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Keltoi
05-22-2007, 12:33 AM
I'm sure most of the Muslims on this forum are familiar with this verse from the Quran...

[7.157] those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet,
whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law
and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids
them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and
pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure);
He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes
that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour
him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,-
it is they who will prosper."

I came upon this and sort of confused me. Of course this is Allah's response to the prayer of Moses. Two quick questions.

1. How could Moses know about the Injil(Gospel) when it wasn't written until 1400 years later?

2. Where in the Torah or the Gospel does it make mention of an "unlettered prophet"?
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جوري
05-22-2007, 03:42 AM
Here!
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E'jaazi
05-22-2007, 04:03 AM
Excellent!
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Keltoi
05-22-2007, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
There are several problems with this, as Isaiah is neither in the Torah nor the Gospels. Jewish Scriptures have three parts, Law(Torah), Prophets(Nebiim), Writings(Kethuvim). Isaiah is not in the Torah but in the Prophets.

Plus, if one reads all of Isaiah 29 in context you will see that it doesn't refer to an "unlettered prophet" at all. Not to mention that the verse in question is talking about an event in Jerusalem, not Arabia. Also, if you truly want to connect Muhammad to verse 12, you would also have to connect him to verse 13...check it out.

The link also didn't answer the question as to how Moses would know about the Gospels when it wasn't written until 1400 years later.
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barney
05-22-2007, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
There are several problems with this, as Isaiah is neither in the Torah nor the Gospels. Jewish Scriptures have three parts, Law(Torah), Prophets(Nebiim), Writings(Kethuvim). Isaiah is not in the Torah but in the Prophets.

Plus, if one reads all of Isaiah 29 in context you will see that it doesn't refer to an "unlettered prophet" at all. Not to mention that the verse in question is talking about an event in Jerusalem, not Arabia. Also, if you truly want to connect Muhammad to verse 12, you would also have to connect him to verse 13...check it out.

The link also didn't answer the question as to how Moses would know about the Gospels when it wasn't written until 1400 years later.
Mohammed knew about the gospels though.
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Sami Zaatari
05-22-2007, 05:31 AM
from www.load-islam.com :

The allegation is as follows:

Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].

The verses in question:
7:155-158
And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou couldst have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou causest whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou leadest whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

156. "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs"

[It is they] who are [now] following the messenger - the Unlettered Prophet - whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel. He enjoins righteousness upon them and forbids them from evil. He makes clean things lawful to them and prohibits all that is foul. He relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that had weighed upon them. Thus, those who have believed in him and have honored him and have aided him and have followed the light sent down with him, are the ones that shall indeed triumph.

Say [to them O Prophet,]: O people! I am God's messenger to you all. [The God] Who has sovereignty over the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but Him. He ordains life and causes death. Therefore have faith in God and His messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believes in God and His commandments. Follow him so that you may be rightly guided.

1. The first point to note, is that this verse does not necessarily have to be part of Allah's dialogue with prophet Moses pbuh. It remains perfectly logical for verse 7:157 to be presented seperately from the two previous verses, or in relation to verse 7:158. For example, M. Farooq-i-Azam Malik renders verse 7:157 with the following interpretation:
(Now special mercy is assigned to) those who follow the Rasool, the unlettered Prophet (Muhammad)....

Hence, it is a seperate reference from Allah's speech to Prophet Moses. This interpretation is supported by the use of past tenses in the verse.

2. Even if this is interpreted as part of the dialogue with Prophet Moses pbuh, it can still be considered a prophecy of future times. As Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes:

In this verse is a pre-figuring, to Moses, of the Arabian Apostle, the last and greatest of the apostles of God. Prophecies about him will be found in the Taurat and the Injeel.
These translators also use the translation of "whom they will find" or "whom they shall find", indicating it is a future prophecy
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جوري
05-22-2007, 05:35 AM
Are you kidding me? you are upset because it states the Torah instead of Isaiah? lol-- take it out with G-D on the day of judgment-- I don't really care in which of their five books it is found---older newer, reinterpreted, or fifty percent new and improved. If the Torah or the Injil were in their original form, there would be no need for the Quran to clarify the errors of the previous two-- we obviously have a different understanding of biblical and Quranic passages --
Further I am not sure I understand your other Question? Maybe it is the hour of the night-- but where do you see Moses knowing about the Gospel from the verse above? giving glad tiding of prophet Mohammed, doesn't automatically denote knowing of the gospel-- and even if he did, what is the big deal? the same way Jacob PBUH knew from G-D that which his sons didn't as evidenced in this verse
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَشْكُو بَثِّي وَحُزْنِي إِلَى اللّهِ وَأَعْلَمُ مِنَ اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ {86}
[Pickthal 12:86] He said: I expose my distress and anguish only unto Allah, and I know from Allah that which ye know not."

Yet he was grieved enough to the point of losing his eye sight, knowing still that Allah would fulfil his promise... so I am not sure wherein the conundrum lies? It baffles me you can make sense of Jesus praying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane, and yet can't fathom, why a messenger of G-D would know something in the way of future events?...

Anyhow here is a commentary from the multilingual Quran as per your verse of interest-- I am not sure how scholarly Purya is-- or even who he is really, but undoubtedly he is better scholared than me when it comes to Islamic jurisprudence-- or you can wait until a morning when one of the board scholars answers you with that which is more satisfactory
peace!



Beta version. Kindly report any error in this text (specify the surah and aya numbers).

Request: Sura 7 Aya 156 to 157



وَاكْتُبْ لَنَا فِي هَـذِهِ الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الآخِرَةِ إِنَّا هُدْنَـا إِلَيْكَ قَالَ عَذَابِي أُصِيبُ بِهِ مَنْ أَشَاء وَرَحْمَتِي وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَسَأَكْتُبُهَا لِلَّذِينَ يَتَّقُونَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَـاةَ وَالَّذِينَ هُم بِآيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {156}
[Pickthal 7:156] And ordain for us in this world that which is good, and in the Hereafter (that which is good), Lo! We have turned unto Thee. He said: I smite with My punishment whom I will, and My mercy embraceth all things, therefore I shall ordain it for those who ward off (evil) and pay the poor-due, and those who believe Our revelations;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 7:156]
"My mercy encompasses everything" shows that the canvas of Allah's mercy enfolds all those sinners who turn repentant unto Him as mentioned in verse 153. While warning people in Bani Israil: 15(No one shall carry another's burden), and in Zilzal: 7 (whosoever has done even an atom's weight of good shall be rewarded), Islam assures the sinners that the doors of Allah's mercy always remain open for those who sincerely turn repentant to Allah (see commentary of al Fatihah: 3).

The theory of a general and unconditional pardon propagated by any religion that the price of the sins committed, being committed and to be committed by all the human beings has been paid by a prophet, gives birth to evil, disorder and corruption. It becomes a licence to sin and make mischief in the world. See Jathiyah: 21 and 22.

Verse 157 says that the divine mercy is available to those who safeguard themselves against evil and follow the teachings of the Holy Prophet, again repeated in verse 158. See commentary of Nisa: 80.

For ummi see commentary of al Baqarah: 78.

The advent of the Holy Prophet had been announced by Musa and Isa. See commentary of al Baqarah: 40.

For amr bil maruf and nahya anil munkar see commentary of Ali Imran : 101 to 115 (Aqa Mahdi Puya's note on page 245.

The Holy Prophet was sent to the whole mankind as a messenger of Allah for all times. See also Nisa: 7 ; Anbiya: 107 and Saba: 28. Matthew 10: 5, 6; and 15: 22 to 26 confirm that Isa was sent to the lost sheep of the children of Israil.

See commentary of al Baqarah: 255 for "There is no god but He and to Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth"; and for "He gives life and death" refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 259 and 260.




الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {157}
[Pickthal 7:157] Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 7:157] (see commentary for verse 156)


*****
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ummzayd
05-22-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
There are several problems with this, as Isaiah is neither in the Torah nor the Gospels. Jewish Scriptures have three parts, Law(Torah), Prophets(Nebiim), Writings(Kethuvim). Isaiah is not in the Torah but in the Prophets.

The link also didn't answer the question as to how Moses would know about the Gospels when it wasn't written until 1400 years later.
Firstly, Deuteronomy is in the Torah:

'A prophet I will raise up for them from among their brethren, llike you (ie Moses) and I shall indeed put My words in his mouth' Deut 18:18

Prophet Muhammad pbuh, leader of his community, a family man, who brought laws from God - who else could possibly be compared to Moses? certainly not Jesus pbuh.


secondly, if you read the qur'an excerpt that brother Sami Zaatari quoted, it seems clear to me that 7:157 is not part of the dialogue with Prophet Moses pbuh.

This qur'an is very different from the bible. It's not a story book in the same way as the bible (I mean in a literary sense I'm not being insulting). The qur'an is not a narrative of past happenings, it is a recitation that is addressed to an audience, it addresses us as it addressed the Prophet pbuh and those around him. You are looking for 'mistakes' in what God said to Moses, but God is speaking to us in the qur'an not Moses. I don't think I'm expressing what I mean very well, sorry, perhaps someone else can explain it better.

peace
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Philosopher
05-22-2007, 08:44 AM
You all are idiots. I can't believe human beings as complex organisms still rely on pre-Medieval dogmas.
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Pk_#2
05-22-2007, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
You all are idiots. I can't believe human beings as complex organisms still rely on pre-Medieval dogmas.
Harsh. :skeleton:
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- Qatada -
05-22-2007, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
You all are idiots. I can't believe human beings as complex organisms still rely on pre-Medieval dogmas.

What? :?
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rav
05-22-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
Firstly, Deuteronomy is in the Torah:

'A prophet I will raise up for them from among their brethren, llike you (ie Moses) and I shall indeed put My words in his mouth' Deut 18:18

Prophet Muhammad pbuh, leader of his community, a family man, who brought laws from God - who else could possibly be compared to Moses? certainly not Jesus pbuh.
peace
Shalom,

This claim of Devarim 18:18 has been refuted numerous times on this site, as have most of the other claims of Islamic figures in Jewish scripture. You are free to believe what you wish, but understand that when my scriptures in my belief are being taken out of context, or mistranslated, then I will stand up and let my voice be heard, like you would if your scriptures were ever misinterpreted.
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skhalid
05-22-2007, 01:08 PM
1. How could Moses know about the Injil(Gospel) when it wasn't written until 1400 years later?

God informed him ...as you know we believe God knows all and see's all...the past, present, future etc,...u get the idea!!!
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Umar001
05-22-2007, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Shalom,

This claim of Devarim 18:18 has been refuted numerous times on this site, as have most of the other claims of Islamic figures in Jewish scripture. You are free to believe what you wish, but understand that when my scriptures in my belief are being taken out of context, or mistranslated, then I will stand up and let my voice be heard, like you would if your scriptures were ever misinterpreted.
Peace be upon you to,

Where has it, am curious to read, I have only seen one that lav posted but he is gone.
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- Qatada -
05-22-2007, 01:53 PM
:salamext:


The Description of that Messenger


[الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِىَّ الأُمِّىَّ الَّذِى يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِى التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنجِيلِ]


(Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither
read nor write whom they find written with them in the Tawrah and the Injil,) This is the description of the Prophet Muhammad in the Books of the Prophets. They delivered the good news of his advent to their nations and commanded them to follow him. His descriptions were still apparent in their Books, as the rabbis and the priests well know. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sakhr Al-`Uqayli said that a bedouin man said to him, "I brought a milk-producing camel to Al-Madinah during the life time of Allah's Messenger. After I sold it, I said to myself, `I will meet that man (Muhammad) and hear from him.' So I passed by him while he was walking between Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I followed them until they went by a Jewish man, who was reading from an open copy of the Tawrah. He was mourning a son of his who was dying and who was one of the most handsome boys. The Messenger of Allah asked him (the father),


«أَنْشُدُكَ بِالَّذِي أَنْزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ هَلْ تَجِدُ فِي كِتَابِكَ هَذَا صِفَتِي وَمَخْرَجِي؟»

(I ask you by He Who has sent down the Tawrah, do you not find the description of me and my advent in your Book) He nodded his head in the negative. His son said, `Rather, yes, by He Who has sent down the Tawrah! We find the description of you and your advent in our Book. I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. ' The Prophet said (to the Companions),


«أَقِيمُوا الْيَهُودِيَّ عَنْ أَخِيكُم»


(Stop the Jew (the father) from (taking care of) your brother (in Islam).) The Prophet then personally took care of the son's funeral and led the funeral prayer on him.''' This Hadith is sound and is supported by a similar Hadith in the Sahih narrated from Anas. Ibn Jarir recorded that Al-Muthanna said that `Ata' bin Yasar said, "I met `Abdullah bin `Amr and asked him, `Tell me about the description of Allah's Messenger in the Tawrah.' He said, `Yes, by Allah! He is described in the Tawrah, just as he is described in the Qur'an,



[يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ إِنَّآ أَرْسَلْنَـكَ شَاهِداً وَمُبَشِّراً وَنَذِيراً ]

(O Prophet! Verily, We have sent you as a witness, and a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner.) [33:45] as a safe refuge for the unlettered ones. `You are My servant and Messenger. I have called you `Al-Mutawakkil' (who trusts in Allah), not hard or harsh.' Neither uttering foul speech in the markets nor returning evil deed with one in kind. Rather, he forgives and forgoes. Allah will not end his life until He straightens through him the crooked religion, so that they might proclaim, `There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.' He will open through him sealed hearts, deaf ears and blind eyes.''' `Ata' then said, "I also met Ka`b and asked him the same question, and his answer did not differ from `Abdullah's answer, even concerning one letter. '' Al-Bukhari recorded it from `Abdullah bin `Amr. It was also recorded by Al-Bukhari [up to the word] forgoes. And he mentioned the narration of `Abdullah bin `Amr then he said; "It was common in the speech of our Salaf that they describe the Books of the People of the Two Scriptures as the Tawrah, as some Hadiths concur. Allah knows best.'' Allah's statement,


[يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَـهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ]

(He commands them to do good; and forbids them from evil;)
This is the description of the Messenger of Allah in previous Books. These were the true qualities of our Messenger , as well, for he only ordained good and forbade evil. We should mention here that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "When you hear Allah's statement,



[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ]

(O you who believe!), then pay it your full attention, for it is a good that you are being commanded, or an evil that you are being forbidden.'' And the most important and greatest of these commands and prohibitions, is that Allah has sent the Messenger to order worshipping Him Alone without partners and forbid worshipping others besides Him. This is the Message that Allah has sent all Messengers with before Muhammad , just as Allah said,


[وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الْطَّـغُوتَ]
(And verily, We have sent among every Ummah a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah, and avoid the Taghut (false deities)'')[16:36]. Allah's statement,


[وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَـتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَـئِثَ]

(He makes lawful for them the good things, and forbids them from the evil things,) meaning, he makes the Bahirah, Sa'ibah, Wasilah and Ham, etc., lawful. They were prohibitions that they invented which were only hard for themselves. He also forbids them from evil things, such as the flesh of the pig, Riba, and foods that were treated as lawful although Allah the Exalted had forbidden them. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported this from Ibn `Abbas. Allah's statement,


[وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالاٌّغْلَـلَ الَّتِى كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ]

(He (Muhammad) releases them from their heavy burdens, and from the fetters that were upon them.)
indicates that Muhammad came with leniency and an easy religion. As mentioned in the Hadith recorded from many routes that Allah's Messenger said,




«بُعِثْتُ بِالْحَنِيفِيَّةِ السَّمْحَة»

(I was sent with the easy way of Hanifiyyah [monotheism]) The Prophet said to the two Commanders he appointed, Mu`adh and Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari, when he sent them to Yemen,


«بَشِّرَا وَلَا تُنَفِّرَا وَيَسِّرَا وَلَا تُعَسِّرَا وَتَطَاوَعَا وَلَا تَخْتَلِفَا»


(Bring glad tidings and do not drive people away, make things easy and do not make them difficult, obey each other and do not differ among yourselves). Abu Barzah Al-Aslami, the Prophet's Companion, said, "I accompanied the Messenger of Allah and saw how easy he was. The nations that were before us had things made difficult for them in their laws. Allah made the law encompassing and easy for this Ummah. Hence the statement of the Messenger of Allah,


«إِنَّ اللهَ تَجَاوَزَ لِأُمَّتِي مَا حَدَّثَتْ بِهِ أَنْفُسُهَا مَا لَمْ تَقُلْ أَوْ تَعْمَل»


(Allah has forgiven my Ummah for what occurs in themselves, as long as they do not utter it or act upon it.) The Prophet said,


«رُفِعَ عَنْ أُمَّتِي الْخَطَأُ وَالنِّسْيَانُ وَمَا اسُتُكْرِهُوا عَلَيْه»


(My Ummah was forgiven (by Allah) unintentional errors, forgetfulness and what they are forced to do.)'' This is why Allah has guided this Ummah to proclaim,




[رَبَّنَا لاَ تُؤَاخِذْنَآ إِن نَّسِينَآ أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَآ إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَآ أَنتَ مَوْلَـنَا فَانْصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَـفِرِينَ]


("Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall into error, our Lord! Lay not on us a burden like that which You did lay on those before us (Jews and Christians); our Lord! Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Mawla (Patron, Supporter and Protector) and give us victory over the disbelieving people.) [2:286] It is recorded in Sahih Muslim that [the Prophet said that] Allah the Exalted said after every one of these supplications, "I shall accept (your supplication).'' Allah's statement,


[فَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ]


(So those who believe in him, honor him, help him.) refers to respecting and honoring Muhammad ,


[وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِى أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ]


(and follow the light which has been sent down with him,) the Qur'an and the revelation [Sunnah] that the Prophet delivered to mankind,


[أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ]


(it is they who will be successful.) in this life and the Hereafter.


[قُلْ يَأَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِى لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْىِ وَيُمِيتُ فَـَامِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِىِّ الأُمِّىِّ الَّذِى يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَكَلِمَـتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ ]


(158. Say: "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah -- to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. None has the right to be worshipped but He. It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and His Words, and follow him so that you may be guided.'')




Tafsir Ibn Kathir - SOURCE
Reply

ummzayd
05-22-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Shalom,

This claim of Devarim 18:18 has been refuted numerous times on this site, as have most of the other claims of Islamic figures in Jewish scripture. You are free to believe what you wish, but understand that when my scriptures in my belief are being taken out of context, or mistranslated, then I will stand up and let my voice be heard, like you would if your scriptures were ever misinterpreted.
peace to you

Obviously I do not expect any Jewish person to agree that this scripture refers to Prophet Muhammad pbuh. I have not seen any refutation though, could you either direct me there or explain here who it is the Jews believe is being referred to in this scripture.

In Islam we have tafseer - verse-by-verse explanation of qur'an. Is there anything similar in Judaism for the tanakh, & if so is it available to non-Jews?
Reply

Keltoi
05-22-2007, 03:09 PM
So from what I understand so far, the verse in question is to be looked at as a prophecy? Allah is telling Moses about the Injil that doesn't yet exist because Allah can obviously see the future? I of course agree that God knows all that was and all that will be. If this is the explanation I have no choice but to accept it. Contrary to what some might think, I didn't post this question trying to "trip" anyone up, I came upon this verse and the timeline struck me as odd. I've been told that the Qu'ran has many time compression issues, and this appeared to be an example. Thanks for the responses.
Reply

rav
05-22-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Peace be upon you to,

Where has it, am curious to read, I have only seen one that lav posted but he is gone.
Shalom Eleichem (Peace be upon you),

Posted from here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/712307-post34.html


Claim: The Torah Itself Predicts Mohammed as a Prophet

Many Muslims will claim that the Torah itself (apparently the "uncorrupted" part) predicts the coming of their so-called prophet some time after the giving of the Torah. All Bible translations are directly from the Hebrew, all of them literal.

Where Did They Get That Idea?

The relevant verse of the Torah is as follows:

Deuteronomy 18:18 A prophet I will raise up for them from amongst their brethren like you and I will give my words into his lips and he will speak about them all that I command him.

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.
So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.

Having established that, what's the connection?

The assertion is that "from amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites, and as Muslims assert many times, Mohammed is descended from Abraham through Ishmael.

In order to properly analyze this, I will not make a table comparing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, as many do on both Christian and Muslim websites in order to pervert the meaning of this verse.

Instead, I will make a minor sidestep into the world of Jewish thought.
For those of us that do not have the presumption that the Torah is wrong and faulty, there is a list of thirteen basic rules on how to deduce meaning from the Torah. They are provided as the introduction to Sifre, and are recited in the preliminary portion of the daily morning prayers.

Just as in the Torah where there are laws that are obviously "just" and those that we cannot comprehend, a parallel applies here. Some rules make sense, and others are assertions of rules. I will make use of two rules that make a good deal of sense.

Rule number 2 states quite simply "mig'zerah shavah" which means "From a decree of equality".

Rule number 12 is that "davar halamed m'inyano, v'davar halamed m'sofo" which is often translated like "An item is taught/clarified from it's context, or from nearby verses."

Why these two rules? Rule number 2 tells us that if we have a word in one location that is vague, and the same word elsewhere more clear, we can use one to clarify the other. The reason for the second rule will be evident shortly.

The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

For further explicitness of the term foreigner, let's turn to Exodus 12.
Exodus 12:43 And G-d said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover offering, every son of a foreigner shall not eat of it.
Conclusion

Since we can now see that a foreigner does not take part of something as central as the Passover celebration, which is incumbant on all Israelite males when the Temple stands, we can see that a foreigner is simply a non-Israelite, and it doesn't matter their genealogy.


In Islam we have tafseer - verse-by-verse explanation of qur'an. Is there anything similar in Judaism for the tanakh, & if so is it available to non-Jews?
Yes, thousands of our wisest sages have commented on the Torah throughout history, which is another reason as to why we believe the Torah is uncorrupted. If it was corrupted, these sages would be commenting line by line on different verses, yet from Spain, France, Yemen, Ethiopia, Vilnus, Poland and Russia they are the same.

Unfortunatly, for almost 99.9% of them, Hebrew is the language they are written in... A few have been completly translated into english and are sold at artscroll.com
Reply

Umar001
05-22-2007, 06:29 PM
Oh yea, I think I asked him if he had a Jewish Translation of the Scripture of Dueteronomy that I could read online, have you?
Reply

Philosopher
05-22-2007, 06:51 PM
LMAO.....humanity has no hope.

People are still wasting their lives over pre-Medieval superstitions. It's time to give up false dogmas and rely on science, logic, and tolerance.
Reply

- Qatada -
05-22-2007, 06:52 PM
Philosopher, are you muslim?
Reply

Kittygyal
05-22-2007, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Philosopher, are you muslim?
Salamualikum.
In his status it says ya he is allah hu alim.
Lying is forbidden in Islam or any religion it can't be tolerated at all times.
ma'assalama
Reply

جوري
05-22-2007, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
Firstly, Deuteronomy is in the Torah:

'A prophet I will raise up for them from among their brethren, llike you (ie Moses) and I shall indeed put My words in his mouth' Deut 18:18

Prophet Muhammad pbuh, leader of his community, a family man, who brought laws from God - who else could possibly be compared to Moses? certainly not Jesus pbuh.


secondly, if you read the qur'an excerpt that brother Sami Zaatari quoted, it seems clear to me that 7:157 is not part of the dialogue with Prophet Moses pbuh.

This qur'an is very different from the bible. It's not a story book in the same way as the bible (I mean in a literary sense I'm not being insulting). The qur'an is not a narrative of past happenings, it is a recitation that is addressed to an audience, it addresses us as it addressed the Prophet pbuh and those around him. You are looking for 'mistakes' in what God said to Moses, but God is speaking to us in the qur'an not Moses. I don't think I'm expressing what I mean very well, sorry, perhaps someone else can explain it better.

peace

That is brilliant ukhty.. I didn't bother with a thorough search yesterday.. Thanks for clarifying.. reps.. once I regain my rep-ability insha'Allah--- =)
fi aman illah
:w:
Reply

ummzayd
05-22-2007, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by rav
Shalom Eleichem (Peace be upon you),

Posted from here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/712307-post34.html


[indent]Claim: The Torah Itself Predicts Mohammed as a Prophet

Many Muslims will claim that the Torah itself (apparently the "uncorrupted" part) predicts the coming of their so-called prophet some time after the giving of the Torah. All Bible translations are directly from the Hebrew, all of them literal.

Where Did They Get That Idea?

The relevant verse of the Torah is as follows:

Deuteronomy 18:18 A prophet I will raise up for them from amongst their brethren like you and I will give my words into his lips and he will speak about them all that I command him.

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.
So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.
thanks for the detailed reply, it's interesting to have an insight into the 'old testament' from a Jewish perspective. but you didn't say who the Prophet referred to in 18:18 is? & in what way is he specifically 'like Moses'?

thanks too for the link I will be looking them up insha'Allah, I have a (non-Muslim) nephew who is really interested in studying religions especially Judaism & Islam but it's so hard to find the same kinds of books about Judaism as there are about Islam - probably because Judaism is not about spreading a message as such but is more of a 'closed club' that's quite difficult to get into.....is that a fair comment?

Peace to you
Reply

rav
05-22-2007, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
thanks for the detailed reply, it's interesting to have an insight into the 'old testament' from a Jewish perspective. but you didn't say who the Prophet referred to in 18:18 is? & in what way is he specifically 'like Moses'?

thanks too for the link I will be looking them up insha'Allah, I have a (non-Muslim) nephew who is really interested in studying religions especially Judaism & Islam but it's so hard to find the same kinds of books about Judaism as there are about Islam - probably because Judaism is not about spreading a message as such but is more of a 'closed club' that's quite difficult to get into.....is that a fair comment?

Peace to you
Shalom,

Well your observation is a bit true. I would not label Judaism a "closed club" but instead a much more accurate analogy would be a club that is not seeking members, but you can certainly make an appointment. The reason is because non-Jews can go to heaven and have a specific purpose as do Jews, so there is no need to convert unless the non-Jew believes he will spiritualy benefit from a conversion.

Therefore, most Jewish texts, seforim and commentaries are in hebrew because this is the language of the Jewish people.

Oh yea, I think I asked him if he had a Jewish Translation of the Scripture of Dueteronomy that I could read online, have you?
Shalom,

Here is a good online translation:

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp

However, I must warn you that they will always be translations, and when reading them you must note that you are most likely not grasping 100% of what the text is trying to say, unless you read and understand the Hebrew langauge. If you understand Hebrew then I can provide many links for you which have kept me up many nights.

Basically, it is a translations, and our Blessed Sages of Memmory told us that translating our scriptures was like the sin of the Golden Calf. It would inspire the gentiles to believe in G-d, but at the same time would create idol worship since they would not be able to grasp the Torah without their knowledge of Hebrew, and the Oral Tradition. Which is exactly what occured after the Torah was translated into Greek and then translated into about every other language known to man from there.
Reply

Philosopher
05-22-2007, 09:14 PM
Wow.......strong waste of life :-/
Reply

Keltoi
05-22-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Wow.......strong waste of life :-/
What is a waste of life?
Reply

ummzayd
05-22-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
Wow.......strong waste of life :-/
sheesh.....seems to me that for someone who thinks this discussion is such a waste of time you keep coming back to check on what's being said.....there must be a million discussion boards that would bore me to tears but here's a hint for you.........I DON'T GO ON THEM!!
Reply

Philosopher
05-22-2007, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What is a waste of life?
Years of studying a false dogma when one can be doing something more practical and constructive.
Reply

Umar001
05-22-2007, 11:03 PM
Well at least they are doing something and not just coming on a forum saying 'What a waste of life'
Reply

barney
05-22-2007, 11:06 PM
Ahh depends what they get out of it Philosipher.

I could , but dont, worship the Spice girls. The doctrine would be Girl Power, Have fun, look after yourself and drink lots n lots of beer and have self confidence. It's not a bad doctrine. The flip side is I would be devoting years of my life to screechy self obsessed dullards pushing out plastic pop when I could be living my own life and making my own path.

And im not a Girl...so its no good to me. they look fairly hot though apart from Scary Spice, who's a moose.
Reply

جوري
05-22-2007, 11:15 PM
What with all the cheesy allegory?... at least make it bit more adroit like the Death of the Dauphin-- I find it hard relating these examples to any doctrine, the cross between condescension and clever equivocation is often lost to me, if that is the intent of such posts..

peace!
Reply

Keltoi
05-22-2007, 11:23 PM
When I created this thread I never imagined the Spice Girls would be brought up...that is probably a sign that it has served its purpose.
Reply

barney
05-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Wasnt directed at you Purest, the allagory isnt something someone with faith would understand. I was writing to philosopher and Agnostics/Athiests.

In a nutshell i mean I agree with his post, but some people can gain value in religion.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by barney
the allagory isnt something someone with faith would understand. .
oh why not? what are we to you?-- country oafs?
Reply

barney
05-23-2007, 12:55 AM
LOL, no of course not. But as I've said before to you, Faith is not provable, you have to take it...well...on faith!

Some other posters have called it "faith-blindness". Because it's a in-built part of faith that It cant be questioned to a conclusion. I think it was philosipher who coined the phrase "God Steps In".

I'm not doubting your intelligence in the slightest, but in order to analyse some concepts you would have to lose faith or at the very least question it, and I doubt that you would want that even if you could & Certainly ,i wouldnt want that.

I like a good debate , but if I converted someone to agnosticism, I'd feel like a heel. Sometimes Agnostics are more Evangelical than the Fundamentalists.
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 01:13 AM
Believing in Jesus/Allah is as logical as believing in the tooth fairy, snow white and the seven dwarfs, or even






the flying spaghetti monster (may sauce be upon him).
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher

the flying spaghetti monster (may sauce be upon him).
this can only be amusing for so long... how about some new material? If I am going to waste my time reading, I would in the least appreciate some non-recycled rhetoric...


peace!
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
this can only be amusing for so long... how about some new material? If I am going to waste my time reading, I would in the least appreciate some non-recycled rhetoric...


peace!
You have blasphemed my religion.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
You have blasphemed my religion.
ah.. alas.. you should start your own forum and eat your G-D to your heart's content

there she goes now...
Reply

barney
05-23-2007, 01:22 AM
LOL @ Purests piccy

Jesus is a historical figure Philly, it's just the bit about him being God that is a bit of a grey area.

But I sign up to spaggettiism, consider me your first diciple.

Whats your Doctrine & Dogma? Cos I can feel I would be a Wholemeal-fastcook adventist.
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
ah.. alas.. you should start your own forum and eat your G-D to your heart's content

there she goes now...
This is idolatry!
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 01:23 AM
Salam,

The question about how Moses knew of Jesus is important to everybody's redemption.

I am just about to make a post in the thread which I opened and is named only Jinn. It sort of explains, but it is a difficult comprehension, and needs to be categorised along with subject matter in reference to Jinn.

I had a Dream about Seth noticing that Moses and the Burning bush is in people's mind right at this time, and the day before I saw that this thread is here, and there was also a television programme with a homeless man asking a pop star about what the reference to flames in the bush in his song was about.

All the references asked about can be contextualised only by understanding that the time sequences in the minds of the Jinn are far different to the time sequences in the minds of men. Also that the shaytan figured that out before men, and take it to their advantage, but only by ignoring the full teaching of what level of accountiblity the Jinn are accepting in time.

I will come back into this post and leave a link after I make the other post

Salam alaykum
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by barney
LOL @ Purests piccy

Jesus is a historical figure Philly, it's just the bit about him being God that is a bit of a grey area.

But I sign up to spaggettiism, consider me your first diciple.

Whats your Doctrine & Dogma? Cos I can feel I would be a Wholemeal-fastcook adventist.
No, Jesus is not a historical figure. I recommend you read some of Doherty's work. The "buy-bull" does not count.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
This is idolatry!
you should really makeup your mind.. one minute you want sauce on her and the next, you no longer wish to idolize her? there are meds you know to help with this sort of bipolarity-- I think in your case it is more prudent to seek medical RX, than an object of adoration...

peace!
Reply

barney
05-23-2007, 01:31 AM
Pete Dochaty? the drugged up frontsman of the Babyshambels? No ta.

When Philly said "sauce" its taken from the ancient Marinade-ic language "Source" which when you transcribe it into English many spaggetiists have postured that it refers to the Source where the pasta was grown.

In this case being Southern Italy. My wholemeal-adventist leigions are off to reclaim this land as i speak.
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 01:54 AM
that link I mentioned has this :- [QUOTE=Curaezipirid;745466] [QUOTE]
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Wasnt directed at you Purest, the allagory isnt something someone with faith would understand. I was writing to philosopher and Agnostics/Athiests.

In a nutshell i mean I agree with his post, but some people can gain value in religion.
If an allegory is truly an allegory, only those with real Faith can understand it.

There are stories which for one person might be intoxicating, such as from 1001 Arabian nights, yet for another person might be terrifying. So for one person an allegory can be Haram, while for another it can be Halal and indeed necessary to be reading, only so as to sustain Faith in this modern world.
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Pete Dochaty? the drugged up frontsman of the Babyshambels? No ta.

When Philly said "sauce" its taken from the ancient Marinade-ic language "Source" which when you transcribe it into English many spaggetiists have postured that it refers to the Source where the pasta was grown.

In this case being Southern Italy. My wholemeal-adventist leigions are off to reclaim this land as i speak.
We can fight over Jerusalem because that land was promised to us by the flying spaghetti monster (may sauce be upon him).

After all, the FSM was devoured and digested for our sins.
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 01:58 AM
Whose Allegory means what here I wonder?
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
No, Jesus is not a historical figure. I recommend you read some of Doherty's work. The "buy-bull" does not count.
The history written by the Jew known to the Romans as Josephus is a true account.

It is usually discredited because it was written 30 years later then Jesus death is recorded, however the 30 year span is distincly within eyewitness account.

Denying it would be akin to demanding that we all ignore every part of writing about Mohammed made after his death.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Whose Allegory means what here I wonder?
I have always enjoyed the Allegory of human vanities... we can dedicate this post to it!


'Vanity of vanities, all is vanity'. The books symbolise human knowledge, the musical instruments (a recorder, part of a shawm, a lute) the pleasures of the senses. The Japanese sword and the shell, both collectors' rarities, symbolise wealth. The chronometer and expiring lamp allude to the transience and frailty of human life. All are dominated by the skull, the symbol of death.

national gallery
Reply

barney
05-23-2007, 02:14 AM
Heck no way. Lets give Jerusalem a break. Its clear that the FSM meant Manchester. you just need to interpret it through a Scholor on the matter.

I think denying that Jesus existed is a bit tinfoil, the Romans were pretty sure that he was some sort of political activist. I'll try and read Dochatys work after i've finished with all these hadiths i'm ploughing through, thanks for the reference.

Nice pic BTW, life is indeed transitory. It should be lived to the full.
I live it to the full by spamming endless forums at 3AM arguing about intangable concepts and playing XBOX 360.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by barney
with all these hadiths i'm ploughing through, thanks for the reference.

Nice pic BTW, life is indeed transitory. It should be lived to the full.
I live it to the full by spamming endless forums at 3AM arguing about intangable concepts and playing XBOX 360.
Indeed, and I believe it was 3li ibn Abi talib RA who said,(though I am not certain it was he)-- "Live life as if you were going to live forever, and prepare for the hereafter as if you were to die tomorrow" Gandhi later took that and put a spin on it--

that is why it is a bewilderment to me, for someone to live it not striking a balance... and seeking fulfillment on every level... (science, history, religion, travel, Art, philosophy) I for a long time lived as an "agnostic"-- and felt an incredible void.... more "restless" than anything really, I don't know how to ignore religion....
life to me is a miracle, I think therein lies the difference really. Some people see it as is, and some can't conceive of all of this-- and I happen to belong to the later group!
Everything is remarkable to me and can only point the arrow in one direction....

peace!
Reply

Philosopher
05-23-2007, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Heck no way. Lets give Jerusalem a break. Its clear that the FSM meant Manchester. you just need to interpret it through a Scholor on the matter.

I think denying that Jesus existed is a bit tinfoil, the Romans were pretty sure that he was some sort of political activist. I'll try and read Dochatys work after i've finished with all these hadiths i'm ploughing through, thanks for the reference.

Nice pic BTW, life is indeed transitory. It should be lived to the full.
I live it to the full by spamming endless forums at 3AM arguing about intangable concepts and playing XBOX 360.
There is no use studying over fairy tales. We have only one life and we should live it to the fullest.
Reply

Curaezipirid
05-23-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
We can fight over Jerusalem because that land was promised to us by the flying spaghetti monster (may sauce be upon him).

After all, the FSM was devoured and digested for our sins.
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Whose Allegory means what here I wonder?
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
The history written by the Jew known to the Romans as Josephus is a true account.

It is usually discredited because it was written 30 years later then Jesus death is recorded, however the 30 year span is distincly within eyewitness account.

Denying it would be akin to demanding that we all ignore every part of writing about Mohammed made after his death.
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have always enjoyed the Allegory of human vanities... we can dedicate this post to it!


'Vanity of vanities, all is vanity'. The books symbolise human knowledge, the musical instruments (a recorder, part of a shawm, a lute) the pleasures of the senses. The Japanese sword and the shell, both collectors' rarities, symbolise wealth. The chronometer and expiring lamp allude to the transience and frailty of human life. All are dominated by the skull, the symbol of death.

national gallery
Originally Posted by barney
Heck no way. Lets give Jerusalem a break. Its clear that the FSM meant Manchester. you just need to interpret it through a Scholor on the matter.

I think denying that Jesus existed is a bit tinfoil, the Romans were pretty sure that he was some sort of political activist. I'll try and read Dochatys work after i've finished with all these hadiths i'm ploughing through, thanks for the reference.

Nice pic BTW, life is indeed transitory. It should be lived to the full.
I live it to the full by spamming endless forums at 3AM arguing about intangable concepts and playing XBOX 360.
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Indeed, and I believe it was 3li ibn Abi talib RA who said,(though I am not certain it was he)-- "Live life as if you were going to live forever, and prepare for the hereafter as if you were to die tomorrow" Gandhi later took that and put a spin on it--

that is why it is a bewilderment to me, for someone to live it not striking a balance... and seeking fulfillment on every level... (science, history, religion, travel, Art, philosophy) I for a long time lived as an "agnostic"-- and felt an incredible void.... more "restless" than anything really, I don't know how to ignore religion....
life to me is a miracle, I think therein lies the difference really. Some people see it as is, and some can't conceive of all of this-- and I happen to belong to the later group!
Everything is remarkable to me and can only point the arrow in one direction....

peace!
Originally Posted by Philosopher
There is no use studying over fairy tales. We have only one life and we should live it to the fullest.
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
If an allegory is truly an allegory, only those with real Faith can understand it.

There are stories which for one person might be intoxicating, such as from 1001 Arabian nights, yet for another person might be terrifying. So for one person an allegory can be Haram, while for another it can be Halal and indeed necessary to be reading, only so as to sustain Faith in this modern world.

I don't get it, but
Reply

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