well, so therefore indeed they are traitors, getting guns from the americans, and money from the americans to buy guns, so they can turn it on their own ppl, and then when hamas responds to defend itself hamas all of a sudden becomes the bad guy and all chaos is attributed to them when infact all chaos and violence is firmly rooted by the US and Israelis who are using fatah as a pawn. it is abbas and his corrupt regime with the backing of the US who threatened to make new elections which started this whole problem. as i said, fatah are your typical tyranical arab regime, the us wants a palestinian state run by another puppet arab goverment like they have in egypt and many other arab states, with hamas they wont get that, hence they created this civil conflict to remove hamas so they can install a puppet regime, too bad for them hamas wont be defeated rather fatah will. :)
Care to supply some kind of source for any of this? Didn't think so. For those who actually want a factual breakdown of U.S assistance to the Palestinians, this article gives a good overview of the humanitiarian aid that is going to the Palestinians at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer. Not that I have a problem with it.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...ans-US-Aid.php
Reply

Skywalker
06-12-2007, 09:48 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Gangster
remember our mission, to justify our land in palestain/israel, and do what it needs to be done to get OUR land back!

Therefore:

the muslims there are still and will always fight untill the final blood of a muslim remains, to honour islam, and themselves, jihad is ALLOWED, and will always be used whenever, because that is our land, and we are permissable to fight for our own land!
Here's the thing though, united jihad is allowed, but it's not supposed to be carried out brainlessly. You and I and the Palestinians know full well that it's not Israel that they're fighting. They're fighting them along with the world's superpowers at their side while every single Arab nation has turned their backs on them. This is not 10 to 1 odds anymore. The Palestinians have no weapons (in comparison to Israel) and more importantly currently they have no unity. Practically speaking, they can't win. Nobody is paying attention to their cries for help anymore, now they're being accused of victimizing themselves thus slowing progress, and eventually they will appear as the bad guys in this whole fiasco.

Now I'm not saying give up, far from it actually. What I'm saying is be SMART. Allah separated us from animals by giving us intelligence. Launching rockets at Israeli towns and killing one or two civilans in the process does not demostrate our ability to use our brains.

Originally Posted by Gangster
However i totally disagree.

Allah tells us to defend our lands, amongest our wealth, honour, familly.

How can ou expect us to stand down?
Well to each his own opinion, but brute force is NOT the answer in this conflict unless they have SIGNIFICANT firepower to back that up. And I don't mean a few thousand kassam rockets.

Originally Posted by Sami
fatah is recieving support from the USA and israel, if thats not being traitors then what is? if we replaced fatah with maronite christians in lebanon there would be no doubt or debate about being a traitor, and this is exactly what the maronites in lebanon did! hence they are no different. number 2, fatah started this problem because of their own stupid greediness of wanting power, hamas didnt start the fight, fatah did, they came threatening to make new elections out of no where acting as if they are a big bully when infact they arent, hamas are much more motivated then fatah and have the wide support. u can bet that israel is secretly helping fatah with inteligance info etc.
Do you have proof of these claims? Like I said, labelling someone a traitor needs a lot of proof, and suspicion, no matter how strong, does count for squat in this world if you don't have proof. Accusing someone of something without proof is zhulm.

Originally Posted by Sami
and whats pro-progress? recognizing israels right to exist?
Heck no. But let's say they did, wouldn't that theoretically provide for a period of relative stability, in which the Palestinians could properly asess and re-evaluate the situation, which could give them insight into how to deal with the situation better? I mean what room is there to think when you have constant violence and enormous pressure on the government? How can anybody make WISE decisions in that kind of environment?

Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?

Originally Posted by Sami
Islam says otherwise, it says you can make jihad to defend your land and bring it back, not only that, israel hasnt only stolen land, they occupy our third holiest site hence it becomes obligatory for those muslims to fight until its liberated, hence what is pro-progress?
So you think launching rockets once a week is going to force Israel to...collapse? If not, then how do you think they could achieve victory over Israel and flush their government out? I'd really like to hear your suggestions.

Originally Posted by Sami
your **** right hamas isnt pro-progress, because in todays world pro-progress for muslims means leaving Islam and bowing to the western powers, thats what you call pro-progress today, but wanting to stick to Islam and sharia is called backwardness!
Pro-progress for some misguided people might mean leaving Islam behind, but to the educated ones, they know that the best way forward culturally is to go back. Nevetheless, we're not talking about etiquette and morals here, we're talking about the salvation and the continuation of existance of the Palestinian people. Pro-progress in this case is their salvation, as well as a SMART way of getting the best out of the situation with Israel. Believe me when I tell you, launching rockets into their settlements is not going to give you that.

Originally Posted by Sami
as for the palestinians not being able to defeat israel, says who? such comments are made by people who have weak emaan (faith). are you saying israel is more powerful than Allah?
Firstly, such comments are made by people who are sick and don't want to take their medicine because of their faith that Allah will cure them. Here's a newsflash, why should Allah help you if you don't want to help yourself? Why would He help you if you're committing suicide and treating the life that He gave you with no respect? Allah has the power to do ANYTHING, we know that, but why should He get involved in the conflicts that we ourselves have the capacity to get out of? Don't we have His Book and His Prophet (pbuh) as guidance? Don't we have the intellect that He gave us? Then why aren't we doing anything about our situation and constantly begging Him to help us? He DID help us! He gave us those gifts, and many others so long ago...it's our own fault that we don't know how to use them.

Secondly, please refrain from suggesting that your iman is stronger than that of other memebers of this forum or in this world actually, because you don't know that, only Allah does, and to use this in an argument, especially against a brother Muslim is not that cool.

Originally Posted by Sami
and this is the problem with us muslims today, and why were not winning, its because our faith is weak, we think that israel and usa are soooooooo powerful that we get scared of them (not me that is) when you should only fear Allah and have faith in him and his power which he affirms for himself.
That's all true our faith is week and maybe you're the most faithful one among us, Allahu 3alam, but isn't using your brain part of your faith? I mean, the people that defended themselves from attacks during the times of the Prophet (pbuh), they HAD to win if Islam was going to spread. It's Allah's divine destiny. That doesn't mean that we should fight recklessly and irresponsibly now.

Anyways, I'll write more on the subject soon insha-Allah cuz I gotta run now.

:w:
Reply

MTAFFI
06-12-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
:sl:

Here's the thing though, united jihad is allowed, but it's not supposed to be carried out brainlessly. You and I and the Palestinians know full well that it's not Israel that they're fighting. They're fighting them along with the world's superpowers at their side while every single Arab nation has turned their backs on them. This is not 10 to 1 odds anymore. The Palestinians have no weapons (in comparison to Israel) and more importantly currently they have no unity. Practically speaking, they can't win. Nobody is paying attention to their cries for help anymore, now they're being accused of victimizing themselves thus slowing progress, and eventually they will appear as the bad guys in this whole fiasco.

Now I'm not saying give up, far from it actually. What I'm saying is be SMART. Allah separated us from animals by giving us intelligence. Launching rockets at Israeli towns and killing one or two civilans in the process does not demostrate our ability to use our brains.


Well to each his own opinion, but brute force is NOT the answer in this conflict unless they have SIGNIFICANT firepower to back that up. And I don't mean a few thousand kassam rockets.


Do you have proof of these claims? Like I said, labelling someone a traitor needs a lot of proof, and suspicion, no matter how strong, does count for squat in this world if you don't have proof. Accusing someone of something without proof is zhulm.


Heck no. But let's say they did, wouldn't that theoretically provide for a period of relative stability, in which the Palestinians could properly asess and re-evaluate the situation, which could give them insight into how to deal with the situation better? I mean what room is there to think when you have constant violence and enormous pressure on the government? How can anybody make WISE decisions in that kind of environment?

Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?


So you think launching rockets once a week is going to force Israel to...collapse? If not, then how do you think they could achieve victory over Israel and flush their government out? I'd really like to hear your suggestions.


Pro-progress for some misguided people might mean leaving Islam behind, but to the educated ones, they know that the best way forward culturally is to go back. Nevetheless, we're not talking about etiquette and morals here, we're talking about the salvation and the continuation of existance of the Palestinian people. Pro-progress in this case is their salvation, as well as a SMART way of getting the best out of the situation with Israel. Believe me when I tell you, launching rockets into their settlements is not going to give you that.


Firstly, such comments are made by people who are sick and don't want to take their medicine because of their faith that Allah will cure them. Here's a newsflash, why should Allah help you if you don't want to help yourself? Why would He help you if you're committing suicide and treating the life that He gave you with no respect? Allah has the power to do ANYTHING, we know that, but why should He get involved in the conflicts that we ourselves have the capacity to get out of? Don't we have His Book and His Prophet (pbuh) as guidance? Don't we have the intellect that He gave us? Then why aren't we doing anything about our situation and constantly begging Him to help us? He DID help us! He gave us those gifts, and many others so long ago...it's our own fault that we don't know how to use them.

Secondly, please refrain from suggesting that your iman is stronger than that of other memebers of this forum or in this world actually, because you don't know that, only Allah does, and to use this in an argument, especially against a brother Muslim is not that cool.


That's all true our faith is week and maybe you're the most faithful one among us, Allahu 3alam, but isn't using your brain part of your faith? I mean, the people that defended themselves from attacks during the times of the Prophet (pbuh), they HAD to win if Islam was going to spread. It's Allah's divine destiny. That doesn't mean that we should fight recklessly and irresponsibly now.

Anyways, I'll write more on the subject soon insha-Allah cuz I gotta run now.

:w:
One of the best posts I have seen on this thread
Reply

Skywalker
06-13-2007, 07:28 AM
:sl:

To pick up where I left off...
Originally Posted by Sami
because we fought under the banner of nationalism, which is fighting for someone other than Allah! no wonder we lost in 6 days and got humiliated, Allah will do that to us if we turn our back on him.
I agree that nationalism is a scourge and personally can't stand it because I've seen so much suffering around me because of it. It's true that the Palestinians need to re-evaluate things, who and what they're fighting for for example, but now after almost 50 years of conflict, don't you think it's time that they re-evaluated HOW they're fighting as well? Either way, all Muslims around the world need to make Allah their priority, not just the Palestinians, but you're not gonna get this by constantly fighting against impossible odds, but by educating the youth about Allah as well as the world around them. The youth are the future because the world is not what it was 1400 years ago, and them along with Allah's inspiration and help, would be able to end this thing, not the current leaders who seem to just live in the past instead of learning from it in making a better tomorrow. Allah knows best anyway, I'm just stating my humble opinion. If you see a flaw in what I'm saying feel free to point it out.

Originally Posted by Sami
Allah has set examples for us from 1400 years ago! that if you have faith and strong faith in Allah, knowing he will help you, then you shall win i.e. battle of badr, however so if you disobey Allah, lose obediance, etc then you shall lose i.e. battle of uhud.
I agree with that with the addition that you also help yourself instead of waiting for help. We don't know what Allah's destiny for us or the Palestinians is. It might be that Palestine takes over Israel and creates the first pure Sharia country in the world, or that Palestine is totally eradicated and ceases to exist. Do you know God's destiny for us? Since we don't, then we have to go with what we have...our brains and our faith. If all we're doing by attacking Israel is making things worse, logic suggests that we find a different way of dealing with things.

Originally Posted by Sami
so palestinians should never give in, they should perhaps make a 20 year truce after a palestinian state is made, so they can regroup, train, get stronger, just like the muslims did after the treaty of hudaybiyah, the muslims were 700 in number when the treaty was made, in 2 years they were 10000 and easily took back makkah without shedding of blood. but however so the muslims regrouped and made a treaty ONLY AFTER they had a state of their own in Madinah, muslims in palestine dont even have a state, hence any question of a truce or peace treaty when they have no stable state of their own is futile and useless. this is what you call pro-progress, pro-progress isnt making peace with israel when they wont hand you a palestinian state, what kind of nonsense is that? thats just pro-israel to give them more time to build more settlements in the west bank!
That's not much different than what I said, and I don't know where you get the idea that I think that pro-progress is necessarily pro-Israel. I'm against Israel and what it stands for, but I'm also pro-peace and pro-logic. I think the Palestinians have already forgotten what it's like to live a life of peace and security. Do you think that if they took over Israel somehow that they would create a peaceful and secure country for themselves? Why not calm things down for a while, improve their economy, build themselves up as a nation, make allies with the countries around them while also creating peace in the region...and then if Allah wills it, they might one day be strong enough to take back what was taken from them, while actually being in the state of mind to create a peaceful society? Help themselves first, boost their faith in Allah, educate their people, and victory could come when they least expect it.

If you've watched Star Wars Episode 1, you'd notice that it's almost a metaphor for what's happening with Israel and Palestine...and in the movie Palestine wins. But did they do it with brute force?? No. They made allies, they made a 'well-conceived plan', and at the end they won and got their planet back. In the movie they had Anakin Skywalker fly into the droid control ship and blow it up almost miraculously, which saved the day, and which to me is a metaphor for God's intervention. But does that mean that they DEPENDED on the miracle of Anakin flying in and destroying it? No, they did their part in creating a plan and executing it, and the divine intevention came on its own...with Anakin pushing random buttons inside the ship only to destroy the baddies ;D Think about it...

Wow, either George Lucas is a genius or that's one heck of a coincidence :)

:w:
Reply

Zman
06-13-2007, 09:39 PM
:sl:/Peace To All


Analysis: Hamas Takeover In Gaza Would Short-Circuit US Plans

By Adam Entous
Wed 13 Jun 2007 19:14:55 BST
Reuters

JERUSALEM, June 13 (Reuters) - A Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip would deal a blow to a U.S. peace push founded on the premise Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas would be capable of reining in militants and Israel would embrace him as a partner.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and other senior officials said a Hamas victory in factional fighting against Abbas's secular Fatah movement would cast doubt on Abbas's ability to deliver on any agreements over a Palestinian state.

While warning of the risk of allowing Hamas to establish its own Iranian-backed mini-state on Israel's southern border, some Israeli officials said the deteriorating situation could be used by the Jewish state as leverage to get major European and Arab powers to intervene with a large international force in Gaza.

By backing calls for an international deployment that he knows few countries are clamouring to join, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may merely be laying the ground work for Israel to act unilaterally against Hamas militants in an enclave from which Israel withdrew occupying troops in 2005, the officials said.


A Hamas victory would also seem to dash Bush administration hopes that Abbas and his forces would be able to exercise security control over Gaza, a key Israeli condition for resuming serious peace negotiations.

Some Israeli and Western officials saw the Hamas-led assault as a pre-emptive strike against U.S. plans to bolster Abbas's forces for a planned crackdown on cross-border rocket attacks into Israel and smuggling of weaponry to militant groups.
U.S. President George W. Bush, who hopes for progress in his last year and half in office, will meet Olmert in Washington next week.

"If Hamas takes control of Gaza, this will be significant, not only for what happens in Gaza, but for the ability to reach agreements with (Abbas) and whether it would be possible to implement them in Gaza," Livni said in Jerusalem on Wednesday.

Considered a "terrorist" organisation by the United States, the European Union and Israel, Hamas's founding charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state but its leaders have offered a long-term truce with Israel in return for a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

SEPARATION:

The territories are only about 45 km (30 miles) apart, with Israel in between, but the fighting has highlighted just how different they are. "There is almost a complete separation between Gaza and the West Bank," Livni said.

The Islamist militants of Hamas increasingly hold sway in Gaza, while the larger West Bank is dominated by Fatah, whose leaders favour a negotiated two-state solution to the conflict.


Critics say a Western economic embargo imposed on the Palestinian Authority after Hamas came to power in March 2006, on top of the U.S. military assistance for Abbas, exacerbated tensions and fuelled Islamist militancy.

"If you have two brothers put into a cage and deprive them of basic essential needs for life, they will fight,"
Palestinian Foreign Minister Ziad Abu Amr said on Wednesday.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said in Washington: "Palestinians are going to have to sort out their politics and figure out which pathway they want to pursue -- the pathway toward two states living peaceably side by side or whether this sort of chaos is going to become a problem."

Israeli leaders have mixed feelings about the Bush administration's push to strengthen Abbas, a leader they long dismissed as powerless. Livni once called him "irrelevant".

Establishing Abbas's security control over Gaza was a linchpin of U.S. efforts to revive the peace process. Washington has long held that negotiations will go nowhere if Israel cannot be assured that Abbas can curb cross-border militant attacks.

Washington had just launched a nearly $60 million programme to bolster Abbas's Presidential Guard
with advanced training and non-lethal equipment. At Washington's urging, Israel has allowed Arab states to send arms and ammunition.

But Israel has not been as forthcoming with timely assistance as some of Abbas's aides and Western officials had hoped, and Olmert has resisted taking other confidence-building steps, angering Washington.

Some Israeli officials say Fatah is hopelessly outgunned in Gaza and that any weapons that might be sent to the group now would fall into the hands of Hamas and be used against Israelis.

"We want to strengthen the moderates," Livni said. "But I think the last thing we want to do is to express ourselves in a way that makes it seems we are working together."

(Additional reporting by Ari Rabinovitch and Avida Landau)

© Reuters 2007. All Rights Reserved.

Source:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/Cris...oryId=L1363999
Reply

KAding
06-13-2007, 10:27 PM
A take-over by Hamas will only mean another halt in emergency and development aid. No country on this planet has an obligation to provide aid to the Palestinians after all.

Rather disturbingly more Palestinians have died in these few days of clashes between Hamas and Fatah gunmen than have been killed by Israelis in the last 3 months combined (and that includes the West Bank).
Reply

Zman
06-13-2007, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
A take-over by Hamas will only mean another halt in emergency and development aid.

I believe that Norway & Japan have recently decided to break ranks, and resume direct aid to the Palestinian government.

You gotta unnderstand, that this anti-Hamas stance is most strong and biased in the West. Many Thrid World nations have no problem dealing with them.

Did you know that Russia doesn't even list them as a terrorist organization?
Reply

KAding
06-13-2007, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
:sl:
Hypothetically speaking, what would be wrong with temporarily recognizing Israel's right to exist, and then coming back in a few decades and taking your land back the way they took it from you?
You mean signing a peace and then backstabbing them when they aren't expecting it (like on Yum Kippur or something ;))? Isn't that a bit dishonorable though? I vaguely remember reading in the Qu'ran that it is not allowed to attack people with which you have a treaty?

Stuff like:
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them except those of the idolaters with which you have made an agreement." (IX:4-5)

"If they break their oaths after their agreement and [openly] revile your religion, then fight." (IX:12)

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah." (VIII:61)
But then again, I'm not an Islamic scholar. I understand it's probably more nuanced. I think Dawud_UK not very long ago prescribed to the idea that Muslims have a permanent Casus Belli on any non-Muslim country that occupies land that was at one time or another controlled by Muslims.

Backstabbing after peace would be the most effective approach though, I agree with that! You have to time it properly though, since it might be hard to motivate people to fight after a few decades or peace. A few decades of peace is bound to lower the hate after all, people might get complacent! :exhausted :?
Reply

eyeofthestorm
06-13-2007, 10:43 PM
u know what i have actually given up hope for any sort of muslim ummah, its disguusting lebanon, actually whole of middle east just sitting there watching brother kill brother not any different in any other country, n ppl i cant fight dis war by myself....
Reply

KAding
06-13-2007, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
I believe that Norway & Japan have recently decided to break ranks, and resume direct aid to the Palestinian government.
Norway and Japan probably only 'broke ranks' because of the Hamas/Fatah unity government, no? If Hamas takes control forcefully, they will rejoin the ranks in no time.

You gotta unnderstand, that this anti-Hamas stance is most strong and biased in the West. Many Thrid World nations have no problem dealing with them.

Did you know that Russia doesn't even list them as a terrorist organization?
Third world nations by definition have little money to spare on aid though. Clearly the PA did not manage to generate enough income to actually pay their civil servants, let alone to balance their budget.

But who knows. Maybe some Hamas-friendly countries will take over, like Iran. The problem is that there is little to gain for non-Muslim third world countries. Why would they actively give money to an organization like Hamas? What would they have to gain?
Reply

KAding
06-13-2007, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by eyeofthestorm
u know what i have actually given up hope for any sort of muslim ummah, its disguusting lebanon, actually whole of middle east just sitting there watching brother kill brother not any different in any other country, n ppl i cant fight dis war by myself....
It is different in that it is probably worse. In-fighting is at very high levels in the Muslim world. Private militias are everywhere. Bombings and all-out civil wars are widespread. Just think of the many horrendous civil wars in countries like Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan. The bombings in Pakistan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bangladesh and Indonesia. Only sub-saharan Africa has seen more conflict in the last decade or so IMHO.
Reply

Zman
06-13-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
If Hamas takes control forcefully, they will rejoin the ranks in no time.

Well, if Hamas come out the undisputed champs, that'll create a new reality on the ground. And with time, many nations may end up having to deal with them.

Fatah, hasn't really provided anything meaningful to the Palestinian people. They are known for their stagnation and utter corruption. Now, they have taken sides with the US, Israel and some Arab governments, against a legally & democratically elected Hamas.

Fatah is by now totally irrelevant...

Third world nations by definition have little money to spare on aid though.

The Gulf states alone can sustain the PA.

many governments and the Arab League wanted to send the PA money, but Arab banks refused, because they were intimidated into submission by our State Department.

Then, Hamas members attempted to cross into Gaza from Egypt,with suitcases full of millions, most of it was confiscated by Egypt, The Joint Israeli/EU/Fatah guards at the border crossings...

Clearly the PA did not manage to generate enough income to actually pay their civil servants, let alone to balance their budget.
Actually, Israel has froze 100 million in taxes that are due to the PA. They won't even give it to Abbas...
Reply

Skywalker
06-13-2007, 11:35 PM
Today they had a very good report on Al Jazeera about the direct impact of the international boycott of Hamas as a government body on the Palestinian people. It's very sad actually. They say that household debt has risen 50-60% since Hamas was elected, mostly for electricity, groceries, and water. They also presented a leaked report from a former (I think) UN official there, that directly blames the stop of international aid to Palestine as a source of most of the problems going on there now.

It would be great if people all over the world united in giving aid to the Palestinians, if only someone could organize a thing like that...
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-14-2007, 12:05 AM
hamas defeat fatah:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas fighters launched a fierce offensive on Gaza City Wednesday, firing mortars and rockets at Fatah's main security bases and the president's compound as the Islamic group appeared close to taking control of the entire Gaza Strip.

Fatah's forces were crumbling fast, with some fighters seen fleeing their security posts and hundreds of others surrendering, hands raised, to masked Hamas gunmen.

A Hamas military victory in Gaza could split Palestinians into a Hamas-controlled Gaza and a Fatah-run West Bank, and push the prospect of statehood even further away. It could also set the stage for a bloody confrontation with Israel, which might intervene to prevent attacks from Gaza.

In the southern town of Khan Younis, Hamas militants surrounded a security headquarters and warned everyone inside to leave or they would blow it up, witnesses said. The building was then destroyed by a bomb planted in a tunnel underneath it, said Ali Qaisi, a presidential guard spokesman.

An Associated Press reporter saw defeated Fatah fighters streaming out of the building after turning over their weapons to Hamas militants. Hamas took weapons, clothes and vehicles and flew a green Islamic flag over the building, then celebrated by firing in the air and passing out candy.

Security forces later said they had lost control of the town.

"Khan Younis is finished," said Ziad Sarafandi, a senior security official.

At least 20 people were killed in fighting Wednesday, bringing the total in the four days of infighting to over 60. Among those killed Wednesday was a man shot when Hamas gunmen fired on a peaceful protest against the violence, witnesses said.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah called the fighting "madness" and pleaded with the exiled leader of Hamas to halt the violence.

Abbas and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas issued a joint statement after nightfall, calling on all sides "to halt fighting, and to return to language of dialogue and respect of agreements," according to a statement from Abbas' office. The call was broadcast on Palestinian TV.

Hamas radio denied the two had agreed to a truce, and clashes intensified in the hour after their statement was broadcast.

Hamas and Fatah nominally share power in a coalition government, while Fatah runs most of Gaza's security forces. But no one was listening to the elected leaders' pleas for calm as the focus of power passed to street militias.

Hamas gunmen neutralized the main strongholds of the Fatah-linked security forces, ruling the streets and taking control of large parts of Gaza in the process.

Abbas' forces — desperately trying to cling to their besieged bases in Gaza — lashed out at the president, saying he left them with no directions and no support in the fight.

Hamas and Fatah have waged a sporadic power struggle since Hamas won parliament elections last year, ending four decades of Fatah dominance of Palestinian affairs. But the battle is now verging on civil war, as Hamas wages a systematic assault on security forces.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said he discussed the possible deployment of a multinational force in Gaza with the Security Council on Wednesday after the Israeli and Palestinian leaders raised the idea.

With fighting raging on rooftops and streets in nearly all corners of Gaza, residents huddled in fear in their homes.

Hamas, already in control of much of northern Gaza, seized Khan Younis on Wednesday and began a coordinated assault on the southern town of Rafah, security officials said.

Hamas militants blew up a security building near Rafah after a long gunbattle, said Col. Nasser Khaldi, a senior police official.

"What can I say? This is a fall, a collapse," he said.

Fayez Abu Taha, 45, a businessman in Rafah, said he was trapped in his apartment building with his family after Hamas fighters took over a nearby rooftop and Fatah responded by taking over the roof of his building.

"I don't know what they are battling for now," he said. "I can see the bullets flying from my windows. Coming and going."

The rout of the security forces was so bad that 40 Palestinian security officers broke through the border fence in Rafah and fled into Egypt seeking safety, Egyptian police said.

In the afternoon, Hamas forces attacked the three main compounds of the Fatah-allied forces in Gaza City — the headquarters of the Preventive Security, the Intelligence Service and the National Forces — in what could usher in the final phase of the battle.

Hamas fighters, firing rockets and mortar shells, took over the rooftops in nearby houses and cut off the roads to prevent reinforcements from arriving. They called on the beleaguered Fatah forces to surrender.

Hamas gunmen in high-rise buildings also fired at Abbas' Gaza office and house and his guard force returned fire. Abbas was in the West Bank at the time of the fighting.

During the battle at the Preventive Security Service base, both sides fired wildly from high-rise rooftops.

Dr. Wael Abdel Jawad, a physician trapped in his apartment, said he heard Fatah fighters shouting at colleagues on an adjacent roof to send them more ammunition.

"All of us are terrified here. Shooting came through the windows of our apartment, children are screaming. We are hearing from a nearby mosque the call by Hamas to surrender," he said.

"Those fighters on rooftops are like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills. They don't know where to shoot," he said.

In another dramatic battle in Gaza City, hundreds of members of the Fatah-allied Bakr clan, which had fought fiercely for two days, surrendered to masked Hamas gunmen and were led, arms raised, to a nearby mosque. Footage broadcast on Hamas' Al Aqsa TV showed some of the Bakr women trying to enter the mosque. Hamas gunmen later drove off with some of the Bakr fighters, witnesses said.

Two women from the clan tried to leave the area to take a sick girl to a hospital and were shot and killed by jittery Hamas gunmen, a clan member said.

After nightfall, Hamas militants blew up the house of one of the Bakr clan's leaders, witnesses said.

Early Thursday, Fatah officials said their forces withdrew from some bases in central Gaza and destroyed them, rather than allow them to fall into Hamas hands.

In Washington, U.S. officials condemned the fighting.

"Violence certainly does not serve the interest of the Palestinian people, and it's not going to bring the peace and prosperity that they deserve," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

"They are shooting at anyone and everyone who is Fatah," said Youssef Abu Siyam, a Preventive Security officer in Rafah.

The fighting spilled into the Fatah-dominated West Bank. Hamas and Fatah gunmen exchanged fire in the city of Nablus and a nearby refugee camp after Fatah gunmen tried to storm a pro-Hamas TV production company. Hamas said 12 of its fighters were wounded.

On Wednesday, Abbas spoke by phone with the Damascus-based Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal to try to stop the crisis, said Abbas aide Nimr Hamad.

"This is madness, the madness that is going on in Gaza now," Abbas told reporters.

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency, which provides aid to Palestinian refugees, said it would curtail its operations after two of its Palestinian workers were killed by crossfire.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri, said the clashes could have been avoided if Abbas had given the Hamas-led Cabinet control over the security forces, which he blamed for a wave of kidnappings, torture and violence in Gaza.

(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/...l_palestinians)

this may be the beggining of the end of the major battles we have seen in gaza as hamas have all but won this fight.
Reply

Skywalker
06-14-2007, 06:16 AM
Whoops didn't notice this...

Originally Posted by KAding
You mean signing a peace and then backstabbing them when they aren't expecting it (like on Yum Kippur or something ;))? Isn't that a bit dishonorable though? I vaguely remember reading in the Qu'ran that it is not allowed to attack people with which you have a treaty?
You're right, you're not allowed to attack someone with whom you've made a treaty, but does the recognition of Isreal's right to exist equate to a peace treaty. A peace treaty means you won't attack each other for a certain amount of time unless the other attacks first. The recognition of the other party's existance is not the same, at least from my point of view.

Originally Posted by Sami
This may be the beggining of the end of the major battles we have seen in gaza as hamas have all but won this fight.
Yeah it does appear as if they've won, but the question now is where they'll go from here. Will the rest of the Palestinians that are pro-Fatah explode in civil war with Hamas or will there actually be peace? Secondly, will this improve or hinder the peace process in general?

I guess everything will become apparent in the coming days insha-Allah.
Reply

Bittersteel
06-14-2007, 06:39 AM
kindly people don't defend the action of the Arabs in the past just because they are Muslims.They did a lot of things wrong which has got the whole region into like this,though they are not the only ones to blame.
Reply

MTAFFI
06-14-2007, 09:50 PM
Abbas dissolves Palestinian government By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer
12 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and disbanded the Hamas-led unity government after the Islamic militant group vanquished its Fatah rivals and effectively took control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

ADVERTISEMENT

Fearful that Hamas' momentum could spread to the West Bank, Fatah went on the offensive there, rounding up three dozen Hamas fighters. Angry Fatah militants threw office furniture out a third-story window of the Palestinian parliament building in the West Bank city of Ramallah, then set fire to the office of three Hamas lawmakers.

It was a day of major victories for Hamas and its backers in Iran and Syria — and of devastating setbacks for the Western-backed Fatah. In one particularly humiliating scene, masked Hamas fighters marched agents of the once-feared Preventive Security Service out of their headquarters, arms raised in the air, stripped to the waist and ducking at the sound of a gunshot.

The violence has killed at least 90 people in the past five days, including 32 on Thursday alone. Witnesses, Fatah officials and a doctor reported executions by Hamas militants of defeated Fatah fighters Thursday; Fatah said seven of its men were shot in the head gangland-style. Hamas denied any such killings.

Abbas, of Fatah, fired the Hamas prime minister and said he would install a new government, replacing the Hamas-Fatah coalition formed just three months ago. Abbas' decrees won't reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead, his moves will enable Fatah to consolidate its control over the West Bank, likely paving the way for two separate Palestinian governments.

Because Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist and signed on to past peace agreements, the international community's boycott of the Palestinian territories in the wake of Hamas' electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank — just to Gaza. Some 2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, while 1.4 million reside in Gaza.

Hamas' success has thrown into turmoil everything from Mideast peacemaking to Palestinian statehood to relations with Israel and the West.

"The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived," Hamas spokesman Islam Shahawan said.

Fatah's old demons — corruption, petty quarreling, lack of leadership — led to its dismal performance. While disciplined Hamas systematically hoarded weapons, Fatah's Gaza leader, Mohammed Dahlan, preferred travel and West Bank politics to preparing for the inevitable showdown with the Islamic militants. Dahlan returned Thursday from Egypt, where he stayed several weeks after knee surgery. But instead of going to Gaza, he headed for Ramallah.

Many West Bank Palestinians, watching the fall of Gaza on their TV screens, pinned the blame on Abbas, whom they see as indecisive and detached. During Hamas's assaults in Gaza this week, no prominent Fatah leader was in the coastal strip to take command.

"Hamas has leadership, a goal, an ideology and funding," said Gaza analyst Talal Okal. "Fatah has neither leadership, nor a goal, a vision or money."

By capturing Gaza City's three main security compounds and the southern town of Rafah, Hamas secured its hegemony in Gaza, putting Islamic extremists in control there. Hamas seized its final target, Abbas' Gaza City headquarters, late Thursday, according to witnesses.

For first time since fighting erupted five days ago, Abbas issued an order to strike back. But his words were too little, too late.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Abbas' decisions have "no value" on the ground.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz vowed not to let the takeover of Gaza spill over into violence against Israel. Some Israelis said only a Gaza invasion could curb Hamas' military power. But for now, the government seems more inclined to stay out, fearful of inviting more rocket attacks on southern Israel.

In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States backs Abbas' move. Abbas informed Rice of his decision in a phone call earlier Thursday.

"President Abbas has exercised his lawful authority as president of the Palestinian Authority, as leader of the Palestinian people," Rice said. "We fully support him in his decision to try and end this crisis for the Palestinian people and to give them an opportunity ... to return to peace and a better future."

The European Commission, meanwhile, suspended tens of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid projects in the Gaza Strip because of the escalating violence, a day after the U.N. announced it would scale back its relief projects there.

This week's fighting has been the most intense since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year, setting the stage for a violent power struggle with Fatah. Hamas reluctantly brought Fatah into the coalition in March to quell an earlier round of violence, but the uneasy partnership began crumbling last month over control of the powerful security forces.

No battle was more indicative of Gaza's hatreds and passions than the one at Preventive Security, one of Fatah's four main security bases in the coastal strip. After Hamas fighters overran it in a hail of mortar and gunfire Thursday, they touched their heads to the ground in prayer and marched vanquished gunmen into the streets shirtless.

Preventive Security carried out a brutal crackdown on Hamas in 1996, and the militants never forgot it. "There is a history to it, a vendetta and a settling of scores," said Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi.

Fatah officials, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, said Hamas shot dead seven Fatah fighters after they had surrendered. A doctor at Shifa Hospital said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

A witness named Amjad who lives in a high-rise building that overlooks the Preventive Security complex said men were killed in front of their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

The killers, he said, ignored appeals from neighborhood residents to spare the men's lives.

Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, denied the reports of gangland-style killings. "Whoever was killed was killed in clashes," he said.

Hamas TV said the Preventive Security building would be turned into an Islamic college. It showed a room with wall-to-wall wiretapping equipment — a testament to Fatah's collapsed control.

Hamas fighters later seized the Fatah-controlled intelligence services building, planting the Islamic group's green flag on the roof of the ship-shaped structure. And after nightfall, the group announced it had seized Fatah's last stronghold in Gaza, the National Security headquarters.

Hamas TV showed smoke billowing from the top two floors of the mortar-pocked, five-story intelligence building. Five masked gunmen posed inside for the TV camera, including one who raised two assault rifles in triumph.

Another gunman, wearing a Hamas headband around his helmet, stood in a pose of prayer, a hand to each side of his head, screaming "Allah is Great" at the top of his voice.

Spent bullets lay on the floor in one office, and a carton holding hand grenades stood in another area.

Outside the building, three masked gunmen prayed on the sidewalk, their weapons on the ground in front of them as they kneeled in prayer.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070614/...l_palestinians
Reply

Keltoi
06-14-2007, 10:36 PM
What we could see here is two Palestinian governments. One in the West Bank and one in Gaza. The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence. There will be a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel...hopefully, and the Abbas government is the only entity that seems interested in achieving that.

It might seem bad now, but I'm beginning to think this might be just the thing needed to force the Palestinians to focus on stability and peace.
Reply

Zman
06-14-2007, 10:38 PM
:sl:/Peace To All


Hamas Seizes PA Intelligence Materials, Say Israeli Tactics Exposed

After Storming PA Security Headquarters In Gaza, Hamas Officials Say They've Uncovered Tousands Of Documents, Including Classified Correspondence With Israeli Forces.

Hamas: 'These Will Help Us Battle Israel's Surveillance Tactics'

By Ali Waked
Published: 06.14.07, 18:09 / Israel News
Ynet

After overtaking the Palestinian Authority's Preventive Security headquarters in Gaza City on Thursday afternoon, Hamas fighters report they have seized tens of thousands of highly valuable intelligence documents, including correspondence between the PA and others, including the CIA, regarding security issues.

A Hamas member told Ynet that he and his men removed thousands of documents, video tapes and other equipment from the compound:
"I saw my name appeared at least four times in the intelligence documents – in attempts to take me out. I saw details of surveillance against me and joint Fatah-Israeli plans to thwart our attacks."

"These will help us battle Israel's surveillance tactics," he added.

"If we release these documents, the entire world will be shocked, not just the Palestinians. The dozens of armored vehicles, RPG launchers and rockets, the hundreds of thousands of bullets we have – they are all nothing compared to the documents and data discs we uncovered.

"There are video tapes of surveillance against our fighters and their homes, wiretaps on our calls, the PA's entire method of operation has been exposed," he said.

The Hamas man said that the documents also implicate several Arab nations of involvement in the internal Palestinian power-struggle in an attempt to impair Hamas.

According to the Hamas source the papers also document the PA's cooperation with the American CIA against Palestinian organizations, especially Hamas.

Releasing the documents would entail the approval of the Hamas leadership, said the Hamas source, saying that the documents would be used to prove the justness of Hamas' fight against the Palestinian security forces.

The WorldNetDaily news website reported Muhammed Abdel-El, the spokesperson for the Hamas-allied Popular Resistance Committees group, as saying:

"The CIA files we seized, which include documents, CDs, taped conversations, and videos, are more important that all the American weapons we obtained the last two days as we took over the traitor Fatah's positions."

Another Hamas official, quoted by WND, said the CIA documents they browsed so far contain

"information about the collaboration between Fatah and the Israeli and American security organizations; CIA methods on how to prevent attacks, chase and follow after cells of Hamas and the Committees; plans about Fatah assassinations of members of Hamas and other organizations; and American studies on the security situation in Gaza."

The official claimed the documents also detailed CIA networks in other Arab countries, and "how to help beat Islamic allies of Hamas in other Arab countries, including Egypt and Jordan.

"We will use these documents and make portions public to prove the collaboration between America and traitor Arab countries," he told WND.

Waiting For Abbas

Meanwhile all eyes are on Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas is preparing itself for any scenario, threatening that any decision on Abbas' part that is not deemed acceptable by Hamas will lead to an escalation in the clashes.

"We are the elected government and we represent the Palestinian public's legitimacy," said Hamas.

Hamas said it was prepared to begin combating the anarchy rampant throughout the PA using Hamas Special Forces, police forces and the civilian guard – all would answer only to Hamas.

"None of the other collapsed forces will be allowed to operate save these groups," announced Hamas.

Another possibility Hamas says it is prepared is the isolation of Gaza and Abbas declaring it a rogue district.

Earlier on Thursday aides to Abbas said that he had given the first order to his elite presidential guard to strike back against Hamas.

Source:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...413019,00.html
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-14-2007, 10:40 PM
well the goverment in the west bank is what u call a BS goverment since they lost the elections, hence what their doing with AMERICAN support is saying yeah we dont like the democratically elected goverment, so yeah ummm well just keep our own one to rule west bank.
Reply

Trumble
06-14-2007, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What we could see here is two Palestinian governments. One in the West Bank and one in Gaza. The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence.
I think that's a reasonable assessment. I just feel so sorry for the people of Gaza.

Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
well the goverment in the west bank is what u call a BS goverment since they lost the elections, hence what their doing with AMERICAN support is saying yeah we dont like the democratically elected goverment, so yeah ummm well just keep our own one to rule west bank.
A ludicrous argument. As Hamas have essentially taken over in Gaza by violence why should Fatah consider they still have any democratic legitimacy? The elections were not intended to establish a permanent Hamas government and did not give them authority to try and obtain one by non-democratic means.
Reply

rav
06-15-2007, 12:06 AM
90 people dead and only apalogetics. It seems there is no care for Palestinian lives at all here. Just care for which bullets took their lives.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-15-2007, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by rav
90 people dead and only apalogetics. It seems there is no care for Palestinian lives at all here. Just care for which bullets took their lives.
most of the dead are millitants (fatah millitants)
Reply

rav
06-15-2007, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
most of the dead are millitants (fatah millitants)
Untrue, I believe that I have read that most of the dead are civillians, although please feel free to call me out if I am wrong. However, what good is that going to do? Fatah now knows according to many witnesses that Hamas has executed there "brothers" in front of their wives and children. It will just launch a new cycle of violence, especially in the West bank where any Hamas supporter will basically be taking cover for months because Fatah dominates the West Bank so much.
Reply

Zman
06-15-2007, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Fatah controlled area will probably make more peace agreements with Israel, money will flow into the government and the infrastructure from international sources...while the Hamas controlled area will spiral into even worse poverty and decay, not to mention perpetual violence.

1. Hamas has proven to possess intense adaptabilty & survival skills.

The kidnapping of their parliamentarians and leadership, hasn't dented their ability to continue functioning as an organization and government.

2. Hamas will still find a way to bring in the money, whether via donations, or actual state affairs, between nations.

3. The new kid on the block, is Hamas. Fatah, is outdated and is in intensive care with a DNR sign hanging over its head.

4. Whether specific nations like it or not, Hamas is here for the long haul, and with time, nations will end up dealing with them.

5. Since they've defeated Fatah, and are the sole entity in complete and undisputed control of Gaza, there will be no competition nor internal subversives of any weight to disrupt their governance.

So, I believe that there will be periods of tranqulity in Gaza (I'm sure Israel and others won't hesitate to disrupt their rule, but at least on an internal level, they have no large Palestinian structure challenging them).

6. In the West Bank, Fatah will be holding on tooth-and-nail. Time isn't on their side. Especially, after they were manhandled in Gaza, and many of it's security forces either fled, captured and killed.

Also, Hamas has a presence in the West Bank. Although it's smaller than Gaza, but, nontheless, strong, organized, disciplined and efficient. Even with their smaller size, Fatah (with all the aid its receiving from the CIA, Egypt, Jordan and Israel), hasn't managed to eradicate them.

So, the Palestinian people will eventually Join/support Hamas in droves. I wouldn't be surprised if many Fatah members also switched allegiance...


There will be a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel...hopefully, and the Abbas government is the only entity that seems interested in achieving that.


1. Fatah will soon become a footnote in History. Quite a few members are unhappy with it's current situation (with Israel), and I believe it will eventually divide into smaller and disorganized fiefdoms.

They've already demonstrated that they're only interested in power and authority and have forsaken the Palestinian people & their cause. They are corrupt and decaying.

2. I don't think that a "peace" agreement between Israel and Fatah will last long. You can't have peace with half the Palestinians, only.

Don't forget, this so-called "civil war," is actually a power struggle and not a true civil war.

It's Just skirmishes and battles between 2 organizations and 2 factions of government.

The Palestinian people as a whole, have not participated in the fighting. So, it's not really a civil war.

Once the dust settles and the undisputed victor appears, you'll see the general population flocking to Hamas.

3. Hamas has offered before to enter into a Just, and comprehensive agreement with Israel, without American/Israeli preconditions.

4. They even offered Israel a 10 year truce.

5. They had voluntarily entered into a one-sided cesation of hositilites for a year, and in all that time, Israel never reciprocated and continued on assassinating Hamas members, and murdering Palestinian civilians.

So, it is Hamas & the Palestinians who are genuinely interested in a Just and comprehensive peace agreement, not Israel.

All Israel does is stall and constantly erect roadblocks, in order to avoid any peace agreements.

Don' forget that Israel is a militaristic society, and needs constant conflict and warfare. Warfare is Israel's oxygen.

If Hamas ends up having the majority of the masses behind them, the West will eventually have to deal with the Hamas government. Because they've seen that if they can't divide the people from the government, their plots are doomed to failure.

And if the West deals with the Hamas government, the rest of the worlds governments will follow in our footsteps. Some may be dealing with Hamas covertly, already (not referring to Iran & Syria, but probably others, also)...
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-15-2007, 12:29 AM
fatah are the old, they are the product of fail arab nationalism movements formed during the 60's 70's and 80's, and as we all know arab nationalism completly failed. since most ppl in the mid-east realized that they are now turning to the religion and forming Islamic groups, you see this all over the place now, and thats what hamas is, and groups like hamas are the future of the mid-east, since nationalistic groups like fatah have never done anything, were always corrupt, and always wanted money and power, thats what you get with arab nationalism groups. hamas need to strengthen themselves up in gaza now, make it a fortress because israel will eventually attack, turn gaza into south lebanon, where the IDF didnt have a single space of breathing space, they cudnt move anywhere nor occupy any land for long periods, hamas shud do this.

also as zman said, many fatah members will most likely defect now, perhaps this conflict with hamas will make them see the light, that infact they belonged to a corrupt group fighting for something other than palestine.
Reply

rav
06-15-2007, 12:29 AM
3. Hamas has offered before to enter into a Just, and comprehensive agreement with Israel, without American/Israeli preconditions.

4. They even offered Israel a 10 year truce.
Hold on! Hamas out of the "goodness" of their hearts offered to allow Israel to not attack them and disrupt their arming abilities for 10 years so they can plan an effective strategy to kill more Jews?

Don' forget that Israel is a militaristic society, and needs constant conflict and warfare. Warfare is Israel's oxygen.
If that statement is true, such oxygen was only formed by Arab attacks again and again. Although I don't think its true.

Fatah will soon become a footnote in History.
What makes you believe that. If the Fatah gunmen and the Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade are not kept under control in the West Bank by Abbas they may wipe out any trace of support for Hamas in the west bank. I think you have no clue how much in power they are there, not just in arms, but in support.

My comments: I think it is sickening, but many extremists in Israel were rooting for Hamas. The international community only pressures Israel when they have a peace partner. Not recongnizing Israel and these ridiculous "peace deals for 10 years" have no credence in the world. Fatah they view as just as evil, but trying to destroy Israel in a more subtle matter. In my mind, I view Fatah as a greater foe and more deceptive. With Hamas you know what you have. No trickery, they state what they want and you can respond without hesitation or disorder in the UN. The problem I have with Hamas is that I believe there will be no freedom for Palestinians and it has just led to more fear for them. I think if a vote occured today Sami, Hamas would lose. Just compare Gaza from now, and then to before Hamas got elected.

Ask any neutral Palestinian and they would want to live with their families in the old Gaza. It is not some war game to them as it is to you. It is their life.
Reply

Talha777
06-15-2007, 12:40 PM
Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.

The problem I have with Hamas is that I believe there will be no freedom for Palestinians and it has just led to more fear for them
Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.
Reply

Sami Zaatari
06-15-2007, 12:52 PM
rav perhaps if you let the gazans freely use their border without so many restrictions then their life would become much better since this would let hamas bring in lots of aid for the ppl etc, but hamas have to do everything in secret,smuggle money in etc, which makes it hard, and effects the ppl. so hence the problem in gaza is not hamas's fault, the ppl elected hamas, and u guys dont like it, hence u stop everything there, open the border in the south and it will be all good, hamas will be able to easily get lots of money and aid in, but you guys dont want to do that, hence stop blaming hamas for everything.
Reply

rav
06-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.



Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.
I see what you are saying Talha, but if that was the case, then why does Fatah still have so much support as demonstrated by their overwhelming majority and popularity in the West Bank?

rav perhaps if you let the gazans freely use their border without so many restrictions then their life would become much better since this would let hamas bring in lots of aid for the ppl etc, but hamas have to do everything in secret,smuggle money in etc, which makes it hard, and effects the ppl. so hence the problem in gaza is not hamas's fault, the ppl elected hamas, and u guys dont like it, hence u stop everything there, open the border in the south and it will be all good, hamas will be able to easily get lots of money and aid in, but you guys dont want to do that, hence stop blaming hamas for everything.
Perhaps you are correct. However, I think the border restrictions originated because of attacks on Israel's civilian population. Will Hamas get aid in the form of medicine, books, and food or more weapons?

No one disputes that the people indeed did elect Hamas. However, just because the Palestinians democratically elected a group, does that mean the world is bound to have to follow or respect such a group? The citizens who vote in any elections must live with the consequences that the leaders they elect will create in the area of foreign relations. In no way under my opinion can liberal democracies be trusted anymore. The Germans in the 1930's were an "enlightened" democracy, which was at the head of technological era, yet they commited the most digusting crimes ever known to man in this era against the Jewish people.
Reply

Skywalker
06-17-2007, 02:58 PM
Well things are really cooking now :S

Gaza is now ruled by Hamas, while the West Bank is now ruled solely by Fatah and Hamas is outlawed.

Gaza has lost its fuel lines due to this mess, while the West Bank is about to recieve financial aid and a drop on its embargo. Very interesting indeed.

To be honest, I don't really know what to think of all this. The people of Gaza could really suffer because of this, while there no telling what the new government will do to the Hamas in the West Bank. Will it be a civil war? Brother killing brother? Or...here's a new one...what if Fatah and Hamas are staging this whole mess just to get the embargo lifted and recieve their aid, only to put the money into weapons and make a large-attack on Israel? In other words...what if this is all a show just to get money? Do you think that they're that smart? If they are...that would be really, really cool.

Maybe I've just been watching too much TV. :D
Reply

muslima-layla
06-17-2007, 03:34 PM
:sl: brothers and sisters
As of many of you may feel it sadens me when i see my fellow muslims killing one another. the situation in plastine in some way is rediculas. why must the plastinians kill each other while israel's are killing them? why cant the two groups just come togather and decided whats best for their country instead of killing one another? right know the israels are sitting down on their sofas and loughing at the situation in plastine and loughing at how weak our muslim umma is. If the muslim umma actually cared for about the plaestinians they would have helped those plastinians before the situation got worse. in 2006 palistine picked hamaz and the muslim umma loved them to my understanding so did any of the muslim countries help them????? because if they did im sure this situation wouldnt be as worse as it is today.
i saw the other day on news hamaz man wearing mask with gun around the streets and going into offices viloently throughing their guns around and killing people. why??? is this they way we get power? is this even islam? look at the israels you dont hear them killing one another. they all come togather as israels and they help each other up, so why cant the muslim umma do that? our beloved prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said the muslim umma is like the human shield if one part of the body aches the whole body aches. :w:
Reply

wilberhum
06-17-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Hamas is victorious in Gaza. Subhan Allah.



Palestinians dont want freedom, they want Islam.
Interesting! :skeleton: So there is no freedom in Islam? :?
Reply

KAding
06-17-2007, 07:09 PM
This is such a mess. I'm really becoming a cynic on this whole mess. We should just disengage. Neither side deserves our support, let alone our money. Not the Israelis with their settlement policies, nor the in-fighting Palestinians of which a whole bunch seem hellbent on the destruction of Israel and who seem to think blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv or randomly lobbing some rockets over a fence is the proper way to achieving it.

It time to disengage and look to regions in the world were our money and attention can do more good. Neither side seems to appreciate our input much either way.
Reply

wilberhum
06-17-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
This is such a mess. I'm really becoming a cynic on this whole mess. We should just disengage. Neither side deserves our support, let alone our money. Not the Israelis with their settlement policies, nor the in-fighting Palestinians of which a whole bunch seem hellbent on the destruction of Israel and who seem to think blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv or randomly lobbing some rockets over a fence is the proper way to achieving it.

It time to disengage and look to regions in the world were our money and attention can do more good. Neither side seems to appreciate our input much either way.
Ditto! :thumbs_up
Reply

Zman
06-18-2007, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Neither side seems to appreciate our input much

"Our Input," is what created this mess, in the first place.

But, I do agree with you. We should definitely disengage, not aid either side, and let them resolve their problems on their own.

As for looking towards othe regions around the world, we need to play nice and be fair. Because, we are loathed around the world, due to our continuous meddling in other peoples affairs.

We've done good deeds with our humanitarian aid after natural disasters, for example, but, we waisted whatever political capital we've accumulated with our employment of military interventions, CIA's dirty tricks, political bias, and economic injustice...
Reply

KAding
06-18-2007, 07:26 AM
Originally Posted by Zman
[i]
"Our Input," is what created this mess, in the first place.
I disagree. "We" are unjustly being blamed for this mess. The Israelis are a sovereign people. Nor do I accept this reasoning that we're responsible for the Pals killing each other because we failed to unconditionally send them our money.

But, I do agree with you. We should definitely disengage, not aid either side, and let them resolve their problems on their own.

As for looking towards othe regions around the world, we need to play nice and be fair. Because, we are loathed around the world, due to our continuous meddling in other peoples affairs.

We've done good deeds with our humanitarian aid after natural disasters, for example, but, we waisted whatever political capital we've accumulated with our employment of military interventions, CIA's dirty tricks, political bias, and economic injustice...
I don't think Europe is hated that much really. I suppose some see us as a US appendage. Besides, its not as if Islam has a particularly good name in this world. What lessons do you learn from that?
Reply

MTAFFI
06-18-2007, 07:00 PM
Sanctions taken off Abbas-led government By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer
45 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The Bush administration on Monday lifted its economic and political embargo against the Palestinian government, Secretary of State

Condoleezza Rice announced.

ADVERTISEMENT


The move follows the expulsion of the militant Hamas movement from the

Palestinian Authority, and is meant to strengthen Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas by resuming direct U.S. aid.

Rice said she had informed new Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the decision in a phone call.

"I told him the United States would resume full assistance to the Palestinian government and normal government-to-government contacts," she told reporters at the State Department. "I told the prime minister that we want to work with his government and support his efforts to enforce the rule of law and to ensure a better life for the Palestinian people."

"We intend to lift our financial restrictions on the Palestinian government, which has accepted previous agreements with

Israel and rejects the path of violence. This will enable the American people and American financial institutions to resume normal economic and commercial ties with the Palestinaian government," Rice said.

She said the administration will ask Congress to rework a previous $86 million aid request. That money had been intended to help shore up Abbas' security forces but could now be put to other uses.

Separately, Rice said the United States would contribute an additional $40 million to the

United Nations to help Palestinians, particularly in the

Gaza Strip, which is now controlled by Hamas.

"Through its actions, Hamas sought to divide the Palestinan nation, we reject that," Rice said. "It is the position of the United States that there is one Palestinian people and there should be one Palestinian state."

"We are not going to countenance that somehow the Palestinians are divisible," she said "We are not going to abandon the Palestinians living in Gaza."

Hamas seized control of Gaza last week after a series of battles with Abbas'

Fatah movement. The violence left Gaza increasingly isolated, a situation that worsened Sunday when an Israeli fuel company cut off deliveries to gas stations in the impoverished coastal strip.

Its violent takeover of the Gaza Strip split the Palestinian government in two: the Hamas leadership headed by deposed Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza and the new Cabinet now led by Fayyad, a U.S.-educated economist, in the

West Bank.

Earlier Monday,

President Bush spoke with Abbas to express full U.S. support for his decision to dissolve the government, swear in an emergency Cabinet and outlaw the militia forces of Hamas, the White House said.

In the call, Bush noted that he plans to meet Tuesday with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and that he would share their thoughts on how to continue, White House press secretary Tony Snow said.

"What's important is, you have to have a partner who is committed to peace, and we believe that President Abbas is," Snow said. "And therefore we are committed to working with this new emergency government."

Hamas' violent takeover of the Gaza Strip last week split the Palestinian government in two: the Hamas leadership headed by deposed Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza and the new Cabinet now led by the Western-backed economist Salam Fayyad in the West Bank.

"We have said that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Snow said. "I think it's pretty clear what our stance has been."

The move essentially resets U.S. policy to the days before Hamas swept legislative elections in early 2006 and upended U.S. and international peacemaking. The United States, Israel and the

European Union regard Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Since those elections, Hamas has continued to flex its muscles.

Meanwhile, in a major boost to Abbas, European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana announced in Luxembourg on Monday that the 27-nation bloc would resume direct financial aid to the Palestinian Authority now that Hamas is no longer part of the government.

Hamas, which does not recognize Israel's right to exist, now runs Gaza. Abbas and his secular Fatah Party now run the West Bank. The larger West Bank is home to more than 1.5 million Palestinians.

Some in the United States and in Europe have advocated a policy dubbed "West Bank first" in which the West Bank would stand as an example of what a future Palestinian state could be. Critics on the other side say that leaves Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip without assistance. Europeans oppose this idea, and still others worry it would leave the Gaza Strip open to funding and influence from Iran and Syria.

Five years ago, Bush called for a separate, independent Palestine alongside Israel. He was the first U.S. president to back that notion so fully and publicly. But his administration has taken heavy criticism for letting the peace process drift while conditions worsened for the impoverished Palestinians.

In New York on Sunday, Olmert said his country would be a "genuine partner" of a new Palestinian government and promised to consider releasing the hundreds of millions of dollars in frozen tax funds.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070618/..._pe/us_mideast
Reply

Skywalker
06-18-2007, 07:41 PM
President Bush spoke with Abbas to express full U.S. support for his decision to dissolve the government, swear in an emergency Cabinet and outlaw the militia forces of Hamas, the White House said.

That Bush is a real piece of work. He supports Abbas' decision to dissolve a democratically elected government -- in other words...to hell with democracy. But wait a sec...isn't he at the same time imposing this idea of democracy on other countries around the world?? And if he doesn't like who's selected there, would he also support its dissolve??

Something doesn't add up.
Reply

wilberhum
06-18-2007, 07:53 PM
Why do you think we need to support a terrorist group just because they were democratically elected? :rollseyes

You can't be that blind. OK so you think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys, what make you think they derserve our support? :?

Because they throw less people off roof tops? :skeleton:
Reply

Trumble
06-18-2007, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
He supports Abbas' decision to dissolve a democratically elected government -- in other words...to hell with democracy.

Something doesn't add up.
What doesn't add up is that people (about a third of them, actually) voted for Hamas political representives, not a Hamas military takeover in Gaza. Not very 'democratic', that.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
06-19-2007, 01:32 AM
Well things are not that black and white, first the Israelli goverment tried really hard to change them from a terrorist group into a political group, since poletics is "safer" then terrorism. But then once they got elected they completely changed course and considered them illegal
Reply

Keltoi
06-19-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well things are not that black and white, first the Israelli goverment tried really hard to change them from a terrorist group into a political group, since poletics is "safer" then terrorism. But then once they got elected they completely changed course and considered them illegal
Yes, most observers wanted Hamas to become a political party. The problem with their election as a political party was that rockets were still being fired by Hamas into Israeli cities. It is hard to negotiate in good faith with a party who is actively engaged in attempting to kill your citizens. Fatah, while still connected to the Al-Aqsa Brigades, at least attempted to be a viable negotiating partner, Hamas has never honestly been interested in a good faith negotiation with Israel.
Reply

Skywalker
06-19-2007, 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why do you think we need to support a terrorist group just because they were democratically elected? :rollseyes

You can't be that blind. OK so you think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys, what make you think they derserve our support? :?

Because they throw less people off roof tops? :skeleton:
It's only a terrorist group because the US labels it as such. Secondly, the US is partially to blame for this whole mess because as soon as Hamas was elected, before they had a chance to do anything (be it positive or negative), an embargo was imposed on Palestine and all financial aid that was almost critical for their survival was cut off.

Now, the people are blaming Hamas for the economic decline of Palestine whilst forgetting what's probably the root cause of that.

As for the military operations carried out by Hamas...they're wrong. They were stupid. Launching a few rockets into an Israeli settlement is probably THE dumbest thing you can do...in fact it's almost too dumb, to the extent that I have a feeling something's not right there. Nevertheless, Hamas have confirmed it on TV without condemning it so there's really no point of discussion.

The question is, had Hamas not taken any military action against Israel save for defense, do you think that the US or the international community would've given them their aid back and lifted the embargo? I seriously doubt it. Hunger and desperation makes people do stupid things. I don't condone their actions, but I do understand their situation.
Reply

Keltoi
06-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
It's only a terrorist group because the US labels it as such. Secondly, the US is partially to blame for this whole mess because as soon as Hamas was elected, before they had a chance to do anything (be it positive or negative), an embargo was imposed on Palestine and all financial aid that was almost critical for their survival was cut off.

Now, the people are blaming Hamas for the economic decline of Palestine whilst forgetting what's probably the root cause of that.

As for the military operations carried out by Hamas...they're wrong. They were stupid. Launching a few rockets into an Israeli settlement is probably THE dumbest thing you can do...in fact it's almost too dumb, to the extent that I have a feeling something's not right there. Nevertheless, Hamas have confirmed it on TV without condemning it so there's really no point of discussion.

The question is, had Hamas not taken any military action against Israel save for defense, do you think that the US or the international community would've given them their aid back and lifted the embargo? I seriously doubt it. Hunger and desperation makes people do stupid things. I don't condone their actions, but I do understand their situation.
Hamas is considered a terrorist group because they send suicide bombers to kill people in pizza parlors. If Hamas would have shown some sign that they were interested in a peaceful solution to the problem the international community would have reconsidered the economic assistance. If the only thing keeping the Palestinians afloat is international assistance, perhaps they should be more focused on making them happy....if not, why whine about it?
Reply

muthenna
06-19-2007, 12:23 PM
Hamas sends suicide bombers and israel sends apache helos so?!?!?!
The point is fatah are bunch of secularists with the israeli spy Muhamed Dahlan as one of its leaders, this terrorism nomenclature is political stuff, to denegrade the muslims, if the muslims would attack only soldiers as they often do, they would still be named Terrorists. So what if someone calls you a terrorist, its an honor to terrorise the occupier. Palestine will be free from coast to coast, the price of freedom is death
Reply

muthenna
06-19-2007, 12:28 PM
One hadith from our messenger a.s. o muslims so that we are not cofused:
and from Salamah ibn Nufail al- who said:
" I was sitting with the Messenger of Allah a.s. when a man said: "Oh Messenger of Allah! The people have held on to the horses and laid down their weapons and said:'there is no Jihad for the war has laid down its burdens.' So the Messenger of Allah a.s. turned his face away and said:'they have lied. Now the time for fighting has come. There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah that fights upon the truth. Allah will deviate the hearts of some by way of them, and provide for them from them until the establishment of the hour and until the promise of Allah comes. Good shall remain in the manes of horses until the Day of Judgement. It has been revealed to me that I will die and not remain and that you all will follow up after me, aome striking the necks of others, and the base of the abode of the believers is in Sham(Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and part of Iraq)." -Sahih narrated by Nesai
Reply

Zman
06-19-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by muthenna
Hamas sends suicide bombers and israel sends apache helos so?!?!?!
:sl:

Exactly!

But, the fundamental difference is that the Apache helo is by far more destructive...
Reply

Keltoi
06-19-2007, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:

Exactly!

But, the fundamental difference is that the Apache helo is by far more destructive...
Who are those Apache helos targetting and why? Do you honestly believe Israel sends those choppers out to target children and women? None will deny that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, especially when you are dealing with an enemy who hides in civilian areas, but the major difference is that the suicide bomber is intentionally targetting women and children for death. Is the difference so subtle to you that you can't see a difference?
Reply

MTAFFI
06-19-2007, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Who are those Apache helos targetting and why? Do you honestly believe Israel sends those choppers out to target children and women? None will deny that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, especially when you are dealing with an enemy who hides in civilian areas, but the major difference is that the suicide bomber is intentionally targetting women and children for death. Is the difference so subtle to you that you can't see a difference?
I am sure it is seen but it seems that many have a hard time accepting it, as with almost every other dispicable act perpetrated by a so called "Muslim". The thing I think is so subtle that some cant see the difference, is the difference between real Muslims who practice their faith according to the Quran and Muslims who are Muslims just because they were born that way.
Reply

Goku
06-19-2007, 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Who are those Apache helos targetting and why? Do you honestly believe Israel sends those choppers out to target children and women? None will deny that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, especially when you are dealing with an enemy who hides in civilian areas, but the major difference is that the suicide bomber is intentionally targetting women and children for death. Is the difference so subtle to you that you can't see a difference?
And you know for sure Israel doesnt target innocent civilians? Whether they state they dont target them is irrelevant, the point is, innocents do get targetted and do get killed, need I remind you of the 1,200 innocent Lebanese people Israel killed in the war against Hezbollah, the latter group are still active and running.
Reply

MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 02:26 PM
i'm soooooo confuse....do we can honestly say israel just defending themselves all this times?...i mean really honest.

and do we can honestly say Hamas or palestinians is just mere terrorist wants only blood,death and destruction of israel, nothing more nothing less?

before 1948, do muslim and jews live together there,or they already separated?
Reply

Skywalker
06-19-2007, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Hamas is considered a terrorist group because they send suicide bombers to kill people in pizza parlors. If Hamas would have shown some sign that they were interested in a peaceful solution to the problem the international community would have reconsidered the economic assistance. If the only thing keeping the Palestinians afloat is international assistance, perhaps they should be more focused on making them happy....if not, why whine about it?
I'm with you there, they're not achieving anything by bombing restaurants or cafes, except making themselves and their religion look bad in front of the eyes the world. However, the question is: would the international community reconsider giving them financial assistance even if they promised to stop and actually stopped?

Originally Posted by Keltoi
Who are those Apache helos targetting and why? Do you honestly believe Israel sends those choppers out to target children and women? None will deny that innocent people get caught in the crossfire, especially when you are dealing with an enemy who hides in civilian areas, but the major difference is that the suicide bomber is intentionally targetting women and children for death.
This is true. We must first evaluate our actions and their actions before pointing fingers at one another. Israel is killing civilians, yes, but they're doing it under the pretense that they're attacking militants. Whether or not this is true is not for us to decide, but in the eyes of the international community their actions are "acceptable". As for Hamas, rarely targeted military installations and seemed to directly target civilans. This would definetely make the international community count that as "unacceptable".
Reply

MTAFFI
06-19-2007, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
And you know for sure Israel doesnt target innocent civilians?
How do you know who is a civilian and who is not?
Originally Posted by Goku
Whether they state they dont target them is irrelevant, the point is, innocents do get targetted and do get killed, need I remind you of the 1,200 innocent Lebanese people Israel killed in the war against Hezbollah, the latter group are still active and running.
This is why guerrilla warfare is such a cowardly and dispicable way to fight. Why blame Israel for killing civilians, you could just as easily blame those who fight amongst the civilians for getting them killed. You dont see Israeli soldiers hiding amongst their civilians, that is why so many less of them die. Palestine will never win their war, hezbollah would never have won their war, their enemy is superior in every aspect. Palestines only route for survival is to give up and concede defeat, reestablish borders and live in peace with its 40 year old neighbor. Who is to say that one day when they actually establish a military, infrastructure, economy, and a stable country that they cant go back to war with Israel if they want, all land has always been conquered by people, who says palestine couldnt do the same in 50 or 100 years? Take notice of what is being done, the longer they fight the less land they have, these militant groups give Israel every right to defend their country, once the palestinian militants stop Israel will have to stop
Reply

Zman
06-19-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
How do you know who is a civilian and who is not?

That's a good excuse when you plan on deliberately targeting everyone and hiding behind "collateral damage."

1. Here's an example of a deliberate act of targeting civilians:

About a year ago, Israel fired on beach-goers vacationing on a Gaza beach.

Of course, they produced their many lies, which were exposed for what they truly are.

2. Another was the massacre at Qana, Lebanon (twice). Israel claimed that Hizbullah fired from the village, and there were none there. They even had the audacity to target the UN observation team.

The UN team called them many times identifying themselves as the UN, but the bombardment continued.

3. Israeli targeted ambulances and civilian convoys in its last invasion of Lebanon.

It's amazing how Israel drops leaflets ordering the residents to evacuate the city before it commences firing, then when the civilians submit to their orders, Israel proceeds to bomb the convoy.

4. Israel also bombed Red Cross vehicles...
Reply

Amadeus85
06-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by MuhammadRizan
i'm soooooo confuse....do we can honestly say israel just defending themselves all this times?...i mean really honest.

and do we can honestly say Hamas or palestinians is just mere terrorist wants only blood,death and destruction of israel, nothing more nothing less?

before 1948, do muslim and jews live together there,or they already separated?

And do we can honestly say that Hamas "et consortes" want only peace, that they sleep in pink pyjamas with Bugs Bunny and that they know Kassam rockets from tv only ?
Reply

Skywalker
06-19-2007, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
Israel claimed that Hizbullah fired from the village, and there were none there.
Well the US did the same thing in Iraq. So if their big sister country can do it, why can't they? :P
Reply

MTAFFI
06-19-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

That's a good excuse when you plan on deliberately targeting everyone and hiding behind "collateral damage."

1. Here's an example of a deliberate act of targeting civilians:

About a year ago, Israel fired on beach-goers vacationing on a Gaza beach.

Of course, they produced their many lies, which were exposed for what they truly are.

2. Another was the massacre at Qana, Lebanon (twice). Israel claimed that Hizbullah fired from the village, and there were none there. They even had the audacity to target the UN observation team.

The UN team called them many times identifying themselves as the UN, but the bombardment continued.

3. Israeli targeted ambulances and civilian convoys in its last invasion of Lebanon.

It's amazing how Israel drops leaflets ordering the residents to evacuate the city before it commences firing, then when the civilians submit to their orders, Israel proceeds to bomb the convoy.

4. Israel also bombed Red Cross vehicles...

All of the above is either speculation or perhaps faults in Israeli operations, I am not approving of them, I am just saying that accidents happen or what you are saying may not be able to be proven (I dont know because you didnt provide any substance) Also what about the rest of my post, do you agree or disagree with it and why? Why only respond to the one liner that was in response to the same? I dont deny that Israel is not the goody two shoes it claims to be but I also do not deny that Hamas is either. Bottom line, if Hamas and any other militant Palestinians stopped attacking Israel, Israel in turn would also have to stop or face international sanctions and condemnation. Ever heard of the term "Live to fight another day"?
Reply

Zman
06-19-2007, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I am just saying that accidents happen or what you are saying may not be able to be proven (I dont know because you didnt provide any substance)

Those weren't "accidents."

How can they be accidental, when there were no military targets around?

I'll get you the links...
Reply

MTAFFI
06-19-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

Those weren't "accidents."

How can they be accidental, when there were no military targets around?

I'll get you the links...
Which leads me back to my original point, how does the press or anyone for that matter know who is a "military target"? I am not saying that what you are saying is incorrect, I am just playing the devils advocate, I mean we dont know the identities or the lives that any of the people killed lead, I cant imagine that a lot of vacationers want to visit this particular war torn place, please correct me if I am wrong.

**also again you didnt respond to the second half of my post
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 01:51 PM
Well, now that Al Qa3da have shown their support for Hamas and urged the entire Muslim ummah to stand up with Hamas, provide them with weapons, money, etc., to drive out the Israelis and the U.S., I'd just like to know what people's thoughts here are on the subject...

This thread's been pretty dead lately, let's see if we can get some good old controversy cooking in here :)
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Well, now that Al Qa3da have shown their support for Hamas and urged the entire Muslim ummah to stand up with Hamas, provide them with weapons, money, etc., to drive out the Israelis and the U.S., I'd just like to know what people's thoughts here are on the subject...

This thread's been pretty dead lately, let's see if we can get some good old controversy cooking in here :)

My thoughts on it are why would the Muslims of the world unite with a terrorist group like Al-Qaeda or Hamas? They do not abide by the teachings of the Quran or the Prophet (pbuh), they kill other Muslims who do not share their views (or really anyone who disagrees with them) and they are basically just all around disgusting people. Why would the ummah unite under such groups? Why would practicing Muslims fund such organizations that blatantly go against their beliefs? If Muslim were to unite under these misguided organizations, what do Muslims think that Allah would provide for them if they are not abiding by his book?
Reply

Trumble
06-25-2007, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Well, now that Al Qa3da have shown their support for Hamas and urged the entire Muslim ummah to stand up with Hamas, provide them with weapons, money, etc., to drive out the Israelis and the U.S., I'd just like to know what people's thoughts here are on the subject...
The old phrase "we will fight to the last drop of your blood" springs to mind.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 02:47 PM
Yes Trumble:

because Al Qaeda members are all at home making video nasties !?

Hilarious
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 02:48 PM
I think that Al Qa3da are pretty stupid, just like Hamas. Hamas might have good intentions in some cases (I personally give them much more respect than Al Qa3da), but their methods come off as quite foolish, as if they don't consider any long-term consequences of their actions. The same can be said about Al Qa3da, except without the good intentions.

I think the problem with Hamas is that they're too honest about what they want. They're not playing it politically like they should. From what I've seen from Hamas representatives, they seem good-natured, but for some reason don't condemn the actions of their military wings nor do they admit that they don't have control over them. Hamas showed amnesty to the Fatah members after their victory, they also said that they were gonna try to free Alan Johnston from the hands of that one militant group, plus they came on TV numerous times with messages that seemed positive, but too honest for politics. So this has left me a little puzzled.

Either way, Al Qa3da have proven themselves to me to be not only stupid and inhuman, but also one of the current enemies of Islam. I would never ally myself with them nor would I encourage anyone else to do so, no matter how noble their cause might seem. Their belief system is whacked, they have strayed from Islam and their beliefs have become twisted into...something else. I don't think that there is a single organization on this planet that has Islam down to the point that I would consider allying myself with them. The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt is close, but they're not 100% either. At least they're playing it smart and trying to do what they can diplomatically (unfortunately for them in a completely un-diplomatic country) instead of militarily. Hezbullah has also shown that they can be smart and diplomatic, and strong at the same time. Sure they've done some stupid things, but overall I think they're alright. If they worked harder on education and economy and not only focused on the political aspects of Islam, I think they could really do some good.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 02:52 PM
How have they strayed from Islam?
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 03:18 PM
How have they not? The fact that they use suicide attacks is one. Other than that, Islam teaches us tolerance and living in peace with our non-Muslim neighbours, and has never OK'ed the killing of civilians, which Al Qa3da are totally OK with (at least going by what we see on TV and given the fact that Al Qa3da actually exists and is not some kind of conspiracy). How is terrorizing innocent civilians for political purposes Islamic? Please provide me with any scriptural reference for this.

I know that the US is a sick country bent on globalization of their morals and culture, and not to mention their insane foreign policies, but look at the reality of the situation. They're the current superpower, so it's their right. It would be stupid to attack them militarily, because all you'll be doing is making the world see you as the bad guy, the evil scourge that must be eliminated. How does that help Islam? But should we sit back and let them do what they want with us? Heck no, but there are ways of fighting them "in style", instead of killing their civilians. They make a movie with their morals and feed it to your children, you teach your children that it's wrong and then you make one with our morals and feed it to theirs. Persist in what you're doing like they're doing now, and eventually they'll stop. Not all struggles are physical, and the hardest of them are not.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
H

This is why guerrilla warfare is such a cowardly and dispicable way to fight.
Nonsense. Absolute rubbish.

What is so "brave" about the pilots of the Apache helicopters? They know Palestinians weapons cannot reach them. Is this bravery?

LOL @ Cowardly.
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
Nonsense. Absolute rubbish.

What is so "brave" about the pilots of the Apache helicopters? They know Palestinians weapons cannot reach them. Is this bravery?

LOL @ Cowardly.
What is so brave? I have heard of several of these choppers getting taken down and guess what they werent accompanied by innocent civilians, women or children. They arent hiding, they are right out in the open and showing exactly what side they are on and what they are fighting for rather than passing their enemy and then shooting them in the back like a coward would. Say what you want but it takes a lot of bravery to go into a foreign country that hates you, and try to police it without knowing who you are even fighting against. It takes a real coward to hide like a roach in crowds and then kill your enemy and everyone else around him, whether they are with or against you and whether they are old, young, man or woman.
LOL @ cheap cowardly guerrilla warfare
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:07 PM
So you have to be brave to press a button on your joypad via your $5M Apache Helicopter?

By this same logic those 19 men who flew into the WTC and Pentagon must be really brave :)

And another thing - America has been killing innocent people for centuries. Lets not go there.

America is the biggest terrorist
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:10 PM
"The media and politicians call what happened terrorism. This is a propagandistic rather than a descriptive term and replaces the more useful traditional phrases, guerilla action or guerilla warfare. The former places a mythical shroud around the event while the latter depicts its true nature. Guerillas do not play by the rules of state organization or military tactics. This does not make them cowardly, as some have suggested, but can make them fiendishly clever.

The essence of guerilla warfare is to attack at times and places unsuspected and return to places unknown. You can not invade the land of guerillas, you can not bomb them out of existence, you can not overwhelm them with your technological wonders."

http://www.greeninstitute.net/press....104&cat_id=32&
Reply

Zman
06-25-2007, 04:23 PM
:sl:

This is why guerrilla warfare is such a cowardly and dispicable way to fight.
According to the above statement, the following must be considered cowards & dispicable, also:

1. The many European reistance organizations who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazis.

2. Our OSS & SOE, who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazi's.

3. Merrills Marauders, who used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese in South East Asia.

4. Our own Special Operators (Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, Delta Force), the SAS/SBS/Royal marine Commandos, etc, who were trained in and train forces of friendly nations in guerrilla warfare.

5. The American & Philippino troops who stayed behind and used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese occupation of the Philippines.

6. Our founding fathers who used guerrilla warfare against the Bristish Empire.

7. Our CIA paramilitary teams who entered Afghanistan & Iraq.

8. The Jews of pre-1948 Israeli independence who used guerrilla tactics against the British Mandate & the Palestinians.
Reply

Amadeus85
06-25-2007, 04:25 PM
I think the problem with Hamas is that they're too honest about what they want. They're not playing it politically like they should. From what I've seen from Hamas representatives, they seem good-natured, but for some reason don't condemn the actions of their military wings nor do they admit that they don't have control over them. Hamas showed amnesty to the Fatah members after their victory, they also said that they were gonna try to free Alan Johnston from the hands of that one militant group, plus they came on TV numerous times with messages that seemed positive, but too honest for politics. So this has left me a little puzzled.
So you think that Hamas' goals are ok? This organization wants to wipe off Israel from the Middle East. And Hamas doesnt have military wing. Hamas is a military wing.

.
I don't think that there is a single organization on this planet that has Islam down to the point that I would consider allying myself with them. The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt is close, but they're not 100% either. At least they're playing it smart and trying to do what they can diplomatically (unfortunately for them in a completely un-diplomatic country) instead of militarily
.
Hamas is the palestinian wing of Muslim Brotherhood, so Mb supports terrorists actually.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:29 PM
Israel is a Terrorist state which has a;ready wiped Palestine off the map (except 22%) and does not recognise the democraticly elected Hamas

:)

Soundbites are easy fella - Bring the proof
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
So you have to be brave to press a button on your joypad via your $5M Apache Helicopter?
No you have to be brave to go to war and fight your enemy while showing your face, you have to be brave to put your life on the line everyday while you stand, fly, drive, etc. in the open in enemy territory in uniform distinguishing yourself from everyone else, to make sure that if the enemy does target you he is targeting you because you are his enemy and making no mistake that you may be a civilian

Originally Posted by abumusa
By this same logic those 19 men who flew into the WTC and Pentagon must be really brave :)
It is interesting to me that you would put a smiley next to such an unislamic act of violence. It is one thing to kill in war or die in war, but to take innocent people hostage on a plane, lie to them and then murder them and 3000 other unsuspecting people is a whole other thing. The logic is not at all the same and it is very interesting that you could somehow relate the two just because they both involve flying

Originally Posted by abumusa
And another thing - America has been killing innocent people for centuries. Lets not go there.
Tell me what civilization could not be accused of this, every country and people have ugly things they would like to conceal or go back and remove from their history

Originally Posted by abumusa
America is the biggest terrorist
Really? That is rather funny, I will admit that the current administration is not a highlight in US history, and some of the recent war crimes and ways that things have been handled during this war are a stain on our country and it will take time to rebuild the US image, but we are certainly not terrorists. More aid comes from the US than anywhere in the world, when people need medicine, food, education, etc. who do they turn too? Not the M.E., not anywhere else in fact other than the US it seems. You are welcome to attack the US gov. and the people in it and the policies if you dont like them, but dont forget what brought it to this point. We didnt ask for 9/11, we didnt ask for numerous embassy bombings they happened and now there is retaliation. There are terrorists both here in the US and the middle east, but here is the kicker, these terrorists do not represent america nor do they represent Islam, they represent the evil of mankind as a whole, and just because they may claim to be Muslim or American does not make them so, and just because they claim to be is no reason to support them.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:39 PM
How many "innocent" people in the Pentagon?
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
So you think that Hamas' goals are ok? This organization wants to wipe off Israel from the Middle East. And Hamas doesnt have military wing. Hamas is a military wing.

..
Hamas is the palestinian wing of Muslim Brotherhood, so Mb supports terrorists actually.
I never said that the Brotherhood is the best, nor did I say that I would ally myself with them, however, the Brotherhood is not responsible for all the actions of Hamas. It's my belief that they support them mainly for their ideals. How do we know that they fully support their methods and every single attack they've done?

Secondly, Hamas is NOT just a military wing. This is from Wikipedia:

"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:46 PM
Listen i find it hard to tell people under occupation for over 5o years not to this and that.

Also Skywalker the Quran asks us to give them benefit of doubt.

So dont be hasty with your "im not allied with them" stuff.

Not that they will lose sleep over it :)
Reply

Keltoi
06-25-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
I never said that the Brotherhood is the best, nor did I say that I would ally myself with them, however, the Brotherhood is not responsible for all the actions of Hamas. It's my belief that they support them mainly for their ideals. How do we know that they fully support their methods and every single attack they've done?

Secondly, Hamas is NOT just a military wing. This is from Wikipedia:

"Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Looks like they took a page out of Hezbollah's playbook. Make the local population dependant on you, and use them to shield themselves when the inevitable retaliation occurs. Not saying many of these programs aren't done from a charitable standpoint, but the end result is the same.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:


According to the above statement, the following must be considered cowards & dispicable, also:

1. The many European reistance organizations who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazis.

2. Our OSS & SOE, who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazi's.

3. Merrills Marauders, who used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese in South East Asia.

4. Our own Special Operators (Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, Delta Force), the SAS/SBS/Royal marine Commandos, etc, who were trained in and train forces of friendly nations in guerrilla warfare.

5. The American & Philippino troops who stayed behind and used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese occupation of the Philippines.

6. Our founding fathers who used guerrilla warfare against the Bristish Empire.

7. Our CIA paramilitary teams who entered Afghanistan & Iraq.

8. The Jews of pre-1948 Israeli independence who used guerrilla tactics against the British Mandate & the Palestinians.
MTAFFI - No response to this?

Brother Zman just showed American Hypocrisy
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Looks like they took a page out of Hezbollah's playbook. Make the local population dependant on you, and use them to shield themselves when the inevitable retaliation occurs. Not saying many of these programs aren't done from a charitable standpoint, but the end result is the same.
Let's say that they providing the population with food and services but have their own agenda. So what? Don't all governments in the world do this? At least Hamas are upfront about it -- they don't want Israel to exist, and they want the people that they are helping to help them in the fight. Maybe their upfrontness is their undoing in this case, but nevertheless people are receiving aid from someone. Not that I support most of their military activities but at least they're helping the people, which like I said before makes me give them a whole lot of respect more than organizations like Al Qa3da.

Here's a question to those opposed to Hamas: if they didn't fire another kassam rocket and stopped all suicide bombings, would your view of them remain the same or would it differ and how?
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:


According to the above statement, the following must be considered cowards & dispicable, also:

1. The many European reistance organizations who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazis.

2. Our OSS & SOE, who used guerrilla warfare against the Nazi's.

3. Merrills Marauders, who used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese in South East Asia.

4. Our own Special Operators (Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, Delta Force), the SAS/SBS/Royal marine Commandos, etc, who were trained in and train forces of friendly nations in guerrilla warfare.

5. The American & Philippino troops who stayed behind and used guerrilla tactics against the Japanese occupation of the Philippines.

6. Our founding fathers who used guerrilla warfare against the Bristish Empire.

7. Our CIA paramilitary teams who entered Afghanistan & Iraq.

8. The Jews of pre-1948 Israeli independence who used guerrilla tactics against the British Mandate & the Palestinians.
The difference with all of these and the people that are fighting in Iraq and Afghan is simple, these people that you are speaking of did not attack at the cost of civilian lives, and in most cases they were groups of fighters the whole war wasnt fought on the premise of anonymously blowing yourself up in a group of people to kill one soldier. Let me be more descript for you when I say guerrilla warefare, the TYPE of guerrilla warefare that is used in Iraq, Afghan and Palestine is cowardly, on a daily basis civilian nearly several dozen lives are lost because of the way it is fought by the cowards and there is no honor in that.
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
How many "innocent" people in the Pentagon?
how about the janitors, the receptionists, the typists, and basically anyone else who is just performing a job rather than making the decisions that upset people, do you know of one high level or high ranking official that actually died at the pentagon that day? It was the secretaries that paid the price
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 06:27 PM
Sorry I didn't notice this...

Originally Posted by abumusa
Listen i find it hard to tell people under occupation for over 5o years not to this and that.

Also Skywalker the Quran asks us to give them benefit of doubt.

So dont be hasty with your "im not allied with them" stuff.

Not that they will lose sleep over it
Don't worry bro, I didn't mean to imply that I would never join them under any circumstance, but that I wouldn't be hasty in joining them either. Before joining a group (if ever), I'd like to know their goals, their ideals, their actions, and their history. If one of those is not Islamic, for example sending out suicide bombers against civilians, I think it would actually be a sin to ally yourself with them. Allahu 3alam.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
how about the janitors, the receptionists, the typists, and basically anyone else who is just performing a job rather than making the decisions that upset people, do you know of one high level or high ranking official that actually died at the pentagon that day? It was the secretaries that paid the price
Well first of all i do not support any activities against innocent people. Simply im discussing a topic. i.e. debate.

For this questions its a etiquette of war unfortunately. If you agree there are two enemies and one enemy strikes at anothers military HQ - that's surely a valid target under Shariah terms (the law of one side).

The same logic applies to the innocent people in that medical factory (Sudan), or the carpet bombing (Afghanistan). Have you ever seen a cluster bomb in action? These american bombs destroy whole villages for goodness sake.

Collateral damage? One rule for them another for us!

"We have sent down to you the message that you may explain clearly to people what has been sent to them, and that they think over it. " [al-Qur'âan 16:44]
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
Well first of all i do not support any activities against innocent people. Simply im discussing a topic. i.e. debate.

For this questions its a etiquette of war unfortunately. If you agree there are two enemies and one enemy strikes at anothers military HQ - that's surely a valid target under Shariah terms (the law of one side).

The same logic applies to the innocent people in that medical factory (Sudan), or the carpet bombing (Afghanistan). Have you ever seen a cluster bomb in action? These american bombs destroy whole villages for goodness sake.

Collateral damage? One rule for them another for us!

"We have sent down to you the message that you may explain clearly to people what has been sent to them, and that they think over it. " [al-Qur'âan 16:44]
War is a messy thing, and there is really no good that can come of it. As for the pentagon, it is a far better target than say the twin towers at least it is an attack like you said on a "military" headquarters, but I still dont see the benefit in that attack. To me war should be fought on a battlefield not in peoples homes and place of work. Casualties are to be expected in war, you cannot condemn every accidental civilian death that is caused by war, the thing that bothers me is the huge number of civilians that are happening. Fighting in city streets, blowing up markets, ramming planes into buildings, launching rockets at just random targets, destroying mosques or places of worship these things are not attacks against another country and it government or foreign policies, these area attacks against the people of that country. It breeds incredible quantities of hatred, Islam is a wonderful religion and the Quran contains a wealth of knowledge, but because of the way this war has been waged by the so called "Militant Islam" groups has spawned hatred for Muslims, whereas if these groups fought with bravery and dignity (ie only killed, or only tried to kill military personel) they would get a whole other image and wouldnt be so widely hated. For every attack made on civilian targets, it just makes those who do it look more and more evil, and since they claim everything they do is based on their religion, the image of Islam becomes tarnished with them
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 08:05 PM
whereas if these groups fought with bravery and dignity (ie only killed, or only tried to kill military personel) they would get a whole other image
Many do this even until today. Dont let the media magnify one or two acts by inidivduals.

Look how Beslan disgraced Chechnya. The Mujahideen fight russian oopression daily for years yet after Beslan they have been maligned and tarnished.

America cannot be completely judged as evil based on Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo bay (drops in ocean) then surely the same applies both ways?
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
Many do this even until today. Dont let the media magnify one or two acts by inidivduals.

Look how Beslan disgraced Chechnya. The Mujahideen fight russian oopression daily for years yet after Beslan they have been maligned and tarnished.

America cannot be completely judged as evil based on Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo bay (drops in ocean) then surely the same applies both ways?
It absolutely is a two way street, the actions of a few can absolutely not be used to judge a country or a religion as a whole. However with groups like Al-Qaeda and their subsidiaries, if you will, commit atrocities daily, it is not a few actions it is a daily occurance. I do not even associate them with Islam anymore even though most ignorant people would since they use their religion to justify their violence, which is what the problem is... The average Joe doesnt know or try to distinguish the difference, he hears 3 things, Middle east, Al Qaeda and Muslim.

But as for Muslims, well true Muslims do not behave as Hamas or Al-Qaeda do, true Muslims follow the Quran and its teachings and live in peace with the rest of the world. True Muslims can see the obvious lack of guidance that these groups have and how far they have strayed from the very beliefs they claim they are trying to "protect"
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 08:43 PM
I agree to a point BUT:

"Concerning nonviolence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." X
Reply

MTAFFI
06-25-2007, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
I agree to a point BUT:

"Concerning nonviolence, it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks." X
No doubt

But at this point, in this part of the world, who really knows who is on offense or defense? Palestine launches rockets Israel retaliates, Israel bulldozes houses, Palestine retaliates. The war has gone on for so long, I dont think there is really an offensive or defensive side, I think they both just take whatever chance they can get to kill the other.

With that said I will say I havent heard of any Israeli attacks since all this has been going on, and that may have something to do with the lack of mortar attacks since the Palestinians have been preoccupied.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 08:54 PM
How can you compare the losses on both sides?

Has anybody seen Gaza on a map compared to Israel? Then think of the populations.

Its a modern day concentration camp.
Reply

wilberhum
06-25-2007, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
How can you compare the losses on both sides?

Has anybody seen Gaza on a map compared to Israel? Then think of the populations.

Its a modern day concentration camp.
Do you want to compare losses and map size, or do you want peace?
Reply

Skywalker
06-25-2007, 09:11 PM
Haha, I beat MTAFFI to it!!!

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Al-Qaida was looming increasingly large in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Monday: The al-Qaida-inspired kidnappers of a BBC journalist released their captive's anguished plea, while the terror network's deputy chief urged Muslims everywhere to back Hamas with weapons, money and attacks on Israeli and U.S. targets.

Al-Qaida's clearest overture yet put Hamas in a bind. Hamas is in urgent need of outside help to provide for Gaza's 1.4 million Palestinians, following its mid-June takeover of the territory. Yet Hamas would deepen its international isolation, burn bridges to much of the Arab world and lose more popular support at home if it forms an open alliance with al-Qaida.

Hamas leaders suggested they will steer clear of al-Qaida, in line with the movement's long-standing position to focus on the conflict with Israel and not to join an international jihad, or holy war
(looks like someone doesn't have their Islamic definitions down right...:D). Al-Qaida "is not the frame of reference for Hamas," said a senior Hamas official, Ahmed Yousef. "We have our own Muslim scholars, political leaders and military commanders who give us a strategy on how to deal with the (Israeli) occupation."(I hope they stick to this...)

Al-Qaida's presence in the Palestinian territories has been a subject of intense speculation since the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States
(what a surprise). Palestinian intelligence officials believe the group has formed some sleeper cells in Gaza and suspect possible al-Qaida involvement in several spectacular attacks on Palestinian security chiefs since 2004.

As early as 2003, an Israeli military court sentenced a Gaza man to 27 years in prison on charges he was recruited by al-Qaida in Afghanistan to form a network in the Palestinian territories.

Several al-Qaida-inspired groups have sprung up, including the so-called Army of Islam, which seized BBC journalist Alan Johnston in March
(it's also worth mentioning that one of the first things that Hamas said when they took over Gaza was that they were planning on negotiating with this group to accelerate Alan's release) and was also involved in the capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit a year ago. Another group, the Sword of Islamic Justice, has bombed dozens of Internet and music shops to halt what it said was the spread of corrupt Western culture.

It appears these local groups, which have adopted al-Qaida jargon and symbols, are angling for support from al-Qaida, rather than being directed by it. "Most of the fighters (in Gaza) are local people who identify with al-Qaida, as opposed to real al-Qaida operatives, like we see in Iraq," said Hillel Frisch, an Israeli counterterrorism expert.

The groups consist largely of former Hamas followers, who broke away when Hamas started trying to transform itself into a political party and was no longer deemed radical enough.
(this obviously means that Hamas does not share Al Qa3da's ideaology, but people fall into their traps all the time. Vengeance, lack of Islamic guidance, all these things contribute to people's fall to ... the Dark Side if you will :D)

In Paris, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the response to al-Qaida is to back moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who is locked in a power struggle with Hamas, and to send humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. "Extremism in the Middle East, and unfortunately in the Palestinian territories continues, and extremists link up with extremists," she said.
(Typical, showing no discrimination)

In Johnston's case, the conflicting interests of Hamas and the Army of Islam became apparent this month. Hamas was pressing for Johnston's quick release, to try to reassure the international community after the Gaza takeover that it can rule and restore stability
(see, told ya!). However, the kidnappers held out for assurances that they won't have to disarm after they free the journalist.

The kidnappers released a video showing Johnston wearing what he described as a harness of explosives strapped to his body, of the type used by suicide bombers.
(Oh yeah, that's real Islamic...:?)

"Captors tell me that very promising negotiations were ruined when the Hamas movement and the British government decided to press for a military solution to this kidnapping," Johnston says in the recording, looking nervous and under stress.

"And the situation is now very serious, as you can see," he said, appealing to Britain and Hamas to resume negotiations.

Several hours later, the captors of Shalit released an audio message to mark the anniversary of his seizure at an army post near Gaza. Shalit appealed to the Israeli government to do more to win his freedom, saying his health is deteriorating
(that wouldn't be the case if he was is the hands of real Muslims). Egyptian-brokered negotiations over Shalit's release have broken down repeatedly.

The audio was posted on the Web site of the Hamas military wing, affirming that Hamas is the lead group among the kidnappers. However, the Army of Islam would have any say in any possible deal for Shalit's release.

Al-Qaida has repeatedly expressed support for the Palestinians, but Monday's audio by its deputy chief, Ayman al-Zawahri, was unusual because he offered practical assistance, and Hamas for the first time was in a position to seriously consider it.
(don't do it!!)

"Provide them (Hamas) with money, do your best to get it there, break the siege imposed on them by crusaders and Arab leader traitors," said al-Zawahri, who is Osama bin Laden's top deputy, addressing Muslims around the world. "Facilitate weapons smuggling from neighboring countries."

"We can support them by targeting the crusader and Zionist interest wherever we can," al-Zawahri said.
(The Crusades were about 800 years ago, where's he been?)

His message appeared aimed at exploiting Hamas' gains and could fuel fears among Arab countries that Gaza will become a breeding ground for armed extremists.

However, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri suggested that his group values its relations with the Arab world more than anything al-Qaida could offer. "In Hamas, we are concerned to have good relations with all Arab and Muslim powers, regardless of how close or far away we are in our own programs," he said.

Still, quiet cooperation between some Gaza militants and al-Qaida is increasingly possible. Smuggling tunnels run under the Gaza-Egypt border, and al-Zawahri specifically called on Bedouins in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula — implicated in three major attacks since 2004 and heavily involved in smuggling — to help Hamas.


Interesting...
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Do you want to compare losses and map size, or do you want peace?
"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." X
Reply

wilberhum
06-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by abumusa
"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." X
Oh so true. Something we totally agree on. :thumbs_up
As you said "You can’t separate peace from freedom". The way to freedom is peace.
Reply

abumusa
06-25-2007, 09:22 PM
:) Yes we agree
Reply

Zman
06-26-2007, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The way to freedom is peace.
That wasn't the path chosen by our founding fathers, nor bt the Jews when they took Palestine, nor the European's who were under Nazi occupation, etc.

Unfortunately, one of the major tennets of international affairs is that "diplomacy is for the weak," and "the powerful take by force from the weak,"or "don't ask for what you cannot take."

In an ideal world, your statement would have been great, but, this isn't a ideal world...

Reply

MTAFFI
06-26-2007, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Skywalker
Haha, I beat MTAFFI to it!!!

...
you animal!

lol
Reply

Idris
06-26-2007, 12:08 PM
Al-Qaida appears to me like a smoke screen. Anywhere Muslims are fighting oppression al-Qaida is connected to it. From Gaza to Somalia… after 7 years of this war on “al-qaida” who is winning? Looks to me “Al-Qaida” is…they are everywhere, by the way where is Osama bin Laden?
Reply

Skywalker
06-26-2007, 01:00 PM
That's exactly what the US wanted to achieve and they've done it. Through this 'war on terror' or just plain 'war on Al Qa3da', they have created their own definitions of 'terrorist', 'extremist', and have even invented brilliant new terms like 'jihadist'. lol

Al Qa3da is America's excuse to do whatever they want in the Muslim world.

Originally Posted by MTAFFI
you animal!

lol
I'm bad, I know :D
Reply

Zman
06-26-2007, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
Al-Qaida appears to me like a smoke screen. Anywhere Muslims are fighting oppression al-Qaida is connected to it. From Gaza to Somalia… after 7 years of this war on “al-qaida” who is winning? Looks to me “Al-Qaida” is…they are everywhere, by the way where is Osama bin Laden?
:sl:

Everyone We Fight In Iraq, Is Now Al Qaeda

Via:
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot...is-now-al.html
Reply

abumusa
06-26-2007, 02:24 PM
Zman,

BarakAllah feek very good link
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-04-2012, 03:29 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-20-2011, 02:00 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-20-2009, 09:54 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-09-2009, 07:36 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!