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Sami Zaatari
05-25-2007, 08:21 PM
The Arab rulers never cease to expose their hypocrisy and kufr:


Palestinian factions were scrambling to find a negotiated solution to end the siege and avert what many fear would be a bloody battle over the Nahr el-Bared camp, where thousands of civilians remain in the line of fire.

Defense Minister Elias Murr said he was "leaving room for political negotiations," which he said must lead to the surrender of the fighters from the Fatah Islam militant group inside the camp.

"If the political negotiations fail, I leave it to the military command to do what is necessary," he told reporters.

The military was gearing up for a fight, rolling more troops into place around the camp in northern Lebanon, already ringed by hundreds of soldiers backed by artillery and tanks. Fatah Islam has claimed to have over 500 fighters, armed with automatic weapons, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades.

At least a dozen more armored carriers and a battle tank were seen headed for the area Friday.

Sporadic gunfire at Nahr el-Bared camp kept tensions high, but a truce that has halted three days of heavy artillery and rocket bombardment since Tuesday held.

An all-out assault on the camp would risk sparking unrest and violence elsewhere in the country, where some 400,000 Palestinian refugees live, most in camps that are rife with armed groups.

A deputy Fatah Islam leader, Abu Hureira, told the pan-Arab Al Hayat daily by telephone from Nahr el-Bared that "sleeper cells" in other Palestinian camps and elsewhere in Lebanon were awaiting word for a "violent response" if the army struck.

The U.S. military aid could also attract other militants into what they see as a battle against the West and its allies. Extremist groups were already using the battle at the camp as propaganda.

A group billing itself as al-Qaida's branch in Syria and Lebanon vowed "seas of blood" if the Lebanese army resumes its attack. In a video posted on the Web Friday, a spokesman for the group threatened bomb attacks on Lebanon's vital tourist industry. Earlier, a Palestinian group called the Army of Islam also threatened attacks. The capabilities of the two groups are not known.

The airlift from the United States and Arab countries boosts the military in what could be a tough urban battle inside the camp, a densely built town of narrow streets.

But the U.S. aid is sensitive in a nation deeply divided between supporters of a pro-Western government and an opposition backed by America's Mideast foes, Iran and Syria. The opposition accuses the government of Prime Minister Fuad Saniora of being too closely allied to Washington.

Between late Thursday and early afternoon Friday, five military transport planes landed at Beirut airport, including one from the U.S. Air Force, two from the United Arab Emirates and two from Jordan.

The military refused to comment on the shipments, but media reports said they included ammunition, body armor, helmets and night-vision equipment.

U.S. military officials said Washington would send eight planes of supplies, part of a package that had been agreed on but that the Lebanese government asked to be expedited.

About half of Nahr el-Bared's population of 31,000 fled the camp during the truce, flooding into the nearby Beddawi camp. At least 20 civilians and 30 soldiers were killed in the fighting earlier this week. The Lebanese military says 60 Fatah Islam fighters were killed, though the group put the toll at 10.

The truce also gave Palestinian mediators a chance to maneuver. But prospects for a peaceful settlement appeared dim, with the government determined to finish off the militants, Fatah Islam vowing to fight to the death and major Palestinian factions unable to agree on how to take charge of camp security.

"We want a solution that pleases both sides. We don't want dead people on both sides," said Ghassan Ahmed, 35, a camp resident who was hospitalized with shrapnel in the leg and arm. "They should send Fatah Islam to another country. Maybe there they can find another life."

___

Associated Press writers Lolita Baldor in Washington and Sam F. Ghattas in Beirut contributed to this report.

(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070525/...banon_violence)

Amazing isnt it? how these arab goverments and the lebanease politicians act so strong now, but when israel was destroying lebanon they were all as weak as an ant especially that coward of a man Fouad Siniora who was crying on national tv and begging israel to stop and the world to help him, now look at him, acting all big and strong!
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Keltoi
05-25-2007, 09:35 PM
The Lebanese army, or what passes for it, doesn't have the supply line of ammunition and other military equipment like other national militaries. The U.S. is actually sending most of the ammo and supplies to Lebanon, through Jordan. Like it or not, Arab governments don't want Al-Qaeda in their territory...call them crazy. Everyone, with sense, is hoping the Lebanese can crush Fatah Islam.

I was watching live coverage of the firefight last night and the reporter mentioned the fact that normal Lebanese citizens were grabbing weapons and joining the Lebanese army as they fired upon the Al-Qaeda fighters.
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Zman
05-25-2007, 09:35 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Subhan Allah. This is absolutely amazing.

Those governments didn't lift a finger to aid Lebanon and Hizbullah during Israel's last destructive bombardment of that nation. But now, those mighty "lions" of the Middle East have finally woken up from their slumber and decided that it was apprpriate to help the Lebanese government against this "mighty foe."

As for the Lebanese government, they won't defend Lebanese soil nor air space due to Israel's many violations; they didn't help Hizbullah in the last Israeli invasion; and they sat back as Israel destroyed it's infrastructure & kmurdered its civilians; But now, they have suddenly found their manhood to take on Palestinian refugees.

Isn't Fatah al-Islam, the same Sunni group Bush, Israel and some secular Arab government's recently & covertly armed to take on Hizbullah?
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Sami Zaatari
05-25-2007, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Lebanese army, or what passes for it, doesn't have the supply line of ammunition and other military equipment like other national militaries. The U.S. is actually sending most of the ammo and supplies to Lebanon, through Jordan. Like it or not, Arab governments don't want Al-Qaeda in their territory...call them crazy. Everyone, with sense, is hoping the Lebanese can crush Fatah Islam.

I was watching live coverage of the firefight last night and the reporter mentioned the fact that normal Lebanese citizens were grabbing weapons and joining the Lebanese army as they fired upon the Al-Qaeda fighters.
ok this is just too lame and stupid, al-qaeda? these men arent al-qaeda, it seems everyone is fond of bringing up al-qaeda now to justify their own goals, these men arent al-qaeda and never were al-qaeda and never claimed to be! this whole bandwagen al-qaeda thing is getting very old now, do you know there were thousands of groups before al-qaeda? these groups are all over the place with their own leaders and fighters, nothing to do with al-qaeda. these men are fatah al-Islam an offshoot orginization from the original fatah, they have nothing to do with al-qaeda, i really suggest you go learn about these people and groups because you obviously dont, so dont be ignorant and go calling everyone al-qaeda when you have no understanding of these ppl or the country, and trust me i do because i happen to have had members of my familly (aunt grandma uncle) who used to live in the refugee camps particularly ain hilweh in sidon. there is no al-qaeda here, they are millitant groups, but not al-qaeda, it seems u want lump all groups who want to fight israel and bring sharia as al-qaeda! how conveniant.
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Keltoi
05-25-2007, 09:41 PM
Fatah al-Islam started as a Syrian backed Palestinian group. So no, the U.S. had nothing to do with it. The leader of this group says their intention is to bring Sharia law to the Palestinian refugee community in Lebanon and then confront Israel.
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Keltoi
05-25-2007, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
ok this is just too lame and stupid, al-qaeda? these men arent al-qaeda, it seems everyone is fond of bringing up al-qaeda now to justify their own goals, these men arent al-qaeda and never were al-qaeda and never claimed to be! this whole bandwagen al-qaeda thing is getting very old now, do you know there were thousands of groups before al-qaeda? these groups are all over the place with their own leaders and fighters, nothing to do with al-qaeda. these men are fatah al-Islam an offshoot orginization from the original fatah, they have nothing to do with al-qaeda, i really suggest you go learn about these people and groups because you obviously dont, so dont be ignorant and go calling everyone al-qaeda when you have no understanding of these ppl or the country, and trust me i do because i happen to have had members of my familly (aunt grandma uncle) who used to live in the refugee camps particularly ain hilweh in sidon. there is no al-qaeda here, they are millitant groups, but not al-qaeda, it seems u want lump all groups who want to fight israel and bring sharia as al-qaeda! how conveniant.

The leader of this group did have ties with Abu Zarqawi, which is why I just call them Al-Qaeda. I know they don't call themselves Al-Qaeda...which is why I called them Fatah al-Islam. However, they share the same ideology, and to me that is what Al-Qaeda is at this point, an ideology.
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Sami Zaatari
05-25-2007, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The leader of this group did have ties with Abu Zarqawi, which is why I just call them Al-Qaeda. I know they don't call themselves Al-Qaeda...which is why I called them Fatah al-Islam. However, they share the same ideology, and to me that is what Al-Qaeda is at this point, an ideology.
so having ties to zarqawi makes them al-qaeda? i guess the house of al-saud must be americans or the bush familly must be saudi since they both have very very strong connections! plz stop using weak weak claims to use this silly everyone is al-qaeda.

secondly another misconception, zarqawi NEVER had contact with bin laden or zawahiri, he had always operated seperately from them, it was not until october 2004 that zarqawi mentioned bin laden in a statement, and then bin laden endorsed zarqawi. the connection between zarqawi and the former leader of fatah al islam was BEFORE zarqawi ever pledged allegiance to bin laden in october 2004.

secondly fatah al Islam's goals are to only fight israel and establish islamic law in palestinian camps, Al-qaeda's goals is a world wide jihad against every country that attacks muslims, so no the ideology is not even the same. they share some common goals which is fighting israel and establishing islamic law but even to call them al-qaeda based on similar ideology is still a propaganda tool that many ppl like u now use for ur own political agenda, basically when u claim that muslims who want to fight israel and establish sharia law become al-qaeda u are painting a very negative picture of them because in todays world if ur al-qaeda ur outlawed and seen as something very very evil, so ur commiting a smeer campaign against several legitimate muslims who are fighting for just causes and trying to follow the Quran and Islam for establishing sharia. so again your wong, muslims who fight ppl who attack them and muslims who seek to establish an islamic state are not al-qaeda or following an al-qaeda ideology, they are simply following islam.
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Zman
05-25-2007, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Fatah al-Islam started as a Syrian backed Palestinian group. So no, the U.S. had nothing to do with it. The leader of this group says their intention is to bring Sharia law to the Palestinian refugee community in Lebanon and then confront Israel.

You really need to quit your Job as an Oracle, because You're not good at it.

Hersh: Bush Administration Arranged Support For Militants Attacking Lebanon

By David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Published: Tuesday May 22, 2007
RawStory

In an interview on CNN International's Your World Today, veteran journalist Seymour Hersh explains that the current violence in Lebanon is the result of an attempt by the Lebanese government to crack down on a militant Sunni group, Fatah al-Islam, that it formerly supported.

Last March, Hersh reported that American policy in the Middle East had shifted to opposing Iran, Syria, and their Shia allies at any cost, even if it meant backing hardline Sunni jihadists.

A key element of this policy shift was an agreement among Vice President Dick Cheney, Deputy National Security Advisor Elliot Abrams, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi national security adviser, whereby the Saudis would covertly fund the Sunni Fatah al-Islam in Lebanon as a counterweight to the Shia Hezbollah.

Hersh points out that the current situation is much like that during the conflict in Afghanistan in the 1980's – which gave rise to al Qaeda – with the same people involved in both the US and Saudi Arabia and the "same pattern" of the US using jihadists that the Saudis assure us they can control.

When asked why the administration would be acting in a way that appears to run counter to US interests, Hersh says that, since the Israelis lost to them last summer, "the fear of Hezbollah in Washington, particularly in the White House, is acute."

As a result, Hersh implies, the Bush administration is no longer acting rationally in its policy.

"We're in the business of supporting the Sunnis anywhere we can against the Shia. ... "We're in the business of creating ... sectarian violence."

And he describes the scheme of funding Fatah al-Islam as:

"A covert program we joined in with the Saudis as part of a bigger, broader program of doing everything we could to stop the spread of the Shia world, and it just simply -- it bit us in the rear."


RUSH TRANSCRIPT:

HALA GORANI:
Well, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reported back in March that in order to defeate Hezbollah, the Lebanese government supported a Sunni militant group, the same ones they're fighting today. Seymour joins us live from Washington. Thanks for being with us. What is the source of the financing according to your reporting on these groups, such as Fatah al-Islam in these camps of Nahr el Bared, for instance? Where are they getting the money and where are they getting the arms?

SEYMOUR HERSH:
The key player is the Saudis. What I was writing about was sort of a private agreement that was made between the White House, we're talking about Richard -- Dick -- Cheney and Elliott Abrams, one of the key aides in the White House, with Bandar. And the idea was to get support, covert support from the Saudis, to support various hard-line jihadists, Sunni groups, particularly in Lebanon, who would be seen in case of an actual confrontation with Hezbollah -- the Shia group in the southern Lebanon -- would be seen as an asset, as simple as that.

GORANI:
The Senora government, in order to counter the influence of Hezbollah in Lebanon would be covertly according to your reporting funding groups like Fatah al-Islam that they're having issues with right now?

HERSH:
Unintended consequences once again, yes.

GORANI:
And so if Saudi Arabia and the Senora government are doing this, whether it's unintended or not, therefore it has the United States must have something to say about it or not?

HERSH:
Well, the United States was deeply involved. This was a covert operation that Bandar ran with us. Don't forget, if you remember, you know, we got into the war in Afghanistan with supporting Osama bin Laden, the mujahadin back in the late 1980s with Bandar and with people like Elliott Abrams around, the idea being that the Saudis promised us they could control -- they could control the jihadists so we spent a lot of money and time, the United States in the late 1980s using and supporting the jihadists to help us beat the Russians in Afghanistan and they turned on us. And we have the same pattern, not as if there's any lessons learned. It's the same pattern, using the Saudis again to support jihadists, Saudis assuring us they can control these various group, the groups like the one that is in contact right now in Tripoli with the government.

GORANI:
Sure, but the mujahadin in the '80s was one era. Why would it be in the best interest of the United States of America right now to indirectly even if it is indirect empower these jihadi movements that are extremists that fight to the death in these Palestinian camps? Doesn't it go against the interests not only of the Senora government but also of America and Lebanon now?

HERSH:
The enemy of our enemy is our friend, much as the jihadist groups in Lebanon were also there to go after Nasrullah. Hezbollah, if you remember, last year defeated Israel, whether the Israelis want to acknowledge it, so you have in Hezbollah, a major threat to the American -- look, the American role is very simple. Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state, has been very articulate about it. We're in the business now of supporting the Sunnis anywhere we can against the Shia, against the Shia in Iran, against the Shia in Lebanon, that is Nasrullah. Civil war. We're in a business of creating in some places, Lebanon in particular, a sectarian violence.

GORANI:
The Bush administration, of course, officials would disagree with that, so would the Senora government, openly pointing the finger at Syria, saying this is an offshoot of a Syrian group, Fatah al-Islam is, where else would it get its arms from if not Syria.

HERSH:
You have to answer this question. If that's true, Syria which is close -- and criticized greatly by the Bush administration for being very close -- to Hezbollah would also be supporting groups, Salafist groups -- the logic breaks down. What it is simply is a covert program we joined in with the Saudis as part of a bigger broader program of doing everything we could to stop the spread of the Shia, the Shia world, and it bit us in the rear, as it's happened before.

GORANI:
Sure, but if it doesn't make any sense for the Syrians to support them, why would it make any sense for the U.S. to indirectly, of course, to support, according to your reporting, by giving a billion dollars in aid, part of it military, to the Senora government -- and if that is dispensed in a way that that government and the U.S. is not controlling extremist groups, then indirectly the United States, according to the article you wrote, would be supporting them. So why would it be in their best interest and what should it do according to the people you've spoken to?

HERSH:
You're assuming logic by the United States government. That's okay. We'll forget that one right now. Basically it's very simple. These groups are seeing -- when I was in Beirut doing interviews, I talked to officials who acknowledged the reason they were tolerating the radical jihadist groups was because they were seen as a protection against Hezbollah. The fear of Hezbollah in Washington, particularly in the White House, is acute. They just simply believe that Hassan Nasrallah is intent on waging war in America. Whether it's true or not is another question. There is a supreme overwhelming fear of Hezbollah and we do not want Hezbollah to play an active role in the government in Lebanon and that's been our policy, basically, which is support the Senora government, despite its weakness against the coalition. Not only Senora but Mr. Ahun, former military leader of Lebanon. There in a coalition that we absolutely abhor.

GORANI:
All right, Seymour Hersh of "The New Yorker" magazine, thanks for joining us there and hopefully we'll be able to speak a little bit in a few months' time when those developments take shape in Lebanon and we know more. Thanks very much.

HERSH:
glad to talk to you.

Source:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Hersh_...ants_0522.html
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Zman
05-25-2007, 11:19 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Who's Behind The Fighting In North Lebanon?

Inside Narh al-Bared and Bedawi Refugee Camps


By FRANKLIN LAMB
May 24, 2007
CounterPunch

Tripoli, Lebanon.

...After three days of shelling and more than 100 dead and with no electricity or water, Nahr el-Baled reeks of burned and rotting flesh, charred houses with smoldering contents, raw sewage and the acrid smell of exploded mortars and tank rounds.

Press figures of 30,000-32,000 are not accurate. 45,000 live in Bared! Contrary to some reports food and water still not being allowed in.

15 to 70 percent of some areas destroyed. Some light shooting this morning and afternoon. Army shelling at rate of 10-18 shells per minute from 4:30 am to 10 am on Tuesday. Army will not allow Palestinian Red Crescent to move out civilians because they don't trust them. Only the Lebanese Red Cross is allowed. It is possible to enter Bared from the back (east side). The Army taking cameras of journalists they catch. The Lebanese government is controlling the information and don't want extent of damage known yet. Still unrecovered bodies. 40 per cent of the camp population have been evacuated. The rest don't want to leave out of fear of being shot or that they are losing their homes for the 5th time or more for some.

No electricity and cell phone batteries are dying. Relatives who fled are telling families to stay because there are not enough mattresses at Bedawi Camp. Bared evacuees are living up to 25 in one room in Badawi schools etc. 3,000 evacuees in one school in Bedawi. UN aid is starting to arrive at Badawi but workers not able so far to deliver it to Bared due to attack on relief convoy on Tuesday.

Now Some Background About Nahr el-Bared:

Like the other Palestinian camps in Lebanon, it is inhabited by Palestinians who were forced from their homes, land, and personal property in 1947-48, in order to make room for Jews from Europe and elsewhere prior to the May 15, 1948 founding of Israel.

Of the original 16 Refugee camps, set up to settle the more than 100,000 refugees crossing the border into Lebanon from Palestine during the Nakba, 12 official ones remain. The camp at Tal El-Za`tar was ethnically cleansed by Christian Phalange forces at the beginning of the 1975-1990, Lebanese Civil War and the Nabatieh, Dikwaneh and Jisr el-Basha camps were destroyed by Israeli attacks and Lebanese militia and not rebuilt. Those remaining include the following which currently house more than half of Lebanon's 433,276 Palestinian refugees:

Al-Badawi, Burj El-Barajna, Jal El-Bahr, Sabra and Shatilla, Ain El-Helwa, Nahr El-Bared, Rashidieh, Burj El Shemali, El-Buss, Wavel, Mieh Mieh and Mar Elias.

Nahr el-Bared is 7 miles north of Tripoli near the stunning Mediterranean coast and is home to more than 32,000 refuges many of whom were expelled from the Lake Huleh area of Palestine, including Safed. Like all the official Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, plus several 'unofficial' ones, Nahr el-Bared suffers from serious problems including no proper infrastructure, overcrowding, poverty and unemployment.

Tabulated at more than 25%, Nahr el-Bared has the highest percentage of Palestinian refugees anywhere who are living in abject poverty and who are officially registered with the UN as "special hardship" cases. Its residents, like all Palestinians in Lebanon are blatantly discriminated against and not even officially counted.

They are denied citizenship and banned from working in the top 70 trades and professions (that includes McDonald's and KFC in downtown Beirut) and cannot own real estate. Palestinians in Lebanon have essentially no social or civil rights and only limited access to government educational facilities. They have no access to public social services. Consequently most rely entirely on the UNRWA as the sole provider for their families needs.

It is not surprising that al-Qaeda sympathies, if not formal affiliations, are found in the 12 official camps as well as 7 unofficial ones. Groups with names such as Fateh al-Islam, Jund al-Shams (Soldier of Damascus) , Ibns al-Shaheed" (sons of the martyrs) Issbat al-Anssar which morphed into Issbat al-Noor - "The Community of Illumination" and many others.

Given Bush administration debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan and its encouragement for Israel to continue its destruction of Lebanon this past summer, the situation in Lebanon mirrors, in some respects, the early 1980's when groups sprung up to resist the US green lighted Israeli invasion and occupation.

But rather than being Shia and pro-Hezbollah, today's groups are largely Sunni and anti-Hezbollah.

Hence they qualify for US aid, funneled by Sunni financial backers in league with the Bush administration which is committed to funding Islamist Sunni groups to weaken Hezbollah.

This project has become the White House obsession following Israel's July 2006 defeat.


To understand what is going on with Fatah al-Islam at Nahr el-Bared one would want a brief introduction to Lebanon's amazing, but shadowy 'Welch Club'.

The Club is named for its godfather, David Welch, assistant to Secretary of State Rice who is the point man for the Bush administration and is guided by Eliot Abrams.

Key Lebanese members of the Welch Club (aka: the 'Club') include:

1. The Lebanese civil war veteran, warlord, feudalist and mercurial Walid Jumblatt of the Druze party( the Progressive Socialist Party or PSP)

2. Another civil war veteran, warlord, terrorist (Served 11 years in prison for massacres committed against fellow Christians among others) Samir Geagea. Leader of the extremist Phalange party and its Lebanese Forces (LF) the group that conducted the Israel organized massacre at Sabra-Shatilla (although led by Elie Hobeika, once Geagea's mentor, Geagea did not take part in the Sept. 1982 slaughter of 1,700 Palestinian and Lebanese).

3. The billionaire, Saudi Sheikh and Club president Saad Hariri leader of the Sunni Future Movement (FM).

Over a year ago Hariri's Future Movement started setting up Sunni Islamist terrorist cells (the PSP and LF already had their own militia since the civil war and despite the Taif Accords requiring militia to disarm they are now rearmed and itching for action and trying hard to provoke Hezbollah).

The FM created Sunni Islamist 'terrorist' cells were to serve as a cover for (anti-Hezbollah) Welch Club projects. The plan was that actions of these cells, of which Fatah el-Islam is one, could be blamed on al Qaeda or Syria or anyone but the Club.

To staff the new militias, FM rounded up remnants of previous extremists in the Palestinian Refugee camps that had been subdued, marginalized and diminished during the Syrian occupation of Lebanon. Each fighter got $700 per month, not bad in today's Lebanon.

The first Welch Club funded militia, set up by FM, is known locally as Jund-al-Sham (Soldiers of Sham, where "Sham" in Arabic denotes Syria, Lebanon, Palestine & Jordan) created in Ain-el-Hilwa Palestinian refugee camp near Sidon. This group is also referred to in the Camps as Jund-el-Sitt (Soldiers of the Sitt, where "Sitt" in Sidon, Ain-el-Hilwa and the outskirts pertain to Bahia Hariri, the sister of Rafiq Hariri, aunt of Saad, and Member of Parliament).

The second was Fateh-al-Islam (The name cleverly put together, joining Fateh as in Palestinian and the word Islam as in Qaeda). FM set this Club cell up in Nahr-al-Bared refugee camp north of Tripoli for geographical balance.

Fatah el-Islam had about 400 well paid fighters until three days ago. Today they may have more or fewer plus volunteers. The leaders were provided with ocean view luxury apartments in Tripoli where they stored arms and chilled when not in Nahr-al-Bared. Guess who owns the apartments?

According to members of both Fatah el-Islam and Jund-al-Sham their groups acted on the directive of the Club president, Saad Hariri. So what went wrong? "Why the bank robbery" and the slaughter at Nahr el-Baled?

According to operatives of Fatah el-Islam, the Bush administration got cold feet with people like Seymour Hirsh snooping around and with the White House post-Iraq discipline in free fall. Moreover, Hezbollah intelligence knew all about the Clubs activities and was in a position to flip the two groups who were supposed to ignite a Sunni *Shia civil war which Hezbollah vows to prevent.

Things started to go very wrong quickly for the Club last week.FM "stopped" the payroll of Fateh el-Islam's account at the Hariri family owned back.

Fateh-al-Islam, tried to negotiate at least 'severance pay' with no luck and they felt betrayed. (Remember many of their fighters are easily frustrated teenagers and their pay supports their families). Militia members knocked off the bank which issued their worthless checks. They were doubly angry when they learned FM is claiming in the media a loss much greater than they actually snatched and that the Club is going to stiff the insurance company and actually make a huge profit.

Lebanon's Internal Security Forces (newly recruited to serve the bidding of the Club and the Future Movement) assaulted the apartments of Fatah-al-Islam Tripoli. They didn't have much luck and were forced to call in the Lebanese army.

Within the hour, Fatah-al-Islam retaliated against Lebanese Army posts, checkpoints and unarmed, off-duty Lebanese soldiers in civilian clothing and committed outrageous killings including severing at four heads.

Up to this point Fatah-al-Islam did not retaliate against the Internal Security forces in Tripoli because the ISF is pro-Hariri and some are friends and Fatah al-Islam still hoped to get paid by Hariri. Instead Fatah al Islam went after the Army.

The Seniora cabinet convenes and asks the Lebanese Army to enter the refugee camp and silence (in more ways than one) Fatah-al-Islam. Since entrance into the Camps is forbidden by the 1969 Arab league agreement, the Army refuses after realizing the extent of the conspiracy against it by the Welch Club. The army knows that entering a refugee camp in force will open a front against the Army in all twelve Palestinian refugee camps and tear the army apart along sectarian cracks.

The army feels set up by the Club's Internal Security Forces which did not coordinate with the Lebanese Army, as required by Lebanese law and did not even make them aware of the "inter family operation" the ISF carried out against Fatah-al-Islam safe houses in Tripoli.

Today, tensions are high between the Lebanese army and the Welch Club. Some mention the phrase 'army coup'.

The Club is trying to run Parliament and is prepared to go all the way not to 'lose' Lebanon. It still holds 70 seats in the house of parliament while the Hezbollah led opposition holds 58 seats. It has a dutiful PM in Fouad Siniora.

The club tried to seize control of the presidency and when it failed it marginalized it. Last year it tried to control of the Parliamentary Constitutional Committee, which audits the government's policies, laws and watch dogs their actions. When the Club failed to control it they simply abolished the Constitutional Committee. This key committee no longer exists in Lebanon's government.

The Welch Club's major error was when it attempted to influence the Lebanese Army into disarming the Lebanese Resistance led by Hezbollah. When the Army wisely refused, the Club coordinated with the Bush Administration to pressure Israel to dramatically intensify its retaliation to the capture of the two soldiers by Hezbollah and 'break the rules' regarding the historically more limited response and try to destroy Hezbollah during the July 2006 war.

The Welch Club now considers the Lebanese Army a serious problem. The Bush administration is trying to undermine and marginalize it to eliminate one of the last two obstacles to implementing Israel's agenda in Lebanon.If the army is weakened, it can not protect _over 70% of the Christians in Lebanon who support General Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement. The F.P.M. is mainly constituted of well educated, middle class and unarmed Lebanese civilians. The only protection they have is the Lebanese Army which aids in maintaining their presence in the political scene.

The other type of Christians in Lebanon is the minority, about 15% of Christians associated with Geagea's Lebanese Forces who are purely militia. If the Club can weaken the Army even more than it is, then this Phalange minority will be the only relatively strong force on the Christian scene and become the "army" of the Club.

Another reason the Club wants to weaken the Lebanese Army is that the Army is nationalistic and is a safety valve for Lebanon to ensure the Palestinian right of return to Palestine, Lebanese nationhood and the resistance culture led by Hezbollah, with which is has excellent relations.

For their part, the Welch Club wants to keep some Palestinians in Lebanon for cheap labor, ship others to countries willing to take them (and be paid handsomely to do so by American taxpayers) and allow at most a few thousand to return to Palestine to settle the 'right of return' issue while at the same time signing a May 17th 1983 type treaty with Israel with enriches the Club members and gives Israel Lebanon's water and much of Lebanon's sovereignty.

Long story short, Fatah el-Islam must be silenced at all costs. Their tale, if told, is poison for the Club and its sponsors. We will likely see their attempted destruction in the coming days.

Hezbollah is watching and supporting the Lebanese army.
Franklin Lamb's recent book, The Price We Pay: A Quarter Century of Israel's use of American Weapon's against Lebanon (1978-2006) is available at Amazon.com.uk. Hezbollah: A Brief Guide for Beginners is expected in early summer.

Dr. Lamb can be reached at fplamb@gmail.com.

Source:
http://counterpunch.org/lamb05242007.html
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Keltoi
05-26-2007, 12:08 AM
Links to articles from Seymour Hersch are really wonderful and all...but I can find opinion pieces that backup anything I want from the internet. My information on Fatah al-Islam comes from these source, not an opinion piece.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...B5526CE911.htm

http://siteinstitute.org/bin/article...&Subcategory=0

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...-Militants.php

http://terrorism.about.com/od/groups...h_Al_Islam.htm

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...40032020070520
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Cognescenti
05-26-2007, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:/Peace To All

Subhan Allah. This is absolutely amazing.

Those governments didn't lift a finger to aid Lebanon and Hizbullah during Israel's last destructive bombardment of that nation. But now, those mighty "lions" of the Middle East have finally woken up from their slumber and decided that it was apprpriate to help the Lebanese government against this "mighty foe."

As for the Lebanese government, they won't defend Lebanese soil nor air space due to Israel's many violations; they didn't help Hizbullah in the last Israeli invasion; and they sat back as Israel destroyed it's infrastructure & kmurdered its civilians; But now, they have suddenly found their manhood to take on Palestinian refugees.

Isn't Fatah al-Islam, the same Sunni group Bush, Israel and some secular Arab government's recently & covertly armed to take on Hizbullah?
The Lebanese Army is in no shape to fight the IDF..nor do I think the Lebanese government as presently configured is in any hurry to help Hizbollah, which is, in effect, the quasi government of the quasi state of South Lebanon. There are many Lebanese who would be happy to be rid of the Syrians and Iranians. In fact, I suspect there are many that would be happy to see the Palestinians go away too.

Fatah al-Islam sound like a street gang that are ticked off because their checks bounced.

Mideast politics make my head hurt. It is amazing that Lebanon, which until recently, seemed to be a functioning goverment, now seems to be stumbling toward civil war again. I chiefly blame Iran for bringing in thousands of rockets and funding Hizbollah, who are now throwing around Iranian cash in South Lebanon to gain loyalties.

What a mess.
Reply

Zulkiflim
05-26-2007, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
The Lebanese Army is in no shape to fight the IDF..nor do I think the Lebanese government as presently configured is in any hurry to help Hizbollah, which is, in effect, the quasi government of the quasi state of South Lebanon. There are many Lebanese who would be happy to be rid of the Syrians and Iranians. In fact, I suspect there are many that would be happy to see the Palestinians go away too.

Fatah al-Islam sound like a street gang that are ticked off because their checks bounced.

Mideast politics make my head hurt. It is amazing that Lebanon, which until recently, seemed to be a functioning goverment, now seems to be stumbling toward civil war again. I chiefly blame Iran for bringing in thousands of rockets and funding Hizbollah, who are now throwing around Iranian cash in South Lebanon to gain loyalties.

What a mess.
Salaam,

I agree the Lebanese army are eak and becasue they are weak in arms they are weak in wills.

that is why when Lebanese are bing massacred by Isrealis bombing the US backed goverment just wept instead of fight.

Such pragmatism that their tear can stop the war only fool themselves.

In the end the people who fight against GREAT WEAPOSN sponsored by the US,are fell down by simple missiles.

The will to fight does not end when you run outm of bullets,it end when you die or your enemy is cpatured or killed.

Fight to the last breath for your own life land and love.
Inshallah...
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NobleMuslimUK
05-26-2007, 11:24 PM
:sl:
The Arab governments have chosen their masters as US and Israel, just like Pakistan has. What a shame. May Allah guide them or destroy them so badly (like the previous oppressive nations) along with their kuffar allies as an example and lesson for the whole of mankind. Ameen.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-26-2007, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
:sl:
The Arab governments have chosen their masters as US and Israel, just like Pakistan has. What a shame. May Allah guide them or destroy them so badly (like the previous oppressive nations) along with their kuffar allies as an example and lesson for the whole of mankind. Ameen.
Tell it brother! Tell it! That's right!
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
:sl:
The Arab governments have chosen their masters as US and Israel, just like Pakistan has. What a shame. May Allah guide them or destroy them so badly (like the previous oppressive nations) along with their kuffar allies as an example and lesson for the whole of mankind. Ameen.
Or maybe they chose not to side with bank robbing Islamic militants. :skeleton: :? :skeleton:
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NobleMuslimUK
05-27-2007, 12:38 AM
Its not about choosing sides, its about choosing who's orders you follow... They choose to follow man's orders more than Allah, truly they are losers.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Its not about choosing sides, its about choosing who's orders you follow... They choose to follow man's orders more than Allah, truly they are losers.
Surly you are not saying Allah approves of robbing banks. :?
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NobleMuslimUK
05-27-2007, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Surly you are not saying Allah approves of robbing banks. :?
Willber stop trying to twist what I say, and you know very well Allah swt doesnt approve of robbing.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Willber stop trying to twist what I say, and you know very well Allah swt doesnt approve of robbing.
So why do you say not siding with bank robbers is siding against Allah?
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-27-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
So why do you say not siding with bank robbers is siding against Allah?
siding with kaffir goverments/millitary like usa and israel is siding against Allah, and anyone who does so becomes an apostate under this verse:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

the word correctly translated should say allies/protectors, so basically muslims should not take jews and christians (usa & israel) as allies and if done so then whoever does it becomes of them, basically becomes a non muslim, and an apostate. so all these arab goverments are apostates according to this verse, well not all, syria is the only one i know off that isnt an ally to the usa, the rest are all sell out apostates.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
siding with kaffir goverments/millitary like usa and israel is siding against Allah, and anyone who does so becomes an apostate under this verse:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

the word correctly translated should say allies/protectors, so basically muslims should not take jews and christians (usa & israel) as allies and if done so then whoever does it becomes of them, basically becomes a non muslim, and an apostate. so all these arab goverments are apostates according to this verse, well not all, syria is the only one i know off that isnt an ally to the usa, the rest are all sell out apostates.
So Muslim bank robbers are better than Kaffir governments? :skeleton:
If that is what you think then you probably don't need to worry about taking Jews or Christians as friends. Few people who like bank robbers have friends that aren’t robbers. :?
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Sami Zaatari
05-27-2007, 01:33 AM
stop repeating urself 10 times, muslims shudnt side with kaffirs PERIOD, ur like a broken record with ur bank robbery BS. get it through ur head muslims CANT make allies with kaffirs. the muslims have the right to stop robbers, in Islam we chop their hands off incase u didnt know, but fighting robbers doesnt mean we go call kaffirs for help.

and stop twisting words, no one said we choose bank robbers over kaffirs, we say no kaffir allies EVER, so stop twisting and playing games, the Quran says dont take u as allies, who said anything about taking robbers as allies over kaffirs? the point is kaffirs shudnt be ever taken as an ally, case closed.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
stop repeating urself 10 times, muslims shudnt side with kaffirs PERIOD, ur like a broken record with ur bank robbery BS. get it through ur head muslims CANT make allies with kaffirs. the muslims have the right to stop robbers, in Islam we chop their hands off incase u didnt know, but fighting robbers doesnt mean we go call kaffirs for help.

and stop twisting words, no one said we choose bank robbers over kaffirs, we say no kaffir allies EVER, so stop twisting and playing games, the Quran says dont take u as allies, who said anything about taking robbers as allies over kaffirs? the point is kaffirs shudnt be ever taken as an ally, case closed.
Repeating myself? I keep asking different questions. And it is becoming clearer.
It is better to side with bank robbing Muslims than to side with a good non-Muslims. :skeleton: Non-Muslims have no right to defend themselves from criminals if they are Muslims. :skeleton:
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Sami Zaatari
05-27-2007, 01:43 AM
who said this had anything to do with non muslims getting hurt? what in the heck are you on about?

and no one here said anyone should side with muslim bank robbers, the lebanease goverment has the right to fight robbers, as robbery is un-islamic and punished by cutting the hands off, what we are saying is that they shouldnt get help from kaffirs, they should do the work themselves, no need to go get help from kaffirs because it is FORBIDDEN in the Quran to have kaffir allies, now do you understand? stop making things up and putting words in ppl's mouths, no one here said we should side with bank robbers.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
who said this had anything to do with non muslims getting hurt? what in the heck are you on about?

and no one here said anyone should side with muslim bank robbers, the lebanease goverment has the right to fight robbers, as robbery is un-islamic and punished by cutting the hands off, what we are saying is that they shouldnt get help from kaffirs, they should do the work themselves, no need to go get help from kaffirs because it is FORBIDDEN in the Quran to have kaffir allies, now do you understand? stop making things up and putting words in ppl's mouths, no one here said we should side with bank robbers.
It is just logical conclusion to what you and NobleMuslimUK keep saying.
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Sami Zaatari
05-27-2007, 01:56 AM
no it isnt a logical conclusion at all, i said its forbidden to take kaffirs as allies, thats all, the goverment has the right to fight the robbers, they dont have the right to side with kaffirs, thats all, so your logical conclusion is based on paranoia, and your anti-muslim sentiment, thats all since no where did me nor noble make any such hint as to say we support these robbers, you made this up in your head because of your as i said paranoia and anti-muslim sentiment.

how does saying we shouldnt take kaffirs as allies means we support bank robbers, that really beats me.
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Sami Zaatari
05-27-2007, 01:59 AM
and lol what is so funny is you act like the american goverment themselves are not robbers! lol thats the most interesting fact of all, everyone knows the american government is one of the biggest theif on this planet, but thats another topic, but just thought id mention it since u seem to act like fatah al islam are the robbers only.
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don532
05-27-2007, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari
no it isnt a logical conclusion at all, i said its forbidden to take kaffirs as allies, thats all, the goverment has the right to fight the robbers, they dont have the right to side with kaffirs, thats all, so your logical conclusion is based on paranoia, and your anti-muslim sentiment, thats all since no where did me nor noble make any such hint as to say we support these robbers, you made this up in your head because of your as i said paranoia and anti-muslim sentiment.

how does saying we shouldnt take kaffirs as allies means we support bank robbers, that really beats me.
There was a discussion on this issue in a comparative religion thread a while ago. I have looked, but cannot find the thread. If I remember correctly, (I think Woodrow pointed this out) this should be interpreted as Muslims should not prefer the friendship of non-muslims, or choose them over muslims. It was not to mean that a muslim should never under any circumstances have a relationship or alliance with a non muslim.
Reply

wilberhum
05-27-2007, 05:59 AM
Sami posted an article entitled “U.S., Arabs rush military aid to Lebanon” but he titled the thread “Arab Governments sending weapons/equipment to Lebanon”. He also adds a line to the front as if it was part of the article. The Arab rulers never cease to expose their hypocrisy and kufr: Now maybe there was no intent to deceive, but I was.
He seems to be offended because the US and Arabs did not assist when Israel attacked. But as I remember that was Hezbollah vs. Israel. Or maybe that is just my perspective. Never the less, it leaves the implication that if a government does not act as Sami thinks is right, they never have any right to do what is right in the future. I guess somehow governments of the world are going to need reach perfection, at least in Sami’s eyes, or never act again.

Let’s not forget how this conflict started. Some bank robbers fled into the Nahr el-Bared camp. When the Lebanon military entered the camp, Fatah Islam, militant group, open fired on the military. So the bank robbers were part of Fatah Islam, or Fatah Islam is protecting bank robbers.

I found it most interesting some of the remarks that followed. In fact I found it so interesting that I want to quote some of they said and add comments.

Zamn said:
But now, they have suddenly found their manhood to take on Palestinian refugees.
One of the things I see quite often is changing the facts to suit your argument. The Lebanon’s military are not taking on the “Palestinian refugees” they are taking on bank robbers and there protectors. Not quite the same.

Zulkiflim said
Fight to the last breath for your own life land and love.
What? These are Palestinians in Lebanon, not their land. And Love, is that love for bank robbers? Life, there was no need for loss of live. That only occurred when Fatah Islam open fire on the Lebanon army. The only ones that should have been in danger were the bank robbers.

NobleMuslimUK
The Arab governments have chosen their masters as US and Israel
So I guess he thinks it is wrong for stronger governments to help Lebanon capture bank robbers. Of course there is Israel included. Now really, is Israel sending arms? I think not. Just another case of misstating the facts to support your stance.
May Allah guide them or destroy them so badly (like the previous oppressive nations) along with their kuffar allies
So he wants Allah to destroy the Lebanese government and those that help them capture bank robbers. I can only conclude that he thinks Allah should support bank robbers. I hardly think that is the stance of Islam.
Its not about choosing sides, its about choosing who's orders you follow... They choose to follow man's orders more than Allah, truly they are losers.
Here he seems to clarify that Allah orders people to protect bank robbers. Now that is surly not Islamic. At least proper Islamic.

In response to some of Sami statements:
these men arent al-qaeda
Yet the article that he used called them “al-Qaida-inspired Islamic militants”. Of course you would not know that unless you read the article because Sami failed to copy that part. I guess he sees a great difference between being al-Qaida and al-Qaida-inspired and having the same agenda. He goes on and on about that, but I see little difference. I think most people think of al-Qaida more as an ideology than as a group. I know I do.
Fatah al Islam's goals are to only fight israel and establish islamic law in palestinian camps
If that is the “Whole Truth”, then why are they fighting the Lebanon army to protect bank robbers? It would seem to me that Shari Law would not condone killing people to protect bank robbers.
siding with kaffir goverments/millitary like usa and israel is siding against Allah
So here he makes it quite clear, at least to me, that accepting help from non-Muslim countries is standing against Allah. So it is better to allow bank robbers to get away than let a non-Muslim country help. That sure seems to me like he thinks bank robbers are better than non-Muslims. Well I don’t know what Allah thinks, so I guess I will leave that up to people that know Allah better. But he does support his stance by quoting.
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.
Then he goes on to imply that all of Lebanon are apostates because they accepted the US and Israel support. But here again we know that Israel is not helping. Just another of the many cases of making false statements to gain support for your opinion.
muslims shudnt side with kaffirs PERIOD
It seems Muslims should never help or accept help from non-Muslims. So even if there is a common good, Muslims should never assist or receive assistance.
t
hey shouldnt get help from kaffirs, they should do the work themselves,
But they are not strong enough to defeat them without help. So I colluded that he thinks it would be better to be defeated by those that support bank robbing than accept help from a non-Muslim.
your anti-muslim sentiment
I guess since I don’t support bank robbing he thinks I’m anti-Muslim. The reverse of that is obvious, he the thinks Muslims support bank robbing.

It has been a really bazaar thread.

And of course he ends with the standard “Your momma is uglier than my momma” rebuttals.
ol what is so funny is you act like the american goverment themselves are not robbers!
I wonder what his attitude would be about a non-Muslim fireman saving him from a burning house. :skeleton:
Reply

Philosopher
05-27-2007, 06:02 AM
This thread reeks of stupidity. The Muslims here need to take their share of the blame for the world's problems.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-27-2007, 07:02 AM
I have what I think is a truly Solomonic solution.

They need only rob a Kaffir bank and all is well, right? If it is part of the Jewish banking cabal then even better.

BTW...are there really any Islamic banks? I thought there was a Koranic proscription against usury?

BTW (II)...this idea that the Lebanese government is a US puppet is laughable. What percentage of the Lebanese Parliament are Hizbollah? It is not an insubstantial number.
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KAding
05-27-2007, 12:04 PM
The Muslim world will not know development and prosperity as long as it is ravaged by these private militias. How can any Muslim country ever become stable and progress if the state doesn't even have sovereignty and control over its territory.
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Zman
05-27-2007, 04:42 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Gen. Dayton Admits US Is Helping Fatah

By HILARY LEILA KRIEGER,
JERUSALEM POST CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON
May. 27, 2007 0:55
Updated: May. 27, 2007 3:06

As violence raged this week in the Gaza Strip between Hamas and Fatah, US officials stressed the importance of American efforts to bolster forces loyal to the latter and said further help was necessary.

"This chaotic situation is why the USSC [United States security coordinator] is focused on the legal, legitimate security forces in our attempts to reestablish law and order," said Lt.-Gen. Keith Dayton, the USCC working with the Palestinians, in testimony Wednesday before the House Subcommittee on the Middle East. But he added, "The legal security forces of the Palestinian president still lack what they need to achieve … law and order."

The State Department has in the past denied that America's non-lethal training of the presidential guard of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah - largely aimed at securing the Karni border crossing and protecting Abbas and other VIPs - amounted to the US taking sides in Fatah's fight with Hamas.

But at the hearing Dayton highlighted the US role in helping Fatah as it faces attacks from the Islamic radicals in Hamas.

"We are leading, through the acts of this Congress, the international effort to possibly affect this worrisome situation," he said. "The security assistance plan that you have authorized me to just begin to implement is pointing the way forward for all international and regional allies."

Congress recently allowed $59 million to be used to further Dayton's efforts at training the presidential guard of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah.

The money, however, didn't go through the normal appropriation process, as the White House took previously approved funds and simply reallocated them.

Dayton pushed the case for further US assistance to the Palestinian guard, despite months of efforts on the ground that have seemed to have little effect against the well-disciplined and well-supplied Hamas.

"We are entering a rough patch," Dayton acknowledged, "but all is not lost and our regional partners share that sentiment. However, it is critical that those who support the legitimate authority and forces represented by President Abbas receive the critical assistance they need."

Dayton is visiting the US from Israel, where he is based, and testified before the Middle East subcommittee at the behest of its chairman, Gary Ackerman (D-New York).

In response to a question about Israel's security raised by subcommittee ranking member Mike Pence (R-Indiana), Dayton assured the members, "Nothing we do to strengthen the Palestinian's security capability will be targeted against Israel … The presidential guard will not become a threat to Israel."

Source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ticle/ShowFull
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Keltoi
05-27-2007, 04:45 PM
It's no secret that the U.S. would rather deal with Abbas and Fatah than Hamas.
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
05-27-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
It's no secret that the U.S. would rather deal with Abbas and Fatah than Hamas.
Its amazing how you defend the terrorist plots and activities of the Bush regime. Zionists dont care about you or America they just want to leech for their own good.
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wilberhum
05-27-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Its amazing how you defend the terrorist plots and activities of the Bush regime. Zionists dont care about you or America they just want to leech for their own good.
Where did he defend the "terrorist plots"? :rollseyes
And still are we talking Israel/Zionists? :?
They have nothing to do with the situation. :skeleton:
Is this just your standard, naming Israel justifies anything? :raging:
Reply

snakelegs
05-28-2007, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
:sl:
The Arab governments have chosen their masters as US and Israel, just like Pakistan has. What a shame. May Allah guide them or destroy them so badly (like the previous oppressive nations) along with their kuffar allies as an example and lesson for the whole of mankind. Ameen.
in all fairness, do you think pakistan really had a choice?
Reply

Trumble
05-28-2007, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
BTW...are there really any Islamic banks? I thought there was a Koranic proscription against usury?
Plenty. There are more ways to make money from money than earning and charging interest on it.

For example, one way a 'mortgage' can be arranged is thus;

  1. You find the house you want, and agree the price in the normal way.
  2. The bank (not you) pays that price.
  3. The bank then sells the house to you at a higher price.
  4. You pay the bank an initial deposit and the balance in installments in the usual way.


Of course, the difference between what the bank pays the vendor and what you pay the bank is determined principally by the duration of the repayment term, so the more cynical may say that it amounts to 'interest' in everything but name, but it seems the difference is sufficient to fall within Islamic law.

Another alternative is renting the house from the bank, rather than buying it. You pay monthly rent, plus a contribution towards buying the house when the term of the lease expires. Again, you could argue that the 'rent' is also no more than interest under other name, but again it seems satisfactory under Islamic law.

Islamic banking is increasingly popular in the UK, and (surprisingly) not just with muslims. It seems Islamic banks offer much better customer service than regular ones, which must say something! .. and a lot of the regular banks are now offering 'Islamic' alternatives, too. I think first option in particular is a pretty smart choice, particularly when generally rising interest rates means the banks aren't too keen on long-term fixed rate deals; in this case they have no choice as there is no other way of arranging it.
Reply

Cognescenti
05-28-2007, 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Plenty. There are more ways to make money from money than earning and charging interest on it.

For example, one way a 'mortgage' can be arranged is thus;

  1. You find the house you want, and agree the price in the normal way.
  2. The bank (not you) pays that price.
  3. The bank then sells the house to you at a higher price.
  4. You pay the bank an initial deposit and the balance in installments in the usual way.


Of course, the difference between what the bank pays the vendor and what you pay the bank is determined principally by the duration of the repayment term, so the more cynical may say that it amounts to 'interest' in everything but name, but it seems the difference is sufficient to fall within Islamic law.

Another alternative is renting the house from the bank, rather than buying it. You pay monthly rent, plus a contribution towards buying the house when the term of the lease expires. Again, you could argue that the 'rent' is also no more than interest under other name, but again it seems satisfactory under Islamic law.

Islamic banking is increasingly popular in the UK, and (surprisingly) not just with muslims. It seems Islamic banks offer much better customer service than regular ones, which must say something! .. and a lot of the regular banks are now offering 'Islamic' alternatives, too. I think first option in particular is a pretty smart choice, particularly when generally rising interest rates means the banks aren't too keen on long-term fixed rate deals; in this case they have no choice as there is no other way of arranging it.
Pretty clever...seems like a dodge, however. Isn't the "buyer" expected to make some kind of "down payment"?
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Zulkiflim
05-28-2007, 05:59 AM
Originally Posted by Philosopher
This thread reeks of stupidity. The Muslims here need to take their share of the blame for the world's problems.
Salaam,

Will the west ever accept they started it?

LOL nver..
Reply

wilberhum
05-28-2007, 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Will the west ever accept they started it?

LOL nver..
Started what? Protecting bank robbers?
Reply

KAding
05-28-2007, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Will the west ever accept they started it?

LOL nver..
Started what? Conquering Muslim lands? :exhausted
Reply

Cognescenti
05-28-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Started what? Conquering Muslim lands? :exhausted

Yes...this guy started it..Ferdinand the V. The cheeky fellow had the nerve to take back Castilla from the Moors.


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NobleMuslimUK
05-28-2007, 09:22 PM
We muslims leave it to Allah swt, what is beyond our control, we pray and hope for the best from Allah swt, even in a bad situation.

May Allah swt guide us all.Ameen.
Reply

wilberhum
05-28-2007, 09:32 PM
We muslims leave it to Allah
I don't think they left the bank robbing to Allah.
Reply

Chuck
05-29-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is just logical conclusion to what you and NobleMuslimUK keep saying.
Logically that is a strawman and non sequitur. In other words, you are making a logical fallacy.
Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if the conclusion does not follow from the premise. In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise. All formal fallacies are specific types of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition.

Here are two types of non sequitur of traditional noteworthiness:

1) Any argument that takes the following form is a non sequitur:

If A is true, then B is true.
B is stated to be true.
Therefore, A must be true.
Even if the premises and conclusion are all true, the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. This sort of non sequitur is also called affirming the consequent.

An example of affirming the consequent would be:

If I am a human (A) then I am a mammal. (B)
I am a mammal. (B)
Therefore, I am a human. (A)
"I" could be another type of mammal without being a human. While the conclusion may be true, it does not follow from the premises. This argument is still a fallacy even if the conclusion is true. It is a non sequitur (note that it is the exact same argument form as in example 1 - the form is always a non sequitur).

2) Another common non sequitur is this:

If A then B. (e.g., If I am in Tokyo, I am in Japan.)
Not A. (e.g., I am not in Tokyo.)
Therefore, not B. (e.g., Therefore, I am not in Japan.)
The speaker could be anywhere else in Japan. This sort of non sequitur is called denying the antecedent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
Reply

Sami Zaatari
05-29-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don't think they left the bank robbing to Allah.
you and your stupid bank robbing, how you keep repeating it as if its the end of the world. last i checked your country invaded an enitre nation based on a lie, based on made up facts and propaganda, and you want to keep going on about a bank robbery which happens normally in the usa? so instead of concerning yourself so much and repeating yourself so many times on bank robbery it would be better if you gave the same repetition and attention to your goverments illegal war against iraq.

now dont tell me heyyyyyyyy its the thread topic, because you dont have to repeat yourself 10 times in one thread about the same issue, people understood you the first time, you go on about it like ohhhhhh myyyyyyyyyy a bank robbery!!!!!!!!! its the end!!!!!!!!!!! and secondly, the bank robbery has nothing to do with the topic, i dont care if fatah Islam went and stole chickens, the thread topic is related to the arab goverments hypocrisy for sending weapons and aid when they did nothing for lebanon while israel bombed it non stop, nor do they aid the palestinians in the same way, hence the thread was made and as the title shows to expose the arab goverments hypocrisy.
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 09:02 PM
you and your stupid bank robbing, how you keep repeating it
Becaused what caused
Arab Governments sending weapons/equipment to Lebanon
I have to keep repeating it because you won't stay on topic.
Reply

Zman
05-30-2007, 02:33 AM
:sl:/Peace To All

Bush's New Middle East

By Mike Whitney
05/29/07
InformationClearingHouse


" ... under the sky
without hope
the self inside me dies ...

I will always be from nowhere
Without a face, without a history
from nowhere."

"Traveler without Luggage" by Abdul-Wahab Al-Bayyati
It's hard to know what Bush hopes to accomplish by backing the bloody siege of the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, but one thing is certain; things are never as they seem.

In an interview on Democracy Now last week, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh stated that, Fatah al-Islam---the group of Sunni extremists inside the camp--were getting material support from the Saudis, the Bush administration and members of the Lebanese political establishment.

So, The Bush Administration Is Supporting Terrorism?


That's right. Sy Hersh put it like this:

"The idea was to provide them (Fatah al-Islam) with some arms and some money and some basic equipment so -- these are small units, a couple hundred people. There were three or four around the country given the same help covertly, the goal being they would be potential enemies of Hezbollah in case of warfare".
But if Fatah-al-Islam is an American-Saudi creation than why is the Bush administration shipping weapons to Lebanon to help kill them?

Is this is another example of "blowback"---the unintended consequences of a misguided foreign policy?

Yes and no.

While it is true that the US uses terrorist organizations to further its policy objectives (The US supported Bin Laden in Afghanistan, the KLA in Kosovo, the Mujahedin Klaq in Iran) the situation in Lebanon is a bit more complex.

Fatah al-Islam is comprised of Sunni radicals who were recruited from the other Gulf States to counterbalance Hezbollah. Now, it appears, they have outlived their usefulness and the Lebanese warlords have decided to eliminate them.


According to independent journalist Franklin Lamb, who is reporting from the battered Bedawi refugee camp, the charges against the group are purely fabricated.

"There was no bank robbery" and "no heads were cut off".

The allegations in the western press were merely a pretext for restarting the fighting.

The siege of Nahr al-Bared is probably just Phase 2 of Israel's 34 Day War--- a conflict in which "Israel's air force, armed with U.S.-manufactured and -fueled F-16s, went on a rampage with more than 14 combat missions every single hour of the war, destroying, among other things, 73 bridges, 400 miles of roads, 25 gas stations, 900 commercial structures, two hospitals, 350 schools and 15,000 Lebanese homes." (Dahr Jamail)
The US-Israeli goals in Lebanon have never really changed. Israel wants a reliable client to its North and access to Lebanon's water supplies. They also want to crush their main enemy, Hezbollah, the Shiite resistance organization which has routed the IDF twice in the last 15 years.

Bush, on the other hand, is trying to destabilize the entire region using the madcap neocon strategy of "creative destruction".

He thinks that if he can erase the traditional borders and create a fragmented Middle East, the transnational corporations will be able to control the region's vast resources.

Washington's allies in Beirut like the idea, too. Walid Jumblat, Sa'ad Hariri and Prime Minister Fuad Siniora"all believe that the outbreak of violence will only strengthen them politically.

Siniora "The Lionhearted"

It's interesting to watch how eager Siniora is to bomb of a defenseless refugee camp, when just months ago he was too afraid to deploy troops to the south of Lebanon to fight the invading Israeli army. Why is that?

Siniora showed his true colors during the 34 Day War. At one point he was photographed sipping tea with Condi Rice while Lebanese civilians in the south were being pelted with American-made bombs dropped from American-made F-16s.

The Prime Minister has proved that he is every bit as worthy of Washington's praise as Karzai in Afghanistan or Abbas in Palestine.

But there's another reason for the present siege of Nahr al-Bared besides Siniora's newfound courage, that is, NATO wants to clear the area for another military airbase.
According to the Lebanese newspaper Al-Diyar:

"NATO has decided to join the Lebanese territories to North-African & African coast military region, to establish Military airbases". ... .

"American-German-Turkish military delegation toured and surveyed Akkar region, reported to the NATO headquarter in Brussels, mentioning that the military bases will contribute to the development and the economic recovery in the region, advising the government to focus on the financial aspect and positive reflection on the population of the region, giving the bases a name "Lebanese Army and Security training centre".
So, it looks like northern Lebanon has been chosen as the site for further NATO expansion in the Middle East.

That means that NATO-planners must have agreed on a credible justification for evacuating the people who presently occupy the land. That's where Fatah al Islam comes in.

The hobgoblin of terrorism always provides the perfect excuse for state sanctioned violence
---in this case the group is being used to conceal a massive ethnic cleansing operation.


Iraqi poet and blogger Layla Anwar made these comments about the situation in Iraq, but they can be easily applied to Nahr al-Bared as well.

She says:

"If you want to reconstruct a country, you need to eliminate its people and start anew right?

Like restoring the virginity to the land so you can build better and stronger fortresses. A brand new Iraq with a brand new population. A total Babel makeover.

You know, like the ones you see on these American TV reality shows. Revamped, relooked, redone...beyond recognition".

(Layla Anwar, "Aliens in Babel" An Arab Woman's Blues)
Anwar is right.

The siege of Nahr al-Bared is an attempt "to eliminate people and start anew" by pushing 30 or 40 thousand Palestinians out of their homes and onto the streets so their foreign overlords can "build a stronger fortress".

It is a tragedy and the Bush administration has only added to the crime by providing arms and equipment to the Lebanese Army.


According to the U.K. Guardian:

"The United States has sent planeloads of arms and ammunition for the Lebanese army, as tension grows around the besieged refugee camp in the north of the country. The weapons were welcomed by members of the Lebanese government, who said they wanted the army equipped "to the teeth" in the face of threats of renewed violence."
The siege of Nahr al-Bared follows a familiar pattern that we have seen in Gaza, Falluja, Tel Afar and Samarra.
The camp has been surrounded and cut off, snipers have been positioned on the rooftops, civilian areas have been shelled with impunity, and the bodies of the dead have been left to rot on the streets.

Sound Familiar?

It should.

These are the basic contours of the Bush Doctrine as it is applied to the (remaining) independent states in the Middle East.

The options for the victims are always the same: One can either pack up and find shelter in another filthy refugee-hovel or stay home and die. There's no other choice.
It's easy to see why the number of refugees in the region has swollen to more than 4 million people in just a few years.

Most of them are the victims of US aggression in Iraq, but the trend is now spreading to Lebanon.

Is this what Condi Rice meant when she announced the "birth pangs" of a "New Middle East"---a humanitarian crisis extending from the Mediterranean to the Caucuses?

Many people are wondering why the United Nations has remained silent while Bush ships more weapons to the frontlines and the Lebanese Army continues to pound away at the most densely populated area in the Middle East.

Is it because the UN has become a rubber stamp for US-Israeli colonial ambitions in the region?

Face it; the UN's role is to feign concern for human rights while the US and its allies pursue their imperial goals.

It's only gotten worse under the newly-appointed Secretary General, Ban Ki Moon. Moon has shown that he's incapable of being evenhanded and that he's little more than an American stooge. With less than a year in office, his credibility is already shot.

The only bright spot in this latest American-made catastrophe is the courage demonstrated by the victims.


As Franklin Lamb says in his latest article "Inside Nahr el-Bared: Another Waco in the making":

"Amazing examples of humanity are happening here. There are many family connections between the two camps. Kids distribute and water bread when it arrives in cars from Beirut and elsewhere. Young girls picking up and caring for babies of people they don't know, helping old people find a place to sit and listen to them when they tell of what happened. I could be wrong but I have rarely witnessed the solidarity among people as I see here with the Palestinians. Clean, smart, patient, charming, funny, and caring toward one another-determined to return to Palestine."
Even though they've lost their homes, the Palestinians have raised themselves above the squalor and cruelty of their predicament and shown selflessness and bravery.

That's a powerful statement about the affects of culture and national identity.

As the Palestinian poet Mahmud Darwish says in his poem "Passport":

"My nationality resides in the hearts of all the people,
So go ahead and remove my passport!"

Mike Whitney lives in Washington state. He can be reached at: fergiewhitney@msn.com

Source:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17788.htm
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 02:39 AM
Zman,
So is it fair to say that you think the bank robbers should not be perused and they should be given safe haven in the camp?
Reply

Zman
05-30-2007, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Zman,
So is it fair to say that you think the bank robbers should not be perused and they should be given safe haven in the camp?

If they did rob a bank, then they most definietly should be persued. But, this is a police/law enforcement matter, not a military one.

Sending in the army and shelling the camp with artillery rounds and causing a mini-refugee crisis isn't an intelligent response.

Each refugee camp has it's Palestinian armed security teams, PLO guys, and Palestinian Islamic fighters. They would know better on how to deal with these guys, there whereabouts, conduct a better "surgical strike" than the Lebanese military can ever do.

If they are truly guilty, then punish the culprits, not the innocent residents of the camp.

If Fatah al-Islam are pawns to higher powers, then, we'll be facing a serious problem...
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 03:57 AM
Zman

If they did rob a bank
I always love the "If" stuff when talking about facts.
Sending in the army and shelling the camp with artillery rounds and causing a mini-refugee crisis isn't an intelligent response.
Isn't an intelligent response to what? I think it is an appropriate response to armed group attacks. Don't put "B" before "A". The army was fired upon first.
Each refugee camp has it's Palestinian armed security teams,
And what action have they taken?
If they are truly guilty, then punish the culprits, not the innocent residents of the camp.
Wouldn't it be nice if justice could so easley be served up.
If Fatah al-Islam are pawns to higher powers, then, we'll be facing a serious problem.
I truly think we'll be facing a serious problem.
Reply

Zman
05-30-2007, 05:05 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Lebanon: Hizbullah's Controversial Move To Aid Nahr el Bared Camp

By Prof. Rami Zurayk
Monday, 28 May 2007, 9:21 amk
Scoop

The past 48 hours were very eventful in Lebanon, and set the stage to what promises to be a critical development in the protracted Lebanese conflict. The most important political event was the TV address by Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah on the Occasion of Liberation Day, which commemorates the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon on May 25, 2000.

Nasrallah made many significant points, which deserve to be analyzed at length because they provide an insight on the possible evolution of the political and security situation in the country and in the region.


However, the crux of the speech, which he left for the very last, was his clear statement of the position of Hizbullah vis a vis the siege of the Palestinian camp of Nahr el Bared and the events surrounding it.

Nasrallah unequivocally stated that, for Hizbullah, the army was extremely important, as it is the last "impartial" institution in the country (the quotes are mine), and that the breakdown of the army would inevitably lead to the political meltdown of Lebanon. He declared the army a "red line".

But Nasrallah also went on to indicate that the Palestinians in Lebanon were another "red line", in clear reference to the shelling by the army of the Nahr el Bared Palestinian camp and the ensuing exodus of tens of thousands of people to the neighboring Beddawi camp, where they live today in squalid conditions.

By equating the army with the Palestinians in Lebanon, Nasrallah went out on a limb, and put his party, the Shi'a, and the whole opposition in a vulnerable position. The army expressed its dismay at Nasrallah's position, and the government forces were quick to react by accusing Hizbullah of purposely weakening the army, and of standing on the side of "foreigners" against the Lebanese.

In the currently divided Lebanon, the army has become a key player, as the two opponents (government and opposition) line up their pawns for a further set of their power game. The army has so far remained a wild card, but has been leaning more towards the opposition than towards the Government. It is not sure how Hizbullah's statement will be translated by the army's leadership. It is also unclear what this will mean in terms of realignment, especially in light of the significant military aid the army has recently received from the US and the other US-aligned Arab countries.

Clearly, Nasrallah has taken a very risky step. Nasrallah's statement was received with much relief by the population in the Palestinian camps. It provided a much needed political, human and moral support at a time where being Palestinian in Lebanon is a real curse. People in the camps felt that someone with political weight in Lebanon was finally interceding in their favor, and that their human rights situation might slightly improve.
Few Lebanese fully perceive the extent of the hardship under which the Palestinian live in Lebanon. Many have for them a particularly vicious form of racist hatred.

Others see them as an annoyance and a potential source of trouble. But most of the time, when they are quietly tucked into their camps, they are simply disregarded. In Lebanon, there are 400,000 people (one tenth of the population) living under extreme material and human hardship, which have completely slipped out of the ethical radar. Lebanon, a nation always praising itself on its significant contribution to "civilization", lives in denial of their existence.

Except when the injustice spills out of the camps into their own little world.

The events taking place in the Nahr el Bared camp have revealed the extent of the discrimination to which Palestinians are subjected in Lebanon . The fighting between the Lebanese army and Fateh al Islam, a small group of radical Islamic militants of various nationalities, has resulted in the army siege of the camp of Nahr el Bbared (40,000 people) for 7 days and counting, its indiscriminate shelling in order to dislodge the militiamen, and the displacement of up to 20,000 people.

The displaced have sought refuge in the neighboring camp of Beddawi, creating a human tragedy in which poverty is compounded by displacement. In the Beddawi camp, the poor have now to cater for the need of the poorer, in overcrowded conditions where deprivation and destitution have become the norm. And while, in the past 5 days there has been an exponential increase in the number of camera-happy media types invading people's privacy far beyond what is reasonably acceptable for a fair coverage, this has not translated into an equivalent amplification of humanitarian aid.

Some Grassroot groups from Beirut and the Beddawi camp, however, have been quick to move.

Since the first day of the fighting, small groups that were active during the displaced crisis caused by the Israeli war on Lebanon of July 2006, have regrouped and started to organize, raise funds, purchase essential goods and deliver them to the 6,000 families of refugees in the Beddawi camp, as well as to the 350 families that have reached the Beirut camps of Shatila and Burj el Barajneh. However, the fund raising and logistical capabilities of these groups are very limited, and fall very short of addressing the needs of all. Their spending capacity is of a few thousands of dollars per day, while the needs are in the order of several hundreds of thousands of dollars per day. I work with one of these groups, the Nahr el Bared Relief Campaign
( www.nahrelbareddonations.blogspot.com ).

Besides the grassroots groups and the slow moving giants, political aid is also being received by the camp refugees. The Future Movement of Mr. Hariri has been a donor, although its aid has been focusing on strengthening the grip of the PLO Fatah movement, aligned with Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, on the camps population. Moreover, in a move to support its statement with actions, Hizbullah sent yesterday a convoy of 12 trucks of essential goods. It is unclear which Palestinian side was at the receiving end, but it was not our local grassroot partners.

*******

Rami Zurayk is a Professor of Ecosystem Management, American University of Beirut. The opinions expressed in this article are personal and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the American University of Beirut. Interested in food, farming and rural society?

You can view more of Prof. Zurayk's work at http://www.landandpeople.blogspot.com/

Source:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0705/S00465.htm
Reply

wilberhum
05-30-2007, 07:19 PM
Zman,
Did you miss my questions?
Reply

Zman
05-30-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Zman,
Did you miss my questions?

I've answered your previous question. Then, you asked and answered your own questions, in your response to my answer...
Reply

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