format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Can anyone please tell me your thoughts on this: Why were the Sunnah and Hadith created in the first place? Why did scholars find it necessary to write up to 50 volumes of Hadith to help us understand a single book of God's work? It just doesn't make sense to me. Bear in mind I am a non-muslim however I have read through the Quran in Engligh so perhaps there are some Arabic words that cannot be described by the English language but anyway here goes:
Before the quotations, I wanted to point out that the Sunnah and hadith were not created as you put it. The Sunnah, meaning the way or path was just that, the path or way of Muhammad, peace be upon him, thus it was not created or thought up by some men.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
God told the believers that His book, the Quran is a complete and fully detailed text (6:19,114, & 12:111)
Exactly, and one of the things the book contains is commands to refer back to the Messenger peace be upon him, so this full explanation the Qu'ran speaks of includes reffering to the way of the Prophet. Many verses speak of following Allah AND His Messenger, one being;
And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allāh. Verily, Allāh is Severe in punishment.
This is part of a verse talking about booty and so forth, and this last part is clear, what the Messenger gives us take it and what he forbids leave it, so to know what he gives us or forbids and rulings as such we need to know what he told us.
With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ān), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.
So part of explanation of the Qu'ran is given to us by Muhammad, peace be upon him, 'that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them'
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
God only needed the Quran to spread his message he did not need other books or messages otherwise they would have been given to Mohammed to dictate. He does not run out of words or information. See 18:109 and 31:27.
This point is invalid, you are presuming things, God only needed the Qu'ran otherwise he would have given another book to Muhammad, but this is implyin that you know God's plan, that He would have given another book. As for the Quotation then those serve no purpose within this point at all.
[QUOTE=Spartan;742671]Other quotes from the Quran on Hadith:
"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6
"Then in what statement after it(Quran) will they believe?"77:50
"Let them produce a Hadith like this ( I.e Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34
"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this Hadith(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44
I understand that it is important to obey the prophets words as they are gods words as dictated to him but there are numerous surah which state that it is the ONLY message of Muhammed.
4:105, 18:27 tells me that the only message of Muhammed is God's message as dictated to him.
Surely, We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ān) in truth that you might judge between men by that which Allāh has shown you (i.e. has taught you through Divine Inspiration), so be not a pleader for the treacherous. (An-Nisa 4:105)
And recite what has been revealed to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Book (the Qur'ān) of your Lord (i.e. recite it, understand and follow its teachings and act on its orders and preach it to men). None can change His Words, and none will you find as a refuge other than Him. (Al-Kahf 18:27)
Where does it say that? All the above quotations you gave are speaking of the Qu'ran as something we need to believe in but do not limit it to that, since those who follow the Sunnah believe it is a revelation in its own right. For example you quote 68:44 which is totally inaplicable to this topic since noone here rejects Qu'ran. 52:34 you quoted but this is speaking to people who claim the Qu'ran is nto the word of God:
Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Qur'ān)?" Nay! They believe not! (At-Tur 52:33)
Again this is nothing to do with those who believe the Sunnah is inspired. I urge you to please identify the verses. Just because Allah uses the word Hadith does not mean it is talkin about the Hadith of Muhammad.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The only book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.
This is incorrect, when muhammad died he had left the Qu'ran in various places of animal skin and so on and in people's hearts, and he had also left the rulings and explanations of things, he had left the way to pray for people, the way to fight, the way to fast, the way to marry and so forth, all these things he done as religious matters were part of him explaining the Qur'an and were all part of our religion.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
In addition I read on Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry and it is reported that Muhammed said: "Do not write anything from me other than the Quran. Anything else shall be destroyed."
There are numerous others who say pretty much the same thing: Zayd Ibn Thabit, Ibn Al-Salah, Abu Hurayra, Ibn Hanbal are some of them.
I doubt Abu Hurayra had the opinion not to write statements an rulings of our Prophet, since Abu Hurayra I believe gave his permission, but even if they said not to write it down then it is not saying do no memorise it, and what you fail to realise is that Abu Hurayra narrated a tremendous amount of hadith himself, as for the issue of writing down, there is an article on load-islam which I am sure someone will post, and this is understood that noone should write Qur'an and Hadith on the same paper when the Quran was being revealed lest one of them will get confused and mix the two.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Is it not true that Muhammed without the Quran is just another human being like us and isn't obeying the messenger on the condition that he must have a message? (i.e the Quran). Producing Hadith and Sunnah in my opinion is the same as elevating Muhammed to the status of a messiah or God. It is like classifying the messenger is an independent power to be obeyed apart from God.
No, since Muhammad is the messenger he is representative of God's religion, do you think Muhammad prayed the way he wanted without him being guided by God? If you say Yes, that the way Muhammad prayed is his own doing then you are claiming he is a maker of part of the religion thus making him equal to God! And if you say no Muhammad did not make it up God told him, then it is only our job to follow what God told Muhammad to do.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Did Muhammad the messenger not pronounce and act outside the Quran? It is only too obvious that he did and must have done so. After all he was human, and if he were human why is it we must find a reason to follow HIM as opposed to his message? "Say, (O Muhammed) "I am no more than a human being like you...." 18:110
What is the verse speaking of?
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your Ilāh (God) is One Ilāh (God i.e. Allāh). So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord." (Al-Kahf 18:110)
So it's not just like that, he, Muhammad, peace be upon him, recieved inspiration in both the Qur'an and his actions, thus it is for us to follow both, you seem to think that following his Sunnah is in opposition to following his message, but His Message encompasses the Sunnah!! His message from God was the Qur'an and Sunnah!
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
For example if a researcher finds that alchohol produces a deadly cancer yet because he is fond of a particular drink (wine lets say) he still consumes a little of it every night. Does that give people who are health conscious an excuse to have a little every night just because the researcher is having it? It is the same thing with the messenger and Islam.
It is not because the researcher isnt a representative, for example, what would be more suitable, is that if the researcher is working for a company a higher authority, and that company was trustworthy then it would be normal to assume that what ever this researcher done in his work, the company his higher authority was ok with it, unless they rebuked him.
Simiarly, Muhammad, peace be upon him, was working for a higher authority, thus anything Muhammad as a representative of God done which God didnt like God would have dealt with it, lest people would think this is part of the religion.
Someone please provide the verse where Allah says that if Muhammad had lied then Allah would sieze him.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
From what I have been told `hadith' is used in the Quran to mean `news', `story', `message' or `thing'. Out of the 36 times it is used in various grammatical forms, none refers to what is known as the "Prophetic" hadith (i.e Hadith created by the Prophet or by other people on behalf of the Prophet) as another source of law beside the Quran. In fact, in 10 different statements the word refers to the Quran and categorically rejects any hadith besides the Quran.
Post all those type of verses and I have a feeling we find them challangeing people who do not believe in the Qu'ran.
Indeed in the Messenger of Allāh (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allāh and the Last Day and remembers Allāh much. (Al-Ahzab 33:21)
Many other verse make it clear that we are to follow the messenger, but not only that but common sense makes it clear that we should follow the Messenger.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
This is not to say that the creators of the hadith were conspirators or fabricators. However I'm sure everyone has heard of the game "chinese whispers" and even students of elementary psychology can testify that a simple message for example 10 words become changed and altered even after passing through just half a dozen messengers.
It is with that in mind that the whole science of Mustalah came into being. We dont just accept anything you know.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Bear in mind that that there are thousands upon thousands of Hadith more than just 10 words long but detailed and complex. They passed through hundreds of miles over hundreds of years in a land with few literate scribes and few materials to write on. It's easy to say "they were meticulous and careful in their examination of quotes from the messenger", but NO ONE can say for certain that changes were not made whether conscious or not.
I do not know what you would ascribe certainity to but if one follows logic and probability then one can be certain that the bad hadith have been rooted out and the religion is thus still with us today.
I don't know about few literate scribes though, I wonder where you got that from.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Finally there are numerous Hadith's which very much contradict the Quran. Here are some great examples:
The prophets miracles:
There are quite a few hadiths that quote many miracles performed by the Prophet. Yet according to the Quran the Prophet did not perform any miracles. The only miracle given to the Prophet was the Quran itself, as witness the verse:
"They said, `How come no miracles were sent to him from his Lord?' Say, `Miracles come only from God, and I am no more than a warner'. Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scripture, which is being recited to them? Indeed, it is a mercy and a message for those who believe."
Are you sure? This is the Qu'ran quoting non believers, you know what they say about the Qu'ran nowdays? If we go by their logic then there's no point in believing anything. And this verse says 'is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scritpture' this is clear, the Qu'ran itself is enough of a miracle. I could cook all week, and on friday make your favouirate dinner, and you ask me to cook next week, and I say 'Isnt it enough for you that I made you your favouraite?' which wouldnt mean that I just done that and nothing else, but I singled that meal out because it was the best, just as the Qu'ran is the best of Miracles.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Punishment for Apostasy
The hadith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. "If anyone leaves his religion, then kill him." (Bukhari and Abu Daud) The Quran, on the other hand, makes no provision for the killing of apostates. Verse 5:54 states:
"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion, then God will bring people whom He loves as they love Him, and humble themselves towards the believers, while being stern towards the disbelievers; and strive in the cause of God; and never worry about any blamer who might blame them. Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills. God is bounteous, omniscient."
This doesnt mention anything neither for or against the hadith.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Verse 2:256 affirms complete freedom of religious belief.
This doesnt mention the person who has embraced then left, rather this verse could be and can be seen as that noone can be forced into the religion, why? Because the truth stands clear from falsehood.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Anti-logic and rationality
While the Quran insists that we use our minds to think, some hadith falsely allege that humans can never think. "Jundub reported that the Messenger of God said, `Whoever interprets the Quran using his own intellect, even if the interpretation is correct, he is committing a grievous sin.' " (Tirmidhi and Abu Daud)
Please bring forth all the verses about using your mind, you will find most of them deal with Allah speaking to disbelievers about the universal signs of Allah, like surah 21:30:
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Al-Anbiya 21:30)
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
As is my understanding, when Prophet Muhammad died, he left with us only the Quran * and nothing but the Quran * as a guidance for Muslims.
Actually since the Sunnah is the acts and ways of Muhammad he left them the Qu'ran and Sunnah. Furthermore he warned them to stick to both.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Moreover, the Quran pronounced this fact as well when God stated several times that the function of the messenger was only to deliver the message. Verse 92 of Sura 5 is one of them.
And his sunnah was part of the message, this is what your failing to see. The Message was the religion of Islam, and the religion of Islam is found inthe Quran and the Sunnah.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Spartan
Nevertheless is seems to me Muslim society between 200-250 years after the death of the Prophet, through their religious scholars built a new doctrine to the effect that the Prophet has left them the Quran and the hadith and that they must hold on to both.
Wrong, hadith were used by the people when Muhammad died, rulings and so forth given out as Muhammad gave them,what happend 250 years after was the major compilation of these hadith. Before hand there were compilations and hadith were used.
A very tiring and long reply I hope it is fruitful.