for mature theists only

[جوري]

After reflection why have you concluded (there is a G-D)!
for me it wasn't one thing in particular but a series of events most of them actually science related.
I'll put just a miniscule one for instance, one that hardly ever crosses the minds of people at least not unless you are actively working in that particular field as a geneticist, or a neonatologist or in the least a biochemist ...
something like a carnitine shuttle deficiency for instance: [Carnitine transports long-chain acyl groups from fatty acids into the mitochondrial matrix so they can be oxidized for energy} in a nutshell to have a carnitine shuttle deficiency would be incompatible with life, thus leading me to believe that what ever "forces" that allowed this process take place had to have it correct the very first time around, else life as we know it would have ceased to exist. You can have one lucky hit, but a million lucky hits? carnitine shuttle deficiency is something no one thinks about, as there are multitudes of inborn errors of metabolism that could potentially go on but DON'T--that would be incompatible with life, in this case in particular a neonate would present with something like persistent hypotonia and respiratory distress since there is no way for liver to make glucose for cells like RBC's and brain cells who are totally dependent only on Glucose for survival...in a matter of day if not hours this infant would expire...

Biochemical enzymes are required to maintain homeostasis-- and one of the great number of biochemical reactions that must be enzymatically carried out for normal metabolism for survival and have the ability to thrive as in persistently working properly every day!
An enzyme defect in any pathway (e.g., Krebs cycle, urea cycle, oxidative phosphorylation, etc. etc. etc) will potentially result in a condition that is incompatible with life...

anyone working in research knows what grave difficulty there is in making one (cDNA) from a mature mRNA template as an example, and can appreciate that no " energy" or "mother nature" or a "zero dividing" can will a million perfect coincidences into taking affect.
Life in many ways is a miracle, it is almost supernatural it is in many ways beyond conception... There is magic in everything, if one would allow on self to be entranced by all its beauty and intricacies not just in the human body but the universe as a whole... one after much reflection can only marvel at the magistrate of the creator and say Sobhanak rabbi, sobhan Alkhaliq alwahab

thank you and I look forward to your stories of reflection.. pls don't tell me I am Muslim/Christian/ Jew/Zoroastrian, because I was born that way, I am not asking about your religion, I am asking about what had led you to believe in G-D!

:w:

[wilberhum]

1) As a child: My Momma and Daddy told so.
2) As an adult: A first cause makes sense to me.

[جوري]

Are you a mature theist? I really don't want to waste web space on psychobabble-- I want to read other people's stories and learn from their experiences--
thank you

[wilberhum]

Are you a mature theist? I really don't want to waste web space on psychobabble-- I want to read other people's stories and learn from their experiences--
thank you

Well maybe at 61 I'm going into a second child hood. :skeleton:
But I must admit I don't have your great brilliance. :?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[snakelegs]

i was not raised in any religion and did not concern myself with god one way or the other until fairly recent years. it was really the more i learned about nature, the more in awe i felt of it. lotsa stuff like habitat niches, the balance of life, spending a lot of time in the desert. nature seems like a whole system of miracles.
then i discovered qawwali (sufi music of south asia) and it felt like coming home, like a connection. i also feel this connection sometimes when i am spending time in beautiful land. i know that doesn't make any sense, but that is my experience.
i believe that god is one for philosophical reasons, but i don't think it matters if he is seen as one or many.

[Balthasar21]

Personal Sermon / Testimony / Testifying can not be proven .

[جوري]

Well maybe at 61 I'm going into a second child hood. :skeleton:
But I must admit I don't have your great brilliance. :?

is this really necessary?

i was not raised in any religion and did not concern myself with god one way or the other until fairly recent years. it was really the more i learned about nature, the more in awe i felt of it. lotsa stuff like habitat niches, the balance of life, spending a lot of time in the desert. nature seems like a whole system of miracles.
then i discovered qawwali (sufi music of south asia) and it felt like coming home, like a connection. i also feel this connection sometimes when i am spending time in beautiful land. i know that doesn't make any sense, but that is my experience.
i believe that god is one for philosophical reasons, but i don't think it matters if he is seen as one or many.

thank you... that is exactly the sort of read I was looking for..

Personal Sermon / Testimony / Testifying can not be proven .

I didn't ask for proof! I asked for personal experience.
I think the topic question is quite clear?
thank you

[Woodrow]

I wonder how many people have thought about the fact that insects and flowering plants are dependent on each other. A Honey bee can not survive without flowers and the flowers a honey bee depends on can not reproduce without honey bees. The logical conclusion is both were created at the same time. I'm not a mathmatician, but I would say that odds of both events occuring at the same time are very, very remote.

Then we have lichens. A fungi and a green plant, both dependent on each other. Another symbiotic relationship. Come to think of it these symbiotic relationships are very common. Yet, what are the odds that any of these interdependant creatures would randomly occur at precisly the same time so that both it and it's partner would survive.

[Balthasar21]

is this really necessary?



thank you... that is exactly the sort of read I was looking for..



I didn't ask for proof! I asked for personal experience.
I think the topic question is quite clear?
thank you

Your right your looking for story my mistake .

[ranma1/2]

I wonder how many people have thought about the fact that insects and flowering plants are dependent on each other. A Honey bee can not survive without flowers and the flowers a honey bee depends on can not reproduce without honey bees. The logical conclusion is both were created at the same time. I'm not a mathmatician, but I would say that odds of both events occuring at the same time are very, very remote.

Then we have lichens. A fungi and a green plant, both dependent on each other. Another symbiotic relationship. Come to think of it these symbiotic relationships are very common. Yet, what are the odds that any of these interdependant creatures would randomly occur at precisly the same time so that both it and it's partner would survive.

There are explainations how these symbiotic relationships have arrived. It is important to remember that the creatures of today are not the same of those in the past. Remember evo is a combination of random mutation with selection. Its a small and gradual process.

[جوري]

Without addressing the subject of your post which btw doesn't make good scientific sense. I'll remind you that this isn't a topic about evolution! I ask you, either to respect the topic --as in address it only as relates to the subject matter (mature Theists!)-- or just simply not participate in this thread!
thank you

[Woodrow]

There are explainations how these symbiotic relationships have arrived. It is important to remember that the creatures of today are not the same of those in the past. Remember evo is a combination of random mutation with selection. Its a small and gradual process.

Now that is true. At least if scientific explanation was the only possible means of life as we know it.

However, this depends on random chance of things developing. Now let us just look at the odds of some things happening. Look at the eye of a Squid, an Eagle, a Shark and a Horse. A mollusk, a bird, a fish and a mammal. Four totaly different life forms, yet with virtually identical eyes.

With a stretch of the imagination possibly it can be shown that the eye of the Fish, Bird and Mammal were all simply the same eye that developed in the Fish and just carried over as the fish evolved. but, the squid would not fall into that same chain of biological evolution. What are the odds that the same eye structure would form in such diverse creatures on the same planet and all in the same time frame? How come among all the mollusks only the cephalopods developed mammalian type eyes? True for the life of a cephalopod it is essential, but what are the odds it can occur randomly?

Now look at the symbiotic relationships again. What are the odds of this happening routinely out of random chance? Especialy since it occurs among non-related species. Look at the tiny eye-lash mites you are born with, a nearly invisible arachnid that can only live in the eye lash follicles of humans. Yet, virtually all of us are born with them. A creature that apparantly has no biological reason to exist, yet it does and some how is even able to reproduce and pass from one generation of humans to the next. Yet, they could not exist without humans. What are the odds of that happening randomly?

I can accept random developments up to a point, but when it starts to look like the norm, I can no longer even contemplate the odds that would cause all of these "coincidences" to occur randomly on the same insignificant planet and in the same time frame.

Randomization, does not seem to be a very good explanation.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I guess for me it is the inability to believe that the universe created it self in such an AMAZING WAY out of nothing, with no planner behind it. It is just impossible. Seriously, no one would believe me if I told them my house was built by evolution or chance or whatever, so I find it even more ridiculous to think that something as amazing and complex as a human body, or even a single bacterial cell could have been created by time and chance.

Simply amazing, subhanallah!

[Keltoi]

Like snakelegs, I came to the conclusion of a higher power simply observing nature and my role in it. Like was mentioned, to me it is hard to watch a sunrise in the desert and not feel a little closer to God. It isn't really about doctrine or what religion you call yourself, although those are obviously important, but observing the world in its natural state opened the door to spirituality for me.

[Allah-creation]

i always believed in god and i dont need proofs becuase its sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo obvious. people who dont believe in god dont know how goreat his blessings are.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

My search for God was a gradual process from the age of about fifty. One of the things that helped clarify my thoughts was trying to find an answer to one question.

Does God the creator of the universe and life exist fully and totally, yes or no?

The God I excluded was the maybe or probable God; because the maybe or probable God can only exist in my mind.

The only answer I wanted to my question was yes he exists fully and totally or there is no God. If and only if God exists then I should strive to make him the greatest thing in my life, because ultimately he is my creator.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[جوري]

Thanks everyone who has shared, it is unfortunate that some left me their stories by PM, out of apprehension that others would rip into their post.

peace!

[جوري]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

My search for God was a gradual process from the age of about fifty. One of the things that helped clarify my thoughts was trying to find an answer to one question.

Does God the creator of the universe and life exist fully and totally, yes or no?

The God I excluded was the maybe or probable God; because the maybe or probable God can only exist in my mind.

The only answer I wanted to my question was yes he exists fully and totally or there is no God. If and only if God exists then I should strive to make him the greatest thing in my life, because ultimately he is my creator.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

Thanks Eric

I had a similar conversation the other day with a scholar, admittedly it was very long, and I wish I could share it as he stated it, because I thought it brilliant. He is also an engineer, and just arrived to G-D by process of elimination I have never seen anyone do it quite that way. He can take anything even a lemon tree and keep getting to the root of it to make his point. He went through the self, "Energy", the universe as a whole, limitations on each. Things in the physical world, information that we have in memory to rely on, I thought it was very impressive.
I often find that each one bases his belief on his field and area of interest, I have known a ship's captain, who often comes to get his medication from my sister's pharmacy to engage in a lively topic about the constellations and religion. I am very attracted to philosophy, philosophy in science, and philosophy in religion.. was hoping I'd get quite a few stories here, but will be happy with the few I have already read.
thanks again!

[snakelegs]

just happened to see this last night. it may be of interest to some. i found it interesting because i like the questions sheldrake raised. (i like questions).
rupert sheldrake is somewhat regarded as a heretic in the science world.
anyway, i found it quite fascinating. among other things, he says that DNA does not account for everything - such as form. the same DNA will be found in any part of a plant for example, and yet some manifests as petals, some as leaves etc etc.
for those who think music is haram - be warned that there is some music in the video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...01945812&q=BBC

[vpb]

for those who think music is haram - be warned that there is some music in the video.

I appriciate your respect :)

[جوري]

That is really excellent, I just wrote something vaguely similar to this on the health and science section yesterday about "form", and "instincts", not just a series of protein moieties... he might be considered a "heretic" but I really find many scientists share his views. Many Scientists become devoutly religious or at low small denominator "spiritual"... Genes are simply the alphabet of science!

[rav]

I am asking about what had led you to believe in G-D!

Shalom Eleichem,

What has led me to be so certain of G-d's existance? The leg of an ant. The eye. To be more specific: Everything in nature. If in the wilderness you find one stone perched atop two, you are inclined to believe this to be the work of an intellegent being. But when you find a thousand stones in a bottom row, and each successive upper row is diminished by one, until the apex where a single stone is perched, then only a madman admits the possibility of chance. Yet everything in the universe, organic and inorganic, is much more complicated than the pile of stones.

If only a single leaf was found in the world, it would constitute irrefutable proof of an Infinite Intellegence, by reason of its amazing rib-structure, conduits which conduct the fluid bearing the various materials in thousands of roads and by-ways, and its numerous tiny but marvelously efficient chemical laboratories. Here is more engineering than a dozen George Washington bridges, and more chemistry apparatus than in all the Du Pont plants put together. But the world is full of billions of such complex and cunningly designed natural objects. Every one of these objects in the loudest tone proclaims that an enormous Intellegence has planned it.

One hair of a cat contains more cunning planning than an entire page of writing, yet no one would dare claim a page of writing could be formed by accidental means such as an ink spill. The cat hair stands rooted in a tiny well of oil, and its scales are symetrically arranged tapering towards the top, a veritable feat of construction and purposeful planning. It is of flexible material, it keeps out the cold and keeps the warmth in the body, it is self oiling, it can be renewed from its roots, it is water-resistant, it shields the skin against blows of abrasions, and in many cases supplies protective coloration. Thus one hair speaks with unmistakable clarity of the vast Wisdom which planned it.

The cat has eyes especially contsructed for night vision. Its whiskers enhance the function of smelling. It poseeses sharp daggers, of tough horn, which can be retracted and kept out of way when not in use; else they would make the animals footsteps heard by its prey. This is obviously an animals constructed for the purpose of destroying mice.

It is a clean creature, which performs all body functions secretly, and cleans its fur by tounge washing, as befits a member of the household.

A tree takes soil, sunlight, and water, combines them all and produces an apple, made out of those ingredients. How does it know how to do this? Not a single scientist in the world can do it. Give him dirt, water and sunlight and ask him to make an apple. Wont happen.

So how does the tree know how to do it? Who "programmed" the tree with this wisdom? Every leaf on a tree has one shiny side and one dull side. the shiny side "catches" the sunlight and uses it for the tree's purpose. The dull side does not have sun-catching apparatus. In every tree in the world, every leaf grows with the shiny side up, cuz that’s where the sun is. How did the tree "know" that the sun is up? And that it should put the sun-catching apparatus on the top of the leaf? And never on the bottom?

I could go on literally forever. Every single cell in a tree - and every thing else in the world - contains so much wisdom and shows awareness of everything else in the world. Who "programmed" these mega-computers? Even a plant growing totally in the dark will have the shiny side up. But that’s not the point. The point is, how does the leaf "sense" that the sun is "up"? And that it needs the sun? And that its response, in order to survive, is to put the shiny stuff in a position to catch the sun? Maybe it needs shade not sun? Maybe it should "sense" the shade and reverse its leaves?

Obviously, the tree has been "programmed" to "know" all this stuff. Question: Who taught the tree all this knowledge?

Let us make it multiple choice. This is either (1.) accident, or (2.) intelligence. There is no third alternative.

The above are a few of the infinite miracles of nature. The evidence of G-d is found in his creations. The truth is found in His word. However, I will keep my post to simply "Why do you believe in G-d" and I will not continue, onto why I believe in Judaism since it would only drive this thread off topic, lead to debate in which Judaism will be slandered and finally what would it accomplish, since Judaism doesn't need to "save" non-Jews?

I eagerly wish to read other views on this topic.

Peace. :-)

[جوري]

^^^ that is one of the few best I have read, and thank you for sharing.. reps for you =)

[Woodrow]

Rav, I admit you have made a very convincing point. Very beautifully worded.

[جوري]

I just wanted to add, that I certainly had/have no intention of bringing a "which is the right religion debate" or any form of strife into this, I think this is a step further up from where we are-- here I wish to have it confined to a philosophical debate of why G-D? .. I wanted to keep it pure and personal, a product of self reflection. I really believe that most of us, have at some point questioned whether or not there is a G-D, and I just wanted everyone's distilled version of their life long search.
Thank you again all, for keeping it on a level.

peace!

[Abu yahya]

:sl:

I used to be a swat in primary school lol and by the age of a bout 10 I'd herd of evolution theory and that it was scientific. I, at the time believing science was the ultimate truth and religion was backward (although not expressing it of course!), believed that therefore evolution must be the death blow to religion, and I just took the T.V's word in telling me it was scientific (U're easily convinced as a child lol, one documentary is enough). Anyway I still wasn't sure if I believed or not, perhaps because my fitrah wouldnt accept it as I was so young.

Then one day everything changed. It was in the summer holidays between primary and high school (age 11). I was bored one day so I went into my brother's room as he was at work. At that time my brother was getting da'wah from some other brothers and he has just started practising recently so he had some islamic books for beginners in his room. Anyway, I went in and by chance I picked up a book whose title and author I remember till this day, even though I never saw it again for 5 years, "The Qur'aan and Modern Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille" . It changed my whole life, to me it was clear proof that the Qur'aan was the word of Allah, and that Islaam was the religion of God.

In the next Summer I attended an islamic conference and the speaker spoke about how we can't have been created from nothing, and we can't have created ourselves, and the only other possibility is that God created us. This only further strengthened my belief in the existance of God.

I was only young, so I never had the will power to start practising properly. But over the next few months I wanted to learn more, so what I used to do is read some of my bro's books before I went to sleep. I remember reading bits from the pamphlet "The three fundamentals followed by the four rules" of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhaab (r), before sleeping (alone in my room-it was real sukoon masha'Allaah, especially doing it at such a young age).

Anyway, I don't wanna go into any other details, as this is how I started to believe in God. But over the years my belief has strengthened more and more as a result of Allah answering my prayers when I was in real difficulty, and feeling the sweetness of eemaan.

:w:

[NoName55]

Bismillah rahman rahim
Salaam Alaikum

I wanted to post here, but am embarrassed to admit that could not put it into words as to why I believed in God (for I have been a Muslim from day zero or 1 and believed in His existance ever since I could remember)

Any how I was asked to post here so I read the thread again and thought that if I wanted to put it in to words it would be from the post #22 by Br. Rav that I would copy almost word for word

Ma'asalaama

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I probably should not be responding in this thread as I would hardly qualify as a mature thiest. The origins of my theism are rooted in my childhood. I was raised both to question everything, and at the same time by parents who did believe. In general I just adopted the views of others that I was exposed to as a child. It wasn't until I was older that I asked many questions about the existence of God, the origins of life, and other such questions and came to some sort of thesis of my own. But to think that I have ever fully shaken the beliefs of my childhood I know better. Those childhood beliefs framed the very constructs of the questions I would eventually ask, and for which I continue to seek answers.

[Dagless]

1) As a child: My Momma and Daddy told so.
2) As an adult: A first cause makes sense to me.

Don't listen to them dude, I may not be a mature theist either but I found this profound.

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I cannot remember any time in my life when I did not believe or even questioned whether God existed and cared about me. My parents’ example and participating in the Christian rituals in my community served to reinforce my belief in a loving and just God. When I was 14 years old, I realized that my parents’ and Grandparents’ faith was not my faith. They had a relationship with God, but I had the ritual and tradition.

The ritual and tradition was necessary for it cultivated a desire within me to do what was right and not to do what was wrong (although my desires were not always reflected in my actions). However, I did not have an Abrahamic relationship with God. I did not know God as a friend. When I was 14, I acknowledged what was inhibiting such a relationship and surrendered my life, including my assets and plans for the future to God, and He became my Heavenly Father.

After walking with Him for over about 28 years, I know that there is a God. I am more certain of this fact than I am that I am the son of my parents – although I am certain of that too. The scriptures note:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

So it seems that I came to know because I believed - strange but true.

Best regards,
Grenville

[Woodrow]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I cannot remember any time in my life when I did not believe or even questioned whether God existed and cared about me. My parents’ example and participating in the Christian rituals in my community served to reinforce my belief in a loving and just God. When I was 14 years old, I realized that my parents’ and Grandparents’ faith was not my faith. They had a relationship with God, but I had the ritual and tradition.

The ritual and tradition was necessary for it cultivated a desire within me to do what was right and not to do what was wrong (although my desires were not always reflected in my actions). However, I did not have an Abrahamic relationship with God. I did not know God as a friend. When I was 14, I acknowledged what was inhibiting such a relationship and surrendered my life, including my assets and plans for the future to God, and He became my Heavenly Father.

After walking with Him for over about 28 years, I know that there is a God. I am more certain of this fact than I am that I am the son of my parents – although I am certain of that too. The scriptures note:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

So it seems that I came to know because I believed - strange but true.

Best regards,
Grenville

Peace,

Not strange at all. A faith that comes from a "knowing" seems to be the deepest faith. I can understand the difficulty to put it into words. It is like when I say that when I reverted to Islam it was with a "Knowing" that I had always been Muslim and just did not know how to practice Islam.

Perhaps this feeling and sense of "knowing" is what guides us to seek a path to serve God(swt). I know our athiest members probably have some excellent scientifec reason as to why we had that feelign. But, I believe it is a genuine feeling and knowing of the presence of God(swt) and that the only explainable source for that feeling is God(swt) himself.

I doubt that anyone who has never succumbed to that feeling can understand what is meant by it, as it does not make any logical sense and does not seem to be of any biological use. I doubt very much that the most intelligent Chimpanzees would gain biologically by such a feeling, in fact it would probably destroy any species if it was an evolutionary development.

[MustafaMc]

Shalom Eleichem,

What has led me to be so certain of G-d's existance? The leg of an ant. The eye. To be more specific: Everything in nature. .....

I agree with others that this post was most eloquently written.

I can't say what led me to initially believe in God, because I can't remember ever not believing in Him. However, I can say why I believe now. My university studies in biology and genetics leads my mind to believe in a Creator. The fact that a single microscopic sperm from my father united with a single egg from my mother to form a zygote that ultimately developed into me is just too incredibly amazing for me to believe that even a single human being could ever happen by chance mutations and natural selection. That every cell in my body originated from that original union of sperm and egg with all of the information (nuclear DNA) and basic building blocks (organelles, mitochondria, etc) already assembled in one tiny package points to a Higher Power.

Others can flesh out the details of this process better, but that is why I believe......

[MustafaMc]

Why did you even make this comment?

However, I will keep my post to simply "Why do you believe in G-d" and I will not continue, onto why I believe in Judaism since it would only drive this thread off topic, lead to debate in which Judaism will be slandered and finally what would it accomplish, since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?

I eagerly wish to read other views on this topic.

Peace. :-)

What do you mean by "since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?"? I think you actually meant to say "doesn't need" instead of "does need".

[rav]

Why did you even make this comment?
What do you mean by "since Judaism does need to "save" non-Jews?"? I think you actually meant to say "doesn't need" instead of "does need".

Yes, my bad. I meant "doesn't" need to. I'll edit it. I was basically saying that although we all may believe something different, there is no need on my part to "spew" which religion has obtained "truth".

[جوري]

I agree with others that this post was most eloquently written.

I can't say what led me to initially believe in God, because I can't remember ever not believing in Him. However, I can say why I believe now. My university studies in biology and genetics leads my mind to believe in a Creator. The fact that a single microscopic sperm from my father united with a single egg from my mother to form a zygote that ultimately developed into me is just too incredibly amazing for me to believe that even a single human being could ever happen by chance mutations and natural selection. That every cell in my body originated from that original union of sperm and egg with all of the information (nuclear DNA) and basic building blocks (organelles, mitochondria, etc) already assembled in one tiny package points to a Higher Power.

Others can flesh out the details of this process better, but that is why I believe......

Sobhan Allah--Yes, it is amazing, your parents donated two cells, but it was G-D that gave you and the rest of us life. Every cell in your body carries the same genetic material, yet you have a beta cell expresses only Insulin, while a fibroblast expresses only collagen, oligodendrocytes coating the axons of the nerves; allowing efficient conduction of nerve impulses, an astrocyte supports the nervous tissue and provides insulation for neurons while a meissner's corpuscle are especially sensitive to light touch, a Kupffer cells recycles old red blood cells that no longer are functional. A baby born with brown fat not found in adults to maintain its body temperature. To every organ to every cell a function, then we step outside our body and look at nature and again to each a purpose and a reason, How does every cell know of its purpose? when they all carry the entire library of genetic information, why not be haphazard & miss their purpose? why not do as they please? yet, they work around the clock in harmony-- How do they know of form and will or symbiosis?
Yet they exclaim "science disproves G-D's existence" How can science be anything but a testament to his existence?
Sob7anak rabbi 3ama yasifoon!
:w:

[ranma1/2]

Without addressing the subject of your post which btw doesn't make good scientific sense. I'll remind you that this isn't a topic about evolution! I ask you, either to respect the topic --as in address it only as relates to the subject matter (mature Theists!)-- or just simply not participate in this thread!
thank you

I do not expect you to understand good scientific sense.
I will participate whenever i see flawed logic. THank you.

[جوري]

I do not expect you to understand good scientific sense.
I will participate whenever i see flawed logic. THank you.

Your logic is comparable to a seven dollar bill! Your expectations mean crap to me... as are your attempts to save face!

[ranma1/2]

Hi Woodrow,

Now that is true. At least if scientific explanation was the only possible means of life as we know it.

However, this depends on random chance of things developing. Now let us just look at the odds of some things happening. Look at the eye of a Squid, an Eagle, a Shark and a Horse. A mollusk, a bird, a fish and a mammal. Four totaly different life forms, yet with virtually identical eyes..

This is explained under evolution. And remember evolution includes random mutation and natural selection being 2 of the main compents.

With a stretch of the imagination possibly it can be shown that the eye of the Fish, Bird and Mammal were all simply the same eye that developed in the Fish and just carried over as the fish evolved. but, the squid would not fall into that same chain of biological evolution. What are the odds that the same eye structure would form in such diverse creatures on the same planet and all in the same time frame? .

There are several explainations for how the eye evolved and none of them are needing a designer.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

How come among all the mollusks only the cephalopods developed mammalian type eyes? True for the life of a cephalopod it is essential, but what are the odds it can occur randomly?.

It is not random. Selection is a very important part of evolution.

Now look at the symbiotic relationships again. What are the odds of this happening routinely out of random chance? Especialy since it occurs among non-related species. Look at the tiny eye-lash mites you are born with, a nearly invisible arachnid that can only live in the eye lash follicles of humans. Yet, virtually all of us are born with them. A creature that apparantly has no biological reason to exist, yet it does and some how is even able to reproduce and pass from one generation of humans to the next. Yet, they could not exist without humans. What are the odds of that happening randomly?
.

These relations ships have developed over a long time through evolution.

I can accept random developments up to a point, but when it starts to look like the norm, I can no longer even contemplate the odds that would cause all of these "coincidences" to occur randomly on the same insignificant planet and in the same time frame.

Randomization, does not seem to be a very good explanation.

I always enjoy good and honest questions. I think the majority of your questioins can be answered here

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Peace

[NoName55]

I could have sworn that I saw a request in title post of thread that only believers in God (ahl al-Kitaab) were asked to share their experience of finding Him

if that is so, I would like to Know why a kafar is being allowed to ruin otherwise decent thread?

[جوري]

I could have sworn that I saw a request in title post of thread that only believers in God (ahl al-Kitaab) were asked to share their experience of finding Him

if that is so, I would like to Know why a kafar is being allowed to ruin otherwise decent thread?

Why aren't you humming in reverence of the wikipedia articles? Bros woodrow who has a couple of doctorates under his belt was ignorant that such information is in existence.
As all of us theists just fell off the turnip truck and in need of these leaders of the pack and holders of the flame; to guide our way out of this cesspool and into enlightenment.

:w:

[NoName55]

I am cofused because sister has mixed me up with someone else

I think she clicked on the wrong quote button for my post is right below the kafar post

Edit:
I think I got it now (there was no mistake in quoting me) :)

wasalam alaikum

[Grace Seeker]

Well, earlier, I said that my thinking has no doubt been influenced by my childhood and that I was raised by believers, and so this was also no doubt what was the initial impetus to my present faith.

However, as I matured from childhood to adulthood, I would be influenced by more and more forces outside of my parents and the faith they thought they were raising me in. I say thought they were raising me in, because quite simply I didn't really care. I heard the stories, but I didn't bother to listen. Who I was listening to where my teachers at school. Later I read heavily the works of David Quammen (sp?) and Stephen J. Gould in the field of natural history, and I also enjoyed learning about particle phsyics and in time string theory. Each new fact made me hungry for more.

But I also had to laugh at much of what I read. Evolutionary scientists who would anthromorphisize their own theories: "the male lion will kill the cubs of any other male lion should he get the chance because he desires for the female to come into heat thus giving him a better chance to pass on more of his own genes." Sure that is what he instinctually does and it produces that result. But to say that the male lion is actually desiring to pass on his own genes, and that he considers the odds. Natural selection is natural, it isn't something that species desire, consider options, choose a plan or action, and then execute. It merely is what it is and the assignment of motive is purely a human emotion misplaced on the creatures we observe by transference.

I also realized that if evolution is completely accidental. Then not only is their no motive for the lion, he is just reacting, but there is not purpose in it either. Why is it important for species to survive? It isn't. Perhaps the individual creature values his or her own life for all struggle to survive when our lives are threatened. But for what reason? Again, it is all part of the hardwiring just like it is for the male lion to kill another male's cubs. And the idea of intrinsic value to anything is again a human construct. What difference is there if atoms of carbon are animated to process oxygen or if they are staticly locked up in a diamond?

So to, whether a slug or a gazelle, they are both equally successful on in terms of evolution. For evolution is nothing more than the survival of the fittest, not the most advanced. How many species of the genus homo have there been that have died out? Obviously the earthworm was more fit to survive than our primate ancestors.

And what of us today? If we die out as a species in 100,000 years or a 100 million, what difference would that make? And in short, the answer is none, for all I learned in science is that there is no value to any of this except that which we give it ourselves. It is like seeing two flowering plants growing beside each other and cultivating one of them for our gardens and killing the other as a weed. The only real difference between them is our perception of them.

And is that not true of so many other things that we value? We fight wars with one another to preserve "our way of life". Is there any instrinsic "good" in one way of life over another? Isn't it all just choosing which weed we are going to cultivate and call a flower? In fact, are there any real values at all in the world. Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? We agree on these things as societies I suppose, but again it is all about survival. For if survival of the fittest is really the key and I can get you to keep rules that I can learn how to avoid, then I might have some slight advantage. Let me cuckold your wife and rape your children; if it serves my interests, this is all that matters.

This is all the logic behind the science, but I don't find that to be the way that people really think or believe. Time and again, I find that people everywhere have values. All people, everywhere have values. The relgious and the non-religious. Some see them as merely that which keeps society ordered, as trappings left over from supersitious beliefs of the past. But I think they have another source. I think they call us to lift our eyes beyond ourselves and to actually look for the "good".

We don't always define it well, and certainly we don't always define it the same. But everyone seems to recognize that out there beyond us, there is something that we can call "good". Again some will place that good in society, others in religion, and others still in their own personal pursuits, but well all share a seemingly innate desire for valuing some things as good and others as not good. And rather than seek that which we call not good, universally we seek that which we call good. Why is that? Why do we care so much more for the good than for the bad or indifferent? No other species pursues good the way we do. They pursue comfort, food, sex; but not good.

And in my thinking I believe that we desire good, because we are made to pursue it. It too is hardwired into us the same as the male lion is hardwired to do those things which he does. But the pursuit of the "good", that does not appear to be something that one needs in order to succeed on the evolutionary tree. So, how do we come by it? I don't think we do. I think it comes by us. That is I think it is placed in us by an outside source. It comes to us from something greater than ourselves. It comes from something greater than the elements we are composed of. It comes from something that is wholly "other" than us. And I happen to call that "other" God.

[MustafaMc]

Yet they exclaim "science disproves G-D's existence" How can science be anything but a testament to his existence?
Sob7anak rabbi 3ama yasifoon!
:w:

These things are clear as day to us believers. The more that we learn, the more it prove's Allah's existence and His creative powers. Only the most obstinate can deny these truths. All praise and thanks are due to Allah for guiding Muslims to the Truth. Glory to Allah!

[Keltoi]

I think many times humans get so wrapped up in their accomplishments, meaning technology and abundant food, that they begin to think of themselves as gods. It is arrogance that leads many people to deny a higher power in the universe. They look at cells under a microscope or put together a map of DNA and state, "look, there is no God!, we come from monkeys." It is blind arrogance in my opinion. One must humble him or herself to fully come to terms with faith.

[Woodrow]

I think many times humans get so wrapped up in their accomplishments, meaning technology and abundant food, that they begin to think of themselves as gods. It is arrogance that leads many people to deny a higher power in the universe. They look at cells under a microscope or put together a map of DNA and state, "look, there is no God!, we come from monkeys." It is blind arrogance in my opinion. One must humble him or herself to fully come to terms with faith.

Us humans just are not much for humbling ourselves. We seem to have a desire to justify a belief that we are the most advanced things in the universe. A belief in a Deity tends to hamper that thought.

That is my view as to why some people do not believe in God(swt) as to why I personaly believe, has to do with my personal life experiences.I can come to no other conclusion.